| IVOD_ID |
160550 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160550 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-23T11:49:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-23T12:06:51+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:08 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0c4ddf7513a98be6465a835c60a672e28ca7a32b531de3e8018d508fe8f4599eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:49:43 - 12:06:51 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
三、審查委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
四、審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
五、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。
七、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。
八、審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案。
九、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案。
十、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
十一、審查委員魯明哲等18人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
【詢答及處理】
【4月23日及24日兩天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好 劉部長有請抱歉抱歉 我以為你要請署長所以我就先下去 抱歉抱歉張委員好來 我來問你一個可能是這個世紀啊最大的烏龍 最大的藻民而且應該是要國賠保定4月2號 移民署啊寄了一萬多份的這個通知給這個陸配啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
39.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
結果搞了一個大烏龍竟然有些子女啊根本就沒有大陸的這個戶籍啊你們全部把它寄出去對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
43.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
72.733 |
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他們沒有來報告這件事嗎我跟委員報告一下應該是這樣講就是說我們叫陸配陸配子女他是因為跟我們台灣人結婚之後那當時他因為沒有任何身份證他可能是一歲或是三歲以下所以他就跟著媽媽或是跟著爸爸一起回來台灣那我們在寄發這些信件出去的時候就一併寄發就是以這樣子為原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
74.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
92.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那事後移民署跟我報告之後我們有請移民署要再跟所謂的當時並沒有任何中國身份證或是中國的戶籍證明的這些要再說明清楚那可能我們說明的不是非常清楚所以我在這邊先跟當時並沒有任何中國身份證件的這些年輕的台灣的國民說抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
102.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
130.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
你慎重的跟他們道歉嘛,對不對第一個,我們先把這個大烏龍,大枣餅先把它弄清楚部長今天也清楚道歉了那這個事情為什麼會發生就是這些年輕的小孩,他們跟陸配是掛在一起的那你之前你移民署跟陸委會你要寄出這個通知之前你是要他去補這個,放棄這個大陸戶籍他本來就沒有嘛所以這是政府的一個失職了那我進一步問喔,阿沒有要改觀所以你今天道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
131.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
141.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
你再補季一個,跟他講說我們之前作業失誤了嘛對不對日夜更嚴重啊,保證你這個從4月,我告訴你這個比較嚴重你4月2號就季了,到現在已經三個禮拜了有些人可能已經回到大陸去對不對,放棄大陸戶籍這些東西,本來就沒東西嘛你無中生有嘛,那這個要不要國賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
153.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
172.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
報告委員我先來跟委員說明一下剛剛你所提到的部分雖然說他在當時並沒有中國大陸的身份證件但是他是在中國大陸出生跟原生地是在台灣確定還是不太一樣所以我們在這一次郵入委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
173.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
202.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
來指導我們的移民署所處理的有實際困難案件的協處機制裡面有一項有六項是拒絕的拒絕來替代繳付這個除籍的證明就是在中國大陸出生學齡前也就是未滿七歲以前返台定居主張從未在陸涉及經移民署和確認者也就是說我們還是請他要把這個那個主張沒有在大陸涉及的這個證明讓移民署來確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
203.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
220.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那個委員您先聽我說明我要這樣提的原因是這樣子可能委員大家都忘了一件事情就是說前一陣子有一位現在在國防部服兵役的人他也是就是類似委員剛剛所提的這個樣態但是呢他的媽媽在沒有告知這位這個軍人的狀況之下幫他在中國大陸申請了身份證件 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
