| IVOD_ID |
16059 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16059 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024062802 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-03T08:31:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-03T12:08:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:36:57 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaae5f17226264b1aad6a76734f73991824f242ceca9577839e6cfce84e12755135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會公聽會（事由：「公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:03 - 12:08:00 |
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現在開會針對我們公職人員選舉罷免法例次的修法因為未能考量到原住民族分部與區域的特殊性做適當的調整以及2016年修法放寬罷免的門檻將通過門檻由投票率二分之一和同意票過半修正為有效同意票多於不同意票數且同意票數達原選舉區選舉人數的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1998.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2017.391 |
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總數的四分之一以上即會通過一級只要獲得原選區25%的少數民意支持就可以成功罷免那修法後也讓罷免案大增外界開始檢討低門檻的罷免設計是否合理此外公職人員選罷法的第75條雖然規定就職未滿一年則不得罷免但對於罷免提議跟連署的起始點卻沒有明確的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2025.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2051.744 |
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故為釐清相關的疑議．特舉辦本次的公聽會．邀請專家學者及相關的部會嚴商修法的方案．以建立更完善的選舉罷免的制度．我們會詳實地記錄各位的高見．並列入立法院公報記錄中．作為法案討論時的參考首先我們介紹出席的專家學者．出席委員跟政府機關的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2053.346 |
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2066.992 |
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首先我們先介紹出席的學者專家第一位是葉慶元律師第二位是舒子喬我們東吳大學政治學系的教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2069.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2078.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
紀禾鈞教授 國立中心大學國家政策與公共衛生事務研究所助理教授謝正翊 前東吳大學政治學系教授呂思翰 原住民族青年社會實踐協會理事 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2093.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2115.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
陳張培倫國立東華大學民主事務與發展學系副教授劉嘉威國立台北大學公共行政計政學系教授張嘉穎東武大學法學系及法律學系特聘教授林志傑國立陽明交通大學科技法律學院特聘教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2121.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2138.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
許冠哲 經濟民主聯合副秘書長李彥榮 山海公民參量行動發言人陳柏惟 前立法委員張柏楊 高雄市議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2141.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2154.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
簡年佑 國立政治大學 土地政策與環境規劃原住民專班學生劉淑冰 東大學政治學系教授接下來介紹我們的委員今天出席的委員有張志倫委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2167.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2187.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那接下來介紹我們出席的這個列席的政府機關代表首先介紹的是我們內政部常務次長吳唐安吳次長民政司代理司長鄭英宏鄭代理司長科長蔡明謙科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2189.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2204.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
中央選舉委員會選務處處長 余淑儀原駐民主委員會常務副主任委員 鍾新華法務部法制司副司長 謝志明 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2209.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2209.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
公職人員選舉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2226.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2226.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2242.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2258.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
發言臺正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言結束則按鈴兩聲我們現在是不是請部會先做簡短的報告首先請內政部吳唐安常務次長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2270.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2295.697 |
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主席、各位委員、女士先生首先對於各位委員對於內政業務推動的關注跟指導表示由衷的感謝那今天貴委員會召開公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進公聽會本部應邀報告也深感榮幸那我想針對公聽會所列的討論提綱也僅將本部的意見則要說明如下那也敬請參閱這次的書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2298.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2303.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有關總統、副總統與立法委員選舉是否可先行辦理原住民之不在籍投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2304.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2334.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
基於全國性公民投票實施不在籍投票系公民投票法明文已有規定也據社會共識建議優先實施至於對人的選舉不在籍投票為確保政策的成功實施也避免社會的疑慮本部認為疑是全國性公投實施後再行審慎推動那此外如緊就原住民選民先行採行不在籍投票移轉投票能可能有因部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2335.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2336.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2354.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2366.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
國情跟選舉文化都有不同那採行的方式也不一樣那基於選務作業的可行性並兼顧投票秘密及社會信任度我國應以移轉投票方式教具社會共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2368.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2396.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
至於實施不在籍投票﹚就依令定專法或採修正相關法規已結外國立法的例都不一其中日本、韓國、英國及新加坡系規範在選舉法規而美國菲律賓則是循訂定專法為之而我國是針對全國性公民投票實施不在籍投票依照公民投票法第25條規定系以令定專法方式辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2397.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2422.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
有關如何修法以保障原住民的參政權依照現行公職選報法第57條第一項及第三項選委會可將原住民公職人員選舉與其他公職人員選舉分設不同的投票所投票這個部分是並無設修法又單獨設置原住民投票所使選舉人集中應可有效解決原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2425.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2446.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
選舉人過少而衍生之投票的秘密問題那在113年的總統副總統及立法委員選舉中選會跟地方的選委會系已會同地方政府原住民事務主管機關來加強宣導那也朝集中設置原住民公職人員選舉投票方式辦理那使原住民的選舉人數一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2448.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2475.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
之投票所的比例也顯著下降那我想未來再因持續加強提高徵詢原住民選舉人異動的意願回復率那以為原住民的秘密投票那第四有關原住民立法委員缺額的處理的規範檢討查大院高經委員樹梅及吳委員麗華及盧委員憲一都已經有分別提案建議原住民的立法委員應比照區域立委於初學時應立即補選 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2476.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2503.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
基於原住民立法委員與區域立法委員同屬立法委員與區域立法委員出缺為相同處理本部竟表尊重但因原住民立法委員補選所設選務經費相較於區域立委補選增加也許多所以選務執行成本需要為通盤考量是否要甄列原住民立法委員出缺地補制度已結 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2504.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2527.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
考量現行區域立委欲有出缺情勢時﹐僅有補選方式予以補時﹐對於原住民立委單獨增列出缺地補的規範之妥適性﹐有待商榷﹐如意增訂﹐建議﹐地補室友及落選人地補的資格等級﹐也參照地方民意代表的規定來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2529.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2532.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有關原住民是不是可以得參與一般選區之選舉議題依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2537.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2564.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
公職選報法相關規定原住民的公職人員選舉是以具有原住民身份為選舉人又候選人因需具選舉人資格自然需有原住民身份因此原住民的選舉人依法僅得登記為原住民立法委員選舉候選人如欲開放原住民區域參與區域立委的選舉這部分會試射原住民的參政權益之調整牽涉甚廣那未來未具 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2566.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2580.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
社會在未具充分共識前建議是以維持現行的規定來為宜有關針對是否應修法在既有的罷免門檻下令清真同意票數 超過被罷免人當選得票數的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2583.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2601.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
罷免為我國憲法明定賦予人民之權利現行公職選報法有關罷免各項門檻規範是基於避免門檻過高而限制人民行使罷免權之行使的考量由立法委員提案將罷免的提議連署門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2603.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2632.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
分別由原選舉區的選舉人數的百分之二十三調降到百分之一及百分之十通過門檻則修訂為有效同意票數多於不同意票數且同意票數達原選舉區選舉人數四分之一以上在考量民意系隨著不同時空的環境的變動於選舉投票時選民同意反對或中立不投票這都是對於罷免案通過與否的表態 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2634.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2660.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是否要調高通過門檻：這也應是社會的共識的程度來審慎橫著再來第7點有關現行公職選罷法第75條第一項的規定意旨那在該條已經明文公職人員之罷免得由原選舉區選舉人向選舉委員會提出罷免案但就職未滿一年者不得罷免意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2661.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2684.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
公職人員罷免案之提議 需待公職人員就職滿一年 使得向選舉委員會提出那在相關的規範已經明確 應無修正之必要那以上說明 敬請各位委員及各位學者先進指教 謝謝謝謝吳次長 接下來請原住民委員會的鍾新華副主任委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2693.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2719.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主席 各位委員 各位專家學者 大家早本會受邀列席本次的公聽會備感榮幸依據憲法修正條文第10條第12項明確地規範國家因應民族的意願來保障原住民族的參政與政治參與意志凡能進一步保障原住民族政治參與之政策以及選務機關能妥適執行之政策方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2720.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2743.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
本會原則上均以致詞 以下僅就本次的公聽會說明本會的意見一 針對總統 副總統與立法委員的選舉可否先行辦理原住民不在籍投票議案不在籍投票是在一般民主國家已經實行多年並視為應提供給選民的基本服務考量原住民選舉正副總統與立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2744.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2745.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2769.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2775.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
在保障原住民投票秘密的立場在法治上應如何修法來保障原住民的參政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2797.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2826.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
基於信任度以及公正性的考量建議以移轉投票的方式為法制方式以及任由選民本人親自在投票當日前往投票所投票其可行性以及實施的方式較為國人所能接受公職人員選舉罷免法中缺額後續處置的制度應該如何調整以保障原住民參政權跟適時彌補民意缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2827.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2854.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
依據現行的規定原住民立法委員的選舉區因故產生缺額應該符合同一選舉區內缺額達半數之條件 使能辦理補選區域立法委員補選則無上開限制同為立法委員卻有不同的補選規定依大院法治局研究報告建議規定一致是為可行的一個修法方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2855.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2878.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
次按照憲法徵修條文明文規定應尊重原住民族意願保障其政治參與之意旨原住民立法委員補選規範之修正若有助於提升原住民族參政權之保障本會競表之詞至於應採補選依後替補事設選務規劃以及執行可行性之專業評估本會注重內政部以及中央選舉委員會之權責第五 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2881.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2898.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
原住民參與一般選舉區的選舉是否需先先行放棄原住民身份以後在一定的時間內選擇參與原住民選區後一般選區即可按我國現行中央及地方公職人員選舉才非原住民原住民分別保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2900.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2914.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
區分為一般選區以及原住民選區過去實務上確實發生原住民為了參選一般選區而放棄原住民身份之例子為原住民得否放棄身份而於一定的時間內選擇參與原住民選區或一般選區一節應施設國家選舉制度及調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2920.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2946.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
建議進行大院徵詢法令主管機關的意見中上首述公職人員選舉罷免制度如何設計之條以及調整得以實質促進原住民族參政權之優化提升因為涉及國家整體選舉制度以及選務技術性細節性等專業規範規劃本會尊重內政部以及中央選舉委員會之權責以上的說明也敬請各位委員以及各位專家先進指導謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2949.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2956.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主席在場的學者專家各位機關的代表 大家早安 大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2978.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3007.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我是泰陵法律事務所業心願律師剛來的路上記者把我攔下來問我說我今天是不是代表謝國良、謝市長來我要嚴正的否認因為我並沒有被謝國良市長委任辦理這個相關的案件完全是立法院找我來然後就我的理解這個法律就算修正大概也不太可能適用到基隆的罷免案所以我覺得這個事情應該要脫離一般罷免案件來做思考那我們法律才能夠可長可久這是我要先說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3008.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3009.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我們今天針對公職人員選罷法的精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3019.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3034.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我想我比較會針對調整罷免門檻跟就職未滿一年就進行罷免這兩件事來做討論可能就主要包括了罷免權的依據跟制度目的罷免案投票的門檻還有96年到105年版的擺盪還有修正的建議然後針對就職未滿一年這個到底應該怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3042.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3068.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們從選法法第75條的制度目的跟就職委員每一年的解釋方式來做討論最後是結語我想回到罷免權的依據跟制度目的我們大家知道憲法第18條本來就有規定說人民有選舉、罷免、創制、覆決的權利那制度的目的是為了要監督民選公職人員要淘汰不適任的人員時期提前拒職那相類似的手段當然還有彈劾跟糾舉那彈劾的話原則上就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3069.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3085.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
對於公職人員有違法實職的行為有承接機關來做處理就舉人員的上職不包括名義代表的所以罷免他是有他的制度必要性的罷免門檻其實就會變成關鍵為什麼你門檻很高的話你根本做不到那制度就會形同虛設 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3086.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3103.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
也沒辦法達成憲法上面罷免的目的罷免可能如果太低的話呢變成好像就會變成少數挾持多數那這個其實就反過來打敗了我們原來民主是希望多數跟少數這個兩個以多數來決定多數決定失誤的這個目的那96年版跟105年黨的這個擺盪在選辦法90條本來是投票人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3115.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3129.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
二分之一加上投票數的二分之一雙二分之一來做一個門檻然後呢到了這個105年版就把二分之一很快速的大幅降到四分之一那這個當然就是為了罷免權榮譽行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3131.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3156.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們回頭看看在105年修正之前104年立委罷免案是不會過的105年也沒過106年的里長不管是立委、鄉長、里長的罷免案都沒有過顯然是看起來投票率都到不了50%的門檻106年起總共有22案有12案是沒有通過的同意票數沒有到達門檻有5案是不同意的是多數 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3157.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3160.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
有6萬是通過的投票率最高是67.7%幾乎68%最低是27% |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3166.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3169.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
罷免案數量激增會不會成為落選者報復的工具或是政黨的惡鬥立法院在100年的研究報告指出一個問題如果是小選區單一選區只選出一個不管是民意代表或是行政首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3188.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3205.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
會出現罷免門檻這個罷免的票數會低於當選票數的問題等於是少數的罷免票罷免了多數的票數選出來的首長或立委那這個似乎是欠缺正當性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3206.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3231.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那回過來在大選區的選舉制度一個選區選出多數民意代表我們現在大概知道議員都是這樣選的反過來你的罷免門檻罷免的票數會大於他的當選票數這也欠缺合理性所以這個東西到底應該怎麼設計其實立法院100年的研究報告就在討論這個問題不是 我要再講一遍真的不是為了某一位市長或是某一位委員要被罷免來討論這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3233.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3252.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以現在會變成說同意票只需要達到總選舉人數的四分之一就可以通過罷免案會導致罷免的同意票小於原當選票數所以如果要回到一個比較有民主正當性的修正方向的話是不是一種可能性的思考就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3253.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3281.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
