| IVOD_ID |
16021 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16021 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-20-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-19T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-19T11:44:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:14:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e5292db7196bde6699b5fa2f296a9353419186e52af12443275947f9f99c58a0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」17案：
(一) 本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。
(二) 本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。
(三) 本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。
(四) 本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。
(五) 本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。
(八) 本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。
(九) 本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。
(十) 本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。
二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：
(一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。
(二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。
(三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。
【6月17日及19日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 11:44:00 |
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| transcript.pyannote[2700].end |
11756.77596875 |
| transcript.pyannote[2701].speaker |
SPEAKER_00 |
| transcript.pyannote[2701].start |
11753.41784375 |
| transcript.pyannote[2701].end |
11753.65409375 |
| transcript.pyannote[2702].speaker |
SPEAKER_00 |
| transcript.pyannote[2702].start |
11755.05471875 |
| transcript.pyannote[2702].end |
11755.96596875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1875.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1878.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
大家早安現在繼續開會請醫事人員宣讀今日議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1881.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1887.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案等6案。三、本院委員吳立華等17人擬具財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1906.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1931.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條條文修正草案五、本院委員黃建豪等21人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第12條條文修正草案六、本院委員王航威等24人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條第12條及第30條條文修正草案七、本院委員陳昌明等17人、委員邱振軍等19人分別擬具財政收支劃分法第8條第12條及第16條之一條文修正草案等二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1932.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1952.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
8、本院委員賴瑞榮等16人、委員蔡玉儀等16人分別擬具《財政收支劃分法》第16條之一條文修正草案等二案9、本院委員賴世保等29人擬具《財政收支劃分法》第16條之二、第37條之二及第38條之二條文修正草案10、本院委員賴世保等22人擬具《財政收支劃分法》第38條之一條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1953.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1977.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
二、審查財政收支劃分法第三案一、本院委員張家俊等27人擬具財政收支劃分法第4條、第8條及第12條條件修正草案二、本院委員楊瓊瑛等32人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第37條條件修正草案三、本院委員鄭天才等18人擬具財政收支劃分法增訂第30條之一及第30條之二條件修正草案宣導完畢介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1981.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2006.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
現場賴仕寶、賴委員黃珊珊、黃委員李坤澄、李委員明德福、林委員介紹、城政部部長莊翠雲法制處代理處長黃慧玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2010.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2033.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
國庫署署長陳柏成副稅署署長宋秀琳行政院主計總處主計長陳淑芝公務預算處處長徐永毅內政部民政司專門委員劉立芳 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2038.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2047.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
國土管理署檢任視察朱偉庭國家發展委員會經濟發展處專門委員郭永騰民族民族委員會綜合規劃處專門委員曾欣忠環境部大氣環境師檢任計政孫中偉華部參事林峰文 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2070.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2097.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好,今天安排的議程是一、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具財政收支劃分法修正草案等17案二、審查委員張家俊等27人擬具財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案案三、審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2099.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2125.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
楊瓊瑛等32人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第37條條文修正草案案四、審查委員鄭天才等18人擬具財政收支劃分法徵定第30條之一及第30條之二條文修正草案案現在請議事人員、宣讀委員張家俊等27人 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2126.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2139.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
委員楊瓊英等32人及委員鄭千采等18人分別擬具之條文。預計宣讀時間將在3分鐘。宣讀完畢以後就開始進行協商。請宣讀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2144.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2163.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
委員張家俊等27人提案第4條刪除委員張家俊等27人提案第8條除第2項前段修正為前項第一款之所得稅總收入25%第4款之營業稅總收入減除1.5%作為積增經費及依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之全部收入外其餘軍團委員許宇甄等16人提案第8條 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2164.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2189.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
委員楊雄英等32人提案第8條第一項未修正第二項修正為前項第一款之所得稅種收入15%應由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市第三項同委員洪孟楷等22人提案第8條第三項第四項除中段修正為應由中央統籌分配直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市外區域同委員洪孟楷等22人提案第8條第四項第五項除台灣省各縣市修正為縣市外區域 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2190.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2217.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
同委員洪孟楷等22人提案第8條第6項委員張家俊等27人提案第12條同委員林思銘等20人提案第12條委員鄭天才等18人提案第30條之二中央應編列一般性補助款以補助原住民族地區基本設施及維持所需經費傾向經費應由中央原住民族主管機關就原住民族地區之需要統籌編列之委員鄭天才等18人提案第30條之一中央各主管機關應就下列4項編列計劃型補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2219.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2247.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
以協助原住民族及原住民族地區均衡發展一、原住民族教育、文化、語言及體育二、原住民族就業、衛生、醫療及社會福利三、原住民族經濟、產業及土地開發利用四、原住民族地區住宅基礎設施及公共建設五、原住民族地區飲水設施、水利交通六、都市原住民之健康、安居、融資、就學、語言、文化、就養、就業、經濟、就醫及社會適應事項其其他原住民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2248.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2257.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
及原住民族地區均衡發展之相關計劃。中央對原住民族地區之鄉鎮施工所推動原住民族重要建設及專案性計劃應全額補助。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2259.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2280.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
委員楊瓊英等32人提案第37條,除第二項後段修正為其經費之負擔由各立法層級政府負擔第三項同憲刑法條文及第四項之第二項及前項修正為前二項外區域軍統委員洪孟楷等22人提案第37條,委員張家俊等27人提案附表一、附表二均刪除宣傳並 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2288.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2317.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那因為今天院會那邊有在開啦齁所以大家以討論為主如果沒有意見再往前走讓大家多充分的討論那最重要的是財政部要有版本出來啦齁那所以等一下請各位多多發表意見再補充介紹郭國文、郭昭偉吳立華、吳委員好現在進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2354.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2374.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
各位委員長因為我們這個提案大概算一算有20個版本相當相當的多是不是在我們開始要逐條之前有沒有委員有沒有補充說明或看法請黃珊珊黃委員接著請賴思寶委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2379.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2401.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好的,謝謝昭緯還有各位同仁以及部長、主席長我想昨天我們大概台灣民眾黨已經開了一個記者會把台灣民眾黨的版本說得蠻清楚不過我們還會再提一個修正動議因為我們當時本來怎麼配套有一些東西我們還是認為說如果可以調整我們其實是可以盡快的來做修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2402.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2427.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那第二個部分就是版本上面的差異真的很多那我們也希望真的看到財政部的態度那部長這邊我也知道你們在分配都已經有一定的原則跟方式我們也希望把這些原則跟方式我們把它很明確化、制度化甚至原則性的部分不要把它寫得非常死但是基本的標識、指標我們也能夠理清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2428.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2456.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
讓地方政府能夠有所依循第三個部分就是金額的部分當然我們不希望又變成另外一次互相噴口水的議案我們希望它就是一個務實到底我們提的版本國民黨各個委員提的版本甚至還有民進黨有些委員地方需要提的版本其實我們都希望知道它的差異在哪裡財政部對這些版本的態度在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2457.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2476.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那最重要的是我們希望不要影響到中央的運作我們當然知道中央運作的經費也很重要所以我們沒有要把它回復到25年前的精神前的比例那我們希望說在這樣的一個折衷的情況下大家可以找到一個共識訣那更重要的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2477.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2505.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
在地方上面大家上次看到各縣市到台北到這個公廳會來他們光喊的錢大概就是2000多億那還不包括幾個直轄市包括高雄所以加一加3000多億可能都是他們需要但是我們也知道有一些縣市他的確沒有這個能力執行這麼多的預算那我們也希望把他的指標跟不管是分配跟將來的監管的方式也都可以明確的入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2506.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2523.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那這些我覺得都是開放的態度也希望大家可以拿出自己的各自的想法然後在這裡尤其財委會我向各位委員我們這個委員會應該是比較沒有那麼多政治對立的地方所以我們希望這裡是一個很好溝通的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2524.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2526.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
民眾黨的部分我們這邊很清楚的就是希望在兩個原則第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2540.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2554.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
不影響中央正式運作過多的情況第二個能夠成立一個將來公開透明的分證委員會這兩個大概是我們比較堅持的原則其他的部分就要聽聽大家開放的意見我們沒有既定的立場我們希望充分的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2556.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2579.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
謝謝好 謝謝黃珊珊、黃委員那因為這個大概都是預算的事情其實大家都可以好好來談一下怎麼樣是恰當的那我這邊是充分的尊重各位委員的意見請大家不要客氣盡量的多多溝通接著請賴世保、賴委員謝謝主席、葛新進這個我們看到版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2581.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2592.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
