| IVOD_ID |
16049 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16049 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-28 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-28T08:40:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-28T10:07:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:26:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaa6bbc86a65e9b4f8260800011a050fcc627684c85f64cd7b09114c9c778062775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-28T09:10:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商通知（事由：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨團及委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案二、委員何欣純等21人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:40:04 - 10:07:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
2122.847 |
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2150.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好現在開始開會我們各黨團代表及我們行政單位代表大家早今天我們進行黨團協商主題我們內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函送審議台灣民眾黨及我們各委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2152.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2178.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
按以院會經二讀相關提案並協商本院委員何欣純等21人擬具．欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．黨團協商首先我介紹我們在場的委員及行政機關的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2181.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2204.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
牛行廷委員、習以珍委員、莊瑞雄委員行政機關代表、內政部長游世芳、世衛發展部政務處長林益靜 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2210.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2228.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
法務部常務次長黃謀信為節省協商寶貴時間其類席官員請參照遷到部出席的名單本席就不一一介紹了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2231.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2246.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
有關本日協商會議本是具體建議因本案內政委員會併案審查時除保留條文外以委員對審查會通過之條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2250.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2277.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
今已有共識為節省各位黨團代表的寶貴時間我們集中討論焦點為提升法案的協商效力本席建議從審查會保留之條文先行討論如果大家對審查會已通過之條文還有意見我們回頭再繼續討論請各位委員代表有無異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2279.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2304.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沒有,那就按照我們上次的宣告通過,謝謝那我們現在就從保留條文第8條開始好,我們各位委員,那我們就為節省時間,我們就從第8條保留條文我們先來做說明保留條文第8條的修正動議,習宇珍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2305.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2330.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
等第九條還有麥怡貞委員黃珊珊委員王美惠委員以及麥怡貞委員黃珊珊委員在我們的修正動議裡面的第60頁以及61頁那徐怡貞委員是在34頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2335.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2339.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
提案委員何欣純委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2355.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2379.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
主席還有各位官員大家好有關這個第八條的部分就是我主要這個針對這個接下來有一些條文大概都針對NFT所提出來的因為其實我們這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例的制定當然本席認為這部法案是出發點是非常好的但是我們都希望能夠有效的能夠打擊詐騙這個犯罪保障國民的這個財產安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2383.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2405.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
但是因為這一部法案裡面並沒有去規範到NFT的部分那因為NFT是一個新興的產品所以呢從之前一直找不到這個明確的主管機關還有相關的法規那現在行政院已經指定這個金管會作為NFT的這個主管機關那這點是值得肯定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2406.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2429.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
但是因為之前金管會跟事務發部來找我溝通的時候強調說因為這個部分目前世界上的這個好像法律都沒有管到然後歐盟也把NFT沒有當作是虛擬資產那這個部分的話就變成說好像目前因為沒有人可管沒法可管所以說好像我們也很難管的這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2429.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2444.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那好像我會擔心說是不是這個在全世界的這個詐騙集團都會覺得說那我目前這個部分NFT竟然無法可管那可以做一個詐騙的一個工具那所以呢我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2445.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2464.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個部分既然要列管而且要做好詐欺犯罪危害防制的話我覺得應該要把這個這部法律好好的制定那既然是金管會負責我們就希望金管會能夠好好的負起這個責任那之前金管會有給我一個文件是在他們的主管會議的記錄對於這個NFT的管理加了一個但書就強調只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2469.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2481.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
具有金融投資或者是支付性質的NFT才會受到管理而且金管會認為說需要用個案來認定我這邊舉兩個例子第一個針對金融投資就比如說我們請買NFT |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2488.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2497.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
其實你要怎麼界定是不是投資比如說我舉個例子我買了一個蒙娜麗莎微笑的NFT我大概投資了10塊的比特幣但是我預期它會漲到50塊的比特幣那這樣到底算投資還是收藏藝術品如果算投資就受到規範就算要做不法的規範如果沒有算投資那就沒有受到規範那這個要怎麼認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2511.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2531.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第二,我再舉一個例子,比如說支付的性質。我知道在之前選舉的時候,有一位政治人物,候選人,他發行了他自己投向的NFT。那這一種在市場上流動不高的NFT,基本上價值都不會太高,但是假設有人願意花100萬來購買這樣的交易, |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2535.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2558.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那這樣是不是可以視為政治獻金或者我們可以把它稱為具有支付性質的NFT那我要講這樣的意思就是說不管是金融投資或是支付性質因為這種個案來認定的話最後還是由行政部門來裁定這就是法律的這個不確定性那如果是法律的不確定性的話很容易有一些這個會讓這個詐騙集團會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2561.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2588.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