你的投票結果除了有效的同意票數多於不同意的票數以外必須要多於被罷免人的原得票數才算通過如果沒有超過原來的得票數的話極為否決我覺得這是一個可以考慮的一個修法方向我還是要再強調一次立法院看起來就算要修正通過的話也不會適用在這次的基隆罷免案所以不要把它跟基隆罷免案掛上一個等號 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3282.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3299.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
再來針對選法法第75條的規定我回來講一下就是我們一般的選舉投票跟罷免案它其實會有一個不一樣的地方在我們一般的選舉案的時候大部分來講我們是一個正面動員兩個政黨當然我們會看到政黨去說你這個人有什麼問題那個人有什麼問題你這個政黨有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3302.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3317.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那另一方面也是很積極提出正面的政見告訴大家說我這個政黨我這個候選人我希望積極的去做什麼事來服務我的選區的人民我要提出什麼建設但是在罷免案呢它是一個負面動員仇恨動員 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3318.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3340.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
基本上說這個市長很壞這個立委很爛這個議員根本就在擺爛每天就是搞笑他其實是仇恨指數高的時候可能會達到門檻所以他其實跟我們一般在選舉的時候會吸引出的選民其實是不完全相同的而且基本上在一般的選舉我們會發生另外一個狀況就是一般選舉因為是全國一起選 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3342.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3371.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
執政黨比較沒有辦法把資源集中在單一選區去做操作所以我們可以發現說如果針對一個單一選區在做選舉罷免的時候它的結果往往會跟全國一起選舉的時候效果會有偏差所以我覺得這個部分大家也要去思考一下這跟門檻它所形成的聯動效應回到選法法第75條的規定跟爭議選法法第75條一項但書其實寫得很明白就職位滿一年者不得罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3371.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3391.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那當然實務上就有爭議啦什麼叫不得罷免呢是說不能提出罷免提議嗎是不能進行連署嗎還是不能產生罷免結果我到底可不可以辦很多造勢活動去收集罷免提議的提議書或連署書呢其實這邊其實就回到一個問題你如果是希望淘汰不適任的民選公職員又有一年的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3392.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3415.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
你不希望它成為政黨惡鬥的工具你顯然應該要等到一年以後應該才去進行相關的活動恐怕才是比較妥當的所以我會認為說在這樣的情況下我們的修正方向應該是不得欲為罷免提議書的蒐集可能比較妥適時間剩下45秒我順便再提一下就是其實我那天去正好去上一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3416.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3423.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
彈劃性節目我旁邊的是張綺凱張委員他就說他們民眾黨其他的委員之前在 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3424.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3449.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
目前的執政黨服務他就說他們以前在當公職人員的時候也有幫忙做聯署那這個聯署就是我手上有什麼選民名冊然後我反正就有選民的姓名他的出生年月日跟他的地址我就直接幫他抄了就幫他簽名了那現行這個聯署狀況有沒有辦法被杜絕沒有因為你沒有他的身份證影本等等所以會有出現被聯署的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3450.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3453.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
主席、各位學者專家、各位先進、各位大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3477.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3497.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我就這個罷免制度提出口頭說明提出五點的重點關於原住民的議題我這邊就不討論第一點就是說在我全世界的比較政治的制度來看事實上中央層級的罷免制度其實在全世界並不普遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3498.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3514.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
不論是總統選舉還是總統還是國會議員其實都很少有罷免制度那如果我們觀察全世界的幾個成熟穩定的民主國家例如英國、美國、德國、日本、法國這一國家這些國家的國會議員事實上都沒有罷免制度都沒有罷免制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3515.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3516.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3536.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3537.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3558.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3582.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
的這樣的國家到底有什麼國家事實上只有如果我沒有查錯的話只有波利維亞、厄瓜多、委內瑞拉然後就中華民國就是所有的民選公職都有罷免制度了就全世界就只有罕見這幾個國家而已這是第一點這是我對全世界各國的比較政治提出這樣一個第一個觀察第二點我要講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3583.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3586.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
為什麼國會議員在全世界罷免制度並不普遍我想跟民主政治所講的大義理論這涉及到學理的問題大義理論是有關係的一般來說到底一個國會議員如何代表選民 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3606.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3625.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這樣的一個議題有兩種論點一種是委任說一種是全權委託說那委任說的觀點我這邊講的簡單一點就是說委任說的觀點是認為說國會議員被選出來的時候他就是要忠實的完全反映選區的民意然後要像一面鏡子一樣反映民意那你就是要反映你選區選民的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3626.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3650.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那就是在這樣的代議理論之下在委任說這樣的觀點之下那才有這個罷免制度這樣的一種制度的延伸也就是說罷免制度是在反映這種所謂委任說的觀點這個委任說在憲法上又稱為叫強制委任或稱命令委任那另外一種代議理論是權權委託說那個在憲法上又稱為叫自由委任那這種觀點是認為說我們國議員被人民選出來之後被選民選出來之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3654.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3678.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
它是可以做自己的獨立判斷的因為我們會期待說我們的國會不只是一個各地方狹隘利益的集合體而已我們選出的國會議員他應該是要代表全國民意然後全國的利益實踐國家整體的公共利益所以他是代表全國的選民的這叫全權委託說或是自由委任說我們憲法62條規定說我們看我們憲法規定說立法院為國家最高立法機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3684.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3701.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
由人民選出的立委所組成,代表人民行使立法權那個條文當然寫得很精簡不過在條文上所講的代表人民行使立法權不是代表選區的人民所以在我們憲法通說上會認為說我們的立法委員他其實是應該是反映自由委任書的觀點選權委託書的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3704.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3710.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那如果從這角度來思考就是說我們憲法第17條規定人權條款規定人民有選舉罷免創制覆決第133條規定說被選舉人得由原選舉區依法罷免資那這裡就有一個地方值得思考就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3721.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3747.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
在這樣的規定之下是不是就代表說由選區選出的各種民選公職人員公職人員都要適用罷免制度這其實是值得斟酌的啦因為在我國目前是好像都認為說公職人員被人民選出來之後那罷免就是天經地義的事情那我覺得這部分其實罷免制度是不是要全部適用在所有公職人員身上這是值得思考的那從這一點我可以進步在這一個小節就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3748.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3775.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
國議員他雖然是選區選民選出來的不過他除了一方面在實務上代表這個地方選民地方的選民之外他也是要對代表全民的對全國人民負責的所以而且一方面我說國議員在議會中他其實合意制他不是一個單一一個人所做決定會影響到這個是合意制而且是在政黨政策運作之下那個如果說因為個人政見議題的問題被選民罷免我覺得他合理性是值得斟酌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3776.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3791.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
相交於之下地方的行政首長因為他是對地方人民負責他是獨任制他的職責是進行決策跟執政的所以有罷免制度我想是合理的這是第二點第三點我要強調就是說事實上不同公職人員因為他們職務性質不同選舉制度不同選出的方式不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3800.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3820.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以都要適用同樣罷免的門檻其實是不盡合理的那這邊如果我們把焦點再進一步延伸到地方的民意代表因為我們地方的民意代表是採複數歧視選區的相對多數字也就是說我舉個例子比如我們台北市議員他應選名額可能有選區應選名額10個那可能第10名當選他得票率可能就在5%、7%、8%就當選了那其實有90%以上的選民都沒有投給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3826.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3829.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
議員代表選區中的少數利益代表選區中多元利益的反應所以有人認為說我們地方議員的罷免門檻罷免投票通過的票數會遠高於當選票數所以認為說要 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3847.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3867.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
認為是門檻過高而要把門檻降低我覺得這樣的論點邏輯是可義的是值得斟酌的總之我覺得在我們複數席次選區的制度之下其實一個罷免制度要設立門檻是非常困難的一件事情都會留於主觀性這是我要強調第三點總之我要講說就是職務不同職務的性質不同選舉制度不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3871.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3895.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
在不同的性質不同跟選舉制度不同的情況之下同樣適用相同的罷免的門檻跟程序其實是有待商榷的第四點我覺得進入到一個比較後面的結論從一個比較radical比較根本激進的角度來看我會認為我們立法委員的罷免制度它的存廢 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3896.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3923.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
甚至是可以考量的就是說我們國會議員的罷免制度真的要存在嗎是值得斟酌的甚至地方議員的罷免制度是不是真的要存在我覺得也值得斟酌因為他們罷免的門檻其實不容易設定的我覺得罷免制度比較能夠適用的是在地方的行政首長但我們總統選舉因為是憲法規定那個是另外一個議題我們這邊就不討論不過最後一點我要談的就是說還剩30秒就是說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3924.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3940.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
不論這次我們現在罷免的門檻怎麼修正我覺得目前這樣的修改方向是好的我是支持的不過因為我們憲法第8條規定說立法委員增加自己的報酬或是待遇規定要從次屆體實施也就是要有利益迴避的這樣的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3941.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3941.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
蘇子喬教授接下來請紀和鈞教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3981.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3999.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
主席 各位委員 各位學者代理專家今天很高興能參加這個公聽會針對公聽會因為所要參考的議題太多所以我還是比較聚焦在所謂的罷免門檻的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4001.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4027.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
修正的這個部分我本身我因為是這個流發的背景所以當時我想這個大院邀請我來可能也是希望我能夠介紹一點這個外國法的概念這個法國的制度跟我們很不一樣是什麼就是他從頭到尾都沒有說人民應該罷免罷免他的公職人員那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4030.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4034.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
而且因為他透過大家都知道他總統是兩輪選舉再加上他的議員就是現在正在進行的法國的國民議會的議員他基本上也是兩輪選舉所以他的一個選舉基本上當選人已經經過了重重的競爭他選上了 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4053.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4076.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
所以他們會認為說你再把他罷免掉這個等於是他有個隱藏的關卡過了一年後他這個隱藏關卡突然又爆發了讓他再選第三次這其實本身是不合理的但是在法國的這個制度裡面有沒有人曾經想要說我們學一下美國學一下拉丁美洲國家的這個罷免制度有在這個2021年就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4078.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4092.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
他現在的這個我們講的極左派的政黨叫做不屈法國這個黨呢是有提出一個法律修正他們的選舉法典就是他們所有的選舉法放在一個叫選舉法典裡面這個不好意思我看一下那個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4101.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4127.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
他這個條文是這樣他在選舉法典裡面的這個總章這個部分呢偵涉了這個所謂的77之一條77之一條那麼很有趣他認為既然要罷免那就所有人都可以被罷免所以呢他的77條之一這修正草案的77條之一的第一項就是什麼就是罷免法國共和國總統我要罷免他 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4130.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4133.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
罷免中央級的國會議員 參議員 國民議員 國民議會的議員我們講眾議員也可以第三個就是罷免地方的各種公職人員可是很特別的是他都沒有特別講他的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4155.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4160.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
都沒有特別講他的門檻所以當年也不是當年我們現在是2024年2022年在討論這個案子在也是類似於我們的法國國會國民議會的內政委員會在討論這個案子的時候當時的主流的這個政黨連他這個極左派的不屈法國的政黨的這個議員還有他這個國民議會的報告呢都說了一個問題第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4186.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4200.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們為什麼要行使罷免制度其實這個也是我們一直要問的問題那第二個問題就是那我們怎麼去設定他的這個門檻第三個設定了這樣的一個制度他真的能夠穩定這個民主的運作嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4204.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4212.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以最後這個案子連在內政委員會都沒有通過為什麼 連他極左派的不屈法國這個黨的黨內都出現了很大的爭議所以後來我們在因為受這個大院邀請在這個公聽會的這個準備的時候我特別去看了一些相關的這個法國的重要的一些學者的討論他們的理由是什麼 他們的理由是 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4231.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4251.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
每次的選舉基本上就是一次定期的考核啦那麼我們應該要讓這個被考核的人這個被選上的公職人員有一個穩定的時程讓他去完成他要做的事情而不是他一選上以後他就在想下次我的罷免選舉在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4255.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4282.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我在這個我們在2016年這個就是105年的這個修正版本的時候當時我就覺得非常奇怪的是我們不是應該讓我們的工人員有一定的時間有一定的期限讓他能夠穩定的去做推行他的政策嗎或推行他的理念嗎可是現在不是現在是只要剛選完一年後馬上你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4283.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4309.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
對你的施政或對你的意見或對你的觀點不同意的人他就立刻提出什麼提案書聯署書那你想每一個公職人員他在頭一年裡面他想的到底是推行他的政策還是落實他的觀點還是想的是我要想一想有沒有人會用罷免制度把握什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4311.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4322.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
進入延長賽那這樣對我們的民主真的穩定嗎這個我是請大院多多思考另外一個我也必須要講就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4323.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4348.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
其實我們今天講這個中央公職人員選舉除了總統、總統、副總統這個罷免因為我們這個憲法有相關規定這個一回事以外我們要講這個我們的這個立法委員層級的選舉其實是有三分之一人是不可能被罷免的為什麼他們是不分區啊怎麼罷免他那想想看那這樣是不是在委員本身就出現了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4350.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4361.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
立法資格上面的不平等有沒有想過這種事情而且這個我們盜保官很早就說不分區是因為他是代表政黨的我們不可以把他罷免掉那為什麼不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4363.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4379.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
如果可以罷就可以罷為什麼不能罷我就說我把你罷掉你就從原來的名單裡面再推選一個人不就好了嗎可是我們大法官說不好所以可見大法官本身對於這個罷免制度也是採取什麼存疑的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4381.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4392.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
再來我必須要講的是大家今天因為這個公聽會這個時間點似乎好像這個就像前面幾位先進所發言似乎好像有這麼這個時間點上有點尷尬的地方但是我必須要講的是因為我們的這個選舉罷免選罷法的這個罷免制度是通行於除了總統以外通行於其他的選舉這個各級的公職人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4410.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4415.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
大家要注意我們現在最常被罷免的是里長大家想想看里長有的里很大有的里很小我們用同樣的一個制度所以里長們被這個事情搞得是非常非常頭痛 為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4431.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4450.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我才剛當選我還沒做什麼事情我就被我的敵對的或者競爭對手發起要罷免而且因為他的提案只要1%就好那個你很小一下就提案了一下就連署成功了一下就要開始進行選舉了這樣真的好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4454.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4456.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
接下來請劉家威教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4490.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4506.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
主席 各位委員 還有機關代表以及我們在座的各位學術監禁媒體朋友還有議事人員大家好 大家辛苦了今天非常高興收邀到大院來分享我對這些議題的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4506.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4507.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
第6點和第7點有關於罷免門檻還有75條有關於提起罷免一年的認定問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4525.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4525.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
公職人員選舉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4545.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4567.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
