| IVOD_ID |
160625 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160625 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-23-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-24T09:49:28+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-24T10:02:49+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:21 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e56a4b06973b7c822adc7e49bcbcbb61fdc2be5dfb0591b1bfeb84b7fcc79dab935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蔡其昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:49:28 - 10:02:49 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。
【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】） |
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委員好 |
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部長好部長針對今天主席安排要來審法案本席也有提了修正案的版本修了好幾條其他我想跟行政院大同小異的我們就不談其中第四條本席的版本提到政府應該提供資源協助民間處理因應及防範知通安全威脅事件 |
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36.765 |
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45.397 |
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部長你有注意到本席的版本嗎部裡面有沒有什麼看法對於本席這個條文的提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
46.465 |
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73.798 |
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我們現在有這個治安本來就是需要公司協力所以我們現在是有那個就像TW社這樣一個機制讓通報協助來處理一些治安的事件那所以這個我想委員的提的版本跟我們未來要推動的應該是相同我想概念上你們不會反對但本席為什麼要加進去我希望讓你們有法源的基礎為什麼我要這樣提呢 |
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75.607 |
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101.299 |
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部長你看過監察院對有一個調查報告在公告時間是113年的1月18號主要的暗由就是針對這個民間企業及個人資料外洩上網被兜售的事件這裡面包括雄獅旅行社、中華航空、合運租車等等其他這個企業那這個被盜的數目各自都是百萬筆、數百萬筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
103.922 |
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129.318 |
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那本席認為這個大型的這種事件危害到大型公共事務或者是各自大量的這個洩漏本席認為這樣的事件不可以跟一般民間譬如說單一的一個什麼貿易公司啦一個什麼民間的企業他的電腦被害或者他幾個客戶的資料被偷我認為這個不可以用相同的角度來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
130.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
159.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
就像你們這次的修法裡面為什麼你會針對大型這種所謂不是大型這種政府所謂的關鍵性的這些設施啊譬如說過去培洛西議長來台灣訪問我們的這些政府公部門這種電子屏幕上面出現電子螢幕上面出現這個被害的然後有一些攻擊台灣的文字或者攻擊台美關係的文字的出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
160.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
168.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那這個東西你們這一次裡面認為這個要處理嗎沒有錯嗎沒關係如果有要代替回答我也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
169.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
193.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那個這個主要是因為他用了一個產品就危害國家自動安全產品所以才產生這些事情所以這個從危害國家自動安全產品裡面可以做限制不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是對這種大型的公司尤其很多各自的公司的確就是要加強管理那我剛剛講就是說這個當然我們特定會公務機關這個定義這個講就是說其實各事業目的主要機關他們可以去要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
194.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
206.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
比如說像這個像Iron可能就交通部可以就是說類似這種東西被要求的單位他有特殊的那個資料或特殊的服務那當然是可以被要求納入這個我們的特殊費工機關來特別去監管對你們從產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
211.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
230.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
產品端這個第十條第十八條都是企圖從產品端來限制那我的意思產品端限制我等一下再跟你討論我也很支持但是除了產品端的限制如果他產品沒有問題他可能買的就是美國產品他不是買一些奇奇怪怪包括中國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
231.371 |
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260.764 |
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然後呢結果他被害以至於他的舉個例子譬如說現在大型的入口有大型的廣告看板電子看板這個其實越來越多公司規模越來越大那在特定的時間點我駭入他然後就直接把我要的政治訴求譬如說兩岸有任何問題的時候他直接把政治訴求就打在那個台灣重要入口的電子屏幕上面那 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
262.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
275.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
產品沒有問題就你在產品端做審核查核沒有問題他本來就產品是美國製啊再來他是大型企業他可能一時被害他沒辦法處理那 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
276.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
293.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
政府這時候應該要協助吧部長你認為對嘛所以我的意思是說給你們一個法源讓你們在面對這種大型攻擊或者是竊取系統性的數量規模極大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
294.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
316.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你們可以因應有法律條文裡面政府要來提供資源協助民間處理然後防範這種安全威脅 資通安全的威脅事件所以部長我訂這一條你知道我的用心良苦讓你們有知道說我們其實可以引用這一條那這一條規範裡面到底什麼範圍是你們要處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
316.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
324.798 |
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我想就授權應該你們來授權給你們來去規範出說到底哪一些部分因為這個其實影響很大如果我們只界定在 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
326.294 |
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350.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
政府只在於關注那些所謂基礎設施啊關鍵性設施啊我認為那個遠遠不足對國家安全的防護在自動安全的防護上面我認為遠遠不足所以本席認為應該要來來制定這一條這個是一個很重要的原因那第二個啊我們對於我剛剛講過我們現我們在產品端上面啊我們現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
351.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
375.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
不只中國啦反正只要我們認為這個有安全疑慮威脅的就不可以嘛對不對那我要請跟部長討論一下就是現在的東西越來越多因為隨著科技的發展越來東西越來越多譬如說我隨便舉一個例子那個自動販賣機啊當它有Internet的功能的時候它上面也有螢幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