229.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
257.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
但是呢他自己跟國防部講說他不要中國大陸的身份證件所以變成我們有知道這樣狀態之後也開了一個委員會來確認說他其實主張的因為我們台灣的戶籍跟國籍呢跟中國大陸是互斥的只能有一個他希望維持有台灣的身份證跟台灣的戶籍所以我們就請他用拒絕的方式然後國防部還是仍然請他留在國防部擔任職業軍人的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
258.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
266.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
也就是說因為有這樣子的案例發生之後才會讓我們警覺到說我們其實應該要全面性的去清查有這樣的狀態但是會發生有一些困擾就是您剛所說的也許他20年來他從來沒有離開過台灣但是呢他的父親或者是母親是否有幫他申請中國大陸那邊的證件我們也必須他來跟我們確認清楚那處理清楚以後大概就不會有其他的滋擾會再發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
286.743 |
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314.191 |
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這個大烏龍跟大掃民最根本的是什麼你根本就不應該你剛已經道歉了嘛不是我是說對他們造成困擾對他們造成了困擾可是我剛也跟你舉這個職業軍人的案例了啊這個職業軍人的案例了啊因為有這個職業軍人的案例說我們還是需要做這樣的處理才能做全面的清查你剛已經道歉了要矯正這個大烏龍第一個你要出去之前你就要先查清楚我們接受委員的批評移民署跟陸委會主委還有辦公室解釋嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
315.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
335.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他說你們手上都有資料啊你們應該是寄出去之前你就知道好 例如說劉四芳有大陸這個戶籍你要去放棄張祺凱沒有你怎麼可以寄給張祺凱陸會主委承認啊所以第一個這是個烏龍第二個他明確講你們手上都有嘛移民署跟陸委會都有嘛對不對你要先簽過啊就是因為你沒簽過嘛所以我才做第二個要求喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
336.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
349.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第二要求我是剛講的你寄給人家他明明沒有大陸戶籍你寄去已經是老民了所以他如果造成已經過去了花了錢了機票錢又沒有拿到你要國賠這是一個第二個第二個更重要的你從現在開始你有責任舉證責任在你啊不是那個你隨便寄個通知說欸張其凱你有你就要回大陸去 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
357.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
383.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
陸委主委也承認啊 他說你們是有辦法查到的只要一通電話 或者到移民署 到陸委會去我可以清楚知道說我在大陸有沒有戶籍嘛他跟我講 連找哪個地方的公安 你們都可以幫忙啊現在問題是 雖然你們都沒做啊那陸委會願意幫忙 我們也願意遵照陸委會的指示來辦理對啊 現在就是政治人物就是卡電話連移民署電話都擋不進去嘛然後去了你們移民署之後 那你就回大陸去 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
384.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
406.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
就造成這樣一個擾民嘛,這是一個很大問題,所以我具體,我先跟你講一下這這個事情很嚴重,老實講,這是人間悲劇耶你不曉得你們那個一萬多封信一出去,全台灣幾十萬陸配很多家裡面那個,兵荒馬亂,雞尾狗跳的那可能如果被你們註銷,或者要驅逐出境,那就變兩岸的人球,台中也沒有了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
407.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
437.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
多少家庭因為這樣子 最近這一個多月 將近一個月的時間家裡面產生多大一個變化 多大一個擔心我列幾個個案來給你聽我大概搜到幾百件 裡面有好幾件都是你們自己民進黨的支持者你們真的挖的 不是只有台灣的民主法治這個根你們連民進黨跟青鳥都跳起來了有一個青鳥 一個年輕的 他在留言這個你在網路上都可以查得到一共我從剛開始大半年我就去連署了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
438.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
463.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
連二階段的連署他都去參加了連他都擔心說那個門檻那麼高會不會不夠結果啊他說昨天我完全改變我的立場了因為我媽媽也收到這封最近鬧得很大的通知書他說不是我們辦不到啊可是我們當初來台灣的時候是依法辦理我們三四十年前資料都給你了是你政府沒有保存結果你現在要我們自己承擔還要去辦一趟 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
465.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
469.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
一共啊 你政府也沒有想到先不要講說回去辦啦 工作要請假要請假捏你要限制他三個月內 還有機票錢這個錢不都要人家自己負擔他講說如果有一個是反共的 網路上一查會不會回不來所以他最後做了一個結論叫什麼我們可以這樣再繼續搞分化嗎瘋狂瘋起來不分敵我今天分化中配 下次又是哪個族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
493.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
