| IVOD_ID |
16044 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16044 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
30 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-27T08:30:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-27T12:02:15+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:31:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d53741711f1205b9590a0be61fea14818627684c85f64cd7b2124656389e1f48c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:30 - 12:02:15 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1962.523 |
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1971.624 |
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報告委員會出席委員9人與組法定人數現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1973.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1994.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議．事錄時間中華民國113年6月26日星期三上午9時至12時33分地點紅樓森林一會議室出席委員盧美琳等11人列席委員黃國昌等16人列席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1996.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2011.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
參謀總長梅佳樹國家安全局副局長黃明周﹐法務部法制司調部辦事檢察官謝佑雲﹐主席馬周吉委員文君報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二﹐邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告漢光日10號演習規劃情形並備質詢﹐討論事項審查依本運委員馬文君等21人 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2020.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2037.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
國軍老舊眷村改建條例第3條、第5條及第5條之一條維修正常案案本院委員黃仁等24人本院委員王洪威等25人本院委員戴世保等21人本院委員羅志強等24人分別擬具國軍老舊眷村改建條例第3條條維修正常案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2045.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2061.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
以上6案今提本院第11屆第1會期第3、5、7、10及11次會議報告後均決定交外交及國防委員會審查委員賴世保說明提案子去國防部部長顧立雄參謀總長梅家樹及政治作戰局局長陳玉玲報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2063.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2086.87 |
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委員盧美琳等16人質詢．均由國防部部長顧立雄參謀總長梅家樹﹑法律事務司司長沈世偉﹑情報參謀次長是次長顏友賢﹑空軍司令部參謀長曹建平﹑國家中生科學研究院院長張忠誠及國家安全局副局長黃明昭等即席答覆。決議依登記質詢在場委員均應發言完畢報告及詢討結束。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2088.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2101.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
二委員口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊,請相關機關與二周內已書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會。委員令指定期限者從其所定身,有關討論事項等六案令則舉,繼續審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2109.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2124.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們稍後確認,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告．如何運用國際友我組織力量．協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法．並備質詢。宣讀完畢我們現在請問在場委員．對於上次會議議事錄．有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處我們的議事錄確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2141.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2163.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們現在介紹在場委員首先介紹陳永康陳委員羅美玲羅委員以及我們今天出列席的官員外交部部長林佳龍林部長亞東太平洋司藍夏里藍司長亞西及非洲司賀忠義賀司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2170.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2200.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
歐洲司黃君耀黃司長．北美司王良玉王司長．拉美及加勒比海司鄭麗成鄭司長．條約法律司蘇瑞仁參事．國際組織司孫簡元司長．國際合作及經濟事務司聯育平司長．國際傳播司徐永梅司長． |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2202.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2215.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
研究設計會張雅光主任秘書處洪振榮處長人事處黃麗玲處長主計處李佩華處長資訊及電務處林啟文處長公眾外交協調會蕭光偉副執行長非政府組織國際事務會陳剛毅執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2233.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2235.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
臨時事務局何振環局長臺灣日本關係協會范振國秘書長財團法人國際合作發展基金會李朝成秘書長財團法人臺灣民主基金會代理執行長廖達祺廖執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2259.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2269.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本日會議邀請外交部林佳龍部長報告．如何運用國際友我組織力量．協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法．並備質詢。．現在請林部長上臺報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2284.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2304.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士先生大家早安很榮幸承蒙貴委員會邀請就如何運用國際友我組織力量協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法進行報告詳細內容請參考書面的報告以下請扼要的口頭報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2306.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2324.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
首先我國推動參加聯合國體系所需考慮的因素以及我們目前的訴求希望能夠爭取擴大國際參與是我們國人共同的期待也是跨黨派的共識因此外交部列為重點工作之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2325.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2353.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
除依據國家整體發展與人民福祉所需獲得國際支持的可能性以及我政府推案能量慎選推案目標之外也和友邦及理念相近國家密切協調來研定最妥適的推案策略及做法政府充分了解民意對我國加入聯合國體系的高度期盼但考量上述各項因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2354.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2363.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
自從2016年開始就秉持著專業務實有貢獻的原則積極爭取有意義參與聯合國體系相關的國際組織近年來我推案所獲的國際支持有大幅提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2374.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2397.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
經過過去8年的積極推動臺灣在爭取國際參與方面獲得一些具體的成果包括成功加入13個專業性國際組織及機制在世界衛生大會WHA為我直言的理念相近國家數目也逐年的增加另外除了向七大工業國集團G7外長及衛生 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2401.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2428.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個部長的會議之外今年的領袖峰會也在會後聯合公報中首度明確表達對台灣有意義參與國際組織的支持這些正面發展都證明政府的推案訴求和策略正確那麼當然我國也面臨了無法參與聯合國體系的一些重大的障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2429.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2431.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那當然首先中國透過錯誤詮釋聯大第2758號決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2436.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2459.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
並稱該決議等同其一中原則意圖謀殺台灣參與聯合國體系等國際組織的正當性是台灣迄今無法參與的最主要障礙此外中國以各種方式在聯合國體系內發揮不當的影響力而聯合國秘書處違反聯合國憲章第100條屈服及附和中國的謬論 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2461.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2490.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
貶抑我國主權國家的地位甚至拒絕我國人持我國護照換證進入聯合國參訪或開會也不同意核發採訪證給予我國的記者另外中國也濫權施壓其他的國際組織使該等組織即使同情我國的處境並認同我國的訴求也無法以具體的方式來協助我們然而在我政府及民間共同積極的努力之下仍有 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2491.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2495.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
世界醫師會、西班牙醫師會、無國界記者組織、國際記者聯盟及亞太國會議員聯合會等國際組織為我發出正義之聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2504.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2525.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那未來的推動做法我國目前以會員或其他身份參與了74個政府間國際組織相關政府部門透過專業參與以向國際社會展現台灣的專業能量以及我國系國際社會良善力量的事實並累積相當友好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2526.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2540.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有我的人脈跟國際認同與支持政府將在多年建構的良好基礎之下持續努力繼續擴大國際友我力量處請以更積極的具體方式助我針對中國惡意錯誤詮釋聯大第2758號決議美國已公開發表4點反駁立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2546.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2558.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
而我政府將與美國及其他理念相近國家更緊密地協調合作來導正國際視聽反制中共荒謬無理的論點以強化台灣爭取參與聯合國體系等國際組織的正當性 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2562.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2590.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
最後政府深切的瞭解國內民意對政府推動國際參與的殷切期盼而面對中國的蠻橫阻撓我們必須省慎衡量國際情勢嚴定妥適的推案策略經過多年的努力已經獲至相當的進展政府對各種可能選項均抱持開放態度將適時檢視調整以妥善維護國家利益及人民福祉也希望各位委員能夠繼續給予 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2592.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2593.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
支持及鼓勵。謝謝現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2624.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2624.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
林佳龍報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2636.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2640.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
國際刑警組織在6月25號經由執行委員會的投票選出了巴西的候選人伍吉莎成為新一任的秘書長而且伍吉莎是以壓倒性的票數完勝英國跟上比亞的候選人 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2658.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2685.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這也是該組織有史以來第一位來自開發中國家的秘書長那武吉山他會在今年的11月就會正式上任然後現任的秘書長也是來自德國的Stone他即將結束10年的這個任期其實台灣這麼多年以來一直都在積極地爭取觀察員的這個身份可是在2022年的時候現任的秘書長Stone他就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2687.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2708.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
他表示國際情景組織只承認中華人民共和國是中國唯一的代表他還說臺灣是中國的一部分所以沒有辦法給予臺灣觀察員的身份那時候我們外交部又表達了遺憾跟不滿我們新任的秘書長即將上任了來自巴西的秘書長他在11月即將上任臺灣迅速還會繼續爭取我們觀察員的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2717.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2740.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
部長您認為我們有機會嗎?其實最近國際情勢的發展大家也在檢討2758號決議它的內容那美國也很明確的表達包括其實2758號決議並沒有去背書或等同或者是反映這一個所謂的一中原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2742.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2750.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
而這個世界各國跟臺灣進行這個交往其實也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2752.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2774.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
就是它的一個主權再來對台灣的參與國際組織這個也沒有因為這個決議而有所限制所以這些都像是我想中共在法律法律戰然後需要落實到聯合國跟周邊的組織這件事情也引起了一些反應所以這個也是我們的一個機會之窗 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2775.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2804.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以有威脅也有機會 那我們就要更努力來從理念相近的國家一起來推動所以我們還是會積極爭取這個interpol的這個觀察員的這個身份嘛可是呢就像這些聲明大家都理解可是似乎中國也不會理會這些聲明嘛對不對而且像國際刑警組織裡面他的這個執行委員會的這個重要成員之一就是包含了這個中國所以您覺得我們真的有機會加入嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2805.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2808.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我一定是使盡所有的辦法來干擾嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2810.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2839.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
當然要累積能量其實不斷地去推動尤其是我們公共訊息的溝通更多人了解的時候就發現說原來中共所扭曲的2758決議並沒有涉及所謂一中原則也沒有排除台灣的國際組織的參與也沒有限制他們跟台灣建立外交關係所以這個都需要去宣傳這個也是當前在做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2839.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2849.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
至於說不斷的去這個我們透過各種方式去參與這個有意義的參與的方式也非常多種這個也是我們要努力的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2850.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2868.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
OK 好 謝謝外交部還是要積極來努力加入這些國際組織那目前國際刑警組織它有196國那包含了一些極權國家而且在資軍委員會裡面其實也有含了一些極權國家在裡面所以我們可能還有很長的路要走本席是這麼認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2870.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2886.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那過去呢其實國際刑警組織有一些讓國際人權組織覺得有非議的地方就是有一些極權國家比如說中國、俄羅斯他們是透過這個國際刑警組織的紅色通緝令呢來棄拿這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2889.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2905.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以我們不曉得新任的秘書長能不能就是保持中立像過去雖然說德國的這個Stopp他是拒絕了台灣的這個申請像光產源身份他覺得他只承認One China Policy |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2906.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2908.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
OK可是問題是在他主政的10年當中他認為說這些紅色追緝令必須還是要經過審查可是我們不曉得新任的秘書長他會怎麼來處理這件事情因為像過去的話像中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2921.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2941.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
中國曾經透過紅色通緝令向世界維吾爾大會主席多里昆·艾莎被中國視為恐怖分子向世界刑警組織申請拘捕令甚至維權人士艾伊也曾經在摩納哥被拘留 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2946.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2951.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
到後來被遣返回中國本席會講這點是因為在6月21號的時候中國頒布了懲治台獨的規定公佈了懲治台獨分裂國家、煽動分裂國家等22條規定若違反分裂國家犯罪最終可以處死刑最速期是20年 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2973.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3000.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
他認為的這些分裂國家犯罪就是他所稱的臺獨頑固分子那臺灣有很多的政治人物比如說我們的前行政院長蘇貞昌也被點名吳釗燮我們的前部長也被點名甚至有一些媒體人也被點名我們所擔心的就是說這些他現在認為說這些所謂的他名單當中的臺獨頑固分子他們其實就是觸犯了分裂國家犯罪那如果這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3001.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3001.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
確實要很 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3025.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3051.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
聖宗的來去因應所謂的是不是中國可能透過所謂紅色通報透過國際情形組織來行行跨境的鎮壓這一點當然我們也有這個訓練外管我們怎麼樣去做預防跟因應但是因為紅色通報也不是逮捕令它主要還是要涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3052.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3078.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
當地國本國的法律這就涉及到所謂的司法互助跟淺送相關的規定條約這個部分因為有一些國家跟中共有簽有建交的公報或者條約裡面有涉及一中原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3078.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3100.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那這會不會去掛鉤但是呢當然怎麼樣去跟當地國做溝通那以及我們提醒國人要注意外管要協助針對這些事情有非常多的樣態比如您剛剛提到的像有關於新疆維吾爾族有一些人權人士被中國他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3102.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3108.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
因為過去曾經是有過被濫用、劣跡斑斑的事情發生,那台灣不得不注意,剛剛部長你所講的,我們必須要預防,我們必須要跟國人來告知這個危險性,可是我到目前為止外交部好像比你們還沒有做這些動作對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3129.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3157.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
像我們就政府就發布陳設警戒對於這個旅遊那同樣有一些國家我們也做過統計那這些國家我們已經會就是訓練外管特別要注意就是有涉及到他們建交簽訂有一中原則又加上這個司法互助跟所謂的這個遣送相關的這個條約這個就是第一級我們特別要注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3158.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3158.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我們會加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3192.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3217.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢主席好 有請外交部部長請部長部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3224.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3253.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
