| IVOD_ID |
160439 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160439 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-3-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第8次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第8次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-22T11:37:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-22T11:53:45+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:57 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfcb33c81b5f4f3ff07ebb04eda2519475b01fba8380de05296603b2b90a16189008a6a2d20818995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉書彬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:37:48 - 11:53:45 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第8次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。二、4月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。三、4月22日下午2時15分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
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好 謝謝主席 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢 |
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32.834 |
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委員好再次恭喜 委員長好您是在1月113年的時候5月20號就宣誓就職的那你那時候在宣誓就職的時候你有談到於事已至成 恪遵國家的法令那就盡忠職守 如為事業願受最嚴厲的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
52.37 |
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我們繼續往下看今天我的談論的主題是涉及到說兩岸的定位在我國的憲法當中的關係在徵求條文當中認定的在前言當中是目前我國是在國家統一前的狀況 |
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68.539 |
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90.462 |
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那因此在十一條的時候呢在自由地區與大陸地區之間的這個人民關係呢是由兩岸人民關係條例來去約定因此有這樣子的台灣地區與大陸地區的兩岸人民關係的這個內容包括的是同樣在把第一條的這部分第二條就特地講定了在台灣地區跟大陸地區那我現在就是要問 |
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92.128 |
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120.418 |
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左院長你一個問題在於說根據憲法跟兩岸人民關係條例兩岸關係的現在狀況是答案一個是一國兩區還是兩國請問你的答案是依照憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面用字來講當然是兩個地區一個地區跟大陸地區但是我們如果對外在政治上 國際上把自己稱為地區那是非常不宜的 |
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120.947 |
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140.193 |
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好 那是這個名字 那是哪一個國呢我們是中華民國對 所以是中華民國的下面的大陸地區跟中國台灣地區嘛對 是這樣的 好的 這樣的情況之下您這樣講是沒有錯啦因為我們分對內跟對外但是我們面對的是共同的有一個鄰國在對面 他事實上是有一點 |
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140.993 |
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166.08 |
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有點特殊的這樣子對待我們的情況很特殊不只有一點很特殊非常特殊沒錯沒錯這也是的確是特殊的關係好那現在我們看看您是在4月15號的時候我們再往下一頁去看的時候可以看到的是您呢在4月15號的時候提到的是以針對的是劉思邦部長的這個的談論然後您提到是說正式來講是一個中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的關係這是確定的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
168.254 |
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194.405 |
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中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這是事實 現狀事實是 這樣的情況之下但是因為我們面對的是一個對岸他對我們有相關的一個需求他有一個要求那我們現在往下看齁在這個情況之下其實你剛才也說到你確確答對了齁就中華民國的一國兩區是這樣的一國兩區不過呢在這邊要跟大家講因為你剛才提到的是中華民國跟中華人民共和國可是在對岸聽起來的話可能就會出現到是兩國論的這個情形 |
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196.546 |
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216.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我現在是說我們要知恥知彼百戰百勝因此我就要跟大家講跟卓院長你說如果您的講話因為你有提到是中華民國跟中華人民共和國這個有兩國論的疑慮的情況之下他就會認為說你是有準備邁向法理台獨我們現在繼續往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
217.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
239.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
如果真的要面對到國際間的在對內你是一個法治國家的時候最重要的是我認為是說你可能要做修憲或者說申請違憲審查這部分的時候你可能還在法治上面是合理的這邊地方的時候我想詢問的是你有考慮過這個情況嗎提出修憲或者是說要做違憲的審查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
241.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
267.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
修憲的工程之浩大以及現在國會的結構應該很難甚至修憲之後還要修憲公投但是國會現在的工程就應該不簡單所以我是認為說我們在討論兩岸人民關係條例的時候甚至憲法的時候對內我們用地區這個法律的用語來談論沒有什麼大問題但是在對外我們絕對不能把自己列為一個地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
268.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