而這樣的規定沒有辦法有效的達到我們要防制詐騙跟洗錢的目的所以反而會讓這個有心的人士會鑽法律的漏洞所以今天我想說可能需要行政部門針對以下的問題做出明確的解釋跟回應第一個就是什麼是具有金融投資和支付薪資的NFT這個定義應該如何的具體化第二個當民眾購買 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2590.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2591.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
二、委員何欣純等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2612.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2637.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好,謝謝,謝謝習以珍的修正同意的提出,現在我們是不是請我們四位發展部我們的林林處長來回應還是金管會來,那我們金管會,我們行政單位金管會金管會有沒有來好,那我們金管會來回應一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2649.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2667.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
是,跟委員報告齁,就是委員剛剛有提到說NFT沒有人管,其實在6月12號的話那個行政院林政委其實有找我們跟速發部這邊共同研析嘛,大概我們之前有拜會許委員的時候有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2667.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2687.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那針對說NFT如果屬於這個金融投資跟支付的性質的話在我們這個虛擬資產這個管理裡面已經納進來了那另外其他的不是屬於金融支付金融投資或支付的這個部分因為他的樣態可能到時候書發部會再來關注他的一個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2687.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2712.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那至於剛剛委員所提到的說您所舉的那兩個例子因為其實國際上也是以大量還有是不是屬於同質性這樣子的個案來判斷它是不是屬於這種金融投資那如果說我們在這個法通過以後我們也是認定是用這樣的原則來認定就是說它如果是個案來認定是不是屬於這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2714.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2737.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
大量而且同質性的這種金融商品的話那當然我們在我們的規範上面我們就會來納管以上主席不好意思好像剛剛沒有回答我的問題就是說針對這部分我主要是問說針對投資跟支付的性質你們有沒有具體的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2746.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2748.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
國際上對於NFT |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2761.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2778.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在這個防制期限方面的規範其實是一致的他是在FATF就是國際反檢所致的這個虛擬資產的評鑑指引的第53段那我們在行政院這次開會6月12號那個決議其實完全是依照這個FATF的標準來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2779.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2797.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那至於說NFT它這個如果說應該它的意思是說如果說它名為NFT但是事實上它實際上發行的量很大而且它是同質性那這樣的話就會變成其實它就跟一般我們的這個比特幣這些是一樣的那這個當然就會有我們那個今晚這邊的納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2799.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2815.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那我們是建議就是說我們在納管這一塊的部分還是應該是follow那個國際組織的這個規範會比較就在國際上我們會是一致的那這對我們以後在國際反起點的評鑑的時候那也會有一個一致的標準以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2822.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2841.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
謝謝主席我覺得今天感覺上好像因為這個剛講到6月12的這個政務會議有提到那其實我們這個法案是在之前審嘛所以就知道在之前確實都沒有主管機關那現在既然行政院已經指定是經管會擔任主管機關不過感覺今天好像經管會也沒有很重視齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2842.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2867.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
您看我們內政部長都親自來,但金管會今天派的代表好像沒有辦法真正來去回應這樣的問題。所以我還是希望說,能夠把這樣子的一個不然投資支付的具體的要怎麼來去規範,能夠提出來的話,我們才能夠在這個條文把它規範得比較完整。要不然的話,現在講這樣子的話,我覺得等於剛剛回答等於沒有回答。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2870.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2871.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2897.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2897.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2917.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2928.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第11條的修正動議有黃潔委員在第21月,徐宇貞委員在第36月,那我們先討論第11條 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2939.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2940.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
委員何欣純等21人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2964.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2965.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
三條也是針對NFT的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2994.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3012.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人擬具︰ |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3017.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3035.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好,謝謝主席,這一條當初說的就是那個黑美卡的這個防制措施啦那因為我們當初提的想法是因為有些國外提供的這種跨國賣油服務嘛他其實在購買這樣相關的SIM卡的時候是沒有任何實名制的機制的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3035.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3047.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那也就是變成詐騙集團去利用的這樣子的一個破口那我們覺得問題很嚴重所以當初提修正動議的概念就是說要變成因為他們都要跟我我國的這個電信業者做借接嘛才能夠去使用服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3048.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3070.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以它變成一個臨櫃登記的一個程序就強迫等於在強迫在我國境內完成實名制的這個登錄手續啦當初大概行政院端是覺得說這東西怕知識體大衝擊太大所以行政院的版本是說做護照號碼的登錄啦做護照號碼的登錄那後來我們這個行政院這邊NCE這邊有來辦公室做協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3071.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3093.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那協商最後的結果是我還是希望實名制的精神可以保存所以既然說電信中間有辦法透過輸入護照號碼的方式來處理那我就要求就是輸入護照號碼加上護照持有人的姓名用這樣子的方式雙重把關這樣也可以避免大家只是單純去取得一組護照號碼就可以冒名使用這件事情有號碼有名字可以交叉比對 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3093.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3094.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