基隆罷免現在也進入了一個非常高漲的階段我本身對於這個議題的討論我想也是需要把它分開的也就是說這次的修法的公聽會所討論的內容它必須是跟目前正在進行的一些罷免的提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4568.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4596.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
或是罷免的連署必須是分開的那這樣子罷免的設計制度上不管是門檻或是第7點有關於一年內的提議的部分應該都不能因人設事不是因為說我們現在的金融正在進行罷免的連署或是哪一個里的里長或是哪一個地方的烽火連天的罷免議員或者是立法委員的罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4598.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4609.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們需要把這樣的修法議題跟它扣在一起我認為不是的這樣子的罷免如果這個制度上的設計有改變的話我認為應該要有一個日出條款也就是未來我們什麼時候才需要開始進行這些制度的日出條款從什麼時候開始做我想這個是我發言的一個前提 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4625.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4635.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
以下就來就今天的這兩點來做一個討論首先是第6點的部分有關於選罷法的90條就是罷免門檻的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4640.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4663.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
的確如提綱所言我們可以看到是有一些少數否決的狀況少數否決的狀況那特別這樣子的少數否決呢他是發生在單一選區的制度裡面那以我國現行的制度而言單一選區呢包含了總統包含了 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4664.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4664.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
公職人員．事由．事由 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4680.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4695.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個單一選區我們會發現因為它是單一選區所以它的得票數依照杜瓦傑法則基本上它都會是過半或是幾乎過半這樣的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4696.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4696.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
公職人員選舉法實務現況精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4717.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4742.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
當然過去的修法是因為罷免不容易執行不容易成立甚至不容易通過所以發生這樣子的情形做了一個修法這個修法其實也有幾年下來了所以我們可以開始觀察這個制度的實行是不是產生了一些政治上面的一些效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4742.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4745.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
公職人員被罷免,但罷免還是困難的狀況在這種情況之下,我們就有必要檢視少數否決的情形單一選區應該要去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4767.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4776.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
負數選區負數選區就是有關於現在的縣市議員他們使用的是負數選區在這樣子的選區的結構之下他是得票數不需要這麼高不像單一選區得票數是比較低的但是他所使用的罷免門檻是跟單一選區是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4793.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4793.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
公職人員選舉法實務現況精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4815.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4842.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
另外我們應該要去思考一個問題當選的時候他有一定的票數但是被罷免的時候他的票數是不是應該至少要跟他的得票數是一樣的否則還是會造成少數的人就可以使當選的公職人員被罷免這是我針對第6點的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4845.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4852.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
公職人員選罷法第75條規定不能就就職未滿一年的公職人員提起罷免立法院議應該是說就職未滿一年不能啟動罷免程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4867.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4882.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
原意應該是這樣否則他不用去訂這個一年如果他沒有寫這個東西那就是隨時只要當選後都可以提起罷免那所以當時這個修法我想是沒有寫得非常的清楚沒有寫得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4883.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4887.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
公職人員當選後一年之後才開始可以啟動罷免程序這個在一般的民間應該是可以理解就是說一個公職人員他當選之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4912.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4912.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4929.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4929.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
公職人員跟總統比較起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4954.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4955.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
徐宇貞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4992.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5009.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
主席還有各位專家學者大家好針對公職人員選舉罷免法在2016年修法之後公職人員罷免的門檻降為同意票數要達到原選區的四分之一以上而且同意票要大於不同意票即為通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5010.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5030.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
自從罷免的制度門檻下修之後有成功的例子也有失敗的狀況雖然說罷免制度可以讓民眾有機會下架不適任的公職人員但是我們也必須要警惕不要成為政治鬥爭的籌碼更不能容忍罷免成為一種政治報復的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5031.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5048.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
民主制度需要一個健全的制度來保護而不是任由其濫用民主的精髓在於尊重多數人的意見但當罷免的門檻設計過低的時候就有可能導致少數人為了罷免來實現私利進而削弱了民主的根基 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5049.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5052.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這幾年罷免的提案經常發生這跟低門檻的設計有很大的問題現行的罷免門檻過低除了會變相鼓勵罷免之外也讓敗選的一方容易操作罷免成為選舉的延長賽不但不利於民主良善的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5068.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5068.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
國際社會資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5088.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5088.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5106.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5125.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
因此在民國105年11月的時候民進黨全面執政將罷免門檻修正為罷免案投票結果有效同意票多於不同意票數且同意票數達原選舉區的人數的四分之一以上現行的門檻這個過低已經被提出來多次討論有專家學者認為因為罷免權具有破壞性質會避免罷免權被濫用因而破壞政治的穩定性 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5136.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5146.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以脫離這個憲政的常軌應該要修正現行的選罷法中的罷免制度的規定那選舉是選賢與能罷免是免除不適任的公職人員續任公職的一個手段那單一選區要進半數的選票才能夠當選但是現在卻只要四分之一的門檻就可以把它罷掉形同讓少數的民意否決多數的民意因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5165.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5180.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
當選時票數較高,但是罷免時只要部分的人,四分之一的人同意就可以通過導致罷免已成為政治報復的工具,顯然非常不合理當然在這個除此之外,我們還要看到很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5180.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5204.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
在這個罷免的一個過程中會有很多的一個問題包括我這次還有修正第75條的規定就是就職未滿一年者不得罷免因為沒有明確的規定所以導致很多的里長跟民意代表在面臨一上任就有人啟動罷免的提議跟連署讓他們也沒辦法真正開始好好做事就必須要面對罷免的這樣的一個問題所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5208.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5231.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
當很多這樣的一個狀況發生他們未滿一年就開始收集提議書、聯署書甚至惡意的造假聯署人的名冊的情況顯見罷免的聯署程序跟宣傳的規範也過於寬鬆也破壞民主選舉的精神當然現行的罷免制度之下我們也希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5232.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5252.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
新增同意票數去超過被罷免人當選票數叫符合公平正義也就是說不能讓少數的民意去否決多數的民意也希望這樣子的一個狀況發生之後呢任何的黨籍的公職人員都可以適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5254.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5282.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
從最近罷免連署的狀況來看因為低門檻的罷免設計而且罷免連署規範不夠嚴謹導致有心人都拿著名冊亂抄加上中選會的不作為已經為罷免制度帶來一系列不良的影響罷免的門檻偏低連署的方式過於寬鬆已成為罷免者成為說不起的報復工具甚至我想這也是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5283.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5300.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
針對我們嚴肅的公共事務也損害了民主制度的這個信譽那這一次的公聽會希望這個能夠因為我們也看到民進黨的很多委員也都有提出了相關的90條的修正版本顯見草原的立委都認為現行的罷免的門檻確實過低造成高票當選低票罷免的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5304.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5305.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
徐宇貞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5330.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5356.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
主席各位在座的委員各位媒體朋友各位今天應邀來的學者專家我參加多次的立法院的公聽會但是不曉得什麼原因今天出席的朝野委員非常的少我們看上禮拜美國總統大選在辯論前兩天華盛頓郵報 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5361.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5365.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
列了21個問題來問這兩個總統來希望這兩個總統不是簡單式的回答他問什麼問題呢中東戰爭是不是應該美國的立場是什麼美國總統應該給年輕人什麼樣的幫助二屋戰爭什麼叫勝利這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5388.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5413.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
就較於美國總統的可能的候選人也同樣讓全國老百姓能夠思考這些問題但是我們每一次碰到政治問題的時候可能有些政黨就先給他定位斐憲亂政有些政黨可能8年在國會裡面沒有多數了就急於要通過造成全國民眾沒有辦法理性來面對問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5415.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5422.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這是我非常擔心的一個事情我同樣的要來對原住民的這個委員的這個部分或者是說他的選罷的這個部分表達一點意見原因就是因為我非常尊重原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5441.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5465.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以簡單的意見我認為第一點通訊投票迫在媒體應該開放給原住民選舉因為原住民是這麼的勇敢跟樂觀那我們這一條路在未來一段時間因為台灣在海外的人擁有中華民國國籍的很多嘛我們一步一步開放嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5466.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5492.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這是有關原住民的一個選罷另外一個就是有關選區現在原住民要選一個要全國跑我也參考一些意見能不能把它分為北中南三區然後讓委員不需要跑這麼大的浮域然後每一區平地跟山地各一人這解決問題了另外2022年 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5496.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5519.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
大法官也作出了一個判決臺灣平鋪組也是屬於臺灣原住民三年內必須要修法那下一次或下下次原住民的委員的人數可能就要更動這些問題都應該及早因應另外原住民的身份在應該可以參考紐西蘭的毛利組 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5520.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5540.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
他可以自己選擇我再投原住民還是投一般的立委的部分我們再往下看另外我們今天來找學者就是希望提供一點歐美罷免權的參考剛剛有幾位學者已經提了很多我要提的是這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5541.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5554.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
有一個學者寫了這麼一句話就是罷免權是很重要的它對國家的良好運作至關重要就像體內的肺部用於淨化血液一樣重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5555.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5581.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這是學理啊但是落實到現實的時候有些罷免很難操作或者法令的密度不夠產生嚴重了很多罷免的所謂的少數否決多數啊甚至在現有的罷免案當中也有過去一段時間各位很清楚那個就對外募款啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5583.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5600.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
但是募款的額度是多少呢?沒有規範沒有在選罷法裡面規範政治獻金法裡面也沒有提到罷免的能不能募款這個法律非常的疏我們法律要讓它密一點才能夠真正規範這個社會的正常運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5604.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5627.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
剛剛很多學者提到了,很多先進的國家都在中央層級都沒有罷免以瑞士為例,他26個州只有6個州有罷免,而且是地方層級的再往下看好不好我們再看再往下好不好,因為時間的因素罷免是一個應該審慎為之的 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5631.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5658.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
民主政治著重點在選舉啊所以有人講罷免他是放在門後的一個鋸棒創製復決是門後的兩支槍但是我們今天有到那個財囊橫行然後所有這些民選的人都為非作歹說要拿出罷免 拿出創製復決來對付這些行政官員或者民選的這些人員嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5659.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5683.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我想這是大家真的要審慎思考我們常常講艱險思緒怎麼樣讓我們的所有的這些選罷的制度能夠上軌道所以提高門檻可能是歐美民主國家在地方層級裡面的罷免的狀況它是一個很重要的參考指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5685.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5704.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
也就是不輕易啟動但是啟動呢往往有很多情況之下像加州啊就罷免一百四十幾次當然地方官員啊台灣話有一句話講齁一機操就可能半導人啊所以我們怎麼樣來審慎的來用這個罷免權我們再看往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5709.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5725.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
就一年內不能夠所有罷免的行動、連署的行動等等這些應該更密的寫在這個選罷法裡面讓整個全國朝野政黨如果要走罷免這條路都能夠有比較明確的規範可循 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5728.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5739.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
另外 低門檻那個狀況 我想前面幾位委員都講過了 那我就不講 我的書面的東西有許多例子再往下看好不好政治急不得 但是也緩不得 我從數據上來看 過去三次選舉 四次選舉 兩大黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5754.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5773.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
政黨票已經有相當比例 高達30%左右 老百姓是不滿意 兩大黨的所以這是一個警訊 朝野兩大黨應該審慎為之 今天可以看到來的人根本不重視委員根本不重視 再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5775.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5784.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
為什麼所謂的國會現在第一大黨要急著這個因為過去8年國會跟行政一體所以太多問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5786.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5810.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們在看為什麼這些問題不是選罷法本身就可以解決大環境比如說如果是少數政府跟國會多數往往是衝突的根源這是國內外研究非常多的再加上中共因素如果對台灣壓力大的話那台灣民眾又可能又激起一個類似民粹式的一個方式回應這些都不是民主的常態 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5811.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5820.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
法已實轉則治 治已是已則有功所以怎麼樣因應現在的選法法的不足我趕快修正 謝謝謝謝我們謝振宇教授接下來請林智傑教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5837.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5865.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
主席﹖各位列席的長官﹖各位今天來與談的專家學者﹖還有各位媒體朋友﹖各位委員﹖大家早安﹖大家好我是國立陽明交通大學的﹖林志傑老師謝謝今天委員會的邀請﹖以及召委的主持﹖讓我們有機會來討論﹖兩個非常重要的制度第一個是關於原住民的投票方式是不是有可能採用不在籍投票﹖或者是其他更為便利的投票方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5865.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5870.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
第二是關於罷免制度的改變有沒有必要提高罷免的門檻以及開始罷免的時間針對這兩個題目本人簡單回覆如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5877.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5903.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
剛剛我也把我所有的回答已經PO在我的粉絲專頁上那也傳到媒體群組來進攻各位媒體朋友桌餐有關於第一個問題就是不在即投票在2020年當時的總統跟立委選舉的時候我個人曾經跟多位交通大學 當時還沒有合校的老師們發起益助我們的同學回鄉投票的一個活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5904.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5925.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
最主要就是其實在參政權的實施上面弱勢的群體他的投票成本如果是高的那確實有可能影響參政權的形勢那這邊要講的是不在籍投票裡面有多種方式比如通訊的方式或者是移轉的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5926.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5942.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