部長您好委員長聽取您的早上的重點報告以及我先前看過您的這個分析事項有關於如何運用友我的國際組織協助我們參加國際更多的活動甚至有些國際聯合國的外圍組織希望能夠加入成為觀察員這個我們在方法上在議論的著眼上我們是完全支持部裡面當我也用一些不同的角度來做分析提出一些建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3256.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3272.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們的現況是由政府籌設籌劃與資助．或者半方組織民間團體共同努力．但是因為做法不同調．成果的累積有些不容易．我們現在提出了一個國家安全戰略為基礎．積極來指導參與國際組織的方法論．是以國際的聲援為本．它的實質支持為實． |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3279.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3307.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
因為要有國家安全戰略所以我們的資源分配才適宜協商順暢施政同步法治周全策略疫情政策可以連續性我們的重點是宣揚臺灣的公益意願精準發揮臺灣的優勢能力我們政府要凝聚共識與資源的相助融合社會與民間來共同的努力現在看到您的那幾篇報告裡面有一個狀況一狀況二我們提出的建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3309.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3332.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
強調建議二就是現在臺大已經宣布創立NGO的人才學校我們建議這個外交部或者是外交人員這個研究的這個學院跟臺大才合作我們可以採取多點的培養NGO的人才而不是光僅設限於我們自己部內人才我們希望能夠幫外力部外交部建立一個強大的團隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3335.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3358.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
如何運用國際友人．有我的組織力量．協助加入聯合國相關組織現在一個最重要的是今年11月的COP29聯合國氣候變遷大會聚焦在2025年的全球氣候融資的目標我們根據美國海洋大氣從屬NOAA的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3359.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3379.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
如果現在失去控制在2100本世紀前海平面會上升3.5到7英尺也就是平均是兩公尺甚至更深這個時候影響到不只是美國的邁阿密New Orleans東京大阪甚至倫敦香港 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3380.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3407.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
臺北、高雄的問題非常嚴肅但是在氣候變遷的控制上美國跟中國大陸在這個上面採取合作的態度我們雖然不是聯合國的成員但是在抗暖化、氣候融資的目標議題上我們應該表達我們積極的態度跟合作的立場尤其是在南太平洋這些島國、貧窮國家因為海洋上升這些國家就被淹掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3409.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3424.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
不只是與我們友好的富裕國家要融入一個共同融資合作的機會在控制零排放的同時也照顧到南太平洋的友邦國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3426.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3452.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那現在產生的一個面對的挑戰這是美國的內政問題但是會影響到我們就是川普他強調石化燃料在美國內政政策的重要性他認為減低美國能源對外依賴是重要的所以川普的能源革命跟拜登的2050年的近鄰談放這兩個是完全相反的所以在11月5號的結果出來我們必須面對如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3454.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3480.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
針對下一個美國總統在這個國際這個怎麼講氣候變遷組織有不同的想法上我們要有一個調節的空間論述的方法論那這張圖像各位看這是前天我在美國NOAA的圖上就是6月25號的海平面上的氣溫都已經到了25到30度那這個結果如果預測 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3481.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3483.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
新北市 台北港 淡水河 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3502.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3529.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
可以看到在新北市的蘆洲甚至我們的淡水河進去的我們的科學園區通通都被水淹了這個不只是我們面對的挑戰事實上對國外的國家友我好的國家我們可以形成一個共同的論述另外有關國際組織剛才在您的報告裡面您提到了我們希望有人的合作協助參加IKEA我建議再增加兩個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3531.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3552.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
一個除了ICAO以外還有IMO國際海事組織那麼另外一個就是IHO這兩個都是有關海上海運的因為中共最近在台海周遭實施灰色地帶的這種演習這個不動武的威懾消耗戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3554.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3576.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
如果我們的民航組織發現它干擾了民航機的航線或是干擾了海上民航航運的航線這個都可以透過我們的友好友我的組織向這幾個單位表達我們的關切以希望喚起這個國際組織對維護台海周遭以及國際和平的一個重視以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3579.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3585.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
非常謝謝委員寶貴的意見,我們會把它特別納入,特別是IMO相關的國際組織,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝陳委員。接下來請黃仁委員上台諮詢。謝謝主席,有請部長。請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3616.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3632.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我們就叫我們賴清德總統的新兩國論在賴總統就此演說就提到中華民國與中華人民共和國是負不隸屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3634.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3654.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那並對入境官校百年孝慶時再次的重申堅持中華民國和中華人民共和國這個互不隸屬請問一下部長你認同我們賴總統的說法嗎認同好所以部長同意這些兩國論那我們今天就談到 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3656.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3683.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
賴總統的論述是在偷換概念為什麼?刻意把自前和主前混淆自前和主前混淆讓台獨可以借中華民國的殼上市借殼上市所以本席同意兩岸當然是互不隸屬但是在此自前方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3685.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3714.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
本席在特別強調在法理上依據中華民國憲法中華民國才有主權的代表性所謂中華人民共和國是不具有主權的所以外交部代表中華民國處理對外事務因此本席相信我們的所有外交人員都很清楚在外交代表就是中華民國主權那這個法理上是很明顯的賴政府在國會改革法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3715.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3731.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
口口聲聲說要依據憲法但在國家主權上反而一點都不尊重中華民國的憲法根本是把憲法當玩物部長你認同我的想法還是你還有別的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3735.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3759.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
因為主權跟治權這種劃分是我們比較台灣教科書上這樣寫事實上主權在民這個是民主最重要的一個精神所以台灣人民選出我們的政府包括總統跟國會怎麼樣來確保我們國民主權這個就是最根本 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3760.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3786.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那至於說涉及到的所謂互不隸屬是不是因為主權自權的差異有這些理論有點複雜那我覺得回到還是最根本的所以今天部長今天我講兩國論的思維裡面我們就按照我們賴總統在把自權和主權的混淆也沒關係本席在按照賴總統的思路請問部長既然是兩國 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3788.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3813.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
部長是不是應該建議賴總統把大陸委員會裁掉並將陸委會併入到外交部設立外交部中國時我想外交部就代表我們國家主權因為兩岸關係很特殊所以我們有設立這個大陸事務委員會來處理因為最主要是我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3814.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3829.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
某種程度是承認他啦因為在台灣民主化之後啊其實我們對我講這個好不好但是他沒有承認我們今天我們要分析一下這個很簡單外交部是主要負責的是什麼國與國的之間的對外事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3830.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3847.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
入委會負責的是中華民國臺灣地區與大陸地區的內部事務既然部長認同賴總統的兩國論那就應該有所作為把大陸委員會併入到你們外交部的中國司有沒有必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3848.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3874.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
因為這涉及現改可能要朝野來協調然後溝通甚至對話應該朝野協調啦我們今天我提出這個案子這涉及到現改層次就是應該現在來講我們應該要朝這個方向來討論要不然的話今天兩國之間的僵硬到現在沒有一個談判的空間所以你說大陸 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3875.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3890.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
事務委員會有沒有必要性要避入到你們外交部因為外交部是你們負責國與國之間的關係嘛對不對那所以這個是這個給你一個方向思維不過我跟委員講因為我們承認他他不承認我們啊你這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3891.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3914.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
他如果願意跟外交部交往我也是很願意啊可是他不願意跟我交往啊我們永遠承認兩岸之間的關係但是是台灣不承認對岸之間的關係我們只有承認美國跟日本的關係而已嘛所以這個就是一個思維的因素我們本地同根深我們跟對岸之間本來就有這一層的關係為什麼一直不承認所以這個就是我要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3915.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3930.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
要講出的論述因為這個論述裡面我是以台灣原住民的身份來去看待兩岸之間不是要用你們的角度裡面去看待兩岸之間所以這個就是我要告訴給部長的好不好所以這個我另外插個話 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3932.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3954.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我上次有特別提到就是你第一次執行背景的時候我特別提到原住民在南島語系的民主裡面我希望未來推派無認所原住民的代表還是有認所的原住民代表希望沒有任何的政黨而且有學術理論而且是正當性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3955.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3979.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
對外交未來對原住民事務有推動有幫助與國家邦交的前提沒有任何的政黨為代表性可不可以可以我一定來尋才也請委員可以推薦我們一起來找出最能夠讓原住民外交發揮因為台灣確實有這樣的條件可以做包括海島或南島語系 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3988.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4001.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這一點我絕對相信你有這個能力一直以來到現在你從外交部從新聞局到市長到現在總統府的秘書長我絕對相信你在整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4001.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4020.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
不分族群的情況之下找出一個能人找出一個人才為國家來奉獻而不是以政黨的角度來看待派任今天不要說你們的內閣是一個外星人內閣連圓明會主委到現在一問三不知 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4022.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4023.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
一大雷遭到爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4042.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4070.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
報料挪用公款這樣的一個國際事件也造成我們外交部的形象已經有所衝突而且如何提振外交部的形象今天雷大雷大使所陳述的問題他是不是要自我援說你們要找出一個原因如果我們誣賴他還他清白如果是他挪用公款你們絕對跟國人有交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4071.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4088.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為這是你們外交部的形象要樹立起來不要讓我們外交部說我們是派出的所有浪費公帑部長你回答目前是沒有挪用公款但是因為採購的程序有些項目有核可有些沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4089.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4089.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
馬文君委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4120.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4121.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
主席 麻煩請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4134.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4151.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
部長早部長我想請教一下今天因為我們幾個議題那我想首先請教民主基金會在您看來重不重要然後他在他成立以後他的成效如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4152.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4175.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
民主基金會很重要自成立以來發揮很好的惡鬼外交的效果而且跨黨派的參與跟國際的這個交流合作成果豐碩特別我們代理執行長我才聽了他完整的簡報我覺得立法院支持的預算能夠發揮這麼大的效果非常的感謝我們要繼續努力那有一些民主基金會的業務我待會請執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4177.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4202.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
業務我們很清楚我現在只想知道的是民主基金會因為每年在編預算的時候大概就會做一些初步的報告那我們現在比較希望知道既然部長覺得他很重要然後也做得很好然後他的在業務上的推動其實是要持續的那我想請教一下在我們基金會董事會推舉執行長的議程當中部長提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4207.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4230.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
執行長的任用、聘用他被擱置的原因是什麼?因為在第8屆第一次董事會產生了董事長跟副董事長之間董事長他請假因為主持立法院的會議由我代理那因為他推薦的人他也沒有在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4231.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4245.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
大家的董事們很想了解董事長提名的人所以我就經過大家討論也經過了表決就是擱置由下次會來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4247.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4252.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
很多人在說卡爐卡爐用我獨是誰,他們都想著另外的人部長,行政院在提,或者包括總統提名很多人選讓立法院要去投票的時候他們也是一樣,我們都會從很多的資料上面,尤其不可能我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4269.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4294.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
成員這些董監事沒有去看過他的背景資料如果不知道的話在這裡我簡單再說一下因為之前黃玉琳執行長就如果你們對於之前執行的業務狀況非常肯定的話他是一個土木工程的背景過去也曾經在台中市政府交通部服務過可是他在基金會的時候也是受到肯定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4296.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4303.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那現在盧業忠本身如果他做的是他本身就是國際關係的專業又是外交各方面這一方面的一個專業那他來擔任這樣的職務有什麼樣的問題嗎因為如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4314.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4318.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這空窗期讓我們覺得他是變成政黨的惡鬥這樣是很不好的因為如果要預算可以通過從過去到現在成立經過了國民黨經過了民進黨執政其實都沒有人去干涉過多都希望他的惡鬼外交其實是可以順利的推動如果讓我們有這樣的感受我們希望可以重新來檢視很多的預算的運用比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4344.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4355.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
過去馬政府時期我們的外交預算當時有22個國家我們的預算224億27億這個沒有包括機密預算可是當時的機密預算並不高都是5億左右到蔡政府2024年我們的預算高達314億這個還不包含機密外交的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4372.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4394.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我們只剩下12個國家可我們的預算越編越高然後一直跟國人說我們做得非常好可我們邦交國失去了我們WHA連觀察員的身份過去有8年都可以參與現在都沒有辦法那我們所有的國際組織沒有一個可以參加的像今天的報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4395.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4401.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
其實也差不多是投降了啦就是我們要用更務實的方式你說有人幫我們講話過去我們還實質參加我們編的預算還更少為什麼我特別提到預算的部分是因為我們也很清楚的知道我們的外交工作並不是那麼容易所以在經費預算上面其實大概也都是盡量的給予支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4420.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4421.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
是,實質的對人選每個人都見仁見智,優秀的人才阿魯 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4439.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4442.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
過去董事長有沒有都親自去介紹去說明去講比如說黃玉玲被提名的時候我們的董事長有沒有去那裡說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4462.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4467.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
因為那個時候 董事長應該提名應該都會跟董事會說明他是虎目工程的背景是董事長親自去說明嗎?去介紹嗎?董事長是嗎?我的判斷是啦因為其實黃毅林執行長當過海基會主任秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4481.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4485.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
行政經驗豐富不代表他的外交經驗豐富今天如果有一個背景不錯沒有什麼特別瑕疵的人如果讓我們的感受你就是卡這樣子對我們未來在外交業務上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4500.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4504.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
沒有很好的一個幫助我今天特別再提出來老實說我們也是希望你在外交工作如果你沒有辦法交出好成績沒有辦法做得很好還拼命的花人民的納稅錢還要在這裡搞東搞西那我們未來希望可以用更嚴格的來檢視我們的外交工作包括你現在這麼重要的一個駐美的一個代表都發生這樣的問題我們不知道他的實際情況是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4530.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4549.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
