| IVOD_ID |
160392 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160392 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-21T09:32:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-21T09:47:41+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:41 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c8db099b95456f1b0dd5119736a8127fe7a7b5a1fcb72359eba3b85e23f7c4a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:32:00 - 09:47:41 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 麻煩有請法務部部長調查局局長要協助可以一起上來部長好 局長好今年部長 |
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在辦調查局局長交接的時候下令要強化偵辦國安案件我今天看了法務部的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
44.151 |
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針對國安案件你們整理出了三種嚴重的類型一個是科技掏空一個是借選滲透一個是發展組織利用軍人拍攝投降影音這個是今天法務部所提出來的書面報告這部長名字掛的報告部長很清楚請問一下部長現在色誘透過色誘的方式來吸收成為共諜的類型嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.426 |
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因為媒體說很嚴重嘛但你們的書面報告裡面提都沒提啊我想說是活在平行時空啊還是法務部在寫報告的時候有一些特殊的地雷要閃不敢寫色誘的類型嚴不嚴重媒體說很嚴重啊你們法務部的報告半個字都沒提啊嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
100.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
119.811 |
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你總知道什麼類型嚴重 知道往哪邊加強偵辦啊那種被色誘的 輕功舔中的照片出來了就說是deep-seek結果給調查局去鑑定鑑定完的結果又不敢跟社會大眾講丟人現眼啊丟人現眼啊不是假訊息不是身為 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
129.537 |
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155.115 |
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啊法務部的報告半個字都不敢提來現在啊綠色共諜啊攻佔我們民主進步黨的府院黨啊這個在法務部報告的第幾類型啊因為我看那三個類型這裡面沒有辦法歸類為任何一類啊今天法務部的報告是不是要考慮重寫增設第四類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
159.315 |
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167.35 |
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部長請回答這邊我們是以整理目前較多的一個主要的這樣還不夠多一個報告這樣子還不夠多 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
171.143 |
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197.725 |
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這樣還覺得少就對了這個應該這個這個綠色所謂什麼這個共諜橫行那這部分我們都有查緝這個也是我們根據我們這些的一個情資而查到的我們一個一個來啦現在我在挑戰的是你法務部今天送來立法院的報告寫的對不對完不完整嘛這個我們寫的都說很正確就是把所有我們所謂的類型呈現出來嘛這個是放在第幾類型你指教的話我們再來加強嘛好 |
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198.766 |
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我就是有指教嘛 放不進你那三個類型嘛 那就請你加強嘛那這個類型的話我們可以 我們這是主要的類型嘛那我們並沒有否認所有 剛剛委員就講這些的一個類型好 我們一步一步來喔現在何仁杰遭到羈押吳釗燮長期待在身邊的親信針對何仁杰洩露國家機密這樣子的犯行 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
225.782 |
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226.705 |
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目前偵辦吳釗燮該不該一起偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
233.524 |
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258.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個吳秘書長有沒有這些的一個問題我想這個是我不會干涉指導 干涉介入個案那這個檢察官如果有證據的話我想任何人只要涉及共諜我想檢察只有犯罪群體就會依法來偵辦說得很好嘛那大家就接著看嘛看是不是有偵辦嘛我現在喔 部長你看一下我上面寫不是要不要喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
259.369 |
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272.033 |
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要不要交給檢察官嘛現在我在談的是規範的事情是該不該嘛之前我公開記者會講過啦在國安法裡面就有關於洩漏國家機密的事情有沒有處罰過失犯這個是有處罰過失犯這個有處罰過失犯嘛這個過失的態樣要如何來加以界定應該注意沒有注意能夠注意卻沒有注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
288.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
300.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
養一個共諜在他身邊那麼久洩漏了國家機密他有沒有注意義務他有注意義務吧他有盡到他的注意義務嗎來 請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
304.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
315.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個是指過失或是指過失的一個洩漏交付等等的這些的一個行為嘛而不是說旁邊有供點的話他就那些就所以嘛現在部長在解釋法條的時候順便就把五招線給開脫了嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
320.902 |
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342.416 |
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沒什麼開脫啦 就是有合乎到犯罪的過程要見當然檢測只有犯罪性檢察官就會立案沒關係啊 全體國人大家都睜大眼睛繼續看嘛看我們檢察官辦案的標準嘛有沒有雙標嘛這個沒有雙標就依法偵辦有犯罪行為就是依法嚴判我們繼續往下看 何仁杰他受國家機密保護法26條列管的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
345.072 |
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359.167 |
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這個我去調過了這個問題我問了非常久發函給外交部啊外交部是用普通件不是用密件回函所以確認了何仁杰他是國家親密保護法26條啊列管的對象下一個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
362.066 |
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384.065 |
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針對有關於涉及國家安全的查核工作今天局長有報告嘛是屬於調查局負責幫忙查核的範圍嘛有一般的安全查核有特殊的安全查核就何仁傑的部分他算不算是屬於特殊安全考核的對象之一何仁傑他有經過一次的這個特殊查核什麼時候105年5月105年5月來看一下局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
389.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
417.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
只有一次嘛 來看一下涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法第五條第一項的規定第五條第一項說各機關辦理特殊查核應該在他出任在任或轉任第二條鎖定職務前辦理完畢所以你講的2016年的查核指的是他剛開始進入國家安全會議的時候所進行的查核嗎是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
418.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
445.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那他到2017年隨著吳釗燮去總統府秘書長辦公室的時候有沒有在查核這個部分有還是沒有沒有在為什麼沒有按照法條的規定不是應該要在辦查核嗎那個是要由機關的人事單位來通知我們所以是總統府沒有通知總統府秘書長是沒有通知所以沒有辦就有關和人節的部分就是查過2016年對嘛現在喔 局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
