| IVOD_ID |
160526 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160526 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-35-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-23T11:34:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-23T11:44:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:54 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc07e1588fd78b53e159ac021369aff85ba9a3354dc8dbd3a6240a1818b981201f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪孟楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:34:05 - 11:44:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具體作法」，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.546 |
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3.89 |
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主席謝謝麻煩請外交部次長跟國安局副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
8.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
33.82 |
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委員好 市長好 副局長我先請教一下副局長好不好副局長 委員好這個媒體報導說前軍情局局長也曾經示警說現在有可能共諜在台灣有超過五千名以上這樣的一個數字因為據報導講說1999年推估約差不多兩千名那過去這段時間增加了變五千名以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
34.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
58.411 |
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涵瓜可能政府單位涵瓜可能企業民間等等的這樣的數字是不是危言聳聽還是確有其事這個是他的一個推估不過我們的一個掌握了解是目前來講是沒有那麼多人沒那麼多人對我們實際上有受理的有情資的一個收報的部分是沒有這麼多人是 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
59.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
69.998 |
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掌握沒有那麼多人是我以為你會講的是說更多人因為現在感覺好像每個地方民進黨政府上任之後很多部會等等的都被共諜深入啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
71.232 |
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97.712 |
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我們當然很擔憂我再一次強調站在這個立場上面中華民國的主權立場不容任何人侵犯我覺得這個是我自始至終的一個立場跟態度台灣2320萬人是我們共同維護的價值所以我們當然要用力的來去把任何的間諜都給交出來國安局昨天有講說有六大的反制措施對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
98.803 |
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113.141 |
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有嗎好副議長其實本期有看了一下六大反制措施啊國安局不是第一天成立所以其實這六大反制措施過去有沒有做有做但我覺得重點在於一件事情重點在哪邊你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
114.15 |
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135.271 |
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有沒有落實啊我們其實法令都有啊2019年的時候那時候民進黨國會多數過半一次要通過國安法也通過啦我們有法在那邊啊如果說真的有共諜有任何的這種違反國家安全機密的話抓起來辦嚴辦重辦不是讓他在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
136.513 |
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163.09 |
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可以把我們相關的資料給竊取出去但重點在於是有沒有落實所以本席今天要討論的就是落實的部分落實的部分其實剛剛很多委員都已經在講過所謂的特殊查核對不對我們來先請教一下因為這為什麼會請外交部也一起上台就是這個何仁傑這一位那他過去擔任過外交部的資義是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
166.901 |
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182.47 |
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那他從什麼單位然後再到外交部之後又再離開他是不是擔任過好幾個政府不同的機關的部門的職務是那為什麼我們現在看到的資料裡面只有他出任公務人員的時候的一次一般性的查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
183.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
199.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
報告委員他在進到國安會之前他從之前在國安會那麼有進行過特殊查核還有進行過特殊查核嗎是因為媒體報導講說他只有2016年的也是一般查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
201.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
217.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
2016年那個是一個特殊查核他是來到國安會那麼到本部服務之前有進行按照我們的這個慣例都會進行新進人員的一般查核新進人員一般查核但是他到國安會的時候有特殊查核國安會在我們到進到本部之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
217.785 |
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243.322 |
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本部之前有特殊查核,但是進本部就只有一般查核是的,因為他的職位是一等之一好,那這樣子就凸顯兩個部分,就是他的工作其實大家就講,就是說他的工作有可能職務沒有那麼高但是他可以經手的機密確實跟部長幾乎是同等的因為他等於就在部長身邊,或是說他經手很多公文是部長才能看到,但是他會經手 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
244.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
255.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以造成他有很多上下其手的空間對不對那未來我們現在在討論到是所謂的特殊查核應該要去做相關的增加人員的一個部分請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
258.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
277.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
不管是特殊查核或一般查核都是由調查局來進行據我的了解但是我現在講的是我們的公務人員任用法裡面包括第二項所謂的涉及國家安全或重大利益者辦理特殊查核那相關的人員的名單不是有各機關這邊要提出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
279.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
295.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們目前來說有96個人必須要進行特殊查核是不是像昨天外交部部長林佳龍也有講到前天滋疫應該要接受特殊查核我們認同這樣的一個想法那什麼時候提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