國民黨團的版本有民眾黨團有國民黨的委員也有提案民進黨也有不少委員有提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2593.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2615.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以基本上來講其實我們立法院這個題目老實講這個題目不是很政治的這個題目應該就是這個各縣市之間水平分別各縣市之間會大家彼此有較勁彼此有這個在希望說多要一點少要一點等等的可是幾個問題第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2617.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2642.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我就不了解我們都可以提版本了為什麼財政部沒有版本呢?所以行政院要求你不提版本嗎?又要把這個題目又先就政治化了嗎?我覺得這個題目最不該政治化了這個都是像錢的問題請問你財政部難道你現在沒有公事嗎?你心裡有一個詞在那裡我就希望把你的詞把它條文化啊你也不敢是怎樣啦? |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2645.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2665.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
不要各部位的把自己做小,你是財政部欸這麼大的一個財政部財劃法這麼重要的一個法已經醞釀這麼久,大半年了結果到現在為止你一個版本都沒有你等一下回答一下到底第一個,你是不要有版本嗎?啊不要版本什麼意思?你在亂咧?把自己降格了變成一個奴才部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2671.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2690.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
說行政院怎麼講我怎麼做、立委怎麼講我怎麼做財政部要有版本啦你心裡就有公式啊請問你現在怎麼分配你心裡面那個詞你怎麼分配下去呢你現在寡寡而談說有啊個性是增加比較多啊這個也增加、那個也增加、這個也增加、那個也增加可是我要看結果啊這幾年的結果就是72對28 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2694.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2719.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
中央拿72、地方拿28哦啊現在這個側翼就講了說如果這個通給地方的話我們長照沒有錢啊這個沒有錢那個沒有錢牌誰?你們現在長照也都是透過地方政府啊等你早點給晚一點給現在等於目前的狀況就是地方政府都不知道你要給他多少錢只能夠把握著你那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2723.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2744.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
關愛的眼神啊 這個很悲哀啊民主國家發展到現在大家都有民意接觸哦 不是總統而已有哦 縣市首長都有哦陳其邁講話了黃偉智講話了說目前按照國民黨團版本不公平沒關係啊 那你就提你的版本大家都提版本來討論啊有共識最好 沒有共識那就看怎麼處理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2750.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2778.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以我覺得第二點我要強調的就是說不應該用說啊這樣一來的話我中央做什麼事沒有錢做了沒有錢做給地方做啊這是什麼問題呢錢還在那裡錢沒有跑掉啊只是你主導權你不要現在就是就是高高在上讓縣市首長像乞丐跟你要錢爽這個把這個拿掉以後事先就給他嘛你不要事後再給啊這是第二點我要強調的第三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2780.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2785.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
針對現在來講25人沒有修難道不應該修嗎?1999年那時候就是60對40我們的目標就是60對40你是做不到那就來講啊看多少啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2794.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2807.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
是不是65對35也可以啊當然這個不是喊價大家一個一個在算你不能說欸統統不用蓋都這樣這樣就黑箱啊因為你要怎麼給完全看你啊看你要看主席總書這邊怎麼給我們這個就是讓他法治化 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2812.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2816.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
現在窮的縣市雲林縣很窮啊苗栗縣很窮啊雲林縣在罵我繳了稅繳這麼多苗栗縣我繳稅繳這麼多可是我分到很少啊台北市我繳了40%只分到15%啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2827.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2850.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個都是大家都喊不公平的地方陳其邁喊不公平我也尊重他我也覺得他喊有道理黃偉哲喊不公平我也覺得他喊有道理啊版本貼出來啊再這樣一堆版本貼出來現在看的話我是建議了齁我是建議如果這樣又泛泛的討論了就沒有辦法往前走 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2851.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2871.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
如果其他委員會覺得說要再加改空聽會我也沒有意見這個既然要討論這個這麼重要的事情但是我是具體建議今天好不容易大家開始了財政部沒有版本就沒有版本吧我們憲法裡面規定說一定要用你版本才能審我覺得可以逐條開始一條一條往下走 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2872.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2900.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
有一件就放著或者一條你把它討論一天也可以讓大家盡情的話會盡情的討論但是我再強調一遍財政部部題版本是很丟臉可恥的事情把字變成奴才部因為行政院不要叫你那個行政院整個抓在手上行政院現在現在擁有執政了權力Slogan很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2901.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2909.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
很大家覺得說國會他沒辦法掌控的所以一定要抓住都不能放每一個委員這裡面三黨的委員都有提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2911.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2935.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
黨團只有民眾黨團不提就是因為民眾黨團不提所以你們就不敢提就變這個樣子財政部財政部長怎麼會沉寂而死把自己做這麼小這樣像小媳婦一樣早就可以提出你的版本了對不對你可以大膽提我們現在要恢復變60、40你可以講70、30也可以提啊就你的版本了提來大家討論為什麼不可以呢為什麼這樣子為什麼70、30 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2939.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2966.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
或是降一點68對32都可以提一個這樣的東西垂直分配非常重要阿你不要扯水平水平永遠擺不平那個最後再來討論先把垂直搞定這個要有信號而且那你說到底垂直線那是水平線那簡單來講那個逐條一起一條一條走過來有一件就保留或是一條要討論一天也都可以我覺得大家今天盡量討論嘛但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2968.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2978.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
不能財政部不能沒有版本的這個東西這個是準備怎麼樣以後過了以後你又要來釋憲是不是還你呢又來釋憲還你呢我們都這樣子還要釋憲就釋憲吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2982.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2998.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
好,謝謝賴司法賴委員。接著請郭國文、郭昭偉,慢慢講沒關係啦。好,謝謝羅昭偉。我想我基本的態度是說確實財法法是需要修,但是問題還是在怎麼修的問題啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2999.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3024.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
其實我們討論也是有討論的意義因為討論基本上要修之前都要討論就如同公聽會的時候我們都會有所討論我是蠻認同今天羅兆偉所採釋的部分今天以討論為主改天進行了條文的一條一條的一個審查因為畢竟民眾黨的新的版本還沒進來他還要再研修他還沒有進來他還要再研修他認為他原來條文還需要再修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3025.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3046.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我是覺得剛剛那個賴石堡委員剛剛所講的一段話其實大家其實他提到說我們是不是需要再開公聽會老實說如果需要開公聽會我個人也不會反對啦因為基本上他剛剛提到一個很重要的問題就是說以長照為例的話地方做還是中央做做比較多那就是說我們這不是單純的只有財權的劃分還有事權的劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3048.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3071.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那財權的劃分當然你從財政收支劃分法你來看OK啊可是事權的劃分你必須碰到真的是地方制度法的問題啊這真的是有這樣子即便是討論只有中央垂直分配的部分就有財權跟事權的劃分喔你還不是橫向的喔也就是說我們在討論財法法不是一部財法法就是只有中央的問題處理而已還有包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3072.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3088.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這一個地方制度法甚至我剛剛我之前也一直在提到的地方稅法通則是不是我們要一併來做一個思考的原因這樣子這個不是只有我個人的想法主張這樣子那一天的公聽會劉昭偉所舉辦的公聽會有好幾位學者都這樣講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3089.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3107.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
有好幾位學者都這樣講啊認為他的制度面地方財政的問題不是一個單一一個財政收支劃分法可以解決更何況也不是單一財政劃分法垂直劃分的處理就可以解決的不是除了橫向、垂直、市權、財權還有其他不同的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3108.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3134.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這大工程啊 這大工程所以我是認為是說需要大家在版本上大家版本上大家互相想一下是不是還有不足或是太過over的地方來思考看看即便呢民黨當中有一些委員提案其實有些委員提案的這個條文內容也是相當有侷限性嘛也相當有侷限性他只是表態說這個財務好像有些該修的地方大家來做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3136.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3146.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
事實上有沒有爭議?其實這幾天各家的版本出來、媒體的報導出來每一個黨團甚至每一個委員自己心知肚明。如果這樣心知肚明,你還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3150.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3177.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
強度關山那只是引發更多的爭議而已啊那何苦來哉呢在大家又花了這麼多時間在那邊做耗費這種無意義的這種生命在這裡這個討論的過程當中那我一說再拉回來講說這個財法法的部分齁其實還有許多的委員沒有進來是不是要今天注入紙條我還是尊重那個抓委的一個看法那我也同時如果是那個財政部還有主計要 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3178.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3181.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
謝謝郭國文、郭昭偉的確部長也講過中央跟地方就是夥伴的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3200.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3221.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
其實也謝謝各位委員都大力為地方來爭取最好就是比以前還多啦這個是大家一定要比以前多啊現在物價上漲地方真的是嗷嗷待哺所以我們就是大家多多為民來爭取那我介紹一下我們黃宏威王委員許宇甄許委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3227.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3250.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好的 那接下來還沒有委員要發言請李坤澄委員 接著是吳立華委員謝謝趙偉那其實 因為我是第一屆新進那我相信說 在過去的25年當中有很多資深的立委都在這邊那25年來 財化法為止為什麼都沒辦法好好的修那表示就是說爭議性蠻大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3251.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3269.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
聽我講完嗎?不然國民黨執政的時候也可以修啊。沒關係等一下你可以講。沒關係等一下林德福委員可以講。所以我講的時候你先聽我講。就是爭議性很大啊。可不可以讓我講完? |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3274.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3288.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
責任性就是很大大家就是沒有共識那所以馬英九執政的時候為什麼不修馬英九執政的時候你們也是在國會也是多數為什麼不修那表示就是說各個縣市跟中央就是沒有共識嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3291.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3317.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
尊重一下好不好對啊你雖然是資深但是也尊重一下尊重一下我們的意見嘛對不對大家都一樣大嘛好不好在這個在這個立法院裡面大家都一樣大好不好這是不要倚老賣老啦所以說今天我們來討論這個東西昨天新北市議會也有問侯友宇市長啊就是說問他財政法看法是什麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3318.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3344.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
他就說什麼有合理劃分就好那具體問他說什麼合理劃分他也答不出來他就說有合理劃分就好那再問他就是說那如果多拿這些錢要做什麼事情他也說有合理劃分就好就是一個新北市的市長至少他也要講出來就是說那如果財劃法新北市的標準是什麼樣原則是什麼樣那我相信新北市的標準跟原則跟台北市可能也不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3345.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3369.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
六都跟非六都也一定會有不一樣跟農業縣也一定會有不一樣那所以今天大家討論的例行說比如說我是新北市的立委我當然希望新北市的財源能夠增加那我就對於說國民黨的版本裡面3%要保留給台北市我就覺得說那為什麼為什麼台北市是首都就要3%就要留給台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3369.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3397.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我新北市如果這個按人口按土地面積的話那5%給我新北市好了我也可以這樣喊價嘛但是不是這樣子喊價嘛那所以說這個錢是跟權是分不開的啦你要有這個錢那你接下來你要分擔多少的義務你有多少的責任我覺得這個是要一起來談的所以我們今天是談財化法但是財化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3398.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3410.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
是在講說錢你要怎麼分不管你是垂直分配還是水平的分配但是更重要的是說接下來各個縣市政府他接下來的責任是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3411.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3438.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我覺得這個都要一併談那如果說你只談錢那談錢就是變成說大家在這個餅你要畫多大那六度要怎麼分然後非六度要怎麼分那我覺得這樣談就變成是就變成是說你再這樣談下去也不會有一個共識出來但我是認為要修但是要怎麼修這個不要是說什麼財政部沒有版本財政部版本就是本來的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3438.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3445.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那版本就是本來的版本,只是說本來的版本怎麼讓它更好那大家一起來討論啦好,謝謝李昆城、李委員接著吳立華吳立華委員完了以後是林德福林委員、王偉文請吳立華、吳委員好,謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3464.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3478.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我這邊是想要幫原住民的部分提一下而且這個沒有爭議並且是過去修法的漏失我是覺得說我這一條可以來處理啦是哪一條呢?就是第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3480.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3506.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