台灣在整個選舉過程裡面有幾項原則是最根本的最重要的原則就是國家安全以及投票人的自由意志不受干擾為什麼國家安全是最重要的因為台灣的狀況跟世界其他的國家並不相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5943.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5957.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以在投票的制度上如果拿其他國家說你看某某國家有通訊投票這已經是一個電子化的時代我們也要來做那這個就是罔顧目前台灣在外交以及敵國滲透的困難度 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5958.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5982.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
大家可以想像如果今天我們開放了電子投票而這個電子投票地是包括中國我們的台商大概會被集合在某一個體育館裡面一起電子投票吧所以我國的人民的投票權包括投票的隱私自由意志的確保我覺得這一點是在我們去更改任何投票辦法上都必須要在資念資的因為這個才是維護我們人民的基本權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5983.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6005.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
所以從這幾點來看我們剛剛提過了第一個是國家安全第二個是人民的自由意志參政權的想法不受干預那麼第三個就是投票過程的公正也就是不同的群體之間如果你特別讀後某一個群體那有類似狀況的群體可能也會來群起要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6006.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6034.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
所以就回到剛剛開幕的時候我說到的確實原住民族可能他有平地跟山地通勤上面的需求但是絕大部分的大專生所有的人幾乎都是離鄉背井的在讀書的請問一下那大專生是不是也可以一併的來要求我的意思是說當今天我們的立法委員提出這種草案的時候就拜託要思考不同群體之間公平的實施參政權的平等性 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6035.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6058.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以在我看來最適合的可以來做不在籍投票裡面的移轉投票大概就是公投所以公投因為它所有的題目不管你在臺北 在台中 在高雄 題目都是一樣的這個時候你如果用移轉投票並不至於造成秘密的外洩比如說你整個投開票數裡面只有一位原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6059.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6077.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那麼他投哪一個候選人這是昭然若揭的請問他的秘密投票自由誰來確保他所以當今天要提一個案的時候一定要有專業的素養同時要有人民基本權的概念那並不是說對於原住民族的投票權益不以確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6077.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6103.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
而是必須在權衡兼顧剛剛所言的幾種狀況下因此我個人是支持可以在公投上考量未來移轉投票擴大到不同群體的可行性至於候選人的選舉性投票我個人並不贊同用通訊投票或者是移轉投票因為目前看起來他的弊是大於利的這是第一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6104.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6105.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
針對第二個問題提高罷免門檻這邊要跟各位談的就是說其實罷免門檻的問題是跟一個國家如何設計他監督公職人員的制度聯動的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6120.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6136.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
什麼意思呢?簡單講一個具有高度的倫理規範自律非常高對於民意代表跟公職人員的懲戒非常嚴格的國家他的罷免門檻可以定的嚴一點因為其他的制度是周全的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6137.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6159.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
反之一個國家如果對於民意代表的濫權失職公職人員的違法行為沒有辦法有民意的彰顯那麼罷免的門檻就不宜過高這兩件事是聯動的關係因為罷免是一個參政權同時也是監督公職人員表現非常重要的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6161.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6185.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我個人支持罷免法可以討論一個修改就是罷免的理由因為觀察過去不論是陳柏惟委員或是林昶佐委員當時被提出罷免的理由姑且不論裡面的資訊是錯的比如統計的數字中間是不對的或者是某某委員曾經發表過某種言論事實上也不是正確的罷免的理由我覺得可以更為堅強具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6187.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6204.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以如果今天要修選罷法是要討論未來應強烈罷免理由而且這些罷免理由必須經過核實我覺得我個人是贊成的不能夠因為今天他比如說我主張中華民國與中國互不隸屬我就被提起罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6204.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6226.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這是不行的因為我如果陳述一個現實狀況或者是我有某一些政治的信仰主張你就要來罷免我對不起我覺得這個並不符合罷免的爭議所以如果今天我們要修選罷法各位是要查罷免理由上面更為堅強具體不可以有fake news這個我支持但很遺憾的是我看這一次的提出草案竟然是要提高罷免門檻這真是令人匪夷所思 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6229.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6243.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
因為今年從二月到現在我國國會一連串違憲疑慮甚至擴權自肥的行為現在正在釋憲中美國為什麼會有剛剛講的某一些罷免的要求英國有 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6244.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6260.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我跟各位報告美國的國會對於議員有倫理辦公室的要求而且議員甚至在去年有國會的立法委員被驅逐出會他對於國會議員的自律規範可以高到這個程度如果可以這麼高我也可以不用罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6261.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6278.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那在現在的狀況下所有的反歧視性騷擾的種種條文都沒有被立法委員的職權行使法和行為法所通過取而代之的是一連串的擴權調查等等的情況我們如果沒有任何的制度可以來制止國會議員的濫權 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6280.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6294.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
反而要提高人民實現民主的門檻我必須說這真的很讓人民失望也讓民主蒙羞最後敬告我覺得要提出類似提高罷免門檻的委員們要想想看我覺得Respect is earned, not granted |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6297.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6320.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
今天你當選國會議員其實是人民對你非常大的托付剛剛已經有先進提到499號的解釋任何自肥跟利益衝突的法律正是立法委員自己應該好好反省檢討回應民意需求的以上是我針對第二點提高罷免門檻表達不予同意的觀點那在此向各位先進就教謝謝謝謝林志傑教授下一位請張嘉穎教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6343.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6356.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
主席﹚各位委員﹚各位專家﹚學者﹚以及先進﹚大家好﹚還有媒體朋友由於時間關係我以下大概僅就兩個議題來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6358.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6380.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那出發的前提是什麼呢就是選罷法的修訂固然是立法者的形成自由然而必須在合憲的框架內來進行所以雖然剛才有很多很精彩的政策性的討論但是以下我的發言將從公法學的觀點出發那針對兩個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6386.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6386.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
選罷法第75條 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6407.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6433.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
第1項但書就職未滿一年者不得罷免的解釋那在討論提綱以及相關資料裡面其實有提到說那到底禁止的是就是說這個75條第1項但書呢他禁止的是啟動罷免程序還是產生罷免結果呢那剛才也有先進的有一些不同的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6435.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6456.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
但從法律學觀點來解釋,我有以下見解我們在解釋但書的時候,應該要注意前面的那一段所以對於選罷法第75條第一項,應該做一個整全性的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6458.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6460.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
公職人員之罷免得由原選舉區選舉人向選舉委員會提出罷免案 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6485.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6505.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以就法律的解釋來講非常的清楚但說指的就是就職未滿一年者不得進行前階行為那前階行為指的其實就是原選舉區選舉人不得向選舉委員會提出罷免案 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6506.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6533.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那這個才是一個我認為從法律學觀點出發比較嚴謹的一個解釋方式所以那種二分法的提法其實反而是一個誤導問題那在這個對75條第一項的解釋的這個脈絡之下我們來看修正的提案那就修正提案我的見解是如果要去禁止在 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6535 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6554.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
就是說就職未滿一年不得為提議跟連署基本上它對於基本權利已經構成一個十分重大的限制了那我想這個其實是我們憲法學的ABC就基本權利的限制來講呢大體上我們就會透過比例原則來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6556.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6581.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
尤其是因為所涉及到的是非常重大的基本權利一個是罷免權一個是政治性言論也就是屬於高價值言論所以這個時候我們會採取的審查標準其實是嚴格審查標準在結合比例原則跟嚴格審查標準的情況之下這裡我就不再做細部的操作我們可以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6582.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6602.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
無論要去做擴張解釋或是立法禁止呢他違憲的疑慮都非常的大這個是就第一點那就第二點第二個問題就是條高大免門檻呢我的見解先講結論其實也是有很高的違憲的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6605.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6634.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那違憲的一律要分成兩個層面一個是如果就選罷法的修改來提高罷免門檻在一定程度內呢基本上他是一個立法形成自由但是問題是如果這一屆的立法委員他在修訂選罷法提高罷免門檻而適用於當屆的話那麼很顯然呢我們根據4至第499號解釋的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6635.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6663.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
也就是說當時大法官介於國民大會第5次修憲所謂的自肥延任也就是當屆的國民大會代表延長當屆國民大會代表的任期那明顯的就抵觸了修憲的界限也就是自由民主的憲政秩序那更具體的來講呢就是民主國原則而且在程序上有重大明顯瑕疵 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6664.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6685.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那所以從釋字第49號解釋的這樣的一個判決理由來看的話雖然提高罷免門檻他並不是對任期的延長但是呢某個意義上來講我們可以說他是可以相提並論的為什麼因為我們可以舉個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6687.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6713.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
就是投票行為我們可以把它類比於選民與立法委員締結一個民主政治契約而任期跟所謂的撤銷程序就是罷免程序他是契約的必要內容那所以當屆的立委不可以透過修法來提高罷免的門檻為什麼因為這樣就已經去變動了而且是有利於自己的方向來變動這個民主政治契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6715.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6730.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
透過這樣的一個比喻我想可以了解的就是說基本上他已經嚴重的違反民主原則了雖然這裡他沒有延長任期那麼嚴重但是其實從消極面來看他其實不會比較不嚴重所以從這個觀點出發的話如果提高門檻是適用於下一屆的話在不抵觸憲法原則的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6743.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6754.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
剛才提到他是屬於立法者的行程自由但是仍然要考慮目的的正當性以及對於罷免權的影響是否已經符合比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6756.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6776.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那當然這是一個原則性的問題要看到時候具體的這個提案那如果是以目前我看到的草案的話基本上並不是不可以為什麼因為在一個相對合理的範圍內呢如果適用於下一屆基本上就比較沒有問題那至於其他問題例如說有說法認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6780.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6805.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
罷免的票數要跟選舉票數要相當這個其實是一種難訴諸直覺的一種想法為什麼因為罷免跟選舉它是兩種不同的程序兩種不同的參政權的行使而且兩種不同的事實的脈絡為什麼因為剛才也有提到就是簡單來講在單一選區兩票制的情況之下基本上它不會只有一個候選人 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6806.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6807.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
張嘉穎教授 接下來請呂思翰律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6839.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6848.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
主席、各位議會先進、委員、機關代表、早安、瓦薩魯瑪莉瑪莉、烏尼納米烏米桑、羅卡蘇、 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6850.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6872.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
大家好 我是立正委員感謝內政委員會的邀請請代表原住民青年社會實踐協會就本次公職人員選舉罷免法修正草案有關原住民選舉人、被選舉人以及當選人這三個部分向委員會報告首先提到原住民如果是選舉人的時候大概在第9屆立法委員的時候開始比較常被討論到 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6874.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6886.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那部分投開票所的原住民的選舉人數很少雖然程序上選務機關仍然維繫了選舉的祕密性和公平性運作的結果反而使得 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6887.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6909.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
足以間接識別原住民選舉人的投票意向如同間接量票陷入了被盯哨的風險感謝選務機關意識到這個問題從第10屆跟第11屆的原住民立法委員的選舉為例原住民選舉人人數稀少的投票所的數量跟比例都有逐步的下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6911.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6935.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那從今年下半年開始涉及在都市的原住民人數已經超過全體原住民的一半所以未來在不管是中央或地方的選舉這個議題其實也會持續的發生那依照目前公職人員選舉罷免法第17條的戶籍地投票還有投開票所合一的設置的原則所以針對山地跟平地原住民在戶籍地內 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6937.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6964.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
可以重新思考投開票所的規劃尤其是中央選舉在非原住民地區可以設置集中投票所那如果可以進一步的修法擴大不在籍投票適用在原住民的選舉人上在通訊投票提前投票代理投票會增加選舉公平性的疑慮以及選務成本的考量移轉投票其實是目前選務操作過比較保險的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6966.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6982.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那只要執行上不會造成原住民選舉人適用上的爭議還有各地選務人員操作上的困難那專法專章專條專款都是法條體力結構上的變動那建議可以以簡明為宜那再來是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6986.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7013.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
原住民能否參與一般選區的被選舉人的問題那現行民選的總統直轄市縣市首長那除了山地鄉跟直轄市山地原住民區以外的鄉鎮市長里長法律都沒有要求一定要有特定的原住民身份那實踐上呢也有原住民身份跟血緣的候選人還有當選人所以我接下來講的部分其實是主要是針對的是各級民意代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7015.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7042.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那依照公職人員選舉罷免法第35條跟36條原住民的選舉人要依法組成的平地跟山地原住民的選舉區進而產生被選舉人所以不能參加非原住民的公職人員選舉那選區不是地理的區隔那是人的集合那如果修法的不如果要修法的話那就要從源頭的選舉人被選舉人選舉區要一路往下來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7044.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7070.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那當然一位原住民也是一位公民但用公民的身份去參選各級民意代表看起來的確是解除了原住民身份的限制讓原住民在政治上面自由選擇幫原住民代言或幫非原住民代言的機會那另外一種意見是要如何防免幫非原住民代言具原住民身份的代議士反過頭來侵蝕原住民族利益的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7071.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7099.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
比如說﹐在某些原住民保留地﹐被非原住民經常使用的地方那當地的農會跟平權會﹐如果有計劃性的役助支持﹐具原住民身份的代議是﹐進而要求地方或中央﹐去鬆綁原住民保留地﹐對非原住民使用的管理或限制那在這種假想的例子裡面﹐具原住民身份﹐在一般選舉區的被選舉人來說﹐發生了潛在的利益衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7099.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7128.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那這種情況應該要如何防免所以解除原住民被選舉人的限制還有避免原住民被選舉人利益衝突的情況那孰輕孰重又有由賴立法者的智慧那第三呢當原住民是當選人的時候那原住民立法委員的席次已經明定在憲法徵用條文裡面所以在沒有劃設選區的情況下那全國的3D原住民、平地原住民各組成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7129.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7156.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
各組成了原住民選區：分別選出3席那原住民立法委員缺額的時候：不論是重選：或者是降低補選的門檻變成三分之一當然可以及時反映民意：讓原住民族意見的展現：不會因為可規則或不可規則於當選人的事由而被擱置那一旦一缺額就進行補選的話：我們可以想見 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7158.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7182.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那一次的選舉是全國的平地原住民跟山地原住民一起補選那一位缺額的席次所以可能會演變成到最後變成大族的對決的這種態勢而且在極端的情況下也有可能反覆補選造成大族全拿反而沒有辦法能夠整體呈現原住民族的整體意志 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7183.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7201.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所以如果未來法律劃分了原住民立法委員變成單一選區的情況下那立法體力上面當然應該要比照單一選區立委的一任的方式來處理重選為當然就要重選那這樣子就可以即時反映原住民的集體意志 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7202.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7230.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
也可以兼顧選務成本但是在現行法的法制發展下原住民立法委員的一任是比照各級民意代表的情況是缺額達二分之一的時候才要補選那如果從缺額的事由往下分析那目前應該不會有原住民立委當選不足額的情況那這種情況當然也沒有辦法遞補啊那所以可以參照全國不分區立委公職人員選舉罷免法第74條各級民意代表的這樣子的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7235.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7260.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
