| IVOD_ID |
16050 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16050 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-28 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-28T10:30:18+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-28T13:25:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:54:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fca6bbc86a65e9b4f8a1a4490f1a25f8df627684c85f64cd7ba349e92ac39a91af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-28T11:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商通知（事由：一、併案協商(一)司法及法制委員會併案審查(1)行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」(2)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」(3)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」(4)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」(二)本院委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「洗錢防制法修正草案」(三)本院委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「洗錢防制法修正草案」。二、併案協商(一)司法及法制委員會審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」(二)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「科技偵查及保障法草案」(三)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「科技偵查及保障法草案」。三、併案協商(一)司法及法制委員會併案審查(1)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」(2)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」(二)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:30:18 - 13:25:00 |
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1846.101 |
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好,我們協商時間已屆,現在開始協商會議那本日協商打造相關法案共計三個主題稍後按協商通知排序依序進行協商那協商進行之前先介紹到場的委員及機關代表到場的有黃國昌、黃總召還有羅志強羅委員 |
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1876.06 |
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1876.724 |
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以及剛到場的吳思瑤吳幹事長 |
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1881.086 |
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1905.02 |
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待會再簽我先介紹其他到場的官員列席單位法務部黃謀信常務司長檢察司檢美惠副司長主任檢察官張靜勛以及黃惠欣檢察官司法院刑事廳李大任理廳長 |
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1907.489 |
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1915.071 |
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內政部刑事警察局林信雄副局長民政司檢譽金檢證視察地政司檢證視察張哲銘財政部由法治處的 |
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1934.933 |
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1961.813 |
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專門委員謝志玲專門委員還有張巧平也是專門委員復稅署有楊純婷副組長看到了以及關務署的郭奕淵副組長以及經濟部我們商業署的莊文玲副組長 |
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1963.803 |
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1983.698 |
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以及衛生福利部的蔡敏鋒副署長還有術發部術衛產業署的胡貝蒂胡副署長歡迎您法制處的吳宣吳一倫副署長 |
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1986.055 |
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2011.069 |
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金管會銀行局童政章副局長 歡迎您還有政企局的高金平高副局長 歡迎您中央銀行的謝仁俊副處長 歡迎您還有國家通訊傳播委員會的法律事務處的蔡志倫蔡處長 歡迎您內政部移民署專門委員魏良齊我也專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2014.022 |
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2018.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
蔡佩岑副主任國防部法治署王炳峰副處長海洋委員會海巡署孫世亮副組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2042.426 |
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2056.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
個人資料保護委員會籌備處的陳錦怡陳科長還有交通部的檢證計政鄭捷元鄭檢正主計總處的檢證視察李培元國家安全局的呂處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2059.981 |
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2084.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
中華郵政公司的王婉如黃協理歡迎您那之所以一一的點名、唱名就是因為要確認哪些機關到場那我相信還有很多人並沒有簽名的那我想今天我們協商進行當中如果需要各機關代表來發表意見的到時候再自己報一下即時姓名那我們莊瑞雄委員也到了我們歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2086.391 |
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2107.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好 那麼現在我們進行足案進行協商那請大家參閱協商條文對照表還有審查報告以及進覆二讀的提案等關係文書如果與會委員有修正動議或機關有建議內容請請書面印發現場進行討論那目前目前我們已經有一個修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2110.322 |
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2133.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
第一案有印發了嗎?目前已經有一個修正東西在場,他有印發給大家首先進行第一案的併案協商由我們司法法制委員會併案審查、行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案還有台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案還有委員郭國文等 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2134.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2157.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
擬具的洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案以及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案等四案還有院會禁風二讀的由委員林一錦等委員蔡雲仁等人的提案那本案已經在審查會於6月3日審查完卷審查的情形第五條及第24條保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2160.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2164.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
其餘均由審查結果通過那並決議院會討論前交由黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2168.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2190.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
另外第十八次院會的會議委員林益晶等還有參與等的近乎二讀也併案協商以上六案盡於進行併案進行協商那麼為求消息起見我們是否先就保留條文的部分進行討論那委員如果對於審查會通過條文有意見我們再保留條文處理完畢後再接續進行處理請問這樣是否可行 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2191.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2211.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那可以的話我們就請與會的機關代表跟委員我們先進行保留條文的討論因為上次在委員會的時候我在那邊發言我已經說就19條跟20條19條跟20條行度上面實際上面的修正我們有意見要保留我們有記錄嗎有記錄到這一點嗎那時候的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2219.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2223.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
是說條文沒有保留啦就是沒有保留條文但是呢因為本來協商的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2225.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2252.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
沒有保留的條文也是可以討論但是我們先就保留的條文先討論沒關係我只要確認這一點因為上次在委員會討論法案的時候我記得很清楚這對19條跟20條行政院版的刑度我們是有意見的所以呢我們就是說委員只要對於委員會通過的條文有意見一樣可以拿出來討論那我們現在先就保留的部分進行討論好不好那保留的部分先看第五條那第五條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2255.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2260.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第五條呢就是有修正動議印好了嗎好那這個黃委員是不是要先表示意見來請黃三勝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2264.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2291.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好 謝謝主席我們其實有一個意見就是第三方支付的部分因為現在有點金管會就是有很多責任都推給別人所以我們認為說第三方支付交給庶發部是很奇怪的所以是不是也應該把它事權統一我們還是希望說能夠由金管會來統一管理那不然庶發部其實什麼事情都跟他沒關係然後他突然去管一個奇怪的第三方支付而且這些金流這些東西也不是他可以控管的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2293.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2307.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好 那麼關於黃珊珊委員的這個意見上次有多位委員都有提出啦那主要的爭點是在第五條第一項那麼到第十八款應該是第二項啦第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2309.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2337.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就是所謂的辦理融資性租賃提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員適用本法關於金融機構這規定在院版的部分那有委員認為說是不是在第二項呢應該將第三方租也納入這是黃山恩委員的意見嘛那我知道其他委員有類似的意見那當時的爭點是在說因為第五條啊第一項呢就明白表示金融機構包含下列 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2339.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2345.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
18款18款好那在第二項的部分呢也將這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2347.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2369.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
融資性租賃跟虛擬資產服務事業也適用金融機構也就是並同第一項的金融機構並同看待那有委員認為說第三方租應該放進類似適用金融機構的規定那這一點機關代表是不是依序表示意見是不是先請金管會表示意見再來請數法部表示意見來先請金管會好來請麥克風好我們請傳遞麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2380.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2391.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那個我們有手持麥克風嗎會長工作人員協助一下好 謝謝主席各位委員大家好那個首先跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2393.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2414.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
首先跟委員報告在現行的這個洗房法裡面已經把這個第三方支付列為我們歸管的一個對象只是他沒有把它放在這個適用金融機構帳至於第三方支付的部分我們依照現在電資機構管理條例只要第三方支付日均餘額超過20億以上這個部分還是會由金管會來納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2415.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2443.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那只要它對在這個日經餘額在20億以下因為整個經濟規模比較小這個部分還是由數位部來管理那以上兩點補充好 那麼剛剛進行的意見呢就是在行政院版的第五條的最後一項第四項的第五款嘛所謂的其他業務特性或交易型態亦為洗錢犯罪利用之事業或從業人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2445.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2470.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那這個第五款是由行政院來指定那裡已經指定了第三方支付了但是對於這樣的指定是否足夠我想那個是不是請速發部這邊表示意見因為目前第三方支付是由速發部在做主管機關的速發部代表請主席還有各位委員以及機關代表那速費部對於第三方支付的部分就如同剛才金華會講的它是已經經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2473.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2485.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
已經經過行政院指定為非金融事業人員那其實也是適用洗房法相關的一些規定那如果今天把他放在第二項把他明列的話那可能會造成說第三方支部跟其他非金融事業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2488.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2515.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
被指定的非金融事業它適用的規定會不太一樣因為等於是只有第三方支付會適用所謂的金融機構的規定可是其他的卻沒有那這可能在適用上是有一點不平等另外我們建議就是說因為現在是用指定的是屬於比較彈性的做法未來有新的洗房對象被指定的時候也可以透過這樣的方式來處理所以如果把它名列的話就變成說會比較缺乏彈性以上是數位部的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2516.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2521.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好 謝謝那因為現在有一個修正動議在場那麼提案的委員有意見我們請吳思瑤辦事長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2525.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2548.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
謝謝確實上一次在主條討論的時候對於第三方支付納入那怎麼來處理大家有了很多的討論那是不是可以請那個珊珊委員可以看一下剛發下來的我們民進黨有提一個修正動議針對第五條它應當是我們把第三方支付納入我們應該放在的是第三項的第五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2549.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2565.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第五款我們具體的針對這個信託級公司服務提供業為客戶準備哪些交易裡頭我們放入了提供第三方支付服務之事業或人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2568.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2584.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
原本是把它放在原來的第五項裡頭我們為了讓提案大家多所討論很明確地把第三方支付我們用另外一項一款把它列出來所以這個也可以聽聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2586.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2607.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主責機關認為民眾黨團這樣的修正動議是不是一個好的solution我們認為這樣子是可以很清楚的定義拉出來然後又不會造成太大的主責機關之間的一些權責的漢格所以我們認為是蠻可行的是不是可以提供給珊珊委員還有國民黨的委員可以參考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2608.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2626.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好 那麼主席整理一下在場的發言的要點那關於院版條文的第五條的第一項是指金融機構有18款第二項是補充第一項是適用於金融機構的規定有這目前兩類第三項呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2627.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2647.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
指的是非金融機構一共列了原來列了五款那每款還有個目那目前吳小委員的意思是說那是不是把它放在第三項的非金融事業當中就剛剛訴發部所說的非金融事業有那麼多但是我們特別把它在 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2650.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2667.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這五項當中我們增列了這五款當中增列了一款特別把它非金融機構當中增列了一個第五款提供第三方支付服務之事業或人員那原來的其他就變成了第六款也就是說把第三方支付在屬於非金融機構的部分特別的標 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2669.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2681.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
單獨標列為一款以上就是符合原來它第一項二項是屬於金融機構第三項是非金融機構但是非金融機構原來的五款我們增加一個第三方支付列為非金融機構請大家表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2685.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2713.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
稍微還有各位同仁我想我們的版本比較特別是我們希望它變成金融機構所以我們會寫在第一項各位可以看到法條上面的我們是把第三方支付放在第一項金融機構的下方也就是我剛剛講的我們認為第三方支付應該由金管會來管而不是讓一定額度以下變成是一個完全不怎麼管金流大量金流的速發部來管理所以才會放在第一項那 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2714.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2736.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
如果要放在第二項呢又回到一點就是那它的第三項的話又回到是它又是一個被指定的單位所以它又不是用金融機構的管理辦法那我們認為說這樣的管理會比較鬆散那當然現在現行是抒發不再管那我覺得長期的目標第三方支付既然有那麼多牽涉到可能被洗房拿來用的話我們希望它能夠列為 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2737.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2750.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