為什麼?因為這個部分會跟地制法連動所以地制法那邊我其實也有修正版本那邊也在處理那我說明一下就是曾經在兩都變六都的時候那有很多的六都裡面的園鄉就變成園區但是呢一度就是失去公法人的地位因為大家沒有注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3507.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3529.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
在大家的一個討論之下所以在2014年那一次的地治法修法就有把原住民區的部分再把它還以公法人的地位所以那時候的修法其實是寫得很明確就是說山地原住民區的自治事項要準用 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3530.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3546.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
原住民鄉鎮市的規定這是很清楚的只不過當時漏失掉的就是地治法的財政自治事項他的稅跟公共債的部分沒有寫進去所以地治法那個地方我有把它修回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3547.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3563.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以要同時在財劃法這邊的第三條全國財政收支系統劃分要在第四款的部分它漏掉了直轄市山地園入民區所以只是把它補回去所以我想我這個部分應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3565.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3589.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
比較沒有正義而且是必須要修那如果我們不修的話大家就會繼續抱怨因為他們這樣子就導致他們的稅客收入跟一般公法人的鄉鎮市是不一樣的他們是領就變成要完全仰賴市政府所以我希望這個部分就請主席幫我注意一下第三條應該沒有正義啦而且是必須要修的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3590.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3614.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
關於地方中央的部分我個人意見當然也是覺得要修啦特別是我們看到這幾十年地方政府的總收入其實他的成長率是遠遠的低於我們中央的成長率大概26%比100%吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3621.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3640.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
地方是26%,那中央是淨額成長率是121%如果說從那個收支的這個是稅入的部分那如果是說從支出方面的話又遠遠的低於中央的淨額成長率 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3642.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3654.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以我覺得這個部分我覺得是出在一個分配公式分配的問題所以也希望大家在這個部分我是站在地方的立場因為我們原鄉常常也吃這個虧 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3658.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3658.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3675.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3688.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
地狹人酬到底他所需要的建設經費到底真的有沒有比地方需要我想這個部分是我們這幾年在地方上聽到的聲音以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3690.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3718.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
謝謝吳立華、吳委員那其實就是部長像他這個蔣元香原住民的應該大家都沒有意見吧所以我們就確定像你講的我們就放在心上在主條的時候我們就是已經溝通過盡量照顧原住民的地區嘛這個是就有一些東西可以的我們就往前進部長就也聽進去了嘛那介紹邱正軍、邱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3720.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3732.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
林思銘、林委員接著請林德福、林委員謝謝主席我想財劃法在88年1月 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3735.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3755.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
25日,這個25年前修訂到現在已經經過25年那其實這25年來很多地方的改制啦中央的地方這個整個財政結構的改變啦那地方當然面臨很多地方的自主財源啦非常的低 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3757.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3784.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
財政負擔沉重等問題也影響整個地方自治可以說地方的建設發展真的很大的衝擊我一直認為說站在中央的立場因為這些年來每年幾乎都有超增我認為說這個本來就應該要重新來分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3787.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3807.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這25年來當然經過藍經過綠的執政那為什麼過去啊這個沒有辦法去修訂主要就是因為當初因為我在財委會算是執政跟我們的召委啊羅明才、羅召委我們兩個算是跟那個誰跟那個賴世寶算是非常資深的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3808.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3835.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
經過很多次的協商那為什麼沒有成功主要就是各縣市的財政局局長來他們沒有辦法取得一致性的等於是大家有共識但是這一次是不一樣喔多數的財政局局長甚至於跟這些縣市首長他們認為說本來就應該要重新劃分從這個整個收支的劃分如何去分配比較公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3835.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3845.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那大家只要多數取得一個共識財政部就要崇善如流你為了地方的進步發展不是中央啊掌權又掌錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3847.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3875.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
對不對那現在地方都要看中央的臉色而且你看這幾年的超徵一兆多捏這一兆多你就拿去給補台電拿去補給誰結果很多政策他根本就是一開始就有規劃設計那些政策怎麼樣就有偏差你看你核電不用然後你電會一直台電已經補他五千多億了捏這五千多億有沒有是一個坑洞啦一個大坑啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3876.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3904.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
未來還是要繼續補啦你政策沒有改變永遠要補啦那為什麼無底洞啊那你就政策的錯誤比貪污一百倍可怕所以說我們這一次為什麼會裁劃法我認為說應該要修訂多數縣市只要他們取得共識本來就應該要修訂不能再讓中央集權又集錢那這個沒有男女之分因為你修訂以後分配下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3905.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3929.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
讓地方自治能夠透過這些財源來建設更多我認為說只要多數有認同那就本來就應該要修訂那財政部的立場當然沒有擔當嘛不是只有仰仗這個行政院啊仰仗這個總統的看法看要不要修該修則修啦要面對啦以上謝謝好 謝謝林德福、林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3933.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3953.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
所以因為太久沒修了25年了齁贊成要修的請舉手對啊你看好謝謝沒有阿這個是大家參考沒有列入紀錄的齁就是 趙偉阿你問這個就問說大家要不要減肥一樣阿大家都要減肥阿大家都要修阿大家都要改革阿但是但是要怎麼修是問題阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3955.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3956.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
王宏威、王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3985.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4009.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
謝謝主席還有我們各位委員我想今天我們有很多非本委委員也到現場來做關心就如同剛才我們那個召委所說的就是我想我們在立法院裡面應該不分黨派的立法委員都認為這部財劃法已經到了要有修正的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4010.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4027.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
事實上我們之前召開的公聽會22個縣市的所有的財政局有的還是副市長、副縣長來親自出席當天我是全程把它聽完大家口徑其實非常非常的一致都是認為財法法 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4029.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4055.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
財化法應該要做修正所以我想到現在為止我們有一個完全沒有意義的一個共識就是要做修正那我們現在呢在我們這個財委會也是有跨黨派的委員提出不同的財化法不同的修正版本我想這些版本沒有說誰比誰一定更好但是我們是要怎麼樣去衡量到 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4058.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4062.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
中央跟地方之間當然我們要修當然就是要從中央多分一些錢因為我覺得地方縣市我舉一個例比如說我們最近我看到一些梗圖就開始來攻擊說這個藍白要修這個財劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4077.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4099.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
事實上是要剝奪長照的權利、營養午餐的權利、這個權利那個權利我覺得這樣的做法若是來自於執政黨這個是非常不道德的事情我舉一個例子比如說最近有一個議題也很熱就是有關於老人健保費要不要補助的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4100.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4105.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我們線下來看的話其實我們在六都因為財政的狀況比較好所以呢我們都給我們的老人65歲以上老人的這個健保有給予補助但是當然有的是有這個他有一些比如說的稅的一個標準排付條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4120.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4134.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
好,六都都做可是你走出六都之後呢你以為人家其他縣市長不想做嗎他也想照顧他縣市內的老人啊對不對他也不想讓自己的縣市內的老人淪為刺耿公民啊但這是不是照顧長者 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4135.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4158.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
當然是照顧長者我覺得不能一個台灣兩個世界65歲的老人光是健保就不一樣為什麼呢?就是因為他們的財政狀況非常非常差我上次也提過到2020年的時候我們竟然有14個縣市自籌財源的比例低於三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4159.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4173.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
所以這個比例實在是太低了所以呢我們一定要做修正我們既然要做修正當然我剛剛也聽到郭國文委員或者李昆城委員說我們都沒有說反對要修啊很好啊真的非常感謝但是呢這怎麼修 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4176.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4194.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我們現在就在做怎麼修的工程所以我在這邊要具體的一個建議我剛才也跟我們寶哥也做一個商量跟昭偉做一個報告我們到目前為止有這麼多的版本但是竟然都沒有行政院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4195.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4218.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
因為部長好幾次回答我們都說我們要聽取縣市的意見等等之類那些縣市意見太清楚了就是要修當然每一個縣市可能它基於它自己的政策或者它未來的目標不一樣或者甚至它人口的關係、面積的關係、農地的關係大家都希望這個人同此行大家都希望自己能多爭取一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4220.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4241.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以現在的財劃法已經到了非修不可而且不要再阻擋因為你再阻擋就是跟百分之百的民意在對抗啦我直接講啦我想郭國文委員在這邊也講說他們沒有說說不修啊要修啊所以怎麼修?行政院一定要提版本出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4242.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4264.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那我們現在到目前為止因為沒有行政院版本我們今天也搭充分的討論那我直接說我們現在呢就算我們今天把它送出我們的委員會那這個會期也來不及那個來處理了嘛那所以我們也非常有佛心我們也非常有耐心我們應該具體的要求行政院要提出版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4265.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4285.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那麼我也不會說我們7月16號結束之前你們把版本提出來給我們看一看但是在下一個會期開議之前你們送出版本不會很困難吧 對不對所以如果你都不送來你們繼續坐在這邊要修啊但是怎麼修好但是這個我就要講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4286.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4312.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那我所有在發言的人我就直接說你故意拖延你就故意拖延你回去跟你的選區的選民說我故意講說我要修但是我們怎麼修我不知道怎麼修其實你不拿版本我也無所謂我就覺得你是故意拖延我就直接說了但是我們現在才剛剛開始我覺得我都是用很正面很善意的看待每一位所以在這邊我覺得最重要的是財政部這邊行政院這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4314.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4322.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以不要再迴避也不要再逃避那把你們的版本拿出來我們才能夠具體去討論怎麼修好不好以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4337.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4345.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