可是我們現在發現兩個點第一他是一個資深的外交官他也當過政務次長沒有理由他不知道這些細節可是兩個理由第一個就是有人要搶位子這個就做得很難看第二個就是他過去的漏歸持續沿用因為覺得沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4555.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4575.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
可是最要讓我們覺得應該要檢視的是我們的外交部的發言人他是用恐嚇的方式說我們應該在內部來做舉發就好就是因為內部關關相護啊所以他才會爆出來這是兩種不同的模式一個是陰謀論第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4577.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4595.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
就是吹哨者可是我們對於吹哨者是用這樣的態度所以外交部不斷的發生事情如果我們要用政治的態度來看待我們所有的外交的業務包括像這樣的一個基金會我們未來會更慎重的會更嚴謹的來檢視不可以讓你們一直浪費我們的民脂民膏包括我們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4603.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4631.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
希望很多國家來幫我們講話我們送出了什麼我們的護國神山台積電他很重要的很多的設廠其實政府在後面發揮了很大的影響力這些債債都顯示我們一直在犧牲我們的利益在浪費我們的金錢可是我們沒有得到實質的一些幫助像巴基斯坦 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4633.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4658.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
他們這一次要加入聯合國的時候他們的情況巴勒斯坦不好意思巴勒斯坦這一次今年4月份要加入聯合國的時候在聯合國安理會他超過9票有12票的同意的情況之下仍然不能成案很重要的因素就是美國投下了反對票那我想請教我們目前中華民國是不是也面臨這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4662.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4666.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
委員長,我現在說的是巴勒斯坦也受到美國的反對,今天為什麼美國反對? |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4684.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4689.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這裏面所有大部分的安理會的成員國或者包括聯合國大會有143個國家其實是同意的而且是非常支持巴勒斯坦可是他們還是遭到否決今天我們中華民國會面臨我們一直在講中共阻撓中共阻撓所有任何國家都有他自身的考量所以我們應該要怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4707.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4733.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
以致的對外在外交的拓展上面大家可以共同的去發揮我們的影響力而不是對內這是我今天特別要講的這個部長你有什麼看法因為接下來我們還有很多在外交的推動或業務上面都會持續朝野要合作那我很期待知道部長到底怎麼想的那剛剛我說的民主基金會怎麼樣去解決這樣的問題因為他如果執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4735.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4758.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
一產生他就可以馬上執行這兩個部分部長簡單的回答好不好其實那天第8屆第一次會就有推舉韓院長做董事長所以外界先前有一些猜測其實並沒有去卡誰那至於說執行長因為要董事長提名是要董事會同意那董事會有同意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4759.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4774.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這個我們也尊重董事會當天的決定這個還沒有進入實質啦我是覺得就是要去溝通嘛讓董事們能夠支持董事長提的人選就像說如果我們行政部門提了這個人選 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4775.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4789.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
來立法院也是要經過立法院大家有一個程序你不能提的人也沒到被提的人也沒到董事會大家覺得說我想了解更多也許要更大的支持但是沒有辦法對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4791.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4792.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
部長會不會協助?因為之前你也推薦過執行長嘛,那就這個部分以你看到現在推薦的這樣一個人選 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4814.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4824.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
會不會認為他有什麼樣的瑕疵或者他不適任或者他有什麼問題我尊重董事會的決定我也希望那個程序能夠很順的來進行我請教的是部長的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4825.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4849.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
您的看法對這一個人選你總是有看法吧其實專業在我們政治學界都有一定的肯定但是就是說他的外交政策的方向是不是跟賴總統方向一致這個也許董事會有一些包括委員也有在詢問如果是這樣那有很多的預算你根本就不能過 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4850.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4856.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
如果您要用這樣的看法因為現在在中華民國裡面我們是一個民主自由的國家您在這裡可以說台獨您在這裡也可以說創意如果叫我們的憲法來規定您現在憲法來規定到底是什麼這是大家都可以在這一塊土地上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4869.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4874.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
唱所欲言而不是誰可以影響人家應該怎麼想應該怎麼做你應該只可以講什麼樣的話如果這樣對我們的外交一點幫助都沒有我再次提醒如果這樣做對我們的外交一點幫助都沒有如果你從小地方要這樣卡那未來在我們很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4888.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4907.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
尤其是我們現在執政方執政黨如果在這樣子有很多一直都沒有能力去拓展我們的外交然後一直花錢在未來就會不好做了部長同意嗎我就把程序做好多溝通那人選我想提名有他的道理但是董事會有他的職權那這個董事會部長你會推薦嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4913.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4914.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
謝謝馬委員下面我們請沈波洋委員來質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4954.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4954.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4968.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4986.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
委員長今天最主要是要問這個跟加入聯合國等等國際組織的一些問題那等一下也再問一下後面的一些相關的這個剛剛前面我以前關心的事項那一開始呢這個因為昨天剛好在審這個也是跟我們國防外交聯席的這個台印的MOU |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4988.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4999.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
因為昨天在討論這件事情的時候我覺得蠻重要的一點是在於說MOU第一個它到底是不是一個能夠送到立法院審查的這集要打一個問號因為畢竟MOU是個意向書那按照條約締結法它並不是一個協定那畢竟它 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5003.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5003.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
有,那是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5033.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5058.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那這個部分當然因為本來是這個就是要應該講說是查照變成備查嘛那當然尊重立法院的質詢那後來也是審查完成之後也是准以備查所以這個部分我們跟勞動部也都有溝通對因為我昨天發現在這個質詢的場合裡面蠻多人他們並沒有特別的因為我畢竟不是在不是每個人都跟國防外交有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5058.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5085.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以不是每個人都關心就是談硬之間的關係但我認為這個因為談硬之間之前有講到3S什麼student society還有science and technology所以這個是一個算是society相關的一個交流事項那這一次在他們的政府裡面我們談硬的關係也是不斷的在加溫所以我覺得這算是一個蠻重要的事項那希望以後外交部能夠也多多因為讓勞動部他們在回答的時候因為畢竟昨天都不是外交部回答都是勞動部在回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5086.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5102.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
他們能夠做一些勞動相關的社會影響力評估這沒問題但對於外交的那些評估有可能需要外交部的協助再來就是今天的主題關於聯合國相關的組織當然我們最近有爭取加入WHA還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5105.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5105.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
國際知識 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5121.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5140.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
還有歐洲他們不斷地用2758號來幫我們做解釋這個是因為我們在同盟關係之下也是外交部的一個努力那因為專報裡面有提到一點就是現在外交部也是要積極要去反制因為中國一直想要去把2758號解釋解釋成他們想要的樣貌那這個反制的措施現在具體來講有哪一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5142.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5169.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
當然除了美國就是他們跟做了法律的研究這個是我們怎麼樣去擴大宣傳這一次我想美國也包括跟第三方包括我們的邦交國配方也在展開所謂的public messaging campaign這樣的一個溝通我想這個不只是由上而下我想是全面性因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5171.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5196.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這個2758的決議其實它被扭曲、誤用這件事情很多國家都不知道所以並沒有限制臺灣參加國際組織或是說其他國家跟我們建交這些都是開放因為它只處理了蔣介石政權的代表它甚至沒有去觸及到臺灣所以這個臺灣到底能不能做什麼事情這是開放的這是各國基於主權都可以來跟臺灣交往國際組織也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5199.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5221.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
謝謝部長這個是正面的論述就是說我們要怎麼去告訴大家這個事實是什麼然後我們的邦交國怎麼去幫我們講話但因為反過來就是像中國他們會不斷的去在各式各樣的場合比如說這一次的今年的香格里拉會議他們又一樣會有這些這個通過這個台灣主權的一些論述那他每一次這種論述出來的時候我們的反擊的力道 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5222.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5243.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
就是當然我們跟盟友之間要選擇什麼時機然後去講2758號決議這是一個但另外一個就是他每一次中國在誤用2758號的時候我們除了能夠在社群媒體上面發聲明之外有沒有可能讓比如說我們跟盟友之間的聲明能夠時間點跟這個更為切合因為中國目前來講會來做這些事情的時間點大概都是那幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5244.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5264.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
所以我希望說外交部在這件事情上面我們能夠更快速的去迎擊這個中國的論述我昨天剛好在跟國防部相關的事情也有講到就是有時候一些投書裡面的內容似是而非那國防部到底要在第一時間然後要怎麼去做論述然後要怎麼讓人民知道我覺得現在好像看起來是越來越重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5265.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5293.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
是一方面除了美國說以外當然也影響很多友盟當然比如G7一些國家另外美國其實在這次WHA上面他也是反制中國對2758的決意所以這個是就是說其實是作用力跟反作用力另外我特別跟很多來台灣我們的這些外賓都會講中共的法律戰他事實上是為他的武力犯台 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5294.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5311.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
在合理化取得一個所謂的法的基礎這是法律戰所以越是我們不去回應去破解這2758號決議的話他會以這個把台灣就是變成中國的內政台海變成中國的內海 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5312.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5335.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
而且大家一聽就覺得這不是單獨法律爭議的問題這是中共武力併台在做法律基礎的準備大家都會覺得說這個必須要我們一起來看怎麼樣去回應所以不只是參加國際組織而涉及到這個台海的和平跟穩定都會跟這一個2758號決議會有關那2758號決議其實很多人不去了解內容就用九二共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5337.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5358.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
很多人聽說有共識很好可是你去了解92年那時候就沒有什麼共識是後來發明的2000年蘇起所以我覺得不能夠變成一個就是他做到一個稻草人然後就是有所謂的這個2758號決議我覺得2758號決議某種程度是所謂中共虛構的七一共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5359.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5371.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
1971年那九二共識就是1992年又虛構了另外一個共識他用這樣的一個決議啦共識來作為合理化他武力犯台就把台灣問題變成中國的內政這個大家會聽說 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5375.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5396.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
對,這個就不是單獨只是說兩邊在那邊吵什麼這個法律的問題,它是涉及到混合戰,為法律,為這個軍事的犯台奠定基礎。謝謝部長,因為提到法律戰這一件事情我們都是感同身受,而且非常重要的一點是的確國際上很多的盟友對於法律戰這個legal warfare的概念並不是那麼清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5396.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5414.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
但他偏偏是寫在解放軍的教科書上面說這就是他們發動戰爭的一種方式所以讓盟友理解法律這樣的一個框架我認為是非常重要的而且這個所謂的這個不存在的協議他們最近才跟菲律賓也弄了一個幽靈協議就是對方到底簽協議的人在哪裡都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5415.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5439.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
他宣稱有這個協議的存在一樣的事情一定也會還會再對台灣發生但是這個剛好就切到下一個問題就是剛好他們公佈這個懲治台獨的意見然後這個台獨分子可以處以死刑啊什麼等等之類的那這個呢當然比較多可能是跟陸委會相關的不過這邊很快速的想要問一下外交部就是在於說因為他這個是廣泛的適用在他們所謂的台獨分子那這些人有可能在海外 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5440.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5462.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
在海外這些人可能有些國家他有一些引渡條例雖然政治犯原則上是不引渡的但是中國到底會做出什麼事情來以及跟他友好的國家會做出什麼事情來我們不敢擔保所以就變成說外交部這一次在這個意見出現之後對於海外的國人的這個告知然後還有風險的一個評估不知道開始了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5462.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5487.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
是,我們有做過國安高層的會議,比如說發布陳冊警戒、警告對於旅遊區、對於中國方面另外就是在海外因為有涉及到有一些跟中國有簽訂司法互助跟引渡條約的甚至裡面也有相當一部分有一中原則在建交公報裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5488.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5513.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那這個都是過去甚至有一些國家以所謂的對於刑事犯罪像詐騙那進行所謂的引渡或遣返那這些就是我們特別要注意所以我們已經有訓練外館要去跟當地政府溝通然後另外有任何的事態發生我們的處置我們現在也都在進行這方面那讓國人也提高警覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5514.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5537.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
然後不會讓中共的這個所謂的長臂管轄或者是跨境的鎮壓去傷害到國人因為這個問題是透過我想最近中共對像海警法也不只是對台灣他對於這個相當多的臨近的這些國家都是以他自己的法律在做國際上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5538.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5566.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個就是說一個灰色地帶或混合戰那這個我們也是要跟國際要做好溝通這不是單獨對台灣好 謝謝部長那最後提醒一點因為時間到了就是說希望趕快可以給海外的台灣人有一些指引讓他們知道可能的風險然後再來就是中國在其他形式他有一個做法就是他可能先用詐欺的方式或者任何的其他的罪名先引渡等到到了中國之後他再轉換罪名變成政治犯這種事情也會蠻常見的所以可能也必須告訴國人這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5567.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5568.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
接下來請林楚英委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5591.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5599.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
謝謝主席有請林部長那麼歐洲司的司長如果等一下稍後需要的話可以協助部長回應請部長還有司長部長早委員早我們今天的題目其實就是如何運用國際友我組織來讓我國加入聯合國所以說我想承接剛剛這個沈伯陽委員的說法就是中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5618.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5620.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以委員會應該優先啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5640.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5662.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
所以中華民國國民就是台獨份子啊因為我必須講中華民國就是一個國家如果你要去延伸中國的定義的話那當然我們的定義我們自己做主沒錯但是他現在就是真的包山包海了我們要知道中華民國的國民你一出生接下來你有機會就會拿到身份證嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5662.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5677.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以這個部分部長你怎麼來看我延續的事來講是我們在這個推動國際組織的這個部分現在第一線的外管人員去強調我是中華民國的外交官的時候害怕嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5679.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5698.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
外交官我們不會害怕我們就是說捍衛國家主權跟人民我覺得這個非常重要因為對於中國的恫嚇他其實就是先說先贏但是在先說先贏之後我們也了解到的是國際現實的狀況底下那麼除了大概統促黨新黨這種就是認為中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5702.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5726.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
等於中華人民共和國的一部分這種政治立場不然的話我們身為中華民國的國民那麼不論是從昨天的國防部的國軍弟兄保衛中華民國保衛我們自己的國家到第一線的外交人員但是我們看到的現在的國際現實是我特別列出來現在有53個國家跟中國是簽有引渡的條款包括香港 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5726.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5755.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那麼言下之意就是現在說實話如果香港送到香港也等於送到中國我特別列出的53國當中像韓國、泰國、菲律賓、越南、新加坡、馬來西亞甚至於法國、英國、德國、義大利、捷克為什麼我會特別標紅點的原因是根據我的了解這些都是現在接下來今天大概就是學校尤其中小學生最後一天上課馬上進入7月就是旅遊的高峰季了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5756.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5776.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那麼當中國是用這種缺席審判的方式都可以來進行程序的時候我們拿著中華民國的護照出國那麼中國的懲治新規定外管要怎麼樣如何來因應會不會有剛剛我們所講的他隨便安你一個罪名就把你先用 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5777.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5803.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所謂缺席審判然後就把你的人先押走甚至於把他引渡到中國你們現在有進行這樣的思考或者是跟國安單位或是相關的單位來進行SOP的演練或者是開會討論嗎有已經有開過國安高層的會議也責成國安會跟相關部會包括外交部就具體的因應再進一步來這個就是來讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5806.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5833.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