金融機構的概念去做管理將來不管包括現在大型大量的它其實不亞於一個銀行所以我們認為說這個可能必須要把它當成金融機構來管理這是比較正確的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2752.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2771.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我想那個分析點很明確啦就是我們的修正吳委員包括在內的修正動議是希望說仍然把它視為非金融機構但是放在第三項獨立成一個款第五款以標示對第三方支付的一個管制的對象的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2772.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2773.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
及第六條之一條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2802.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2827.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那麼由一個洗房法的作用法來規範那麼這個是不是可以討論一下因為到底第三張資料放到金管會館是要在洗房法裡面去討論因為洗房法是針對不同的事業類型我們對它的一個約束那但是對這個事業的主管機關的本質歸屬是不是要在洗房法裡面做討論這大家可以思考一下來吳世耀委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2829.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2855.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝主席主席講的確實就是我非常在意的一個點我們現在在討論的是洗錢防制法它是針對主管機關所管理的相關業務如果有涉及洗錢或者是我們怎麼來預防的作為那如果現在在這個洗錢防制法裡頭要反過來去把第三方支付去改變它的主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2856.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2879.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我覺得這個也是怪的那當然未來我知道黃珊安委員長期在財政委員會在金管會的部分跟書發部針對第三方支付到底要不要由書發部改到金管會去管這個是後續可以在財政委員的專業裡頭再做一個清楚的討論可是如果今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2880.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2890.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
從防制法洗錢防制法來把它倒過來我真的覺得一來時間可能也會拖到嘛對不對你要去把它的主管機關做一個大的翻轉業務從這裡到那裡它可能涉及的不是我們在條文裡頭放到哪一項這麼單純而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2898.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2926.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以我們是要讓它有效的精準打擊而且快速的打擊而且能夠在這次的修法就能夠來回應我們洗房的需要我是希望能夠請黃珊珊委員是我們先讓她已經入法就代表在洗錢防制法裡頭必須針對第三方支付來做必要的對應的處置那後續在主管機關那後續在其他的法規去做思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2927.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2939.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
否則是就會拖到也會去影響到但是黃珊珊委員的這個利益我們也充分的理解好嗎好那珊珊委員可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2940.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2964.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以我想上一次我們表達得很清楚就是洗房法就應該是洗房業務所以為什麼我把洗房業務當成重要的這件事情我們在修洗房法不應該拿管理方法或主管機關來這邊我同意所以我也上次也要求金管會把虛弊管理的辦法從洗房法洗出去因為你們塞了一大堆管理辦法在這裡這才不對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2964.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2980.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以我也同意我們不用在洗房法裡面去增值主管機關或者是它的管理方式只是對洗房業務我覺得我們要表達立場我們認為速發部根本沒有能力管洗房業務這才是我的重點那至於將來要不要納入金管會我覺得行政院要有一個態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2981.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3010.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
你能不能夠讓現在的訴發部去管洗房業務我個人是打很大的問號第二個包括虛弊的金管會也沒有定出辦法然後在洗房法裡面加了一大堆監管方式這也不對所以這套法我們沒有人要擋我們希望他趕快過但是金管會必須要在這法這部法過了一兩年之內把虛擬資產業務拉出去把電子第三方支付的業務搞清楚主管單位這兩件事情必須要理清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3010.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3037.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那今天他們提出的這個修正動議我個人認為說好只要把第三方支付納入表達立法院的立場我就沒有意見但是但是一樣的主管機關還有虛弊管理這兩件事情希望金管會短時間之內在這個洗房法通過之後要立刻另訂虛擬貨幣的專法去把監管的業務從洗房法拉出去不是讓洗房法讓法務部來當金管會的保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3040.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3049.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 那麼我想黃三三委員的意思是說我們可以考慮這個修正動議好 那至此還是要提醒一下對 對 對 那這個附帶決的部分這個有誰來擬啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3058.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3061.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
第二項辦理融資性租賃提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員之範圍第三項第五款指定之非金融機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3088.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3109.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這時候的第五款又變成了地方商商支付了而原來的第五款它是指其他業務性質所以這裡面的第三項第五款的第五款是否要做同步的調整這個部分是不是行政院這邊是不是我們看一下各機關是不是要把那第五款改成第六款 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3111.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3135.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這個字就是第三項我再講一遍就是修正動議從最後一頁往上看它出現了第五款跟第六款那接下來接續是第四項第四項裡面的第四行有個第三項第五款這個五應該改成六才會回到我們修正動議後的第六款就是原來的第五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3136.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3151.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那我這裡是不是就簽個名那那這條呢我們留待附帶決議出來之後我們再一併通過那這個文字上的修正我就先做這樣的處理好那三上委員我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3154.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3163.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我們就等附帶決議我們擬一下這個但是我還是強調我們希望洗錢防制服的主管機關應該要進金管會金管會不能偷懶競表同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3168.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3195.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我同意黃珊珊委員的意見剛剛主席說禁表同意我現在先請副委員不帶決議他的不帶決議要禁表同意不好意思我把話講完現在第三方支付的主管機關是速發部這件事情是規範在什麼地方可不可以請行政院說明一下我的意思是他的法規基礎第三方支付的法規他的主管機關是速發部的法規基礎是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3198.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3215.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
因為你們剛剛一直主張嘛你們基本上面在講的是在洗款法這個作用法裡面不要去變更它的主管機關的屬性嘛那到我現在的問題是第三項支付它的主管機關是速發布這件事情到底規範在哪裡來 那個速發布代表能不能說明一下來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3220.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3248.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
報告主席還有那個黃委員這個其實第三方支付後來是本來是在經濟部商業司所主管然後因為隨著業務那抒發部的成立隨著業務移波在行政院協調然後由數位發展部擔任第三方支付的主管機關沒有啊所以嘛我就具體的講你所謂透過協調的方式讓第三方支付的主管機關是抒發部這件事情完全沒有法律或法規命令的基礎我這樣的說明對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3254.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3274.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
對 確實是沒有 因為第三方支付沒有專法啦所以他 那如果今天你們只是透過協調的方式既沒有法律 也沒有法規命令然後就可以協調第三方支付是給速發部管那如果今天立法院做一個決議請你們再協調回去給警管會管有沒有困難來 那個吳世耀委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3279.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3307.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我覺得樹發部的同仁你的說法是有點問題我們在面對任何的組織修訂尤其像樹發部它是新的部會的時候它確實會有樹發部的組織條例嘛 對不對那裡頭會分你們分哪些司分哪些單位這個都會有入法但是對於任何的各個司所管轄的業務裡頭不會細緻到都去入法規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3309.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3334.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以你所說的是協調好像是隨便喬一喬就變成你我覺得這我是不接受的這也不是過去我們在處理這麼多新生組織包括過去在教育文化委員會我們的這個國科會變成科技部然後又修回國科會我們在條例上面會處理的是它設哪些司哪些處然後所轄哪些業務句號 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3335.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3352.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
他不會細緻到第三方支付也好或是什麼新的什麼方式都把它入法我覺得這在實務上有困難喔對不對我們大家想看看在公部門怎麼可能會細到每一個東西都是用法來規定是誰管 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3353.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3369.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
但這不是組織法去具戲謎把每一個業務都列出來了所以我對於你的講法本來在做新的組織的調派的時候就會透過哪些業務專業上、人力上會移撥給誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3373.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3398.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這是合宜的處理所以你剛剛的回答說好像是協調然後就這樣隨便東丟一個西丟一個這樣會有誤導這會有誤導這是一個組織任務的調派尤其述發部是一個新的部會它承接了不同部會的任務而經濟部商業司本來管的第三方支付的一波就到述發部來接手 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3399.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3414.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我沒有挑戰其他委員建議說我們未來對於第三方支付的主管機關是可以來檢視但是你的說法我覺得要修正它絕對不是因為很隨便被協調業務就這樣這個說法很不精確 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3419.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3440.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
過去的每一個組織嚴格任務的條派大概都是這樣的方式它不是例外特別輕易的、隨便的、粗糙的去做處置所以呢在書發部裡面的數位產業的這個項目裡頭我現在看到一個法規名稱第三方支付服務業 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3441.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3465.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
對不起第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法他有這樣一個辦法對不對有這樣一個辦法裡頭就有很清楚的寫到他屬於行政院下的數位發展部的數位產業幕裡頭來執行那這一個辦法裡面我看有幾個條文喔你有剛剛在找條文這總共有 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3467.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3482.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我看十幾二十個總共有16個條文所以他是有辦法在管理這個業務的處置不是沒有所以我覺得他的回答不精確怎麼會是用協調方式講話不能這樣他有辦法的容我這樣做一個整理啦其實很多的新興行為新興事業並不一定會在各 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3491.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3509.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
主管機關的組織法裡面所明定啦金管會叫做金融就是他管金融嘛所以在本條的第一項他就寫金融機構那既然是金融機構一定是金管會所管理而在他原來的第一項的第十八款 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3511.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3527.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
他還是寫其他經目的事業主管機關指定是金融機構那表示說這裡的洗錢防制法所謂的金融機構原則上是以金管會所管理的金融機構為主但是加了一個18款其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3528.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3541.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
被目的事業來指定的那這裡的目的事業主管機關到底所指為何金融機構的主管機關一定是金管會那請問還有其他目的事業主管機關指定的金融機構嗎比如說農業金庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3546.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3566.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
OK 好那再來第二項他這裡寫的融資性租賃以及虛擬貨幣服務提供者相信也不在金管會原來法規裡面所名列的金融機構當中但是金管會已經把它納入管理但是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3567.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3590.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
並非他可能還沒有被金管委員認定是金融機構他只是納入金管委員所管理所以他這裡的第二項特別舉名說是適用本法關於金融機構之規定所以這裡面你又有一個空間第一項就是金融機構第一項的金融機構還包括第十八款其他指定的第二項是不是金融機構但是適用金融機構的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3591.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3618.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
接下來第三項才是指非金融事業或人員而當中列了原來的第五款他是說其他因為我們不曉得要舉輕以民眾還是舉重以民輕總而言之修正動議就是決定將第三方支付的也特別標舉在非金融機構當中的第五款獨立成一款表示對他的重視程度至於我們在洗錢防制法這樣的一個標誌 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3620.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3646.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
是不是反向可以去指定他的主管機關我覺得是不是今天我們在討論洗房法的重點的時候是希望他納入洗房的規範範圍而且被標舉出來那剛剛黃珊珊委員所提到的透過附帶決議希望未來第三方之五由於他的性質特殊應該等同於類同於前面兩項的融資性租賃或者是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3650.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3675.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
融資性租賃以及虛擬資產這樣的一個性質也能夠為金管會所納管那我們是要在第二項把它用這樣的方式指定由金管會來管理還是放在第五款還是放在非金融機構但是未來如果可以納管到金管會的管理下範圍內他也不受這個拘束啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3676.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3686.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們不能說我們洗房法放在第五款以後就盡管不能管但是我們把第三方是標舉出來表示很重要不管目前誰在管他都要嚴格的受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3687.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3708.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
洗錢防制的高規格對待這是為什麼我們試著用修正動議來解決這個歧異的問題那是我幹財黨委員能夠考量我們在這裡可以預告一下大家已經收到下週的議程下週我已經排收四就這第三方之物也涵蓋在內就洗錢防制法 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3709.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3732.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
規範下具有洗房防制對象他在新興行業裡面的風險那也跟山上委員說明就是就是要來大家來好好討論類似像第三方支付這樣子在洗房法規範下有洗完房子對象具有高風險的新興事業我們怎麼去因應目的是法通過了但是呢要有做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3733.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3742.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那這個做法呢我把它排在下周四的專題報告看是否這樣子可以來補大家的疑慮或是認為有不足的地方好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3748.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3761.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
是否容我第五條我先預告說以修正動議的方式來通過但是我們留待附帶決議出來之後一併處理那我們現在進行第24條24條有修正動議嗎 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3775.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3787.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
來24條24條就是指公務員洩漏或交付的一些罰則的規定一共有兩項那請問各位委員的看法有沒有24條就是保密義務的免責規定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3802.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3829.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
因為民眾黨的第三位委員這個主要是我們希望讓這些銀行的從業人員他在這個互相提供資料的時候能夠不要有受到這個保密責任的責任的追究所以希望這樣處理但好像法務部這邊是有另外的說法是說在打架司法裡面其實已經有方開這個門那這個是不是要在審防法裡面是不是要請他們先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3831.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3836.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
好 那麼法務部有沒有補充因為剛剛三三委員說的你們再補充一下 謝謝來黃政長 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3840.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3868.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
