| IVOD_ID |
16041 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16041 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-26T09:03:06+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-26T13:04:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:00:54 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685cf5366a7ae6bcaf75b00801740f9d8c2627684c85f64cd7bbe26c60548ffef9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。
【6月26日及27日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:03:06 - 13:04:00 |
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399.582 |
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委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1726.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1739.803 |
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出席委員已足法定人數。我們現在開會。請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄。立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議議事錄。時間113年6月13日星期四9時1分至10時57分。地點群選樓801會議室。出席委員盧先一等15人。列席委員侯孟凱等15人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1749.651 |
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1766.334 |
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就業服務法列席官員、勞動部部長何佩珊等相關人員、老人福利法列席官員、衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員、主席王兆吉委員喻敏報告事項、宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定、討論事項第一案及第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1767.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1789.916 |
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繼續審查委員林德夫等19人、委員楊瓊英等16人、委員馬文鈞等25人、委員屠春吉等17人、委員黃建斌等20人、委員呂玉玲等16人、委員盧憲義等17人、委員鄭正前等17人、委員王玉敏等17人分別擬據《就業服務法部分條文修正草案》等9案以及審查委員張家俊等30人、 |
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1790.737 |
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1805.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
委員王宏威等22人委員鄭天才等16人分別擬聚就業服務法第46條條文修正草案等3案本次會議經委員張家俊及鄭天才說明提案指去113年5月27日及29日第11屆第一會期本會第18次全體委員會議委員盧先一、蘇清泉、廖偉翔、鄭天才等4人委員林月琴、楊耀、黃秀芳等3人委員黃秀芳、劉建國等5人 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1819.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1837.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
分別提出《就業服務法》第46條條文修正動議委員林月琴等5人提出《就業服務法》第55條條文修正動議共4案。決議除1除委員屠春吉等17人擬拒《就業服務法》部分條文修正草案及委員李玉琳等16人擬拒《就業服務法》第46條及第55條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1841.232 |
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1846.336 |
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令則其繼續審查外,就業服務法第46條條文修正草案等10案,審查完均,條文及附帶決議均保留,並按已據審查報告提報院會討論,院會討論時由王兆吉委員欲明補充說明,須交黨團協商,二,保留之修正動議三案,三,保留之附帶決議三項,討論事項第三案, |
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1865.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1874.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
繼續審查委員徐以珍等22人委員馬文君等16人委員張家俊等20人國民黨黨團委員黃建豪等17人委員王玉敏等19人台灣民眾黨黨團分別拟據老人福利法條文修正草案等7案決議老人福利法條文修正草案等7案審查完均條文均保留並按拟據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論時由王兆吉委員玉敏補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1895.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1898.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處?如果沒有的話議事錄確定那有關於議事錄確認的這場會議現在散會接下來我們繼續召開本會與外交及國防委員會第1次的聯席會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1916.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1945.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
現在出席委員已足法定人數現在開會本次會議議程為審查勞動部函送駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄之中、英及印地文文本影本案首先介紹在場委員及列席官員在場有蘇清泉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1947.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1975.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
廖偉祥委員盧憲一委員陳昭芝委員林月琴委員王振旭委員我們介紹在場的官員勞動力發展署蔡孟良署長勞工保險局白立貞局長勞動基金運用局蘇玉清局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1976.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2002.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
勞動保險司陳美女施長勞動條件及就業平等司黃維琛施長勞動法務司傅惠芝施長外交部亞太司蘭夏里施長領事事務局簽證組柯孝宗組長法務部汪南君參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2006.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2022.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
衛福部社會保險司黃泰平檢任視察莊健康保險署張文溫組長疾病管制署何麗麗組長內政部移民署國際事務組張文秀組長好部長還沒到嗎還在接受媒體採訪嗎還是還沒有到現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2036.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2036.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
外交部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2050.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2071.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席、各位委員、各位先生女士有關大院審查勞動部函送的駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄外交部已經有提供書面的報告那在這邊簡單的口頭再報告一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2072.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2084.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因為印度近年來的東進政策所以近年來印度跟台灣的關係逐漸的在升溫而且在各個領域的合作都有往上成長的趨勢那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2087.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2102.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
今天在審查的這個備忘錄簽署的是在2月那麼我們也觀察到在2月之後呢印度總理莫迪有在他的這個social media上面加強了跟我們的互動包括了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2102.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2120.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
今年在出席利基電跟印度方面動土的典禮上有特別的提到台灣方面有領袖參加視訊觀禮另外在4月的時候也在X平台慰問我們的花蓮症災6月的時候也 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2122.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2136.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
複謝賴總統祝賀他勝選的貼文所以我們可以觀察到因為這樣子的趨勢再加上其他各領域的合作印度對於這個合作協定是非常的期待那麼外交部未來也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2137.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2166.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
本於職長配合我們主政機關繼續推動台印度雙方的各層級的合作以及推動這個今天要審查的這個備忘錄後續的相關工作以上報告完畢好謝謝外交部的一個報告那那個部長還沒到是不是那署長也要待會報告嗎好不好先請蔡署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2167.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2177.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
先代為報告好了因為等一下部長會來嘛 質詢的時候他會再回答我們先請那個勞動力發展署我們蔡孟良署長代為報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2180.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2203.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
主席各位委員首先勞動部非常感謝我們今天主席各位委員及各位女士先生針對我們今天委員會所審查駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄中英及印地文文本進行報告那進行委員也給予指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2204.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2228.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
其實我們臺灣受到高齡少子化的影響因為基層勞動力的不足我們的移工的主要來源國目前也僅止於像泰國、菲律賓、印尼跟越南的四個國家因為這樣的一個依存度的風險大院及僱主團體過去也長年也希望勞動部能夠積極會同外交部來開發新的移工來源國 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2229.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2253.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那印度因為不受到一個地緣政治的影響那同時也積極的來促進印度勞工能夠與我方來寫合作來台工作那事實上這樣的一個合作的意向也符合雙方的需求所以我們雙方在今年的2月16日也依照條約地解法的規定完成簽署的合作備忘錄那在4月2日經過行政院同意被查4月3日也送請大院來查照 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2254.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2276.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那臺印度的MOU總共全文是13條那其實這整個條文內容絕對是基於雙方的平等互惠的原則我們進行勞務合作那主要條文做以下的報告那主要在第二條裡面也就是大家外界所關切的我們在招募印度勞工來臺的職類跟名額完全是依照我方的需求而決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2277.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2303.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那在第8條部分我們就現有的招募制度意外我們也共同來推動直接聘僱計畫那未來透過直接聘僱的一個雙方各自設立專責的窗口以及選工制度的一個建制之下能夠達到這個職聘的一個計畫的推動那同時我們在第10條針對外界關切的就是失聯移工在台的一些收容遣返可能衍生的一些費用的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2304.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2318.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這一部分在印度方也未來會承擔這樣的一個清償的責任同時我們為了要讓整個臺印度的一個勞務合作促進社會對話能夠凝聚共識我們勞動部在113年3月1號跟5月2號那也經過兩次的專家團體的一個諮詢會議邀請了我們熟悉臺灣與印度的勞工事務的專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2329.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2341.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
主持團體、移工團體、仲介團體及經濟部等相關部會,共同針對印度移工的素質、語言、宗教文化、治安等議題相關意見,初步也達成相關共識,包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2345.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2365.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
因為印度勞工其實輸出到全世界各國整個數值是受到肯定那我們是其實可以參考其他國家的引進模式那提出雇主的需求跟條件那同時印度依照他的各方的一個產業發展跟人力素質也會協助來提供相關的招募跟培訓那至於相關的行業的開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2366.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2383.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
其實我們會審慎而且漸進式的一個處理那我們也採取相關的一些部分行業採小規模的示範方式來引進那同時多數的意見其實也認為因為臺灣我們在引進的移工多年所累積的制度之下除了優先推動職聘制度之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2384.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2408.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那未來我們為了要讓仲介引進這個管道也能夠避免外界對於仲介引進所產生的一個負面影響未來我們會有一些創新變革的一個做法能夠來讓社會各界能安心能夠透過評選來示範那移工團體當然他是主張針對職聘這個制度能夠優先來辦理我想這個部分我們未來再跟臺印度的一個雙邊的工作小組會議我們會列為優先的議題來做一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2410.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2434.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那未來臺印度的未來的四大重點工作理念這包含未來我們在小規模事辦尤其在選擇性的行業這個部分我想這個部分會以最大的共識來漸進的推動那另外對於移工具有一定的經驗而且有良好的素質甚至他有一些一定的語言能力包含英文的能力這個部分未來我們會優先的來考慮來做一個開放跟引進 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2435.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2459.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那同時我們也依照我們大院的期待跟民間團體的一個訴求我們在推動職併制度上面其實在我們的合作備忘錄其實已經明定未來雙方會成立單一窗口同時我們會建立更友善的一個選工制度那另外我們在國內的部分我們也會推動相關的職併服務的一個相關的精進做法那同時在這個未來在整個擴大這個優質的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2463.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2486.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
總結的一個選任部分其實我們會邀請相關的團體我們建立好的一個篩選機制我們讓好的總結能夠來承擔這樣的一個接受僱主委託的一個責任那同時我們要確保我們的社會安定其實印度移工來台之前我們的法律絕對會規定必須要有無染的法律證明就一般所謂的良民證那除此以外其實對他的素質就包含提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2487.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2516.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
相關的學經歷甚至他可能有海外或台商的工作經驗我們這個會把它列為優先的考量那同時來台之後我們會加強法令的一個講習跟訓練同時也會輔導雇主一個相關的友善的管理那對於印度移工來台之後為了要達到一個相關的一個適應其實我們現在在國內已經布建了相關的一個服務的系統包含我們對於這個現有的這個英語相關的語言的一個通譯人才庫我們會跟移民署來合作來擴充 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2516.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2542.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那同時在入國前後相關的權益講習以及來臺之後我們會實地的訪視然後瞭解他的一個適應的情況這我們都會持續來努力那最後我們勞動部也會持續來邀請社會各界相關的關切團體代表我們持續召開我們相關的諮詢會議我們希望說相關議題在國內達到共識之後我們在未來會跟印度透過工作小組會議來持續來討論來推動雙方的勞務合作以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2547.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2554.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好謝謝呃署長的報告那我們呃介紹我們勞動部部長和沛山部長也到現場謝謝部長好有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告那因為今天是呃由衛環委員會跟外交國防聯席哦按照之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2573.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2589.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
跟司法法制聯席的慣例這一次縮短大家詢答時間本會委員詢答時間5分鐘列席委員4分鐘不曉得委員有沒有意見這個是參照今年聯席的慣例縮短時間來委員可以表示意見沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2601.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2625.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
就大家盡量好不好準時結束,我們還是6加26加2,啊外備還值得辦那就原來都一模一樣,跟聯席都是一樣時間長度怎麼樣?規定委員會的三分鐘,三加一啦那本委員會呢?聯席 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2633.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2654.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好 那尊重委員本委員會5加2 外委員會3分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於三會前提出 預期不受理暫定10點30分休息5分鐘本次會議不處理臨時提案現在我們就請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員質詢麻煩何部長好 我們請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2666.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2692.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
部長早安加快速度部長我們和印度簽訂了這個MOU第8條我還是很重視這個部分因為在之前也跟您討論過應設職聘還有設立單一窗口及選工制度剛剛署長當然是有一些報告可是我想知道的是目前的進度在哪裡勞動部是否已經成立了單一窗口還有已經建立好這個選工機制了嗎或是還只是在規劃的這個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2695.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2718.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
因為我們強調我們是雙軌進行一方面用植品一方面我們也會用平選優質中介是點雙軌所以植片的部分說真的我們現在還在摸索中那麼我們也還在嘗試看是不是有可能這個推動新的植片的方式這是一個非常好機會那個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2720.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2737.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我以前就是拿資料給部長看過雙軌的結果是民意是雙軌實質是單軌就1%不到的這個職聘那部長為什麼我會問目前的進度因為上個月勞動部有舉行了一個引進勞工這個印度移工的諮詢會議那當中看到勞動部擬定的這個討論提綱我有點訝異啊老實說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2742.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2769.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
例如勞動部問請部長看這個投影片如果採政府對政府基礎基礎職聘我方雇主人力需求如何提供還有由誰處理那移工來台的這個生活適應及這個日常管理由誰處理雇主有協助的需求誰來處理那聘借期滿或因故需要返國的時候誰來處理就是好像都還在問這個非常原始的問題部長我們來假設如果都是透過這個仲介的話那上面這些問題是誰處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2771.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2781.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
國務委員報告,就是在這一次MOU的特色,裡面一條就是我們的第8條,因為印方他 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2781.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2783.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2803.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2823.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2824.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2848.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好我會來努力好嗎?如果那些問題是仲介做那當然那些剛剛我同樣的問題應該如果是政府來做的話那當然就是政府或勞動部要多擔待嘛是是那第二個問題是更有意思啊如果要參照韓國的執聘制度就是在你們這個那個討論提綱那我方助派這個印度相關辦理人力經費用什麼方式經營或或派駐督導那由誰支援等等這個感覺還是非常原始的問題欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2849.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2849.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
韓國的公團的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2866.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2888.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
對,產業公團的模式其實他們是韓國的產業界跟韓國政府合作一起推動行政法人的一個這樣的單位其實我還是強調說因為好不容易有新的來源國那你要用一個大家全世界認為是比較理想有競爭力的制度就是此期實業這是一個非常好的時機那個現在部長你看其實勞動部是有能力做這個居然的居然 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2893.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2922.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
在諮詢會議上有移工團體有指出來韓國的執聘制度順利關鍵就是有一個SPAS的這個系統簡單來說就是把各個部門串起來就是串起來那台灣就差這個系統而已我也要邀請未來如果通過以後我想我必須邀請其他的部會一起來做這個事情這個系統就是我自己有了解包括選工、面試跟簽證這三個那台灣一定有能力這樣處理所以勞動部應該就還沒有進行任何動作的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2923.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2944.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我跟委員報告我必須等MOU經大院通過以後我們才能往下走部長我還在在強調因為這種做法可以大大簡化執聘的這個程序跟門檻那我們才有競爭力嘛是不是因為明年就要進來啦明年這個未必未必但是你至少要在之前準備好嘛當然所以我覺得下半年就是一個很重要的這個時間啦是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2947.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2971.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那部長這個上個月諮詢會還有一個結論就是說優先開放在製造業那部長因為我們知道你還有其他的問題要處理比如包括取消80歲老人的這個申請看護免80量表這個是當時您說那個開口破口會是53萬左右那恐怕排擠的重症家庭照顧那您認為如果印度移工也能夠補足這個可能的缺口嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2972.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2995.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你會不會考慮說家庭看護也可能開放、優先開放印度移工?你有思考過嗎?因為巴士量表這個問題已經存在很久了。可是這應該是兩個問題,抱歉。因為印度移工它適不適合當家庭看護工這也是一個問題。這要經過一段長時期的摸索跟這一個一初期印度移工這個部分會以製造業為主啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2996.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2998.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
但是至於是否會是江林康復工的來源我覺得這有待...是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3014.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3040.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
如果你認為這樣會排擠這個效應或是有人力缺口那其實本黨的這個科主席他競選總統的時候他有提過是不是可能放寬家庭幫傭的申請門檻因為有些民眾就是擔心他家裡的老人長者他是他還沒有到需要照顧看顧的程度但是因為年紀大家裡總是有需要人幫忙打理這個就是他需要的不是看護而是一個家庭幫傭但是請我想部長你可能熟悉這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3041.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3069.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3069.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3069.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
麻煩何部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3100.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3117.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
委員好部長早現在事實上在服務業工作的青年佔了75%在青年畢業後三年內從事服務業的比例還是佔了大概70%整體來看的話佔整個服務業裡面大概是15% |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3124.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3147.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以看起來這是青年的很重要的工作機會所以服務業事實上比較不贊成來開放移工否則就跟我們的青年在搶工作可是服務業裡邊事實上還包含旅宿業那現在旅宿業看這新聞就知道就勞動部要去開放可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3147.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3165.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
學者們事實上比較持反對的意見。為什麼呢?因為勞動部你現在最近事實上研擬修正留用外國中階技術人員的產業別當中要開放我們的觀光旅宿業的聘僱僑外生。所以我想問的是你這個政策考量的是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3166.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3184.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
你跟我原報告齁當然其實確實服務業裡面青年占大多數而且低薪這是一個最嚴重的問題所以我一直強調缺工不能等於低薪那麼所謂開放這一個橋外生當房務員這個標題其實是有點過度的解讀啦因為是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3189.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3218.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我在這個開放僑外生的這個制度裡面其實我們尊重的是配合的打開然後還有包括未來工作許可開放讓他申請工作許可我們是著眼於把勞動力留下來然後呢關於中階技術人員開放做防務員這是觀光署的一個提案那麼報給國防會當然我們也樂觀其成當然如果因為這東西是這樣他是有薪資上限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3218.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3219.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
為什麼?如果各種服務業未來是不是會不會先比照這樣的辦理? |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3241.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3267.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
篡寬僑外生,最後還是期待未來開放移工。如果剛剛講低薪的話,你應該是從今年如果都在做這行業應該是去提振薪水而不是用移工來取代他啦。我覺得這要去考慮。疫情過後的確我們看到勞動部的數據就足記的那個人力需求的預估大概整個產業都有需求,特別是 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3268.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3294.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們的製造業是最大需求可是想要問的是就是說我們的在MOU裏邊臺印的MOU裏邊第二條的協議也是總額跟名額都由臺方決定那入境人數多寡臺灣有主導權所以問一下勞動部這邊未來會是針對於我們的製造業的底下哪一個行業優先來開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3296.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3310.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