法條修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3113.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3130.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個修正完的版本那另外一個部分是我們有講嘛是這個當初要輸入護照號碼是為了要查詢他是在他是有沒有出境嘛但我覺得除了出境是否出境之外還有預期停留跟拘留這樣一個事情那這這個後面這件事情在當天委員會審查的時候就已經達成共識了 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3131.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3158.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以我唸一下最新的修正條文的版本如果大家同意我們就按照這個修正條文來處理就我們要把它改成電信事業提供境外高風險電信事業提供之全部或一部國際漫遊服務前於技術可行下應依前項第一項資料庫認證電信使用人之護照號碼及姓名就我們直接把它入法啦讓登記什麼直接很清楚經查證使用電信人如 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3159.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3188.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
無入境資料者不得提供國際漫遊服務但經使用電信人向電信事業臨櫃提示身份證明文件供核對及登錄後得提供國際漫遊服務電信事業應提供前項電信服務後應借接第一項資料庫並定期查詢該使用電信人是否出境或預期停留或拘留電信事業提供第一項電信服務後發現使用電信人有資料不實異常使用行為或依前項查詢以出境或預期停留 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3189.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3214.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
或拘留時應限制或停止提供該項電信服務後面都跟行政院版本一樣那另外我們在中間溝通的過程中這個也有人提醒就是說因為你講的所謂叫於技術可行可能會形成另外的漏洞但是如果我們一直在談論這些細節的話很有可能這法條到最後都不會有結果所以我希望除了修正條文照我們的版本通過之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3216.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3241.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我希望再做一個附帶決議啦看在黨團協商的這個機制來做附帶決議可以也就是一年之後我們要針對這一條的執行成效提出完整的報告到底這個機制有沒有辦法有效防範黑媒卡我們在一段時間之後法條上路的一年之後我們要有足夠的數據資料來做檢討如果他有必要再修正再加嚴的時候大家也有憑有據所以我今天來這邊協商大概這兩個要求是否有當我們就大家討論一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3243.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3243.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
蕭政東議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3269.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3273.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那第二十條就照牛刑庭委員的修正動議通過有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3297.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3302.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
二十條就照牛刑庭委員的修正動議通過二十條就照牛刑庭委員的修正動議通過我們現在討論第44條 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3328.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3334.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
來44條修正動議有麥一貞委員、習以貞委員、劉行廷委員提出的修正動議行廷要說明還是以貞要說明來劉行廷委員是第58頁、習以貞委員是第51頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3356.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3359.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們有提這個法條的內容有點拗口,但概念是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3371.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3392.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
本來的條文是說在中華民國領域之外以供詐欺犯罪所用之設備對於中華民國領域之內的犯罪也就是說是在境外提供設備啦但我們就想說既然都有這樣的法條就是不只是境外提供設備境外直接詐欺犯罪也應該要納入懲罰嘛所以我們的法條是在中華民國領域外 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3392.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3411.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
或以在中華民國領域外提供詐欺犯罪所用設備對中華民國領域內的犯罪加重期刑概念上是這樣也就是說在境外你不管是本人設詐或者是提供相關的工具都要加重期刑這是我們44條我們修正版本的精神我想這樣應該會比較完備以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3413.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3417.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
本來行政院版本是在中華民國領域外以供詐欺犯罪設備對中華民國領域內的販資 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3437 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3458.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
換句話說,那個無論是人、共犯在國外,或者設備在國外,本來就在我們行政院版本含澀的範圍之內啦。所以劉偉寧提的,其實事實上在原來條文就已經含澀在我們原來的條文範圍之內了。他是在……我們44條的第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3461.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3490.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
無論是人在國外或者設備在國外他只要有一樣東西在國外對國內進行犯罪就構成加重的要件了確定喔?對沒錯沒錯有嗎?有問題喔好我們法務部處長所提出聲明好我們牛心亭委員、習一貞委員好來謝謝習一貞主席我那個只是調次的所以主要是牛心亭委員的這個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3493.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3494.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3516.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3544.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
是不是做一下說明我剛才跟委員報告我們條文是在中華民國領域外以供設備對國內進行販資所以只要是人或設備在國外都包括他如果在境外但是他沒有使用設備因為你講法條內容是講說以供詐欺犯罪所用之設備他如果沒有用設備就他是個人或是用其他的形態 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3545.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3573.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
口頭或什麼樣的方式詐騙口頭應該不太可能啦因為一個在國內一個在國內沒有提供設備的狀況之下對那在國外沒有進行沒有用設備進行電詐這不可想像啊就是說不可想像說在國外沒有用設備反而對國內進行詐欺所以基本上你們在法條詮釋的時候只要在國外對國內就一定會有設備的問題就對了對對對那國外他基本上他國外又有機房嘛對國內進行詐騙無法想像就是說在國外人在國外卻沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3574.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3574.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