各位報告有關於這個洗房的基於洗房的目的而交付相關的資料的部分事實上他的這個保持保持秘密的義務的免除我們現在現行法第十條第二項其次就明文免除他因為洗房的目的而交付相關的申報資料的義務免除他的責任了四條第二項已經明文規定所以這這這條是在處理二四條在處理罰則的部分所以不用再重複規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3870.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3880.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
對,第四條已經有請問我們24條照行政院提案通過,OK嗎?來,吳委員我對一下條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3890.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3908.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
因為沒有頁碼啦 就是這一本的沒有問題好 那麼本條按照行政院提案通過好 那我們再回過來看第五條的附帶決議是否有擬具了好 那麼我們往下走好不好附帶決議回來之後我們再回過頭來把它確認好 下一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3913.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3935.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
好 那剛剛因為那個上次沒有保留的還是有委員有對已通過的條文要來表示意見我們請19條 20條請來 黃委員 黃總召19條的部分上次在委員會事上已經表達過了目前現行法的規定針對洗錢的行為是7年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3937.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3953.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那行政院的版本把它劃分成兩個區間一個區間是沒有達一億是六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑然後一億以上是一年以上七年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3954.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3980.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那行政院的版本事實上跟現行法所規範的刑度相比他論其實際論其實際並沒有針對大家目前所深惡痛絕的洗錢行為實際上面去調高他的罰則反而你如果細緻的去看區分兩個類別他對於以下的金額相對而言是在減輕他的罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3982.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4011.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
因此台灣民眾黨黨團我們所提出來的案子是針對一億以下的你要把它降低但針對如果是到一億以上的我們認為應該要再調高它的刑罰到三年以上十年以下有期徒刑這個部分整個方向上面跟我們在有關於這一次所提出來的專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4013.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4027.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這次所提出來的專法裡面刑度兩者之間我們認為目前不管是詐欺的行為還是洗錢的行為在整體上面對於惡性特別重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4028.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4053.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
他洗錢的金額或詐欺的金額特別高的部分應該要加重處罰的方向是相互契合的因此我們對於行政院所這一次提出來第19條對應以前本來的第14條的規定它實質上面反而是在調降刑度的這件事情我們是沒有辦法同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4056.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4072.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好 那麼主席這邊先整理一下上次的爭點上次那個黃總召有提到過那目前台灣民眾黨的黨團的版本他大概分成兩個部分第一個他先以六個月以上五年以下五百萬以下的罰金作為一個範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4073.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4096.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
然後呢在超過特定犯罪所得一億元以上的他提高到三年以上十年以下而且可以罰五千萬的罰金大概分成兩個部分先把一般的寫在前面加重的寫在後面金額就是以一億來規範那行政院的版本呢他剛好反過來寫他是寫一年以上七年以下可以罰一億以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4097.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4116.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
但是如果低於未達一億元的就是六個月以上五年以下可以罰五千萬那看起來呢在一億元這個金額以下的行政院版呢是感覺上比較重啦重的地方同樣是六個月以上五年以下但是呢行政院版是可以罰五千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4118.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4135.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
台民黨版是罰五百萬看起來在一億元以下的是罰金上的差別但是在一億元以上的部分台民黨的是一年三年以上十年以下行政院版是一年以上七年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4136.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4164.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那罰金的部分行政院比較重可以罰到一億那民眾黨的部分是罰五千萬但是呢這裡面還有第三個部分就是細微的差別文字的描述行政院寫的是其洗錢之財務或財產上之利益那那個民眾黨團的是寫特定犯罪所得這兩者在文字描述上對應的還是有些差別是不是請法務部就這個部分來以說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4167.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4195.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
跟主席還有各位委員報告就這個民眾黨所提議的要加重洗錢的刑責的部分這本部完全的贊同那只是刑責要加重到著重這涉及到洗錢犯罪它本身事實上它所保護的法益到底是什麼它必須要跟原來的前置犯罪所保護的法益必須要做切割的處理它畢竟親愛的是一個金流的法益所以它的刑度它畢竟要有一個極限 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4195.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4218.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
不可以跟這一個原來的那個前置犯罪刑度差距過大所以說我們基本上基調上我們是贊成提高的但是它提高到有一定的幅度所以在我們這個修正草案裡面我們事實上就這個洗錢的刑度我們從設了一個樓地板的規定原來是七年以下我們現在訂到一年以上七年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4218.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4220.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4236.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4260.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
另外就是另外有一點事實上我們做的一個文字上不同的處理我們原來的這個洗錢是用犯罪所得去做標的我們現在標的是用洗錢的金額做標的這其實差非常的多犯罪所得也許只有一千萬他去混同到一起洗錢之後他把它加入他正常的金流九千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4262.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4282.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
他的洗錢金額就超過一億了這時候就可以直接進入我們新修正的重罪的規定去做所以這樣子的處理之後他其實事實上也達到實質上加重的目的那以上的說明跟委員報告我進一步來追問那個委員要追問嘛請 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4284.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4313.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
所以這樣聽起來就刑度的加重我們已經從原本的七年以下已經我們是一年以上七年以下嘛 對不對第二個我覺得剛剛那個重點很清楚就是犯罪所得我們是比犯罪所得更嚴格的把洗錢的財務跟財產上之利益就是它之前操作的那個就也是一種加重然後還有另外一個就是對於一億以下的那一類行政院院板罰五千 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4313.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4329.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
然後民眾版罰500所以我們也是比較重所以從這三個面向我基本上是同意剛剛次長說的這樣子的處置都是朝更加重的方式來處理我是可以接受這個政院的版本好 黃委員可以這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4332.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4353.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
第一個部分我再說明一次這邊在行動上面的調整是有鑒於目前上議員的洗錢大戶他事實上所造成的危害是特別的嚴重我必須要強調這個不是在抓小蝦米這個是在抓上面最大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4354.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4377.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
上面最大的才會有上億元洗錢的金額所以我說了這一邊在行度上面的調整跟我們在內政委員會所提出來的修正動議的打詐專法彼此之間是相配合的因為在內政委員會那邊的打詐專法的時候行政院的版本本來是只有1000萬以上他們要加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4378.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4402.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
但是我在那邊質詢的時候連內政部的部長都表示事實上針對一億以上的那個積蓄他要再拉高所以我們在整體行動上面的設計在洗錢剛剛次長所講的沒有錯他是一個前置犯罪但是我們針對有關於詐欺以及跟詐欺的這個行為相結合的特殊犯罪手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4403.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4422.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
彼此之間以及他的犯罪受損實際上面的金額相結合我們在這邊做了這樣的設計第二個部分當初在擬條文的時候的確在條文的設計上面的確是參考政交法的規定所以那個時候才會寫特定犯罪所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4422.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4444.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
但我覺得剛剛次長所講的是有道理的所以針對第14條的部分我們會再提出修正動議再提出修正動議把剛剛次長所講的那個概念就有關於洗錢的財務或財產上面的利益沒有達到 或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4445.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4470.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
按照我們的寫法就應該是正面表述洗錢的財務或財產上的利益有達到1億元以上的話那維持我們自己本來刑度的部分至於說就罰金刑的部分要並同我們在修正動議的時候隨著目前法務部或是行政院他們的意見再把罰金刑一併提高這件事情我們也認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4473.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4496.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
聽起來目前行政院版跟民眾黨團大概行政院的意見大概都被接納了就是差在說那個後來放寬到不是只有犯罪所得喔也不是只有財產上的利用或者是包括洗錢的財務金額高達一億的就會進入到那個比較高刑度的寒色範圍那行政院的高刑度是一年以上七年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4497.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4515.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
台民黨的刑度是三年以上十年以下所以聽起來黃總召的意思都是從重罰金比行政院輕的就調高從五百變成五千萬五千萬變成一億那一億元本來是屬於犯罪所得這個比較嚴格是只要犯罪所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4516.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4529.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
行政院板已經放寬到經手洗錢的財務達一億元以上的就要適用較高的處罰只是這個較高處罰的刑度到底要一年以上七年以下還是三年以上十年以下這個請市長表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4530.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4553.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這邊也跟黃總召說明一下我們這條它是有意這樣子立法的模式它跟我們金融企業法的立法模式故意採不一樣模式金融企業法的模式是原則上輕罪超過一億才另外重罪所以實務上一直在爭執到底有沒有超過一億所以我們為了解決困難顛倒過來立法原則上你超過一億你要降下來你要舉證 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4554.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4574.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
你要舉證 故意採一個舉證責任的一個導致的狀態讓這種犯罪容易達到一億以上要不然現在金融七法 實際上都一直在爭執到底有沒有超過一億發揮更審 科學更審 更來更去 更不完我們要解決這個困境才用這種立法導致的模式來立法以上說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4575.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4584.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
可以吧 這樣可以吧我是覺得還有因為沒有啦 我這樣講好了啦就是當你這樣反過來寫的時候在刑事審判實務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4586.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4609.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
到最後還是要去確定不管你講的是說特定犯罪所的或者是不法利益的金額或者是在這邊所用的詞洗錢的財務或財產上的利益因為在我國目前法院的事實審認定當中你有沒有禁審理之就是禁審理跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4611.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4636.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
指責去救民那個事實其實那個是常常在最高法院跟高等法院上上下下的事情當然你們現在說透過你這樣反過來寫的方式會導致所謂的舉證責任的導致是不是會產生這樣的效果我必須要老實講我是抱持著疑問的但沒有關係我今天堅持的只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4637.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4662.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
寫的方式以上就寫你要把這文改本文跟但書兩者之間你要這樣子改我沒意見但是針對議員以上的洗錢大戶要加重刑罰的這件事情要加重刑罰這件事情而不是只有停留在現在你本來七年以下有期徒刑只增加了一個最低的法定本刑是一年以上我認為這個遠遠不夠所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4665.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4684.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
法務部剛剛所提供的意見我們會採納我們會採納那這一條我建議大家在刑度上面有根本上面的分歧就還是先保留我們等到下一個階段院長協商的時候會再斟酌法務部的意見提出我們的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4686.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4713.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 那我想因為表達的意見很清楚了啦這一題我們就保留啦那麼這條保留因為行路上要三年以上十年以下跟一年以上七年以下這個沒有辦法達到一致的意見那行政院版是一年以上七年以下那民眾黨版是三年以上十年以下我再協調一下吧這個為了這一條保留你要不要再說明再說服一下黃總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4719.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4735.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我再跟委員報告一下我再次強調我們這個洗錢犯罪它處罰的是金流不是那個前置犯罪那個犯罪前置犯罪我們洗錢罪前置犯罪有很多六個月以上的犯罪甚至列舉的犯罪已經很輕的犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4735.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4762.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
他的洗錢會達到三年到十年這會處到一個非常失衡他的權制犯罪是非常輕的犯罪後面的犯罪所得卻處到三到十年所以說他這個刑責不可以提高到這種三到十年因為一到七年再往上提就是三到十年了那個刑度已經超過我們所有的法律的平衡的觀點了我跟總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4764.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4791.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
是不是請國商總召可以因為我真的覺得那個太失衡了可不可能我再說明一下前次的犯罪後面洗錢的行為我們現在在處理的現在在處理的不是一般的洗錢是超過上億元的就上億元的部分你們就現在的法定刑七年以下你只加了一個樓地板加一年以上有期徒刑我覺得對於我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4794.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4821.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
在整個詐欺的犯罪當中裡面扮演非常重要關鍵角色會導致不管是詐欺的追溯上或是在首腦的棄拿上甚至日後不法犯罪所得的取回上面會產生最嚴重阻礙的其實就是這種大額洗錢的金額我再強調一次上億元的金額絕對不是去罰車手啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4823.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4838.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
絕對不是去罰那些小羅羅全部都是罰這些洗錢集團上面最大的首腦所以我們才會要求針對在洗錢上億以上的金額去加重法定性第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4838.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4867.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
就有關於洗錢防制的部分如同為什麼我們行政院一直在說這是打詐是法這是打詐是法因為這個部分的處理跟在內政委員會裡面那邊的打詐專法我們針對詐欺行為的太陽針對犯罪的所得事實上都有形度彼此之間相互配合的問題所以你說你要去跟在打詐專法那一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4869.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4894.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
詐欺犯罪詐欺犯罪他按照不同的金額的刑度去相協調相契合這件事情我是認同的但問題是什麼問題是我們現在在打詐專法那邊針對刑度的部分事實上行政院所提出來的版本跟我們在內政委員會裡面所提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4896.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4923.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
相對應的修正的部分就不一樣了所以我才會建議說法務部的聲音我們聽到了但這一條請保留下來因為到時候要協商的時候要比法定型的時候一定是我們司法法制委員會所處理的洗錢防制法跟內政委員會所處理的打詐專法那個部分在一億以上罰則的調整上彼此之間怎麼相契合 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4924.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4943.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
而不是在這邊把它割離開來做處理以上說明我了解我了解因為法務部的看法還有那個黃總召民眾黨的意見到底在犯罪實務上我去偷竊不法犯罪所得後面如果有人幫我洗我這個犯罪所能洗白我才能運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4944.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4960.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
洗錢的金額可能遠大於前面犯罪的人的小貓小狗的偷竊但是因為後面有這個洗錢的行為才注意去支撐前面的犯罪得以把所得拿來做支配使用所以某個定義上黃總召認為說那些專門幫人家洗錢為業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4965.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4985.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
