| IVOD_ID |
160412 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160412 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-21T10:26:26+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-21T10:41:08+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8771151c30a9b1e06d5119736a8127fe70fed3d90e8b9dd2e9e5184f6a42873d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王義川 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:26:26 - 10:41:08 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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今天國安會沒來嘛國安會什麼時候發公文到我們委員會沒有從來都沒有委員會的同仁委員會的主秘什麼時候收到國安會的公文要請假都沒有他從頭到尾都沒有請假我問一下可不可以問一下主秘有沒有收到公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
52.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
69.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
跟委員會報告我們沒有收到公文你們沒有收到公文到現在都沒收到公文原則上面就是通常公文都會有先送到召回辦公室那裡我說你們什麼時候收到國安會說他們不來的通知委員會我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
79.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
96.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們沒有收到公文我再問一下歷史上有沒有國安會的秘書長不是在審法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
97.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
113.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
被選那個王委員剛我們在一開始開會的時候就有提到這個點因為2013年的時候當時段宜康沒有我是問有沒有他們有沒有因為預算案跟這一個法律案之外的會議完為秘書長來立法院被選對 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
125.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
139.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那個時候是為了譴責金浦聰嘛金浦聰不該來嘛所以要譴責嘛我說在蘇雄甘武國安會秘書長非法律案跟這個預算審查的時候出現在立法院的備詢啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
146.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
159.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這可能還需要請醫事人員查一下好了我們現在先給醫事人員去查一下那之前那個顧立雄擔任那個的時候他是都會請假啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
160.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
189.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
就沒有來啊 這請假對 他會請假 那現在是我這邊跟那個議事人員這邊都沒有收到請假好 OK 好 所以這個請查一下歷史上有沒有國安會秘書長非法律案跟預算案的時候出現在立法院備詢這再麻煩議事人員尤其是金浦聰的任內有沒有來過 這第一個好 那我就開始我的這一個請這個調查局長跟法務部長 謝謝麻煩局長 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
196.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
219.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好,我先請教一下部長部長在你們的報告裡頭有提到這些關於這些國安的這些案件每年大概都兩位數,幾十件幾十件這樣包括這個國安法跟反滲透法我請問一下這些案子都是檢調主動偵辦還是相關單位的人發現可疑請你們幫忙辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
226.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
242.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個都有好 那最近這個比較熱門的那幾個案子是單位自己提出來還是你們發現宅辦都有 這個都有也都有 好 OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
243.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
263.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那我再請問這個調查局的局長請問被安全查核的人他知不知道他正在被查核知道必須要經過他的同意因為有很多查核的項目他同意簽了名以後我們才會去進行查核好 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
264.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
290.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那這個特殊查核,剛剛你們自己的報告也提到說因為就是出任或轉任出任、在任、調任那如果說,這個首長發現跟他相關的人,假設是他的司機他覺得他的司機可能洩密那他可不可以主動拜託、要求調查局幫我查 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
291.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
312.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
因為不在這個1328個植物列表裡面,我們是沒有這個法源的依據來查啦那這一個部長你認為,比如說部長你的司機啊你的司機啦,你來當部長有司機嘛,你的司機如果你認為你的司機怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
313.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
323.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
阿你想查你會怎麼處理因為司機不是公務員不是公務員所以他只是一個僱員而已所以這會不會是破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
324.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
343.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以這部分我們可以就要看立法看有沒有包括紀要人員及司機這邊要把他全部都列入那這個是可以考慮的可以討論啦可以討論那第二個調查局的報告裡頭有寫說因為有時候一開始你們先用現在是用植物嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
343.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
364.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那現在提到說可不可以用揭密的條件跟這個資訊的內容接觸到這些資訊的內容請問你們現在的想法就是對這些揭密的條件跟相關資訊內容的那個定義會設定在哪裡就是說有摸到這些資訊有看到這些資訊的人都應該被查核的那條線你們會畫在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
368.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
390.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那條線其實應該要看說他能夠接觸到什麼樣的機密的內容那像譬如說我舉個例子來講譬如說這個可能這個受查核的這個植物是必須要被查核可是他周邊的這些機要人員會經手過公文的這些人並沒有受到這個特殊查核這個時候這個範圍就應該要南瓜 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
393.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
415.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
南瓜進來當然也不能無限上綱所以這個事情我覺得要加速加速也許是社會上的討論說一下合理的我舉個例子譬如說我們行政院在信義路有一個信義官社那信義官社總有裡面要清潔的人員整個環境維護的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
420.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
440.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
假設這個部長就住在這個官社,我沒有說法和部長,因為我不知道住哪裡啦假設某部長啊,他可能也經常接觸這些所謂國安的資訊嘛那這個部長每天回來的時間啊,這個清潔人員啊、什麼人員、什麼人員門口什麼的他就每天記錄啊,欸這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
443.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
