| IVOD_ID |
160438 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160438 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-3-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第8次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第8次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-22T11:21:42+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-22T11:37:38+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfcb33c81b5f4f3f164c58d1da9caf6975b01fba8380de05296603b2b90a1618e877a6cfc589171d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:21:42 - 11:37:38 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第8次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。二、4月18日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。三、4月22日下午2時15分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝院長主席有請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
31.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
57.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
吳委好院長好上個月我們賴總統他有在國安高層會議做了一個宣稱說中國是境外敵對勢力因此行政院的各個部會應該要通力的來因應這個做法那我在這裡想要先講一下我們在六七十年代 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
58.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
75.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
六七十年前 那個時候我們都會念保密防諜 人人有責檢舉匪諜 保家衛國小心 匪諜就在你身邊大家都耳熟能詳 朗朗上口但是我們發現 匪諜一直都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
76.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
97.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
特別是我們看到滲透的情形越來越嚴重不僅僅滲透到政府機關也滲透到很多政治人物的身邊所以在這邊我也很擔心因為我們在立法院我們常常看到有很多的委員他會拿國台辦的稿子來質詢然後從來不檢討中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
101.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
122.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
反而是幫著中國去檢討美國日本那我認為這個就是癌細胞要拔除要不然會動搖國本所以我在這邊特別要來關心一下就是關於土地的問題因為對我們原住民來講土地就是我們的山林我們的家我們的生命那我在這邊要先提 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
122.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
144.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
其實這些年來全世界很多國家包括日本、韓國、美國、瑞士等等很多國家都會聽到中資買地的問題例如韓國的濟州島是不是變成了中國島那日本的北海道他們的軍事雷達站附近大量的被中資買土地甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
145.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
167.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
美國總統拜登他在去年還特別簽署了一個行政命令因為有一個中國公民他買下了重要軍事基地附近的土地迫使美國總統必須用行政命令來要求他售出為什麼因為無法可貫那我在想如果說台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
169.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
183.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
的機敏設施沒有這些周邊土地被中資滲透我覺得也很難讓人相信所以在這邊關於中資買地的問題其實常常也有人討論以財訊雜誌來講他在2014年的時候曾經說過 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
188.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
206.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
中國到處全世界買土地買企業買個資買人心無所不買可是他在去年出了一個經典重現他說十年了問題依然如此那我自己呢我們看到在花蓮因為那邊有很多原住民的土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
207.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
222.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
像是理想大地的案外案就引發說是不是傅坤祺他引中資買地甚至在去年嘉山基地那個地方有財團大量的收購附近的土地又或者說像我們的元寶地 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
223.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
244.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
富坤奇他讓中國團體有一個叫愛狗樂園 縣政府想要在那個地方做開發那我們到底有沒有防範的機制我們來看我們的兩岸人民關係條例有在第73條第一項有說就是這些大陸地區的人民法人團體如果他們要做投資是需要主管機關經濟部的許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
246.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
263.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那麼如果要買地呢有在第69條第一項他是要跟主管機關內政部要取得許可所以我現在先請教我們陸委會主委請問中國人是用人頭在台違法投資該不該罰報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
267.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
292.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們以投資而言 如果是用人頭投資的話依我們現行的這些罰則 它跟當事人一樣人頭也是要負刑責 還有罰還是一樣的好 謝謝所以這是在2019年增訂的第93條之一第一項 第一款 第二款 對不對要罰投資者 也要罰人頭那我再請教一下主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
293.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
322.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那中國人士如果用人頭在談違法買地,該不該罰?那長長,跟委員報告其實我們對於陸資來,或是路人、自然人來買我們的這些房地產、土地基本上我們的兩岸條例基本上是許可制的是嚴格許可所以沒有罰嘛,所以沒有罰好,那我請教一下土地主管機關內政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
324.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
325.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
請內政部備選請教內政部長如果中資用人頭購買土地算不算借民登記算 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
365.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那我們一般都是參考什麼呢最高法院在99年的一個民事判決也是目前法律定義的一個通說那簡單來講就是說我們兩個約定好名字登記在我身上但是我願意讓你來管理這個叫做借名登記那如果按照剛剛的一個民事判決的定義那請教一下內政部長中資如果用人頭買地算不算借名登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
366.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
381.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
算好那請問有效還是無效無效因為一個是中國人一個是台灣人所以他中國人的話他要按照剛剛陸委會主委所說的兩岸人民關係條例的相關規定來辦理好那部長所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
382.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
404.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這是你的見解那我們來看一下民事判決的見解也是這麼說只要不違反這種強制的禁止規定它是有效的喔但是我們來看看兩岸人民關係條例它到底有沒有禁止它這個地方它說一定要獲得許可才能夠取得土地所以問題就來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
406.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
422.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們看這個表格如果他不是禁止規定那就是表示屆民登記有效也就是說中國人可以不經許可就可以人頭夠地但是這個條文到底有什麼意義因為大家就去找人頭就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
423.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
440.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好 如果他是禁止規定那就是代表屆民登記是無效的但是剛才的兩岸人民關係條例的第69條我們有看到只有民事上無效他沒有行政法 沒有刑罰所以無論有效沒有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
441.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