來有關於地補的規定那法制上面有利可循而且也可以節省這個選舉的成本那如果要採取地補的方式來做這樣子的處理的話那也應該要比照地補的限制比如說如果上司或放棄原住民身份的時候那當然就要解認還有最低得票數的門檻但是在這種情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7262.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7263.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
謝謝李司和李氏現在請陳柏惟委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7302.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7331.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
主席你好黃捷委員你好 群黨的你好緣委員沒來喔還蠻想聽他意見的 來不知道為什麼最近在聊選罷法修法那今天的公聽會是專家教授學者那我算當事人當事人當然要講一些在遇到罷免過程覺得對這個制度有一些見眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7333.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7359.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那首先我想要先講一個概念不要把罷免當成毒蛇猛獸罷免會製造成仇恨對立是因為罷免方的起心動念有邪念所以他才會變成一場戰爭變成一場割喉但如果罷免方的理由正當比如說有請假選總統的比如說有半夜強盜破門的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7361.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7389.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那我覺得你應該要給人家罷免的機會啊那另外一方面行政首長的代呼職守跟議員發聲的路線不同這其實是兩個完全不一樣的概念你不能說左派右派進步保守的理念競爭這個叫做代呼職守嘛可是你如果整個行政首長跟單一選區的立委連人都不見了那當然要有罷免的權利留給人民啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7390.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7412.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
所以不免又讓人家覺得國會是不是又在擴權了怎麼會討論這個議題而且過去的制度明明就有受害者啊真正如果照這個國會多數的版本修下去唯一一個會被罷免的是我們現在的立法院院長欸真的你們要修這種法院長不知道會不會跳起來院長也應該要來發表意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7415.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7437.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
所以修一個法從歷史時間的長度從跨各個政黨的光譜我們要找到一個大家都能夠接受的方案如果只是單純討論%有一點道理但更重要的事情是在罷免的過程他到底為什麼會變成仇恨的我們不能快快樂樂的罷免平平安安的回家嗎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7440.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7464.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
在罷免的期間我遇到幾個狀況跟大家報告也希望這邊的行政官員或是民意代表立法院可以聽聽看我這為數不多的建議首先當然是錯假連署從韓院長在高雄市的7%到我的16%到黃婕的26%到林昶佐的30% |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7468.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7486.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
到高敏玲的75%那4張連署人裡面有3張是錯的是假的不是假的就是死的這合理嗎提出罷免方的比例超過10幾%的剛好都是同一個政黨發起的那這樣子我頭也是暈暈的啊怎麼會說錯假連署是罷免應該要提高門檻的理由咧第二個是空窗期當一個罷免方發動罷免不論他的原因是輸不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7496.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7518.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
想搶回來 覺得沒有選舉很無聊 各種原因該立委啊 也就是我本人他大概要提早三個月到半年 他要花上一定的時間來回應媒體來上節目辯論 來回應一些根本不是他立法委員本業的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7519.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7540.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那這樣子他自然就會讓人家覺得你是不是有一些時間花在不必要的事情上啊沒辦法啊因為罷免方在搞你啊但是你能不悔嗎你也不能不悔啊罷免是人民的權利嘛所以對基本盤不穩以及意識形態極端的人就像統派的韓國瑜跟獨派的陳柏惟他就一定會遇到這個問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7543.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7568.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
所以就我自己的狀況從罷免發動到補選選上林靜儀委員我們的選區有將近4個月的時間是沒有立委的這件事情我看過其他國家的方法他們在罷免啟動之後就讓要選的人都出來選總不會繞了一圈結果又還給原本的人吧第三個還有一個叫募款 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7571.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7581.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
當時在我的選區罕見的贊成反對罷免方有200多塊的招牌全部都是我的臉只是有的是笑的有的是哭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7583.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7601.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那這樣子在罷免方的錢虧無窮無盡的注資的情況下卻不受政治現金的管理而反罷免方不得成立政治現金專戶以及不得這個你知道我們有我們這個民意代表公眾人物就是要登記嘛那我要去哪裡生錢來反對罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7603.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7623.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那不就是站在那邊給人家打嗎那也難怪院長當時面對高雄民意的時候他也只能站在那邊啊因為現在的罷免制度就是對反對罷免方有一定程度的困難啊有人要支持我就說你去買扇子給我去菜市場發你去幫我做文宣你去認兩幾個招牌我口袋裡面都沒有錢可以做這些事所以我們應該把罷免看成一個正常的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7628.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7652.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
只是說他需要啟動門檻的原因是因為我們已經有一個全國性的選舉有四年任期制的民意代表而在這個過程裡面我們真的覺得他太扯了可能是我 我不知道所以要給人民提出罷免的權利你今天又要把罷免門檻提高歷史上罷免投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7654.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7678.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
比率最多 投票率最高的 也是我那一場 也不過才51%的投票率而已你拿來跟他當選 可能全國性投票有75% 80%的選舉來說啊 你的得票數不夠啊 民意不正當啊我最近在看喔 都覺得國民黨在幫我講話 他們都在指涉顏寬恒委員是個輸不起的人我真的替顏委員感到非常的悲傷 怎麼會被同黨同志這樣子講 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7679.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7686.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以嚴委員應該要來講韓院長應該要來講當時發動的前後任主席朱主席要來講蔣主席也要來講我當年在立法院裡面每天上班提出扶國立民的政策結果他的罷免理由虛假他說我沒當兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7702.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7729.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
結果這個人被藍營的立委員告說他強穩說我追打吳怡丁委員可是實際上是吳怡丁委員拿著礦泉水瓶在雜菜一語他說我提告周克齊叫做恐嚇選民結果這個人因為反滲透買票被起訴江啟臣說我開放美豬我要提醒大家立法院現在只有藍白不想過的法案沒有藍白過不了的法案你如果覺得這個是必要之二的話你可以把它改回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7731.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7756.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
胡志強前市長外交部長他擔任罷免陳柏惟社團的管理員廖偉祥的媽媽黃欣慧也是議員王宏威時任的議員跳出來說基進黨不要這麼噁心 異質我們可以罷免人家但不能被罷免葉元之議員跳出來拍影片顏寬恆說當義工趙少康 羅志強 徐巧欣等人無一不語 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7758.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7773.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
但當時的五大黨裡面包含這個綠黨他們都是反對罷免民眾黨主席柯文哲說本黨對此案應保持距離成是個有理想的年輕人實在力量的王婉玉、邱顯智說他們反對罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7774.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7790.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
民進黨說別讓努力的人孤單綠黨說陳柏惟是少數關心醫療政策的立委一人當選全黨服務但罷免一人全黨投入這就是我的親身經驗謝謝大家謝謝陳柏惟委員接下來請李彥榮發言人 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7811.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7830.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
主席各位機關代表以及現場的專家學者及媒體同仁大家好我是目前罷免謝國洋團隊傷害公民參加行動的發言人李彥榮那今天非常有榮幸可以來到這邊然後與大家針對目前選罷法的修正條文以及實務面來進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7832.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7835.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那首先我們在每一次的投票過程當中我們投下的每一票其實都是我們當下對於這位候選人的核心價值有所認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7845.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7861.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
因此在理想的情況下 罷免這一項制度就是當我們在事後發現這一位候選人或是這一位民意代表與當初所說的不同或是與我們自身的核心價值有所衝突時可以有一個挽救的機會而這些都應該是我們現在的言論自由所保障的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7868.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7879.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
而這位公職人員．當我們認為他有所不適任時．並不會因為他只上任一週．一個月或是一年．就從最一開始而對他滿意．而突然轉為十分不滿意．因此對於今天我們在討論．是否要根據未滿一年．不得提起 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7889.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7918.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
罷免案這一事來進行討論時首先現在的現行法規便是在就職未滿一年時不得提出那另一部分如果今天想要討論的是當我這一位民意代表就職未滿一年時我們不得去提議的話或是我們不得去討論的話那是否其實很明顯的限縮到憲法保障人民言論自由的範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7921.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7944.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
但以上我們在討論的都是在一個理想的情況當中畢竟在過去這幾年在台灣的政治的情況下其實我們也看到了多起的惡意罷免那這些惡意罷免其實出現了非常多不知所云甚至是顛倒是非的理由書而這些都是我們可以再精細去討論精心再去注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7945.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7969.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
至於在討論什麼樣的通過門檻才是真正符合民意時我們應該先認知到的是首先大選大選的投票以及當我們在提出罷免案時的投票我們首先會面臨到的狀況本來就不同這兩者本身就不能一概而論首先根據台灣人民對於政治行為的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7970.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7981.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
除非當整體社會有一個風氣是我們此時此刻正在討論政治時我們很難公開的去發言我們對於這一位支持者是贊成還是反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7983.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8004.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
另外一部分現在有非常非常多在外地工作或是讀書的游子那他們對於這些投票其實成本非常非常高那當我們要單單為一個罷免案而來去付出高昂的成本來去做移動的投票時其實這對於某些人來說他們是不會選擇站出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8009.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8034.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
因此我們抓出我們過去投票的數據來看大選平均的投票率大概是7成罷免案只有4成因此以投票率以及以投票率的基數來推導致我們罷免案應該要以同樣的數據來去代表說是否今天的這個罷免案有一定的民意基礎我認為這是非常不合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8036.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8053.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
另一部分當我們在社會在討論罷免案時我們通常我們站出來會講的是我們反對這個人而不是我們支持這個人可是在台灣這個社會要我們站出來反抗比站出來支持某個人的成本還要高昂許多 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8054.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8068.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們可以去想想當今天是大選的時候我選擇站出來去投票身邊的親友以及今天當我們在罷免案時我們站出來投票身邊的親友的反應是否會有所不同那這樣的不同其實就代表著這兩項投票的本質是非常不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8077.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8087.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
當我們選擇出門投票的這個心理的壓力以及當我們在這一個過程中我們在提出自己想法的時候都面臨到指責其實差異都非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8090.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8113.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
因此在這個大選以及我們的罷免投票之間的投票率是否能夠以等價看待我認為這都是可以進一步再去做研擬的罷免門檻這件事情本來就不可以淪為政治的喊價我們都應該要經過詳細的規劃那現場也有非常非常多的專家學者那我也相信這些專家學者可以再進一步提出更詳細的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8116.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8143.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那另一部分其實根據現在的現行法規只有政黨才得以收取罷免活動的政治獻金因此我們身為一個公民團體我們在提出罷免的時候本來就有一定的難度更不論從2月份開始金融的罷免團體不斷的受到打壓、造謠以及公權力的介入跟威脅這些都一再的在顯示公民在行使罷免權時候的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8145.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8174.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那現在我認為我們今天在討論的這一些修正草案是意圖在以一個政黨政治的狀態以政黨政治的大選規格定義罷免行動那現在身為一個已經發起罷免團體並且正在進行式的公民團體我認為這十分的不合理我們當中受到的阻礙跟政黨當初在大選時所遇到的困難或是他們所可以應用的資源其實都有極大的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8176.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8195.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
另一部分當我們討論到所謂的聯署是否應該要加深它的嚴謹度甚至是上綱到我們必須繳交身份證影本時我認為這都大大的無視於人民對於隱私權的在乎以及現今依然有非常多人民對於部分政府濫用公權力的恐懼 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8197.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8225.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
罷免應該是憲法明定賦予人民的權利但我現在看到的事情是在面對人民對於同黨公職人員的失望與批評時某些政治人物並不是選擇修正以及改善而是利用濫用立法權的方式修法以保住席次這些修法都會使得未來罷免權如同虛設但是否也代表著人民之後再也沒有機會監督我們的所有的民意代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8227.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8235.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
維持門檻以及上修門檻到底哪一個動作才是所謂的政治操作當然這不是我說的算我相信大家心中都有答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8237.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8263.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那我因此在這邊我也希望大家可以仔細的去思考當我們在面對罷免以及在面對大選投票時我到底可不可以運用同樣的一個標準也如同前面許多學者所說的現行的選舉制度我們的議員我們的立委以及我們的總統其實投票的方式都有所不同是否能夠用同樣的標準一概而論也是需要再去深思的以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8268.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8269.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
下一位我們請黃婕委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8283.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8310.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
主席還有在場所有的專家學者大家好那我今天除了說代表立法委員來發表意見之外因為我也算是一個過來人啦算是唯一一個台灣政治史上是不同意罷免票大於同意罷免票的一個經驗者來跟大家分享那大家立法院除了韓國瑜黃國昌還有我我們三位都是現任有經歷過罷免經驗的過來人那在這邊分享一下我的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8311.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8320.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
第一,從世界上的民主國家來看,現在大概有75個民主國家,裡面有20幾個國家擁有罷免制度。那在美國其實50個州裡面有19個州是可以罷免州長以及議員的。所以其實大家在討論說台灣到底需不需要罷免制度,我覺得都可以討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8330.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8335.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
因為在每個國家的罷免制度其實都有點不一樣這個細談下去是非常非常複雜的那什麼樣的制度是好我認為民主制度沒有說在哪一個制度一定是最好而是因應這個國家需要的民主的設計都可以來做門檻的上修或下修以及更複雜的包括說行政首長可不可以罷免包括說民意代表可不可以罷免這個其實細談下去有非常多不同種細緻的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8357.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8357.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8386.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8390.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那還有剛剛說的就是到底因為以台灣來說行政首長跟民意代表負責的權利義務其實不太一樣那很多國家其實是針對行政首長因為他擁有執行執政的實權所以才可以發動這個罷免的條件那台灣的現在的這個狀態其實是因為是一概同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8409.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8415.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
就是都可以所以其實應該要再去針對他的權利義務做更細緻的設計這個我也都認同那當然還有的國家例如說瑞士他是可以罷免不分區的可以針對不分區用集體式的罷免制度我認為這個也可以提出來討論所以當然在這麼多複雜的罷免的制度的設計之下台灣現在單一就只有提高罷免的門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8436.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8440.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
而且是為特定的政黨量身訂做的我認為是非常粗糙、非常廉價、也非常沒有正當性的一個修法那再來這個直接提到說罷免的門檻因為有人說罷免的門檻這麼低就是沒有選上的人只要基本盤發動了就可以罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8458.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8464.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
這些主張罷免很容易的人 他們都是假設說最後就會變成政黨的對決那我以自己的經驗為例 當初的通過的門檻大概是七萬兩千票但是當時候的鳳山的議員選舉 就是國民黨要罷免我的對方的這一黨 他們拿了九萬票 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8480.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8483.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
如果他們的假設是說對方的政黨都會發動他們的基本盤來發動其實我就會被罷免了什麼意思呢就是說這個罷免的門檻不能單一的就說政黨對決來看待我認為這個前提非常非常的重要是因為說其實人民都知道說罷免的正當性比一般選舉還要高 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8503.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8526.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
就是他要有一個我真的很想要把你罷下來的理由以及這個人真的很不適任人民才會驅動這個罷免的投票的動力而不是說就是四年一次的選舉投票因為如果真的他這麼不滿意他就是四年再把你換掉就好所以罷免的發動的這個機制其實是需要一個正當性的正當性變得非常非常重要所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8526.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8530.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