497.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
到時候我還要去跟你大連署一起去反共嗎另外一位年輕人他在這裡怎麼說他說我媽媽已經嫁來台灣三十幾年了1990年初那時候要來台灣依親一定還要到香港去辦一個中國大陸災包救濟總會提出來的中國除籍證明那時候可能連海基會都沒有他們證件都給你了結果你現在已經過了三十年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
523.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
535.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你的一個掛號信說移民署說我沒有資料你趕快給我補一個除籍的這個證明欸拜託勒 他說哈囉30年前欸 正本都被收走了你還要我媽媽飛去家鄉證明自己曾經是中國籍然後自己已經除籍了他說我媽媽拿台灣身份證台灣的護照繳健保費繳稅繳了30幾年他現在就是一個台灣人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
547.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
569.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
結果今天政府你隨便寄了一紙信過去麻煩你要趕快證明,不然三個月你就被趕出台灣了這些東西裡面都說的都是你民進黨自己的嘴巴,是青鳥你這不是挖到自己根嗎來保定我們做個最具體的啦我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了修正草案兩岸人民關係條例的這個修正案我們明確的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
571.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
599.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
民國93年3月1號就是你這次修法實施之前的已經來定居了這時間真的太久了啦21年前保證包括你我們兩個職財阿固你要找21年前的東西也很難找在這個時間點以前全部改成一例都是可以拒絕的那之後現在都我會提出六大列排除嘛對不對六大列排除如果是在93年93年3月1號以後的範圍跟方法你們自己來定那之前的全部用拒絕的方式來解決第一件在我剛才說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
601.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
619.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
陸委會主委跟副主委然後辦公室他說你們都有資料啊所以現在他們只要任何陸配或者是二代只要到你們的移民署去只要到陸委會去你們要幫他查出來到底我在台中有護金嗎好不好你不要常常跑一趟又辦不到然後第三個是我剛剛講的你剛剛講那個補破網你剛剛部長你說你倒楣嗎那你怎麼去補正你所以縣市之外你所以應該去一個函 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
631.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
644.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你給人家一個函帳讓人家困擾你是不是一個禮拜內由移民署去個函說我之前走不上去了我也道歉了你不用回大陸去這是第三點第四個你現在叫他三個月要辦完從你4月2號發出去現在已經三個禮拜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
649.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
664.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
時間太短了要不要把這個時間延長為兩年另外有人在反應你移民署電話就打不通嘛你提供了一個懶人包給大家看怎麼去辦的同時能不能在一個月內趕快北中南辦一個大型的說明會跟民眾講清楚要怎麼辦可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
667.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
675.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我先從第五項開始答了那個移民署現在不是只有移民署包括各地的這個國境警察或者是專情隊都有開放所以過去從4月21號我們開始開放申請的部分到目前為止呢現在電話我所了解比較沒有這樣子的一個抱怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
685.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
710.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
4月21號以後就有接種21號的時候我們跟陸委會已經同時把要拒絕的這個六項樣態呢都已經公佈在網站上面包括您剛剛所提的如果有老媽媽在年滿70歲或者是說104年1月1號的時候都沒有到大陸去的話他其實這樣子的樣態他就已經不需要再具備說要再回去中國大陸所以這個您所提到的不管是不方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
711.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
715.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
或者是不能夠譬如說政治的因素譬如說像文化界的複查先生那個部分我們都已經列進去我們現在要處理的是不願不願的理由我們也提到如果他是屬於低收入戶要購買機票有困難的話也可以告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
728.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
753.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
還有另外一個就是他現在可能是重大傷病根本不方便這個走動這個部分我們都列進去但是我們這樣的宣告他還是要來告訴我們說他哪裡的不方便為原則那同時你提到的就是說為什麼這個法律呢在二三十年前就定了為什麼現在才執行我們也了解這個部分所以我們去問過了在行政執行上面的部分呢就是按照行政程序法的第131條 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
755.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
770.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