446.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
458.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們是法律人啦所以我把法條翻出來給你看嘛我們一條一條來不要混在一起講啦第一個按照法律的規定他從國安會到總統府秘書長了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
460.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
475.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
需不需要再辦查核按照法條的規定他在載任或出任載任或是調任這個特殊查核職務這是不是調任是嘛應該要辦應該要辦嘛說清楚嘛法條說應該要辦卻沒有辦現在我問題來了法條說他轉任應該要辦但是卻沒有提報上來要辦這個責任誰要負這個應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
490.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
511.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
推給人事機構的人說最基層的那個人事機構的人扛責對嘛現在就是法規上應該要做現實上沒有在做所以我才請教你嘛這件事情誰要負責還是沒有人需要負責反正清拆瞎下來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
514.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
526.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
誰要負責這個是人事行政總署人事行政總署要負責喔哇 你這樣講可能人事長多在辦公室裡面想說我躺在床上也中槍蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
529.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
557.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
總統府秘書長是沒有報查核結果是人事長要負責這樣對嗎沒有法條是人事行政總署主管啦好好好沒有關係那個可能到時候主席再排一下請人事長來啊因為調查局局長說他要負責啊沒有我是我要講清楚法條是人事行政總署主管但是這個要提出查核是用人機關要主管是嘛就是用人機關嘛那用人機關不就是吳釗燮嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
560.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
584.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
到外交部的時候他有沒有在辦查核沒有嘛 是不是沒有來來來 看一下啦 剛剛你講的一千多種我都幫你整理出來了嘛外交部秘書 辦理部長室秘書業務人員 辦理部長室機要業務啊這個不就是何仁傑的位置嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
586.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
608.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
到外交部的時候還有在辦特殊查核嗎有嗎 沒有吧所以現在變成的是什麼 用人機關要負責嘛總統府秘書長要負責嘛外交部部長要負責嘛都是吳釗燮待在身邊的人辦一次 後來都不用辦那不是吳釗燮要負責 誰要負責來 再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
613.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
616.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
吳尚宇有沒有辦特殊查核一樣啦這個是當初副總統辦公室的參議啦他有沒有辦特殊查核有還是沒有他為什麼可以不辦特殊查核放在副總統辦公室耶處理機密業務耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
639.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
654.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
結果現在這個共諜才發現原來我們的安全查核機制啊是形同具穩啦 形同具穩啦不僅和人節 和人節只辦一次 吳尚宇是連辦都沒有辦過誰要負責 誰要負責 用人機關要負責 剛剛你講的嘛所以現在清德要負責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
664.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
689.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
他辦公室的人啊人事單位要負責又推給人事人員啊人事單位要主動喊給我們來特殊查核是不是可以請調查局回去追究今天發函給用人機關依法該查核為什麼沒有查核你如果連這件事情都不敢做今天來這邊報告安全查核機制不是很好笑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
690.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
709.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們已經討論出來了嘛所以我現在要你問他嘛你當初為什麼沒有送來辦查核這不是國家安全的漏洞嗎法規上面應該要查核 現實上沒有查核如果這樣不是個問題 那什麼是問題如果這不是問題 什麼是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
717.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
721.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
還是試射我們現在的總統很尷尬問都不敢問皮球踢來踢去現在不想要怎麼踢太尷尬了現在被抓起來這個連查核都沒查核蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
743.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
757.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這不是檢討制度的問題而已啊這個是依照現在的制度應該要做卻沒有做但是我們負責查核的機關法務部調下去顯然不敢追究責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
759.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
783.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
報委員 這個責任不是我們調查局要去追究我知道嘛 所以我要你去追究責任嘛在整個體制裡面我們是被動 我知道所以我要你發文去問用人機關啊機關什麼時候要用人 他要調什麼人這個是機關的人事的事件我們也不會知道沒錯 你說的都對所以我要你去問嘛去問用人機關啊你當初怎麼沒有報這個人來給我們調查局查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
785.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
809.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我想這個不是我們調查局的這個不是你們調查局的喔應該要報給你們 卻沒有報給你們還不是調查局的職責 那是誰的職責這個才是最大的問題嘛對嘛 但是沒有人敢去追究用人機關的責任嘛事情不就是這樣嗎 超級清楚的沒有人敢去追究啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
816.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
837.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
來 請教一下部長我們洩密的對象啊洩漏給一般的國家跟洩漏給中國啊刑責上啊 法定刑應不應該區別對待 贊不贊成加重對中國洩密的刑責 贊不贊成這是一個立法政策的問題是 所以你贊不贊成這個要廣納意見要廣納意見嘛當初啊 邱泰山反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
842.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
870.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他很明確啊 邱太三反對啊那奇怪了我們的總統不是把中國講成制定境外敵對勢力洩密給境外敵對勢力當然要加重處罰啊結果現在法務部要強化國安 要防止洩密連洩密給中國法定刑要提高這件事情都不敢講怕尷尬喔 怕尷尬是不是因為之前民進黨政府反對過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
874.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
897.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
之前邱泰山反對過啊我第一次當立委的時候為了這個事情跟邱泰山辯論了幾次他反對啊到院會表決的時候民進黨一再阻擋不處理拖到二零二九年拖到二零一九年不得不處理了最後是什麼最後把提高對中國洩密的處罰封殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
902.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
915.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
把提高對中國泄密的處罰封殺啊難怪你今天只能夠軟軟的說要廣納社會意見法務部連這個基本態度都不敢表達被封殺了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
916.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
937.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你可以請你的幕僚把整個立法的歷程整理給你看啦在立法院公報裡面通通都有啦我希望喔我也利用這個機會公開呼籲我們國家機密保護法洩密給中共加重處罰台灣民眾黨立院黨團已經提案了希望招點審議到時候希望法務部能夠勇敢的支持謝謝 |