財政收支劃分法已經到達一個可以說完全失衡的分配機制所以我們必須要大幅的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4347.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4374.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
並檢討現行分配的公式內容。以前莊部長曾說過,財政部初步擬定提升財政自主劃一分配基礎,調記財政盈虛,保障既有財源和精進分配機制等五大方向。其中最大的變革就是未來直轄市和其他縣市要採取同樣的公式來計算。 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4376.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4397.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
也就是說要說財政部沒有想法或者說財政部不想修法其實都不是事實部長早就已經說過了所以只是有沒有擔當跟勇氣而已所以目前我們聽到或者看到的是院版的財化法的修正沒有提出時間表 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4399.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4416.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
沒有時間表,這個我想王委員也講得非常清楚,請財政部不要再萎縮了,趕快提出我們的研版的財化法。所以我想財政部我們現在看到就是說,針對我們各個委員的修法版本, |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4417.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4440.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
就是整理出一張表格來說明各個版本我們中央大概要釋出多少的財源的數字然後告訴大家不可以修法然後我們看到更好笑的就是說執政黨還製作圖表都在說要是修了法政府目前執行的租金補貼、育兒津貼、長照補貼、學費補助通通都會不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4445.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4472.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我想這些都是委員聳聽的謊言我想執政黨的委員今天也在這裡我請大家不要忘了我們在6月3號財委會首次安排的審查財化法修正的時候總共有17個縣市表示有缺錢這其中還包含賴總統的故鄉台南市還有郭國文委員的故鄉所以我想今天既然大家都覺得財化法的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4473.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4500.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
是已經迫不及待時間點已經到了所以請財政部趕快提出部的版本財政部其實也有想法的所以你與其在那邊批評何不務實一點提出財政部認為可行的修法內容為何要如何調整公式或是分配比例都可以提出來談大家來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4503.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4517.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
或是把以前林全院長的版本重新拿出來這也可以啊所以我想其實大家都知道現行財劃法的狀況有哪些也確實已經造成我們地方財運的不足或者地方建設發展的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4518.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4540.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以財政部覺得無法如大家的版本一步到位那請財政部就拿出你們的想法要怎樣中央與地方、地方與地方之間盡量取得一個大家可以接受的修改點我想各個地方政府也知道中央施政需要足夠的財源但中央也必須認同我們地方確實還有財 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4543.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4544.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4570.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4592.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
謝謝林思銘、林委員接著請邱政軍、邱仁、然後許宇甄委員請準備好主席還有部長還有各位委員大家早安大家好那我想剛剛聽了很多位委員提到的都同樣一個問題啦就希望我們政院版的版本趕快出來那我當然我不知道我們今天部長到底能不能決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4593.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4614.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我想如果不能決定請回去的時候要趕快來反映我想這個才是比較正面的啦我們大家都看到25年來我們民眾黨自己本身也提了26個委員的版本還有兩個黨團的版本其中也包括賴清德總統還有我們蕭美琴副總統的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4615.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4638.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
多次強調地方自主財源偏低財政嚴重失衡影響地方施政並指他們也指出就是六都升格之後中央的業務減少地方業務增加直轄市縣市的差異越來越大身為為了兼顧區域的平衡發展落實地方財政的自主所以他們必須也提到說必須要修正這個財政劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4641.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4669.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那現在我看到的是就是說我那天也跟院長講也請教過院長那目前的財劃法可以對地方有很大的幫助跟補助就拿苗栗縣來講長期的財政這個被管控那麼我們苗栗縣雖然是五級縣市當然中央也不是說沒有照顧可是呢就是我們的自籌款都會比較低沒有錯但是呢如果我們自己有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4670.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4691.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
苗栗縣自己有錢第一財政不用被控管了第二也不需要你中央特別的待遇我想既然方向是這樣子我們希望這個政院版本趕快提出來不要說我們現在執政了就把之前講過的話通通忘掉尤其我們看到113年的統籌分配款 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4692.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4698.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
6都總共佔了65%,2477億元。其餘的16縣市及鄉鎮市只分到35%,大概1333億。以人口的平均分配統籌款,最高的達到46000元,最低的只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4715.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4731.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
只有9400元分別的落差這麼大我想部長應該要慎重的來考慮啦因為這個公平性確實不對大家都有繳稅不應該他因為他住的地方而享受的待遇會有不同那有19個縣市呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4733.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4757.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
在111年,自籌款低於五成,七個縣市低於兩成顯示地方的財政自主能力逐漸的降低這絕對不是正常的現象我想我們還是誠懇的希望我們這個政院版的趕快出來你出來我們大家還可以協調我不敢講說我們每一個委員提的這個提案都是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4758.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4783.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
但是我也相信每一個委員他都願意坐下來談現在就看我們執政當局願不願意坐下來談願不願意提出版本我想不要搞到後面我們大家出了委員會到時候刪讀是不是又要提復議是不是又要再提釋憲我想這都不是我們樂於見到的我希望在這個還沒出去之前大家趕快提出版本趕快來做一個正確的一條路一個選擇以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4786.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4804.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
謝謝邱政軍、邱委員為苗栗大力的爭取接著請許宇甄、許委員謝謝主席還有各位委員我想剛剛聽了各位委員的發言我想大家其實一致的意見都是認為財化法應該要修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4804.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4827.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
因為其實已經超過25年沒有修正的這個法令其實一定是不合時宜那當然因為考量到地方財政面臨自由財源偏低支柱結構僵化跟財務負擔相對沉重的問題影響地方的這個施政的推動所以各地方的政府也紛紛的要求中央要充裕他的自治財源以解決地方財政結構的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4829.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4845.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我提出來的版本是針對農業縣因為現在針對國土計劃法施行後受限制的農業縣市能夠修法提高他的財政自主程度以因應地方改制跟國土規劃的需求所以我主張要擴大分配款的這個規模然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4849.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4874.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
將所得稅的分配數能夠增加然後分給因爲國土政法而受損的這些農業的縣市但是我想國民黨團也有提出版本就統籌分配稅款的增加比例來說縣市增加的最多的是宜蘭、新竹、基隆市、彰化縣、金馬跟嘉義縣市還有屏東縣都增加三倍以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4874.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4900.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
苗栗縣、澎湖縣跟南投縣都增加2.5倍以上雲林、花東也都增加2倍以上另外六都中新北市增加1.3倍最多台北市增加0.6倍台南跟高雄在六都的政府也都位於中間而且這個版本是對於藍綠其實都一樣並沒有分藍綠之別而是以地方之福而且六都的占比也從61.76降到49% |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4903.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4917.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以可以說是最能平衡城鄉差距那這個版本也是邀集了16個縣市的縣市長還有財長所提出來的一個相對的版本所以如果能夠通過這個修正版本的話本席也願意支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4917.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4943.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那我想剛剛大家共同的意見就是說如果行政院認為這個財化法的這個目前各個委員提出的版本這個行政院是不是能夠提出相對應的版本來說明行政院的立場財政部的立場讓我們大家能夠在這個財化法的部分在委員的共識之下認為該修但要怎麼修如果財政部不能這個看到目前大家各個委員還有這個黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4945.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4959.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
提出的版本如果認為還不能達到財政部的要求那是不是財政部能夠盡快的提出相對應的版本否則的話我覺得以國民黨團目前能提出的版本我是覺得最能夠照顧也能夠最能平衡城鄉的差距謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4962.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4976.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
謝謝許宇甄、許委員對所有鄉鎮市有一些需要支援的鄉鎮市的這個大力爭取那接著請賴會員、賴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4984.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5005.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
謝謝主席。那針對的本席針對的今天的財劃法那有幾個想法啦因為先前的這個審查跟公聽會上面其實財政部所提出來的數據來看的話那如果依照現在國民黨籍還是民眾黨提出了幾個財劃法的草案施行的一個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5006.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5025.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
中央每年只要釋放出5000多億來給地方政府可是這樣的一個做法不只會壓縮到中央的全國性的一個基礎建設還有國防建設這些政策上的一個支出在一些跨縣市的一個建設上他很難做出一個統一的規劃跟財源的一個籌措 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5028.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5043.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
本席認為以台南市分配的狀況來看以現行的分配辦法裡頭當然統籌分配款的一個款項分配的一個前奏裡頭我們都很清楚營利事業佔50%人口數是20%土地面積是20%財政只佔了10% |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5051.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5067.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
當營利事業人口聚集在部分的縣市,像我們台南這樣的一個財政依賴度高的一個縣市,更容易因為發展遲緩,人口的一個外流,還有營利事業的營業額的下降,導致這樣的一個分 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5068.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5092.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
分配的比例其實是會越來越惡性的循環所以本席也主張就是說貧窮的縣市在這樣的惡性循環之下其實他難有歡聲的機會只會造成互有的區域更互有貧窮的區域更貧窮的現況那區域發展不均也會更加的嚴重所以我 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5092.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5118.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
主張就是說近年統籌分配款項跟相關的一個補助稍有不足於補貼地方的需求的時候那修法要中央每年大撒幣但這個並沒有辦法解決就是縣市之間的分配不均的辦法所以我主張是應該經過行政院修正的中央統籌分配稅款的分配辦法的分配比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5119.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5142.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
來加重弱勢區域的分配比例上的一個前則來達到真正的區域的一個平衡這是我的一個建議 謝謝好 謝謝賴會員、賴委員為地方的大力爭取接著請鄭正前政委員然後黃委員、黃秋芳再來是郭昭瑋 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5147.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5170.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
謝謝主席我想說今天我們在針對財劃法的部分那確實財劃法這邊有一個垂直的部分跟水平分配的部分那本院在這邊有特別要幫新竹市這邊提出一個說明因為我們看全台22個地方政府就是112年的創稅、統籌分配稅款、一般性補助之後可以發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5171.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5195.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
全台創稅新竹市僅次於臺北市跟新北市是第三高的一個地方政府那甚至於比高雄市還要高了5億那算上人口之後新竹市的人均創稅全台最高可是得到的統籌分配稅款和一般性的補助款就遠低於其他的縣市只拿到高雄市的六分之一台南市的四分之一不到那配回率其實是全台最低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5196.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5217.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那這樣的部分的時候呢我們就提出了一個其實我有提一個修正動業的版本可是就是說到時候因為今天不一定會進竹條嘛所以我在這邊也就特別再說明一下那所得稅在新竹市那徵收的時候那從業人員在新竹市生活其實非常的多那新竹市卻沒有一個很像樣的一個大眾交通工具所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5217.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5238.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這表示說我們地方政府在整個地方的一個財政的支應當中的時候其實是有一些不足的地方那我這邊簡單講一個部分比方說在我們整個的目前在做的大新竹輕軌計畫當中的時候光新竹是一條紅線的部分就要支應將近50%的經費220億其實是負擔不起的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5242.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5263.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