是電信呢?還是食品加工?還是...我一看電信或食品加工都不是製造,他們算服務業的,對。只就是製造業應該我們經過諮詢會議,像工種這樣的團體,他們是有表達意願的啦。可是我們必須等MOU通過之後,我們要再去訪問這個產業僱主的意見啦。然後讓他們確定到底是哪一個業別是最需要的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3324.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3330.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
才能夠開始進行那再來問是你先進來的大概因為說到小規模事辦請問先進來的規模人數大概多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3334.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3338.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
對於僱主的優先資格,你如何評選?而且提出來申請的僱主如何知道自己具有優先性? |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3358.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3377.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這個就是要看產業的需求還有包括他的管理能力就是我們這個要去確認的所以勞動部是不是可以在事辦開始之前應該事先明確的把事辦行業公佈人數、雇主的資格講清楚所以不要讓油鹽來取代事實否則現在謠言滿天飛那再來整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3382.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3397.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
台灣事實上是移工的引進國可是難民會發生行蹤不明、醫療、勞資爭議、安置的這些需求那過去來源國當然會基於他保護他的國民的立場在態度上都會積極協助那過去在越南對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3398.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3419.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
台灣近內的移工比較少提供支持相較之下印尼跟菲律賓在台灣都設有移工臨時的安置中心那移工的整個如果來源國放手的話所有風險就會台灣承擔所以在這次MOU的臺英MOU文件裏邊在第7條的社會保險負擔跟第10條的行蹤不明的移工收容的負擔上 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3420.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3435.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
印度方都說他會負責最終的擔保責任所以想問說那有沒有比較具體的整個實際服務做法有沒有具體的規劃是這個部分就是印方對我方相當友善跟積極的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3436.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3460.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我們這次MOU會簽成跟印方非常積極有關係所以我們也很感謝印方對我們的友好那因為他們也在這裡承諾他們願意來負責萬一要發生所謂的無證無證移工的狀況那針對於未來行方不明的勞動部現在在研擬外國仲介保護機制要求外國仲介負擔遣返收容醫療費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3462.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3486.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那要建立停權的機制,這個政策可不可以三個月內可以正式提出嗎?我們盡量來做。好,在勞動部這邊。那為了降低移工的負債造成刑方不明的問題,那勞動部接著應該要規範外國仲介公司仲介費合理收費,部長同意嗎?收費 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3489.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3512.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這是來源國的問題可能會比較難去規範對方我們只能建議他在我們兩邊雙邊工作會議的時候建議印方這樣子對最後大概還是要問的就是說整個台印MOU第10條本來就要達成配合推動職聘的這個協議然後現在移工團體也都倡議要學習 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3513.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3515.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
委員我們的MOU現在是雙軌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3537.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3537.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
陳經輝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3569.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3571.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
主席 各位官員早 我想請何部長 謝謝好 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3579.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3604.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好部長去年非典型工作者破了80萬人那所謂的這個臨時性或人力派遣的工作者佔了快60人所以我們這樣子非典型的勞工不斷的攀升除了固定的法令宣導還有勞檢勞動部有想要增加什麼措施嗎您是指外送員的這樣子的權益嗎對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3609.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3613.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
政府機關應用勞務承攬參考原則是,你們發布一個政府機關勞動承攬參考原則就是說我們的中央主管機關如果利用這些非典型人力來做事就要定期來稽查人力的廠商要守法所以呢勞動部發動這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3636.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3663.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
發布這件事不久以後其實我們這個委員會多位委員包括我就有提案要求說主管的勞動部還有工程會人事總處等等政府內不分大小的單位都要有效的宣導請問目前做的進度如何了那麼我們規劃7月下旬辦研習營然後有三個部會會共同協助採購機關關於勞務採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3666.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3691.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
契約依承懶參考原則明定各項勞動權益還有8月也會針對中央機關辦理這一個法制宣導活動那也是三個部會一起所以我們會從明年度的總預算看得出來政府要帶頭來做改善並且你可以承諾說一半以上的機關在明年就可以做到內部至少一次的不定期集合嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3693.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3693.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
謝謝委員支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3709.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3725.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
再來呢因為您近期內也有說要找經濟部合作會利用審查國內的上市上櫃投資案件要求應先派遣瞭解派遣跟勞務承攬的廠商有沒有手法作為採購的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3727.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3752.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
好還說呢跟經濟部也要來履約期間針對派遣員工的勞動條件合法與否來調查稽查更要在公司的年報還有永續報告書中來揭露因為你有發布這樣子的新聞所以許多的公司也很想知道這個細節因為影響他們上市上櫃的條件所以您會不會去修到經濟部主管的公司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3754.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3776.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
不可能欸因為委員抱歉公司法是經濟部主管發動方一定要是經濟部我們只能進所以您還是維持在宣導嗎我只能盡量的呼籲然後希望那個企業能夠善盡社會責任這樣子所以其實不會有白紙黑字的管理依據出來事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3778.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3803.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
因為針對上市櫃企業也非我能夠行政命令去對它做是我們只能盡量來呼籲主導永續發展的主要權責是金管會金管會去年也開始做了上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案所以會去推出一個修正版本的上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案2.0所以你這樣子落實把 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3804.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3827.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
派遣員工、非典型員工的勞動條件合法依據的調查、稽查結果您會希望跟經濟部還有金管會溝通如何的落實在他們的永續報告書中嗎?我們現在正在努力希望ESG納入勞權指標這個我們確實也希望能夠得到金管會跟經濟部的支持所以您規劃的時間點大約是? |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3830.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3840.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們有跟他們展開平台會議希望能夠大家趕快來協商這樣子好那我們也會再持續關心這樣子的進度謝謝委員我勞動部5月2號有召開諮詢會說共識印度移工人力優先剛有提到了跟很多委員講是製造業的小規模事辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3850.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3866.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
可是我們都知道製造業的工作性質多屬於做多少算多少的承攬性質所以開放製造業的印度移工也想要請教部長有沒有可能再製造更多我國非典型就業的人口呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3868.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3888.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
應該不至於欸,因為這個我們的非典就業人口跟我們年輕勞工目前的對,這個跟這個應該是兩件事情所以您覺得印度移工小規模是不會排擠到本國人的應該不至於,對應該不會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3890.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3913.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
只是補充我要跟委員報告我們會希望的推動臺印MOU引進印度移工是希望為臺灣的勞動力增加來源而且我們現在勞動力缺乏嘛那大家都喊缺工嘛那麼主要是少子化的問題我們需要增加新的勞動力而且是優質的新的勞動力這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3915.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3933.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
這個剛剛很多委員也有關心不過都還沒有很仔細的詢問到您您的備忘錄內容呢第8條明文講到說雙軌制嘛雙邊同意推動直接聘僱計畫而且其實你們是說在雙方的法律允許下擴大直接聘僱計畫還會設立單一窗口的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3935.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3948.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
選工機制而且第二行還有寫到說優先的適用續聘計畫所以您是要真的擴大職聘還是只是應用在移工三年期滿的續聘上 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3950.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3967.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
你的這個雙軌的執聘是想要第一階段就做還是你要續聘的時候才要做?這個意思是說真的實務上現在只能先從續聘計畫先做了那因為事實上跟委員報告執聘制度是很困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3968.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3996.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3996.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4020.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4020.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4050.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4050.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4074.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那麼他們的其實好的優質的仲介在我們勞動部都是都有列檔案的這都是有可以透過評選然後來好您的這個諮詢會有提到說印度的私人引薦的社群也很也很有可能有這個亂象所以本席也在這邊提醒您可能未來這個管理會需要是是是謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4078.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4081.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。謝主席,有請我們何部長。請何部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4102.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4125.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
委員好部長好部長早這幾天喔剛過8點就已經標破30度然後呢到9點之後就過35度請問部長今天上班的時候有沒有覺得很熱真的蠻熱的相信委員也是這樣的感覺部長能夠感同身受真的很熱喔事實上去年就已經是有史以來最熱的夏天喔但是今年根據這個歐盟氣候監測服務機構的評估有86% |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4130.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4156.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
的機率會超過去年的紀錄,變成最熱的夏天。那同時在台灣呢,又有這樣子的一個現象,就是都市熱島效應。造成,我們可以看到這個紅色的地方,北北基塔喔,雖然行政區上沒有合併,可是卻變成夏日的高溫帶,變成一片。在這個雙重夾擊之下,無論是長期在戶外工作的員工,或是坐在辦公室上班的這些通勤族喔,都可以感受到炎炎夏日。 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4157.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4168.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那而且我看未來只會越來越嚴重喔所以我想要請問對於這個高溫所可能對於勞工產生的傷害部長有沒有什麼樣的應對措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4170.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4190.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
跟委員報告我們這個治安署在這方面本來已經有法規的修正我請這個副署長來回答一下好不好好跟委員報告在這個部分因為在安全衛生的部分我們在法規現在已經有規定在一個戶外工作者他在僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4190.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4218.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
對於他的這個健康的一個保護措施裡面包括說他要有一個遮蔭或是說要現場要灑水降溫等等一些措施還有一些健康管理的一些措施這目前的治安法的附屬法規已經有明定我知道說得很好制度方面我大概都可以理解勞工從事在這個外從事工作發生中暑還有熱疾病這些職業疾病是不是可以罰款對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4219.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4234.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
對嘛,可以罰款,罰到15萬喔。但是我想要問的就是說這樣的罰款真的對僱主有督導的效果嗎?因為罰款基本上是需要等到職業疾病發生的時候才可以處罰,對不對?而且對於勞工已經產生的傷害有彌補的效果嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4237.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4254.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
跟委員報告除了說勞檢以外其實在目前的宣導跟輔導面我們也是積極的展開好那部長我要告訴你根據去年有一個消暑商機跟夏天上工的調查指出有93%的勞工贊同政府規劃高溫假的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4254.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4280.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那資方中也有47%的公司也贊成實施高溫假那此外還有高達96%的戶外工作者支持每月補貼2300塊的這個高溫津貼所以部長其實無論是高溫假或是高溫津貼啦都有這麼高的民意支持我在想勞動部何時可以研議出一個可行的方案可不可以讓本席在一個月或是本院一個月有一個明確的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4282.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4302.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
委員高溫假這個概念因為是針對戶外工作者他也不是針對全面的勞動者所以他可能有他的特定性你容許給我一些時間我們來處理看看我們要來研究看看因為這針對部分的特定的工作者是不是用一個假 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4304.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4319.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這似乎是值得考慮是,所以我說有沒有可行的方案我想要跟部長說因為你今天還是負責是勞動部不是經濟部和環境部我想現在也不可能說叫你去改變什麼大環境這麼強人所難可是過去其實也曾有這個高溫價的議題勞動部卻是說以再研議的方式帶過 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4323.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4344.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
但我看面對現在極端氣候的來臨今年夏天搞不好會突破40度對於這樣的這樣來講很多勞工都是非常危險最近也看到那個包含去賣家朝聖死了幾千人真的這是非常危險的事情所以要請勞動部長對於勞工能不能多體諒一點對於增加高溫價的可行性或是相關的這個部分可以做出一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4345.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4367.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我想應該是要在職安的相關法規裡面去強化我請職安署來檢討好不好就是要讓僱主能夠意識到這問題的嚴重性我告訴你喔因為我們之前其實也有問過就是之前也有看過勞動部被問過那無外乎你們大概就兩種說法一種就是國際上沒有先例二來就是說美國也沒有高溫價 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4368.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4386.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
可是我要告訴你現在已經不太一樣了因為許多中東國家包含這個伊朗、伊拉克這幾年都有放高溫架的先例那美國呢也發現一個數據就是說這三年來高溫死亡人數是過去15年的三倍而且每年高溫死亡的人數高於什麼颱風、洪水、龍捲風等天災的總和 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4389.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4407.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
以加州為首也開始著手要制定高溫準則跟高溫價的法令制定所以就算美國的情況而言現在他也將勞工的勞動程度分為輕、中、重度三個不同的等級然後做出高溫工作準則根據這個準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4408.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4426.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
他們稱中度的工作者體感溫度低於攝氏38度以下環境時,重度的工作者在氣溫攝氏30度左右,每小時工作45分鐘,必須休息15分鐘。而且也不少必須在高溫下戶外工作的企業簽訂合約的時候都附帶高溫的條款。 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4428.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4457.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以總結來說他國的經驗其實也都可以借鏡那就算高溫價不能夠一步到位我們也是希望相關的規則是不是有更細緻調整和精進的空間其實以上比較這幾個國內外的高溫價都是希望我們部長可以為我們勞工再多著想一點並且督促僱主能夠共情讓勞工跟僱主之間有個共同的這個溝通的機制跟橋樑這部分是是是我來檢討職安的相關法規好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4458.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4486.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好那這個稿文架的部分是不是可以給我一個期限大概是什麼樣可以給一個方向我覺得是從職安職業安全衛生職安的職安衛的法規這邊來著手會比較有效啦比較能立竿見影那你如果用架的概念喔所以我剛剛有說勞工也未必同意喔是我剛剛有說我沒有一定限制你要用什麼方式所以你去檢討之後可不可以給本席一個好好我會給您一個報告再一個月左右可以嗎好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4487.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4514.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
另外回到今天的主題上次的許部長有說就大家媒體問他說有沒有簽這個MOU就他當下說不會簽結果隔天就簽了為何我想許部長當時我想委員這外交工作MOU其實也是外交工作的一部分都有他的不得不的有時候可能善意的隱瞞所以他隱瞞了是不是是善意的隱瞞 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4515.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4530.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們外交工作真的蠻困難的所以你說他是善意的隱瞞就對了因為其實他當初是說可能跟外交部溝通上有落差但是我想要說的是請問新任的我們的何部長是不是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4531.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4538.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
委員我從來沒有善意隱瞞你們的事情所以我說可不可以請我們的何部長當然當然我對委員會都是都會盡我所能那上次也有問過就是說你們說網路上有造謠說引進10萬印度移工是假訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4552.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4561.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那我想要請問一下這次你們預估這樣子簽訂之後我們大概會有多少的印度移工或是你們預估有什麼想法有多少量 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4562.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4584.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我覺得我們剛開始真的是會非常非常小規模我剛才有講過先從一千人開始先從一千人開始那預估有沒有時程預估說有沒有時程甚至這個都要大概一年一年多以後才看得到了所以一年多以後會先一千人然後預計的可能兩三年之後如果辦的還OK就擴大一萬人兩萬人這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4585.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4607.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
當然要逐步進行啊因為我們過去也有失敗的案例像以前蒙古對我等一下就要跟你提這個就失敗了因為你要牽涉到對方來這邊能不能適應好很好所以回到今天的主題我也想要說無論是這個勞動部補充或是這個移工引進國的多樣化的前提之下我們當然也是算是樂觀其成謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4608.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4622.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
但是對於印度對於台灣來說我們彼此的文化差異很大那也有很多的適應的空間所以想要請教部長有沒有相關的溝通機制可以讓主顧之間都可以瞭解彼此生活習慣跟文化和宗教的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4623.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4642.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
當然這是很重要的而且事前可能就要先瞭解我們本來就有諮詢會議把僱主團體跟這個移工團體還有包括我們各方的利益代表都找來本席認為這部分是很重要因為僱主方面應該也要多加的宣傳彼此尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4643.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4667.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
因為當初蒙古移工就是來台灣的困境就是包含那個語言困難嘛對台灣的氣候跟飲食適應不良所以導致開放後的第五年就直接歸零喔所以這個部分你要提醒部長和想要問部長就是說我們在外籍移工引進的這些硬體條件其實無論是時程啦開放程度或是薪資上都很難比得過現在的日韓、香港、新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4668.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4683.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
但大家都說我們臺灣最美的風景是人嘛所以如果我們能夠更多的人文關懷或是開放的形容是不是才更有機會可以長長久久的跟這個反而是我們的優勢啦因為我們臺灣對移工的溫暖對移工的這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4686.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4686.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
最後一題 馬上 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4701.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4718.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
目前我們勞動部部長還有我們長照的駐司長看護義工的政策有沒有問題日前副司長有說衛福部已經著手規劃要將外籍看護納為長照的照服員請問司長這新制度明年部長或是司長明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4718.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4741.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那是移工團體的訴求那衛福部應該似乎他只是回答中階就是所謂的中階技術人力就是我最就是你知道中階這個東西嗎對中階的中階的技術人力能夠轉造復原可以來研究這個事情所以可以研究你們還沒有決定會不會做對不對沒有沒有我們雙方雙邊都還沒討論了那是移工團體的訴求啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4744.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4746.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
謝謝主席有請何部長好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4774.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4798.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
大家好部長早大家都對於開放印度移工很期待當然也有一些擔心的部分尤其是民眾剛剛很多委員也針對於未來開放印度移工以後碰到一些問題也都分別請教了部長還有署長等等這邊還是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4800.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4820.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
讓民眾的疑問可以有機會讓剛剛署長已經有回答一部分不過部長可不可以再能夠讓我們知道一些民眾疑問的地方這些疑問未來有沒有可能變成一個懶人包什麼時候這個懶人包可以出來來回答這個民眾的疑問那就包括說 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4822.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4840.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
產業的類別會有哪一些?這個時程會是怎麼樣?在MOU裡面也有提到這個職品這是一個雙軌之下的其中一項或者是這是一個主要的原則還有很重要的就是外交部也有現場也有關聯在這一邊我們外國簽證的審核量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4844.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4844.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4856.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4884.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
要承接這麼大的量在工作上需不需要還有一些人力上的考量還有協助移工適應的準備工作應該要如何準備能夠讓民眾也知道也能夠很放心的當我們這些印度移工進到臺灣以後對於我們需要的一些缺工的部分可以得到改善那這部分各位部長在利用時間跟大家說明一下也讓民眾的疑問可以得到解惑 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4884.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4899.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
是,謝謝委員當然您提到的這些問題都是未來執行上的每一項很重要的細節那我要跟委員報告是現在其實我們在勞發署就已經有這個專區了有一個專區有一個網站上有這個專區跟懶人包那麼當然您問的這些問題當然一個頁別 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4908.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4929.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我剛剛講過他初期是會自招業為主而且初期是非常小規模的大概一千人左右而已最快也要一年以後你才會看得到這樣子最快喔這是最快的因為雙邊如果工作會議都順利的話那是不是職聘的原則呢我要說這邊的職聘跟我們現在的傳統的職聘是不一樣的所以這是一個新的嘗試我們也還在摸索中 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4937.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4952.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個部分我們會雙軌,一定是職聘跟優質仲介雙軌的。然後我們外管簽證什麼能量,我相信初期如果很小規模應該OK的啦,未來也一定是有控制下的量啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4953.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4982.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