以我的例子為例現在為了要保障特定的政黨他們覺得罷免太容易而去拉高這個門檻是真的非常沒有正當性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8538.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8559.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好那再來我認為說這個罷免的成功啊成功與否還是在於說能否成功動員多數的中間的選民就是說大家的正當性到底多數的民眾覺得這個人真的是非常不適應已經影響到我生活的權益所以站出來罷免還有被罷免人他自己的表現也非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8559.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8583.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那以我自己的例子來說我當時的罷免理由幾乎都是虛假的內容錯假的內容包括說什麼我違反香港的國安法那其實根本就第一個香港的國安法與台灣不適用而台灣的國安法也沒有所謂的21條所以它的這個內容與現實是直接是不相符的那所以用這樣子的罷免理由多數的民眾當然就不會認同嘛那那如果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8588.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8617.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
好那最後我必須要講一下說這個罷免的門檻他是一個公共議題可以討論但是不能把公共的議題變成是幫特定的政黨來解套如果只是因為罷免很容易所以就要提高門檻這樣的理由真的真的非常的不充分千萬不要讓這個罷免是作為人民的權利最後為了要自己的利益而變成鳥籠罷免以上是我的建議謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8620.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8620.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
接下來我們請張博洋議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8647.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8673.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
主席以及各位立院現場的先進大家好我是高雄市議員張博洋同時也是臺灣基進黨黨籍的市議員那非常遺憾今天必須要一大早五點多起床搭高鐵來竟然是為了謝國良但是不要誤會我是支持罷免他的所以也很榮幸有這個機會來跟大家分享罷免作為臺灣人民面對不滿意的政治人物面對不適任的政治人物作為一種武器臺灣基進黨我們使用過 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8676.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8676.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8691.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8694.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我支持這項修法的前提是國民黨必須要白紙黑字的告訴臺灣人民這項修法不是為了謝國良 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8718.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8745.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
當然今天我們有看到藍營的智庫在新聞上有說他們有提到一個程序重新的法理他們搬出這個法理說修法後就會適用在進行中的這個案件那也就是說現在修法的話很明顯不管國民黨嘴巴上說是或不是很明顯都會救了謝國良所以我認為在這個情況之下的話如果這項法案現在有這麼嚴重的一個爭議的話那是不是要擱置或者是說我們大家講清楚就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8746.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8775.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
下一任的立委的這個任期我們再來進行相關的修法我們這樣其實才能夠讓台灣社會針對我們國會一個來關乎到台灣人民權益以及台灣長治久安問題的一個修法是真正能夠說服大家說我們真的是為了台灣選罷法整個的完整性跟長期性而不是說今天國民黨他自己的民意代表或他們現在所長要被罷免的時候他們就提出修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8775.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8800.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
同樣的 未來如果有報復性的罷免發生在民進黨的民意代表身上的時候如果由民進黨來提出修法 一樣會面臨到相同的質疑所以我覺得在顧慮到整個台灣公民社會的不管你要說和諧 或者是說我們對於法律我們對於我們國家行政機關我們立法機關的信任度這件事情上我覺得這一次的修法在這個時機點其實是非常不適當的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8802.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8824.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
今天公聽會是要針對修法的建議所以我還是會提出我這邊的幾項建議第一個是這個罷免的政治獻金的部分其實我們在罷韓的那個時候因為罷免方式沒有辦法來提出 申請所謂的政治獻金專戶所以當時的罷韓團體三個 台灣基進黨 公民割草行動 以及WeCare高雄當時我們使用的是台灣基進黨的政治獻金帳戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8825.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8851.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
同樣的這個部分也導致我們內部的整個人力的龐大的耗損但是我們可以看到事業室包含說基隆的這個拆糧行動他們就非常辛苦因為他們沒有辦法一群年輕人他們沒有辦法有一個罷免謝國良的政治獻金賬戶所以罷免案到底在罷免方這邊可不可以有相關合法的政治獻金賬戶我覺得這個專壺的部分應該要在修法當中去被討論到但是我們這次好像只有討論到門檻我覺得比較可惜 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8853.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8876.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那第二個是罷免聯署書各自的部分因為我注意到這次的修法其實有提出說聯署書要附上身分證等等我們先不管當年黃國昌是怎麼主張但我的認定是如果今天我們要去增加我們的聯署書各自認定的整個資訊量甚至是它的這個代表性跟公正性的話那聯署書的收受 收取它真的適合放在公民團體家嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8877.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8901.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
如果今天發動的團體他其實不是一個法律立案的團體他只是可能幾個網紅大家揪在一起說要罷免台灣民眾真的願意不管你今天是藍的還是綠的你真的可以敢把你的聯署書跟你的身分證銀本放在這些人的家裡嗎我們當初罷韓的時候我們怕聯署書被國民黨拿去燒掉甚至怕我們總部被人家放火我們的聯署書沒有一份放在我們的總部我們都放在鄉下的工廠每天用貨車載 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8902.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8902.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8921.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8944.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那另外一個就是單一選區跟複數選區的設計也會有一個問題因為複數選區我們都知道在藍區的綠議員很容易被罷免在綠區的藍議員也很容易被罷免所以這也是為什麼裁量行動進行到尾聲的時候到這個二屆連署書快要截止的時候朱立倫會跳出來一句朱立倫跟這個林濤會跳出來講說可能會針對這個通知委來做出相關的反制行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8944.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8973.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
其實也是一樣的意思因為他們知道基隆藍大於綠嘛所以要罷免綠的罷免最象徵性的我如果今天是國民黨的溫川會我也會主張罷免通知委因為很簡單因為對他們來講這個成本最低所以我們的罷免設計針對復出選區單一選區甚至行政首長我們的標準甚至我們剛講到還有討論到這個里長我們的標準的分層分級我覺得這個部分也必須要在這一次的修法當中應該要去被完整的提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8974.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8989.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
立院是何意志?國民黨在敏感時期提出了一個他們覺得還不錯的方案遭受到社會大眾非常多的非議和質疑目前為止我認為也沒有講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8989.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8990.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9011.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9011.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9032.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9059.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
關切到立法院裡面所有的民意代表甚至全體國人的罷免跟選舉的一個權利那他怎麼會是國民黨一個黨團提案然後大家就針對這個法案討論呢應該是各黨團都應該要有相關的版本才對所以問題還是回到於就是說我們要怎麼樣去理性法我認為國民黨雖然我們是敵對政黨但是我覺得國民黨要想清楚你的法案到底要怎麼去說服人民這個法案是好的這個法案是適合的那我會覺得比較好的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9060.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9060.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
韓國瑜的選票 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9078.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9101.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
罷免韓國瑜的選票高過於韓國瑜當年的當選選票的時候國民黨說這個是民主最悲哀的一天嚴厲譴責這個罷免是一個政治性的動作可是當罷免陳柏惟的選票並沒有高於陳柏惟當時的當選選票的時候國民黨卻說這個是民主的勝利這個是地方民主的勝利 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9102.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9121.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
所以很顯然的這個政黨他並不在乎那個選舉的門檻的調高或者是降低這個並不是他真正在乎的事情他只是現在急了現在有一些他自己個人或者是各政黨自己本身的需求所以他提出了這樣一個法案然後要求全國人民來討論然後要求大家把他吞下去講白了現在確實沒有藍白 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9123.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9134.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
誰知道民眾黨明天會不會突然又同意 對不對所以沒有藍白過不了的法案但是這樣的法案真的能夠讓台灣更好嗎讓我們的選舉辦法更好嗎我覺得是高度的質疑好 謝謝大家好 謝謝現在因為我們請劉淑冰教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9151.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9166.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
主席：立法委員：還有在場的機關代表：各位學者專家及媒體同仁大家好那我今天很高興有機會到大院來分享我們的研究經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9167.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9170.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
今天的一個討論提綱最主要是針對兩者一個是先辦原住民的在籍投票是否是能夠作為我國在做在籍投票當中的一個試金石那第二個部分就是說要對於罷免的這樣的一些制度的實施是不是需要做一些改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9189.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9189.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9210.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9210.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
的確看得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9227.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9227.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9251.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9271.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
投票率顯示出來所謂再級投票對於離島的影響是讓投票率低落是造成的最主要的原因好 那我們繼續再往下看那這邊所呈現出來是這樣子的情況所呈現是投票率是有待提升的這樣的情況那就也是呈現出來的因為目前的再級投票呢他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9273.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9273.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9288.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9291.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
在內政部所提出來的建議當中是以移轉投票為主要的建議方式提倡選民在投票日當天如果沒有辦法去投票的話就是在事前的時間內向副政機關去做個申請之後他就可以在當天去投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9310.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9311.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
投票率大幅提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9327.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9353.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我們也知道不在籍投票的確是要增加在各國裡面是要增加投票率跟所謂的公民參與甚至就深化民主的一種很重要的方式在這邊可是它在做實施的時候有幾項前提是很重要的部分第一個就是信賴就是我信賴是否是一個政治制度第二部分屬於投票技術投票的技術上面它必須要符合到所謂秘密資訊安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9355.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9374.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
正確還要快速那這個情況之下呢我們現在可以聽到是說在196個全世界的國家當中目前有115個國家他是有實行的是不在籍投票制度那我國不在其中但是有必要就是緩快的實施但是在實施中我跟大家講就是說前面已經說這兩大信賴跟技術的問題要去把它解決掉好那這幾個投票的當中我現在列出來這三個應該是有五個那這五個當中呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9384.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9408.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
目前在前面三者他就所謂是在實施的是用的是用的是這個到當地就是在一個這個當地就是投票所去投票的這個時間包括他是不同時間的部分或是上次是到一個投票所去實施這種部分指定投票所去這個部分實施那這個比例當中呢就大概有74%是這種情況的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9411.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9412.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
通訊投票目前全世界有58%的國家實施通訊投票更先進的是10%使用網路投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9427.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9430.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
好那這邊呢當然我們現在知道如果說在網路投票當中尤其像在報稅的時候不是有所謂自然人憑證嗎如果我們慢慢也可以逐步的去實施到這個部分的話其實你報稅都可以那投票應該也不會是大問題但是時間性比較慢慢投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9442.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9442.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
議題公民投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9461.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9461.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9484.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9507.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
好那這邊是我對於那另外包括是說對於原住民投票當中如果說他們有人缺位的時候必須目前的時候是達到二分之一以上才可以做補選這個狀況其實是有點應該為了學這個制度的一致性對於區域立委跟原住民立委這邊應該採取一致的方式就只要有缺應該就可以再補的方式這是我支持是這樣的一個觀點那另外在 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9510.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9530.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們看到的是在罷免相關的修訂這部分我們看到的是罷免它主要的性質是一個輔助的性質輔助的民主制度的性質那最主要的是針對公職人員貪污瀆職或是行為不檢或是施政違背選民意願及地方利益所要做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9531.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9535.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
這個情況之下呢當然有這個目標這個存在的時候那我們看到過去的台灣的這樣的一個罷免的這個制度實施上面在1992年開始到2017我們從這個民主改革之後罷免的過去的在前面這段時間之內的它包括的是投票利率達到50%那同意票呢也要大於不同意票這個情況那這個歷史上是成功率是比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9556.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9560.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
但是在2017年實施之後呢這個部分的那個門檻降低了齁那就是兩個門檻是有效同意票的票數呢必須要多於不同意票那另外第二個門檻是在於說同意票數要達到選舉選區的選舉人數總數差四分之以上才會通過齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9576.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9582.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法當中有兩類公職人員第一類是針對單一選區多數決當選者這部分我認為是OK的原因是因為剛才有提供李燕榮小姐提供的數據目前罷免的制度上投票率大概只有四成 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9600.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9600.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9622.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9628.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
百分之二十的是如果有不同意你的話那這樣子其實還是不會過嘛但是有百分之二十五的情況他去就是說他贊成你去投票支持你這個情況之下的事實上是很清楚的表示你真的做不好再待30秒就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9641.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9665.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那對於復甦選區的部分當選者很容易被罷免的原因是什麼包括是在縣市的議員或是所謂鄉鎮市民代表他們因為當選的比例當選的可能就是百分之五就可以當選了那現在這個情況之下你要百分之二十五罷免的確是很明顯的是他是做得不好那所以也沒有問題但是剛才有很多包括陳柏惟前委員他也有提到是說為什麼現在很大部分就是說既然罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9666.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9667.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進公職人員選舉罷免法實務現況精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9690.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9693.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
簽名或蓋章背註有人檢核就蓋章做更嚴謹的做法用第16任總統副總統嚴蜀仁的格式來看是用切結書的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9711.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9711.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9736.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9736.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
以上是我的意見 謝謝指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9767.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9772.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
謝謝接下來請高津素梅召委發言完之後我們休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9779.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9796.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
主席與與會的專家學者們以及機關代表大家好憲法徵修條文的第4條是原住民族立委席次的保障然後憲法徵修條文的第10條第12項是談原住民族政治參與還有發展的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9796.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9815.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
這些都是憲法明文賦予原住民族參政權的制度性的保障但是我們來看實務上我們卻屢屢發生了權責機關不當的規劃選制或者是在選務作業上面有損及到原住民族的參政權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9816.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9835.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所以今天我就選罷法裡面對原住民選制當中的投票秘密一任限制還有選區的限制三個方向的缺失在這裡跟大家來表達我的意見跟看法那個我先談的是選罷法裡面原住民選制的秘密投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9836.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9851.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們看一下中選會在投開票所設置形式上雖然有保障選舉的秘密性還有它的公平性可是實際上卻因為投開票所設置的規劃不良反而讓人 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9851.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9875.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
兼接識別了原住民選舉人的投票意向這如同兼接的亮票也讓原住民的族人陷入被盯梢的風險我們以2020年立法委員選舉為例全國有17226間的原民立委投票所當中選舉人3人以內的投票所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9879.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9900.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
8176間其中就有926間的選舉人是寧可不去投票的因為他擔心他的投票傾向會被揭露第二個我要再談的是移任限制方面那麼我國立法委員選舉制度在第7屆的選舉時候產生了政策上面的變化我們把區域的立委變更為單一選區制 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9903.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9927.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