450.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我就簡單舉這種例子 社會比較容易認知嘛這個人都幾點回去 怎麼有人寄 怎麼一人付一支 寄一支我們要拿去給誰這個在你們現在的思考裡頭 這個該不該被討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
457.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
477.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我覺得這個是可以討論啦 但是就是說這樣子的面向是不是太廣了所以我說這個你們要去討論的時候就社會討論嘛有人覺得這樣太合理 說到最後大家都要去查這不合理但是就是說這一個一拉一條線我覺得這個速度要快一點 好不好 加速這一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
479.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
503.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那這一個 我只能講說這個相關的 比如境外敵對勢力可能接觸的可能接觸的這一個人員 國會助理是其中一種對吧 國會助理是其中一種那我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的不是只有國會助理我們在立法院裡頭 進進出出的非常多人他只要換個證 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
505.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
530.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他就進來了那有些是相關的職員有些都不是公務員那像這一條線我舉例子譬如說我們現在常收到立法院給我們的密件密件就是外面有一個信封然後裡面有一個加密的這個信封然後裡面就有一個公文書可能是相關的會議紀錄相關的這一個文件現在問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
533.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
559.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這些都是拿到我們辦公室以後沒有叫我們簽收的東西放的人就走了那這當然對立委來說我們就把它打開來看看完之後看完之後就關鍵了看完之後我可能就直接把它碎掉了因為他沒有叫我回收啦就給我之後他就走了嘛那我那一份啦我看完之後我就把它碎掉了這是一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
560.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
579.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
第二種我看完之後我就跟助理講說拿去碎掉那我的助理就看到了嘛第三種我也沒有講我就整包啊都拿去碎掉 都拿去回收欸 這個文就出去了國家對這件事情好像沒有很嚴格的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
581.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
598.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我覺得像我的助理就會看到喔我沒有自己睡助理只要喵一下他就看到那個文件是什麼大概啦可能是封面或者是第一頁什麼之類的這個國家該不該規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
600.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
619.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個部分如果是立法院內的一般的公務人員的話是目前是可以透過那個行政院人總的這個特查辦法把它納進來但是如果是立法委員的助理的話因為他不是公務人員所以在這個部分的話應該是要由立法院的組織法來授權來訂定那個執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
622.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
649.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
來作為執行的依據來規範這些參與協助立法院立法委員來從事這些職務運行的這些相關的助理是不是要把他納入查核我請問一下假設我覺得我辦公室有一個助理怪怪的譬如說最近每次都請客吃飯最近買一台新車然後常常就說他要出國假設我覺得他怪怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
650.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
675.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
阿我可不可以說局長你幫我查一下他我可以做這個動作嗎委員可以可是我們不能做委員可以什麼意思委員你可以請我們你可以主動提出來請我們啦但是我們沒有法源的依據我們沒辦法配合委員所以我可以請你幫我查我辦公室的A助理B助理C助理但是我會回覆委員說我們沒有執法的依據沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
676.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
696.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我可以提但是你們不會做那如果是假設部長要提然後希望你們查那他是個公務員然後部長提了請你們查當事人也知道他被查對不對如果是按照特查辦法的話當事人必須要簽署他同意我們才會進行查那這個你們的報告裡頭有提到財產 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
702.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
723.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們公務員有這個財產單位不明我們公職人員要財產申報那有時候這些公務員他職等並沒有那麼高所以他也不用申報可是他可能每天跟在部長的旁邊每天跟在誰的旁邊那這一些可能就是隨著部長進退他反正他也不是公務員那這些人的財產原則上是不用申報 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
725.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
747.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那你們做這個特殊查核的時候啊他的財產你們要查他的財產也要他同意對不對那他如果不同意呢現在所有經過特殊查核的都是當事人被查核人同意的他如果不同意的話我們就會告訴他的用人機關說這個人他不同意啊那要不要用的話就由用人機關來做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
749.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
769.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以如果有用人機關的首長或用人機關他們也不提報你們調查局是不會去查的就對了不會 我們是被動用人機關來查我們才會查除非接到檢舉檢舉那又是另外一個狀況 那個可能就進入司法調查 不是特殊查 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
771.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
777.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我最後問一下部長最近在查很多所謂的死亡連署偽造的連署法務部有沒有這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
785.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
809.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
引導 暗示 明示說只辦誰不辦誰部長有沒有下過這種命令這個是絕對沒有因為他這個都是民眾告發或中選會來告發的來偵辦的那這個有犯罪嫌疑當然講要原辦我們沒有什麼立場跟任何的一個考量純粹就是因為這是一個案件的一個就是有人去告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
810.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
834.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
有告發或者中選會 現在目前都是中選會來告或者民眾來告發來立案 來偵辦的這個沒有 不是我們沒有任何的一個考量所以這個就是我們就是採客觀公正 毋安毋忠的一個辦案的態度這個沒有任何的政治考量偵辦的方式啊 手法啦 手法啦 這一些齁 這個都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
835.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
858.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
檢察官負責的這個檢察官他自己去決定去研判嘛這個是個案這邊我們也不會去介入干涉去指導嘛這個個案是完全是由偵查組也就是檢察官他們整個一個偵辦的一個啊你給我布檢察官說喔你這樣用社會觀感不好啦不要這樣啦太粗魯啦還是怎麼樣你給我布說這個有的沒的還是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
860.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
876.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你就是檢察官 你的手法 你的手法 你要怎麼偵辦那是你針對個案 你掌握的訊息 怎麼樣怎麼樣 你去辦就完全是檢察官自己決定就對了對 這個是委員說的 就是目前的一個偵辦的一個現況OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 那在這邊跟那個委員會還有 |