469.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們都看到這就是現行的法規漏洞當然我相信我們大家都不歡迎也不允許中資用這種人頭掩護的方式來購買土地所以呢我在這邊的第一個訴求就是說既然中國人用人頭投資要罰那麼買地也應該要比照有罰則不能只是無效那這個部分院長您覺得如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
472.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
489.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
本來這個許可制就是一個強力的許可才可以等於它就是一個禁止的行為除非它有非常大的特例因為它相關的規定裡面它沒有行政處罰或是刑罰這部分我們應該檢討但是如果有遇到這樣的案子至少先確定它 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
491.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
518.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
致死就無效的一個購地行為是的那這個貿民頂替的這個貿民被貿營這個人頭他也沒有辦法在這個土地上執行他的任何權利好 謝謝院長喔願意就這個部分來討論修法那接下來我當然啊我原住民我更關心原保地的部分那到底中國人中資有沒有買原保地我特別跟內政部來索資那這個地方呢經過審查人沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
520.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
533.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
地也不是基民地區呢經過許可的共計有548件列管147件繼續列管401件好不管我現在問說那麼這些到底有沒有在原保地 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
535.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
560.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
回答我說均非屬原住民保留地我當然也知道啊為什麼因為我們根本無從得知雖然我們知道一定有但是我們無從得知那既然內政部這個部分我們沒有管道可以查那我想要來問一下袁明慧 請袁明慧時間暫停 我也跟你介意好了我們的議員就是三位 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
561.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
564.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
有沒有中國人士用人頭在台灣買元寶地的清查資料? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
583.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
612.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
院長我只是要讓您清楚的知道在防堵中資擺地特別是原住民保留地是一個很大的問題目前沒有資料無從查起也不知道到底有沒有涉及不法或國安問題所以我在這邊特別就是提醒像我剛剛提到的在我們這個嘉山基地的附近就是在去年兩大集團七間公司他對準嘉山基地中資 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
613.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
636.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那為什麼我說這個地方重不重要我們也知道中國解放軍每一次在軍演他常常去挑戰這個界線我們的嘉山基地那我們來看一下這個地圖嘉山基地就是紅線圈起來的那個部分然後七廳潭是靠海邊的部分你看它附近全部都是原住民保留地周邊有很多的原住民保留地 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
636.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
663.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那我特別去國防部所知因為加3滴劑只是其中一例啊結果我所知之後原鄉地區的軍事設備共有131處總計5600多公頃所以這個部分我們就很驚訝像前一陣子兩個月前媒體有揭露天啊原住民保留地的900萬購得的土地竟然可以設定2億的一個貸款 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
666.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
690.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以這個部分大家都說怎麼做到的還好媒體有揭露他說這個兩億不是設定給銀行是設定給開發公司那這個開發公司的背景一查有東莞的台商副會長有中國台氣聯的會長也有我們政治人物過去現長的子弟兵等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
691.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
706.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
如果沒有新聞爆料我們一般社會很難知道但是它不是個案我跟園民會的所知我就鎖幾個給院長聽聽看在五封鄉公告限制六萬可以擔保三千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
707.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
711.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
獅子鄉500萬可以擔保1億秀林鄉174萬可以擔保3688萬復興區75萬可以擔保3000萬海端鄉160萬可以擔保5000萬信義鄉82萬可以擔保1000萬仁愛鄉100萬可以擔保3000萬尖石鄉300萬可以擔保8000萬這些都只是冰山一角很可怕的是現在是集團式的收購他結合投資者 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
737.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
758.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
開發者 前客 政治人物他們到處到原鄉收購土地您可以看一下這個圖全國走到哪裡都有這個廣告大啦啦的廣告以林地 文獻他要用現金收購也把他的手機號碼都放上去還告訴大家不要私功德無量 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
759.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
779.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
到處全國搜刮土地這些是什麼一胎二胎現金吸引民間當部資產管理公司然後呢設定抵押之後再交易給人頭這樣的情形非常的嚴重我要給我們院長看一個數據學者也在呼籲學者已經告訴我們他推估 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
780.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
807.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們目前已經流失的私有元寶地是45.5%也就是說超過一半已經不是原住民在實際只用就像我剛剛講的什麼叫建民登記我們兩個人講好 地登記在我這邊實際的使用權在你那邊那其中多少是中資然後呢 是拿來做什麼用完全不得而知所以我在這邊我們想要不要防堵 有上一屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
808.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
835.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
行政院有把原保條例送進來有送進來原民會也做了很多的討論但是呢 最終宣告沒有獲得支持他有沒有防堵在第17條草案有寫私有原保等設定工作權、點權或抵押權給非原住民只能向政府機關、金融機構或原住民儲蓄戶住社來做設定抵押 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
836.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
864.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這至少是一個防堵的破口這個條例非常的重要所以呢我在這個地方要特別先謝謝院長就是我在110年透過總質詢幾度呢做了幾次禁法補償的一個質詢那一直到112年獲得陳建仁院長他有交代原民會來研議那也才113年雖然在風風雨雨之中呢我也看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
865.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
886.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們行政院對我們原保地的一個重視因為我們零務局零保署那邊的蔣府造林已經提高到六年六十萬如果我們沒有在我們的進法補償做對應我相信我們會有很大的一個山林災難那但是我在這邊就是非常的感謝我希望院長能夠責成 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
887.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
908.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們的相關部會要求內政部 原民會 陸委會 協同相關部會盤查中資 以人頭戶購買原保地的情形第二個我訴求希望能夠針對兩岸人民關係條例去修訂中資人頭買賣的一個罰則那第三個就是希望院長行政院支持原保條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
909.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
921.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
本會期繼續的來送立法院來審查台灣的每一塊土地都很重要我們都不希望落入境外的敵對勢力是不是請院長支持謝謝委員 我們一定支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
922.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
942.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
總之進來購買任何的土地除非它經過嚴格法定的程序原住民土地我們會請原民會、陸委會還有內政部共同來清查那關於原住民族保留地權利回復及管理利用條例既然以前送進來過那請主委再詳細的規劃如果能夠增加國安安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
952.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
953.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
謝謝吳立華委員的資訊,謝謝左院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝。 |