他雖然不是從事前端的犯罪但是他所為惡的程度恐怕是滋長著這些前端的小比的這些詐欺、偷竊、這些不法行為我想觀念上是的確有不太一樣的地方我們是不是請司法院對刑度上的失衡的部分有沒有失衡的部分表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4989.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5011.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
謝謝委員那有關於刑度的部分我們覺得那前面的前置犯罪跟後面的洗錢的部分應該要做一個相關評論就我比較跟訪問部的立場是比較一次的那另外如果把它調成三年以上的話會涉及到強制辯護的部分那個又是另外一個要討論的課題這次部分我就做基本的說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5014.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5042.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
請問那個黃總召司法你還是覺得要把行動這樣子好那我想我是這樣子啦我是覺得聽起來都有他的道理啦到底前置犯罪跟後面的洗錢在現在的社會形態上哪一種才是元兇有人認為就是有後面那個大筆的專業洗錢者才能讓前面的這些小規模的犯罪取得所得得以稅刑讓他們可以得以支配但是在司法實務上也有你們在一些未來訴訟上 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5043.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5057.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
所進行運營到困難那這點我們就留待要交院會的時候院長的寫實還是我們來律師這個倒也不是什麼對跟錯啦這個聽起來有時候你都舉那個極端的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5058.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5064.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
黃某欣我們兩個來做詐騙集團我們要騙10億剛好吳思瑤你去洗他賺一輸了我們兩個去騙的你再逼我們兩個去擋這確實也很奇怪這確實也很奇怪我是覺得這個大家在認定上有一些基本上想像的差異這個我們就留待後續的協商那第20條是不是黃總召這邊也有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5087.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5112.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
沒有 第二十條一樣 它會牽涉到一併行度上面的處理那跟十九條跟二十條兩條之間是連動所以我是去建議說這兩條就一併保留我們到時候針對我們所對應本來十五條的部分也會再提我們的修正動議好 所以那個民眾黨的部分一個是六個月以上五年以下這個部分是一樣的沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5114.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5140.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
因為完形度都一樣啊只是說民眾黨的部分是罰金是五百萬以下行政院版是五千萬以下所以十五條因為它並沒有分成兩個層次耶而且它的定的罰金比民眾黨的還重那它所描述的方式也是符合前面十九條行政院版它的描述方式這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5141.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5159.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們若是就行路討論好像是在19條20條有行路上的差別嗎沒有 它就裡面實際上面寫的上面的內容在具體的款項上面跟他們對應起來的行為太陽也有不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5161.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5178.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我們看一下 20條行政院版的部分收受持有或使用之財物或財產上利益有下列情形之一沒有合法來源6個月以上5年以下並科5000萬罰金好那底下就1、2、3有三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5178.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5204.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那民眾黨的第十五條呢他是上一樣前端是一樣收受持有或使用是財務或財產上利益得命本人這個就多了這個部分要叫他就來源提出說明那如果沒有辦法的話就是六個月以上五年以下但是罰金是五百萬那底下呢有一二三四五六 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5205.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5211.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
六款表達的什麼方式就只有六款法務部要不要說明一下跟台民黨的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5216.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5243.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
跟總召跟委員報告我們第20條就是我們台南原來15條其實它是一個你洗錢你的洗錢金額裡面有無正當來源的話另外要有一些客觀的表徵我們才論以這個特殊的洗錢所以這我們要特別的小心我們不會因為某個人的帳戶裡面有錢就要論以他特殊的洗錢所以我們列了這個三款的事由 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5244.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5267.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
做一個比較限縮的客觀的表徵當然我們台聯黨列了更多的表徵這涉及到一個財產無合理來源的懷疑跟客觀表徵的限縮的一個權衡所以我們法務部後來權衡這兩者之後我們用院版的第20條做一個比較限縮的客觀表徵來做一個立法上的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5269.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5292.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好 那麼我想法務部說明說這個20條跟前面19條其實差別不是在跟19條連動是20條跟台灣民眾黨15條在客觀表徵的描述上有些差異啦當然行政院版的罰的部分五千萬是比五百萬重啦但是呢要怎麼樣去認定的這些客觀表徵定的比較限縮那請問羅委員有沒有沒意見兩位黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5306.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5327.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
所以來黃總長我們的意見還是一樣就秦寶仁因為事實上啊剛剛我有請教山山委員啊這個事實上是110年的時候你們的布板嘛所以你們後來到行政院的時候再就再把他的範圍啦再做線再把他的範圍再做線來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5331.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5355.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
各位報告事實上原來這個佈板是公告後因為外界有些疑慮認為這個設成範圍過廣包括民間思考會、律師界也好你這設成過廣會亂及無辜因為這是一個你無合理來源你就要去錄一個特殊洗錢嘛所以後來再次我們召開各界廣大意見之後把這個更narrow一點所以才會有現在的願版大概是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5366.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5367.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
是否可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5369.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5390.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
爭取一下民眾黨的委員我們當時提這個佈板就是因為也想尊重這個法務部他們在執法上面的態度這也是一個那第二個就是說你們今天限縮了那有一些比如說裡面可能還是有問題的部分是不是也可以含涉到你現在的範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5392.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5409.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
還是哪一些會漏掉對,就是我覺得還是說明清楚如果你要回到這邊啊你刪掉這條的原因是什麼這條會濫殺無辜還是這條會無限上綱那每一項我覺得是不是都請法務部做個說明比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5412.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5432.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
華府現在有辦法做說明嗎我跟在場委員商量一下因為我們今天在洗方法上有三個案洗方法目前大概第五條、第二十四條都OK那第十九條那個刑度的問題留待院會前去協商那如果第十二條能夠有合理的處理我們只要處理一個刑度十九條的刑度就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5433.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5454.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那大家在思考的我先借來跳來宣讀一下附帶覺得的部分剛剛幾位委員看過了按由數位發展部應於本法修正通過後兩年內會商金融監督管理委員會提出第三方支付服務業之管理規則並共同於 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5458.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5479.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
六個月內就第三方支付服務業之洗錢防制相關監管業務移轉至金融監督管理委員會進行研議提出書面報告送交立法院好 這個負債局的內容就是要去研議怎麼樣把這個洗錢防制業務移給金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5481.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5500.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
但是速發部要在本法通過的兩年內跟金管會來提出一個第三方支付服務業的管理規則大概是這樣的附帶決議內容請問我們速發部跟金管會有沒有拿到了附帶決議有我先等一下金管會OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5502.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5527.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
鄭大伯你書畫簿呢?好 那我們這個附帶決議剛剛看過了那我們的第五條就按照協商內容通過然後並附帶決議好不好那現在我們就第五條、第24條一個是按協商修正動議的內容協商內容通過24條照行政院提案通過第19條保留第20條的部分請法務部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5529.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5558.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這邊也跟黃珊珊委員報告原來民眾黨所提的4563款事實上我們現在把它寫到我們的第三款了只是它的描述方式不一樣我們用規避第八條、第十條至第十三條所定的洗錢程序把它全部抓到那邊去了所以它基本上跟民眾黨所提的內容是不會差太多的他只把全部都拿過去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5559.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5560.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5587.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5611.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我想詢問一下法務部因為我看一下公務員財產來源不明罪的那個處罰那他沒有所謂的那個刑期的地板嘛那但他天花板是五年以下然後居或科或病科不明財產來源額度以下的罰金我是不知道這個條文是韓社是規範對象是 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5615.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5637.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
是全部的 《貪污罪條例》嗎 《貪污罪條例》第六條之一嗎我講說第20條啊 第20條你 財產來源不明的這個部分羅偉的意思啦 是 在公務人員財產來源不明的行路是這樣然後現在這個概念設成到一般民眾的是這樣是不是會失衡 羅偉的意思是這樣 對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5639.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5665.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這樣子,你有沒有聽懂?有阿吼對,那我是覺得...他的...他的要...我們公文...我們《通修條例》裡面六條之一他的要件跟這邊差很多完全不一樣他的要件跟這邊差...差...差非常的多收受持有或使用財務或財務上利益我...我跟你講我是...我是對一般民眾就到這個刑度齁到這種處罰我是有疑慮的啦就這麼簡單啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5666.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5693.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
太輕還是太重太重太重你說公務員員我覺得參議員不明我覺得是該規範了但是你說比例性的問題我知道我初步感覺有點餘地我要先還是要你那是20條嗎對對對20條因為他不知道那個是不法屬的這是沒有合理的你的控理就大概是這樣所以所以那個志強委員來 委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5695.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5718.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
所以你說的是民眾黨的第一款嘛對不對二十條的第一項民眾黨的也是第一項第十五條第一項那個我想剛羅委員是說如果以公務人員洗錢的話財產來源不明呢的刑度跟一般民眾洗財產來源不明如果有財產不明的話刑度上好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5719.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5748.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
公務員的沒有中很多啦現在行政院的二十條已經拿掉這個啦不會不會現在是這樣子現在是來讓次長解釋我跟盧委員報告啦我們的當初這條例的六條之一的公務員財產來源不明罪他只是你公務員只要在特定表證你無法合理的說明沒有辦法合理說明本身就可能構成犯罪但是我們這個我們這二十條這邊除了來源不明你還具有其他的客觀行為的表證我剛才提到的一到三款這些表證 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5749.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5760.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
他其實已經是進一步的客觀上已經接近於洗錢的行為了對 他已經接近於洗錢行為跟我們的當初的六條之一不一樣好 那我們二十條已經討論完了啦因為上次我們審查會就已經通過了啦好 那我現在開始來就通過 那我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5781.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5782.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
第五條照協商內容通過降落附件 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5791.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5819.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
第十九條保留送院會處理第二十四條照行政院提案通過其餘均照審查會審查結果通過新增附帶券一項降入附件好 那這樣我們就洗房法就到這裡告一段落好 謝謝那跟洗房法有關下面我們就是課偵法和通保法那跟以下兩個協商案件無關的部會機關代表我們就可以先請休息離席 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5828.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5857.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
委員換位 珊珊委員珊珊稍待議事人員將協商結論書面製作完成後及交由委員簽名那第一案的部分先請那個第一案的部分在哪裡好 那請委員稍等一下那我們開始進行下一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5874.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5876.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
好我先見我先見好了沒關係啦好來三三 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5897.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5921.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好來我們接著進行第二案併案協商那麼司法法制委員會審查行政院函請審議科技偵查及保障法草案案及院會禁錄二讀委員蔡宇等委員林怡瑾等提案那本案審查會前於6月5日審查完略審查情形名稱第一條至第11條均照行政院提案通過並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商令院會第18次會議將委員蔡宇等 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5927.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5943.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
提案禁負二讀第十九次會議再將委員林井等提案禁負二讀與相關提案併案協商以上共計三案與今日併案進行協商那麼現在呢請在與會的委員表示意見來那個有好那請 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5949.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5957.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那個主席我們上次在委員會討論的時候我記得我們大家有共識啊就柯真法的部分到時候是要跟刑訴一起處理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5961.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5983.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們那個時候我記得大家獲制的共識是這個樣子所以我是建議說今天今天就柯真法的部分那看你跟吳宗憲委員因為就刑訴的部分應該是中歐國民黨黨團要負責協商那是不是由民進黨的召委跟中歐國民黨的召委你們去商量 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5984.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5998.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
看你們兩個誰要主持兩個案子併案協商還是兩個召委都同意就直接丟給院長那邊由院長召集協商因為我記得那天討論的時候大家的共識是很清楚的這兩個法案是要一起來協商處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5999.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6029.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
但是黃總要說明一下因為我們有一個修正動議的方式會有體力上的一個選擇問題那這樣好不好我先把先我們把這個修正動議先給委員站委員看然後我們先處理通保法因為通保法處理完之後我們再來看一看課真法跟刑訴法在體力上的選擇因為因應這個修正動議如果大家覺得這個修正動議有必要支持的話那我們可能再來處理好不好我們先處理通保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6035.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6054.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們第二案暫保留繼續進行第三案併案協商司法及法制委員會併案審查 行政院函請審議及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》等二案及院會經負二讀委員01等提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6055.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6065.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
本案審查會前於6月6日審查完畢審查情形第五條、第六條、第十一條之一及第31條保留其餘均由審查結果通過並決議院會討論前須交由黨團協商另院會第18次會議將委員林一卿等 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6073.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6100.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
提案近乎二讀與相關提案併案協商以上共計三案於今日併案進行協商那麼現在先請與會機關代表針對保留條文部分提出說明並請出席委員討論那麼剛剛的那個就請會場工作人員將柯政法的部分的修正動議先發給大家參考那我們接下來請機關代表就保留條文的部分開始表示意見保留的先是第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6106.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6128.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
來主席我建議可不可以我先說明一下修正動議然後他們就一併來回答你是說剛剛的通報通報法好通報法也有修正動議是吧就直接他們一次回應看我們的修正動議是不是接受那因為現在通報法有兩個修正動議在場那麼我們是不是就分別就兩個動議來做說明那先請吳世耀委員做說明再請民眾黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6131.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6157.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