未來就算有大量一定也是有控制下的量可是這個前提是台灣都很歡迎印度的移工所以我們只能從小規模的開始試試看而已那萬一如果國人都不接受那也未必能走得下去喔對那還有協助移工適應的準備工作這當然我們責無旁貸現在我們所有的移工來源國我們都有建置這樣的適應的這樣子的機制來給所有的移工來源國也不是只有針對印度 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4984.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5004.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我相信如果能夠順利把這個部分處理好的話相對對於國人要引進印度移工也好或者是所有移工也好我們都會很放心請他們在台灣協助來讓我們的勞動力可以更增強 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5005.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5029.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
當然他們對進到台灣以後很多的醫療權益還是得要幫助他們當他們有一些困難或者是需要的時候都可以得到好的幫忙那臺大其實他們也有一個新南向的醫療中心不知道這個部長對這方面有沒有一些訊息或瞭解如何能夠透過勞動部跟相關的醫療院所 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5030.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5049.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
對於這些移工的醫療相關的權益讓他們有知道更多的資源在使用上也可以更方便事實上這個不是只有針對移工而已只要在臺灣新南向的這些民眾有需要的時候都可以善用這樣的資源這樣的平台來協助照顧他們的醫療需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5049.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5072.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
是謝謝委員其實您真的是提到一個非常重要的問題我們的移工遍佈全國那麼其實全國也許各醫療院所都曾經收容過都曾經收過移工病患對所以其實未來我們跟衛福部也許我們醫療院所這邊我們也應該建置多餘的這個服務這個是有必要去推廣的對是可能不是只有臺大 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5074.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5095.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
應該是所有的醫院可能我們都有需要對謝謝委員提醒這非常好的建議那就麻煩跟這個勞動部跟我們的衛福部中間會有更好的連結尤其是在醫療相關的部分其實之前也有一個問題曾經請教過阿春部長就是我們的黑戶寶寶的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5097.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5113.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
這個部分我們也知道在111年的時候有無一而少無一而少就是黑戶寶寶他們在台灣在安置上面是有一些補償費用也不算少當然也不算多在111年是 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5114.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5129.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
一千一百多萬那去年是八百多萬那這個財源其實還是一個很大的困擾因為這些無餘寶寶他們需要被安置的時候呢事實上是需要費用財源要怎麼來 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5130.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5147.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
之前也有跟阿村部長討論過這些失聯移工就醫的跟育兒的費用有沒有可能在未來不管是在跟中印之間或是其他的移工來源國有沒有辦法去透過外國的仲介 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5147.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5147.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5165.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5187.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5188.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5188.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5215.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5218.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
接下來我們請邱政軍委員質詢好主席好我們請部長好請何部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5234.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5234.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
您是指哪個? |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5234.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5235.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
有分行業嗎?還是整體缺工?沒有沒有,整體整體 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5266.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5292.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個整體缺工委員這個因為24萬左右啦如果主計總署的估計是這樣的我們是按主計總署這樣來看我覺得那個數字好像不對啦待會我們回去再查因為我剛剛看到是100多萬應該沒有到這樣缺工人數當中有多少可以用移工聘用的來補的這個部分有多少您說以移工來補嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5295.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5315.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我們現在移工已經有76萬人那您是指未來在缺工裡面有多少要用移工來補?那當然我們現在是盡量看產業的需求還有包括我們家庭看護這邊的需求盡量來滿足有多少是要用印度移工來補? |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5316.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5338.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
委員其實印度移工還不在我們補足這個所謂缺工的這樣的因為印度移工這個是剛開始而已它只是增加一個來源因為我們現在是這樣就是說我們的這個缺工的問題實在是非常嚴重剛剛我也聽到部長在其他委員諮詢的時候有提到就是說我們第一步是從一千人開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5339.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5366.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們也希望這個部分能夠盡快來彌補我們國內人工不足的部分我剛剛也聽到部長講了很多的問題也有可能說印度勞工適應的問題等等當然這些都是考慮的因素我們也是要求就是說也希望說我們剛剛也提到我們台灣本地的我們自己台灣的勞工看看有沒有什麼可以轉職來補助這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5370.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5395.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
當然,我很重要的,上完以後最重要的一個就是推動婦女跟中高齡的就業啦。那麼這個部分我們預估有56萬的勞動力可以開發出來。所以其實如果,我們一定是優先處理這邊的。那麼移工還是一個補充。對,因為我們本,其實我們臺灣的勞工也其實有很多,很多家庭是需要工作讓他們來維持生計的部分。是,是,是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5396.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5405.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我聽到就是說你們當初突襲式的簽約我稱為突襲式那您說是有這個叫善意的謊言 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5406.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5435.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
不是謊言啦不是謊言我要更正喔我不是說謊言那是善意的欺騙善意的隱瞞因為外交工作真的很難許部長當時很辛苦我比較不懂因為這個問題是不在我今天的問題裡面我是剛剛在台下聽到的就是說這個為什麼要有善意的欺騙不要講了善意的隱瞞好了善意的隱瞞好了那為什麼要隱瞞 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5436.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5456.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我就說因為外交工作真的很辛苦我覺得外交跟移工好像沒有很大的影響會喔會喔委員其實我要跟您報告難道又是共產黨搞的有地緣政治的因素啊他會管到我們移工嗎又是習近平的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5458.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5460.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
主要委員跟您報告主要這都是政府對政府的談判我再請問您就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5488.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5507.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們現在就是說我們當時我們有聽你們講說跟社會的對話就是3月1號跟5月2號兩次嘛看起來都是跟我們的協會、工會在討論那我們在諮詢專家意見的時候我們跟社會的溝通是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5509.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5526.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這就是我們跟社會溝通的平台。那麼經過這個溝通其實也很有效的瞭解說社會的需求啦那跟委員報告其實所有的雇主團體或者是工協會或者是產業界各方面他們都認為一定要雙軌啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5529.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5550.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我們現在移工的這個是預計要職聘跟仲介那職聘的部分我看到有很大的問題因為這個申請的流程非常繁瑣我看到我們說要建置職聘印度勞工的資訊的系統那這是要另外開發一個系統還是在原來的職聘系統裡面職聘的網頁裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5552.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5573.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
就跟委員報告 這個所謂我們台藝MOU裡面這一個職聘喔 它是一個新的啦 它是一個新的制度所以說要普遍開發嘛 對不對 對 那是從 那都 這個恐怕都還要再估算 因為也得等這個MOU通過以後我們再來嘗試所以你們現在就是只有想法 目前只是想到這樣還沒有開始要準備實施就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5575.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5603.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
對,因為我們這個必須要往下走的時候跟印度有工作層級會議的時候我們還要考慮印方的配合度印方其實對這個MOU非常的支持而且非常積極我知道你們很積極就是我們看到我現在是擔心執聘的這個流程非常繁瑣沒錯我們也看到您在年底之前要辦三場6月29的高雄7月13的台北7月27的苗栗 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5603.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5620.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
是那我看到你們的網頁點閱次數非常的少到昨天為止到臺北高雄場的是634臺北場的是844那苗栗的比較熱鬧一點因為苗栗1313就是我的意思是說現在委員的選區比較關心這個事情很多人還不曉得那我希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5625.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5643.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這部分我們部裡面能夠對外再擴大宣傳讓大家能多瞭解一下因為職聘是很好又讓大家不要被仲介都另外的剝削掉了委員我們也會挑選優質的仲介來做評選你的客觀條件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5647.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5647.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5667.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5677.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
好 謝謝邱政軍委員接下來等一下那個黃秀芳委員質詢結束休息5分鐘接下來我們請蘇清泉委員質詢好 謝謝主席這時間沒什麼 講也沒什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5700.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5701.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
政府要引進印度的移工的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5722.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5732.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
是因為他們比較優秀還是我們要做多國的補充人力?這個是什麼原因?我們竊工的漏洞我們竊工現在到底多少人? |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5734.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5734.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以近來只要是在職場上 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5757.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5758.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
現在先以製造業為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5777.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5796.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
只能先以製造業為主我在中研院有碰過印度的博士後的研究員在中研院我們中研院裡面的研究員還不少喔印度的喔是那薪資也不錯啦我覺得他們也蠻優秀蠻敬業的我的蔣英文講的還不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5798.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5806.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
好,所以主計處的總副總副是欠人,欠二十幾萬人阿市政府可能比這個還要多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5808.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5829.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我相信委員的瞭解可能還比我 也許比我更深刻的待遇好 這個第一個問題 那第二個問題外媒報導印度 那麼大喔377萬平方公里的印度的面積 裡面有住了15億人口那外媒報導就是印度每15分鐘就有一個性侵 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5831.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5854.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
這個是很可怕的全世界對印度的觀念跟印象就是這樣而且他們是這個是蠻嚴重那你有沒有擔心他們進來如果人數多會不會造成台灣的治安會變差那你如何因應外界的質疑那有沒有辦法解決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5855.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5871.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
委員第一個印度他們當然本土的治安率也許有他們的狀況這我們就是客觀尊重對方這是他們對方的問題那可是當然來到我們這裡我們第一個一定確保我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5873.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5892.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
會以這個先跟我們國情接近的人為移工為主啦比如說他有英語能力好別他一定程度的技術能力等等的那麼這個其實還有包括他有良民證好等等這方面的檢查一定都必備的然後呢進來之後還會有一定程度的規範跟講習 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5894.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5914.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
然後必須要讓他瞭解台灣的法制是什麼樣子然後我們跟移民署之間其實也已經開始展開關於引進印度移工的一些所以會挑比較文明的幾個省他們有省,他們也是算省還是邦你們要派人過去看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5916.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5929.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
他們在上課的時候也要甚至不排除我們的人過去跟他們上個課,台灣的治安啊台灣的那個,因為只要印度人在那裡說,他們也不在那裡說什麼。是,對,一定要先這樣。因為這個MOU簽了 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5933.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5956.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們黨團這邊有互待修正是互待協議要嘛就是退回要嘛就是修正要嘛就是互待協議可是委員我跟您報告那個一條一地解法第十條如果被修正了我只能被退回耶這個要拜託拜託委員能夠支持我把我們黨團的那個念給你聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5960.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5969.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
要求勞動部指定或設立專責機構推動政府與政府直接聘僱並擬定績效指標保障移工勞動條件推動移工直接聘任之成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5986.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6010.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
你是指附帶決議嗎?附帶決議這是OK的,謝謝第三個問題缺工是台灣最大的問題少子化是一個原因但是台灣本地勞工的薪資是偏低的所以你要一直往上加你不要讓人家覺得一直引進外國的移工然後我們這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6011.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6029.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我們的勞工的薪資有沒有明顯的提升這樣百姓跟我們鄉親父老是不會支持的那你對本國勞工的今年度的基本薪資的又要開始打架了 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6030.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6051.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
謝謝委員 下午我才要開第一次諮詢會 我跟委員報告喔 那個諮詢會就是當年您通過的這個最低工資法裡面的一個機制啦 啊它就是以前的工作小組 其實那只是一個溝通會議 它不會去決定條幅 也不會去決定任何事情 所以只是我跟委員的見面會而已 而且我也是新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6052.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6055.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這一次的印度要進來他們的匯款回去我們看一下地下匯兌 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6070.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6098.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
銀行匯兌金額最高7萬塊手續費500塊時間要二到三天地下匯兌沒有上限手續費相對便宜時間不用一天效率好但是非法風險高我看我們屏東那邊很多漁工他們要在上班時間去銀行匯兌有他的困難我們的銀行三天半就結束了 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6099.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6120.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
他們還在上班。每星期我們的銀行都休息。所以他們很多人都用地下揮隊。那地下揮隊的危險性是很高。曾經有越南的漁工被騙了60萬。所以,你們這心心口口的錢,印度來的你們要用什麼系統?你有沒有跟金管會要有什麼想法? |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6121.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6150.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
是各位報告儘管會其實在2021年就有外籍移工小額會對辦法啦阿儘管會現在有許可4家做小額會對啦不過當然這個可能不曉得能不能完全滿足移工是一個問題我們也會再來檢視然後進一步擴大合法推動這種有利方便移工會對的這樣子的機制你去人群辦時間沒辦法迎合對可是現在有手機4家用APP |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6151.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6178.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
對,他用APP就可以轉耶對,那4家都是APP的他算是應該是新創吧?Fintech的新創的沙盒實驗的那種業者有4家只是說可能也許推廣率是不是不夠?你再去了解一下好不好?實際的情況他跟金管會好好的討論討論因為現在碰到的就是這樣然後他們都用地下會隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6179.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6179.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
建檢會用誰負擔? |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6196.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6220.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
他們進來的健檢然後印度人他們有沒有受出的疾病我是一個臨床醫師像現在東南亞進來的寄生蟲什麼什麼怕肺炎肺炎還蠻常碰到的那印度這邊有沒有什麼特殊的那他的費用是誰出因為如果是政府跟政府直接評估的話誰要付錢健檢費嗎健檢費是雙方合意也是要雙方談 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6224.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6239.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你現在是政府要自己搞,怎麼會跟雙方合議?是已經有僱主了,所以僱主這邊的,僱主來付還是你們編預算?沒有,就是要看僱主,如果願意付當然僱主來付吧,最好吧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6240.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6262.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
對,不過這個東西就是要經過工作層級會議我覺得啦,藉著這一次跟印度的MOU非常的盛壯也把以前我們跟東南亞、印尼這些國家的那個業績好好地檢視一次好好地檢視一下,因為這樣的話不要太大的差別而且有一些以前的缺失 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6263.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6265.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
謝謝主席有請何部長請何部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6294.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6321.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
部長好部長台灣在1992年修法通過救福法然後我們開放外籍勞工之後呢到目前為止我們只有4個移工的這個來源國如果比較起這個像新加坡日本韓國我們真的是少了很多像新加坡的話他有11國日本有15國韓國他有17國所以呢如果說我們碰到某一個這個國家他減少這個原額或者是說停止移工來 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6323.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6338.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
來臺的話對臺灣的產業是造成很大的一個衝擊所以要增加來源國的這數量我在想這是一個勢在必行那再來也要補足現在目前勞動力的這個缺口也可以減少來源國不足的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6339.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6354.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那剛剛我有聽了很多這個委員提了很多問題其實都是大家共同關心的這個議題那比如說提到文化衝突治安跟女性的權益還有臺灣勞工的權益等等那這些都是我們要特別去注意的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6355.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6384.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
印度是一個多種族、多宗教、多語言的一個國家那過去我在馬來西亞出生長大馬來西亞有三大族群其中一個呢就是印度我們的印度同胞那我從小也曾經跟他們一起長大所以他們其實在我的印象當中是一個非常聰明然後又友善的一個民族所以如果說一提到印度族群就你要提到治安跟女性權益什麼什麼之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6385.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6412.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我是覺得說這可能對他們全體來講是不公平我在想我們的行政單位這部分可能要去適宜因為畢竟台灣對印度族群是非常非常的陌生那再來還有一點就是我們真的要對這個族群有更多的瞭解他不是單純就只有回教或是佛教之類的他們的宗教真的真的非常的複雜所以他們進來之後我們真的要做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6413.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6432.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
對這個多元族群跟文化的這個尊重我想這個行政單位真是要做一點功課下一點功夫免得大家進來之後呢因為產生一些誤解而產生一些社會的衝突我想這個部分是我們要來做避免的OK那再來還有一點剛剛很多委員都提到同樣的這個問題比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6435.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6452.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我們有提到說什麼時候要試辦我們要開放哪些這個產業那還有直接聘僱計畫等等我在想剛剛部長都已經有說了一些說明可是我在想好像有些部分真的還沒有準備好我的感覺部長您剛剛的這說法我是覺得說有些東西我們說我們簽的MOU可是很多細節到目前為止我的感覺都還沒有一個雛形出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6462.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6467.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那當然所有委員的這個問題其實也希望說既然我們已經簽了MOU我們已經要讓這些印度移工要進來了我們應該要做更多更多的這個準備我想這是一定要的那當然我本來也準備了相同的這個問題我想因為剛剛很多委員都已經有提問了所以我就把這個問題稍微做一些省略 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6491.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6501.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
昨天我們勞動署有發了一個新聞就是說留住僑外生的人力所以我們要開放從事 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6503.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6506.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
李素燁、鍾潔技術的工作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6517.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6539.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
好,那這幾個月其實我一直都有跟喬萬生在做一些對話那當然我們有歸類出了幾大項可能需要我們勞動部跟相關的單位像國防會也好、全國會也好、經濟部也好我們可能要一起來做很像的一些溝通我們居然要把人給留住不是只是口號 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6540.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6566.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我們要怎麼做?這些問題要怎麼解決?喬惠森的訴求我們要怎麼樣來做回應?那我們大概是歸類為四大類喬惠森他的訴求我們說夠病啦那我們既然想把人留住你就勢必要在制度上面要做一些開放比如說我們現在目前限制從事15類專門技術性的工作喬惠森只能做這15類那目前我們看到的就是昨天昨天我們勞發署說 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6568.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6569.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
其實其他部會也有提出要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6596.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6598.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
例如呢?對,比如說有沒有其他的想法? |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6599.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6600.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
