| IVOD_ID |
160512 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160512 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-35-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-23T10:56:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-23T11:06:41+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc075f146195b9e89ee9ac021369aff85ba9a3354dc8dbd3a623e63146d6c8f82985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳冠廷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:56:05 - 11:06:41 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國防部部長、外交部部長、國家安全局局長、總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長報告「近期國軍、外交部、總統府、國安會遭共諜滲透，其影響國安層面、範圍及未來人員考核管制之具體作法」，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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市長陳委員好你好今天我剛剛看到我們的這個報告那在第二頁現行做法的部分請參閱一下在現行做法的部分有提到說涉及重大利益的職務要辦理特殊查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
52.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
那在外領人員跟約聘僱人員在禁用前要均辦理一般查核是昨天在調查局的這個好像局長他在回應其他人的質詢的時候似乎有提到說這個何信這個助理他過去有辦理過一次特殊查核是在進國安會之前那在外交部時有沒有辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.64 |
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他只有一般查核他的是用知意來聘僱的所以他是視同聘聘所以想請教一下所以像媒體所報導的他只有經過一次查核是對的還是錯的他在國安會之前有進行過特殊查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.936 |
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但是到了外交部是一個一般查核所以他有經歷過一般查核那為什麼一般查核的時候沒有發現問題是不是我們一般查核的部分是不是有沒有外交部部內有沒有談論到未來一般查核的內容部分是不是要經過一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.293 |
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因為一般 報告委員一般查核的這個內容跟他的這個查的深度那麼是由調查局來做這個規範的那麼我們就是按照現在的這個公務人員這個服務法公務員服務法跟公務人員任用法這兩條的規定然後把它按照他所聘任的職位那麼送去這個分別進行這個特殊查核和一般查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.278 |
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我先回應一下第一個這樣子的說法我想就表示說我們今天的這個會議裡面說要考核管制的具體做法你就等於是把它直接就交給去這個調查局你沒有在做內部的檢討說為什麼有經過查核之後那還是有發現這樣的問題嗎我們要的是跨部會的檢討而不是就是那就交給調查局然後第二點我也蠻驚訝就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
143.504 |
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有媒體那麼多次講說只有經過在國安會任職聘用之前的一次特殊查核但是你們沒有去澄清說不僅僅只有在國安會有特殊查核你們在外交部之前也有經過查核的這個該做的一般查核那這個新聞已經兩三天都在講好像說只有一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
163.214 |
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187.551 |
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沒有嘛你們其實有有完整的把該做的這些項目你們有完整的去做嗎你們也有把一般查核的部分把該員也有做一般查核我們這樣講對不對這個機會要跟媒體要澄清一下是我們那個一定對於這個外界來做這個我們事實上在這個這個核心的前任之役一等之役的這個案子發生之後我們也有在內部透過政風調查那麼做過查核那麼相關的內容我們也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.154 |
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這個交給這個檢調機關那麼進行以利後續的這個辦案謝謝喔因為我還是強調因為不管是這個特殊查核大概是1154個職位是要做特殊查核那主要是偏用於機要或者是這個主任秘書一級單位的主管等等那可能就是偏向的是公務人員是 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
215.225 |
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但是在約聘僱人員或者是說政務任命的就沒有那麼多我還是要強調說這個也是要檢討的範圍嘛因為我們都知道說該人員核心助理對他是約聘僱但是他接觸到的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
233.516 |
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251.711 |
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包含行程等等全部都有接觸到那這麼重要的一個人物你用最簡單的方式一般查核是這是對的嗎那麼委員質詢的這個方向原本是我們未來改進精進的一個方向我們也希望就是說我希望外交部 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
252.672 |
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267.252 |
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能夠內部重新檢討過一次就昨天我有跟那個部長我們有在質詢前幾天有在質詢的時候就有提到啊不可以說就直接把這個東西調給法務部是你們決定這一個人的重要性是 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
269.829 |
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292.207 |
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你怎麼會用這樣的方式剛才我說的我們會跟國防部互動交流根據按照國防部現在新的精進作為的方向來作為本部的參考之後精進檢討就是說不是以人的職位或者是職等而是以它揭秘的程度來作為好不好跟國防部學習一下因為我質詢顧部長從去年就質詢到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
295.47 |
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慢慢的都有在調整那甚至是在決定該員的揭密層級的時候部長在上次有提到啊就是說以後不是只有主觀來去決定啊美方有一個完整的檢討機制啊此人可能接觸到的密等不是有主觀一個人比方說官會諮詢委員那我就把你當成是一般就好了還甚至是沒有揭密 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