377.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
400.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
它上面也可以連結上網嘛因為它的支付現在透過雲端不是我們傳統的自動販賣機投錢按下去完全機械原理然後領錢領出飲料現在的自動販賣機不是這樣那我相信越來會越複雜所以自動販賣機它是不是資訊通訊產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
403.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
427.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
只要連網都算我認為以後會越來越多啦那個保溫杯也可以以後也會啊因為它可以直接連網然後記錄你每天喝多少水然後你什麼時候會去裝水你每次都裝多少CC然後可以辨別出你這是水還是茶還是可樂還是什麼都可能嘛都有可能那這些只要一連網它也是保溫杯也算是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
429.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
446.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
資訊通訊產品所以這個範圍你們要去界定啦因為現在我們想像裡面不可以只界定在手機啊平板啊電腦啊不是這個這些概念所以部長你現在這個這瞭解對書發部要去瞭解好那最後一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
448.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
475.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
最近有一個新聞我想大家也都注意到這個前臉書的總監指控中國介入Meta審查台港用戶的發文部長你有注意到這個新聞我先不去論說介入這個事實到底真相為何因為現在有一點各說各話那我們就靜待它的發展但本席對一點我覺得很有必要拿出來探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
476.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
492.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個多數很多的團體這裡面藍藍綠綠都有不斷的我們會接到接收到陳情或者抗議抗議什麼抗議有一些文章啊為什麼會在這個Meta的這個社群平台臉書上面就消失 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
493.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
515.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那交涉之後他們可能會去詢問Meta公司說為什麼我的文章會消失但正常的程序是他們得不到任何的回應或者就算有回應都不是什麼正面回答你的問題都是牽扯其他或者一個簡單他們什麼內部的什麼規定或者內部的什麼一個原則他大概就簡單回答你這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
517.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
534.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那本席是覺得是這樣每一個公司企業經營他有他內部的一些規定規章本席沒有意見但本席認為這種規定規章應該要公開透明可被檢驗這個檢驗包括使用者本身包括政府本身所以如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
536.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
553.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
訴發部認為這件事情你們現在做不到原因是什麼如果你們覺得該做他該修法他就應該被修法哪有可能他把任何一個敵人滲透正是因為他不需要說明他覺得不爽他就把你刪 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
554.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
569.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
是不是這樣部長你懂我的意思嗎那換言之這裡面我講的不一定是什麼藍綠喔每一個色彩政黨都有可能被刪只要看他高不高興那他也不需要回答你啊他就跟你講說我們的公司就是可以刪 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
571.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
598.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以Meta的審核機制的確是不是很透明那我們也在美國因為這個不透明所以連美國國會參議員也在做聽證所以我們也是看聽證的結果那再跟Meta我們會跟Meta交涉就是說這個第一個要透明化那這個要下架應該要讓民眾了解所以我想這個我們會持續關注部長我的意思剛剛你沒有聽懂我的意思就是說不要再溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
600.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
605.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們現在講任性在國防在安全上面的任性台灣我們應該主動的把這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
607.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
632.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們就法令嘛 全世界 我們是 台灣是民主法治的國家 美國也是但台灣的國情跟美國不一樣嘛美國所面臨的即刻性的威脅 並不 台灣比他們強大 危險太多啊就我們的那個急迫性比他強化 強太多所以我們面對 民主自由沒有關係 我用法治的角度我直接速發布 認為你就是要揭露嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
633.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
656.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我就直接告訴你指引是什麼我就直接公布這個叫規則甚至如果要修法立法院我們來支持我想大家都會支持啊因為你為什麼把人家刪文你應該要有一套事先你公布什麼沒有關係你至少讓我知道所以你們就是挺共的所以只要罵到共產黨就一定刪除那我至少知道我就不用你的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
657.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
680.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你都不告訴我表面上你又裝的一副很民主很自由言論開放但事實上你刪了什麼你為什麼要刪這個你背後是不是有這個共匪的勢力在後面指導我怎麼會知道呢我這樣講你你也不高興嘛因為你覺得你沒有嘛那你沒有你要刪人家的文你又沒有一個指導一個原則一個告訴你我的遊戲規則是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
683.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
712.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個才是問題的所在啊所以你再去跟他溝通因為我每次在這裡講Meta你都說要去喝咖啡啦對不對從詐騙一路到今天都是這樣子嘛那本席一直認為這個不可行啦你要喝你還是可以喝但沒有效果嘛你看我們最後還不是不斷的在立法院修法給你武器他也是美國公司嘛守法很重要啊你到人家落到每一個國家落地就要遵守那個國家的法令嘛所以中華民國的法令是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
713.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
731.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我們應該速發部要有一些想法不可以每天讓這些我們的消費者在使用Meta的這些產品然後整天就在客訴整天就在跟立法院立法委員陳情整天就在媒體上在其他的平台上面去幹繳這個事情所以我是覺得這個很奇怪啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
732.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
760.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以我今天無意我也不知道Meta它的準則是什麼我認為公開透明讓大家可檢驗我認為這是一個基本的common sense這也是一個基本的要求這不是什麼對而且也不是針對它全部的社群平台我們中華民國你要落地在這裡我就是要告訴你我們的法規就是這樣子你必須每一個社群平台都可被檢驗我要確保你後面不是共產黨你不是要來消滅中華民國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
761.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
775.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好不好部長那個委員這個這瞭解那我剛剛特別強調因為現在美國參與在做聽證會這個META這個他剛剛講這個他這對內容審核的機制希望美國政府會強迫他公開那我們會知道怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
776.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
797.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
對啦我的意思是說不用什麼事都等美國啦你也可以先做啦就是我的意思就是叫他公佈審查一個公開透明任何的任何台灣在使用的這些平台你就公佈嘛不只我針對我不會針對一家公司以後哪一家公司都一樣嘛我的要求只是這個樣子嘛好不好 |