議員議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5264.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5276.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
就是修正動業的部分我們之後也許能夠再做進一步的一個討論所以這邊就先針對這個統籌分配稅款的大體的部分先做一個簡單的一個補充以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5282.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5293.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
謝謝珍正前政委員也是為新竹大力的爭取接著請黃修芳、黃委員發言謝謝主席那我今天要特地為我們彰化縣來發聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5296.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5312.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
章化縣是全國六都以外人口最多的縣市,有123萬人,可是我們每一年在統籌分配稅款是分配每一年都是倒數,不是倒數第一就是倒數第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5314.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5330.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
張化縣是這個中小企業非常多的一個地方所以有很多的工廠是設立在張化那公司可能就設立在其他的縣市甚至就是台北市或新北市那這個是這個長期的一個問題然後那我想希望就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5331.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5331.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5347.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5376.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
的數據就是今年的稅收分配讓六都佔據了65%以上的比例其他的35%的分配給其他的縣市我覺得這樣也非常的不公平現行的財政收支劃分法已經實施20年的時間有必要重新來審視來做一個調整現在中央跟地方的稅收的分配比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5377.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5377.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5404.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5430.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個收支劃分法的時候應該要同時保障一般性的補助款不能減少以實現地方財政的健全還有自治能力的這個提升那我要強調的就是說要更公平的這個稅款分配更公平的稅款分配那強調人口多的彰化縣在這個財政收支這個當中應該要受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5431.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5433.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5459.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5475.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
用更公平、更公正的方式能夠分配到其他的縣市而不是說全部的稅收分配6都就佔了6乘5那其他的縣市只有佔3乘5我覺得這樣真的是非常的不公平謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5476.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5505.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 謝謝黃秀芳、黃委員大力為彰化的爭取我也覺得很有道理部長彰化是最窮的苦哈哈 多幫忙一下因為我也彰化人我彰化參委所以當然 你也彰化主席也是彰化的大家這是將心比心真的彰化很多地方需要經費沒有做我們一起支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5506.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5521.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那是不是這裡有一個臨時提案我們大家先聽一下來請宣讀宣讀臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5525.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5550.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
有鑒於財政收支劃分法繼今已於25年會修正其間歷經五都改制直轄市財源分配機制卻未同時配到調整地方政府應統籌分配款分配不足無法補足地方政府財政缺口及各縣市城鄉差距然中央政府聯名稅收超徵財政部不應再漠視地方政府的需求。原此請財政部以下問及 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5551.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5562.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
第2會期開議前提出財政收支劃分法修正草案與立法院審議。提案人賴世寶、羅明才、王鴻輝、徐以貞、邱振軍、黃珊珊、林思銘、鄭振銓、薛南部我們這個是盡情案,盡情案這個很耐的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5575.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5589.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好 謝謝召委我想剛剛聆聽那個好幾位委員來參與本會的討論我覺得真的當立委都很辛苦不只要當立委有時候還要當地方的財政局的局長大家都來爭取預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5591.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5610.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
其實這裡頭從剛剛的討論內容當中就看到很多不同的指標的期待每個縣市都有本位的思考這也就是同樣反映出來過往長期來不論是民進黨執政或國民黨執政連續推出5次的財法法的修法沒有過的一個關鍵的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5611.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5636.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我覺得財法法的本質就是複雜我覺得我們在這邊討論當中不是馬上生出一個財法法就可以解決問題制度本來就是要可長可久既然這個複雜的制度更需要時間成本更需要耐心溝通所以我為什麼贊成賴氏堡委員說再開公聽會的原因是這樣我覺得這部法案老實講該修但急不得 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5639.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5660.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
該修但及不得所以我是說過往為什麼其他的人馬英九笨嗎?陳說平不聰明嗎?對不對?為什麼歷經了16年5次的版本都沒有通過那各位我們在座各位要扮演財政局長的我們的大家變成天眾英明可以馬上毫無意義的就馬上可以通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5661.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5687.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
你不覺得這有所奇怪之處嗎?而來大家一直在強調所謂的比例問題關鍵不是不只比例的問題關鍵是絕對而到底夠不夠用的問題啊你依照目前的這個規範當中我們各家審視一下自己的版本有一些離島縣市超過他原來的公共預算百分之百變兩倍之多不是有錢就好他怎麼執行啊我想請問一下各位啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5687.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5701.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我想請問一下各位啊而且說實在的我也知道國民黨很辛苦國民黨現在縣市首長很多啊它內部要形成版本的時候就意見一大堆了不然怎麼會跑出一個首都條款3%才會安撫到蔣萬安 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5704.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5727.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我抱一下內幕就是這樣子嘛這是不是那麼好巧的嘛你從一個橫向的觀點當中巧好了王委員我不是跟你們吐槽啦我是側面聽到可靠的消息指出啦你們巧好了怎麼巧你拿中央的一大筆比例的錢來巧五千七八七十七億五千七百七十七億讓大家都增加錢大家都馬上拍手叫哪一個縣市會來支分反對有錢當然是好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5732.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5757.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
但是分不夠的當然就有反對也不是沒有聲音啊你沒有看到台南市長出來跳嗎?你沒有看到陳其邁出來說嗎?七次的反對的聲音嗎?這原因就在這邊不是大家說要修但是沒有那麼容易修也不要急著修因為制度你就是要可長可久而且老實說這部法案齁它複雜之處齁它跟真的跟其他的法案有連動之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5758.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5779.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我本席在強調我絕對不是拖延他真的跟其他的法案有聯動之處我們真的要思考其實我們剛剛在討論過的過程當中就有財權跟事權的問題就牽扯到財政劃分跟地方制度的關聯這兩個是息息相關的不要說地方說法通則至少跟地方制度法息息相關甚至我必須講這還不是單純一個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5783.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5811.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
整個預算分配的問題而已他牽扯到體制的問題耶我現在說的在的大家對這個財政收支劃分法部分呢怎麼配置的後面一個思考當中呢恐怕還有牽扯到整個體制的一個問題所以我是覺得真的是要從長計議啦所以我講實在話我剛剛看到賴斯堡委員提案齁我跟賴斯堡委員其實都能夠良性的溝通啦齁但是壓日期齁我個人就非常保留我建議呢是從長計議啦不要急於死啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5813.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5815.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是改修還有修啦 但是不要壓日期啦 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5817.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5842.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那個請黃珊珊委員先請黃珊珊然後賴司法委員李委員請黃珊珊、黃委員好謝謝召喚我想大家都表示過意見那共識應該很清楚了都是希望財政部有版本那當然財政部我們應該是我二月上任之後就請部長然後院長也同意你們去徵詢所以已經徵詢了到現在也已經三個月如果到下個會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5845.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5865.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
開議大概也在兩個月、三個月所以其實有整整半年的時間這個時間財政部的意見應該都收集的差不多而且縣市的立場其實蠻清楚那只是水平分配的指標跟相關增加預算對中央政府的影響這必須總要財政部來說明吧因為現在全部都在外面發梗圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5868.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5887.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
說會刪除租金補貼、會刪除育兒津貼甚至今天還創出來說會影響到什麼TPAS這個不必要的東西我希望執政黨尤其是財政部自己要出來說清楚你們認為會影響的如果財政部我要知道的是你們對於這些的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5888.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5907.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
原來中央政府的態度是只要中央政府的錢少了第一時間就會砍社福預算碼第一時間就會砍居住正義的政策碼第一時間就會砍少子化的政策碼如果是的話也請你財政部說清楚我們希望不要製造這個對立如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5908.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5929.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
中央說我錢不夠我希望你們砍的是速發部的裝潢預算我希望你們砍的是他們要去再找一塊新的地方蓋大樓的預算而不是先刪租金補貼的預算不是先刪育兒津貼的預算更不是刪所謂綠能運輸TPAS的預算我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5930.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5935.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
本委員會的態度一定要很明確這個不是一個簡單的事情製造對立並不會解決問題所以這個部分要請 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5940.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5963.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們的政府、主計處、財政部你們要對外說什麼是你們的priority如果中央政府的priority告訴我們說你們第一時間要刪社福預算也請你站出來堂堂正正的說不要讓這些側衣粉鑽在外面躲在外面幫你說我覺得這件事情是你們必須要跟立法院做個釐清今天這麼多委員坐在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5964.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5989.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我們哪一個人要刪社福預算了?我們哪一個人要去拿掉人民的租金補貼了?所以這些謠言定到此為止我們也希望不要再看到任何政府的官員嘴巴裡面說出來說我們會影響什麼東西如果你會影響你就大聲的說你是誰這是你的意見而不是用散播謠言的方式第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5990.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6009.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
如果你要這樣說就請財政部跟主席處講清楚你中央到底需要多少錢你釋出多少錢才可以不影響你你講出來五百億、一千億、兩千億、三千億、五千億會影響你多少說出來把這些對照表跟影響度講清楚這第一點第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6010.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6036.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
如果我們的各種中央釋出的金額的版本之下你們是不是會優先裁撤社會福利是還是不是還是會檢討目前現行的預算腐爛的項目比如說我們這次大家最討厭的就是買雞蛋可以買成這樣這些不檢討先去恐嚇人民先去說會刪社福福利這是一個很不負責任的態度第三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6038.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6049.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
民眾黨很修財法法。然後我想問一下執政長眼中這是育兒津貼、租金補貼、長照預算是不是你們認為不必要的支出?是,就大聲的說出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6051.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6071.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
第四點,你的地方政府喊的財政缺口是2700億所以我們想問一下主計處你有沒有估算過正確的地方政府的財務缺口?算過沒有?他們喊的對還是不對?我們也希望聽到你們的意見最重要的是最近有很多媒體因為我上個星期請財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6072.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6098.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
用各版本去試算然後財政部很天才他把民眾黨的版本直接增加了錢除以22然後就算出有些縣市還減少這個版本我們跟財政部抗議財政部有修正但是現在有些媒體還有一些側翼粉專拿到了原來用除以22的版本有一些縣市還減少這個版本請問是不是財政部流出去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6099.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6116.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