並且規範一任任期只要達一年以上就可以進行補選了但是當時也就是在96年的時候選罷法全案修正的時候並沒有同步的調整原住民立法委員出缺的制度原住民立委出缺的時候仍然在目前是要要求缺額達二分之一才可以補選 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9928.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9949.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
也就是說三立原住民立法委員或平立原住民立法委員在他們的各自選區裡面三名立法委中必須要缺而兩名才可以進行補選我認為這是目前選舉制度的荒謬之處大家都知道三園只有三席平原也只有三席 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9950.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9973.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
達到兩個人全有才可以補選也就是說只有一位立法委員在全國性的原住民選區當中替族人發聲跟服務所以非常的荒謬同樣是立法委員的選舉我們會有如此的區別的待遇這無疑是剝奪了原住民的族人透過補選再一次選舉或參政的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9975.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9975.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
選區限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9997.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10025.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
原住民涉及在非原住民族地區今年已經確定超過了全體原住民人口的50%以上而多數原住民跟非原住民地區居住的人們也已經建立起非常深厚的感情連結而原住民也是中華民國的公民本來就應該可以以公民的身份來參選各級的民意代表這是公民的權利也是義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10027.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10043.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
主管機關的相關含釋是說原住民排除在一般選區之外甚至要要求我們的族人如果你要選一般區域的民意代表的話你就必須要放棄原住民的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10044.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10044.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10064.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10080.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
中上所述我強力支持原住民不在籍投票必須先行我有呼籲內政部還有中選會應該要儘速研議原住民不在籍投票先行的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10081.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10108.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
因為上述提到的不管是投票秘密﹐一院限制的缺失﹐我們可以利用原住民不在籍投票的制度來解決﹐這既可以處理投開票所設置不良的問題﹐也可以節省原住民立委補選的行政費用﹐更可以幫助族人省去投票的時候的交通成本﹐以及訂票的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10109.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10124.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
最後我也請在場的各位專家學者也能夠共同來支持來實質保障憲法賦予原住民族的參政權益當然我剛剛聽到了非常多的專家學者對於原住民的選舉制度上 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10125.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10125.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
高津昭緯 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10640.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10640.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
許冠哲副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10657.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10683.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
主席 各位委員 各位與會的先進代表 大家午安 大家好 我是經濟民主聯合許冠哲謝謝大家 謝謝立法院給公民團體這個機會 在這邊表達我們的心聲以下我的簡報 針對程序問題 還有實質內容的問題 來提出我們的觀察 還有建議首先 我們要嚴正地來質疑 這一次立法院內政委員會拍手的邏輯到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10684.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10704.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
各位看到這個簡報左邊的圖是本會期內政委員會已經有提案代審的立法公職人員選舉罷免法的草案總共有17案但是這一次排審只排了7案其他10案去了哪裡為什麼把這10案剔掉為什麼又選了這7案 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10707.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10736.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那我們來看到這七案分別是什麼右邊的表格前面一到五案分別是關於原住民選舉權益問題的內容包括了秘密投票缺額補選的問題移選投票的問題選舉補助的問題這些原住民權益選舉的問題都相當的重要都應該被討論但是第六案明顯是一個跟這個題目完全不相干的條高罷免門檻的修法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10737.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10744.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
在面對質疑之後 看到苗頭不對 國民黨趕快再把第7案 吳秉瑞的提案列入 當成幌子 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10746.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10771.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我們非常大膽的假設中國民黨這一次併成的邏輯就是要以檢討人民投票制度之名來行沒收人民罷免權之實剛剛上一輪 張偉 高金素美委員的發言全部也都是針對原住民選舉權益的問題來討論完全沒有提到調高罷免門檻的事情如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10773.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10796.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
內政委員會真的關注原住民選舉權益的問題為什麼本會期同樣有立法委員所提出的直接定一個新的法關於原住民總統副總統選舉罷免還有原住民立委選舉罷免不在期投票的法案為什麼不一併排審關於同樣是中國國民黨籍鄭天才委員所提出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10798.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10822.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
總統副總統選罷法的修正案關於總統選舉時原住民不在籍的投票為什麼不一併排審難道原住民的選舉權益問題只會發生在立法委員的選舉時候嗎不會發生在總統的時候嗎要秘密保障只要保障立法委員的原住民選舉不用保障原住民在投總統時候的秘密投票嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10824.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10852.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我們可以大膽的假設明天審查會是不是我們可以就集中討論原住民相關選舉的提案然後最後因為時間不足等等的找個因素來就把最後一個調高罷免門檻來用保留送協商的方式一個月協商期之後冷凍期過了之後又可以馬上到二讀來做表決然後再一次的重蹈覆轍國會安全法案一樣的細碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10854.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10859.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
等於說在委員會階段沒有經過實質的討論、審查、表決就要讓這個充滿爭議的法案來通過我想這一點我們要讓台灣的人民知道這個排審邏輯有相當大的瑕疵有相當大來保送調高大美門檻的嫌疑緊接著我們要針對實質的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10874.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10902.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
來討論就職未滿一年者﹐不得為罷免之提議與連署我們認為﹐變相的延長﹐讓這個應該被罷免的爛立委﹐歹戲脫棚的時間各位我們要知道﹐罷免案的程序﹐包括了提議﹐連署﹐最後罷免的程序這之間﹐有非常多﹐時間的規範比如說查對提議的人名冊﹐我們以立法為例﹐要25日查對之後﹐可以有補件﹐或領取連署數的時間﹐10天 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10904.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10917.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
臨選時段有60天再來查對臨選人名冊又有40天接著又有補件或者是公告罷免案成立10天的時間接著我們要在罷免案成立之後20到60日內來進行罷免投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10919.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10940.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
前前後後加起來大概是7個月的時間原本我們推算可揹罷免的時間按照現行的法制就大概是在一年但是你現在立了一個新的法草案之後很可能我們在這一年之內都不能夠提議都不能夠討論都不能再討論你要不要連署你一旦做了這個行為可能就處罰囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10940.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10951.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們變相的中國民黨提案來讓罷免的時間變相的就是就職嘛一年加上大約七個月的時間讓這個應該被罷免的爛立委逮襲脫棚已經違背了原本立法一年內來罷免一年後可以來被罷免這樣的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10961.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10977.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
接著我們要討論有效同意票數需超過被罷免人當選得票數才算通過的內容我們認為這個提案中共國民黨就是正式向台灣人民宣告從此台灣人沒有罷免的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10979.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10994.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我們把近三次 近年三起有關於立法委員被罷免的數據來調出來向大家說明各位從數據上我們明顯的看到投票率跟罷免時的投票率選舉時的投票率 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10995.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10996.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
公職人員選舉罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11015.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11016.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11036.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11036.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
2020年數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11066.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11081.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
公民團體嚴正反對最後我要秀出這張簡報這個照片是6月21號兩個多禮拜前立法院通過否決維持原決議否決行政院所提的復議案針對國會濫權法案之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11084.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11110.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
晚上9點半在立法院的現場我要向各位說明當天群眾沒有任何動員沒有特定政黨的補助車票沒有便當的補助大家願意待到晚上9點半就是因為臺灣人民真的非常關心現在國會的狀況從國會亂權法案到我們提出了有七大項讓臺灣民主倒退的法案其中一項就包括今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11110.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11139.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
要調高人民的罷免權這項法案絕對會引起人民的憤怒絕對會引起人民的關注在當天晚上九點半我們知道復議已經沒有如我們的意但是為什麼大家願意待到這麼晚為什麼到九點半還沒有散去仍有三位人在立法院附近就是因為我們要告訴藍白的立委國會是人民的我們要告訴各位你們是人民所選出來的你們做了不對的事情我們有權利義務責任站出來支持你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11139.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11143.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
也希望你們懸崖勒馬 正是人民的心聲 以上 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位與會的朋友 大家好各位聽我在喊就知道我一開始就要講原名議題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11167.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11189.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
那很榮幸應邀參與此次大院的公聽會那麼接下來我就原民的參政權的部分議題以及罷免制度的這個問題提出我的一些想法首先在原住民參政權的這個部分無論是不在籍投票或者是保障原住民投票的這個秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11190.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11211.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
自然是以提高投票率﹐促進族群成員的參政權的實踐為思考制度的基本原則我們先來看這個不在籍投票的議題其實我們現在看起來就整個制度的研究和輿論的反應整體社會其實對於所謂的不在籍投票基本上是樂觀其成的但是在實務上面不管再潮再野 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11212.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11222.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
講句坦白話各有考量什麼時候才能夠上線實施遙遙無期或者不太信任通信投票制度或者大家不同政黨都在計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11223.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11251.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這個不在籍投票到底對我有利不利但是如果各政黨對於全面實施不在籍投票還有疑慮的時候呢那麼或許我會建議先在總統、副總統以及立委選舉先試辦原住民不在籍投票它會是一個試金石然後再依據實際試辦的這個成效擴展到其他有需要的群體那我的理由有三點第一點從前面有好幾位朋友已經提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11252.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11279.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
由於原住民族群﹐大量的離開戶籍地﹐到外面去工作﹐那麼﹐或者求學﹐這個比例也相當的明顯﹐所以﹐實際上面在許多的投票當中﹐尤其是總統立委的投票當中﹐我們的投票率相當的低﹐等於是我們的參政權變相﹐因為現在的制度﹐變相被剝奪﹐然後第二點﹐對於原住民而言﹐其實﹐不管是總統投總統的票﹐或投原住民的票﹐我們的選區是全國的﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11282.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11294.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以都還是在同一個選區裡面只是投在不同的票箱所以你的工作地如果是在新北的板橋區你在裡面投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11296.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11311.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
或者是你的戶籍地是在花蓮的玉里鎮你在那邊投票其實那個效果基本上是一模一樣的只是投在那個不同的投票箱而已不會有像區域立委如果要去做一轉投票的話呢技術的問題的克服可能會稍微比較困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11312.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11330.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
第三點,大家也不用太過度在意原民的不在籍投票在政治上面有什麼效應我的預估是這樣子,因為原民的不在籍投票所會增加的票數在總統大選上面,講句坦白話,無關輕重因為我們的投票數並不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11332.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11346.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
再來就立委而言我自己的瞭解其實所有的原民立委也沒有辦法能夠把握因者不在意投票所增加的票數對他一定有利還是不利大家還是要各自想辦法去做爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11347.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11368.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
接著我們就來看這個不在籍投票到底該如何實施呢我覺得實施的方式必須要跟原住民的秘密投票的保障問題一併考量在各種不在籍投票的實施方式當中個人認為目前是以移轉投票最為可行最為保險通信投票的話因為社會信任的問題我是覺得暫時先不要採取 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11371.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11394.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
雖然很感謝剛才謝老師支持那個我們原民通訊投票為什麼會這樣認為呢因為其實移轉投票早就在現有之路當中部分實施了比如說選務工作人員他可以在工作地投票所投票在一定條件之下或者我們部分都會去非原民地區的原住民選民其實早就已經開始有比較微型的這種移轉投票的這樣一種狀況出現了 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11398.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11423.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
但是這個問題就會牽涉到說現有涉及都會區或者是非原民地區的原住民他的選舉的這個投票的秘密如何被保障的問題因為講句坦白話雖然在選務機關對於都會區原民的這個投票是容許可以移轉把兩三個投票所的原住民選民移轉到同一個投開票所去投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11425.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11429.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
但是不管中央或地方的選務機關在規劃上面非常的消極 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11431.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11459.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
所以還是產生了蠻多的這個後遺症以我本人是山地原住民為例我的戶籍在非原民地區的宜蘭園山鄉多數的時候地方的選務機關根本就沒有問我就把我放在我所屬李寧的投開票所而且我在那個票箱裡面大概只有1到2票的山地原住民這個搞到我每次投票的時候非常的尷尬還好我的山地原住民的幾位立委朋友他們也不太在乎我投給誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11460.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11462.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
單就保障都會區和非原民地區涉及原民選民的投票秘密而言 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11480.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11498.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
建議朝向由地方選務單位主動去集中投票所的這個方向去規劃尤其在於交通便利地區沒有必要非得在所屬的里聯區進行投票尤其是立委選舉的部分以我為例袁三香他其實可以把所有的原住民選票集中在單一的投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11499.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11519.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
投開票數就可以了 或者是設置到兩或三個而不要把它全部打散我覺得這樣比較可行然後依前面我說的這種所謂的集中投票規劃的這個制度為基礎再去搭配非原民地區未涉及原民選民的投票地點的選擇如此以來非原民地區未涉及原民選民的參政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11520.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11545.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
以及非原民地區所有原住民選民的投票秘密的保障應該有機會一次解決最後我就稍微帶一下我對於罷免制度這個議題的看法我是念政治哲學的講一堂白話近年的罷免風潮其實就我來講已經演變到其實我搞不清楚到底是對於公職人員表現的合理評估還是政黨認同仇恨政治的宣洩管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11546.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11571.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
而且太過度讓我們全民的心思過度限定於其間我認為這對於整個整體的國家發展並不是發展前景並不是一件好事雖然那是一種權力可是權力的過當行使到底對我們國家造成什麼影響這我們必須要思考所以從這個角度來看如果能夠提高罷免門檻可以讓全民的腦袋稍微冷靜一下的話或許我是支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11571.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11590.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
但是如果提高罷免門檻其實也沒有辦法去緩和全民情緒的話你提高罷免門檻有的時候其實也是多餘的最後我要引用我們原住民族卑南族的前輩孫大川老師他在1995年於夾縫中的族群建構這本書裡面的一段文字當作結語 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11592.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11597.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
經過一百年的發展,民族的根苗始終在族群內鬥的邊緣苟延殘喘。即使以民主化發展較為健康的台灣經驗來看,1970年代之後,族群關係反而因權力鬥爭而有日益惡化的現象。 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11607.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11632.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
看來漢族一百年的民主路程是白走了或許我們真該停下腳步 釐清並嚴肅檢討我們的民族病理該是民族感情的就交給感情來處理處理不了就應當學習以更大的民族來解決爭端我們相信以省籍或地域觀念為基礎的台灣本土化運動從原住民的觀點來說是不可理解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11632.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11640.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
以歷史仇恨的清算為出發點的權力重組只有加深這塊土地上的罪惡以上 吳林郎 謝謝各位謝謝接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11657.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11685.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