請與會委員可以看一下我們民進黨這邊有修正動議那第五條第六條的部分我們是提出來修正動議那很簡單的說明就是為了讓通保法能夠去增加規範把一些犯罪的案類案型把它擴大納入嘛所以在第五條裡面我們增加了洗錢防制法21條的收不守條款 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6158.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6184.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
然後在《陸海空軍刑法》二十二條第一項的這個規範我們也把它納入我們的第五條裡頭然後一個重點就是我們這一次針對這個打炸的母法這個專法《詐欺犯罪妨害防治條例四》四條第一項所稱的這個複合型的詐欺犯罪也一併把它放進來所以應當是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6186.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6207.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
各種我們想像得到的這種都把它一併放入這第五條部分等一下委員可以看我們增加的都在不同的款項裡頭那第六條一樣我們也是增加了可以緊急上線的通訊監察相關的條文都把假期 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6208.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6226.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
打架專法裏面所規範的第43條所規範的高額假期的犯罪或者是打架專法裏頭第44條第一項複合型的假期犯罪也把它納進來我記得這是上一次我們在討論過程當中希望能夠去檢視跟打架專法裏頭所規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6229.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6245.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
草案類也要把它一併的擴增放入所以我們就做出這樣的修正動議那也給其他委員來參考好 謝謝委員的修正動議說明那麼就請大家看到修正動議的第三頁首先對第五條的修正是針對第十五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6246.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6259.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
入海工軍刑法原條文只有寫第二十二條第四項現在加入了第二十二條第一項前段以及第二十二款這是增列第二十二款所謂詐欺犯罪妨害 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6261.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6286.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
防制條例的第四十條第一項之罪那就很多然後立法理由說明也做了補充那另外第六條部分就是把中間就是刑法之後也加列了詐欺犯罪妨礙防制條例的第四十三條第四十四條第一項那立法說明也做了補充這是以上民進黨的一個修正動議那民眾黨的修正動議是不是要請總召來說說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6289.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6307.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個修正動議其實我們上一次在委員會討論的時候就已經提出來了也是上次在委員會討論的時候我們就直接請教法務部我們認為說就有關於詐欺犯罪危害防制條例的部分那你要並行的兩個同步要去修 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6307.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6330.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
因為你們之前行政院所提出來的版本在洗錢防制法的部分你們已經有預先針對調製做了調整納入行政院的院版只不過說上次在委員會討論的時候行政院的院版裡面並沒有針對有關於詐欺犯罪危害防制條例也就是所謂的打詐專法把它一併納進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6331.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6349.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以我們上次在委員會把這個問題提出來了以後那法務部當場也同意說應該要把它給放進去那所以我們上一次其實在委員會的時候那也謝謝其他的黨團的委員大家都有共同的支持把詐欺犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6352.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6367.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
維害防治條例我們上一次就已經有提出了我們的修正動議出來了第二個部分是說針對今天所在提出的民主進步黨的幾位委員所提出來的要把他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6368.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6391.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
要把44條也放進去我們當然是同意因為在委員會的時候這件事情其實也都是討論過他只不過說我要提醒了一件事情是說詐欺犯罪違反防制條例第44條第44條事實上在那一邊按照不同委員的版本按照不同委員的版本他不是只有第一項的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6393.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6412.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
他不是只有第一項的問題因為我們在內政委員會的時候針對這個打詐專法如果是透過如果是透過犯罪組織來犯的話如果是透過犯罪組織來犯的話那個在他實際上面不管是法意侵害的嚴重性罪質本身的要素跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6413.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6431.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我們一般所在講的是現在刑法339之事是一般所謂的聚合犯三人以上去搞就好了根本沒有去論那三個人到底是什麼樣子的關係今天這三個人講好了就去幹了跟他是一個犯罪組織在幹的他在罪質上面危害上面也 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6432.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6454.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
根本就不一樣所以我那個時候在那次委員會針對打詐專法的時候我們有提出修正動議我們認為說你如果按照我們的組織犯罪防制條例其實我們組織犯罪防制條例當初是從美國的RICO法案來的你如果按照美國RICO法案的精神你如果是用犯罪組織去犯其他的特定犯罪的時候它其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6455.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6462.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
按照本來不是透過犯罪組織去犯那個犯罪行為的時候在法定刑上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6464.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6487.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
因為它的構成要件要素已經不一樣當你是用犯罪組織去犯的時候它對於社會所造成的危害是更大的所以就那個部分我們在打詐專法的部分主張所以這個部分要加重提醒不可以按照一般不是透過犯罪組織的去做看待那否則的話以現行法的操作方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6488.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6515.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
你用組織犯罪去犯那些罪組織犯罪防制條例事實上全部都被想像淨核掉了啦一旦被想像淨核掉雖然法院說啊雖然想像淨核那想像淨核掉的他也會去考慮到他裡面的罪質等等等等但現實上面司法實踐出來的結果就不是這樣我所謂司法實踐出來的結果就是你去看實際上面法院的判決所判出來的刑度 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6516.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6543.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
就完全不是那個樣子所以拉回來現在我們目前所在處理的這個有關於通保法的部分就有關於通保法的部分就是加入詐欺犯罪防制條例44條這個沒有問題但有問題的事情是說你會連動到在打詐專法的那個部分因為打到專法那個時候44條到底過什麼樣子現在還沒有辦法確定所以你是不是要只把它限縮在第一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6548.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6556.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
法務部說明根據法務委員報告草棄防罪條例第四十條的部分早上已經協商過只留第一項已經沒有第二項第三項第一項長什麼樣子第一項就是院版的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6576.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6591.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
就是三人以上院版44條第一項你們今天上午的協商結論可以給我看嗎那是內政委員會另外已經黨團協商了 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6594.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6606.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那這樣好不好這個部分齁我先做一個處理那這個黃總召要看上午內政委員會的協商那是不是我們有沒有辦法協助找到內政委員會的協商有齁那你 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6608.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6628.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
先請黃總統看一下在黃總統要談的時候我來說明一下目前這兩個修正動議其實民眾黨的修正動議跟民進黨的修正動議在第六條的部分是一樣的只是說我們這裡有多了一個前面的第十三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6631.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6647.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
有多了一個第十三款請大家再看一下民進黨的修正動議第十三款他是寫洗錢防制法第十九條至第二十一條原條文是寫洗錢防制法第十九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6648.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6653.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案第十五款入海工軍刑法第22條第一項前段 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6669.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6696.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
另外一個補儀的部分請大家可以看到第一頁就是民進黨的修正動議第一頁最下面它的這個319條之三少了一個第字這是寫的漏字應該書寫的時候能漏了第319條之三這是目前針對修正動議的第五條部分先處理民進黨的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6701.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6723.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
民眾黨的部分在第十五條的部分除了前面之外他在後面的第二十二款的部分文字內容是一樣的所以看完了之後黃總召你看完了嗎那請因為上午的那個協商我沒有參加所以我沒有看到那樣的協商結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6728.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6731.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
不是啊 你們把那個組織犯罪的部分把它拿掉了喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6735.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6759.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
各位報告那當時我們的意見是說他會有重複評價的問題啦不是啊怎麼會有重複評價的問題啊因為你先用組織犯罪他就已經成立組織犯罪的內涵部分就已經評價他的詐欺行為一次等一下等一下先提一下你說組織犯罪跟他的詐欺行為評價是一致的這是兩個不一樣的犯罪行為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6760.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6783.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們的組織犯罪是你要犯特定的犯罪三人以上一堆構成要件所以在成立組織犯罪前提時他犯了某一個罪而構成組織犯罪所以這個詐欺行為已經被組織犯罪評價過一次那我們如果說是按照我們黨團版的話他是詐欺犯罪再犯組織的話他就又被評加重又再加重了一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6785.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6806.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我這樣講絕對沒有重複評價的問題啦組織犯罪是組織犯罪你透過組織犯罪的方式去做有關於詐欺的行為有關於詐欺的行為這是兩回事啊就我沒有辦法理解也沒有辦法接受你剛剛所講的說什麼組織犯罪被詐欺評價過 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6808.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6815.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
各位報告因為組織犯罪前提是你要犯這個最重本性五年上的罪比如說詐欺好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6816.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6837.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
前提你要構成組織你要犯這個罪在三人以上再加上集團性、牟利性這些要件所以嘛你也知道嘛你們現在在刑法裡面339之事他就採取一個最簡單最便宜的立法方式嘛三人以上嘛對三人以上你們就加重了嘛對對嘛好那我現在問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6838.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6856.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們在犯罪組織的定義上會是三人以上就成立犯罪組織嗎不會嘛還有其他的要件嘛那為什麼會有其他的要件因為如果是有組織性的結構的話它對於整個治安對於整個法律破壞所造成的侵害程度更深嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6857.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6878.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
所以我一直在講講的內容是什麼是你如果是透過犯罪組織去犯那些刑法上面的罪的時候跟我們一般去犯刑法上面那些罪的時候它所產生的危害是完全不一樣的但我們現在在實務上面操作下來的結果就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6879.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6899.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你們組織犯罪的部分跟第一次的詐欺行為就把它想像淨和掉了嘛所有的判決全部都是這樣寫的嘛所以導致了什麼?所以導致的是說你事實上透過犯罪組織去做詐欺跟三人以上去做詐欺在我們現行法的法定型的規範結構下面論其實際的評價是一模一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6903.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6931.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
當然為什麼會提修正動議會提修正動議就是你透過犯罪組織去搞跟一般的三人以上去搞這是兩種完全不一樣的罪質耶完全不一樣的罪質耶在完全不一樣罪質的情況之下我們竟然是透過相同的法定型的Range去評價不合理的地方在這裡所以我才一直跟你們講說當初我們在引進組織犯罪防制條例的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6932.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6947.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
是看美國的RICO法案那你進一步真的去看美國的RICO法案就會發現說在RICO下面它寫得很清楚你如果是透過犯罪組織去犯下面的罪它是一連串全部都把它列出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6949.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6969.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
他所犯的那個罪的法定形是會變動的跟本來犯那個罪的法定形是不一樣的所以我才希望說我們這一次竟然要搞打詐專法特別是我們要打擊的是什麼打擊的是現在在搞這些詐欺的犯罪組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6970.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6993.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
在搞這些詐欺的犯罪組織更要加重處罰它跟我們一般在詐欺的形態跟在社會上面所造成的危害是不一樣的謝謝總統好因為我們現在對話的焦點是上午內政委員會的協商那我們現在組織性犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6994.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7012.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我這樣說明好了啦上午協商的內容我還沒有看過我還沒有簽啦因為上午那個協商我真的還沒有看過所以就這個部分你說詐欺組織犯罪防制條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7014.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7033.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
44條還是只限於44條第一項是不是可以拜託保留一個空間我們等到打詐事法包起來的時候統合性的處理如果到時候我們說服不了大家大家還是認為說犯罪組織的部分跟沒有犯罪組織的部分我們相同看待就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7034.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7060.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那這個部分限於第一項我OK但我希望保留一個機會那個機會我還是想爭取啦因為我真的拜託法務部你們回去看一看過去這幾年所發生的事情台灣的犯罪組織為什麼那麼囂張組織犯罪防制條例快被架空了啦全部都被想像淨和掉了那個組織犯罪防制條例是導致我們社會一直在罵 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7063.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7090.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
對於這些黑幫怎麼感覺好像大家不要緊你最後判刑出來的時候你找一百個案件九十五件以上組織犯罪防制條例本來要處罰的內容跟對象全部都被想像進而掉了啦只剩下339條之四啦我就是因為看到這樣子實際上面法律操作的結果然後我們實際上面在面對這些犯罪組織的時候沒有辦法重罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7091.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7106.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
導致社會上面大家很火大所以我才希望藉由這次修法的時候一併把過去在立法以及法院實務上面合併操作出來的結果希望這次的修法能夠有所改正 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7107.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7134.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
理解 那吃的還在說明嗎 我了解意思那如果這樣是不是建議就是說我們把第一項拿掉的話無論44條未來通過哪個版本都可以使用對啊 可以啊好 來那我們這樣子齁那接下來齁我們剛剛也有討論過了那所以呢第五條跟第六條涉及到詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的第43條第44條後面的第一項就不入了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7136.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7161.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那第五條是如此第五條的第二十二款也是如此第六條的也是如此那麼至於其他的內容我們就按照第五條跟第六條就按照協商的結論通過 可以嗎可以好 謝謝那我們繼續看第第十一條之一你說對不起對不起 請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7165.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7189.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
呃呃跟主席報告一下因為基本上齁我還是一樣跟我在這個委員會的時候意見是相同的啦齁那對有幾樣東西我是還是有很多的保留但是因為說真的大家已經都這個一直送到這個地方來很多東西齁我也來不及去做一些補強的處理齁那我先講我我還是有保留的部分有疑慮的部分齁就是在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7190.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7195.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
