| IVOD_ID |
160709 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160709 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-28T11:06:58+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-28T11:29:56+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:22:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f76a0bd18e4ae6a74457e6b89c55315e7917adb13da21619e05bf80135cfd9e896b02f461641f995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:06:58 - 11:29:56 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長 有請彭部長李委員好 |
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17.813 |
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肥清法第71條 甲扣鴨的制度在食物上大概是形同虛設 |
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35.502 |
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就是說廢清法第71條規定主管機關依廢清法第71條第一項規定待為清除廢棄物後向醫務人求償必要費用時若醫務人不願意繳納環保機關應有權向法院申請假扣押但是在實務上你去行政法院對假扣押的審查極為嚴格然後我們很多都被駁回 |
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63.598 |
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82.249 |
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那更多的是我們連申請都不願意申請那我現在是要以高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號裁定為例為什麼要談這個是因為我們都很害怕法院的判決會變成判例法院的單一個案的判決成為判例 |
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那這個影響就很大那高雄高等行政法院112年度的這個裁定是這樣子環保局預估代為清理的費用是92746243元所以依法申請假扣押那申請人雖然是在高雄高等行政法院但申請人是台南市政府環保局申請的理由包括相對人借其了 |
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116.147 |
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127.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
人為繳納預估帶旅行清理非法棄置的廢棄物的費用他沒有自己去繳錢那也沒有提出清理廢棄物的意願 嫌有隱匿或遺傳財產的可能這是地方政府申請的 寫的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
135.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
158.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
結果被法院認為市民不足而駁回解釋的是明白的明 市民不足而駁回法院是這樣看的 第一點關於廢清法第七十一條第一項環保機關必須實際執行待清理才能依照廢清法向相對人請求清理費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
158.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
180.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那由於申請人沒有提供足夠的證據去證明已經開始執行清理因此法院難以認定他們有已成立的公法上的金錢債權也就是說申請人沒有取得合法的清償權利所以沒有辦法依據此去申請假扣押 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
182.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
204.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第二個 關於行政執行法第29條第二項即便相對人沒有在期限內履行清理義務法院認為 這個可能比較大的問題在這裡申請人所提供的證據只能證明請求清理費的原因但不足以證明相對人有資產轉移或無法執行的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
207.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
213.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你可能看到他沒有交錢但你沒有要證明你現在就是可以吃苦鴨因為你沒有要證明這個人他要把他的財產轉移換言之法院不認為單純未繳納代旅行費用就足以證明相對人將來無法強制執行所以因此駁回吃苦鴨申請全台灣社會大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
230.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
232.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
高等行政法院 高雄行政法院認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
270.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
撥回扣押的申請所以我們現在我這個事情我們也跟你問過了環境部叫你們提供過去五年依廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關申請假扣押的案件你們說啊你們說這個一共主管機關申請假扣押有三件法院主席兩件撥回一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
272.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
277.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那該駁回案的金額是5億4千多萬駁回的理由是因為申請人對相對人的金錢給付債權或請求權尚未發生意思就是說你剛才不開錢 你剛才不去請你現在就要去請了 開錢 開了啊這可以吃虧啊你如果等你開錢了 請了啊你剛開始請的時候他就脫線了啦 脫線了啊事務面我們都知道 但是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
302.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
328.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
換你這樣認定 我最怕是成為判例法院都這樣講 因為現有的法律現有的法律工具看起來也的確長得很像藉其不為清除處理時 地方政府主管機關或執行機構得待為清除處理並向其上面的這些有責任的人求償清理改善及衍生之必要費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
329.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
340.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
藉其如果沒有清償者 移送強制執行所以法律工具的確就是你要清料啊 才可以去吃褲子不用說大家也遭料料保證你對這個實務面 土法不足以執行如果法律工具也有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
348.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
