| IVOD_ID |
160623 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160623 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-23-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-24T09:28:29+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-24T09:39:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5e1f7c3e1748c6e5c450eb9b6712e7c5dc7e49bcbcbb61fdc2be5dfb0591b1bf7e067b1efe2647ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪孟楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:28:29 - 09:39:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、行政院函請審議、二、委員沈伯洋等17人、三、委員葛如鈞等21人、四、委員賴瑞隆等17人、五、委員黃捷等17人、六、委員林宜瑾等18人、七、委員陳素月等24人、八、委員林俊憲等16人、九、委員羅美玲等21人、十、委員吳思瑤等17人、十一、台灣民眾黨黨團、十二、委員邱若華等17人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案、十三、委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案及十四、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。
【僅進行詢答及宣讀提案條文】） |
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好 主席謝謝 麻煩請黃部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
10.117 |
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好 部長好 治安法的修法我想朝野大家都有正向的回應跟版本那就是代表是說對國家安全來講我們責無旁貸但有幾個部分我想還是要跟你進一步的就教也落實說到底我們治安法修法之後能不能真的達成我們訴發部所要達到的一個目的所以首先我們看到是說現在的一個未來的集合以及公務機關的這些集合等等都會由我們治安署這邊來負責對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
40.372 |
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50.113 |
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那治安署的這個集合因為所有公務機關不管是特定的非公務機關或是公務機關都要來負責的話那這樣子我們的人力夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
51.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
75.516 |
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我們治安署當然就是說這方面目前我們是有每一年至少集合40個單位40個單位至少40個單位那當然未來但現在納入來之後是全部的公務機關都要所有的我們現在A級機關如果連飛特定飛公務機關加起來應該有90個單位90個單位每年大概96個單位嘛96個單位所以我們當然就只要等於是一倍多的業務量 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
77.258 |
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102.634 |
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我看到你們第32條還講是說得委託其他公務機關來辦理國家自通安全防護的演練跟集合所以你們未來還會再委託出去因為中央事業目的主管機關他們對他們自己下面比如說像台電油水電這些公司應該像經濟部就會去那本席要問的問題是說那這些人員有可能他是最了解整個國家公務機關的這些資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
104.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
131.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
安全機密的部分那他們的查核就相對重要了也是要有特殊查核對不對也是要有特殊查核好我們來看一下現在特殊查核是有相關規定的我找到下一頁仁氏行政總署他也在去年的12月的時候又再把特殊查核的職務依然表再秀出來那其中本席看到來上頁我們資安資通安全署目前只有規定到科長級以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
132.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
134.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
是要經過特殊查核的 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
136.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
163.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
但是就如同我們最近在講外交部的這個資義的事件他的職等沒有到很高可是他要經手是部長的外交行程也因此當一個資義長期在部長旁邊然後拿到相關的資料的時候他流出去的機密不知道多少他的變成在政府底下變成是一個共諜那他可能跟部長沒有什麼兩樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
164.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
176.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
來 那我請教未來我們是不是要把我們相關的這些集合人員也要放入因為現在其他部會也都有這樣的考量他就說不是用職等來區分而是用他經手的業務來區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
178.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
205.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個我想這個我們再進一步去在部裡面根據行政院的規定我們會再進一步看怎麼樣去修改不是啊部長我們現在就是已經在討論到修法了如果說未來這個修法通過之後馬上就是變成是我們速發部資安署的業務那資安署馬上就要上路了我也看到你們講是說你們的集合的方式是要報行政院來核定但是總是這些都要先預想啊那個我請那個署長再來簡單說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
208.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
233.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我想剛剛委員提到的適應性查核或是特殊查核其實非常的重要那我跟委員報告一下那在治安署裡面的確剛剛委員所講的在科長級以上的主管是要做一些特殊查核但是我們是根據業務的一些涉及到機敏性來決定查核的範圍例如說在我們通報應變組裡面它所有同仁就要做查核就是根據這個組它的特性 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
234.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
253.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那您的法源依據咧?但目前為止我們只有看到公務人員的服務辦法裡面有所謂特殊查核那這個特殊查核表示報出去之後由法務部調查局來做特殊查核那你說其他人員是誰來做特殊查核?也是請一個法務部調查局那您的法源依據在哪裡?那這不是要法源依據這個是實現規則你要報那你的人員的名單你要報啊如果說你沒有報的話你怎麼有辦法讓法務部調查局 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
260.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