如果是就說清楚這個是試算第二個台灣民眾黨的版本水平分配都還沒有出來我們水平分配是交給分配委員會去另外去開會討論所以並沒有一個直接除以22的版本所以財政部這部分我希望部長你要解釋清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6116.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6145.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
如果是請問這個版本是不是你們留出去給記者或者是相關的外部我再講一次台灣民眾黨沒有水平分配的公式這是將來交給分配委員會的部分所以如果有任何說台灣民眾黨的版本讓某些縣市會減少這是不可能的因為增加2000多億怎麼可能有縣市會減少我們希望財政部也把你們幫我們試算的那些錯誤的版本留出去也請你把它說清楚以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6147.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6157.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
好 謝謝黃珊珊、黃委員那賴士寶賴委員要不再補充一下齁這個財政部主席總書不提版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6158.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6176.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
某種程度就是配合政治操作這是很不好的財政部主席總書我們一直認為是很專業的單位不參加政治、政黨鬥爭結果你們現在擺爛然後呢在網路上側翼去攻擊說在野黨要搶錢了政府都沒有了這個補貼沒有、那個補貼沒有、印海的補貼沒有、租金的補貼沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6185.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6205.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
啊你們不出來講話所以我們才這個請看我們的提案我們已經有夠卑微了這是建請跟他們的建請一樣我們就建請你們建請你們在差不多3個月的時間下個會期大概開議大概9月22號9月20號、9月22號3個月的時間你們搞不出來嗎那剛才主席主席怎麼在說什麼主席怎麼在說什麼聽不懂這個還要試權那就去改試權啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6215.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6221.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
就去修事權啊!你們行政院團隊去修啊!還不就等了? |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6222.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6251.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
給你三個月時間你搞不出一個版本而建起那最不濟最不濟那你就通通用你原來舊的版本嘛也可以啊就提出來啊就是一個字都不修也可以你拿出來嘛你現在不拿出來那我就高度質疑就是配合執政黨的操作在攻擊在野黨我講清楚喔你們這樣對我們下個會期預算好好看喔我就講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6253.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6269.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
國智輝說他不要政府的補助,組織長還來找我,說要補助台電1000億,沒門我跟你講,1000億,就不給!就不給!國出是你講不要啊!為什麼任人貼人屁股? |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6271.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6295.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們今天這個提案就是給你三個月時間你說啊這個國共委員講的很好聽他講說哎呀我們就要修啦慢慢修什麼事事實上股市你就是不要嘛 對不對你聽我講喔你聽我講喔但是你說要除了財權還要修市權那去修啊市權就去修啊三個月難道沒有辦法提出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6297.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6300.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
各位委員當然就是很難得當上立委大家互相支持一下啦那接著請來自彰化的陳秀寶陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6319.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6342.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
謝謝主席現在針對這個財劃法的修正的部分現在討論的大部分會著重在提升各個稅務的地方分配比例提高來提升整體的統籌分配稅款的額度但在這邊我想要強調的還有一個重點就是各縣市的統籌分配公式的公平性那其實我在擔任彰化縣議員的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6344.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6368.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
曾經跟黨團一起陪著縣長北上來拜會跟爭取哦。彰化縣的統籌分配款的長年就是一直都非常分配到非常的低。這也導致了我們彰化縣的建設量能不足,影響整個彰化縣的這個整體發展。像以今年的統籌分配款為例,彰化縣人的平均呢,呃,平均下來是1593元,是全台倒數第二低的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6369.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6389.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那彰化現在人口數是六都以外最高的縣市喔那盈利單位呢也很多是在工廠設立在彰化的各個工業區但是在中央的統籌分配款的這個分配辦法中呢卻是有以各類的盈利事業營業額平均值來計算統籌分配稅款的分配金額全數也佔了50% |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6391.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6417.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
但是眾所周知的這個盈利事業公司很多大家都是很多大都設在北部那因此也大幅的影響整個彰化縣得到統籌分配款的這個額度工廠設立造成的影響環境負擔、交通優勢等等不方便都是我們彰化人在承受但是在這個統籌分配款上卻是其他縣市設立對我們彰化縣人是非常的不公平如果前面所述 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6418.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6431.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
張華縣的人口是六都以外人口最多的縣市但是統籌分配稅款一直都是淨、賠、沒做一值造成我們張華縣的建設量不足之外就是我們張華縣人口外流現象非常的嚴重我們留不住年輕人年輕人會往台中往北部來發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6434.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6456.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以我們彰化縣的出生率會更低這樣子的惡性循環我們彰化縣就是一直在老化所以希望說透過這次的財政收支劃分法的修正的討論我希望財政部這間要積極的收集各縣市的意見並經過審慎的評估後制定一個比較公平的統籌分配款公式並且修正中央統籌分配稅款分配辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6457.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6480.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
不能獨立讓我們彰化縣的權益受損。我也希望說之後我們各地方政府在整個的統籌分配款如果有增加的情況之下也應該妥善了BMA預算積極的推動地方建設不能只為了一味強仰賴中央的補助必須自行推動地方建設讓青年願意回流扎根地方發展才能夠越來越好 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6481.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6506.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以我再強調一次我希望說經過這次大家對這個整個財劃法的修正討論財政部一定要積極的收集各縣市的意見然後我們來做一個比較公平的統籌分配款公式的修正才能讓大家都是以公平的一個這個起跑點讓我們的所有的國民不是獨厚北高不是獨厚 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6507.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6531.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我們的這個六都我希望說我們彰化縣不要再一直被笑說我們永遠就是倒數第一謝謝好 謝謝陳秀寶、陳委員為彰化大力的爭取部長也覺得好像有道理部長一直在點頭一起多多關心一下接著就是請你要講一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6535.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6544.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
現在還是部長先回應一下啦因為剛剛黃委員大家都講很多沒有回應請莊部長回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6549.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6562.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
謝謝召委還有各位委員那剛剛各位委員的意見我都非常認真聽那也了解到各位對於財化法這樣的一個修正的一個重視然後也認為要修正因為25年沒有修正不過還是跟委員報告這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6566.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6580.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
對於這個財務法的修正這個事情其實財政部已經去請地方政府表達意見那各位知道在那天的公聽會裡面那個地方政府也都有表達他們對他們各有利的一個指標所以我們也都收集來但是所有的指標必須要具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6581.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6595.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
客觀以及具有普遍性那我們在地方政府當然為他們自己的民眾也好為他們自己的小區爭取福利這個我們的理解那所以呢我們就先請各地方政府對你所提出的指標你要做一個明確的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6596.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6611.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以這個時間我們要請他們再提出一個具體的解釋然後這個部分才能來做凝聚如果大家提出的指標是非常的模糊的話其實你的公式怎麼放進去就是一個很大問題所以在這個部分大家花了很多時間為什麼要花那麼多時間各位也許覺得說你為什麼要花那麼久的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6615.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6641.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
可是過往5次的提案為什麼都沒有能夠成功也就是因為它的共識沒有能夠凝聚大家還是有很分歧的意見事實上所以到最後依然沒有能夠完成修法大家也知道財劃法非常重要跟整個國家的財政跟地方的財政以及地方的發展都非常的息息相關這是第一個在水平分配的部分那我們也提到就是說雖然過往25年沒有修正但是透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6642.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6663.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
中央統籌分配稅款還有一般性補助款跟計劃型的補助款在益住地方的財政上事實上是成長的46%跟105年來比成長46%第二個支出的部分部分不屬於中央原來屬於地方要分攤的一些支出也移轉到中央來支出我想這個主席總書非常清楚我們之前跟他們請教過 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6664.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6690.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
例如說勞健保的經費、勞農津貼的經費也都移到中央來支所以這個要整體來看這件事所以我們現在先就地方政府的一個指標分配的部分我們必須要去釐清而且凝聚一個共識否則如果只是為了要快要快但是最後依然沒有能夠達到最後的一個目的的話其實這中間的快還是依然是恍然的我想是為什麼25年沒有修五次也提出修法那 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6691.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6717.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
就是因為沒有共識的情況下他就沒有辦法完成這個修法的一個程序所以我們目前就是要把這些意見都要凝聚大家也許覺得說你們為什麼要這麼久或是藉故推託其實真的沒有我們的同仁真的非常辛苦包含包含去試算各委員黨團提出的版本我們也去試算分配的結果是什麼樣我們都是根據各位所提出來的那剛剛黃委員所提到就是說你的指標因為你們是提的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6719.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6733.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
最有力指標,就是說各縣體有力指標以及透過未來的委員會來審議但是未來的委員會審議目前沒有這樣的情形所以根據黃委員當時在財委會的要求說你財政部你就去試算嘛你就根據各版本去試算水平 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6733.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6755.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
水平分配的情形所以我們是根據委員的要求去做試算那試算的結果我們當然也要給財委會所有的委員都要知道所以並不是財政部故意去試算一個什麼樣的一個不合理的辦法我們是根據各版本提出來的水平分配裡面的東西去計算的沒有針對各版本有不同的一些呃不同的一些成見或怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6756.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6772.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
因為我們為什麼會去22?因為最有利指標各地方政府都會對他的最有利指標提出來。22台北市跟連江縣你跟我除以22你覺得合理嗎?我是只是就這樣試算。這個錯了就是錯了請同仁把它更正就好了不用再硬拗。 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6773.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6798.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我想這個部分我先這樣說明那我想最主要是這樣那另外剛剛也提到就是說隨時分配的部分可能就會跟就會跟事權的劃分會有關係或跟事權劃分比如說我們吳立豪委員所提到的直轄市裡面的原住民區這個為什麼會這樣並不是當時有第一個他是跟直轄當時在地質法修正的時候就是做這樣的安排那他又牽扯到 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6798.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6824.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
直轄式的分配不是只是單一說漏掉它這個所謂的在那個地質法裡面漏掉原住民區有所謂的稅收跟公共財務的這個部分這個都會跟聯動到地質法修正所以我這邊修那邊沒有修是沒有用的所以還有也跟公共債務法也會有關係所以當時是有這樣的一些配置跟設計那這樣的設計跟配置是不是以現在來看是不是合理那必須要 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6825.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6848.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
通盤來做這樣的一個考慮光是這個原住民區這個部分就涉及到另外兩個法另外兩個法那你在垂直分配上同樣的因為現在支出已經相關的移轉掉那你未來要怎麼樣的去做調整這都涉及到事權我想這個就是跟各位委員報告也就是說為什麼需要花時間去再做這樣處理並不是故意的推脫我想這個是讓各位委員了解這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6853.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6880.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那是不是我們是不是建議說也謝謝委員的體諒那是不是就原始就是我們這個提案提案一的部分請財政部 建請財政部緊述、研議財政收支劃分法修正草案就是把那個時間 那個時間那個 佐西他都講了啊 他都講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6882.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6909.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我也是在講這個內容啊對啊我就是建議就是說建請財政部緊述、研議財政收支劃分法修正草案於立法院審議這樣子這樣子的話我給你大家下台階緊述並期望於給你們期望嘛期望在9月22號之前就是夏威夷開議之前提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6917.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6931.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