國發同意,我們就來配合。其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6629.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6649.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這並不是就是說像喬惠生願不願意從事旅輸業這也要尊重他們那只是提供一個機會多一個機會而已對然後呢這個喬惠生他的薪水一定他有一定薪資程度以上啦所以這也不可能說去拉低國人的薪資這樣子他不是移工啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6650.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6659.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
他不是我們那種低層次的移工嘛所以他是人才我們想辦法要把他留下來那到底我們評點是會不會整個被取消?會嗎?我們會拿掉這個評點是嗎?不是取消而是把他的門檻打開民額沒有限制了現在是不是?我們也是還沒開放嗎?還沒還沒這個要再修法你們的時程呢?時程民額打開8月底前修辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6675.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6678.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
然後呢,年底前,對,營業額這個限制我們也會檢討取消嗎?我們也會檢討取消。對,對,這會要推動修法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6696.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6705.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
對,因為這才是一個長久的把喬外森這個人才留下來的工作許可的方式工作許可他們在申請的時候有些企業界的老闆他會覺得流程非常的複雜就覺得這麼複雜我就不要用喬外森這個部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6724.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6728.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那個我們就是來檢討我們一定來檢討這個是這個問題如果要修法的話就要來檢討這個制度因為時間的關係像第4點求學期間打工受限畢業求職期間沒有辦法打工這個是一直很大的一個訴求所以這部分的話我在想第4點 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6741.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6768.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
第4點是不是我們要來演繹一下就是說他們畢業之後有兩年的秘職時間我們是不是也可以讓他有所謂的打工我想這部分你還蠻重要我們在香港很多國家其實都會這樣比如說講留住人才可是在還沒有找到正職以前我們是不是要來協助他們讓他們可以適度的打工這部分會不開放嗎我來跟國發來商量研究看看因為這部分我知道在這裡是個很大的事情其實這是個跨部會平台要討論的事情OK好以上謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6770.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6775.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好謝謝接下來我們請洪森翰委員支持請何部長請部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6796.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6816.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我們今天在討論台灣跟印度簽的這個關於勞務移工的MOU那當然應該是基於其實台灣跟印度我們兩國其實這幾年越來越我想包括互相對待的友善跟信任的增加所簽署的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6818.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6837.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
但確實這段時間關於這個MOU引起的社會很多的討論我認為其中一個很大的原因是因為雖然我們兩國的政府有平凡的互動但台灣社會整體來說其實對於印度真的不是非常熟悉所以容易會有很多的投射或者是誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6839.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6857.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
但這次引進印度各界的聲音其實我想確實非常多那但我自己認為這其實恐怕這確實已經不是只是印度移工的問題而是我們其實臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工的這條路上其實跟過去真的已經不一樣了我認為已經到 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6858.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6871.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
另一個階段也就是說社會各界其實都希望政府能夠在這個引進外籍勞工的過程裡面恐怕必須要承擔起更多基礎設施的建立也包括承擔起更多的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6874.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6897.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這次引發這麼多討論有一個很根本的原因我認為其實就是過去的政府對於移工引進的這個責任的承擔真的太少了所以大部分的壓力都落在僱主身上那僱主尤其是弱勢的僱主如果沒有辦法承擔的話那他就把這個承擔的責任就希望轉移到仲介身上尤其是管理的人到仲介身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6898.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6906.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那如果仲介沒有處理好或者是想要壓低成本各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6909.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6933.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感會有一些包括出現的一些歧視或者是一些這樣既定觀感的我覺得一個原因在這個地方所以它某個部分它在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構但源頭我不知道部長同不同意確實是我們在拼顧移工過程尤其引進移工過程裡面政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6936.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6940.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
有監討的空間啦好,不然我其實知道這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6942.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6971.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
在我們簽訂的MOU的第8條裡面是直接關於這個直接聘僱的部分那條文的內容當然包括說現有招募制度雙方同意推動直接聘僱計劃等等等這是當然第一次把這個職聘的部分寫進這個條文裡但就我所知過去其實臺灣的尤其是老發署曾經也推動過相關的一些職聘的計劃那我想問這一次印度移工的職聘跟過去的職聘不一樣地方在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6972.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7002.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
就是委員您也知道現在我們的職聘其實效能並不是很好啦國內目前對但也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛那麼在國內的職聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前就是說這次台印的MOU裡面這個職聘它是一個必須是一個全新的嘗試啦它的職聘不是我們現在傳統我們看到的國內的這種職聘方式它要有創新的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7002.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7008.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我會覺得國內現在的職聘不太像真的是一個功能完整的職聘是啊對那我說不同在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7009.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7036.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那個不同在於說我們有沒有能力未來這個要評估的就是比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣到對方來源國去設點直接去選工然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業跟政府大家密切合作然後也一起來進行這樣子這是要評估的其實每一個國家之間可能都有情境上的不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7038.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7058.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以你很難完全把另外一個國家今天完全抄襲可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的比方說如果就像部長剛才講到的韓國其實我們大概如果對韓國的職聘進入一些分析把他在這個他韓國職聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候我們大概發現幾件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7058.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7083.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
其實台灣跟目前韓國政府目前在規劃上面的我們大概少了兩件事情第一個事情就是我這個表格裡面提到的他有一個所謂的僱用許可之專用資訊系統一般來說叫做SPAS那下面一個就是透過SPAS去選工這其實反而是現在韓國的執聘系統跟台灣過去的規劃裡面比較大差別的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7083.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7103.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那這當然我們現在先做這樣子的分析可是我們現在看到我們看到勞發署有提到在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到這個直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統我想先請問這是不是就是韓國他們韓國政府他的這個SPS我想先問這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7103.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7104.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我之前也有跟蔡組長討論過這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7124.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7140.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
在引進泰國移工的時候我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS但當時其實並沒有成功當時沒有成功當然原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好所以我們有很多政府的基本的服務沒有提供所以最後變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7142.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7143.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
委員 現在包括臺非或是印尼 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7165.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7185.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這個也有類似這樣子執聘的MOU的那個要求這樣子不然你這樣講我就擔心了我們這一次確實是希望跟過去四國這過去四國當然有一定的這個發展的軌跡可是這一次的印度的MOU這是一個新的機會尤其是我們一開始要做小規模的示範 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7186.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7207.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以在這個小規模示範裡面我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試所以我剛剛說我們其實過去也有嘗試過執聘可是就像它的功能不彰我們也有嘗試過這個SPS的系統可是因為配套不足我認為如果這一次我們包括勞動部的報告裡面MOU第8條裡面就寫說我們要把執聘給做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7208.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7209.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我自己是希望可不可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7221.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7240.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
兩個月內可以把你們接下來如何能夠再汲取過去執聘不太成功的經驗下的改變的做法哪些最重要的改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們我覺得這件事情是這個我覺得不應該閉門造局我覺得這件事情是可以來跟社會各界 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7241.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7259.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
包括移工團體包括雇主團體或者是怎樣怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的職聘來增加政府在聘雇移工過程裡面能夠承擔的責任或者一般人家講居土局我覺得參考其他國家經驗這是一定必要的但重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7261.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7271.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
而不要再重到過去的副社部長這沒有問題吧當然那兩個月內可以嗎可以可以可以好部長我最後我想要提一個事情喔我其實之前在對許部長的質詢裡面我有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7272.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7290.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
不過我們其實遇到一個陳情有一個家庭的僱主他說他家庭的看護工中風了所以這個僱主他一面要照顧他的爸爸又要照顧這位中國的看護工所以他就尋求仲介結果那個仲介就跟他說那你就趕快把這仲介移工送回國就沒你的事了 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7291.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7318.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
但這個僱主他不願意昧著良心這樣做所以他打1995去找勞發署或地方的勞動局但都沒有人能夠協助他最後他跑來這是他的陳情信跑來找我們才在各種的媒介之下來去處理這些事情那這個案例我當時就跟許部長說了這凸顯一件事情是其實我們在台灣的移工並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援的網絡可以去協助他們做出各種其實他可能必要的後勤的支援 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7318.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7341.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
所以這些事情就變成又要落入到僱主的身上當僱主沒能力承擔的時候就會遇到這種大家不樂見的狀況會發生當時許部長有跟我說那時候我們在3月的時候提說兩個月的時間會把這個資源移工的資源中心跟資源的網絡做相關的規劃可是兩個月到了我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7344.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7371.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這個當時蔡署長也是也在場齁那這部分部長覺得需要多久的時間我現在正在要求勞法署進行一個勞政友善計畫這個全面檢討所有的這一個相關的服務是那麼這個建制移工就業指南系統是我們現在正在進行的一個更綜合性的資源計畫是終於支援網絡的中心齁那大概多久時間可以給我們相關的規劃稍微 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7373.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7374.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
黃秀芳委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7402.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7404.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
謝謝主席 我們請何部長好 請何部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7408.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7435.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
委員好部長好部長針對今天我們來看這個台印MOU那我們在3、4月的時候也有在委員會也有特別討論過那我今天想要請教因為我當時在委員會的時候也有請教我們這個許部長就是說未來如果我們朝向就是這個執聘的話那勢必會增加我們所有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7436.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7436.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7457.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7481.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
是,就是委員我剛剛有講到未來這個產業MOU裡面這個紙片它必須是一個新的做法那我們也在嘗試是不是未來有辦法去承擔公部門去承擔這樣的業務量或是掌握跟產業之間的彼此的合作能夠取代仲介事實上我說真的這個必須有待檢視啦對,這您提的問題也確實是問題所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7486.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7486.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我相信部長你應該也知道齁? |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7504.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7532.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
如果是這樣的話因為我們現在很多公部門的業務其實都是委外委外去經營委外去承辦喔像我們勞動部也有很多的這個業務也是委外啊對不對就有一些行政工作也是委外啊那如果是這樣子的話你未來這個職聘的工作是你們自己內部會自己去做還是會委外那如果是委外的話其實就跟現在的這個仲介在經營 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7533.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7558.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我覺得是會一樣啊你可不可以具體再講一下是當然就是說因為這個職聘的模式我還是要強調我們今天推動台印的MOU是為了解決國內的勞動力不足跟缺工的問題倒不是為了推動職聘而去做台印的MOU啦我要坦白講所以我一直強調是雙軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7560.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7582.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
對,事實上你要就印方那邊的現實的情況來看印度它沒有職聘啦我這邊要做職聘的話我這邊事實上我的職聘能力也有也經驗說真的也有限然後我現在必須全新的嘗試所以那也只是小規模的試辦而已啦那你小規模是多小的規模你可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7583.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7598.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
可以以你們現在的想法,小規模是怎樣的小規模?我想也許你比如說我們剛開始1000人好了,裡面可能百分之幾是用這樣子的那個職聘試試看嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7604.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7620.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
因為你還要對方配合啊 事實上在這個MOU當時談判的時候 印方是反對放這個條文的 我要坦白講 是我方一直堅持 所以他們才 因為他們也很感謝 就是為了在那個MOU可以推動 他們也願意接受這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7622.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7641.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
可是我們真的要尊重對方,如果我們要引進對方的移工的話,我還是必須看對方的狀況這樣子。那最快就是說印度移工最快是什麼時候?剛剛部長有特別提到就是說小規模試辦,那最快是什麼時候會試辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7643.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7655.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
您是指這個印度移工的進來嗎?那最快也是一年以後的事情了。一年以後。對。對,其實還蠻長的。好,那在這一年當中,應該你們要把該,如果說未來有職聘的話,可能這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7661.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7689.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
整個程序或者是人力怎麼配置我覺得應該在這一年內你們應該要好好的去規劃是對如果這樣MOU今天如果可以經大院通過那麼我們就趕快來嘗試這個新的做法可以怎麼做然後我們可以跟委員報告對是那另外就是說如果是未來執聘的話我上次在質詢的時候我有特別提到就是說整個程序可能是要更簡便 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7690.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7715.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
應該是要更方便民眾直接在網路上面申請那整個表格可能要更簡便然後更方便所以我也希望說你們這方面可能也要去思考一下要不然其實政府很多的這個要申請書啊什麼可能就是真的很繁瑣很繁雜然後那個程序一關一關我覺得如果是這樣的話如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7717.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7742.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
一般的僱主他可能也會覺得說職聘太麻煩可能又會委託別人來辦理那如果是這樣的話我覺得如果說要朝向職聘或者是有仲介這樣雙軌的話我覺得你職聘應該要更方便讓一般的這個僱主來申請這個整個程序要更簡便委員就是說我現在率先著重於改善我們自己國內的職聘的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7744.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7758.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我現在對推動一個勞政友善化的計畫我要求這邊必須檢討我們整個所有這個移工申請的流程裡面到底有哪些繁瑣的地方能夠盡量能夠讓人民覺得說開始方便起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7758.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7782.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7783.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7796.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以我希望就是說因為我最近就聽到很多這個我們現在有那個農業就是已經農業移工嘛有很多農場或者是這個養豬場我最近是碰到這個養豬場 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7798.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7822.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那他們是說他們自己小小的一個養豬場可是他們就有聘一兩個這個外籍移工那他們覺得說這個確實是幫助他們非常的大因為這個缺工的問題造成很多這個3K的這個工作沒人做那如果說有這樣子的移工進來的話確實可以解決一些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7823.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7845.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
議員﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7845.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7868.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
如果說非常的繁瑣他還是會請別人來代辦就像我們現在有很多事情覺得說很麻煩他可能就請一個代書幫他辦那如果說這個我們太繁瑣的話要聘請移工太繁瑣的話他還是會回到仲介那邊所以我在這邊要特地 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7868.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7869.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢,我們現在休息五分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8275.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8300.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
好我們繼續開會請大家就座接下來我們請林楚英委員資訊謝謝主席主席我們有請外交部現在是副司長的對許副司長對許副司長來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8306.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8327.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
副市長好,我想其實台印之間的關係升溫在最近的一些大事件當中都已經可以看得出來那麼其實我們從2000年2008年到2016再到現在2024一直以來我們跟印度之間的這個交流可以說是越來越緊密包括連莫迪總理都特別發魂來恭賀我們的賴清德總統那麼台印之間的關係隨著這個MOU的簽訂我想會更加的緊密那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8334.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8355.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
日本席主要還是在國防外交委員會那今天這個只是一個備查的MOU要來做實質的瞭解的時候我覺得也不是壞事因為可以讓國人注意到台印之間那麼本來本席是要問一下藍司長的不過我想許副司長也可以帶我回應就是台印之間現在除了這個有關於移工的問題之外和交流之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8356.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8370.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
包括未來可預見的還有哪一些台印之間我們其實看這個問題恐怕不是只是看人力國內的需求我相信還有更多台印的外交之間可以有一些進展的部分可不可以聊一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8374.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8395.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
謝謝委員。我想台印度的關係,今年日前升溫。印度末底在2014年提出的東京政策,事實上跟我國的新南向外交政策是不謀而合。所以我想是雙方面具有戰略的互補性。站在我們提倡價值外交的立場, |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8396.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8423.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那我想我們外交部當然一定會全力來推動加強這個雙邊我們跟台我們跟印度之間的一個雙邊合作關係特別是推動這個兩國雙方這個經貿跟人員的交流特別特別是這幾年我們跟印度也在這個經貿經貿投資半導體傳統醫藥自動訊教育文化等領域這個關係各個領域的關係事實上日益密切所以未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8424.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8441.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
當然我們外交部也會持續在這幾個領域再持續加強推動那今天我們討論這個勞務合作案當然這個是對於雙方人員交流也是非常有助益所以我們也會配合這個主政單位勞動部他們的專業規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8442.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8442.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
是,沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8465.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8483.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
其實我覺得我們也有義務在委員會當中讓大家知道這不只是我們國內生產力人力部分補足的問題其實在外交上面也有它外交必須所展現出來的一些成果或者是面向讓國人知道好謝謝副市長請回我現在有請我們的這個勞動部請何部長何部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8492.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8511.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
部長好,我想其實這個人力的短缺的問題,不只是在場大家都知道,全台灣都知道。如果我們從現在人力缺口來看,根據現在勞動部的113年的第二次人力需求調查會發現,我們的人力需求一直都是呈現不夠的狀態。 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8512.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8538.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那麼也不是說我們現在有人想找工作找不到工作或者是說其實想要找工作的人他其實的需求不太一樣包括我們今年可以看到的是我們的這個所謂失業率的部分也是24年來新低也言下之意這樣的人力的缺口在台灣內部他會出現的是也許台灣民眾講白了他就是不選擇這樣的類別所以我們必須靠移工來補足 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8541.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8542.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