設備進行對國內進行詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3578.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3603.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我們正是在處罰這個境外的機房對境外的機房對國內進行詐騙那如果是這樣那我就不堅持啦但是我是覺得要稍微清楚一點那也請法務部回去思考一下有沒有一些特殊的形態比如說教唆或什麼樣的方式我覺得其實反正大家都支持這種做詐騙的事情要罰得越重越好所以也請法務部做一下思考啦目前這樣我們為了不耽誤法條的進度我們就不堅持了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3606.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3617.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
好 謝謝我們劉欣庭委員那針對我們法務部的聲明我們還是照行政院版通過好不好好好來來好44條好美華33委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3620.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3640.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
謝謝主席我想我們的台灣民眾黨的版本主要是針對44條上次的43條他們講的是金額那現在44條講的是集體那集體的概念那我們是認為說只有三人以上不等於有組織犯罪所以我們希望還是能夠納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3643.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3667.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
三九之四第一項各款並犯組織犯罪的這個部分能夠加進來因為第一項只有三人以上但是要到組織犯罪的話其實並沒有特別再加重我們的版本是希望在已經到組織犯罪的程度的部分另外再加一個加重的條款所以這個是這個版本的第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3669.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3694.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
第二、第三項、第四項這兩條我們希望能夠加上去好 謝謝 謝謝我們黃珊珊委員那是不是請我們法務部來做說明跟主席及法務委員報告事實上法務部的行政院版本事實上它是比較客觀上操作上可行你只要客觀上它的共犯達到3人以上就把它加重那如果按照這個就是我們黃委員或民眾黨版本的話它必須要犯組織犯罪條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3696.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3711.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
實際上我們犯罪組織條例在實務上要成立的可能性是相對的困難因為組織犯罪條例有它的構成要件要有集團性、要有牟利性、要有結構性非常複雜的一個構成要件所以事實上反而日後在實務上要去審查它是不是構成組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3712.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3732.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這個反而是困難的。這第一點。第二點呢,如果說這個又把組織把規範成犯罪構成要件的話,是不是會有重複評價的問題?什麼意思叫重複評價呢?就是說我們組織犯罪條例已經在評價這個集團一次了。你現在又在我們家種裡面再把評價一次,就等於這一個行為被評價了兩次。 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3734.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3746.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以說本部的立場是希望就能夠照院版的通過用客觀數字超過共犯3人以上我就把加重未來在事務上是具有可操作性的以上補充謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3751.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3768.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
三人以上是你們第一項第二款用三人以上的方式去犯用三人以上的方式去犯會加重期刑但他如果到組織犯罪的程度有沒有再加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3768.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3793.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
根文報告,他如果犯組織犯罪條例的話,另外我們就用《刑法上想像進合》去做,衝一重處斷,不會把這個想像進合調給吃掉了。他如果這個組織犯罪條例比較重,我們就論那個組織犯罪要不要。所以確認,確認他有組織犯罪的情況下,他就會更重的狀態。對對對對對。反正公報商都有,以後不要變成說中間有漏掉,不會掛一漏萬。對不會不會,他如果一行為同時犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3793.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3798.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
詐欺跟組織犯罪條例用重的想像進合就按照想像進合範圍去處理重重阻斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3799.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3823.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
如果是濟民說他已經是三人以上,然後如果到組織犯罪的程度,他會更加重的情況,那就可以超越這個法條本身的重度。對,他如果另外再構成組織犯罪條例,我們組織犯罪條例的組織發起那是最很重。對,我們主要是要抓那個首謀啦,主要是要抓首謀跟這些粗點子,然後沒有在裡面實際行為的人,這些人要把他揪出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3824.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3827.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
四條就照行政院的提案好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3849.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3877.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
好,那大家還沒有意見沒有意見我們就照行政院版通過謝謝好,現在我們49條49條的修正動議有徐以貞委員、牛行廷委員還有司法院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3881.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3882.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3904.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3923.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
報告主席以及在座的委員先進。司法院提的版本是另列第二項。前項規定行為人如屬少年應依少年事件處理法相關規定辦理。本條是因為我們少事法第81條對於我們的少年假釋的部分有另外特別的要件。 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3924.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3940.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
跟這個詐欺危害防制條例草案的第49條的要件有一些不一樣為求這個法律的解讀的這個是一致性避免矛盾所以建議增列第二項然後另外在立法理由的部分也增列第四點的說明以上補充報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3949.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3951.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3980.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4006.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
現在我們處理第57條57條的修正動議我習以珍委員我們所提出的修正動議請我們習以珍委員來做說明57條也是條次57條也是條次這樣喔好那我們就照行政院提案修正通過好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4010.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4010.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4029.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4054.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
好,那我們回過頭來我們現在是不是我們休息三分鐘好不好我們金管會跟我們習政委員來做說明好不好現在休息三分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4061.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4061.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