279.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們會報人員跟職務的這個職稱是啊那你現在報了嗎就是我們的通報應變組他這組因為他涉及到其他機敏的相關的一些資訊所以他人員就會做一些適應性的這個特殊查核我現在問的是說報了沒我們應該是有報不是不是應該來 部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
288.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
314.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那個現在已經有報過了對就是我們像有一些特殊性的一些組我們就有特別要求做一些比較重要的這些所以未來去集合的人員都有特殊查核對 未來的部分就是我們會增加適任性查核適任性查核指的是一般查核就是根據公務人員的利用法的第四條那再加上那是一般查核嘛但是我們現在講是說各 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
318.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
337.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
本席現在提出來就是要因為外交部的這個事件大家才看到是說當一個資義他可以守今守部長的行程相關的時候結果他只有查過一次就他到任的時候的一般查核但是他的精明程度 精守的程度非常的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
361.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
一樣嘛 如果說未來我們的資訊安全都是由我們治安署來查核總統府也是治安署 五院也是治安署那他們可能99%的同仁都非常好但只要有一個害群之馬 只要有一個老鼠屎的話他就有可能經手的資料出去的東西是破口 是漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
362.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
385.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以本席才會提出來是說到目前為止只有這個部分那未來是不是應該要增加那還有這個是公務人員任用法那如果說未來有委託委外有非公務人員的如果是委外的話我們那個治安法裡面的實行細則裡面對委外人員涉及到國家經濟的等等相關的部分也要做一些試驗性查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
385.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
410.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有編列在這個治安法裡面嗎目前的新的細節裡面就有這個部分好OK來那部長我再請教所以部長這個部分是本席特別提出來請在修法的過程裡面也一併要納入考量因為既然要做就不要有任何的漏洞那另外第二個部分危害全國家的資通安全產品我看到我們在第11條新增就是過去沒有法源一句我們把它給法源一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
441.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
2023年那個時候有講說我們現在差不多公務機關有上千項的產品軟硬體上千項是禁用的那未來我們的這個法制化之後這一個清單會不會出來那個 鮑委員因為這種東西產品一直在變而且它可能會棄產地所以我們不會給清單但是我們會隨時在審查跟通報但是這樣子我們的所有公務機關大家能不能夠掌握跟了解我們會通報所以會有個database |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
441.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
469.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
會有Database會持續的Update嘛因為本席有看到其實更重要譬如說啦上上個月那個人工智慧的軟體中國大陸製馬上我們之前也下令是說不准公務機關使用嘛那所以未來軟體的部分我們會適時的增添會審查然後檢驗跟通報就是會有個通報的一個Database所以依照這個相關法的依據適時的增添但是所有的公務機關以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
471.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
491.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
列管的重要的非公務機關也都會掌握所以不會有誤用的狀況應該不會我們會落實這個審查之前有媒體有問到是說那到目前為止因為既然我們現在要修法嘛那過去可能有用的地方那現在有沒有全部都盤查現在所有機關都沒有用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
492.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
503.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個有沒有落實因為之前媒體報導講的是說有一些產品它可能有特殊無可取代性所以說還沒有辦法完全的進行所以到目前為止我們現在掌握的狀況如何是 謝謝委員剛剛的這個指導我想的確是 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
510.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
525.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們有一些禁止使用的原則但是有一些例外原則例如說在一些教學或是研究的現場等等的那這些如果有需要的話一定要報部裡面同意之後在一些安全管控的環境之下例如說不能連公務的環境等等管控之下才可以使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
527.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
547.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那報部裡面同意組長所以我現在只是想問一件事啦就是這也是剛剛台灣民眾黨的總召黃國昌委員因為我聽過他太多次他都在質詢同一件事情我只想問我們現在清查了會不會再過一個月兩個月之後又報出哪一個部會用了我們的這個禁止列管的禁止的產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
550.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
569.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們現在有沒有全面清查因為給你們兩年的時間喔2023年開始我們也到現在2025年了你現在要修這個治安法那我們也同意我們也認為是說應該要加強我們國家的安全維護那但是現在通盤的去做檢驗除了有些特殊的有特殊報 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
571.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
595.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
備註書面你們有列管以外到底現在有沒有跟委員報告我們每人都有清查就是政府機關有沒有使用到這些不敢掛保證但每人都有清查然後如果他例外要使用的話都要報裡面來特別的根據他的理由來核准等等剛剛已經跟委員報告過了市長你沒有回答到我的問題你是個聰明人但是你不敢回答我這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
596.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
617.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
目前我想我們都有在清查這方面是有沒有使用部長 不好意思 一句話啦資安大家都關心 不分朝野 不分黨派但重點在於是落實我覺得科技日新萬億但是重點落實才能夠防止因為我覺得最重點還是人性 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
618.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
635.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這一點請部長這邊好好的我們之後逐條審查的時候會好好的逐條審查有委員不同版本有提出來跟我們行政院有多一些更加嚴謹或是更加精進的地方也拜託我們肅發部真的要用開放的態度來做一起的思考謝謝 |