能夠有一個整體的因應的做法特別對外交部來講我們對外管因為這個涉及到跟當地國家的交涉怎麼去預防或萬一有發生的時候去妥善的因應那我們也訓練外管要注意這個最近這個因為中共公布了這個所謂懲治台獨的這些相關的意見之後可能的輿情的反應跟我們的溝通還有後續的因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5835.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5840.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
因為對於很多的國人來講今天一個最新的民調是有七成以上的民眾認為自己是台灣人那麼對於台灣民眾來講認為自己是中華民國的國民這個更是畫上等號無庸置疑的比如說我現在要舉一個例子就是昨天我們的蕭副總統也出席了這個在台灣舉辦的文化奧運的記者會我們有超過22個文化的表團會前往巴黎另外我們台灣代表隊其實現在也已經啟程出發了 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5864.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5885.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
也就是說7月20號開始之後我們看到的是會有許多包括參加奧運或者是表演文化表團現在人就在歐洲那麼這些有引渡條款的國家當中就包括了法國英國德國義大利跟捷克這些歐五的國家是連在一起的 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5885.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5905.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
有些人他是為了看奧運而去歐洲有些人當然是我們的代表國家代表隊會參加奧運或者是出席表演現在人就在歐洲那麼凸如其來的像這樣的一個新規範跟新規定對於這些代表隊或者是前往歐洲的人民的部分我想問一下歐洲司做了哪些準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5908.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5927.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
報告委員我們對於這個如果有萬一有發生什麼緊急應變我們已經有擬定緊急應變計畫那同時我們也請外管來進行演練那有關於這個新生出來的這個22條的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5929.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5939.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那我想依據國際的引渡的基本的原則他也必須要兼顧人權尤其您剛剛所提到這些國家基本上都是民主國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5940.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5957.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好 但是如果就如同沈梁委員剛剛所說的他絕對第一個罪名不會認為說是安你一個台獨分裂分子他可以是用其他的詐騙或是其他的罪犯的名義包括過去我曾經在這裡質詢過國安局的局長他會檢查你的手機認為你的手機當中有認為他們不符合規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5962.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5975.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那麼像這樣的狀況的時候當然那是在中國會發生但是在歐洲的時候他用其他的方式的時候這個部分你們有沒有提醒國人必須要注意包括現在提醒要前往歐洲的民眾國人要了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5980.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6003.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我想我們目前也會加強跟我們營業相近的夥伴國家的溝通那尤其是在引渡的事情上面我想他們也會都應據他們個別的國內法他們是基於他們的法治跟民主理念我們會特別提醒說這方面他們也要特別的謹慎尤其是當涉及到中國的問題的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6004.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6026.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
好那最後一個問題要請教部長的就是有關於現在中美代表俞大雷所引發的這些爭議對於部內來講現在是不是已經調查清楚了我想應該是分成兩個部分第一個當然就是有關於公款的這個使用那麼公款的使用我認為外交人員在國外代表的就是我們的國家就是中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6028.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6042.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
不到奢華但是我認為也不需要裝窮尤其是台灣can help台灣是一個可以協助各個國家的所以在公款的使用上面我們明明白白會有規矩會有規定那麼有它必要該花我們則花 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6044.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6065.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那這個部分我想外交部應該可以給一個比較明確的答案那麼至於還有其他包括館長尤其是余大雷他在管理上面有沒有出問題這個部分現在外交部有查清楚了嗎有答案了嗎因為包括現在國民黨要求他兩個禮拜之內回來但是我們要知道外交工作尤其是剛剛我們提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6067.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6068.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以部長這兩個問題外交部查清楚了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6085.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6098.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
採購的部分我想都是依法依程序相關的規範辦理至於說個別的項目外界有一些不同的這個意見涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6099.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6100.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那這有超出預算嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6126.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6152.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
他都是需要經過我們秘書處還有我們的會計單位同意還有核可所以這個程序上是沒有問題所以說認定上那當然就是把它解釋清楚那立法委員也有要這個資料我們也有給那當然有些說因為什麼用秘因為涉及到外管他判斷這些項目可能會涉及到一些機敏性但是內容的部分都有讓委員可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6153.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6166.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那至於說管理上確實在第一線打仗壓力很大那同仁特別辛苦我們一定要能夠相互的扶持因為我們是一致要對外那內部的管理要該檢討改革都應該不斷的來精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6170.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6193.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
好 本席就要講的是不要讓第一線不論是基層或者是代表國家的外交官能夠感覺上好像他們的努力沒有受到重視那不論是基層或者是代表的助管的這個外交官代表其實都是同樣的對為外交來做努力那麼這個部分還是請部長要注意好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6199.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6200.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
徐巧欣委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6223.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6240.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
林部長好,說起來對你有點為難,因為你才剛上任,但我今天要問的問題呢,很多發生的都是在前一任的吳釗燮部長的任內,但是我相信你會有決心希望改革,讓這樣子的事情不再發生,對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6242.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6258.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們發現駐美代表處的問題可以說是非常的多在過去馬文君召委曾經揭露一件事情就是外交官搞婚外情而且情緒勒索不允許分手就是大家可以自己看文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6259.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6285.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
在去年6月的時候我們馬昭偉就已經問過了請問一下後來這位交信的參事他還在外交部任職嗎?他的職務現在是什麼?在部內在部內他的職務是什麼?副司長副司長嘛歐洲是從駐美參事的交到歐洲式的副司長我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6293.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6312.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以我們在馬朝偉提出了相關的細節說外遇啊PUA之後呢那他其實實際上面還在我們外交體系裡面那有很好的職務可以擔任你們大家對於這個事情沒有太多的檢討我們北美市長想要說明因為他比較了解這個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6314.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6334.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
他現在是我們的副司長那先前這個事情這個黑函出來的時候我是在駐美代表處的我有曾經問過我們國會組的同仁沒有人說有被他就是情緒勒索任何的情況這些我們在駐美代表處所做的這些跟同仁的訪談我們都有做成書面的記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6336.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6355.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這是沒有發生的事情那我們另外的收到了一個陳情就是我們新聞在報的于大雷代表的夫人對於某一位我們的事務官不喜歡他因為認為他服務不周而被換掉又遭到行政組長衛信的組長據說就是剛剛這一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6359.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6379.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
前駐美參市的焦先生的妻子．對她的霸凌造成同仁必須離職你們都說沒有收到陳情書現在我手上有一份陳情書我想要請主席裁示讓我把這份陳情書遞交給我們的外交部長我們時間稍微停一下好 謝謝給我好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6391.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6393.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
在這個陳情書裡面他提到了包含是分工不平均這個員工數次表示自己的職務太繁重希望可以重新分工已經負荷過了但是還要被強加更多的職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6408.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6436.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
還有業務上碰到困難要反應的時候會先批評他的做事方式工作上面求救無效已經沒有辦法負擔之後卻沒有辦法找到其他的管道而且會討論是非在這個群組上質疑他然後也沒有求證所以這個部分既然現在已經有人來澄清部長是否能夠同意回去調查那再將結果回覆給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6437 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6459.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們沒有公開相關的這個被陳情仁的資料也是就像剛剛您說的我們也不希望我們也希望經過調查之後再確認這件事情是否為真請問部長能夠在多久的時間之內做到呢當然委員剛剛給我這一份資料那看起來是有點好像他寫給內部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6461.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6474.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
同仁是不是正式的澄清當然我們會了解不過有這個資料我們也會來了解那大概需要多久的時間我們能夠調查完畢再跟我說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6477.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6501.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
應該是一個月內我們可以把這個事情然後我們再看到外交部的霸凌事件頻傳這是我們整理出來所有外交部在過去這個也不能怪您當時您也不是外交部長在無招卸任內裡面的外交部的官員頻頻遭到霸凌、輕生還有涉及性騷擾還有記得我還有這個外交的性騷、MeToo等等的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6502.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6502.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
請問部長這個人還在我們的外交部嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6525.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6528.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
是否當時有涉及這樣的一個問題沒問題請來幫忙補充跟委員報告關於修士頓的羅處長的部分像目前是已經調回到我們外交學院那至於是不是婚外情這部分我們基本上沒有辦法完全求證 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6543.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6546.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
他有沒有對於部內的他們的基層員工進行霸凌你們有沒有了解過這件事情這件事情應該是我們沒有接到這樣子的一個訊息你們沒有接到但是我有接到這個呢 處長呢他的霸凌行徑是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6571.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6594.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我們駐美處的專員被羅姓處長要求每天上班的時候只能坐在電腦桌前面不能開電腦不能做任何事就是呆呆的坐在前面8個小時再回家已經逼到對方快要輕生所以後來這名這個年輕的專員現在也已經調回台北目前呢在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6595.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6604.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
現在好好的在我們的外交部持續的來任職這個案子部長您一定是不知情的那請問是不是也可以進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6605.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6626 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
做一個全面性的改革我們會來了解因為如果涉及到不管是這個相關的這個性騷擾或者是這些當然這個我們法令規定很民主可是所謂的霸凌還有內部領導或管理那這個我們需要當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6627.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6646.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
在外管當然這個館長他要負起權責不過就是我們也要去了解啦因為有時候是工作上的關係的分工那是不是構成到霸凌這個也是要再加以釐清那不能說大家自己關關相護這是我的要求再來大家很關心這個余大雷的事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6647.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6659.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
現在被爆料的包含是這個超級貴的沙發然後兩樁超級貴的床墊然後藍芽音響咖啡機跟地毯不過就你們提供給我們的資料報紙上面的這些報導跟實際上面的價格是不太一樣的報導的價格我們可以看下一張這個跟你們提供給我們資料是有出入的那剛才部長也講了大概200多萬左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6672.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6686.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
但是呢我想問一個問題你們只提供給我們在這個一萬美元以上的項目但一萬美元以下的私人物品的部分你們會不會再針對這個部分進行調查他有沒有挪用公款的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6687.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6687.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
最後我有一個問題要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6703.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6715.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
為交部回覆本辦關於所謂的這個凱迪拉克的這個車子是否有去購買的時候你們提供給我的內容叫做駐美代表處113年並未提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6719.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6746.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
並未提出購置館長坐車之需求該處館長坐車已於111年5月購置完畢車型為Benz E5450排氣量為3000cc可是你們在新聞記者會的說明資料裏面寫的是外交部並沒有同意相關的採購車輛意思是說對方有提出但是你們沒有同意請問哪一份才是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6747.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6768.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
來我請那個林子春跟委員報告那個館長的那個坐車確實是沒有提出那那個新聞稿裡面說外交部並沒有同意換購相關車輛是公務車的部分所以是公務車的部分嗎所以除了這台Benz之外他還額外希望要買一台公務車是凱迪拉克但是外交部沒有同意這樣的需求嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6769.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6769.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
好,謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6800.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6802.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
接下來請王定宇召委上臺質詢王定宇召委上臺質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6828.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6853.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
外交總是充滿困難的那我們常常是希望給我們外交人員不管在國外或國內都給予最大的支持跟鼓勵但是一旦有了黑函有了醜聞有了這樣的傳聞不管是否為真對於該住管的工作的執行人員的士氣都有相當大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6855 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6871.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以本期期待部長對於相關的傳聞甚至於有時候臨時問你你根本沒辦法辨別真假像我剛才聽到我不認為現在年輕的外交官可以被處長館長叫去坐在電腦前面盯著那個螢幕不准開機 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6874.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6902.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這個現在公務員也不容許這樣子對待所以是否為真要儘速有個答案哪怕半夜都應該有答案而不是在回答說這個我們來瞭解看看因為一旦傳聞被傳後面證明不是真的傷害都已造成更何況外交人員代表是我們國家的門面所以有關美國住處這是我們台灣最重要的外交單位那這個真相本其實希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6903.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6903.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
不要再拖過24個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6906.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6934.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
進速有個答案比如說他要換車後來看起來是沒有嘛他自己的車沒有要換他希望有個車這些東西都可以調列出來是否隕蕩那我們也不是要求我們駐外人員每個人都要有補丁要過著清垦因為代表是國家的門面就像國外的外國大使住在台灣他們要求的管社大概都是地保那個等級的這都有一定代表國家顏面所以在合宜合理的範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6935.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6948.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
後部長我覺得你們應該就這樣的傳聞盡速釐清否則每次有人事異動每次有人事的這個將部長換了下面這些我們就會收到一疊信 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6950.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6977.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那以往當然有的有的真的像秦日新那個就真的嘛秦日新那是真的那發生那個事情該怎麼處分就該怎麼處分所以不要包庇不要護短但是牽涉到國家外交事務特別美國現在總統大選特別台美關係現在是重要的關係在這樣狀況下美促的事情就不容許這樣延燒我不曉得部長你從美促發生這樣的事情到目前為止所有的傳聞你們到底掌握多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6981.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6981.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
原來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6982.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7009.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
各方的意見我都有收到首先就是說採購的部分我們把它釐清管理的部分採購有沒有如同傳聞的或者報導的那個狀況所以外面講說800萬那我今天早上在記者也有說明就是說扣掉了那些硬體就是備用的發電機事實上上半年整個這些採購的財產就是大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7013.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7014.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
該怎麼處理就怎麼處理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7040.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7066.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我也不認為現在有哪個官大到可以非他不可但是如果沒有不當也應該要明確否則這樣在外裡面這樣放火燒對國家不是好事我在意的不是一個個人或一個外交官而是這個事情處理的態度外交部應該要清楚明瞭而迅速我跟委員說明因為我們所掌握到就是因為外館有人 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7068.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7096.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