319.6 |
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這都要檢討的而且是現在我國的外交處境是越來越艱難這個美國中國之間的這樣的狀況之下我們希望你們內部先檢討一下是那麼感謝委員的催訓我們這個之後一定來這個相關的來檢討我來問一下是這個在合圓也好啦或者是無緣也好沒關係我們就先從外交部的部分來講是在這個在被發現之前有沒有任何內部的這個通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
350.168 |
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374.865 |
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有沒有任何他的同事來去做最近他的作為什麼的據我們的了解是說沒有看得到的為異常狀況所以沒有人通報嘛對不對沒有異常的通報對不對假設在外交部有其他國家的勢力集團個人來去接觸的話會不會有異常通報異常通報負責的單位是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
378.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
383.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
振峰振峰為異常狀況的話我來講一下我現在手上的是這個DC |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
389.977 |
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408.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
SA反情報手冊是由美國反情報安全局他們做的這個手冊這手冊的目的是什麼我們不要事後再來去捕破網我們事前遇到不管是個人接觸或者是機關接觸這些可能涉密的人員的時候就必須要在第一時間來去回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
411.155 |
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外交部要被回報的機構是什麼?是政風處嗎?就是如果有異常行為的話就會外交部我們大概是整合政風跟地域跟各個區域的私處來做相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
428.188 |
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452.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我為什麼要把這一個資料再拿出來就是說他們有一個標準的做法我們現在做的不僅僅是在事後的調查我們要事前的反情報而且這不需要跨部會去做那包含常見的誘導技巧有什麼外國機構會用比如說你喜歡被認同啊所以會故意去問你一些這個跟你專業相關的問題啊讓你去講想些你的博學啊你會禮貌 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
453.155 |
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467.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
甚至出外他們會透過外交單位來去跟你來接觸啊或者是透過這些智庫單位來去跟你去接觸啊或者是在第三地來去跟你去接觸啊那你們可能會低估自己所說出口的重要性你們低估這個職位的重要性啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
468.668 |
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492.01 |
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這些都是有可能的所以說未來通報必須要有義務的就是說外交官員如果遇到有人試圖不當或者是授權不當的要求你去把未經授權的敏感資訊來提供的時候你就必須要有這個機制所以外交部內部也要有一個相關的講習把這樣子的回報機制把它講出來在遇到這樣的時間點第一時間你必須要怎麼樣回報給部內是 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
493.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以我們現在要講的已經不是事後的調查了而是事前的反情報內部人員都要有一個相關的機制在那其實調查這麼久了部內一無所知沒有做相關的防範的話也是不行的其實今天要講的很多啦還有包含在最後一點我國的這些外交人員如果他去到第三國就是非中國以外的第三國我們講說是非 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
523.393 |
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550.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
歐盟跟美國以外他的通訊設備他是攜帶他舊有的通訊設備可以出國嗎還是要全面換新你也必須要依照地區的風險做調整啊比方說你到港澳負責兩岸的事務的官員或許還是會有去港澳的這個可能性那如果這些我現在講的不是外交部我想的是比方說如果是涉及港澳的官員或者是中港澳的官員那他所帶的通訊設備包括那手機平板全部都要統一配發新的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
551.912 |
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577.902 |
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外交部也是如果你們到的是非洲友邦國家是一回事但是如果是到非我建交的國家中國影響力大的國家你們的通訊設備也是必須要檢討所以我們現在講的已經不是在事後再去追溯了我們現在講的是事前的防範反情報的一些方式麻煩一下外交部不能夠說這樣子推到說這個是調查局他可以做這個一般查核那我們已經把東西交給調查局了就跟你們無關了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
579.042 |
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600.376 |
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不可以這樣子做好不好當然我們會持續的來檢討精進喔那麼對於人員的考核那我想過去的時候採取入職之前的一個調查而且我覺得有點狀況我還就是說奇怪怎麼這幾個月他在講這件事情的時候這幾個禮拜就真的讓人家說我們只查核一次就只有國安會入職之前查核一次問題是你們也有查核這件事情竟然到現在才 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
601.136 |
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625.865 |
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外交部有查核一次但是用一般的這個查核按照規定你也不能夠用特殊的規定嘛因為法律上面講一般查核就是一般查核那這個特殊查核就是特殊查核你們有把你們的工作做好但是我要提到的是說人家媒體說你們沒有你這個時候第一時間也要反應我們現在不僅僅是國家安全的問題還有包含這些錯假亂訊息的這個第一時間的回覆都要做好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
628.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
636.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝陳冠廷委員上台諮詢接下來我們現在處理臨時提案共兩案請醫事人員宣讀 |