主席響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4092.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4094.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4122.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4145.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨及委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、委員何欣純等21人� |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4148.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4174.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4176.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4198.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員會報告併案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4199.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4224.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
二、委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨及委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案．一、本院內政委員何欣純等21人分別擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4228.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4229.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
負責擬負責擬負 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4248.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4275.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
二、委員何欣純等21人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案）事由：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4278.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4278.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
太離譜了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4303.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4304.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4321.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4321.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
主席響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4341.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4344.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
市長有準備這個動議,到時候發生什麼?檢復職昨天在部長班是給的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4360.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4370 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
對 修正動議通過條例是有問題嗎?對 它這個原來的14、15現在我們這次有修正改了是就不行了洗防法 你們看那是用這個單本嗎?對對對華語是在證實 他說我們是司法的啊 他們是內政的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4383.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4384.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4404.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4404.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4425.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4426.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
一、本院內政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4453.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4453.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
投票結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4937.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4938.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
第44條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4950.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4974.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們法務部次長說條文內容有關洗錢防治法之條次有變更因此44條我們就照本席所提出的修正動議通過我們手上大家都有花了吧好大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4975.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4982.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
沒意見我們就照修正條文通過我們繼續處理互代決議互代決議的議案請我們議事人員先讀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4995.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5022.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
本法公布施行後一年相關機關應就第20條規定之時行程效及實務運作情形擬具報告到院必供本院委員評估是否再行修正提案人委員牛許廷等五人宣布完畢謝謝各位委員有沒有意見沒意見我們就照牛許廷委員的修正動議通過現在要補充宣告我們審查通過的不再決定第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5025.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5050.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
現在我們審查通過的附帶結議第二項有關我們後段新台幣一千萬元配合法條的更正為五百萬元一併宣告修正OK嗎?好 謝謝我們到修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5052.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5052.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
先讀協商結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5067.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5093.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
宣讀立法院朝野黨團協商結論時間113年6月18日上午9時15分至10時14分地點紅樓302會議室協商主題併案審查行政院函請審議、台灣民眾黨黨團及委員陳亭妃等16人分別擬具〈詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案〉二、委員何欣純等21人擬具〉詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案協商結論一 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5096.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5118.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
協商通過關五一照行政院提案通過者為第五十七條,照協商條文通過為第二十條、第四十四條、第四十九條如復見。二、保留條文第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條,送院會處理。三、通過互待決議一項。 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5120.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5143.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
通過互代決議兩項,是其遭審查結果通過。五、條文調適引述條文之文字及相關法制用於授權主席及醫生院整理。宣讀完畢。好,各位委員有沒有意見?好,沒意見。好,謝謝。那我們都照我們協商的結論通過。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5152.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5154.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
主席主席 |