人的不滿提供了這個資料那也給委員那後來也給媒體這是另外一部分內部的領導管理的問題但是我說就已經發生了我們就要來處理人的不滿現代社會都會有啦社會做方便的啦手機還可以寫嘛但我的意思說站在外交部作為國家的門面你應該去思考是他所傳出來的事情第一個有沒有涉及不法沒有就說沒有有的話就依從法辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7097.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7123.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
再來有沒有合於我們長年數十年累積的外交的規範跟禮儀也有那就說清楚最後有沒有涉及私德不當的那如果這三個都沒有那只是說我感受到覺得你對我不禮貌那個就讓社會來公平而不是說大家不能講可以講但是前面這三塊很重要因為這三塊如果回答的置之烏烏不清不楚的話我坦白講 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7124.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7127.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以委員我在第一次回應外界就是說這個事情沒有步伐 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7140.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7164.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那依照採購的規定但是是不是有它的必要性跟合理性這就要項目去討論這一題我現在沒有定見答應我沒有看到資訊我只能建議部長在最快的時間內不要再過20小時了很清楚的就法律規定就外交的我們一般的禮儀規範以及就私人的部分這三塊有或沒有能夠釐清現在24小時都可以通電話了 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7166.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7189.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這樣子讓國人說喔那這個可能是人跟人的相處或者人事的問題或者怎麼樣那講的人就講那有個價值判斷而已但至少這三塊有沒有清清楚楚這要盡快啦好不好我最後請我接下來請教那個我們跟范帝剛的問題范帝剛現在是我們在歐洲齁大概唯一也是重要的外交關係那教廷國 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7191.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7206.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
跟中國之間在這一任的教宗他一直希望他有個歷史成就歷史定位也就是照顧中國教區的信徒我們對這沒意見天主教有他的這個他的神權國家的一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7207.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7230.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那中國呢中共一直他是無神論國家所以中共那邊的主教叫做愛國主教愛國神職人員都要他來任命所以一直有抵觸下所以台灣跟梵蒂岡的邦交呢相對起來是一個穩定但從這一任教宗在前幾年由香港的主教向台灣提出警告我們就一直在密切注意這個事情了這幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7232.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7257.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
在中共的官媒環球網很罕見的報導了兩件事情一個是承認梵蒂岡任命杭州主教做標題等於是承認他任命主教第二個是梵蒂岡希望在中國設立常設辦事處就這個消息因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7259.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7260.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
有關於這個報導兩個部分第一個部分就是教廷他 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7285.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7287.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
中國讓教廷國可以派主教? |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7295.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7314.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
不是,因為他們有一個臨時的主教任命協議那他們是依據他們的臨時主教任命協議由他們雙方協調的結果那所以事實上中國在這個過程中也扮演他們自己的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7316.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7324.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
長期以來是認為任命主教權是神權不能有協調的過程對 但是他們跟所以常說這個主教是經過協調任命出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7326.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7353.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個是他們依據他們現在已經應該是第5年或第6年有一個臨時協議那他們跟越南也是有類似的處理方法教廷希望在中國設辦事處這件事情教廷已經說了非常多次但是中國依據教廷的說法中國一直在這個問題上他並沒有願意讓步因為教宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7354.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7378.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因為如果是有這個代表那是教宗的代表但是中國是一個無神論的國家所以我時間到我請最後請教我們現在跟教廷國的邦交狀況我們跟他們的跟教廷的邦交基本上是穩固比如說在520總統就職的時候教廷也派遣了特使你現在還在用燈號標示有他現在是什麼燈 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7380.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7391.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這部分好像是機密我可以跟委員進行報告機密我尊重因為我們每個國家都坦白講沒有一個局勢是可以樂觀的很多蛛絲馬跡還是要注意好謝謝部長好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7399.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7410.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
目前我們收到臨時提案共兩案待會黃國昌委員質詢結束以後進行處理處理完畢休息5分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7432.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7459.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
委員長部長,台灣現在是正常國家嗎?很特別啦我們在國際的地位是很特別的正常的國家應該說很特別就是當然你看怎麼定義正常比如說國際上面的這個外交上這個處境確實是很不正常很特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7460.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7488.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
一個國家它的幾個構成的要件這個我想就不用再贅述那其中加入聯合國是其中的重要的要件嗎不是不是嗎不是重要的要件今天我看到我們的議程是說請部長來報告如何用國際友我組織來去加入聯合國那其實在這半年來不管是在當選前後那跟各個不同的國會議員的交流的這個過程當中我們有聽到一些不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7489.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7489.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我今天想問說 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7512.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7522.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
把這個議程我們用另外一個方式來想如何運用國際友我組織達成加入聯合國的同等目標是部長有怎麼樣的看法針對這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7525.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7547.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
運用友我的組織達成加入聯合國相關組織的具體做法是你們的命題嘛那我說有沒有辦法運用友我的組織達成加入聯合國的相關的同等目標聯合國的幾個重要的議程是什麼包含永續嘛包含這個跟各國之間的交等等有沒有辦法用超聯合國的這樣子也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7548.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7551.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
國際上各種非聯合國體制下相關聯盟來加強我國與其他國際上的國家實體或非國家實體互動,有這樣的想法或計畫嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7565.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7593.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
其實在全球化的時代其實台灣是世界的台灣這個不只是說價值外交理念相近至少說實質上台灣其實對全球的影響是很大的我想包括從晶片那另外一方面就是我們在國際上怎麼去參與當然聯合國是最重要的目標但是不是只有聯合國 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7593.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7619.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們跟很多國家其實很多國際組織也不屬於聯合國那臺灣也可以去創設一些國際組織所以臺灣這個方面我們勇敢自信世界同行那至於說為什麼要去處理參加聯合國那是因為中國對於臺灣參加聯合國把它當作一個一中原則的體現我們一定是要去不能夠接受這一種勿用這個所謂的2758號決議那這個就像一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7623.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7639.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
一個鍋蓋把台灣蓋住這個鍋蓋如果能夠拿走那台灣的國際參與空間就非常的大但是這個目標也是最大的很困難的一個挑戰可是以這個為目標之外我們其實在過程中其實就跟國際有很多的互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7640.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7663.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
其實這個也是另外一個目標所以部長我還是在強調說除了加入聯合國之外其他相似的功能性做功能性的導向來去盤點任何國際組織在被聯合國體制之下我們能夠參與能夠發聲那甚至是能夠扮演重要角色的我們都能夠來去促成我想這也是很重要的但是我想剛才也提到2758號的決議文我想請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7665.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7694.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
再次透過這樣子國會的這個機會來去重申一下因為2758號決議文現在在中國的敘事框架他直接把它連結到一中原則部長你怎麼看這件事情你覺得我們要怎麼樣解讀我覺得針對美國包括國務院的數次的聲明都可以很清楚的看到其實他們是經過很詳細的研究不管就聯合國的這個2758號決議相關的國際法那其實它的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7696.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7724.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
不涉及台灣的國際的參與所以這個部分就是一個開放的空間那至於說中共要把它把它扭曲為一中原則進而排除台灣那我想我們除了台灣發聲以外其實在國際上現在越來越多都去理解說原來那個是一個中共他這個塑造出來的依靠假的論述那 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7725.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7744.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
台灣其實在這個過程裡面跟理念相近的國家像G7其實都以行動在加強我們多邊的關係比如說我們也透過跟美國像GCTF像國際合作訓練架構其實也在架構一個可能另外的一個國際的一種組織的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7747.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7773.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以這些其實空間是非常的大那現在只是怎麼樣讓更多的人正確的理解不要聽信中共的片面之詞而排除了跟台灣交往或者國際參與謝謝部長部長再來要請教一下這個駐美代表的事件我覺得要藉這個機會來正式聽那不管是怎麼樣如果有這件事情我們要知道這個進展為如何從2000年到現在我們有幾個代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7776.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7801.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
2000年到現在大概沒關係這個不重要這不重要我們來講一下從陳建仁李大偉吳釗燮袁建生金浦聰神旅尋道高碩泰我們一切要講究的是什麼就是說體制上面如果不違法那如果你只是用觀感或者是你代表對一個人的不滿那就可以用內部的方式來去糾舉嗎這是現行的體制是怎麼樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7802.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7803.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這是兩個問題啦就是說採購是不是有為 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7808.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7831.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
反法規目前因為它既然是我們秘書處跟我們的會計合可的那就是程序上沒有問題所以是合法但是有個項目有些人覺得有意見那也經過媒體報導我們把它澄清就是說這個項目它的真正的價格是多少那有沒有反應實際上就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7833.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7847.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我現在不做細部來去做討論因為如果要做每一個細部來討論的話那這樣子同時可以反映到五院院長每一個部會的首長甚至包含部長本身下到縣市首長我們要問的是你剛剛說合法再有沒有合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7853.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7870.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
前例可不可詢?從陳建仁、李大維、吳釗燮、袁建生、金浦聰、沈旅巡到高索泰。前例比較起來,是不是符合前例?有或沒有?所以除了合法性、他的這個要性嗎?合理性有沒有跟過去是一樣的?有沒有不同之處? |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7871.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7891.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
就是就那些項目因為一開始大家報的數字很大後來知道不是這麼大有一些是錯誤的報導嘛那我們就把它澄清那我說為什麼那個具體的項目要去談是因為大家覺得從自己的感覺就好像比較貴可是經過說明啊也有他他也也是一個採購部長我們就是我只是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7893.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7916.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
要請教的是有沒有跟潛力是一致性有沒有我不是講單價我不要講價格我們對這個價格沒有如果是合理又合法的話那我們要還公道如果是合法但不合理的話那內部要有懲處那如果又是合法又合理那只是一個外交人員的看法的話那內部要檢討所以你有沒有合法有沒有合理到底這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7917.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7942.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
是對還是錯?誰對誰錯?這個一定要很公正的必須要部長作為外交部的大家長必須要站出來哪一個人到底是哪一個人做錯了必須要很明確的克責的這個做法不管是哪一個不管是大使或者是...這種採購我們都有規範跟程序他只要符合這個規範跟程序基本上我們就尊重不管權責機關不管是駐外的這個大使或者我們的秘書、會計單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7945.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7960.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這單項因為外界已經有報導了因為有錯誤的訊息我們就澄清至於說外界認為這樣有沒有必要性去換這個床跟沙發我今天早上也講這床的部分因為20年前同樣一個品牌他去換現在價格比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7962.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7991.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
他應該是有合理性可是沙發比一般人認定的可能價格高一些那就好好的去說明這個採購因為這個採購已經經過我們外交部的秘書處跟已經合可了在我上任之前我覺得這個只要是依法行政我都予以尊重至於說內部因為有些人對於管理方式有意見而可能去有爆料的問題那只要他的內容是 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7993.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8014.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
是真的我們就要處理他也許還沒有正式去申訴或者是說去怎麼樣的檢舉我們目前並沒有正式的這樣的一個他提出來但是我們大概知道因為內部的管理又涉及到在外管這個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8017.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8037.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
要去好好地把內部管理的東西也做個檢討因為讓大家一起一個團隊不要因為互相的這種不信任或者是因為工作上的這些不平而導致我們外館尤其在華府這個地方這麼重要它的能夠發揮的一個功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8042.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8042.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8084.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8085.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
信律主席是嗎?有請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8097.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8123.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
部長好針對駐美大使在他住的地方採買的事情引發了社會非常多的討論那部長從今天詢答的過程也做了很多的表示但我要講一個比較範圍比較大而不是只有這個隔岸的事情因為我去的時候我去喊的時候你們的確有回函但編密件雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8124.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8147.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我對於這個事情為什麼要編密件我老實說我從法律的角度百思不得己見但我尊重外交部你們編密件我就把它全部遮起來內容我有看但你們編密件了以後給我的訊號是細節不能公開內容不能討論要不然會有洩密的問題嘛好那你們編密件 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8148.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8170.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
你們的基礎應該是行政院的文書處理手冊第51條各機關就主管業務核定一般公務機密文書因依法律或法律具體授權的法規命令為之你們這次編密件的法律或者是法律授權的法規命令是什麼是我同時來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8173.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8198.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
報告委員因為我們各個外管的經費的明細是放在我們的機密預算的內容去表達那這樣子的表達方式其實每年都有經過大院審議同意通過那所以我們送給委員的資料我們是依照相關規定我們還是回到法規來講因為你一直跟我講相關規定所以我幫你們把行政院文書處理手冊第51條列出來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8201.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8226.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
是我引的調製錯嗎?還是你用其他的條文的規定?台灣是法治國家這種事情要說清楚講明白啊他是說總預算在提出的時候有點太機密來來來請部長看一下第51條因依法規或法律具體明確授權的法規命令為之嘛那我現在就請教你你的法律或法律授權的法規命令的基礎是什麼啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8229.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8256.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
這是一個很基本的問題啊我們號稱我們希望台灣是一個民主法治的國家我們跟老共不一樣嘛老共是人質嘛是獨裁政體嘛上面的人說了就算了嘛台灣就不是嘛那請問法規的依據是什麼我想經過大院審過的預算放列在機密預算它本身也具有法律的效果我這樣講好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8257.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8286.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
你說列為機密預算那誰會把它露出來有法律的效力沒有關係你做這樣子的說明法律上面站得住腳站不住腳大家可以進一步討論你們說這些資訊有機密性恐遭中共掌握我國外館的資源配置我國外館大使的宿舍沙發花多少錢我們擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8288.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8307.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我們咖啡機花多少錢擔心中共掌握所以會發生什麼事情會擔心我們的大使咖啡喝太好然後台灣的外交會做得太好因為這個基本上的邏輯要跟道理要跟一般的民眾講清楚要不然大家沒辦法理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8309.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8324.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
請部長我們的同仁說明一下雖然我們提供的資料是比較個案零星但是這涉及到整體的資源的配置今天如果我將這些零星的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8324.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8325.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
對,所以我在一直問你啊,相關規定是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8344.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8347.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
如果今天我把具體的數字講出去有沒有洩密罪的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8370.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8370.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