375.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
執行面也有問題為什麼這麼久都沒有處理過好 包委員您提到的都是重點就是我們跟那個檢警調還有一個平台其實討論的就是委員您說到的問題就是裡面的核心那目前呢我們希望修法的就是71條裡面希望說還是一樣我有看到對 我們希望這個部分能夠再加強我現在先講一下您的行政處我說喔 您到底過去五年啊等於政府去申請恰恰 您說三件嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
376.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
404.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
其實這三件裡面我剛剛講的那一件112年的這一個文號判例裁定其實你們也不放在裡面都沒有放在裡面所以柏定你們這個假扣押的案件跟數據你提供個立委的到底是怎麼算的為什麼才這個寥寥可數啊個案沒幾件然後就可以這樣子我如果看到那一件你如果不說那一件你如果不說提供的資料都不全 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
406.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
434.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
委員我請署長來回覆署長認識他三十年了我們所提供的那個資料是指找不到行為人的那個部分然後再去就是找不到行為人71條第一項沒有在管有沒有找得到行為人有行為人更好抓到了更好沒有的話也有善良管理人責任的第九大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
436.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
449.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我告訴你 我要跟你討好資料說你有去申請假扣押制五年到底有幾件你有立委的資料 說三件 立委自己去找來就一件 你就沒有列入在內啊你們提供立委的基本資料就提供不全欸我怎麼想說你們可能整個部都沒有人在管這些事情吧你現在就跟我說未來修法會處理 未來修法就可以解決了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
466.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
485.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
未來修法你們未來的修法你們要預告假扣押制度但是法院你們沒有明確的去降低市民的標準法院要求需市民義務人有日後不能或難以強制執行之餘這要怎麼舉證 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
488.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
496.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
現在範圍的判例是說他沒有跟你交集也沒有跟你提清理計劃你要怎麼證明這樣他就會脫產 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
500.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
517.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你的草案未來草案是說修正申請假扣押的時間點但沒有在法條文字中直接降低或修改市民有日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘這一個要件的證明標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
518.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
537.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那法院是否會認為,在未來他是不是會認為,你來想說,好,我換你去改改,我可以先扣押,把扣押的順序不要從這個清理完畢,把它提早到只要一發現行政送達,你都沒回覆,我就馬上給你加扣押。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
539.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
563.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你們是這樣修嘛但是這個未來法院是不是會認為說行政處分以送達他這個本身就足夠構成夾扣押的急迫性和必要性嗎這個在司法實務的見解上可能還會有問題喔而且你們是得或是應還是這個那如果法院能夠維持目前這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
564.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
589.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
比較嚴格的市民標準假扣押的執行都不會產生問題嗎你不知道報委員這個我們把你的意見因為我們現在希望說趕快匯集完了之後可以有一個預告那我們會把委員的意見看能不能趕得及把這次就把它進行修正不是因為我跟我們我再講一下根據環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
590.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
596.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
鋪自己的統計過去五年依照行政執行法第29條除了機關隊為旅行這個清理義務的義務人預估去帶旅行費用並發出繳納命令的案件一共有133件總費用金額高達79億9986萬將近80億 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
610.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
613.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那為什麼會啟動第七十一條第一項因為這個欧美丹 四月份去欧美丹顯然有足生於環境和健康風險你們才啟動的這一條七十一條第一項嘛阿不然全台灣欧美丹的地方全都霸凌啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
628.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
648.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
整個10萬個地方啦那為什麼要鎖定第71條第一項來討論因為第71條第一項啟動的條款顯然就是危害健康 危害污染土地 污染地下水土壤等等非常嚴重的 你才需要介入在這種狀況裡面你們評估啊在過去5年大家有40年要開啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
653.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
667.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
真的有來納一年薪 兩千控備者六萬四千兩百二十二元 2086-4222我的意思是說有八十億的帶旅行費用 只有0.26%的人有繳錢有99.74%是 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
674.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
675.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
想要讓政府買單那據此的話這個狀況的話這個71條第一項我要講現行的現有的法律是這個追償的系統是不好的法律工具有問題失效的不能執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
692.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
704.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