他那個現在財政部已經表示立場他意思是說呢嚴議禁訴提出財法法那個基本上剛剛跟我們基本立場沒有相左了嘛那你何必只要押一個日期呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6933.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6942.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
不要日期就等於是在拖延啊。不要日期就是拖延啊。我是不相信。我擺明說我就不相信啊。我們也有在論述過程當中提出這套制度的複雜性啊。從過往的經驗跟制度的本身跟其他制度的東西我們都有提出來喔。我不是跟你故意在拖延喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6956.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6965.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我們完全沒有講時間,我們剛剛就講說我們很善意啊,我們也沒有說壓到什麼7月16號,所以我要講,我們可以啊,因為如果說,如果說我們都沒有日期的話,那說實在,那個就是這個技術上拖延 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6974.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7001.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這個大家也都是明眼人不用講這些有的沒的那所以呢這樣我不曉得那個寶哥我們賴委員可不可以接受就是我們建請財政部以下會期開議前為目標提出這樣子已經是這樣已經是非常已經是非常鬆了如果我們我老師說啦如果我們提出說請你禁訴這是什麼屁提案對不對這個提案是怎樣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7002.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7024.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那不是跟大家講每個我要修但是呢什麼時候不知道然後什麼時候修我也不知道那我們我們是在欺騙那個老百姓嗎我不曉得我們各個區域立委回去怎麼去給人家交代所以等一下我先講就是說我們先修正這個這個文字的部分對我們是不是可以把它變成以以下會期開議前為目標對不對因為我們還是要給你一點時間壓力嘛是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7028.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7047.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
連目標你都不要那你請問你要什麼時候?何年何月啊?不要急不要急聽我講一下嘛因為我們今天是可以開到12點晚上可是如果一直講講的話我以為OK可是尊重所有委員就是不然大家就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7048.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7048.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
各位,我們這一屆我們剛剛第一個會期,他如果不提出來你會放他過嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7065.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7092.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們還有三點五年...我們還有七個會期各位七點多個會期你還擔心嗎?你怎麼會擔心呢?你怎麼會擔心什麼完全不對哪有完全不對我跟人講話嘛 對不對就是說我們剛剛這一屆才第一會期而已你要再急什麼呢?所以說我意思說這一部法案的複雜度就歷經了兩任總統不論是馬英九或者是陳水扁這都是歷史事實嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7093.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7113.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
資深的那個代事保委員他很清楚嘛資深的林德福委員他很清楚資深的羅明才委員都很清楚嘛有過嗎?沒有過嘛就是說他的複雜度不是在數字的計算而已還有不同指標區域的平衡還有諸多背後的不一樣的考量在你們在研擬的過程當中老實說研擬的過程當中你叫凱中央之凱 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7116.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7137.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
然後分配給地方所形成的版本這當然是容易啊可是問題不能只有這樣的考量而已啊因此這制度的複雜性需要時間你幹嘛一定要壓一個時間這個期呢你讓它一個時間我們現在才第1會期我不曉得大家在急什麼難道我們立委任期只有一年嗎好我要特別講一下明年會被罷免嗎不會啊我相信不會被罷免我們剛才幾位那個彰化的委員他們都來特別談到他們的財政的需求那其實我剛才講 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7145.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7163.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我們即便是在下個會期,我們即便是最好的狀況啊,我們在下個會期如果有個確定的版本,明年可以編預算嗎?縣市政府還用不到啊,因為他來不及編預算嘛,是不是?所以呢,那我們其實最樂觀的狀況,他也要到後年才能夠編預算。 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7167.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7194.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
所以對於這些縣市政府這個大汗之忘於泥啊我們回去要不要去跟彰化很希望趕快能夠有多一點自有財源的彰化縣各縣市政府說明年你變不到啦也吃不到後年都可能吃不到所以為什麼這個不是我們的我們的任期的問題我們是希望讓希望這個能夠多一些自有財源的他明年都吃不到了你還要讓他等到什麼時候再拖吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7196.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7212.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這就是拖壓,對不對?我們不要拖延所以我們以這個為目標其實是給你們一點壓力而且你說怎麼修?他們行政院提出版本來,我們就你提出什麼版本,我們就來討論啊你現在連行政院都沒有版本,怎麼討論?是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7221.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7223.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
前瞻預算的時候我們是在黑黨我們提了150幾個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7236.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7256.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那你們為了要趕快通過老柯做了一件事情一百五十幾個案子一次表決通通幫你改成建請所以只要看到建請不管內容什麼都通過因為建請就是最文章啦建請就是根本就是建議請你做建請他改成這樣一百五十幾個案子通過你就老柯 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7257.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7280.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
所以你不要那麼的、那麼的嚴謹到說我這一每個字我已經給你過太多的下台階了說以那個為目標建起你那個為目標建起你有夠客氣的客氣沒有要求什麼都沒有建起你得拜託你啊你做不到做不到做不到啊都這樣你查一查錢在你手上就這樣他就寫一個法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7283.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7305.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
從第7案到第7案,一百五十幾個案子,統統改成建起,一次通過,就通過啦!就通過啦!根本因為建起那個約束率很小啦!講坦白話,這個叫大恐怕彈啦!連這個你們都不放!賴委員,賴委員,您是中量級的委員啦齁,我對你有一定的尊重,那基本上在討論的對話過程當中齁,你知道為什麼五次的這個修法沒有過,地方政府還可以運作嗎?財法法啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7306.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7327.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
財政收支劃分法沒有修啊。重點是統籌分配款嘛。重點是一般補助款。重點是計劃補助款嘛。所以讓他們得以運作嘛。條件延續他就一直在講這個原因是在這邊啊。所以為什麼還是可以運作?原因在這邊嘛。所以不要急的原因我說實在的地方政府不是不能運作還是可以運作。對啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7327.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7344.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
問題是還是可以運作啊我說你這樣法的制度設計真的要考慮久長久遠你不要弄到後來後遺症的問題中央集權的部分任何一個執政黨在執政都會面臨這個體制的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7348.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7373.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這是財政的問題啦!沒有拖延啦!沒有拖延!財政部跟主席總統不提出來!慎重!慎重非拖延!不提出來!不提出來就是配合就是配合民進黨在攻擊國民黨!哪有攻擊!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7378.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7379.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
黃衛回來啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7393.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7413.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這個我們才會說的不表決的啦今天已經建請了等於拜託你做一點約束力都沒有居然居然案子這樣子還挑戰解釋我就講了啊所有以後民進黨的提案統統不通過你這裡提案統統不通過挺簡單要這樣搞就這樣子統統反對統統反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7417.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7437.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我不要,沒有,就其他講,期望於下個會期開請啊!建請!建請!進訴啦!進訴等於都沒有了啦!這個案子不過,今天就休會了,今天不要開了啦!不是,部長!你不提出來!你們不提出來! |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7439.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7453.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我就到處接人書你們配合民進黨做攻擊在野黨的動作什麼取消津貼、取消長招就是這樣子以後網路到處都是就是你們配合你們不提案才能夠這樣罵你們提案就不會這樣罵 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7470.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7492.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
夏蕙琦財政部綠手砍啊!這做不到!你個賤情!還來這裡拜託你,還來這裡拜託你!什麼東西啊!賤情而已欸!賤情是一篇藝術的沒有!老看忘了!全部改成賤情157案!一時痛苦!為什麼你把人家亂... |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7497.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7506.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7519.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7522.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
還有靈體啊還有嗎?還有靈體? |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7522.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7522.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
還有靈體? |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7522.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7523.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
還有靈體? |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7523.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7523.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
還有靈體? |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7523.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7523.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
還有靈體? |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7523.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7523.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
還有靈體? |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7562.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7566.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
市長,你怎麼不休息?我們都跑掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7580.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7582.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7601.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7606.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我這個也要進一步我的也要進一步啦加個進一步大家都比照寫我的也要比較寫進一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7635.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7665.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
議員議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7667.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7689.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
他們都會很尊重委員的提案不是啦真的啦,那委員你壓日期他們就會盡可能這樣會逼,你一直逼其實沒有一樣嘛,你壓日期他們就會盡量配合嘛你讓他們做不到了,你何必壓日期呢?我們每個會期都會遇得到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7693.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7703.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
請問你那時候皇帝合一的時候也說很複雜那已經等於是立下去過了啦那已經等於是立下去過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7717.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7727.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
同樣的道理我們來看到那個黃帝和一的時候2.0部長在這裡講100個理由不給過就不給過賴清德為了選舉馬上下令就過了啊很清楚就是上面的一樣的感官隸屬啦這個複雜啊要不要做而已啦不做就很複雜啦那個就地方擺不平嘛你這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7748.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7776.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這個我先講清楚喔你這個案子掛不掛沒關係兩位一樣我就把話講清楚下個會期之前沒有提出來特別委員我砍一半攜帶指路我決定提出來過不過這個時候我就砍你們特別委員用預算這樣假辭啊不要用這樣子的方式啊你要三預算要有道理不是用這種假辭的方式啊三預算不能把它工具化要有道理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7780.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7801.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
對時促人民他以賭職啊改他提出來都不提出來賭職到底要算預算嗎可以這樣賭職這樣推都拉你要去改那個事權就去改事權啊去修車事權啊賭職是編查院在判斷的啦不是我們在判斷我們可以提案嘛我總之可以看預算啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7802.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7827.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我都可以全砍了,客氣砍一半而已啊!對不對?代表賭職啊!兩外方的事情不做!要不然就自甘墮落當奴才!我們立委都可以提出來,為什麼你提不出來呢?立委都可以提出來,為什麼你提不出來?對不對?大家都不要急!這個委員愛錢、這個五立法提這麼多案子都要,案裡面不給過,這些提的都可以白提了啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7828.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7847.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