尊重委員決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8384.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8402.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這不是你尊重我的決定啊臺灣是一個法治國家嘛所以你們依照的法律到底是什麼然後你今天跟我說你尊重我的決定我具體的請教站在外交部的立場我把一套沙發花了多少錢講出去有沒有泄密罪的問題有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8403.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8414.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我們用密件處理希望委員依照相關規定辦理是阿所以我到目前為止都尊重你們的密件阿我請教你密件的法律基礎是什麼問到現在你還是講不出來阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8419.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8421.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
臺灣作為一個法治國家,要不要有一個客觀的法律標準?應該要有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8445.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8473.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
部長你應該可以同意嘛是是吧好來看一下去年外交部單位決算書這個是我上網公開上面看到的資料來看一下2023年12月5號電惠預付美國預購新任余大使館長植物宿舍家具及公務手機所需費用7697美金奇怪這不是機密嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8474.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8503.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
怎麼會在決算報告裡面寫得這麼清楚在決算報告寫成這樣然後告訴立委所知說這是機密這個會不會洩漏我國啊在大使的資源配置啊他說不會啦報委員因為我們在決算書上面只會去揭露預付款的項目這是屬於零星採購是看不出來整個但是你讓大家知道最少花了7600嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8505.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8520.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
謝謝委員指教但是我們之所以解釋提供委員的資料會涉及到密件是因為會看得出來說整體的資源的配置這樣子我們希望我們是依照相關規定辦理我又說一次啦這個零星採購是看不出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8521.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8548.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
零星採購看不出來一個沙發多少錢看得出來看不出來我們是盡量公開就公開但是如果會涉及到違及到相關資源的配置的整體的項目的時候我們一定要所以你今天的論理是說一套沙發多少錢會違及到整體資源的配置不是對不起委員不是這樣解釋剛剛你不就是這樣說嗎這是屬於零星購置但是我提供給委員資料所以買沙發不是零星購置 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8551.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8553.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
買咖啡機是不是零星購置? |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8554.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8580.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
買手機是不是零星購置謝謝委員指教因為在預付款上面只有部分項目那我們提供給委員的項目是比較有整體性的那會看出來全貌我還是問問題嘛咖啡機一台多少錢會不會揭露整體配置會嗎他說不會我想應該也不會所以咖啡機一台多少錢是可以講的嗎是嗎咖啡機一台多少是可以講的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8581.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8584.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
沙發一套多少錢是可以講的嗎所以既然剛剛部長講了嘛咖啡機多少可以講沙發多少錢可以講這個是剛剛部長說的內容我應該沒有誤會錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8604.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8604.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我再說一次齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8622.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8644.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
國家機密有國家機密保護法一般公務機密有一般公務機密的法律或法規命令臺灣是一個法治國家什麼是密什麼不是密這應該要有法律明確的標準絕對不應該是行政單位個別自議的決定這樣的原則部長可以同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8645.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8647.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
但是我們不能公開討論因為公開討論就洩密啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8661.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8688.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我是覺得那個結構啦就那個配置啦因為給委員的是不能我只給單項嘛那但是我們現在討論的時候所以我單項可以討論嗎可以因為現在有些錯誤的報導我們當然澄清不然會造成傷害啊這個單項我是覺得解釋上是可以的啊現在按你們內部報帳的規則啊按你們內部報帳的規則有沒有任何規定一套沙發最高金額多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8689.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8710.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為各地的物價還有一些沒有關係我們就以美國來講一套雜貨最高的價格你們有沒有規定因為你們剛剛一直跟大家講嘛合乎規定所以報銷嘛合乎規定報銷合法的我們一定都尊重合不合理規定有沒有需要修改可以再討論但我現在的問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8712.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8730.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那依照你們目前的規定一套沙發有沒有設上限我講的是規定喔現在沒有切入到個案喔一套沙發以在美國來講在DC來講我們採購上限的金額按照目前外交部的規定是多少錢還是這也是外交秘密不能說 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8732.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8761.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
目前沒有規定啦所以沒有上線?沒有規定上線這樣合理嗎?部長你覺得?每個個案都要去討論嘛因為他當地的物價沒有我現在沒有在跟你討論個案我現在在跟你討論規定嘛我跟委員報告採購的金額如果沒有上線的話那就是不管買多少錢全部都合法因為沒有上線啊他有一個他要去申報跟那個他有一個合適的過程你申報合可就要按照規則嘛所以我才問你規則有沒有上線嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8762.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8782.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
他不是一條線死的,他一定是衡量各種情況各國的物價,然後我們的會計時間的關係,你們把事情複雜化了,你用的公開的預算,你用的科目是哪一個科目你把它編在密件嗎?機密嗎?這是公開的預算吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8783.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8787.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我理解,我現在只拜託部長一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8814.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8831.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我們住外的人員需要的資源在第一線打仗我們一定支持啦公務的支出我們一定支持啦但是花這個數額去買沙發必要性在哪裡那不是在辦公室那在他住的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8832.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8848.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
大家常常問嘛所以我現在我也不跟你講個案我跟你講規定外交部可不可以告訴所有的委員我們在外館採購各項物品我們所依循的規定是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8849.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8873.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
還是有各項變數就像我們以前我們要出國開會去哪裡一天報多少錢什麼可以報什麼不可以報項目是多少全部都有規定啊但我今天赫然發現原來買外館的東西我現在在講的喔不是什麼機密的公務的東西我現在在講的是咖啡機啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8873.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8895.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
是沙發?是床啊?是床頭櫃啊?這些東西可以沒有標準?愛怎麼買就怎麼買嗎?這是我的問題喔他一萬元以上要報到我們部裡面來核可就是這個程序我們會檢討讓他避免有一些就是外面覺得說相關的程序跟標準會後可不可以提供給所有的委員程序跟標準我沒有要個案喔程序跟標準就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8901.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8926.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們有那個支出的相關規定嘛那如果這個部分因為已經有大家的寶貴意見我們會納入啊看怎麼樣能夠讓他有個更明確的規範對所以你的程序跟規範是不是可以提供給大家好謝謝那待會相關的可能也順便提供一下因為不知道你用的是哪一個科目可是提供之用的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8927.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8928.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
一共有兩案,請議事人員宣讀第一案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8944.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8961.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
第一案,經我國外交部著名代表于大雷、經崔少哲報料及媒體報導,于代表上任後,對於公款使用有腐爛使用之嫌及私人物品之採購交代不清,並有曾行指出其太太不當使用外管公務車,更有對外 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8963.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8989.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
對外交基層人員使喚霸凌情勢．有調查釐清之必要．請外交部競速安排召回於大壘代表．對此次事件與相關公費之用情形品項明細．諸位人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事．作出調查報告．並於兩週內回覆提案人委員徐巧欣．黃仁馬文君陳永康等委員宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8991.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9018.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好 請問我們在場委員有沒有什麼其他的意見表達好 許曉旭委員我是這個案子的提案人嘛之一那我想呢是這樣子因為我看到這個余大雷代表他在美國的時候他有開了記者會然後他也做了很多的澄清可是他在這個美國做的澄清看起來在台灣這邊呢那大家還是有很多的質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9019.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9030.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以我覺得應該給他一個機會來到台灣把這整個事情說清楚也能夠讓民眾瞭解真相是什麼因為我也發現了就像剛才我跟這個部長在質詢的時候發現媒體的報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9034.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9052.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
和實際的情況是有出入的所以其實我是站在一個保護我們外交人員的立場希望他親自來說明之後可以把這些誤會好好的一個一個逐項的來解開那這樣子一來的話外界就不會再對駐美代表有任何的誤會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9052.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9071.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那但是我特別要提醒一件事情就是說我們剛剛被列為密件這部分呢有很多費用其實在決算書裡面就可以看到了例如說呢這個電視機一台跟藍牙一台音響一台所需經費1115.93美金折合台幣36000多的這個支出傳票在我們現在的現行的決算書裡面就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9080.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9100.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
但是我們立法委員收到的卻是密件這點我也覺得是令人質疑的那我覺得最好的辦法就是請于大雷這個大使來到我們國會來做說明可以解釋清楚很多媒體對他可能所不公平的他可能很委屈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9101.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9110.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
甚至他太太是否有涉及霸凌或是請公務人員陪他去買私人用品等等的問題我覺得是最好的一個方式以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9112.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9134.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
其他會員 王定宇 趙偉基本上我想我們有一個共識就是這個事情要趕快釐清那剛才我們也我個人也建議外交部在法律以及外交的禮節禮儀以及私德這三個事情不要拖近數釐清但是 召回大使是大事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9137.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9159.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
國內有個傳聞我們應該是讓外交部去競速把它調查清楚然後把它釐清出來如果說有個爭議我們就把大使叫回來問一個爭議我們要把大使叫回來問這會影響到外交事務因為我們駐地在美國所以我會建議說我們是不是兩個提案可以把它整合一下我們要求外交部競速我說的競速我都希望是在今天以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9160.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9188.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
要把相關事情釐清因為坦白講我們政府很多單位每次有人事變動的時候就黑汗滿天飛那裡面涉及個人感受的那個別去感受但是法律這個東西要把它釐清得非常清楚所以外交部責無旁貸不要再讓這些scandal gossip去影響你們真正的外交工作也不是這樣就把大使叫回來所以我是不是跟我們同仁討論一下我們兩個提案其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9188.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9194.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
一方向一樣但是真的不適合尤其駐美這麼重要的處處就兩周內交回來我們是不是可以協調一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9197.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9219.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這邊第二次發言因為呢我們可以看到就是說第一余大雷大使他在美國是有相關的發言所以他是有話想講的如果他沒有話想說的話我們今天不會做這個臨時提案那所以他到底有沒有意願他或許他是想要回來台灣做說明的這一點我們不知道可以去問問看 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9220.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9241.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
第二點我們所做的外交部的調查如果給我們的都是像目前這樣子的密件就算是調查出來了能夠解決人民的疑慮嗎我們裡面每一個東西都不能講啊咖啡機是多少錢床墊是多少錢都是被列為密件那在這樣子的情況裡面就算做了調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9242.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9271.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那又如何呢那能夠向大眾解決說明該案的爭議嗎所以我覺得兩個案子共同的來並行討論沒有問題但是是不是我們整體來說我們不能用密件的方式來處理應該是用完全公開透明的方式以招公信讓大家知道雙方面的說法尤其是我們也要相關的問題請于大雷大使他能夠做書面的回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9272.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9292.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
如果我可以同意剛剛王定宇趙偉所說的兩個禮拜請他回來確實姿勢體大以及呢可能在他的整個工作上面擔心會影響到他的流程可是既然他都開了記者會了那我們在臺灣也有很多問題想要問他那是否能夠以書面質詢的方式請他從美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9294.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9319.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
用書面質詢的方式回函過來我們公開的能夠讓所有的民眾都可以公開看所以如果是書面質詢的方式我能夠同意他不要回到台灣這個部分我在臨時提案部分我可以做修改但是如果說只是做了調查而到時候來的全部都是密件不好意思我覺得這個東西跟現行的狀況沒有兩樣最後又會不了了之 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9323.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9324.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
林楚茵委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9338.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9361.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
這個都是個人各自的解讀啦如果有人認為說他開記者會就表示有話想說那如果沒有開記者會是不是又落為說他在美國連回應都沒有所以要請他回來台灣所以他是不是要回來不是應該說他有沒有想說話有沒有公開開記者會而是以我們現在國家現行的狀況華府然後駐美這麼重要的一個位子那麼就把他找回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9361.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9375.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
第二個有關於密件的部分我也必須說我也有去申請資料我也看到了密件那麼我想每一位委員其實都可以申請資料如果外交部今天決定是密件那麼本來國防外交委員會就可以開秘密會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9376.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9388.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
所以是不是一定要于大雷回來首先第一個我還是保持比較客觀的講就是這麼重要的一個位置兩個禮拜裡面回來大家可能要多做思考尤其是面對現在的國際局勢的狀況那駐美非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9391.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9413.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那至於說有關於是不是需要到書面詢答或什麼的外交部我認為最重要的是還是部裡面必須要給一個報告那至於是不是密不密那這個因為本來依據我們的機密的設定本來就是行政機關的主觀可以決定那麼這個部分的話我覺得就看外交部等一下怎麼來決定這件事情但是我還是認為就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9415.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9415.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
徐委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9433.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9461.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
第三次發言其實實際上這一次這個外交部給我們的這個密件我這邊就是有收到兩份嘛那先謝謝外交部其實你們第一個提供的速度算是快的而且項目算是清楚的這兩件事情要給予肯定可是呢你們其實在整個密件上面是沒有提供法源依據的這一點跟我們行政院文書處理上面的規定其實剛剛黃國昌有講到的是不與法不合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9461.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9487.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
因為一般來說像我們其他收到的機密文件底下會附一個說那他的法源依據是來自哪裡這個在修法過後之後是一定要附上的但是你們沒有附上好那沒有關係那基本上呢這個我當然也同意民進黨團提議的這個說這個外交部的要儘速調查是否符合相關採購程序嘛並向社會大眾說明那如果寫到社會大眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9488.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9489.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
其實兩個提案可以併到第二個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9517.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9517.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
外交部部長林佳龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9535.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9549.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
沒有我覺得這邊還有一個地方那個趙薇我跟你們這裡是比較沒有共識的我是希望說我們詢問的對象不是外交部單純的調查而是我們詢問的問題是由于大雷大使他來做說明因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9551.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9563.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
很多東西他不只是牽涉到預算的問題他有霸凌的問題他有夫人是否有可能有這個做相關的其他霸凌的問題剛才在質詢的過程當中因為時間不夠所以其實實際上面我們是沒有說明完整的像在這裡我所收到的相關的這個基層的 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9573.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9573.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
行政調查有行政調查的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9598.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9619.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