部長,其實你們面對的應該是整個產業面的人力需求,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8559.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8584.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好所以今天我們在這裡討論這樣的一個人力需求的時候他是業界需要的嗎?從印度簽訂這個MOU是業界需要的嗎?我想這個是最重要的那如果是業界產業需要而整個我們的人力上面又出現這樣的一個缺口因為包括今天蠻巧的經濟委員會你可能不知道他所命的題目叫做面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8588.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8611.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以你就會發現說全台灣在各個產業都需要人力的補充跟補足那麼在這個部分我們針對去簽訂了這個印度的MOU部長怎麼來看這樣的人力的部分可以有效的補上然後讓這個每年至少4萬的人數的缺工對產業鏈上面可以給予哪些幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8613.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8630.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我們在諮詢會議裡面就是發現業界其實表示了高度的興趣啦尤其是製造業甚至營造業這樣子的產業啦那事實上印度移工他們在這方面他們也是向全球輸出的現在他們的全球移工輸出高達1800萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8631.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8648.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所以他們是非常具有國際經驗的移工輸出經驗那在這個我們國內的產業的這樣的互補性上所以我們初期一定是以製造業先為主我們希望能夠很快的媒合然後能夠在這方面能夠讓產業補足人力的缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8650.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8670.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
當然除了第一部會是以製造業為主而且在製造業的話可能在僱主這邊包括剛剛前面的委員都有聊到談到關心到的職聘的這樣一個問題但是接下來當然在國內有關於照顧類的家庭照顧類的這樣的家庭看護的移工其實大家也都在要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8671.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8688.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
以這樣子來講的話因為在這一次的MOU簽訂當中的第二條就說了職類跟名額由我方來決定我相信回歸到一般民眾他們比較關心的會是家庭的看護移工的增加跟步驟那麼今天被查 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8689.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8713.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
完備之後我們經過委員會的討論之後我想民眾更關心的恐怕是外國移工尤其是我想在野黨的委員他們也自己提了好幾個版本啦都希望年滿80歲以上然後免醫療機構來做這個評估我想民眾都會把那個期待值往這裡去加過去包括說有沒有可能這個部分可以把這樣的人力補充進來那麼部長怎麼來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8715.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8722.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
委員這個部分剛才在委員會裡面討論非常多可是我要再次強調如果這個提案通過的話會產生馬上產生53萬的移工缺口這是一個蠻龐大的數字那所以很多團體也擔心會排起重症失能者的照顧因為現在全球都在搶工不是只有我們在搶移工是全球包括我們的鄰近的日韓他們也都在搶 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8745.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8764.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以這個是一個要正式的嚴峻的問題那真的也拜託委員能夠三思啦在這個提案上面能夠做一點比較審酌的考量這樣子好本席把這個提出來就是我們一方面我們在審查然後外界甚至於有一些詆毀的聲音在講說從這個印度來的這個移工怎麼樣怎麼樣這些沒有經過查證的相關的這種質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8770.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8771.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
接下來我們請王定宇委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8801.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8822.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
請勞動部長部長第一次在這邊看到你有些問題要請教你我也代表國人要提出一些關心我們希望提供正確的訊息不便回答的或者資訊不完整的我們都可以讓你盡量補充你知道現在全世界都在搶人力資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8823.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8846.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
人力資源我們細分其實可以分成白領的勞工技術工藍領的技術工還有一般的我們講過去講3K啦就是這個移工類的等等那這一次我們勞動部去跟印度簽這個MOU的原因是什麼是你們自己想到的還是台灣有產業界在遊說這個事情還是有什麼樣的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8847.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8856.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這個因為當然就是要增加來源國的考量啦過去我們就是一直依賴那四國那個印度那個印尼的律兵那四國你覺得不能再依賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8857.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8883.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
因為他們也在全球也在搶他們也有很多我們看到的是越南本身也有慢慢有缺工的情形泰國也有類似的情形所以原來那四國的經濟有起來有的是他們的移工去海外學的技術掌握了通路回去自己開公司像我們南部在做那個皮球的做那個足球的公司幾乎都被越南的取代掉了原因在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8884.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8905.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8905.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8928.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
感謝每一位移工為台灣的付出不管他在家裡照顧長輩或者在烈日下做營建工程其實他們都在這片土地上付出心力不能去歧視他但是我們還是要提醒勞動部引進移工通常會面對第一個問題是會不會影響到台灣本土的勞工我們自己的勞工會不會因為印度的MOU受到影響你們有沒有什麼預防的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8929.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8950.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
委員其實台印的這個以移工引進他絕對是不會去影響到國內的就業機會因為其實這都是是國內的產業不足的部分才去補充的我們一定是優先以國內我們以往是說國內的企業徵財徵財徵財三次徵不到財他才能開缺所以方法是跟過去的移工方式一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8951.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8953.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那現在跟印度簽的MOU是除了經過仲介以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8981.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9007.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
對,再增加一個職聘的管道。對。那這個好處在哪裡?這個好處當然就是減少仲介中間的操縱。對,是是。可是這個要討慮對方的問題。因為印度本身沒有什麼職聘的制度。那他也是透過仲介的。所以當我方這邊要用職聘的時候,可能我這邊成本會比較高。對,我要到對方去設點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9012.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9035.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我們要嘗試把它...因為印度社會的文化結構跟我們不太一樣那他們那邊如果都是仲介公司那台灣某個企業他要職聘通常會職聘的人是因為他在印度有分公司他在印度有設企業點他要把那邊的人直接聘過來台灣他用職聘的他就知道要聘誰這種會用到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9037.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9053.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那這樣子的情形下還是我要提醒勞動部還是要避免去排擠到臺灣本身的需求你懂意思嗎當然因為他在那邊因為在南印度的幾個省還有東印度其實臺灣有很多公司在那邊設廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9055.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9071.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以執聘這一類是避免剝削所以印度移工他省得被人家剝好幾層皮對台灣的雇主我可以找到我想要的而不是來用美化我又換嘛那最常發現就是因為印度本身沒有什麼中介沒有什麼執聘制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9071.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9093.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以常會發現是比如說台灣富士康在那邊有設一個工業區他就把那邊的想要聘過來他可以用職聘的或者某某企業在印度有設廠區他要把那邊的好的技術工引進來台灣可能會發生在這裡所以我這邊本期要提醒勞動部就這個樣態一定要避免國內的職缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9095.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9115.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
因為這個樣態被排擠。這個有做提醒。對,這也是要小心的。因為他這個職聘是企業內職聘。是,沒錯。他是跨國企業的企業內職聘。而跨國企業內的職聘就很有可能那個職缺的控管會有一些沒槓。當然。勞動部這個要注意。當然。所以委員我要再次跟你強調我們是雙軌。 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9116.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9136.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
就是仲介跟職聘雙軌對啊但是我如果是一個跨國企業我企業內體系我跨國都有點的時候我當然選擇職聘啊因為我當地公司可以recruitrecruit了之後再把它transfer到台灣這就職聘了但我不排斥這個方法因為這個企業可以用到合用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9137.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9140.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我看一下這一次其實這個MOU很多的決定事項是台灣提出決定事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9159.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9175.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那印度方是願意?是這個比較罕見的這個就是非常罕見的而且我們非常感謝印方的積極跟對我們的友好因為印度坦白講以往印度大概是在中印邊界開始丟石頭以後開始丟石頭丟石頭然後丟完石頭呢他們的國安部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9176.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9201.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我們駐印的使館也瞭解說他們的國安部門對於中國那邊的不管零部件的進口或者人的甚至於採購是有疑慮的現在等於擴大到他們的一般經貿部門過去比較親中的也開始設限了那回過頭來變台灣跟他就有一個合作的基礎所以這既是經濟又是外交所以我們這一次我方可以決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9202.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9203.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
反彈很大因為這個他們就賺不到錢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9231.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9249.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那其實對台灣的生意人台灣的企業家跟印度勞工其實是有幫助的但我還是要提醒還是要避免排擠嘛那我最後要請教一個問題治安的部分其實我看到國人在擔憂的是治安的部分那我也藉由我們在立法院的委員會提醒國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9251.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9276.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
對任何族裔的人我們都應該平等看待,不能有那種僵化的或者固定的一個歧視跟誤解,對國內的族群如此,對國外也是。印度是全球唯二超過10億以上的國家,當然他們有他們的種姓制度,那個是我們他們國家的內政,所以對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9277.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9296.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
移工的進入到臺灣有關治安的部分勞動部做什麼努力我問最後的問題就好了是我們現在已經跟移民署有對接在合作因為這個治安的部分我們要跟移民署一起控管這樣子所以我們可以要求移工比如說無犯罪紀錄啊或者相關的保證等等對當然一定就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9297.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9327.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9328.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9343.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但是對於近來的人的犯罪記錄以及相關的處理可能勞動部在初期要多用心一點好不好以上謝謝勞動部謝謝主席好謝謝王定義委員那下一位請我們王一鳴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9353.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9377.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
謝謝主席那我想要先請外交部我們亞太斯許副市長好請外交部我們的副市長副市長我先請教你好就是我看台印的MOU第13條他其實有特別提到本瞭解備忘錄得修正或修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9378.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9402.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
就是第13條其實有這樣子寫那所以我要請教你的就是說我們跟其他國家所締結的MOU他是可以修改的嗎?內容是可以修改的嗎?如果經由我們國內的公民團體的意見跟立法院大家的討論之後覺得有一些內容應該要去做修正請問MOU按照外交的慣例 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9403.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9409.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
他是不是可以提出修改特別是我看在這一份裡面第13條有提到得修正或修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9411.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9435.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
關於委員我想這個案子因為是界定為這個協定那主政單位也依照這個條約締結法的第7條跟第12條的規定來進行那至於這個因為依照條約締結法的規定這個協定案我們都是送立法院查照但是因為大院把它改為審議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9436.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9440.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那為什麼要在條約裡面就是去放13條就是得修正或修改? |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9461.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9467.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
如果是這樣的話應該當時這個連放都不要放因為他等於是沒有修正空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9467.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9495.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
報告委員這個MOU裡面是有有第13條規定就是提到可以修正的這個這個條文所以原則上他本來就是可以嗎?但是我現在指的就是說這個協定案在我國的依照目前沒有前例沒有這種就是依照我國條約締結法我們沒有送查照審議然後又修正的這種情況了解但是就他本身的內容跟精神是可以提出修正跟修改的所以才會放在第13條對不對我這樣解讀應該沒有錯誤吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9497.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9497.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
接下來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9511.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9535.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
部長,我上午聽了非常多你回答委員的一些意見基本上我會覺得你好像不太想推動執聘方案或者是說你對執聘方案根本就沒有信心也沒有決心因為你一再強調說續聘比較有可能執聘在你的口中所討論出來的是困難重重 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9536.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9565.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
是這樣子嗎?我會盡全力來推動。會盡全力來推動?對,我會盡全力來推動。但是你剛剛的回答讓本席覺得你其實是蠻沒有信心的。不是沒有信心,可是我要承認這問題不容易啦。好,那部長我要提醒你齁,在你們今天送出來的報告裡面,你們的會議結論提到了多數意見認為應優先推動直聘,直接聘僱,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9567.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9583.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這是你們送出來的報告喔是不是你們開了兩次的會議那多數意見認為應優先推動直接評估是不是其實應該委員那個多數意見是推動雙軌啦而不是推動直接不是你們報告不是這樣子寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9584.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9607.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那個報告我沒有看你沒有看我沒有看我對不起你不要送來立法院的報告你沒有看不是不是就是我有解讀錯誤嗎這個是你們送進來的報告啊裡面提的非常清楚他說多數意見認為優先推動直接聘僱然後有移工團體認為一定就只有單軌的G2G我這樣有解讀錯誤嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9610.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9620.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
沒有吧所以我要跟部長確認是說如果你自己都開了會議大家認為應該優先推動直接聘僱那我覺得勞動部就應該要全力以赴這個是符合多數你們開會出來的結論包括今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9631.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9653.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
其實不分民進黨或國民黨的委員每一個委員都在強調在這一次我們跟台印的MOU如果可以推動直接聘僱制度這是大家的期待就是連民進黨的委員也期待推動那所以在這個部分我又看到勞動部在這方面的決心或信心不足那要怎麼做呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9654.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9661.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我要跟您報告就是我會盡全力來推動啦這個就是我要去嘗試然後要去對處理對會提出這樣的質疑就是因為你提到了非常多的困難你說我們跟韓國也不一樣然後又提到印度他本身並沒有職聘的制度所以你講了非常多的條件之後那個結論好像要出來了就是你其實並沒有把重點放在職聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9683.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9703.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
你覺得未來是續聘比較可行?職聘看起來還遙遙無期不是遙遙無期而是說我們嘗試來開始推動那你剛剛自己一直在提雙軌制雙軌制那你在比例上面呢?你說你預定第一階段一千名的印度勞工你的透過職聘制度進來的要有多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9704.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9706.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
今天已經排了這樣的一個質詢我覺得你們其實應該要有備而來才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9732.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9751.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那所以我要提醒的是說現在大家沒有反對我們再去開發更多的新的來源國但是現在大家關注的是臺灣過去的引進的這些外籍移工制度有很多已經被詬病特別是透過人力仲介被剝削的這個部分所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9752.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9774.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
為什麼這一次台印大家才會把期待放在既然你是重新去談判我們跟我們台印可以重新談判簽證MOU那我們國內的民意應該就是你們最強而有力的後盾你們可以把臺灣我們所開過的會議專家學者跟移工團體跟各界跟立法院審議的這些意見跟聲音帶著去跟印度溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9776.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9797.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那跟他們溝通說我們對於這一次雙方開啟合作對於職聘制度大家是重中之重而且是最優先所以我們應該要好好來研議在職聘制度上面印度方可能要配合什麼樣的事項我們又應該做出什麼準備雙方你如果說未來還有一年的時間我們應該針對這些事情好好的研議跟討論這樣的事情才會有進展但是這個部分我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9806.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9831.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
你現在是部長你的決心跟你引領帶領同仁去走的那個方向其實非常的重要那今天坦白講我還沒看出你的決心那我希望你這件事情你應該要感受到這樣的民意還有立法院的意見你在這件事情你剛剛有一再強調說我們是因為缺工才跟印度不是因為跟印度合作要把這個職聘作為是最優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9832.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9848.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
但是坦白講現在的民意跟立法院現在表達出來的意見就是藉由這次台印合作的機會要把職聘制度希望他可以成功從這邊開始所以我希望你是要全力以赴好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9849.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9854.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
拿出這樣的一個決心,這樣你下面的同仁才會往這個方向衝啊以你的回應方向是模擬良可或是你剛剛還有回答委員說是續聘優先我覺得那這樣大家衝的動力就沒有我們希望這樣子立法院實質的討論它是有意義的其實我們是給了你更強大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9869.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9892.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
未來要去跟印度溝通的一個談判的籌碼就讓他知道說我們國內對這個執行制度我們是抱著非常大希望而且你可以跟印度講啊過去他沒有如果跟台灣跟中華民國建立起這樣的一個新的模式也可以給其他國家這是一個示範也可以給其他國家看啊印度他也要進步啊他不是都是靠人力中介他們政府也應該開始學會去扛 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9894.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9895.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這部分部長可不可以承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9922.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9933.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
好,那我們希望台印的這個合作真的讓執聘制度從這一次跟印方的合作我們開始落實部長加油,勞動部加油,謝謝好,謝謝王一鳴委員那下一位請我們陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9955.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9982.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我們請部長好請部長部長好部長我想應該是在幾個月前這個印度移工的風波那到現在偶然偶爾還是會有一些印度辦事處或者是駐台的這個印度的這些外交官員會聊到這件事情那我想這一個歧視的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9983.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10004.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我們未來一定要先做好預防免得會成為國際事件印度官方的認證那是有22種但是國人長期是對印度的認識不深那甚至包含勞動部那之前的部長那有一些用刻板印象的說法在這個電視媒體上面說到那我們這要全力去避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10005.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10029.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我們希望說印度移工來台灣是一個非常複雜的問題牽扯到的是經濟、勞動、外交、國安其實都有一些關聯在我想請教部長是不是有相關的計畫來去增加台灣對印度或者是彼此之間互相的認識來去消弭印度的朋友或者是台灣的朋友對印度的認知上的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10030.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10030.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
是,謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10047.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10061.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
貴院,我們也有這樣子的很多這個臺印的這個友好協會啊那我們希望能夠未來在外交部在這方面我們能夠合作更多然後來處理這樣子部長我是希望說把數字也拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10062.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10089.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
因為之前他們的說法勞動部前部長的說法他是其實是直接講到膚色這個是外交的大忌啊外交的大忌這個是直接是種族上面的歧視這不行那除此之外呃針對這一個移工在台灣的一些相關的數據還有印度的實質上面的不管是經濟治安上面的表現那如果可以透過對話的方式交流的方式把它顯現出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10090.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10106.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
讓國人對於整體的這個看法能夠改觀我想這也是勞動部必須要做的事情因為其實對於印度的刻板印象這個是很明確的很明顯的那我們必須要消弭這個部分勞動部是不是可以多做一些啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10106.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10128.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
好 這我們來就是我們會來加大努力來進行這樣子而且剛才我們提到22個不同的語言還有不同的族裔跟不同的宗教信仰所以印度來台的移工他的這個宗教的多元性多樣性可能必須也要跟僱主上面的溝通這方面有沒有做好準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10130.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10150.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
對,我們現在就是在進行一系列的諮詢會議,現在已經開到,即將要開第三場。對,我們就是把所有的這個雇主端、各種團體的相關定義團體都找來。大家,包括甚至通曉印度的學者,來一起建議,對,然後一起來大家來凝聚共識這樣子。對,我是希望說,除了形式上面, |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10152.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10171.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
實質上的跟僱主的這些溝通是真的是非常重要的,包含相關的勞動法規這些都要講清楚,不然到時候他都會隨時任何一個事件都可能會引爆火花,所以我必須要先做好預防,就是說不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10172.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10197.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這跟我們過去的多元性比較起來印度真的是非常多元的這個可能自己要先做好準備不要讓幾個月前發生的事情再次發生的話那對台印關係會造成非常大的影響那幾個月前的影響到現在都還會偶然會被提到齁那這個是還是要先跟部長先講清楚齁這個要做好準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10197.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10220.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
然後第二個部分根據MOU的第二條那印度勞工的職類跟名額是由臺灣決定那你們5月的這個諮詢會議是朝小規模的方式引進製造業勞工為優先這個方向有更改嗎還是一樣對目前還是以製造業為優先對農業勞工會不會有可能會成為接下來開放的領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10221.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10239.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