在條法律 有立跟不立一樣有這條法律跟不這條法律一樣這個顯然有兩個問題嘛第一個 法律工具本身有問題第二個 執行面有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
705.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
722.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那顯然這兩個問題都存在顯然這兩個問題都存在而且這麼多年來你現在要修廢清法才說要處理可是在之前就法律工具真的完全這麼不足嗎我們都不要主動去找司法院處理過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
724.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
744.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那我現在一直要講判例的原因是因為高雄高等行政法院112年度全治第21號的裁定法院認為環保機關必須實際代為清除後使得依廢清法第71條第一項向鄉對人求償必要的費用而且他有示明喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
745.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
759.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
他要求要4名義務人員日後不能強制執行或甚難執行之餘那這種舉證標準幾乎都讓環保機關無法實際運用假扣押制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
761.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
776.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那從實際狀況的執行面來看醫護人根本只要擺爛不繳納反正就交給政府來收拾那從另外一個角度來看行政執行法的代旅行程序或是廢清法第71條第一項的求償這個如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
782.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
801.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
有效的話 如果有效的話 那麼廢清法根本不用設置假扣押的這個機制 所以其實是無效的就是說現有的法律工具71條的這個可以假扣押 或者是行政執行法的代理型程序通通法律工具都無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
802.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
805.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那我要再講一個實務面 這個部長最近不法集團在那個碼頭山 高雄的碼頭山自然生態保育區棄置失業費期務一案那檢察官初步的估計 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
820.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
827.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
遷運這個廢棄物的費用大概要超過一億肇事的七名逃犯喔遷運的費用幾億但是抓到了抓到了肇事 這個非法肇事的這些涉嫌人喔幾萬九百 你知道嗎八萬 七萬 五萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
839.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
855.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
交保的金額跟清理費用相比為不足道然後這些背後 只是還有後面的指示集團所以他們很容易脫產 大家都知道沒有辦法假扣押 然後沒有辦法追回這個清理的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
857.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
883.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面 環境部在你說要修法之前修法的法律工具 我其實覺得這樣夠嗎 我是有一個問號但是在這個之前 比如說碼頭山這個案子 你有沒有具體的對策因為碼頭山那個是屬於 要不要回答一下屬於什麼 這個都地方政府要去執行的 跟我們中央都無關 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
884.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
912.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
署長很簡單,一定這樣說就好了那都地方政府要去做,跟我無關的報告委員,那個碼頭山那個齁,應該是犯罪所得是可以扣押得到的,我們從那裡去做處理啦你說什麼所?犯罪所得犯罪所得?對,就是他的不法立得那個部分不法立得,因為貴賓公司很大件的嗎?這個還要再去清查一下你若不吃扣押,脫產了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
914.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
918.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
破產了啦 公司改善了啦 再重新立一間新公司就好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
919.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
944.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你們在這裡跟立委講的 你有沒有想過 你說這麼幼稚的回答沒聽到這個回答 這麼幼稚你現在的動作 你不是幼稚園的學生喔你當成民主會是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當成外環委員會的委員是笨蛋還是白癡嗎你當立法院的立委 中華民國立法院的立委都是笨蛋還是白癡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
946.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
969.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
你跟我說這是生肖欸保證你覺得這個會打生肖欸我就是希望說這個可以如何才可以更好啦那委員的提的建議你都這樣說你都說虛的沒有啦沒有啦這個現在其實希望修正的希望委員的意見我們可以再進來我就跟你講啦這個是立法這個是環境部最核心的業務不是去談 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
972.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
997.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
節能減碳 碳費 碳稅不是剛剛講的那個綠能不是為什麼會有這種非法氣質最源頭就是你們管理的不好你們信業廢棄物的管理就是很爛才會有廢物這個廢棄物毀壞的才會有污染土地 污染地下水上游的管理就出問題了才會有這種小小四處在外面亂丟 亂氣質 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1000.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1002.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以你的善有全部都沒有管好耶你的輸定就在那裡,是非管理都出很多問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1010.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1030.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