有行政調查程序所以我們本委員會提了一個臨時提議案那外交部也允諾儘速調查出結果如果說我們又要進入到由我們主動來調查由我們來決定怎麼調查方向我個人認為是這個應該剛剛提到的也不是調查不是調查我沒有說要調查所以我說的就是剛才我們諮詢的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9620.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9638.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我們請外交部省佐把他納入他們的調查範圍內如果委員在口頭質詢沒有問到的其實今天還可以用書面來補上來那外交部當然就是看這些詢問的內容涉及公務的那趕快來做處理我覺得我們這個提案其實內容寫得算完整的兩邊意思都有涵蓋 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9639.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9641.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我們先說我們第一個我們第一個第一個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9671.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9685.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
就是以書面的部分書面我剛剛已經那個部長剛剛已經提到了本來其實說請於到時回應的部分對 儘速安排召回的部分我剛剛已經可以同意說那是接受書面質詢的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9687.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9692.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
對,因為朝會有時候在時程上面還有美國其實一個重要的地點然後要回來可能也不是那麼容易那就這個部分因為如果禁訴釐清對於剛剛有很多委員其實都關切的因為美國畢竟是一個非常重要的對我們來說是重要的國家又要大選了 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9706.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9706.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
所以書面的方式對 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9736.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9738.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這個提案就做文字修正然後這個部分是不是請外交部做一下文字修正我們可以在可以執行的範圍內那待會兒提供出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9769.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9771.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
現在宣讀第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9773.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9794.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
臨時提案第二案有關媒體爆料與大雷大使一事,要求外交部進行調查是否符合政府相關採購程序,並向社會大眾說明,以釐清該案爭議。提案人委員林楚英、沈伯陽、王定宇、陳冠廷等委員這一個案子委員有沒有要說明的部分?都表達過 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9803.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9812.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那第二案外交部這邊有沒有什麼其他的意見要表達那我們第二案就照照案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9838.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9854.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9879.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9880.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
議事人員宣讀議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9884.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9908.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
第一案之文字修正倒數第四行修正為請外交部建樹安排于大雷大使以書面方式對此次事件與相關公費之用情形品項明細諸位人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等等事作出調查報告並於兩週內送交立法院外交及國防委員會宣讀完畢其餘照原提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9910.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9926.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
一個小問題這樣變成余大雷自己調查自己他調查我也不要相信我的意思是說應該是請余大雷就此事做報告回覆外交部由外交部完成調查報告給我們剛才這個文字的修改你看一下那個內容變成余大雷調查自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9927.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9948.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
余大雷兩週完成調查報告余大雷是被調查對象現在我們不是要調查就是說他自己本身的部分他是在做說明或回覆而已把他分開多加一個授詞余大雷在多少時間內回覆外交部由外交部完成調查報告還付我們這邊這個我沒有問題沒有意見這個我沒有意見由外交部回覆沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9994.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10005.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10037.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10047.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10089.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10090.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10116.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10129.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10149.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10173.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
現在再重新宣讀修正之文字倒數第4行開始請外交部競速安排于大雷大使以書面方式﹐對此事事件與相關公費之用情形品項明細注用人員是否遭不當對待與使喚等事提出說明送交外交部 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10176.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10184.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
請外交部調查並提出報告與兩週內宋嬌立法院外交及國防委員會其餘同原始提案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10201.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10211.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10564.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10569.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
請大家回座我們現在繼續開會接下來請羅志強委員上台諮詢有請部長請部長部長請教一下你有公務車嗎有 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10590.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10617.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
你會用公務車在你的家人、太太、小孩去賞櫻花嗎?我們分隔兩地好像很難,在台中、台北如果有在一起的時候,你會不會讓你的公務車在你的家人或是爸爸媽媽、親戚朋友、太太、小孩,會不會在你賞櫻花?賞櫻花是沒有這個經驗會不會在他們去旅遊呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10619.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10646.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
也沒有這個經驗沒有這個經驗那你覺得我們的余大磊我們的大使在美國用公務車在泰坦去賞櫻花你覺得這是我們外交的慣例嗎是我們所有大使都是這樣做的嗎因為他本身有講有嘛因為在華府當然櫻花季節是一個什麼樣的背景那我們也會進一步來了解所以我要問就是說這是不是慣例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10647.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10658.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
應該不是慣例啦但是當然因為坐車齁其實在台灣已經比較有規範因為我們有時候就是會有一些非公務行程可能會有錢啦因為我還沒講到有錢啦我講的是家人 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10663.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10679.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我有公務車過,在總統府的時候當副部長也有公務車但至少我的做法或是那時候馬政府的要求基本上我的家人是從沒上過那個公務車一定是以公務為原則那我要問,我對目前我們余大使他說難道你沒坐過公務車嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10679.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10680.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
順便再一下,這是公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10689.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10703.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
順便再一下,難道沒有做過這種事嗎?順便把家人再一下。你是問我還是問他?我說這余大雷啊,他反問記者啊。你沒有坐過公務車嗎?順便把你送回家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10705.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10731.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
意思是順便家人送回家裡沒什麼了不起啦其實當然政務官在一些判斷上他自己要決定也要負責任那我們當然每一個人就是要遵守一條規範所以基本上我剛剛整理一下剛剛部長其實意思是說這也其實不是我們住外人員的慣例嘛 對不對帶家人去賞櫻花然後順便在一下是慣例嗎不是不是嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10732.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10755.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那為什麼我們的余大使會違反慣例呢這個由他來說明啦因為在華府那他公布這個使用為什麼會有這個形成所以我坦白跟部長講剛剛雖然我們的外交國防委員會是認為說不需要召回大使但是我其實是有另外不同的看法當然尊重外交國防委員會的決定啦我舉個例子喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10756.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10780.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
應該我這樣講我不知道部長認不認同因為我至少我以前在總府工作外交工作大概有三個重要的支柱啦外交部長您嘛 對不對然後一個是國安會秘書長啦另外一個就是駐美大使以我們外交工作最重要的就是這個鐵三角我不知道你認不認同工作職份上這三個角色都很重要非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10781.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10805.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以因此駐美大使他的所謂的代表性跟公信力是非常重要的我現在問一下就是說請問部長您應該是賴清德總統主義的外交部長對不對當然是啊不然他怎麼會找是他任命你的嘛對不對而且他是新總統上任你是陪他一起上任的嘛對不對是對我們的國安會秘書長吳釗燮也是他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10807.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10808.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10831.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10859.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這大概半年嘛我直接跟部長預言啦因為就我最近觀察賴清德總統他的用人模式我覺得這件事情有人講說陰謀論啦當然有些部分看起來曾經部長也認為有些跟事實不符嘛報導裡面對不對有這個不正確的地方啦但是也有正確的地方嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10861.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10882.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
對 就是數字有些有出入嘛 但是有些項目大家至少剛剛講賞櫻花跟看藍就正確了嘛 對不對不過我跟委員講齁 其實在駐外的大使齁 他的太太也兼助一部分外交的工作當然當然 沒關係但是這個行程啊 到底怎麼樣當然他有說明齁 不是公布的 但是是什麼情況因為我的預言還沒講完啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10884.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10905.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我覺得我們的大使今天會有這麼大的風波在後面當然我覺得有一些人事運作的過程在裡面依照賴清哲總統用的話半年內我覺得這大使恐怕就未必能保住了但我這預言你自己就放在心裡我們就看看半年內他會不會駐美大使其實是總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10907.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10907.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
謝謝委員執教 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10933.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10933.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
請林部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10956.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10956.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
台灣加入國際組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10971.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10998.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
那我們也知道其實這個我們江啟臣副院長其實在5月底的時候其實也率團代表韓國瑜院長那到日內瓦那參與這個或爭取參與WHA那其實這個水團裡面朝野的委員其實也在裡面那我們真的也給予這個這一團非常非常大的肯定因為也很多的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10999.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11023.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
可是我們今天也看到在6月21號的時候其實北京公佈了這個新的分裂國家的規定那其中這分裂國家的規定裡面也把推動台灣加入國際組織也納入了所謂分裂國家的規定裡面甚至是列為所謂的懲戒這個台獨份子 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11025.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11050.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
當然我們後來看到這個臺辦其實也說了他其實針對的只是極少數的臺獨分子那如果把這幾個綜合資訊兜起來的時候我們就有點替我們的江啟臣副院長擔心了看起來江副院長可能現在是北京新的認知下面的極少數的臺獨分子 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11051.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11076.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那可是接下來江副院長他還是肩負著很多國會外交的任務啊可是現在看到在新的分裂國家規定裡面有講到甚至要判死刑還可以缺席審判那部長我們有沒有對於我們江副院長接下來要扮演這麼多的國際外交的國會外交的任務上面有沒有什麼保護他的措施我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11079.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11099.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
請外管對我們國人尤其到國外這個涉及到就是針對是不是會中共用這個所謂台獨幾少數台獨分子因為他現在做了一個定義選擇性的所以都有這個風險我們也都要做好這個預防跟因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11100.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11120.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那我們是希望這個外交部其實針對接下來不管是國會外交上面其實尤其是當然我覺得像院長副院長動見觀瞻接下來他們還會再推動台灣很多加入國際組織的任務我相信我們的院長副院長也不會因此就這個放棄了這些工作可是這都是會被列入中共 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11121.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11133.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
幾少數臺獨分子甚至在懲戒的範疇裡面我們希望外交部能夠也可以給予他們跟國安單位可以給他們多一點的保護那接下來我是要問剛才其實有幾位委員其實有問到關於民主基金會的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11135.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11162.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我想其實民主基金會的問題我們從二月討論到現在其實現在大家都很清楚過去在黨一直說這個有沒有要卡韓院長的問題其實我們一直說從執政黨的角度從來都沒有所謂卡韓院長的選項那剛才有很多的委員問有沒有要卡什麼好像韓院長提出來的人選不然我們有要卡韓院長所提名的人選的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11163.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11173.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
沒有因為其實民主基金會是一個財團法人他有組織章程是所以都是一章程來辦事嘛就是尊重董事會對人事的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11176.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11203.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我認為因為你也是民主基金會的當然董事那你現在是副董事長那我要說我其實覺得我們當然沒有必要去卡任何潛在可能是執行長的人選我覺得這個我們態度是很清楚的但我想再一次的重申因為當然按照章程來說這個董事長會有提名權那現在董事長就是韓國瑜院長有提名權那當然董事會會有所謂的同意權是 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11204.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11220.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那這個同意權裡面我覺得很關鍵的事情我還要再說一次關於民主基金會的人事問題是一個責任政治的問題它不是一個政黨之間怎麼分贓的問題所以我們很希望在民主基金會的議題上面我們是用朝野合作來去思考這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11221.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11244.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
就像這個國會議長其實是當然董事但我們也遵循慣例所以國會議長現在是董事長那這部分我們給予非常非常大的尊重跟尊敬但同時我覺得一個重點我一直在強調關於民主基金會問題重點是他這個執行長的人選能不能夠貫徹總統的外交策略方針的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11245.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11274.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
而總統在我們國際上面也很清楚把台灣跟中國的定位其實我們也說得很清楚就是中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬我們真的不希望到時候其實執行長也要來備詢結果未來執行長在這邊備詢跟外交部長一起備詢的時候一個主張中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬另外一個主張九二共是一個中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11276.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11294.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這兩個主張假如互相漢革其實絕對會是對我們外交政策非常非常大的影響部長同意嗎是因為齁其實所謂民主機會是廣義的惡鬼外交那就是有一鬼外交嘛一鬼外交就是政府尤其外交部的外交嘛阿如果惡鬼外交跟一鬼外交打架的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11295.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11311.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那這不但沒有幫忙一軌外交而且雙頭馬車我沒有真的個人我是說如果如同剛剛委員所提的因為對於總統的外交政策因為他要負全責嘛那不支持的話那這個當然就委員上次也質詢過這個會是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11314.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11319.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
涉及到董事會他在行使同意權的時候很關切的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11344.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11345.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
現在這個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不立足其實是得到台灣主流社會的認可的 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11356.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11376.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以任何一個要來擔任執行長的人選我認為他都要能夠認同跟貫徹這個原則我覺得這是我們唯一唯一的至少是我個人唯一的要求因為委員是董事嘛所以在董事會也曾經表達過意見所以當然因為有這樣的一個我不是董事我不是董事我不是董事對有其他董事但我說我作為一個國會議員在外交國防委員會的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11377.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11390.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們覺得這是一個責任政治的問題因為這些所有的外交成果最後都還是總統要負責這是為什麼大家一直說執行長的人選要尊重總統最重要的原因這尊重總統不是因為只是總統比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11392.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11407.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
是因為總統要為外交政策負責我覺得這個原則希望外交部包括部長我們這邊要把握我真的不樂見看到到時候兩位一個部長一個執行長到這邊備詢的時候結果講出互相打架的話那真的大家不知道該怎麼辦這部分還是希望部長我們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11409.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11433.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