291.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們是一個國家一個主權獨立的國家這個國家叫做中華民國你要叫它中華民國台灣我們也歡迎都一樣的響亮非常好 謝謝你確認這部分那我只是跟你講如果真的法治要確認這個效果的話其實提出修憲或者是做釋憲維憲審查都是可行之照好 那我們現在進入到下一個議題這部分是更嚴重的部分在3月13號的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
293.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
319.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
因為賴總統在國安會會議後有這個談話就把對岸這個認定說是依照反滲透法認定他是一個定外敵對勢力對不對之後您在後來賴總統他也在同樣的時間之後他也提出了賴17條就是說因應到兩岸關係這部分敵對勢力滲透中共的這個滲透這部分他有這樣17條那我們繼續往下看的時候您在 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
320.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
344.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
隔一天喔 3月14號的時候您呢也呼應了愛總統說對岸是境外敵對勢力這樣的說法沒有錯 好 這就是事實那我們現在想問一個問題是請問您知道國安會議跟行政院會議有什麼差異嗎差異很大那請說行政院會議 行政院的院會啦院會我們每週都會固定舉行那國安會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
345.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
361.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
舉行的時間可能性次數都不是這樣的平凡但是很少正式舉行現在我們舉行的兩次也叫做國安高層會議好 但是你剛才還忘了說一個重要的國安會議呢 它事實上它事實上是總統的諮詢機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
364.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
392.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
總統的諮詢機構所以那行政院長 您作為行政院行政院作為國家最高的行政機關最高的決策單位就是行政院會議嘛行政院院會嘛 對吧但是您在同一天的這個情況之下齁請問一下 你們當 因為你3月14號你說了你呼應了總統說是境外敵對勢力是中國那這種情況之下 請問你3月13號這個地方這一天你有提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
394.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
行政院院會也針對境外事宜這邊有進行討論嗎3月13號對 禮拜四在行政院院會我們沒有這個議題啊你們沒有這個議題那你為什麼3月14號的時候您可以就提出來就是說呼應大統統說法這個是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
413.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
415.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為在國安高層會議當中總統做了指示指示裡面他就提到這是一個境外的敵對勢力 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
439.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
463.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是他是諮詢會議的性質總統已經親口講出來了17項的措施沒有錯 但是你知道你是行政院長你是最高行政機關你還是必須要經過行政院會議的決議不是這樣子的沒有沒有沒有我們有把17項措施放在院會裡面那您的部分就是所以才會聽到說引起後面所有的相關的問題那總統在元旦的公告也要經過行政院院會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
465.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
480.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我等一下說明,你事實上還包括立法院,甚至還有重要的政策決策,根據憲法雙十國慶的講話也要經過行政院院會嗎?沒有,那是因為你沒有呼應,那是總統講的話沒問題,可是您呼應,您是行政院院長您是最高行政機關,決策機關是在行政院會議,這確定吧?報告委員,總統元旦講話,雙十講話,我們都有回應,都有呼應 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
490.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
515.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但是這是重大決策如果只是一般宣示那不一樣因為你把的在憲法當中所說的是在統一之前的這個部分兩岸關係的部分你把它定做把中共認為是一個敵對勢力這個是我們再去往下看特別是在反滲透法這邊十二條裡面我們看到這個內容它事實上只有被規定被滲透的對象裡面的刑事跟行政處罰並沒有針對我們看下一頁它並沒有針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
520.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
544.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
總統他如何去認定他是一個另外敵對勢力這一部分的決策程序做一個規範那更重要的是呢這個是一個重大政策的改變所以他必須經過行政院會議甚至經過憲法他必須尊重立法院的重要決策的參與權那這邊事實上到立法院來做報告了那現在還要決議的這邊要根據到憲法第三條或者行政院職權行使法的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
545.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
562.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個部分 通通都要 重要事項有變更要做立法院的一個 要經過立法院的決議這種情況好 所以呢 導致賴總統他本身做 宣告對岸委員會進行決議的時候他的這個立法過程缺乏合法正當性好 這個地方總統經過國安高層會議諮詢的性質之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
566.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
587.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
總和了相關很多部會首長參加大家在那個會中做成的決議就是由總統對外來宣示的包括17項但是您呼籲但是我現在重點說我現在是針對您您是我國最高的行政首長但是行政院會議的決策的功能你忘記了你忽略了甚至沒有在 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
588.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
608.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
立法院上都經過我們重要的決策,四字520號就針對這不是跟哪一個國家締約、構合總統他在申請上次的時候,核四的停建就是造成一個四字解釋,四字520號就是要後來經過立法院的你行政院長到立法院做報告之後,立法院決議之後,後來核四要再重建了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
609.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
621.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以這個地方要重啟了這部分你要知道四次解釋已經更訂了重要角色立法院要參與好那這邊你如果不確定你可以再看四次的520號解釋好那另外我更重要的是要強調的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