然後在問你問到這個東西你又在這裡虛以為疑過去五年 主管機關對於未履行清理義務的義務人須預估待履行費用並依行政執行法發出繳納命令的總案件數是133依據廢清法第七十一條第一項主管機關待會清除或處理廢棄物並向清理義務人求償費用的案件總共53件133然後這個有去 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1041.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1066.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
提出球場費用的只有53那133只有53去提出要球場只有三件去申請假扣押請問部長你們有沒有研究一下主管機關為什麼沒有積極的申請假扣押的原因是什麼為什麼讓違規者有機會轉移資產為什麼老是幫政府要幫這一種犯罪的人在那裡擦屁股呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1068.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1073.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
或是為盡善良管理人責任的人在那裡插屁股呢在環境保護跟公帑帶清除之間要怎麼取得平衡啊擋不擋的抗人民支開這個緊急忽然之餘,我們今天先去清澳有些地方沒有錢啊,中間有沒有變價錢,有沒有變得高沒有啦,中間有沒有變價錢啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1093.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1117.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那如果危害健康和環境之餘的怎麼辦?危害健康和環境之餘的,就跟他斷了啊,繼續斷了啊所以面臨一個這麼嚴重的問題,違規棄置非棄物的人查到的時候,就像剛才蘇丁說的,炸就脫蒜了,還要再把我凍著可以追回不法所得,不法利得,騙笑欸,政府根本追不回來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1118.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1141.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
而且司法機關的審查速度也沒有辦法及時配合等到法律程序跑完違規者早就資產轉移不要講等到法律程序啦你們自己內部還在這樣子跟立委講話政府乾瞪眼 立委在那裡說到有錢沒拿 也是沒好最後都是全民買單 或是全民給放在那因為地方政府不編列這個預算 擺爛因為球場也球場不回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1146.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1158.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以政府的預算這麼有限面對這些非法棄置的問題所以如果沒有立即危害或是到健康或是公共這個環境甚至有立即危害你也是不會做啦這樣狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1163.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1170.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以你們提供的資料 到今年2月20日為止 非法棄置的列管案件1130件解除列管的690件 持續列管的440件 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1179.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1184.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個氣質的長殖類型多樣 廢棄物的種類數量長殖位置 清理成本不一 連平均清理成本都算不出來這樣子下去喔 大家有用看用歐北豆 沒要緊 釀沒中 釀中也太善 沒要緊它會變成破窗效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1203.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1217.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
大家別的違規則看到政府不處理可以更肆無忌憚制度面有破洞 抓不到 靠不到問題越來越嚴重好 我知道你一直看我啦 我把時間最後講一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1219.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1241.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們幫這些違規的人插屁股 是在圖利私人 可是不處理的話也不行那監察院有對你們做幾個建議啊監察院調查報告有建議說 刻以行則啊沒有這個依法提供 或是沒有提交處理計畫書或清理廢棄物 直接刻以行則啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1242.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1269.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
第二個假扣押制度的改革明確的降低假扣押的舉證標準或規定特定情況下可推定有假扣押原因存在以增加環保機關保全球場權利的可能性那你們提出的版本是不是就足以構成這樣的一個條件到時候我們可以來看看但是還有一個比照土屋法修法所講土屋法當初就在講了你不要讓我抓到 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1271.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1293.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
抓到的時候 污染者如果是公司 不是公司解散了就好了公司的負責人主要股東或者是連間接控制公司的投資人都要負擔清理費用永遠跑不掉負最終的清理責任公司倒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1294.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1304.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
污染責任還是存在普法就說即使企業因為合併分割或其他方式消失負責任股東仍然要付清理費 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1306.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1319.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
違規不繳清理費 還可以加收滯納金和罰款讀法第43條 強制規定汙染者不繳清理費 除了收0.5%每天喔0.5%的滯納金 超過30天還要罰款20到100萬來 交換下去所以林費清罰 跟剛才說的一個假扣押 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1332.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1335.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
畢竟我剛才說這有道理嗎 比照圖無法公司改善主要的投資者負責人大股東都負連帶永遠的最終的清理責任 跑不掉沒得六次納金阿哥吃苦鴨 阿哥罰款連續罰 一直罰罰到1%這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1360.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1374.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
委員你的建議非常好啦你們的版本都沒有這監察院調查報告也建議我會把委員的建議把它放在我們預告的法規裡面好 那就要修正一下喔好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林淑芬委員發言 |