做出這樣的要求 而且我覺得這也是一個合理的要求以上好不好 這部長這部分部長我接下來有幾個事情是想要來跟部長講其實部長今天有講到跨境鎮壓的問題那我們之前這個其實對跨境鎮壓問題其實也很關注那相關的報告還是要請部長提供給我們那另外是之前在你上任之前在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11434.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11451.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
之前的質詢吳部長其實有答應過我們其實因為我們有旅居丹麥的國人被標記為中國公民的問題那我當時有請他給予說我們到底國人會有什麼生活的影響希望提交給我們報告但目前這個報告其實還沒有給我們第二個事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11452.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11472.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我在當時其實有請外交部去盤點哪些國家把我國拘留證標記為中國或無國籍的統計資料但我們現在收到外交部的資料但坦白說內容我們有點失望我們現在看到外交部提供的資料裡面只有12個國家將我國的拘留標記為中國或無國籍但就我們所知明明冰島 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11473.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11493.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
其實在2016的時候也把我們台灣人的居留證把它標記為中國籍可是在外交部上面的資料卻沒有看到冰島所以我們其實有一點懷疑現在這個外交部提供的盤點的資料是不是足夠的完整那在這一次我要跟部長報告我時間可能有限了 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11494.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11516.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
不然我們其實也要求外交部去盤點如果各國將我國的居留證標記為中國跟無國籍的時候可能對我們自己的國人會產生的生活影響可是我們看到很多都被外交部標記為無具體影響說實在我真的不相信我真的不相信假設別的國家把我們自己的僑民 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11518.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11543.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
標注為中國籍或者是無國籍對他的生活對他的情境毫無具體影響我真的不相信可是我們很多部分我們都看到你們說無具體影響所以我自己感覺外交部是不是對於這個問題這個嚴肅的問題不夠重視所以不只資料的盤點也包括這些相關的分析的資料都有未盡之處這部分還是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11544.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11570.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
林部長是不是可以再回去再督導一下把這件事情弄清楚因為這時候有很多我們自己在其他國家遇到類似問題的人他都跟我們反應覺得好像我們部分的住處在協助他們的時候不夠積極因為隨著中國就是對這個所謂境外跨境的鎮壓還有對於所謂的城市台獨分子他的這種所謂長臂的管轄等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11571.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11575.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
中國現在去壓迫這些國家把我們台灣人改成中國籍或無國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11591.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11603.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
這其實是一件非常重要的大事而且其實非常嚴重的影響到我們國人的權益對 因為它有風險對 但外交部現在都跟我說外交部現在報告都說沒有聽說國人生活受影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11605.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11622.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們要了解這個趨勢因為有可能會因為中共的施壓我想這部分就再請林部長再回去再督導一下好不好我希望能夠改善好不好這部分謝謝這個部分之前也有提過外交部如果通常沒有能力作為這樣對我們外交也是一個很大的打擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11624.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11625.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
韓國瑜院長提名人選在蔡政府時期擔任過臺灣民主基金會副執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11637.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11654.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這個部分我想他的背景資料也可以提供給大家好接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請麥玉珍麥玉珍麥玉珍委員不在請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在請陳培宇委員上台質詢好謝謝主席那有請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11673.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11692.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
委員 您過去擔任過無人鎖大使,負責數位新南向的業務,所以我相信部長您一定知道,在所謂的官方組織以外,其實有非常多的軟實力可以幫助台灣跟國際接軌,而且甚至是比較有可能突破所謂中國強大封鎖的武器,以上的論述您認同嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11692.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11692.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11694.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11706.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我今天就來跟部長分享兩個部分一個是我過去的工作專長就是文化出版在昨天有個好消息跟部長您分享首爾國際書展在昨天宣布台灣成為2025年首爾國際書展的主題國 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11710.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11735.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
主題國代表什麼意思?臺灣過往在全世界只有三次成為別的國家國際書展的主題國分別是07年在曼谷18年在曼谷12年在法國的安古蘭國際漫畫節也就是說臺灣一旦有機會成為所謂國際書展的主題國我們相對的文化外交這件事情的可能性就會變高以上部長您認同嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11736.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11741.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
非常認同那副總統前兩天才接見文化奧運國家隊,送他們出國副總統說經濟讓國家強大,文化讓國家偉大所以雖然書展的主管機關是文化部但是有沒有機會在明年首爾國際書展來到之前文化部有沒有機會跟外交部一起來討論我們如何讓首爾國際書展上的台灣主題國這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11760.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11776.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
他可以有文化面向更大的國家戰力來展示出來臺灣這個文化強﹑文化的部分部長你覺得有沒有機會外交部跟文化部來合作一定的因為我們總和外交部部都是外交部尤其書展這是一個文化軟實力 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11777.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11787.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
所以我們外交部還有外管會全力來參與好那這個部分我們也會請文化部積極的跟外交部一起來開會討論我們辦公室也會持續追蹤謝謝部長的承諾那接下來看一下運動外交的部分我屢次跟外交部討論運動外交是一個非常重要的部分連賴清德總統他接見劉伯鈞他也是這一屆的不分區立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11798.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11799.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
這兩天美國AIT在台協會才分享了一篇臉書就在昨天才分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11821.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11838.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
劉柏鈞他們找了五個有足球經驗的女孩．而且他們長期在台灣．把英文都準備好了．送到美國去跟八個不同國家的少女．透過運動交流．真正意義上達到了把運動作為國際語言．用運動做朋友好往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11838.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11856.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
另外法國在台協會在去年的10月法國在台協會的經費一樣跟劉伯鈞合辦了國際女孩日的活動在這個活動上連我自己都有去參加玩了非常多有意義的活動跟遊戲而裡面要談的就是巴黎奧運所以在這個活動上孩子們認識了法國認識了奧運認識了女孩在運動上的意義這是兩個故事到第三個故事是2019年 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11864.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11881.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
在畫面的最左邊有一個穿紫色T恤這個是我們現在的內政部長劉詩芳部長當年澳大利亞國家足球隊到台灣來參加活動的時候甚至他們促成跟高雄的球隊做交流這個也是一種很棒的運動外交而且是落地在台灣接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11882.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11903.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
接下來劉伯鈞他們的臺灣運動好事協會甚至在臺灣發起求聚求醫的捐募然後送到巴基斯坦去這也是一個很棒的運動外交實力為什麼要分享這麼多的案子我想要跟部長說的是還包含我手上有一本書我希望我可以送給部長但我不行因為我只有這一本 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11903.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11921.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
這本叫做是Title IX他們美國有一個法案叫TitleIX就是他們在國家相關預算上必須要讓男生跟女生的相關預算分配是平等的那這本書裡面介紹了九個非常重要的女性的故事其中有一個部長翻給你看是就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11924.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11940.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
臺灣的劉伯鈞被寫進美國國務院出版支持的計畫裡面出版品介紹劉伯鈞作為全世界第一個女性運動員裁判的故事部長分享了這麼多我想問一下部長我們外交部實質上還可以做更多哪些事情我們來看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11941.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11962.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
因為我時間有限是不是可以拜託部長如果您也支持所謂的運動外交有沒有機會由外交部組織在3個月內成立運動外交推動小組這裡面的小組除了外交部的成員跟相關的運動學者專家還有更多的民間實務工作者可不可以一起跟外交部討論來具體匡列預算並且嚴寧相關運動外交執行方案謝謝委員寶貴的意見我們要研究但是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11969.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11993.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
因為總統的政見也有要提高運動體育的這個不管它的這個部會的這個還有預算那運動是強調公平競爭參與還有和平尤其像奧運就是它會有外交的效益但是如果用運動外交 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11994.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12013.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
有時候因為外交我們在國際上的處境比較特別有時候運動的效果是最大的外交但是如果用外交的方式去推運動也可能會有政治上就是正反的啦所以怎麼樣去組成這個是在外交部還是說行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12013.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12027.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
還是跨部會我們來看研究一下聽起來就是部長您是支持但是你要提醒我的是另外一個事情如果用外交部的力量外交部的預算甚至是外交部表明就成立這個小組搞不好會受到更多的阻礙您是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12028.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12051.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
但是無論所大使我們也期待外交運動專長的人能夠再推動運動外交這也是一個方法但是這個小組怎麼樣籌組放在哪個層級然後哪些單位重點工作在哪裡我想我們外交部很願意來參與跟推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12051.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12063.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那是不是我們辦公室之後可以積極的找外交部來討論因為我想我們剛剛分享了這麼多案例我們其實有非常多民間專家學者好朋友實務上的工作者他們也許可以提供更具體的經驗讓外交部作為參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12065.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12088.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
但我們可能要跟行政院在就是說整體因為他涉及到跨部會尤其是很多事要教育部文化部還有未來要升格的體育部我猜部長您要說是怎樣所以我們的職權怎麼樣能夠分工合作那好如果要提報給行政院會是不是有機會在一個月內也跟我們相關的報告就是跟院會那邊討論進度跟可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12090.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12092.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才委員不在請邱志偉委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12133.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12157.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
請外交部林部長請林部長是謝謝委員好部長辛苦了這個駐美代表大概是屬於這個部長部長級的大使因為這個對美關係是我國對外關係中重中之重核心所以這個駐美代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12158.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12186.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
人選他的人格特質他的能力他在華府的影響力都要得到大家的肯定所以我長期觀察住民代表人選有幾項特質就是第一個要低調個人事情要低調當然為了這個台美關係的一定要是全力去推動或者捍衛也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12187.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12215.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那對私人的一定要都很低調做事情一定要很謹慎要很謹慎又洞見觀瞻不只是駐美大使或是駐美代表其他的這個住處的代表或是大使都要有這種特質所以我們在遴選這個外館的這個館長或者是大使的時候要特別注意他們的人格特質太高調不太適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12217.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12243.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以為什麼會有這些事件出來會有這些批評的聲音或質疑的聲音出來部長您的看法是怎麼樣每一個人都有他的風格當然對外交上面大家都知道外交官具備一些條件能夠代表國家但是對內怎麼去領導 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12247.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12271.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
讓同盟有士氣發揮團隊的戰力這個也是另外一個大使很重要的一個任務但我覺得納悶跟困惑是這個蕭副總統擔任駐美大使三年期間也沒什麼聽說這個關社要換新或者是要添購什麼物品 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12272.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12287.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
或者是這個公務車不當使用這種狀況甚至歷任的館長歷任的駐美代表好像也比較少這種聲音所以您了解的狀況是怎麼樣報告寫出來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12289.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12302.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我們初步都有就是不管電報啦或者是電話我們當然知道大概就是媒體報導的那個事情所以也做了一些說明可是因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12303.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12324.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
有可能是內部的同仁他有一些不滿的意見那把一些資料就是傳出去所以這個部分就涉及到外管內部的事情如果他說的是屬實那當然對這是沒有錯我們就事論事但是個人的部分我們當然誇大那當然這個你要以正視聽嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12325.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12351.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
所以這個駐美代表的這個地位他的重要性這個你也知道是屬於部長級的所以大家這個會用放大鏡來檢視所以一言一行都非常重要不管是公理或者私生活都非常的重要所以這個外交系統一定要知人善任因為這個在華府市前線中的前線 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12353.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12380.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
有前線的指揮官前線的將領被質疑你要怎麼樣領兵作戰你要怎麼衝鋒陷陣你要怎麼領導這個相關的聯合國相關組織都是駐美代表主要的任務嘛如果你個人的問題會困擾你會形成你工作上的障礙會形成你推動台美關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12381.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12390.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
的一些阻礙的話可能這個部長你要思考一下這個重要性不能以私害公啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12392.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12414.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
台美關係應該是你個人的事都曉得台美關係才是這個國家的這個大政它是國家利益之所在你國家利益你沒有去思考你應該每天在思考不是說你的床墊怎麼樣你的沙發怎樣你要每天去思考說怎麼樣是分分秒秒時時刻刻日日月月去推動這個精進台美關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12417.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12433.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以我是看到這個報導或相關的評論是有點擔心那麼重要的位置前面前方的將領領導同意也好你說這個是內部問題就代表領導同意有問題你如果前軍作戰你這個指揮官出現這種領導同意的問題那你將士怎麼扶你 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12448.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12463.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
團隊的力量怎麼樣去發揮如果團隊的力量沒辦法發揮 損盡的就是國家利益你講的是台美關係外交圈大概也會去變成一個新聞 大家就會去討論啊這個reputation很重要啊市長您的評論怎麼樣當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12473.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12490.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
怎麼樣去提高同仁工作的士氣發揮更大的團隊的戰力這個是任何一個主管尤其是在外管的大使他當然負完全的領導跟他的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12492.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12512.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那我覺得在對外上面我們就是在華埔的我們的代表處確實是發揮很好的功能在台美關係不斷的在提升中但是因為內部的有一些怎麼樣去激勵同仁的士氣然後能夠讓這些有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12514.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12529.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
不平的聲音也能夠妥善的來解決這也是領導者要做的你位置越高職位越重要你權力越大就要更謙卑就要像一個修行者一樣修行你知道嗎心要靜你如果心若這個不靜心若如果不正 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12545.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12561.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
協謀就入所以你位置越高權力越大你會更孤獨因為你就像一個修行者一樣每天砥礪自己你的所有的這個每天每天思念的思考的思慮的都是國家利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12562.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12592.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
是因為領導風格有一些雖然是願景領導有些行動領導有些是服務領導所以領導怎麼樣把幫忙的同仁都當作貴人來激勵士氣發揮這個更大的效果我對一大使沒有任何偏見我只是就事論事一個位置那麼重要就好像這個你組長是台美關係國家利益所以你要用修行者的態度去很謹慎的說每一句話做每一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12593.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12612.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
好謝謝謝謝邱委員謝謝謝謝部長接下來請張祺凱委員張祺凱張祺凱委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請洪孟凱洪孟凱洪孟凱委員不在請蘇巧惠蘇巧惠蘇巧惠委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12613.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12641.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由林益君委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者亦請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束散會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12642.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12643.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
主席 |