通訊使用者資料及通訊記錄及網路流量記錄無區分嫌疑人及第三人針對事後通知及損害賠償 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7213.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7232.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
提了這個兩個修正案現在嗎沒有沒有已經今天那個昨天今天早上進負二讀啦那我希望說是到時候我提的是等一下我看一下喔提的是第15條第19條的條文修正案喔喔喔第15條到時候我希望能夠併起來至少再做一點補強啦因為我還是講 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7234.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7257.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
事前我覺得我們的那個不管司法警察跟所有的檢察官你有打詐或任何針反犯罪的一個所謂急迫性的必要那就是損益權衡的問題嘛那你要侵害人民法益到什麼程度但是你為犯罪針防你所得獲得的那個時效利益多大但是這都不能夠去用來解釋事後你的便宜行事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7257.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7282.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那事後通知這件事情起碼讓當事人知道自己被偵查了那他也會有相應的救濟的一些措施那另外像我們在針對通訊監察有隨事後通知也有所謂的損害賠償責任的一個附加那這個部分都是我在提的那個修正案裡面我會提到的所以到時候我希望說能夠一起併到我們院會來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7284.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7308.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
跟委員說明因為既然是院會交付進戶二讀那這個我們今天沒有辦法在這裡做協商所以我們這邊協商出去之後在院會二讀的時候一樣會處理好不好好那謝謝您的寶貴意見那這樣第五條第六條之後我們來處理第十一條之一十一條之一對請那個莊委員十一條之一是這樣子通保法來 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7312.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7325.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個我在質詢的時候我也請那我的立場就是說希望能夠對因為我們現在我們的協商沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7326.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7342.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
沒有你的案子所以我們沒有辦法就你的案子做協商但是呢到了二讀的時候二讀的時候我們這個因為院會同時有一個進入二讀的就院會直接在那裡因為我們這個委員會這個黨團協商完一樣是交到二讀那邊去所以那個時候應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7344.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7372.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
業長的協商要院長協商那個一定要到院長協商因為如果現在沒保留直接到二讀的話你要當壞人出面拉協商下來因為如果沒保留送直接院會是不能發言不能討論不能提修正動議所以今天如果有委員的意見要納進來的話今天不能沒有保留直接送院會還是要送院長講這個有一個好處我瞭解了我這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7374.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7403.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們今天的內容就算是都同意了未來您的案子在院長主持朝野商一樣是會拿出來處理不是說把我們的案子拉下來因為我們這個未來送到惡毒前院長因為有一個惡毒近乎惡毒的案子在他手上所以他就要來主持一個朝野協商不會因為我們有沒有保留因為我們這裡就我們現有的內容沒有要保留嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7404.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7426.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
但是到了二讀前因為有個近乎二讀的在院長那裡所以院長本來就會就您院會交付近乎二讀的跟我們委員會送出去經過黨團協商的一起處理啦所以我們不需要在裡保留啦因為羅志強今天剛好今天的協商裡面確實是沒有你的案子啦你到院會可以但是我是這樣覺得他剛提到這個通保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7428.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7443.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
11條之一的部分我也來表達一下我一直的看法就是說我請法務部這個地方再去考量一下因為我記得我在質詢的時候我就就教過我們法務部跟司法院的意見就是說為什麼我們在這個通訊使用者的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7444.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7468.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個個人資料的部分反而沒有獲得程序上的這些保障我要記得當初次長你的回應是說秘密通訊自由的部分這個個資相較於通訊這個有內容的部分你說認為是比較輕微的為什麼一直我有不同的看法就是說你這個個資的自主權跟秘密通訊自由這個部分其實是兩個不同的派樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7470.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7498.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
講更嚴重一點是兩個不同的一個基本權你要去講說誰高誰低你去把它看我們這111年這個憲判制第一號的判決書裡面就去強調你取得跟利用個人資訊的目的範圍跟這個程序這樣的一個重要事項裡面都應該去依個人資訊的一個屬性取得的方式像比如說你要利用的目的跟範圍要有一個正當的法律程序所以我談到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7499.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7517.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
就是說你怎麼樣去確保這個資訊不受濫用不當的揭露這樣的一個適當防護機制其實重點我很清楚要講的就是說這個不會增加檢察官的那個你們的負擔我一直認為說這個部分是不是至少你也要檢察官保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7519.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7534.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
是否可以再考慮一項因為第一項你說警察就可以調取通訊使用者的一個資料然後就對整個資訊就是個資的部分這個保障是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7535.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7562.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
充分因為偵查所我們這個整部法律就是在談的就是在談的是要加強讓偵查其實真實的發現其實也講難聽一點就是增加偵查的一個便利性便利性但是是不是只單從從偵查的便利性去做考量是不是也應該考慮到說授權的依據跟你這個整個程序這樣的一個保障才會更周延是不是請這個次長這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7565.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7569.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
你再回應一下 或者再考慮一下至少你要講一下 我們保留啊來 那請次長說明 黃次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7576.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7595.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
各位報告這個我們在審查的過程當中已經互相討論過很多次本部還是認為就是說這個升登人的資料使用者的資料他其實只有你在跟訂契約的時候所簽的個人的姓名住址跟身份證資料這種最簡易型的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7596.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7612.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這個沒有涉及到互相之間的通聯記錄的內容更沒有內容而且我跟委員報告其實我們這不是我們台灣獨創的在德國的《刑訴法》它其實就這個也讓司法警察他可以獨自去調起這個升登人的個人的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7614.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7640.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
因為就如同我一再說明的就是說他當然會有對隱私會有一點點影響沒有錯但他就從層級化保障的角度來看是不是所有的這種個人的升登資料都要經過檢察官保留事實上我們檢察官司法檢察現在在辦案的時候他調賬戶資料或調各種的個人的升登資料司法警察及職權的行使調查目的現在事實上他們都在做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7640.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7657.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那只是說這邊規範在通保法我們手機現在到底是誰申請的這件事情要不要到檢察官來核這件事情需要不要到保留到這種程度我請司法院那個廳長你也表達一下你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7660.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7677.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
審議委員的指教有關於使用者資訊這個部分如果我們參考德國的法制的話它是用行政命令的方式就可以調取並沒有拉到說有法官保留或是檢察官保留但是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7679.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7695.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們把它層級化處理的話就如同剛剛次長所講的我們要層級化處理單純的使用者資訊它能揭露或侵害到人民的基本權的干預程度高不高如果我們想到現實的狀況之下包括車籍資料的調取 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7695.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7712.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
大概也都沒有任何的所謂的保留的問題而且符合我們一般的偵查的需要並沒有違反我們的偵查目的跟偵查的便利性對個人的侵害我想大概還是有一點權衡可能沒有那麼嚴重這是我補充的說明上 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7714.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7741.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
好 謝謝現在我們進行的是第十一條之一那分別在上次委員會保留的有台灣民眾黨的提案以及我們那時候保留行政院的提案那目前這兩個提案的差異當然今天還包含了由院會交下來二讀的林一錦委員的提案那這裡面我說明一下民眾黨的版本就跟行政院版的版本是要有檢察官依職權或司法檢察官報警檢察官許可後調取 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7743.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7744.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
立法院朝野黨團擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7744.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7770.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
急迫使司法檢察官可以進行調取但是調取後要報請檢察官許可所以民眾黨團的版本是屬於一個緊急的時候是由司法檢察官大概原則上還是屬於檢察官保留的部分事後要取得檢察官的許可那剛剛法務部的意見跟司法院的意見都認為類似這樣使用者的申請登記的申登資料包括在車籍其他的方面都是屬於一種行政調查的就會取得的範圍那這點就請在場委員參酌一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7774.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7801.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那麼請問黃總召台灣民眾黨的看法你們有沒有要沒有對11條之一我必須要老實說刑事警察局的同仁他們非常負責任的有來進行報告也有來進行說明對於現在警察他們整體在處理案件量上面的負擔整體上面的負擔我們100%都收到了我們100%都收到了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7805.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7824.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
11條之一會比較特殊的地方是在於說因為上一次通保法修正的時候立法上面計數的錯誤導致按照以前舊的通保法就很荒謬就檢察官要去跟法官申請警察要警察就可以直接搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7825.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7852.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那因此有在這樣的背景之下這一次直接把它放到就有關於司法警察官的部分他們要去調取這件事情我必須要說就是原則上原則上這個方向我們認同但我們現在在同時在猶豫的一件事情是那是不是也可以請法務部跟刑事警察局這邊協助一下就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7854.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7879.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
針對我們第一個放直接放給那個司法警察或司法警察官在調取的時候我們怎麼樣去建立了一個事後的控制跟查核機制那這個事後的控制跟查核機制是不是有可能請你們稍微思考一下我們就直接把它補在這一次的通報法裡面不要再用 不要再用 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7880.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7897.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
其他的方式來加以處理因為我很怕那個承諾會是空的啦我很怕那個承諾會是空的因為其實德國他們相關事後的監察跟控制的機制因為他們不像我們現在已經分散到很多特別法全部都規定在刑事訴訟法裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7898.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7926.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
他們的刑事訴訟法裡面是直接有建立這樣子的機制在控管的我相信司法院非常的清楚那這個其實也可以某個程度上去呼應到其他的委員大家針對十一條之一包括鐘瑞雄委員我相信他絕對不是要阻礙警察去偵查犯罪他會去猶豫到說猶豫到說如果沒有控管好的話對於在人權上面所可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7927.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7953.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
會產生的侵害對於各自特別這個是牽涉到比較機敏資訊的部分那就這個部分是不是有可能說我們取得一個平衡點那個平衡點是說我們同意放直接放給司法警察第一線你們就去做因為我知道你們現在很辛苦上次刑事警察局都有來說明過了但這個同時針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7957 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7973.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
放給你們做了以後怎麼樣做一個事後的監督跟控管的機制也可以同時處理的起來因為我很怕說在這邊就點頭了一點頭直接交給警察做了以後那未來如果有什麼樣子的狀況的話那到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7977.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8003.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這件事情我覺得在這個階段我寧願在現在這個階段還是希望說法務部也好因為法務部基本上你們也認同就直接交給警察嘛檢察官認為說不要來找我啦不要找我我現在很忙啦一堆警察來找我警察也累檢察官也累我們都理解但在處理這件事情的時候我們還是要回到一般人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8004.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8028.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
他們的立場來去思考這一件事情這個是第一個我要講的事情第二個我要講的事情是說因為台灣民眾黨沒有召委我們沒有排案權但我希望利用這一次黨團協商的時候公開呼籲一下不管是民進黨的召委鐘嘉賓還是中國國民黨的召委吳宗憲因為這個打造事法我們列為在7月16號 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8033.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8058.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
之前要把它完成的優先法案我們全力支持所以我們在跟時間賽跑我所謂在跟時間賽跑是我們希望打造司法在7月16號之前能夠把它處理完成但並不代表中間重要的事情可以不處理所謂中間重要的事情可以不處理是說上一次我們在討論到網路流量紀錄的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8061.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8085.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
上次討論到網路流量因為這也是在11條之一的射程範圍內只不過給錢的那個條文不在11條之一給錢的那個授權的規定要給電信業者錢的規定我們上次過了但上次我們在委員會審的時候我必須要老實說我相信在委員會審所有的委員腦袋裡面都沒有概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8086.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8108.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
要給電信業者錢我們在討論的金額是第一次的建制費用就上百億了我們上次在委員會討論的時候我覺得我們必須要負責任的講最起碼對我來講我那時候坐在那邊討論過那個授權的條款你一方面科與電信業者義務嘛你另外一方面授權說要編經費給他嘛錢要給他嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8111.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8135.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我們那時候在審這個條文的時候我真的不知道我也沒有想到那個建制的經費是上百億那因為建制的經費是上百億所以之前在委員會的時候質詢我才請法務部說你們那個上百億的基礎到底是怎麼出來的要講清楚因為我們在過這個條文的時候我必須要老實講幾乎是頭過身就過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8138.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8153.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
投過身就過了你刻了人家這個義務法律要授權說你要給人家錢但後來後續你們所提供的資料就是你們後來用1800萬給中華電信做了一個委託研究嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8153.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8168.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那個委託報告我看完了那個委託報告裡面有很多問題那個問題不適合在黨團協商來談所以我才說我希望如果716以前我們要順利把這個東西大家都覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8169.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8194.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
沒有掛礙的把它送出去的話那希望不管是民進黨這邊的召委還是國民黨這邊的召委針對網路流量紀錄我們通就是說委員會出審上次沒有保留的那個條文接下來到底要怎麼做以及電信業者他們那個時候中華電信拿的那1800萬的委託報告怎麼樣去算說三大電信業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8195.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8205.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
各要給30幾億因為我後來把那個報告我自己研讀完了也去請教了相關領域的專家那個裡面要處理的問題還真的蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8205.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8232.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那所以我是利用這個機會公開呼籲說希望未來委員會有機會能夠排一次專案報告把相關的主管機關包括法務部、調查局、刑事警察局甚至當初做這個拿了1800萬做這個委託研究報告中華電信的都可以一併請來在我們正式讓法案二讀三讀通過以前針對這一次大家很關注的網路流量紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8233.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8240.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