298.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
327.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們可以在布裡面可以用採取比較更高的標準雖然說現在在不是布裡面採取更高標準是法令就有明文規定了我現在法令就有公務人員任用法第四條其中第二項涉及國家安全跟重大利益者辦理特殊查核但是名單要由各機關提出來授權行政院制定查核辦法嘛那我現在要問的是既然外交部都已經講是說要做這個事情那何仁傑的這個案件也已經出來兩個多月了吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
328.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
339.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那到目前為止外交部的動作咧目前外交部的動作我們是透過我們內部的政風調查好 那我想請教我們有沒有落實就是說我們既然有一個老鼠屎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
341.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
363.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我還是肯定我們外交同仁大家99%都很辛苦但是裡面還有沒有其他老鼠屎有沒有針對這個部分去做特殊查核然後來去做一個徹底的釐清所以至於我們這個部長在前天答覆委員的答覆我們這個委員會這邊說的一樣我們會對於相關的涉密人員進行特殊查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
365.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
371.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你要提出人員名單你才有法源依據有法源依據你才能做特審查核啊所以什麼時候要提出人員名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
375.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
401.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
跟主席報告主席是這邊我是委員剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是那個特殊現在依照現在的法規規定特殊查核只能由公務人員身份的才可以那剛剛講到的核員他是用聘用人員所以目前的法規他是沒有列在特殊查核的範圍裡面那剛剛委員提到這個建議因為行政院現在正在 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
402.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
419.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
研究怎麼樣讓整個特殊查核可以更完備那我們可以把委員您的建議事實跟行政院反映讓這個譬如說未來可以特殊查核的那個人員的類別擴大那如果是這樣的話布裡面就會依照有涉及修法的部分對好 感謝來 次長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
422.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
435.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在備詢台有一說一這是為什麼本席今天會過來特別講我看到外交部部長講說應該要接受特殊查核很好啊結果有沒有修法有沒有動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
436.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
455.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
沒有看到然後特殊查核本來就有名單你要有法源於據你才能去做特殊查核名單會適時增加從一開始的名單到現在你去看公務人員任用法裡面的第二項這一個涉及國家安全跟重大利益它的名單與時俱進 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
457.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
480.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那什麼時候你們再把各機關再把名單給報出來目前沒有看到案發已經兩個多月了沒有看到那現在又跟講我也看到就是說這是對於公務人員的部分那如果說他就不是公務人員他沒有適用的話你現在一直講說啊民粹的講我要用特殊查核特殊查核結果發覺法院根本不適用啊不是講爽的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
482.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
504.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
報告我們還是依法行政當然是依法行政所以我才會提醒你們行政機關不能只是講爽的要做就把落實就把這些事情給你要依照要修法要提出來我們共同來討論但不是說現在媒體報導我趕快堵媒體我說我要特殊查那實際上根本你現在的法令就是你們做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
505.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
522.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那是我們這個對修法的規劃的方向我們的部長跟院裡面行政院一起努力然後也請這個國安局副局長來副局長最後副局長我看到就是說因為他是各機關要提出來對 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
523.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
539.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以難免掛一漏萬是不是國安局要用更高的國安的視角來去通盤的檢討各機關到底什麼樣的人員應該要報特殊查核什麼樣的人員是一般查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
540.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
556.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個部分是不是因應現在作為能夠來提出特殊查核的全管機關是福岡部是調查局來做特殊的一個查核那剛委員的一個建立部分我都理解調查局做查核現在我提的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
557.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
575.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
每個機關報人名單出來給調查局做查核 那個機關報嘛我們現在的問題就是在於是說之前就是沒有把資義列進去 你沒有報出來資義它又不屬於公務人員 那現在說外交部說要做通盤檢討 行政院也說通盤檢討好 那我現在問的是說各機關如果還是一樣各自為政 你們自己機關去盤點說哪些人要送特殊查核 哪些人要一般查核 難免掛一路外 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
584.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
613.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
也因此才會說是不是國安局有一個高度你檢視我們國家哪些植物有可能他植物不夠高但是他金手機密多他也應該要列為特殊查核副議長這個我想一個特殊查核要有一個定義就是說以接觸機密的資訊的程度來判斷他是不是要接受那個透視的一個查核那沒錯剛剛委員的一個提議是沒錯但擔心說各機關報的話會掛一落萬那 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
614.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
632.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個部分我想我們可以結合其他部門通盤的一個檢討讓這些真的需要做特殊查核的人把他擬列出來做相關查核的工作副議長在這件事情上面我覺得國安局一定要有態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
632.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
652.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就是在於我剛剛講說 國安局列出六大項其實這六大項 各位同仁都很清楚你們有沒有做 有做 沒有落實所以現在要落實 兩個字執行到位 才能夠真真正正的防止相關的滲透否則的話都是作假的 以上 謝謝 |