這要看情況,要看先我們還要先觀察看看這個印度移工早期來的他能不能適應然後再進一步擴及其他領域這樣子對我們農業的部分因為從這個我們自己的選區嘉義他是台灣重要的糧倉 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10240.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10267.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
農民朋友們長期是跟我們反映這個缺工的問題那我是希望說勞動部應該要積極的跟農業部討論除了這種小型的或者是製造業的小規模製造業的勞工的優先之外那農業上面的可能性是怎麼樣那去年監察院的報告有說這個農業的基礎勞動力是又老又缺工的狀況那從這個圖表我們自己看到我們自己整理那65歲以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10269.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10275.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
在台灣的平均更新規模只有0.72公頃的狀況之下小農經營的形態我們缺工狀況是高達10萬人次所以勞動部除了工業之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10290.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10295.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
委員現在就是我們跟農業部有合作農業移工外展移工啦這您應該知道嗎那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10311.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10333.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10333.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10353.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
這也是要看再進一步看這個印度這邊的他們來源國有沒有相關適合的人才這個都還要再進一步評估啦對反正就是先讓這個工業先寫然後你們再評估之後看身體的狀況之後當然如果有可能我們都不要放棄嘛對不對對啊我還是在替我們農業缺工的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10354.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10382.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
它已經是一個結構性的問題那我們希望更多的外援能夠進入不然尤其特別是這種高這種直接是高人工性的部分機械無法去取代的部分可能就會遇到很大的挑戰那印度的勞工或許是可以成為一個重要的選項但是還是希望說相關的報告這些小型的製造業先行之後還是希望說有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10383.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10394.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
整體的報告出來我們來看看可不可以再推行到農業上面農業求農的問題是好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請羅廷維委員資訊部長先喝個水啊等你好有請主席請部長好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10412.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10439.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
委員好部長好部長第一次跟您做答詢我想跟您先表個態我們非常關心這個外送員的專法那我想這個召委也有提外送員相關的一個法案我們都很關心外送員他們的一些權益也希望這個勞動部能夠有所表態或者是趕快送相關的一些有利於他們的一些法案能夠來內部來跟我們一起審我想未來我們為這個外送員發聲的機會會更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10442.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10461.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
今天想跟你探討印度移工的NOU我想記這個越南印尼還有菲律賓馬來西亞泰國蒙古印度準備將成為第7個移工的來源那我想在這個很多媒體已經揭露相關的熱烈的討論我想有一些意見想跟你做一些交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10462.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10476.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
勞動部事前有沒有經過許多的評估才做這樣子的一個決定但是台灣與印度的民間交流仍有限如果出現重大的大量的這個印度移工國內外國內的一個社會衝擊有沒有評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10478.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10480.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
今天討論印度勞工的備忘錄,請問部長印度移工何時來台? |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10499.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10518.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
就是要經大院通過以後,我們才能往下做工作層級會議,最快一年以後。一年以後,那如果一年以後你會先辦小規模的試辦嗎?對,只是小規模先開始。小規模的人數大概多少?就大概一千人。一千人。那預計開放從事什麼樣的行業呢?製造業。製造業。對。會開放服務業嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10522.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10543.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
當然目前沒有考慮沒有考慮那我想跟您請問一下就是勞動部報告裡面有一個臺印度勞務合作事務專家的諮詢會議召開兩次有邀請部會裡面有農業部對所以是不是要開放印度移工從事國內的農業那只是諮詢啦那是諮詢對那並不是要去規劃開放農業的意思那農業部去討論諮詢大概哪一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10550.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10564.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所有的開放業,所有你看像我們還會邀請衛福部那像其實因為有可能需要移工的領域我們都會邀請可是並不是說我就要開放這個領域了我們探尋一下而已對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10566.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10584.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
好那在報告中第4頁有寫到印度移工入國前除資格條件限制要求減負行為良好無犯罪記錄相關的證明一將要這個需具備一定的學經歷請問部長有關學經歷的部分印度移工具備什麼樣的學歷才能來台大學專科 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10586.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10603.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
可能初期我們會限定他要高中以上高中以上我想許多人誤以為這個印度人都會講英文那事實上全印度會講英語的人大概只有10%勞工階層比例相對更低而且我們都知道他其實有那個方言 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10604.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10625.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
很多人都有這樣,他們自己有大概二十幾種官方語言,東西南北都不太一樣,所以未來在語言的翻譯上將是一個關鍵的成本,但台灣懂這些語言的人也有限,所以這個部分我說如果沒有世界的翻譯人員、官員階層又該如何將第一線的執行相關的能夠來傳達,這個部分我們有所因應嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10626.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10652.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
是當然這個我們其實那個委員剛開始我們會以通曉英語的為主啦其實印度10%第94億人口10%就幾千萬人了其實也是非常多的我們會先挑以通曉英語的為主好最後擔憂啦就是約有八成的人信奉印度教但是全台公開的印度廟宇大概只有一間 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10653.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10655.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
接下來我們請圖權及委員質詢。好,謝謝素綺。那請我們何佩珊、何部長。好,請部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10683.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10702.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好部長我們今天也針對我們跟印度簽署印度移工MOU的事情來做討論那這個其實在3月6號我們在未完委員會我們王昭偉的時候就有安排一下進行專題討論那時候本席也有針對這部分提出臨時提案也有請我們勞動部針對我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10706.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10728.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這一部分召開跨部會還要請我們專家學者還有勞資、仲介、移工、地方政府等代表來參與希望提供對於我們社會影響評估、勞動市場影響評估還有政策可行性評估希望你們做一個具體完善的報告再來送交我們社福及衛環委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10729.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10756.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那這個報告我們在5月31日我們有收到那針對這一部分我想請問一下何部長我們就是因為認為勞動部針對之前專題報告的時候評估做得不夠所以也希望再進一步請專家學者來進行評估那因你在立法院幕僚任職多年應該知道我們目的是這樣嘛對不對要加強做這個評估嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10757.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10765.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好那我們就針對我們剛剛做講的這三項評估我們來看一下那針對我們勞動市場影響評估後來我針對這幾個看了一下我發現3月6號專題報告所看到的評估跟5月31號我們勞動部所提供這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10780.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10791.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
評估報告我覺得這個除了字數有做改變之外他裡面的內容意義看起來幾乎是完全一樣部長針對這部分你有沒有自己有沒有看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10793.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10819.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
委員其實因為大概問題意思是類似的啦所以他的描述大概就是指呢所以我的意思是說針對其實我們勞動市場影響評估報告其實嚴格來講3月6日跟5月31日其實做出來其實是完全一樣啦那意思也是完全一樣我就說除了字數改變以外其實看起來的幾乎是沒有什麼改變那再來我們針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10820.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10835.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
2.政策可行性評估 針對這一部分我們也瞭解一下他的全文兩個對照之下87%都是相同的跟3月6日專題報告所提出的評估幾乎是相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10835.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10852.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那重點這裡面移工服務不足最重要的通譯資源我們勞動部的回覆是未來在事情況盤點那我請問一下部長你知道在印度什麼語言他們使用最高嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10856.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10875.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
對,我們台灣針對印地語,我們到底手忍程度有多少?然後我們台灣這一部分針對印地語有在做檢定嗎?目前坦白講應該是沒有,可是我要跟您說明,我們剛開始一定會先以童小英語的人才為主。 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10875.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10894.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
而且可能要限定本英語才先來這樣子那我們針對這部分因為我也看不到有任何的做法那針對勞動部勞發署針對這些通益資源的盤點我們有針對這部分做超前部署嗎現在有在盤點中 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10896.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10913.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
有跟移民署而且跟移民署一起一起會同在盤點中對啦不過說實在話因為我們看這個評估報告我們看不到有任何的做法只看到就是說針對未來的情況在座盤點表示其實目前沒有任何規劃任何做法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10914.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10925.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
還有再來就是社會影響評估其實我們看了一下其實真的也是跟前面一樣幾乎這個內容我看幾乎也是複製貼上那針對這部分我們看 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10930.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10944.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
比較不一樣的就是我們有召集了第一次台印度勞務合作事務專家諮詢的會議那針對這部分我們看了一下印度專家有針對這部分提出兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10945.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10962.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10963.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10980.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我們針對這個評估報告所做出來的第一項第二項就是說印度在台灣的人數很少尚未形成大型的族群所以他的交流不平凡也難以串聯逃跑所以我們看得到我們勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10982.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11005.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
老法署我們花了三個月的時間開了兩次的專案會議那其實前面的評估報告幾乎都是大同小異啦那唯一比較不一樣就是有針對合作事務的專家諮詢會議提出兩個評估的成果那我不知道部長你對這部分覺得這個成果你滿意嗎覺得有沒有需要再 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11007.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11026.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
可以再加強啦可以再檢討加強好嗎對啊我是建議啦其實我們花了三個月的時間當初臨時提案就是希望等一個完善的評估報告其實等了三個月我們看不到有什麼特殊的評估報告所以其實這整個專業評估報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11028.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11049.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
說實在話,如果說這個論文拿去判定,我在想可能還是會被判定抄襲,因為這個幾乎是雷同,可以說是一模一樣所以我覺得三個月的時間應該要有一點成果,不然當初3月6日我們臨時提案,結果等了三個月是等這樣的報告,我覺得我們應該很失望 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11050.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11065.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
委員因為這個在我上任前處理的所以這個我想我來要求他們這個未來啦我們在做這種相關的評估報告的話一定要確實啦對我希望針對這個評估報告還是要再加強再來給我們審查我覺得這個報告幾乎都是複製貼上沒有什麼成果我會請他們來檢討改進好嗎好還有針對我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11077.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11078.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我當然贊成啊對 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11099.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11114.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
對啊,所以我們看了一下從之前的許明春部長到部長然後我們民進黨的林淑芬委員還有民眾黨的陳昭芝委員針對這部分職聘的部分大家都贊同那現在到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11116.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11145.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
部長你覺得這個職聘的問題是在哪裡?對委員是這樣我態度上我是一定贊成的我也很希望推動可是我要跟您坦白說明這個職聘一定推動有它的困難那麼困難所以我講的是說我們要坦白面對這個職聘的困難然後要去克服我的態度是這樣的我們不要說誇口說我們一定做得到那事實上到時候做不到怎麼辦呢對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11146.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11162.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
因為這畢竟對台灣來講是一個全新的經驗我們印度那邊好像也沒有目前那它印度官方有意願配合嗎?我們只能期待啦可是印度它初期一定也是以中介為主啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11164 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11189.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
這是他們的習慣跟文化那我這邊有建議啦因為我們也知道說現在要做一定有它的一個難度在我這邊有一個建議就是希望可以循序漸進去實施啦針對如果我們G2G這個職聘人數調整的比例如果在1000人的時候我們建議配套來做5%1000到3000人我們建議配套來做10% |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11190.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11218.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
三千到五千人建議做15%然後五千到一萬建議做20%一萬人以上我們建議做25%然後也可以提供僱主職聘的誘因讓這僱主有能夠提供優先的選工的權利那針對這部分我們希望依序漸進來做這樣子我覺得後面實施的可能性就會比較大不過針對部長對這有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11219.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11219.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11250.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11263.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
委員好好部長好那這個我等一下這個powerpoint打開不過因為畢竟這個我並不是勞工的專長所以我大概會有幾個事情還是從外交的角度但第一件事情想先請問就是說這可以按 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11266.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11291.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
因為我們是從2月16日開始發生這件事情那4月2日的時候是送這個行政院說要備查那4月19日的時候呢說要改成做審查這大概這個時程那中間這個轉換呢看起來應該是因為有這個移工聯盟的這個記者會說這一個說說是不是這個為什麼要先簽MOU是不是要實質的審查那但是我這幾個有幾個比較小的問題第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11293.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11308.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
之前我們在簽MOU的時候,因為這四個是我們台灣目前移工最多的國家,那我們是都有先簽MOU嗎?還是說有些都直接簽協定呢?都是MOU。都有先MOU是不是?對,是。可是都沒有經過審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11311.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11313.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
接下來就是有沒有有一些狀況就是說我們是有簽了但是後來並沒有引入勞工的有這樣的狀況嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11333.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11339.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
在這個狀況到底要怎麼去做審查我覺得這是一件蠻有疑問的事情但它竟然已經 我覺得立法院已經做成這個決定了所以我們還是要去討論它的實質內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11352.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11365.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
因為我在看2024年2月22勞動部有一個澄清稿的時候這邊有提到說就是我紅色的部分說簽了以後依這個條約締結法的規定受立法院的監督那我們就來看一下這個條約締結法因為條約締結法前面的這個第三條第一項這個是條約那第二個就是這個所謂的協定是指條約以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11376.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11401.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
約國各方具有拘束力的國際書面的協定所以協定基本上要被查這個是沒有什麼問題但MOU的這一個拘束力到底有多大呢就是說我們剛剛可以看到就是說MOU其實也有簽了但是到最後也沒有辦法進行下去所以這一件事情要把它納進來我還是覺得說勞動部這邊可能也要一個立場因為如果今天我們確定MOU就是要拿來做審查那可能以後MOU都要審查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11402.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11423.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
這個可能也會造成我覺得對委員來講也是蠻大的一個負荷我覺得這一點我覺得可能還是要先釐清一下那再來就是這個我就先跳過再來就是我們在立法院這一邊我們能夠做的事情因為MOU到底能不能放在法律裡面放在我們的這個職權裡面做審查這個當然是先打一個問號但即使我們今天能夠審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11424.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11449.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
依照條文的規定看起來我們要買就是全部都退回去嘛我們沒辦法再做細部的一個變更不然因為它只是一個意向書而已所以要買就是全部退回去要買就是全部都OK是不是部長是不是這樣的一個狀況所以在這個審查的過程當中因為我們今天國防外交之所以會聯席可能也是因為這個原因因為如果我們最後的結果就是要買就存查要買就直接退回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11452.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11454.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
在外交這件事情會不會有所影響? |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11465.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11479.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我想這一次真的很難得就是印度方非常的積極我現在如果說這個MOU不幸沒有通過而被退回這當然對雙方關係會是個傷害啊所以這就是變成說我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11481.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11499.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
在這一份報告裡面讓其他立法委員在審查的時候因為我相信很多人會關心台灣勞工的權益啦然後呢以及我們對於社會的評估啦我覺得那都是正當的那都是應該值得討論的但是因為不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉所以呢可能也必須也要請部長多多也是跟委員們溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11500.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11526.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
就是說它畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在那我們身為國防外交的委員我們當然不樂見嘛 對不對所以要怎麼打到一個平衡我覺得是重要的但是也是可能必須麻煩這個勞動部要多多跟其他委員來做相關的說明好那再來就是剛剛一直提到的這個直接聘僱的可能性因為剛剛有提到說這絕對是好事啦那但是說有困難可不可以再告訴大家一下那個困難的點目前是在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11527.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11545.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
就是說這是一個全新的經驗啦這不是我們現在臺灣自己內部的那種職聘而是如果我們依照外國的經驗來看它一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦這都是企業在海外然後我們政府跟企業搭配然後這個大家去那邊甚至駐點 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11546.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11546.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
謝謝委員長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11574.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11574.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11605.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11619.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
接下來我們請黃仁委員黃仁委員黃仁委員不在我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在我們請陳培宇委員謝謝主席有請部長謝謝好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11635.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11657.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
時間有限,我想跟部長討論一下關於工會的事情我相信其實工會的政策一直都是勞動部很重要長期支持的政策我們今天要講的是球員工會的事情事實上在職棒球員工會或是職籃球員工會他們都有簽訂所謂的團體協約或者是目前正在跟協會討論相關的約定那這個是很重要的示範而且也感謝勞動部長期都有支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11658.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11683.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
可是呢目前有全國這麼多工會勞動部的支持畢竟有限那我們辦公室自己有提一個運產條例的修法提案等一下我投影片卡住那這個修法提案呢我們其實之前也有去跟經濟部討論過我們想要問勞動部是不是會支持目的事業主管機關針對相關產業工會去提供支持呢我們修訂的版本是在目前這個投影片上你所看到的我們增訂7支2條 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11686.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11704.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這篇寫法我們來直接看到下一頁好了我只有兩分鐘這邊我們想要看一下我們另外一個問題是之前部長不知道你有沒有注意到體育界其實長期都有不對等的權力關係我相信部長您在立法院或者是行政院工作很久上對下的壓迫問題其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11706.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11735.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
除了在我們學校的體育班現場在體育運動產業甚至是相關的行政工作職場一直都有類似的問題我相信部長您身為部長您現在應該更支持相關的勞動權益那我們之前呢要求體育署必須要去檢視相關的勞動工作環境因為我們認為相關的勞動環境的健全非常重要我們之前要求體育署要跟勞動部共同去檢查這個勞動環境結果呢體育署他們做一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11735.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11744.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
他們先回覆我們辦公室說他們有跟勞動部一起去清查那我們就問他們說你們找了勞動部的誰?勞動部給了什麼建議?勞動部去現場說了什麼?結果他們竟然才說實話說沒有啦委員我們沒有找勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11751.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11754.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
部長,你覺得這件事情有沒有很誇張?我第一次聽到耶我來瞭解好嗎?是是是那部長謝謝你的善意喔就是你第一次聽到我也看到你很驚訝對不對?是 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11766.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11773.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
部長我跟你說實話我看到這公文我也很驚訝怎麼會發生這樣的事情那想要繼續拜託勞動部健全職場工作環境有兩個比較具體的要求也許部長比較陌生我們辦公室很樂意再跟勞動部積極的討論第一個可不可以拜託勞動部在兩個月內由勞動部針對中華奧會還有國內各項體育單項協會尤其包含特定體育團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11789.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11794.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