能夠有一個比較充實的討論以及知道我們這個東西過了下去以後實際上面實際的影響以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8242.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8267.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
好 謝謝後面黃總召的呼籲其實我這邊大概7月15號還有一次事實上這個流量記錄的部分是在我們上次委員會審查通過的第三條之一那它這裡面寫了有六個項目那這六個項目後續也真的誠如剛剛黃總召說的我們都很關心也找了電信業者跟相關的執行單位那我們也覺得這個部分後續要有更完整的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8268.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8288.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
但是因為他不在我們今天的範圍那我會剛剛黃總召的呼籲我們努力的在後續的委員會審查當中把這個部分把它做得更充實那另外剛剛第十一條之一的部分聽起來那個是之一的第一項我說第四項我還有一點看法第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8290.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8309.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
第十一條之一的第四項是不是我是不是也請教我們那個司法院的議廳長你看我們那個十一條之一第四項的南瓜很多重大的一個罪行檢察官許可以後可以來調取這個通訊記錄跟網路流量記錄這個你採取一個重罪獵取的一個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8310.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8334.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這次修法也列舉很多像是洗房法跟兒少性剝削等等這也就是說我們在特定犯罪就完全不受有令狀程序的一個保護這個在理論上我就覺得有點沒辦法自圓其說因為你南瓜的罪行這麼的多你基本上就是說這個將同條文裡面對人民的資訊自主權這個部分的一個侵害部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8335.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8337.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
從最低的你那個干預授權採取檢察官保留可是那最高的通聯的部分是法官保留原整會不會有架空的一個問題我要特別講的就是說請各位再仔細思考一下如果說你未來把這個適用列舉所謂的重罪條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8353.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8367.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
當然就是說因為重罪這個部分有受害人急迫性但是我們在第五項已經有急迫情況之下都可以相對的法官保留那這樣的調取通訊紀錄跟網路流量紀錄的規範難道不夠用嗎這位廳長你會怎麼看請李廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8376.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8398.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這個是延續原先通保法第十一條之一的架構而來的原先的條文就是採取檢查官保留的形式在處理所以基本上他當時在第一項他就是三年以上有檢查官保留包括調取相關的紀錄這個部分這部分要不要採取法官保留那個是選擇的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8400.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8411.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那尤其是在這種重罪之下他有一個急迫性那在這種重罪列舉之後可能就偵查為了偵查所需還是採取檢察官保留這個來做處理以上我的意思就是說你第五項也有急迫之下你都有相對法官保留我意思說你這樣武器甘真真不夠你看你那個第四項你變成多肥大你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8425.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8430.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
你那個比條文本身多那麼多你到最後那個所謂的干預授權令狀主義你還要變空談啦 我跟你講想一下 想一下會不會有這個問題我再次提醒啦 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8440.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8468.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我這個剛剛莊委員所提示的第四項我們再思考一下那剛剛第十一條之一其實剛剛那個黃總召也提出了他們在經過行政警察局的說明之後他們覺得第一項就是通訊使用者資料就升登資料的部分呢希望還是可以留下一個可動清查的記錄那這裡面我請教一下我們試著如果剛剛主席按照大家的意見表達在第一項的得調取之句號後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8469.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8493.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
假設如果我們有一個修正東西大家可以接的話那其一辦法另定之就是表示說你這個調取還是要有一個辦法那這個辦法當中是不是把剛剛委員所關切的縱使是沒有檢察官保留調取的過程他可能可以要求調取的記錄要有一些留存在什麼情況之下可以被做複合或集合之用 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8494.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8520.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那因為就採取最小變動原則如果得調取之那其辦法另定之這樣的一個修正動議是不是可以讓大家委員所期待的有所附著啦這個部分齁那個法務部或行政警察局齁就是因為現在大家針對的是司法警察官可以調取之基本上是可以接受但是希望這個調取的紀錄是有留存可以讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8521.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8547.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
外部或者其他稽查之用是不會是完全不知道你調取了沒有那個行政警察局這邊的看法主席還有各位委員警政署行政警察局報告有關於剛剛黃委員所提就是有關於調取通訊使用者的記錄的部分的事後那個稽查部分警政署跟行政警察局 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8548.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8552.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
立法院朝野黨團擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案含具:「洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案含具:「洗錢防制 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8566.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8593.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
實施通訊監察的所有調取的這所有的留存的紀錄跟所有的程序來定期來做一個集合檢查那從今年的1月到5月相關院檢機關到我們警政署的通訊檢查機構已經有實施27次的一個稽查也就是說平均每個月超過5次有相關的院檢機關到我們的通訊檢查機關來做稽查那這個套的制度已經實施多年以來我們都是按照這個程序來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8594.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8613.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那未來如果我們通報法這邊授予警察在調取通訊使用者記錄或是包含流量記錄的部分我們都願意比照通訊監察的內容將相關記錄留存之後除了我們自己本身的內控機制以外我們願意比照 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8614.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8624.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
同樣讓院檢機關可以有這個來做一個稽查審核機制以確保整個法律程序的一個落實執行不會有任何的一個弊端產生 以上好 謝謝 那因為剛剛黃總長意思是說這不能說了齁願意說了就沒有了 還要畫押啦那資料寫在條文裡面 其辦法另定之還是有一個附帶決議 請黃總長 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8634.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8651.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那個如果按照你剛剛所寫的方向齁我們譬如說因為你在相次上面要插第二項還是要放到最後一項可以考慮你插到第二項就是前項資料之調取程序保存銷毀及事後監察之機制其辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8665.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8678.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
由主管機關擬定制不管是放在第二項還是放在最後一項那如果是這樣子的設計的話不曉得法務部這邊跟刑事警察局這邊是不是都OK大概思考一下因為最後一項是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8688.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8703.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
如果是前面的所有的包括檢察官、司法檢察官為偵查犯罪及蒐集證據那跟前面的第一項一樣嘛但是只要經用戶或電信使用人同意就可以調取他的通訊使用者資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8704.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8732.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
通訊紀錄、流量紀錄不受第一項至第八條之限他本來是在處理這個啦那現在呢我們要回歸來說是不是把第一項的這個調取紀錄齁能夠在最後一項這裡面把它表達了本來最後一項表達說要同意登在一項啦要不然在這地方後面你們本來這最後一項是說使用者同意就好了嘛用戶同意嘛那現在呢就要再一個第一項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8735.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8742.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
更明確化啦院受法院的這個稽查齁這個更明確化寫在後面啦來 那個 次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8745.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8769.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
原則上為了不避免造成這一個相次的連動我建議是擺最後一項它才不會連動如果我們改成這樣條文就是說通信者使用者資料調取資料保存、銷毀、監督、集合等相關事項之辦法由法務部、會同、內政部並會商相關機關定之這個是不是文字表達出來這個文字我OK |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8772.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8785.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
從保存到後面銷毀你那個前面那個調舉的程序是不是可以把它放進去因為我們等於是第一項給了一個滿蓋瓜的授權就警察他們認為有必要的時候他們就可以去調嘛那程序上面怎麼控管這件事情既然我們現在已經要有一個法律授權的辦法了那這個辦法也會讓你們的執法機關自己去定嘛因為我相信啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8801.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8829.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我們如果沒有法規授權的話你們一定是用行政規則level的東西在處理你們裡面到底是怎麼吊嘛因為警察絕對不可能沒有一個程序喜歡想吊就去吊那個太可怕了我相信你們現實上也不是這樣在運作你們現在內部一定有一個管理規則只不過你們現在欸對對對現在內部那個管理規則比較類似像行政規則level的東西那現在既然我們已經在法條裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8831.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8858.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
授權給他法規命令的性格所以我是說那個剛剛次長所講的那個文字原則上我都贊同但是可不可以把程序也把它給放上去等於是說他們現在在訂的這個東西你們到時候訂這個辦法的時候把這個程序也都把它內化進去這樣子其實警察局你們OK嗎好他們可以啦那文字上我們把它列印出來那再提供給大家我們就用修正動議來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8860.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8872.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好 那麼剛剛呢因為莊委員先離開齁莊委員所說的那個第四項的部分齁是不是司法院理事長或法務部次長你們對於剛剛莊委員的意見要不要做回應請 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8878.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8901.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
剛剛莊委員的意見是關於這第四項檢察官保留的部分事實上這個架構我們沒有變動原來修正前通保法的架構原來修正前通保法的架構就是採這種架構由檢察官保留我們這次修正只是把加了一個網路流量記錄進去而已它原來就是通保法檢察官這部分檢察官之前調集的檢察官保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8914.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8932.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那個司法院這邊因為這邊就是第四項跟後面新增的第五項原來的第四項其實就是原來既有條文沒有動啦但是因為我們新增了第五項嘛好那第五項跟第四項之間有沒有什麼樣的衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8933.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8960.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那個從形式上看起來應該是沒有衝突的是沒有衝突他只是增加了多列舉了幾個罪名而已那個第四項多列舉了幾個罪名認為說他們有實際的證明他們的立法體力如同剛剛司法院代表所講的沒有錯他不是增加這個新的立法設計那個立法設計本來就在那裡啦現在他只是把歷史的擴充嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8960.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8979.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那把歷史的擴充大家就要想清楚說針對上面所增加出來的那個罪名一條一條看大家有沒有認為不妥的因為剛莊委員的意思我相信莊越雄委員他的意思應該不是要打壞本來的立法結構設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8982.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9000.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
他應該因為這個不是這一次修法新增加本來就有就放在那個地方嘛這次只是把他的list稍微再多增加一點那當然未來那個list甚至這次要檢討也不是不行啦因為你連脫逃都放在裡面現在脫逃判多重對啊是啦是啦那所以啦就是那個list如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9010.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9040.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
委員們有擔心說裡面個別的罪把他放進去他覺得不妥那表達意見大家如果有共識你們執法也不會有困擾要把他拿掉我覺得這個是可以保留一個理性討論的空間因為我相信莊委員雖然走了但他剛發言我聽得很清楚他在後面應該去洗手間是不是看要不要問莊委員說上面有沒有什麼罪是他覺得不應該放進去被放進去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9042.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9063.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
等專文回到座位上之後我們繼續處理那剛剛所說的在陣列最後一項的部分是不是文字已經可以印給大家了印給大家了啦其實我們可以秀在螢幕上也可以不然最好還是書面大概簽一簽如果文字上可以的話我們再簽一簽就成為我們的協商的決定好那這段過程當中我再繼續保留把握時間31條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9066.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9074.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
因為上次有保留是不是三十一條在這裡就是關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9077.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9103.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個應該是要請教黃總召啦上次因為保留主要是您這邊有提到因為有關電信業者協力的義務那麼行政院版的法則刪除了撤銷許可或特許或許可那因為原來的法則在原來電管法裡面我們是可以撤銷的那現在電管法修正改為登記制那請問你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9105.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9128.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
你們對這個電信業者電信業者現在全部喔都改用準則主義喔應該不是這樣吧那你們有發執照嗎有發 有發如果有發執照那我把他撤銷執照他還可以營業嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9130.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9145.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
當然如果廢紙了就不行但是因為他的一個廢紙他是採取一個比較嚴謹的態度不好意思你講話大聲一點因為聲音有點糊在一起我聽不太清楚對你沒有不敬 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9147.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9169.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我這邊再跟委員補充報告就是說因為電管法它轉軌以後那電信事業已經沒有特許還有許可而改採這個登記制那依照電管法第五條的規定那目前三大電信事業它是必須是登記制它的一個法定義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9170.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9184.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那主要的考量就是說因為電信資源他是受到比較嚴謹的一個分配那電信事業他也必須要擔負保障民眾使用電信權益所以如果說廢紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9186.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9201.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
將會影響到眾多使用電信服務的民眾權益所以我們在這個電管法裡面其實它都有相應的一個監理上面比例性的一個考量那對於這些電信業 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9202.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9231.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
有關相關的一些監理違反的相關法則其實我們在電管法72條到82條都有如列各個違反的一個規定在這邊要補充就是說因為如果考慮到處罰的一個比例性我們在電管法79條的第一項第四款對於電信業如果他沒有依規定來提供通信紀錄的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9232.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9234.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9259.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9277.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
其實已經提高了五倍相對是比較高如果說要比例性來調整的話我們是建議說在目前行政院版本的修正草案50萬到250萬可以參考五倍可能可以調整為50萬到500萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9283.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9294.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
與以加重這樣可能就是相類近的違反行為是不是可以比較符合它的一個比例性以上補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9295.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9317.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
好 那個我要說明一下就是說本來的本來的那一個在處理上面本來在處理上面的罰則的部分我們是希望說讓主管機關手上的武器多一點不要讓電信業者解皮皮啦因為我上次其實也有跟NCC的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9319.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9342.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
對那個蔡處長嘛我有跟蔡處長溝通過因為我有時候說罰電信業人你對一般人來講罰個五十萬感覺是很重的啊你罰中華電信罰個五十萬那是什麼概念啊你不要就從他每年的營收慶利你罰中華電信罰五十萬好像在罰五塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9345.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9365.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