請求權時效的消滅的部分呢他的請求權呢是如果是義務的話不是請求權時效消滅而是權力的消滅這個部分呢我們也查過憲法上面的相關的解釋的部分的規範那以上幾點提供給張委員參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
772.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
792.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
政府在民國93年3月1號修法以後實施這個新的辦法嘛第一時間真的是太久這是一個第二個責任在你啊你代夫職守那你現在把這個全部的責任甩鍋叫民眾去負擔老實講這個也不公平是我想正我的責任我剛剛跟你講但是我們現在如果沒有做的話就是我們堵職啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
794.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
816.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
你現在賭職 你們在21年前就賭職了啊是不是你現在甩鍋叫民眾去處理 你應該用一個比較完整比較能夠讓民眾解決問題的方法嘛所以我剛剛主動提了 我們提了你們現在的六大排除 你說你們解決方案就六大排除嗎太窄化了 你現在解決了大概是打折打折打折 再打折解決了一小部分的人嘛 你就把他全部放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
817.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
838.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
全部放寬不要只採用六大類的牌子怎麼會不符合法律上面的規範怎麼會不符合呢那我們就修法啊台灣民眾黨非常負責任我們提出修法我們非常負責任我就是在你執行之前的民國九十三年的三類一號之前的一定用拒絕的方式不是只有六大類全部都可以用拒絕的那在這個時間點之後的範圍我們就授權由 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
841.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
863.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
入委會跟內政部你再訂一個標準出來可是我剛剛明確講了民眾清楚的反映你的六類的排除範圍太窄太小了我們要照顧全部的民眾報告委員您可以去問一下這兩天在移民署裡面辦理的部分其實都還算是很順利如果有任何疑慮的話我們還是會充分來說明那天入委會主委跟副主委有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
863.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
892.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
但是現在我們這邊申請案子非常多有任何宜蘭雜症進來他們有困擾我們現在都把案子就轉到你移民署跟陸委會去了我們希望你速度要加快可是我剛講的是根本要解決的一個方案第一個不要再出現去了找不到人或者電話找不到打不通這個事情而且要幫忙解決問題特別剛講的陸委會主委承諾我的他去了他可以馬上查清楚他到底在大陸我沒有戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
893.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
913.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個之前一團亂啊這個是你們有責任的舉證責任而且有公權力嘛你們才查得到嘛所以要讓全國民眾知道喔你從今天開始你只要去移民署去陸委會你就會很清楚知道說你在大陸到底有沒有戶籍有的話甚至你要到哪一個公安去辦這陸委會主委都有承諾了我們清楚把它講清楚那第二個根本要解決問題我剛才說的時間太久遠了21年前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
916.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
934.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你也允許六大類的拒絕就全面在民國93.3例以後 全面的允許他拒絕至於之後的 我們就授權你們去把它訂清楚把這個六大類排除 再擴大一點好不好 不過我們來解決問題我們會提出修法 已經會送到委員會去審查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
935.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
959.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們來檢討改進因為這個事情影響真的很大我們來檢討改進但是法律的一致性還是要一致執行比較好可是政府自己的事實跟事物不要讓民眾來承受這種事不能有破口跟天窗那是一個家破人亡我們沒有造成家破人亡啊你如果把它取消了它的戶籍現在沒有這樣的案例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
960.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
988.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
你現在不是現在進行事嗎?現在多少家庭在擔心這個事情?所以部長你是明確做先事不會有取消任何人戶籍然後不會把人起訴嗎?我們是依法辦事我們是依法行政我們依法行政我們沒有法將單要你保證你又不能保證所以這個問題存在嘛我們要去把這個問題要解決啊就好像我們在處理那個陸配如果陸配裡面有人是帶有那個特殊任務來的時候你要不要處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
989.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1009.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
要不要處理你現在在處理這個事情把他處理好如果有特殊的你就特殊去處理嘛是所以如果你一律用拒絕的方式的話反而是包庇跟姑息不要把全部的陸配都想成是有問題的沒有是不是這樣我們已經講得非常清楚了我們非常尊重但是台灣是一個有法律的地方我們是按照法律你們把每個人都當成是有問題在處理嘛是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1011.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1015.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們後面還會有這個相關的業務報告的時間然後修法我們也都會尊重那請劉副長也我們都花點時間大家彼此討論OK好不好不好意思謝謝 |