在體育署的約聘僱對向國訓中心等等單位啟動專案勞檢確認勞動條件狀況跟有沒有執行職務遭受不法侵害的問題有沒有機會來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11801.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11822.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我會來研究看看再來評估把前述的對象跟職業還有業與運動團隊包含具有薪資給付事實的單位納入年度勞動檢查方針並且在三個月內提出評估報告就好了好我來研究看看好那我們辦公室是不是可以再跟勞動部積極的約開會討論好沒問題謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11829.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11842.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好謝謝接下來我們請鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前委員不在我們請黃珊珊委員質詢待會黃珊珊委員質詢結束之後我們休息5分鐘謝謝主席我請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11855.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11877.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11878.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11898.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
而且衛福部的調查是已婚女性高達22.7會因為生育離職40%不會再回到職場所以其實女性的勞動參與率一直沒有辦法提升部長我們您新任勞動部長您有什麼解方讓女性重回職場的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11899.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11927.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
對 這個就是我上任以後我特別關注這一塊因為尤其是我們我知道這個尤其婦女喔她其實在50歲以後那個勞產率是更最來勢的下降這樣解決她的問題才是真正讓少子化可能可以改善的方法所以第一個問題是我們現在目前相關的規定喔性別平等工作法裡面規定超過100人以上的事業單位要設所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11928.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11929.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我們有給企業獎勵但是只有獎勵因為沒有處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11950.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11964.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那如果我們法律規定在那邊又不處罰,只給獎勵,你認為提升的效率很高嗎?可是,是,我們當然就是應該要更加大宣傳啦對,金管會的主委常常請他們來喝咖啡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11965.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11980.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
你覺得我有能力請今晚會主委喝咖啡?不是,我說像今晚會主委會找銀行喝咖啡你可以找這些大企業喝咖啡或去拜訪,好嗎?這是第一個可能去拜訪還比較宣傳啦對,拜訪大比例的甚至公告公告誰達到了百分之多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11981.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12000.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
誰沒有答到方法很多請部長想辦法第二個部分就是為什麼不好不想因為上班有假不敢請有家庭照顧假有所謂的生理假目前為止勞基法都是性別工作平等法都是以日為單位但是公務員早就用小時來計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12001.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12028.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
您說家庭照顧假嗎?是的還有所謂的生理假我不能請幾個小時或者是我小孩去上個家長日是不是可以在勞基法或者性別共和平等法裏面增加以小時為單位這個是我覺得可以給女性很多的幫助周委員報告生理假現在可以以小時為單位喔對生理假放寬我們希望那家庭照顧假目前沒有親職假最重要的是我們這幾天開了記者會就是產假 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12029.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12041.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我們現在還是停留在20年前的8週世界上的趨勢已經是14週了部長為女性爭取至少開始往前走增加產價比照公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12043.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12045.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這也是我們希望勞動部新的部長能夠為勞工多說一點話 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12063.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12064.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12516.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12534.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請何欣辰 何欣辰 何欣辰委員不在 邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在 林德福 林德福 林德福委員不在徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在 我們請林淑芬委員質詢主席 各位大家午安 是不是要請我們這個部長好 請何部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12547.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12549.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
日本和韓國有職聘嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12570.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12585.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
日本韓國跟印度就是職聘模式你不要不要講說印度沒有G2G的模式有日本跟韓國就是然後你在今天一早委員問的時候你就說職聘要看國家有沒有能力是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12589.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12604.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
要看我們自己,因為我們是全新的經驗不是看國家有沒有能力,是看政府有沒有能力然後你們所值的理由還講說國內的仲介能力很強,你回答立委的質詢你說我們的執聘要在國內執聘先行,去聘這個大家都知道,我們不再談這一塊你說國內的仲介能力很強 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12613.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12625.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以這就是我們一直在跟你說的仲介這一塊制度我們過去的四個國家都全部放給仲介然後仲介的這個問題在哪裡大家都知道人口販運裡面的強迫勞動高額的抵債勞務訓練不足國家退位專業不足所以照護的專業不足然後呢買工費仲介費 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12639.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12642.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
這個就是高額的抵債勞務在這裡都涉及到人口販運和強迫勞動在這裡面而我們國家大家社會各個領域都在期待說開放印度的移工能不能有新的模式你們一直告訴我們說這一次要採雙軌制 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12659.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12678.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
可能會有G2G的就是仲介加G2G的模式但我們在這裡發現如果勞動部都不準備而且國家不願意介入而且政府不願意而不是不能喔那在民意上的雙軌實際上運作下來會只剩下單軌那我跟你講說啊人家韓國開放了韓國引進了幾個國家的移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12687.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12690.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我們全部臺灣引進幾個國家?臺灣是幾個國家的移工?我們現在四個國家嘛。四加一嘛。印度嘛,對不對?韓國幾個國家?印度還沒開始呢。OK,我知道。那你知道韓國引進了移工的國家有多少數量嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12706.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12733.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
十七個而我們現在只談一個印度要求你G to G國對國的模式只要求你一個連一個都不願意好好的做不願意國家不願意扛起這個責任這個不是國家有沒有能力是政府無能啊所以在這裡我們很多的人都跟你陳情說包括都反映說我們只 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12735.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12761.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
接看韓國模式他能夠運作的起來而且都是國對國的引進而且數量這麼多關鍵是他們有個space的系統你知道吧space的系統他們space的系統現在是不是AI時代大數據時代人工智慧管理的時代保證是不是?你連這種系統的做不出來也不管你做 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12763.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12766.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
你要說臺灣是AI大國整個資訊系統的政府整個醫化做得多好你知道嗎這個space系統把所有移工相關的部門串聯起來我們國家我們政府就是從來都不願意串聯起整個系統然後呢把不論是這個引進的這個許可併顧的許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12793.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12812.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
還有包括入出國業務的這個許可通通整合在一起而且要公開透明上網僱主可以上去看移工也可以上去看大家都可以使用這個系統包括簽證等等這樣整合在一起很困難嗎?這個系統會困難嗎?寶定你回答看看韓國的space系統對台灣來講困不困難? |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12818.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12829.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
委員我現在就是在請,我現在正在進行一個勞政友善化的計畫,我就是要求勞防署現在開始檢討,把所有的系統都整合在一起,然後減少...你們現在什麼系統對不對,串聯起各部會的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12834.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12834.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
市長,您有沒有辦法?市長,您來講快一點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12854.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12854.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12871.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12897.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
從一開始開放移工就做這種系統做這種制度做這種管理而我們已經幾十年了我們需要什麼哪裡需要整合怎麼整合整個界面要怎麼管理我們還會不知道嗎是沒有能力而不是喔不是是沒有心不是沒有能力啊政府退位不願意管那你們講部長你剛才講說重建能力很好署長我現在講space系統年底以前做不做得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12898.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12910.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我們來努力好第二個你說台灣的仲介服務很好能力很強你知道你們的仲介評鑑啊評鑑為合格的優良的仲介比例大概有多高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12918.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12923.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
你們去年11月發布的新聞稿A級的64.5% B級的30%所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良的仲介 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12934.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12961.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法三年免促進一天仲介沒辦法在跨國收取不當的仲介費沒辦法再剝削這些移工他們轉而在台灣境內台灣境內直接要付買工費而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付大家都要付除非你那10%的職聘續聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12965.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12967.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
委員,你知道賣工費的行情是多少錢嗎?一個議員要繼續在台灣續聘,要付多少賣工費?當然仲介一定有良誘,他一定有不好的決定這不是良誘喔,這每間每個都有起訴的喔!賣工費每個都有的喔! |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12988.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13012.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
每個都有,每家仲介都違法在說買工費在台灣發生,要付多少錢?買工費在我們這邊是非法的本來就違法的啊,您取締一年,你們從以前到現在取締多少件?我問你非法的,現在七十幾萬每個人都續聘的時候都要付呢?你才裁罰幾件? |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13016.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13024.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
發言所以我跟你講說這代表什麼你說能力很好仲介服務很好他們幹這種違法的勾當你們評鑑還是94%都是合格的優良的 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13029.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13038.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
而幹非法的事都還是A級的、B級的委員我可以跟您報告我有1775家仲介連續兩年憑藉A級只有478家好啦這478家有沒有收買工費你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎我告訴你我保證絕對有收買工費 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13049.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13055.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
委員你可以跟我檢舉好嗎你不要講檢舉這種事情你不負責任你們政府不願意管然後退位放任然後你叫立委跟你檢舉現在沒有政府啊你現在是什麼政府這麼好做叫立委來跟你檢舉我要你政府幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13068.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13092.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這樣子當政府這麼簡單啊那我再請教你現在RBA的移工零付費原則雇主自己去負擔買公費很多大企業都這樣子啦否則整個RBA整個國際形象就壞掉了那你這個要先行人家你們開會5月2號開會也有人也有委員在問啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13093.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13106.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則?要不要從這裡開始示範起?幾千個示範零付費原則有沒有可能示範? |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13109.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13125.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
國對國引進也不可能一個國家一個印度事辦一千人的規模你沒有辦法做出來Space系統要跟你們對如果這樣也要說零付費都顧著自己去負擔你也要標示一個人你有沒有辦法啊我們都一直在講說只能盡量努力啦高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13135.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13156.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以今天在這裡是政府過去一直都退位不願意管然後就全部交給仲介然後在這裡今天不會要求你這個示範計畫國對國不管你是雙軌還是單軌到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來就會變成仲介一軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13157.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13164.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
所以你的國對國模式你的space很重要然後你的G to G你要怎麼運作也很重要人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力工團你知道的?工團要做什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13174.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13197.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個是行政法人吧?對,他是行政法人。行政法人代表國家公權力呢?是啊。他們扛起什麼責任?韓國的國家扛起了選工、負責選工、負起技能訓練、負起居留服務等。然後國家還幫僱主委託,可以受理僱主委託代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約。 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13199.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13208.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這就是國家,我們的國家做什麼?我們的國家做什麼?委員我也很期待能這樣對,所以你要從這裡開始試驗但我要講說你從印度全立法院包括衛防委員會的委員到現在都沒有苛責你過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13216.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13223.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
也沒有要求你過去那四個國家的模式大家對你們的期待只不過是從現在印度模式事辦計劃一千人、一個國家一千人開始我們來讓出這一套運作的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13233.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13241.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以現在只是要求你這一千個移工的引進我們來找出一個新的模式我們把過去強迫勞動的高額抵債勞務的通通都給他改善掉國家扛起責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13248.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13275.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
不是只有中介有責任中介引進來的很多人沒有專業訓練沒有技能訓練沒有服務訓練很多雇主也不滿意啊這個服務也不專業啊可是人家韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務還可以幫你簽訂勞動契約所以再加上他們space系統我們還講說這才像是一個國家日本日本的模式他用什麼模式日本的國家做了什麼保定 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13278.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13296.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
日本引進印度勞工他們跟NSDC引進這個執行也是採G2G的模式而且大家都知道日本也是一個公法人在處理日本是國家公法人在處理啊他們根本沒有在討論仲介費因為沒有這種事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13299.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13318.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
而我現在看到你們的開會會議記錄包括我們的外交部都說外交部就印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見倘若初期採取國家政府職聘的方式引進他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口願意承擔起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13319.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13334.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
並依照勞動部的需求跟印方洽談為考量台印之間彼此能見度不足國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重所以他建議這是我講的是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13335.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13364.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
建議初期可以透過採取職聘方式引進優質印度移工讓台灣社會更加熟悉印度移工外交部說的外交部下一段說未來在市市場需求研議採取多元引進方式以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障外交部直接都建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13365.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13384.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
初期國對國引進外交部還有另外一點建議我念給你聽到印度方面執聘的機制除了NSDC以外還有一種是由印度政府指定所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式都不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13385.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13398.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
所以這個問題我們看是只有政府要不要做有沒有要扛起責任就只是這種態度而已而不是不能也不是不能也沒有印度方面拒絕沒有這一種事 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13402.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13405.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
所以在這裡我們真的是部長今天在這裡大家對MOU簽了看起來好像雙軌但是我自己個人很害怕最後變成單軌叫仲介跟以前一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13418.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13422.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那就落入了有一些在野黨的前立委講的嘴巴講出來的這個是不是有很大的哪一種利益已經在那裡先布局了有人這樣說嘛但我覺得不一定是嘛政府應該要採取破例案行動來證明國家願意扛起這個責任好謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢待會我們可以再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13448.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13450.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
接下來我們請陳英委員質詢好謝謝主席麻煩請勞動部部長以及發展署蔡署長好來部長署長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13473.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13494.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
委員好部長好我想就今天這個台印雙方引進勞工的合作備忘錄的部分首先我想要請教就是我們本委員會是採逐條審查那審查的意見有任何一個條文如果沒有通過的話這個MOU就會全部就退回這個勞動部不予查照 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13495.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13506.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那可是呢事實上MOU是外交部代簽的那實際的內容的擬定呢勞動部你們應該都有全程的主導跟掌控吧應該有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13507.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13531.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
有好那蔡署長我要請教就是說這個MOU的內容有很多的原則是跟現在其他引進這個外勞的國家外籍勞工的國家並不一樣那有些就跟這個就業服務法還有執法以及這個行政命令是有抵觸的我就先來舉個例子給你們看就是在第7條 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13535.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13556.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
在雙方領域內指定醫院對勞工健康檢查令勞工醫療費用應由健康保險及意外保險負擔勞工無力負擔時應由印度方協助解決這裡的醫療費用如果涉及懷孕生產是不是也由印度政府來協助解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13557.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13573.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
對,因為目前這個條約我就確認這個部分那現行的這個外籍勞工的這個來源政府來源國的政府例如印尼他們有沒有協助他們的這個外籍勞工來支付醫療費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13575.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13601.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
委員報告目前因為我們跟印尼沒有這個條文但是在雙邊會議當中我們都有提出應該由他來負責所以印尼我們沒有簽但是印度有這個條文對印尼的條文沒有特別加注那再來我們看第二個例子在第10條就無證的這些失聯的印度勞工收容及遣送由我方負責無證的勞工應支付收容遣返及 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13602.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13630.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
醫療費用,印度方應協助促進清償。那我要請教目前印尼外籍勞工的這個逃逸的遣送回國費用是由誰負擔?是不是原僱主?目前我們目前那個遣送費用是由非法僱主或非法媒介。好沒關係那如果是的話那為什麼印度的外籍勞工就要由他們的政府來協助解決? |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13631.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13634.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這些外籍勞工的遣返回國的費用有沒有規範在舊福法的執法或行政命令? |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13654.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13676.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
對,遣返費用目前在救護法有好,那如果有的話將來印度勞工逃逸的遣返為什麼是他們政府就要協助而印尼不用呢?這樣有沒有公平性的問題目前就是如果是屬於非法移工他要付的這個費用那如果他無法清償的話目前我們就希望是有來源國要負擔這樣的一個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13678.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13678.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
第三個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13696.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13711.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
上次4月25日的時候本席已經有質詢過勞動部變相有鼓勵逃逸的外籍勞工在台灣生小孩非法生小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13712.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13732.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我這樣講是有依據的啦當然你們不會寫得這麼明白但是有些政策就是變相的鼓勵那再來喔印尼政府呢已經其實對台灣的這些相關規定是非常不滿的他們是有聲音出來的因為我們這些規定其實都在製造他們的國內的社會問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13734.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13761.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
因為呢我這個我好好解釋一下因為印尼主要的信仰是伊斯蘭教那國情是相當的保守所以他們對於婚前性行為跟婚外情是零容忍所以呢我們再看一下他們目前的這個刑法的規定和婚外情的對象同居最高可求處一年有期徒刑2022年的時候12月6日他們已經有修法通過從2025年 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13764.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13788.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
開始即將生效就是未來發生婚外情將從現行的一年有期徒刑改成最高五年那此法也都適用在任何一位踏進印尼境內的外籍人士所以再來就是說根據這個印度政府簽署的這個MOU |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13792.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13798.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
但是呢,發展署給這些逃逸在台然後非法生小孩的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13817.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13837.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