一樣嘛我本來是希望說讓你們主管機關在這個法律的授權下你們有比較多的武器可以去使用去要求在法律上面要求這個電信業者去履行他在法律上面的義務在履行他法律上面的義務那你剛剛所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9367.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9387.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
他有執照沒有錯執照把他廢止掉會影響很多用戶那我也可以理解但有的時候對他們來講在只有罰錢跟整個廢止中間你其實針對他裡面有關他可以去去從事的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9389.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9415.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
去管控他的業務範圍的部分也就是他的license因為針對電信業者你們不要再談登記制啦那當然要登記嘛你主要都還是透過你核發給他的license他才有辦法去做那些事嘛所以就有關於不是整個廢紙料喔限制業務其中的一步當成管制的手段你們認為有沒有必要對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9416.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9434.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
二、如果連這個你們也認為沒有需要因為我們現在不是在剝奪你們主管機關管制的可能性是在提供你們面對大電信業者管制的手段的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9435.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9462.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們剛剛就講了嘛在這法裡面的網路流量紀錄我先不要講那個建制費用上百億我後來就看了一下未來每一年的營運費用那三大電信業者一年大家分到個好幾億啊看起來會變成是這個樣子結果我們給他那麼多錢在旅行義務的情況之下他如果不配合我們重罰五十萬這敢不看 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9465.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9491.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我是請NCC你要去衡量到這一件事情要去顧慮到說我們在這個管制手段的有效性跟它的強制性的部分你說不要給NCC廢紙的權利這個我贊成你說的有道理會影響到全部用戶的但除了全部廢紙再單純罰錢中間有沒有其他的選項你們要還是不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9492.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9516.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
還是你認為說我還是沒有需要你只要給我罰還的權利就好了罰還的權利剛剛你也講了嘛說是不是從現在院版的五十萬到兩百五十萬稍微把它拉高五十萬到五百萬我再給NCC這一件事情我老實講我沒有堅持但我覺得NCC你們等一下講了柴文的立場我們大家都點頭你們未來要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9519.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9534.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
謝謝我想黃總召這邊提出一個思考的一個突破點如果去參考金管會在管制這些特許行業的時候他的手段很多限制他的發行新型商品限制他的業務開展限制他的分行設立數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9535.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9559.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
有太多太多了當然目前我們的電信業銀幕是特許行業但是目前電管法本質上它只有罰還並沒有其他的行政手段可以讓業者稍微除了繳錢之外讓他就範的一些管制作為這個部分要請NCC回去在電管法當中再去思考一下因為今天我們處理的不是電管法我們處理的是通保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9560.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9576.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那這裡面NC也表達如果參考他們原來電管法的規格應該五十萬到五百萬這個會比較相襯那如果是這樣的話各位委員覺得如何那剛剛先回答黃總召的意見是 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9578.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9596.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
非常謝謝黃委員的一個指導我想當然給行政機關多一點的一些武器我們非常感謝但是因為定管法還是有它整體的一個規範架構的一個整體性考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9598.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9618.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
對於有關廢紙在我們定管法應該廢紙的一個情勢他如果說有違反營運計畫有重大情節當然他也可以去執行這一個廢紙將來他這一部分其實也應該會納入他所謂的一個營運計畫裡面的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9620.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9629.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
自於說在這邊他個別上面沒有辦法配合的部分我們是認為說還是跟那個通訊記錄他沒提供的一個處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9636.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9657.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這個比較接近的這樣一個比例性來做考量會是比較適切而且過去的時務我們的了解執法機關所謂的一個調取應該電信事業還沒有說不配合的一個情勢這邊也特別提出來讓委員了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9658.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9683.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
沒有關係啦因為齁這個主要是要授權給你們管制手段嘛啊未來出了狀況反正主管機關就是要負責任嘛所以剛剛他也提到一個重點嘛齁說就是那這樣好了就按照NCC的建議我們31條的部分齁如果大家也都同意就按照剛剛NCC所他們表示的意見因為最終在面對這些電信機構的還是NCC嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9685.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9701.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那罰還的部分是不是就調整成五十萬以上五百萬以下這樣子其他委員呢對於我們第31條現場的一個協商建議是改為五十萬以上五百萬以下罰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9703.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9719.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
OK那如果在場委員覺得可以的話我們第31條就按照協商內容通過那另外呢回到第11條之一目前呢有一個修正動議剛剛已經請各位委員在審視了這相關計畫是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9733.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9758.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
來 法務部說明一下這個會商內政部之外的相關機關好 那請簽名好那30條我在這邊唸一次31條的修正動議11條之一的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9766.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9786.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
來11條我們增列最後一項我也數不出它是第幾項就是在這11項11條之一增列11項修正動議通訊使用者資料調取之程序資料保存、銷毀、監督、集合等相關事項之辦法由法務部、會同內政部並會商相關機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9790.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9802.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
好 那麼這是那是不是我們第十一條之一就照協商內容通過好 欸那個黃中央還有還有還有還有什麼等下跟你講一下對對對對對我怕你太急害我們都還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9803.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9825.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
是這樣齁我先宣讀一下齁那個本日會議協商主題三齁做協商結論如下那麼第五條第六條第十一條之一及第三十一條軍造協商內容通過降爐復建那二其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過好那這個要請大家簽齁那另外呢剛剛那個通 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9828.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9850.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
科證法的部分我一直認為科證法因為兩個交委排案所以嘉賓委員今天就是處理科證法的協商這是OK的那中線委員去處理刑訴的協商最後要併也是在那個朝野協商的時候去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9852.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9877.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我的認知是這樣因為大家今天都在這裡如果今天不處理我覺得是有點在程序上是有點錯誌的剛剛那個修正動議是不是有給大家了課證法的部分請大家看一下那個包括我們黃總召、莊委員、吳委員我說明一下目前手上大家看到有一個修正動議那這修正動議我們有甄列了 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9879.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9903.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
從十二條、十三條、十四條有增列的...從第幾條呢?增列了好幾條那我想說明一下因為原來柯真法當中對於違反柯真法濫權進行調查的行為並沒有做處罰的規定那所以呢我們這個動議當中就是觀察到對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9908.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9923.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
依依科證法來發動偵查的機關或行為人他如果是濫權作為那怎麼樣去規範它所以這個修正動議就補了這些條文請大家可以看到從12條開始從11條開始 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9926.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9950.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
十一條的部分就是違法實施第二條、第三條或第四條之調查者處二年以下有期徒刑、拘役或三十萬元以下罰金執行或協助執行第二條、第三條或第四條調查之公務員或從業人員假借職務或業務上之權利、機會或方法犯前項之罪者處五年以下有期徒刑、拘役或五十萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9951.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9968.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那再來第三項意圖盈利而犯前二項之罪者依各該項之規定加重其刑之二分之一然後呢再增列第十二條明知為違法時是第二條第三條或第四條之調查所得之資料資料而無故洩漏或交付之者 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9970.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9997.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
處三年以下有期徒刑拘役或三十萬元以下罰金意圖盈利而犯前項之罪者加重其刑至二分之一再增列第十三條因職務或業務知悉或持有依本法之規定實施第二條、第三條或第四條調查所得之資料而無故洩漏或交付之者處二年以下有期徒刑拘役或二十萬元以下罰金然後公務員或承認公務員之因職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9999.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10018.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
知悉或持有依本法之規定實施第二條、第三條或第四條調查所得之資料而無故洩漏或交付之者處三年以下有期徒刑意圖營利而犯前二項罪者依各該項規定加重其刑至二分之一最後還加上第十四條、第十一條、第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10019.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10031.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
第十二條第一項第十三條第一項須告訴乃論好那麼在這裡呢跟委員做跟我們前上代表做說明因為柯真法在我們之前的有保留嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10032.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10053.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
沒有保留因為那時候沒有保留但是在這段時間很多委員反映對於克正法目前所使用的包括什麼M化車包括這個耳熱顯像等等這些必要的偵查或打擊犯罪所必要偵查工具應該賦予但是在使用這些工具如果有逾越他偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10055.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10083.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
必要的範圍那麼濫權者應該要施以必要的問責那麼問責的條文就放在這增列的14個條文那也跟大家報告一下目前因為我們平行審查的關係《刑事訴訟法》的專章跟我們專法的科偵法一個是屬於制定法那制定法的部分要增設這些條文內容是目前我們經過協商就可以去處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10084.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10114.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
但是如果相關的這些內容問責的條款如果是放在刑事訴訟法的話由於刑事訴訟法這次的修正的專章當中並沒有涵蓋這些究責的條文所以可能會在刑事上沒有辦法安插進去那這點先跟各位協商代表說明那是否我們今天可以就這個部分那予以認可後我們再交給院長去進行未來立法例的選擇的協商以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10116.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10142.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
第一個我還是說我的結論之前就已經講好了這個部分要併同協商所以這個部分我就沒有辦法同意第二個現在中國國民黨人也不在對啊我們接下來的討論也不會有什麼太實質的意義第三個部分就違反強制處分相對應刑事處罰的部分你違反強制處分的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10143.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10172.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
本來就有後續他有上面的法律效果嘛所以就現在的這個部分我尊重民主進步黨黨團你們要提修正動議等等的權利我沒意見但我要說的事情是這兩個案子在立法的形式上面我們必須要先處理這件事情處理完了以後再往下走我認為才有意義第二個部分現在中國國民黨黨團的代表也不在了你再下去也不可能有任何解約論嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10173.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10201.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我是基於禮貌因為剛剛昭偉特別請我留下來所以我坐下來我很清楚的把我的意見跟昭偉報告好謝謝那因為現在今天的協商代表欸那個剛剛已經協商代表簽了字了嗎簽了OK那我們就做這個處理啦就沒辦法因為就保留啊這就沒有結論啦協商沒有結論啦好那麼第幾案啊那個是第幾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10202.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10225.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
剛第二案主席我還是想說一下好那請說因為我自己也是司法法制委員會委員在審柯真法通保法的過程我也都在場我真的沒有認知到什麼叫當初都說好了這個我一定要講而且就正常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10227.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10247.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
議事程序既然有他就是兩個法嘛對不對國民黨的召委牌刑訴民進黨的召委牌柯真而事實上不同政黨提的刑訴的內容也都是使用行政院版的柯真法的內容的條文啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10248.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10259.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以我覺得這個主跟副就我自己有很清楚的認知我認為柯真法在行政部門負責任我們委員負責任的詢答主條討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10260.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10288.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那所謂的要併案協商那個也是兩個不同委員審查的不同的案子如果要併也是後面在韓國瑜院長在朝野協商在二讀的時候處理的時候去處置的所以我是覺得很遺憾今天課程法大家打詐這麼關切大家都說希望在7月16號之前會期結束之前趕快能夠來上路回應社會的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10288.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10308.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
所以今天我們民進黨非常負責任的針對上次在逐條討論的過程各黨委員提出《柯真法》如何去強化人權的保障搭配新興的打詐的利器我們方方面面兼顧負責任的提出修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10310.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10326.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那今天國民黨的委員離席然後民眾黨的總召他個人的認知認為今天沒有辦法進行協商我要在這裡說明我覺得時間我們在跟時間賽跑每天都有這麼多的詐騙案件在 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10328.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10334.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
等著我們政府來偵辦所以我一定要表達這個我從來沒有覺得這個兩個法今天沒有辦法在這裡完成協商我覺得非常非常遺憾我要代表民進黨黨團那也希望其他黨團雖然離席了但是民進黨團的負責任的可行的經過審慎評估檢討之後的修正動議也希望各黨團的委員可以帶回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10357.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10376.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
好好的思考研議後續能夠加速協商的審查我再次要表達這樣子的認知錯誤所造成的沒有辦法今天實質協商柯真法的部分我是覺得非常的遺憾也要對社會來致歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10379.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10394.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
好我想那個今天主席在這邊跟委員報告跟與會代表說明因為本來我們是第一案第二案第三案那因為第一案因為是涉及到立法體力有刑事訴訟法有另案有國民黨的召委在進行主持協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10395.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10408.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
科證法的部分雖然有修正動議提出希望能夠爭取委員的認同但是在場因為委員不在所以我們就做如下的一個宣告那麼本日協商第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10411.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10436.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
議題應仍待繼續溝通取得共識所以呢我們就另外那本日協商過程發言內容均已錄音錄影並列入記錄討論過程中有共識之部分將作為後續協商依據應仍有條文內容留待繼續溝通依例不作結論簽名後續依立法院職權行事法第十二章相關規定另定期繼續協商那麼謝謝各位散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10439.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10443.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
兩案處理好了 這是第三個案辛苦了 |