623.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
642.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
少數的治理因為奈清德總統是百分之四十所產生的一個總統另外的部分現在行政院就帶著大家境外敵對勢力就帶著大家去走如果經過剛才立法院程序可能就沒問題可是現在只有百分之四十的民意卻是帶著大家因為這是民進黨的黨議 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
644.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
663.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
可是我們2300萬人的命運是由台灣人自己來決定的這個情況之下並不是說如果你沒有經過立法院的這樣一個決定實際上是缺乏這個程序的 實際上是很危險的更重要的是我們看到的是現在在選研中心 政大選研中心所說出的百分之超過60的人是 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
664.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
690.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
維持的是維持現狀或是維持現狀之後再看以後怎麼發展這是公告的事實你可以看到這樣的迷你的知識那您知道嗎在這種情況之下會造成的是一個你把對岸當作一個境外敵對勢力什麼效果呢就是會慢慢覺得說他根據我們現在看看下一頁這個情況之下我們為了知識之彼百戰百勝可以看到在下一頁你可以看到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
691.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
719.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
中共的國家反分裂法 您作為一個國家的行政的首長你要知道對方會有什麼反應他是說如果你從台灣從中國把它分裂出去的話呢會導致 或是會導致台灣從中國分裂出去的重大事故呢導致和平可能的這個同一性都完全消失的時候那你看和平同一性因為你把它視為進對岸 當作一個敵對勢力的時候就會考試它用非和平的方式去考試施政我覺得你不應該用 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
720.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
741.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
中國的反分裂國家法來框兩岸的互動事實上總統也是依據我們立法院通過的反滲透法的定義中國大陸所作所為對台的極限施壓步步精兵哪一項不是境外敵對勢力更何況這是符合這個反滲透法的定義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
741.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
742.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
怎麼可能 什麼黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
757.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
760.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
全世界都知道中共對台的嚴重威脅那你就透過法律程序讓它落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
779.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
789.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個是客觀事實舉世公認的對台威脅當然法律是一回事但是這個嚴重的威脅難道委員沒有感受到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
790.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
815.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
有威脅 我等一下就要問到陸委會主委有威脅 可是剛剛人家說原因是什麼如果你看到果然內密就是要看到前面的因的時候那是沒辦法去解決真正的問題的陸委會現在跟行政院的問題現在就是在這個情況我現在就跟大家講因為前面有敵對的勢力本來我們之前就有就有的他的圍繞這個環台都沒有問題可是更的清楚了他現在變成說做了演習 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
817.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
827.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我的意思是說我們真的要好好解決尤其是邱主委你本身是學者出身你本身陸委會我現在甚至跟大家講的是在這邊陸委會甚至我就現在問你了啦不是等一下 院長我要跟你講你這樣子把對岸視為一個敵對勢力的時候你的情況是你要走向的是緊張還有敵意耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
839.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
849.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我說過 和平有兩種一種是我們夠強 一種是我們投降我們絕對要讓自己的國防力量夠強強到讓普我之國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
850.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
856.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
境外敵對勢力不會來侵略我們如果委員如果委員現在還執迷在兩岸一家親那絕對不是台灣現狀跟主流 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
872.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
884.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
沒有這樣講 剛才主流是什麼 維持現狀維持現狀 你不要忘記維持現狀才是主流我剛才已經說了 民調呈現是60%是這樣子的您不要誤導我們沒有要從任何國家脫離出來是中華人民共和國從中華民國脫離出去的 不是嗎他是另外的 那是我們 他是他的問題我們現在主要 我們現在的問題就好了我們現在沒有要從中華民國脫離出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
897.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
911.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們就是中華民國主權獨立的國家現在這邊我們回到剛才最重要的 我想要問的是邱主委您作為陸委會的主委 你的主要工作是什麼 任務應該是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
912.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
935.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我想我們仍然持續推動這個對等尊嚴符合規範健康有序的交流哪怕是我們推出了17項因應國安的這些策略我們也是努力在維護台海我們是積極努力維護台海的現狀現在要改變台海現狀的是中共當局 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
948.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
949.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好 謝謝時間到了 |