主席與會的先進我想今天我們的公聽會主題主要是針對在原住民參政權在選罷法當中如何設計規範但是事實上很熱門的大家關心的就是罷免門檻的提高這一題其實從過去長期觀察台灣的罷免的發起跟成功和失敗的例子其實有些根本的思維要做釐清首先我們有人提到分類我們的民選公職人員有首長行政首長跟民意代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11685.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11702.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
民意代表的部分有單一選區跟複數選區單一選區的民意代表的選舉模式當然相較於行政首長是相近的因此這種情況之下選民意識的表達透過多個候選人的競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11703.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11704.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11720.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11720.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11736.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11758.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
有投票率有100位公民有超過一半來參與這次公民投票而參與投票當中贊成的多於反對那當然就是超過四分之一贊成的顯然超過四分之一如果贊成多於反對而且要多於四分之一就表示出席投票者有過半數來支持這個公民投票案 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11758.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11771.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
所以如果用這個角度來思考,現行的罷免門檻有點是對於被提起罷免提案的公職人員進行一次類似公民投票的信任投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11772.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11790.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那麼從這個角度來看我們再回到第一個題目來看那到底單一選區跟複數選區就現實在操作上是不是出現了不一致的情況沒錯目前單一選區的公職人員的罷免門檻通常低於他的當選門檻可是相對的多席次的複數選區的民意代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11791.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11811.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
他的罷免門檻是遠高於他的當選門檻所以我們用門檻門檻這個字來思考就忽略了其實罷免某個程度上他並不是針對該當選者受害的權利而是我要說的第三點形同對該次選區的公職人員進行一個不信任投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11812.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11829.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
換言之目前的罷免的提議就可以視同為是不信任案的提出達到了二階段滿足了罷免門檻視同對於該選區的公職人員的一種不信任那接下來做什麼事情呢接下來就類似在一般內閣各國國家當 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11832.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11851.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
對於內閣或對於國會的執政者有達到不信任的時候那通常要重新尋求民意是否支持支持誰所以接下來就是進行一個正式的選舉有沒有這樣的例子呢 有第四點我要說的是在現行美國加州的州長 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11852.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11874.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
美國加州的州長的罷免制度他就是當這個目前的美國加州州長的罷免成案有三次最近在2022年那他的情況是怎樣先任的州長經過公民連署達到了罷免成立案的門檻之後那麼就擇定一天同時進行兩項投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11877.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11882.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
第一項投票要同意是否罷免現職的這位州長那規定要罷免過50%這個罷免案才能夠同意但是同時選民會投下一個什麼票投下誰來接任的投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11894.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11915.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那當然現任面臨被罷免的州長﹖他也可以選擇同時列名在其上在這種情況之下﹖如果說第一項的同意票沒有過半數那第二項的第一名﹖就是沒有被罷免成功當然現任州長﹖不管你第二項的投票第一名是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11916.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11942.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
有可能 第二項投票的第一名 州長沒有第一名 州長拿到45%第一名呢 拿到46%可是呢 州長在罷免同意票上呢 卻沒有過半 這時候州長就沒有被罷免但是如果州長被罷免了 那麼就由第二項的最高票來繼任州長當然啦 那如果最高票還是原任的州長呢 那就由次高票來擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11943.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11961.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
所以以這樣的思考來看,這樣的一個罷免的設計,他就無所...他當然還是有一個罷免門檻的過關但是呢,他同時解決了選舉的經濟問題我們現在看到了目前前高雄市長被罷免的情況他在罷免之後,還要再進行辦理補選 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11962.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11962.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
公職人員選舉法實務現況精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11983.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11998.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我想這就涉及到罷免不得進行宣傳相關的對於罷免一種消極的規定所以如果從這樣來算我們有三個問題希望後續能夠思考第一罷免的對象要不要區分行政首長跟民意代表第二罷免要不要區分單一選區跟複數選區 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12000.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12018.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
第三﹐罷免的同時是不是要同時並同設計接任人選﹐如果罷免成功﹐接任人選的選舉﹐以便讓整個社會的民意﹐在同時去除原任者之後﹐可以順利的馬上的產生下一位﹐值得民意附託的人﹐以上接下來我們請簡年佑同學 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12033.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12048.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
主席：各位委員：在場各位先進大家好我是簡年佑我的阿美族名是阿貴因為比較接近這個午餐時間我可能就盡快的提出我的一些看法跟建議來救教各位那也包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12048.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12049.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
公職人員選舉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12073.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12074.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12088.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12109.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
提出修法的法案當中我們可以看到包括今天的公聽會也是一樣有一大部分的學者專家都在討論這個一般選區的選舉罷免尤其在罷免的部分但是也比如說像我跟剛剛老師一些部分的只針對這個原住民族的選舉罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12111.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12119.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
但我認為這個立法跟修法應該是要有邏輯一致性的就包括說我們今天在討論選舉罷免的時候是不是應該把 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12125.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12153.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
包括全部的選舉罷免會發生的各個群體放在一起討論變得好像我們今天好聽一點是在講說希望也透過這個罷免條文的高度爭議性讓社會大眾也看到原住民族參政權利現在目前受限的狀況但是講難聽一點也等於是把這個原住民族現在參政權利的受限 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12154.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12157.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
當作是討論罷免的時候 拿來作為一個包裝跟裝飾 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12159.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12183.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
第三點我要針對的是提綱裡面也有提出說原住民族的選舉跟罷免是不是應該要訂定專法或者是說在現行的這些公職人員選罷法裡面進行討論我個人的建議是我認為應該要考慮由專法來訂定理由是在於說我接下來再進一步的說明各項點次 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12185.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12209.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
第一個是我們在討論原住民族參政權利的時候應該是要注意到我們的憲法當中的要求其實是跟一般選區的選舉人有別的我們在定定或是說在法律要完善這個憲法權利的當中應該要優先的考慮的是原住民族參政權的實質平等以及原住民族最後要達到自治自決的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12210.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12229.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這個才是我們在框定這些選舉罷免讓原住民族參政包括選舉跟被選舉權的時候應該要考慮的立法目的這是跟一般選區的一般選舉人所要考慮的立法目的可能就有一個前提上的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12230.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12255.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
好那接下來針對各個點字包括這個不在籍投票我這邊要提出的看法是通訊投票跟移轉投票是不同的因為就如同我剛剛講的這個原住民族的選制在我們目前的規定上本來就是如果在立法委員而言是全國的選區那中間是區分山園跟平原 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12255.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12255.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
公職人員選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12275.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12289.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
全人要投票的族人要主動提出移轉投票的申請但是我們今天看到中選會提供的報告當中也有說這幾年陸續都已經在針對投開票所的合併做出一些努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12291.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12312.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以在這個事情上面應該要由族人主動來提出還是說中選會繼續依照目前的努力方向去把個別的投開票所合併在一起讓他投票跟開票的時候可以維持他的秘密投票被保障這件事情確實是立法形成的自由但是這個中選會的報告提出說近幾年以11屆來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12321.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12336.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
原住民的選舉人只有一個人的投票所的比率已經降到了這個5%或是6%不過我們要考量的是個人的基本權利原住民族的參政權利即使今天被形同量票的只有一張票 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12337.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12358.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
被限制或剝奪基本權利的族人只有一個人那他確實還是一樣是憲法所不允許的所以我們應該要在這個修法當中再盡量給這個移轉投票一些空間但是這個也提醒我們說在進行這些立法先前我們必須要進到一定的立法事實調查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12359.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12360.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
在原住民族的選舉當中﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12384.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12400.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
立委跟總統也是跟其他的所有的主流社會的投票人一樣是一起進行的如果我們今天只修了公職人員選舉罷免法針對立委的部分可以允許原住民族族人做引轉投票的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12403.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12428.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
試問有多少人會願意只為了投下這個立委的選票但是他不考慮去投總統的票所以我的意思是說這個移轉投票如果只針對立委來進行修正的話根本也不太可能去達到提高原住民族族人投票意願的這個目的所以我想這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12430.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12458.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
立法的邏輯一致性應該是要一併的考量的那針對這個原住民族委員的遞補或是有缺額的時候應該要遞補或是補選我想這個部分會擁有更多的立法形成自由的空間只是目前的這個缺額要達二分之一以上才可以進行補選的規定是已經嚴重的侵害到原住民族的 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12459.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12489.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
政治權利我想這是毋庸置疑的最後想針對的是這個一般選區跟原住民選區如果是原住民族族人的被選舉權的這個部分他在目前依照這個內政部的意見可能都是說你一定要放棄你的原住民身份才可以登記為一般選區的被選舉人但是也如同我今天作為一個阿美族身份的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12490.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12492.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
投票人我可以在這裡跟大家討論一般選舉的這個選舉跟罷免的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12500.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12501.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我的發言意見到這邊 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12527.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12532.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
主席,非常謝謝今天所出席的包括各位學者、專家、公民團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12554.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12580.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
還有很多委員的一些建議那我想在今天的建議的內容的部分當然除了原住民的不在籍投票還有投票因應以何種方式的處理那另外也有包括對於保障原住民的參政權還有就是就原民的委員的缺額會如何來做補選或者是地補那甚至還有包括剛剛也有談到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12582.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12583.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
原住民是否可以參與一般選舉的議題? |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12603.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12604.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12633.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12636.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
首先謝謝各位委員對於原住民有關參政的相關提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12652.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12677.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那剛剛提到不在籍投票這個部分大家討論很多那因為原住民剛剛也有學者提到今年的五月遷居到都會應就學就業醫療等這樣的遷居都會區的人口已經超過五成那另外為了要提高他的投票率有關不在籍的投票這個部分的討論非常多而且有各種的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12678.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12706.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
也有它的優點缺點那我們也知道內政部曾經在102年還有105年曾經提出總統副總統選舉罷免以及公民投票法等修正的草案有多規定規劃以全國為投票的行使範圍而且選票也就一種選務作業也就最單純那以確保政策成功的實施所以原住民的選舉政府總統還有立法委員的部分也是以全國為投票的行使範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12707.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12731.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
選票為比較單一所以在整個政治信任度跟選務作業如果可行性的前提下本會也支持先行辦理原住民投票以不在籍投票的方式來辦理另外也提到所謂的另外特別提到原住民立委席次缺額應採取補選制度或者替補的部分有關這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12736.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12758.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
大院的法治局在100年3月也做過研究報告就基於民主的正當性以及改革不宜過大的兩項考量的因素也建議刪除原住民立法委員選舉區域缺額補選門檻的限制使原住民的立委跟一般區域立委的補選能夠一致來進行補選這樣一個議案那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12762.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12762.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12780.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12795.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我們各與會的學者專家我們機關的所有的與會的代表在座的所有的媒體女士先生大家好中選會在這邊報告也非常感謝今天聆聽到非常多學者專家我們機關代表非常精闢的相關的一個論點 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12801.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12806.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那有關這個選罷法的一個今天的這個將相關修法的一個精進的公聽會那就選務機關來說我們一切就是依我們相關選罷法的規定來辦理各項的選務的籌辦的工作那有關保障我們原住民的秘密投票的這一個區塊這幾年來我們始終一直在持續的努力希望把這個原住民能夠有一人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12830.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12834.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
這個選舉人的投票所來做合併希望能夠保障這樣的一個秘密投票未來我們也會持續跟原民會這邊來加強各地原住民這個服務的人員來達到徵詢這個選舉人的意願然後增加這樣的一個整併然後保障了我們原住民的秘密投票以上補充 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12864.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12866.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
法務部法制司 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12877.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12891.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
主席 各位委員 與會的各位先進 各機關的代表就今天所討論的各項議題 裡面有牽涉到選舉罷免法的相關條文適用的部分我們尊重我們選政機關 主管機關跟選務主管機關的一個選擇的說明跟判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12896.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12896.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
立法院第11屆第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12916.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12938.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
至於就不在己投票的實施的方式﹖國內外各種方式各有其利弊﹖沒有哪一種方式是不需要成本的﹖不過因為在現場的框架秩序底下這些都是可以討論的﹖也牽涉到主管機關的職權﹖跟大院在立法政策上的選擇﹖我們也源於尊重﹖其他就引用我們的書面報告以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12942.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12965.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
謝謝感謝各位專家學者提供的寶貴的意見所有出列席人員的發言跟提供的書面資料除刊登公報外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有出列席人員參考再次感謝各位的參與那今天有為各位準備便當我們今天的這個公聽會到這邊結束謝謝現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12984.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12987.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13015.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13015.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
公職人員選舉 |