的這個補助跟安置是不分國籍和全體適用的甚至還有享有這些生育假碼所以因為由於這個跟印方這個簽署的MOU還與我們這個現行的執法還有行政命令是有抵觸所以本席想確認的是你們勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13840.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13842.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
救福法那個規定是合法移工的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13866.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13885.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
對,是官方合法移工的權利部長你可能有所不知我當然知道你們的補助你們一定會講說補助是合法的勞工但是你們敢不敢跟我保證這當中沒有把非法的洗白然後撤掉他們逃逸的身份你敢說這一件都沒有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13886.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13900.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我今天敢在這裡講 所以我說部長你不知道啊 這個你可以回頭好好的去了解一下實際的狀況是什麼 到底有沒有這種洗白的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13902.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13929.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我們再來瞭解看看好嗎?對!請你們好好的去瞭解我今天講我們就有所本好不好?好!那也做這樣的提醒啦所以這就是為什麼我要一再的就是說一開始我要提醒就是說國民平等等一下對不起我漏掉了就是說最後一點我要問的是說如果這個MOU退回之後勞動部有沒有需要跟印尼重啟談判MOU的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13929.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13959.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那如果再重新簽署部長覺得說部長你會不會覺得人家跟我們會再重啟談判嗎應該蠻難的啦很難嘛所以這就是為什麼我一開始我要提醒就是說國民平等待遇原則下不能有不同國家的差別待遇那你們簽署的這個MOU有很多的原則是跟目前跟其他國家是不一樣那這裡面會不會有涉及修法的問題還有這個來源國本法本國法律的規定的問題這個都是要注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13959.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13989.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
因為MOU它是一個基本原則的備忘不是說我們想要重啟談判就可以隨時重啟的事情因為規範的是基本原則的問題所以原則都沒有辦法堅持的話就有我們的這個國格尊嚴的問題這是相當嚴重的問題啦所以希望勞動部可以謹慎處理而且就是說日前我們的許前部長這個失言引發了風波那勞動部跟外交部都有發新聞稿道歉嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13989.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14018.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
目前台印雙方合作其實就是越來越緊密莫迪總理的連任賴總統也親自恭賀也受到總理的公開善意的回應所以最後真的要好好的提醒我真的不希望說一個MOU還有重啟談判的風險所以一定要支持這個版本那我們今天就是要特別提醒不要造成不同國有不同制的問題如果萬一再引發爭議真的是一發不可收拾 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14019.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14019.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長好請何部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14052.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14068.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
委員好部長好部長本期在5月23日也在這個委員會有執行部長當時有提到就是因應社工人力是那勞動部要快速來公告修正這個外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第1款至第6款的 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14069.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14075.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
工作資格及審查標準,讓外國具有社工資格者也能在臺灣的民間團體來擔任社工師。 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14085.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14105.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
已經公告了已經公告了對已經公告了那就謝謝部長謝謝委員的協助幫忙這個公告之後就讓台灣有新的一批生意軍可以到台灣的社務界來做這樣的事情但是部長有要求幕僚去做盤點這樣會增加多少生意軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14106.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14123.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
你是指社公司部分嗎?對對對外籍的這個就是說我們已經公告了嘛只有幾十個目前因為他要有考到我們的證照社公司要有證照現在只是允許他可以去考證照應該是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14123.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14138.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
二十幾個二十幾個而已對二十幾位二十幾位也不錯啦是啦 是沒有錯啦 杯水抽薪還是還是有朝正向的發展去嘛但是如果只有二十幾位未來會不會再增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14139.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14162.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我們來鼓勵、來擴大宣傳對啊,因為這一兩年如果他的人數是往上在提升的那對台灣的這樣的一個社會公司的缺額的問題會有一定程度的效益可能很多僑外生還不知道有這件事對,我們來擴大宣傳對啊,這可以做你偶後政策相關的一些依據來大力來把這事情做好嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14163.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14164.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
這是觀光署向國防會提案 那麼我們來配合開放這樣子 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14182.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14203.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
但是部長有去思考幾個問題嗎?現在當然是這個旅宿業的缺工非常嚴重,沒有錯嘛,所以才會朝這個方向要來做嘛但是我有聽過這個中華民國旅館商業同業工會的這個楊理事長特別表示台灣中小型的旅館職務編制、培訓與升遷體制都不像觀光旅館一樣齊全 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14204.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14204.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
韓國瑜表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14221.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14240.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
不可能說一個政策滿足所有的人沒有錯我們只是想說盡量來幫忙那麼因為幫協助企業解決缺工也確實是勞動部的責任那麼我們希望能夠開放這個東西其實是希望能夠增加多元勞動力的供給把人才留下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14241.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14260.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那麼像新籍旅館他會他比較有能力禁用僑外生啦憑良心講因為他薪資條件比較好中小型旅館可能會比較難因為他的薪資條件就是比較低啊所以這個中真的中小型旅館我們會來另外再來想想其他方式可是我們有一塊很重要對於本土 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14261.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14287.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我們很重要的是要推動本土婦女跟中高齡的就業啦齁在中小型旅館在這一塊其實是空間很大那麼在這部分可能要配合就是包括獎勵啦我們再更推動獎勵然後來協助中小型旅館來做這一塊的禁用部長就講到重點了齁講到獎勵嘛就政策上來鼓勵嘛對不對是是是對可是這應該不是只有勞動部一部有辦法去完成的事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14288.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14313.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
現在針對婦女跟中高齡的獎勵是我這邊主要在推啦對,好,那妳是在這個群組嘛,這個族群嘛對不對我覺得可以針對這個族群,尤其是中小型旅館這個族群,我們可以來加大來推動對象就是中高齡,對嗎?服務業就是針對中小型的旅宿業嘛對啊你要把這個套在這個地方嘛對,而且這一塊本來就是所以單憑勞動部一起之力就夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14314.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14331.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我們也要配合觀光署還有交通部因為我們有異後改善缺工擴大方案就是針對旅宿業而去做的設計的一個獎勵方案這樣子其實現在也已經禁用不少人有上萬人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14332.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14352.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
目前有上萬人進到這個旅宿業有進到旅宿業嗎?沒有吧?比例多少?一兩萬人是比例多少?沒關係,你總是有做嘛對不對?就請部長回應我的,一兩萬人比例多少是進到你講的這個旅宿業? |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14355.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14373.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
差不多多少嗎?因為這個...我們要來看你的需求是怎樣?我跟你講,那個我們資料可以給提供委員,大概目前他們的需求大概不到三千人,超過我們的專案。我們的協助大概沒有...你講的他的需求不到三千人?是指旅宿業嗎?中小型的旅宿業嗎?對,就是旅宿業。那你用一兩萬人? |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14378.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14389.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那現在就是說我們媒合經過它的僱用之後其實目前的就業媒合就業其實比例大概超過50%以上啦這個還在處理這個理事長對外發表這樣的一個言論是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14403.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14404.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
三千是他新提出的需求啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14429.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14456.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
是他最近提出的新的需求說有3000的移工需求啦所以因為我們沒有辦法在這個時候開放服務業引進移工所以我們必須想辦法比如補足橋外生這一塊比如橋外生這一塊也許可以有一些補充那麼針對中小型旅館我們另外再來設計針對婦女跟中高齡的開發在這部分的勞動力來禁用這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14457.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14463.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
我一直覺得部長你跟莊講的是不太一樣的範圍你們這個內容好像怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14464.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14483.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
你現在講的說,現在這個理事長他提出來的,你們已經有備案了嗎?簡單講是這樣嗎?對不對?不是說備案,是我本來就在進行這個東西。針對婦女跟中高齡本來就是我優先推動的本土勞動力的開發。是啊,你還沒有就任部長前應該就在推了嗎?應該是這麼說嗎?還是你上任之後開始推嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14488.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14510.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
對對對對是啊這個本來就是我們要優先推動本土勞動力啦的開發啦這裡有56萬呢但我們因為必須讓缺工不等於低薪所以不能用移工來解決這個不能不能就簡單回答我一句話就好你現在要推的這一個我們本土的中高齡高齡者可以來到這個職場的什麼時候開始可以就是上班的 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14511.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14526.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
現在已經在進行在進行對現在這個就是你現在已經補足多少進去嗎簡單講就好了他們的這個算所謂的3000缺額的提供也是最近的事情啦啊這個都是他們覺得說要引進移工的數字啦是 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14527.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14547.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
對,那這三千人我們現在也可以針對用婦女跟中高齡來補啦。那我們希望能夠就是用獎勵方案嘛。原來就有針對婦女跟中高齡的獎勵方案。是啦是啦,我知道啦。就是你現在已經在做了嘛,對不對?對,希望能夠擴大來做。這個人員到位是什麼時候嘛? |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14548.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14562.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
希望能盡快啊,我們現在先,我們要下去來處理這樣子,對。所以現在就是已經這個政策已經啟動嘛,但是基本上...欸,政策啟動早就啟動了。對,人還沒有到位啊?這樣不是,是那個... |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14564.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14591.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
我相信中小型旅館這邊的缺工當然我們就是來協助我時間到了好不好你這個專案是不是就給我給我詳細的資料我來參考再提出相關的建言好不好好謝謝謝謝好謝謝本日會議詢答全部結束委員林益君、楊耀、盧憲一、楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報做以下決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14592.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14621.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員令要求其限則從其鎖定現在進行審查本案比照行政命令一例不宣讀條文不足條審查一立法院職權行使法第62條規定請就本案有無違反變更或抵觸法律法律者 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14622.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14639.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
或因以法律規定之事項而以命令定之者進行處理。那我們現在先請委員表示意見。好那我們先休息五分鐘協商一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15494.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
15494.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
15567.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
15588.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
主席主席要求發言我跟大家報告因為大家也都非常對這件事情這個MOU大家都有很多的因為那個國民黨這邊蘇衛原要發言那我們現在就我們黨團也溝通過所以跟大家報告一下講話一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
15590.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15607.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
我看差距也不大啦,也沒有什麼衝突性啦對於MOU這些條文原則上我們是沒有很大的意見的要嘛就退回要嘛就修正嘛那有一些修正動議民進黨這邊也提了國民黨也提了所以我剛剛的討論結果建議啦就是出委員會然後我們兩個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15615.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15619.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
內,就兩個禮拜後,做一次協商,一次委員者,然後把今天的負擔決議,勞動部你要把這個配套給人家洗洗好洗,你不可以讓我們這裡讓你出委員會都說MV沒意見啊,條文沒意見啊,你現在都不認同,三個了又沒認同,我們沒意思啊,對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15639.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15658.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我具體建議是這樣那個基本上那個主席跟所有我們大家意見差異不大我們對文本基本上我還沒有聽到有反對的那現在對附帶決議可能是爭執在這裡那我的建議是這樣子國民黨這個王明明早委所提案的這個附帶決議裡面如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15661.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15674.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
如果有局部文字修正我們大家可以通過的話那根本也不用再寫上一次就照你們的附帶決議跟文本今天就可以出文會通過了這樣比較順利啦因為兩個禮拜後議題還是一樣那我看到這個文本裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15676.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15702.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
還有我們的我現在是說我們大家來討論嘛就是說國民黨的負債決議的內容裡面有一個說明文定定因為明文沒有當立委了嘛就因明文定定執聘引進比例那我把這個明文明文定定執聘比例因為我們剛才講這個執聘比例這樣寫明文定定就會有產生一些問題是把明文改成具體原意 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15703.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15729.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
具體研議這樣子後面的文字都不要動然後大家可以來接受國民黨這個這個附帶決議我不知道召委決定怎麼樣就是說因為你明文訂定比例這切到企業介紹各方面那我們如果說請勞動部因具體研議訂定後面的文字都不動了那我們用這個附帶決議加上文本一併通過用最大公式給它通過不要再拖兩星期這個以上建議看召委怎麼才是 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15732.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15738.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
好來我們現在委員表示意見了等一下是林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15740.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15764.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
那個那個我要說我其實坦白說我自己心裏面也會很希望有一個具體的職聘的比例你問我的話我個人真的希望可是我知道這件事情以現在要來做要明定一個數字的難度坦白說是蠻高的我說原因在幾個地方第一件事情這件事情的關鍵是在我們怎麼把職聘這一軌如何真正做到有競爭力 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15766.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15791.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
當能夠把它做到有競爭力的時候企業就比較願意來採取這個軌道可是如果我們沒有辦法把這一軌做到有競爭力的時候那他會選擇哪一軌就是企業本身的選擇或者是印度移工進來的時候哪一軌的選擇所以我覺得我們應該具體要求的點應該是在於怎麼要求勞動部把執聘這一軌真正做到有競爭力 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15793.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15809.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
實際上做到好用所以今天有一些國家今天一些委員在質詢裡面有提到有一些國家成功的案例或具體的案例我覺得這個事情是要求勞動部把它寫進去來做很明確的參考的我覺得這個才比較有助於我們把執聘這一軌給做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15810.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15839.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
甚至未來在執聘這一軌的比例越來越高我覺得關鍵是這一點不然如果我們今天確實訂了某一個比例比如說假設我今天訂50%我訂了50%可是到時候我執聘這一軌真的做得不好的時候到時候其實這個目標本身它的意義就不是那麼大我必須說坦白說可是我自己當然希望這個比例可以越高越好我自己當然是這樣希望可是關鍵是在我們怎麼要求勞動部把執聘這一軌真正的在做法上面做到好 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15839.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15841.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
這是大家要求的重點好了我們請林淑芬委員好各位不過我還是要回應一下洪委員的想法就是說國對國執聘這一軌沒有所謂的競爭力的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15867.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15879.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
因為它不是一個商業競爭而且現在的企業已經走在政府和國家的前面了現在是大財團、大企業來拜託政府說你給我們國對國職聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15881.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15899.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
現在企業是這樣子來拜託政府的因為政府沒有國對國執聘那現在國際的壓力國際品牌形象的壓力RBA的原則他們都已經在這樣子看待企業了所以我們看到比如說星光他們還要求說給我們國對國執聘所以RBA的準則放進來的話移工零付費這個東西這個就是一個趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15908.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15915.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
一個趨勢而且國際的壓力真的很大所以我才說他沒有所謂競爭力的問題是企業需要而我們今天印度的事辦計劃裡面你要求資格引進勞工的廠商僱主的資格是印度要有設廠台灣也有廠這一種資格都是大企業而且這一種資格大企業都想要國對國執聘了 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15937.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15955.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
所以我們才說事辦計畫可以這樣子先來做那具體我在這裡還是建議就是說當然是把國對國職聘的模式運作出來它不是基於競爭力的這個因素而已國對國的職聘模式運作出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15956.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15976.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
建立一個好的模式這很重要而今天這好的模式必須有幾個要點第一個最重要是要有韓國的管理系統的跨部會的整合而且公開透明僱主和移工本人都可以上去操作不要被仲介壟斷不要因為資訊不對等文化語言不對等而沒有辦法使用這一個可進性沒有辦法進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15983.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15997.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
所以我們要求你的書面報告,勞動部你提出一個試辦計畫的書面報告。書面報告裡面要有三項的東西。第一個,要訂出像韓國SPACE的建制的計畫和期程。 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
16000.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
16012.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
計劃內容要有你預計完成的期程是什麼第二個我們都知道日本韓國的模式都是公法人行政法人就是國家要有角色絕對不能退位國家絕對不能夠缺席那麼我們在台灣我們國對國職聘我們的專責機構是什麼你的計劃內容要寫出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
16025.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
16054.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
有國家要專責的單位然後有專業的系統然後可進性高然後呢你第三點第三點當然是比較困難不過也是可以可以寫出來就是我們召委今天要求的訂出職聘的國家的期待的比例國家期待但真正的運作會怎麼樣當然是不得而知嘛但國家要有期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
16057.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
16077.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
韓國引進17個國家全部都國對國職聘我們現在要求印度一個國家一個印度一個模式你難道對光是示範計畫一千人你當然可以期待多少比例一千人而已但第二階段到時候再說嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
16078.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
16106.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
連外交部都說他建議剛開始就要執辦國對國連外交部最保守最不愛做的外交部的人當時會去向你答應說我願意承擔而外交部在5月2日勞動部開會裡面竟然直接建議我們願意他願意協助而且直接建議第一階段就是國對國職聘外交部說第二階段再來談多元開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
16107.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
16122.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
所以我還是據你建議這三點這三點很重要請大家支持好謝謝林淑芬委員那請問還有沒有委員要發言好來洪森漢委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
16128.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
16154.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
我講一下齁,剛剛蜀芬文我剛剛講的競爭力的意思不是競爭力,我講競爭力的意思是他要相比於仲介這一軌要夠好用也就是剛剛說的不管是可敬性或者是操作的難易度甚至能夠讓大家在要做要是用國對國的過程裡面成本能夠降低這是所謂讓他的競爭力提高的意思是相對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
16156.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
16163.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
相對於在在仲介這一軌上面的競爭力要提高我是補充到這邊對 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
16203.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
16209.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
好那委員都發言完畢現在有兩個附帶決議我們先宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
16214.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
16231.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
附帶決議第一案為有效減輕僱主及印度移工經濟負擔、簡化執聘流程及文件勞動部應規劃僱主執聘引進印度移工的執聘服務精進計畫除設置專責單位並建置執聘印度勞工的選工資訊系統請勞動部於三個月內將規劃執聘方式引進印度移工事辦計畫之書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
16239.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
16260.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
寒送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員黃秀芳、林月琴、王振旭、陳盈、劉建國、羅美玲。第二案為因應臺印雙方簽署駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄後將引進印度移工入臺。原要求一 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
16261.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
16285.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
勞動部應指定或設立專責機構推動政府對政府直接聘僱並擬定績效指標二、勞動部應明文定定職聘引進比例同時提供職聘僱主優因例如減免就業安定費或提供優先選工等提案人委員王育敏、盧憲一、蘇清泉、廖偉祥、屠泉吉、陳金輝、邱振軍、徐曉新、陳永康宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
16288.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
16299.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
那針對這兩個附帶決議,勞動部有沒有意見?兩項附帶決議都同意嗎?那請問委員有沒有意見?都沒有意見?那這兩項附帶決議就通過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
16316.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
16333.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
好 做以下決議 駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄之中、英及印地文文本影本案 審查完略 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
16334.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
16360.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
準予備查,免具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時由王昭吉委員譽名補充說明。是否交由黨團協商?不用協商?好。本次會議一事入、授權由主席核定後確定。本次會議到此結束,現在散會。 |