往事前那位委員提這門沒好嗎?因為他們沒有版本就沒好嗎?那好啊!啊!所以說對阿!對阿!三個月時間有夠長阿!還要多久?三年阿不?阿不三年阿不?三十年阿不?聽話三個月還不夠長喔!小死人! |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7860.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7862.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我講白一點啦,在財政委員會是要對的對的啦,你還怎麼日期幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7895.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7898.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
國稅怎麼可以落掉呢?抱歉告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7914.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7928.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
你修你的版本?再修版本這支鑼碎怎麼可以把它蠟掉?聯絡一下早委啊,所以放我們這邊要幹嘛?誰可以聯絡早委啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7936.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7937.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
不會,禮拜五要表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7959.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7968.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
趕快趕快趕快找一下招委啊要散會也可以散會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7983.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7987.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
財委會也找一下,請財委會幫他去找一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8003.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8006.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
請看一下看他有沒有抽菸這是哪一招?好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8031.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8032.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
沒有啦,怎麼這樣都說好了啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8050.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8062.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
昨天不夠拍,明天投票都要拍?對啦,我怕誰?希望得罪人數一萬,你怕一萬千嗎?一定是韓人答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8072.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8101.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
議員議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8105.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8120.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
19案：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案� |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8127.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8133.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那個動是重點,重點是因為大家在炒那個整個餡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8150.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8153.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
財政收支劃分法議員會第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8177.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8182.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
現在這個部分這是計劃選統論裡面要嗎?但是他們也放在社會裡面嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8198.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8209.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
會在社府?會在社府,但是它是在計劃型裡面,這是2600億裡面的社府計劃裡面嗎?對,我們社府是正式別在長期社府支出,這裡面是計劃型支出,另外一個分類,所以會在社府裡面這衛部會在社府裡面,教育部的話會在教育局 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8229.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8229.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
議員委員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8264.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8265.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
國會加地方有10個。國會4個。1、2、3、4、4個。對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8279.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8306.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
國會幾個? |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8306.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8331.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8334.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8339.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
財政責任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8360.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8387.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
本院總統、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟� |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8388.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8404.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8406.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8406.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8420.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8446.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
議員議員議員議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8452.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8457.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
財政收支劃分法有何分別?財政收支劃分法有何分別? |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8475.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8476.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
會回來嗎?不知道啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8503.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8504.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
全體委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8529.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8537.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我們都很尊重他這個人這麼沒有義氣你知道不是問題就是要允許共和國這個問題很舊也是有用嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8555.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8560.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
全體委員會第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8575.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8589.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我覺得...那統統就是按303就夠了那剛有通...那還有一個會喔那我們是很閒嗎?對啊對啊我問了這個公記也沒去耶那個林國正就這麼負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8600.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8601.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
結果稍微直接去 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8619.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8638.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
不是,因為今天國民黨都走掉了啊!對!是的是的!你要有一些空間!是是是!那我這些別人的空間暫時不必了!一半車啊、一半車都不少啊!我一定要企圖有長時間!是是是!有沒有在講?是是是! |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8641.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8650.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我現在真的編作很困難,第一個我如果要剪這麼久,那我把他剪掉不要擔心,當我拿他剪,看起來今天都剪了,我今天不幹剪透視的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8662.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8664.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這根本逼不出來嘛,沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8692.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8700.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
林德福講完就說他要去供給林德福講完就說他要去供給 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8712.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8717.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
他就看到了他自己當立委的時候,草案法有沒有過?又沒過啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8743.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8766.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
因為原則上一般每個縣市的運輸規模都差不多了,所以這也是差不多,但是你如果說我修的規模,除了我們被羅明才綁架的部分,如果有一些縣市的操作,或者說備署,你覺得說我給他沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8769.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8779.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
因爲爲什麽呢﹖算了算﹖就三倍他﹖他的運動規模就三倍了﹖這樣就不行了﹖我覺得這樣就離譜了﹖因爲其實每一個電視上的運動規模幾乎是一個規模﹖量差不多都定了﹖是 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8792.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8796.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
一大部分就是這樣?有啦有啦有啦有啦有啦有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8808.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8810.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
先去拜訪別人的朋友。 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8824.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8830.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
因為你最終面前就是一個配合,然後財政支援,你應該要怎麼去做,是一個重要的預算對,我也是後來那種,但是還有一個部分我可以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8848.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8853.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
他原來以前他已經他修台灣環環的他從以前是男士人的縣市總理那現在你如果按下去對,那你如果沒有那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8865.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8885.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8886.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8910.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
27、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8910.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8938.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
對、對、對那國民黨還要求說我們2300要維持就是對、對、對、對因為我那個我根本沒辦法沒辦法編這樣因為你看一看就知道了哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8938.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8945.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
反正就是總要修正我們的版本總要修正。請希望你們修正我們的版本。因為我們必須聯動,我們必須看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8961.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8964.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們今天有個新聞我們給歡迎的財政委員會議有多少席啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8989.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8994.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
19案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9016.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9041.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
此外,民眾黨團擬具《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案： |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9057.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9061.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那個部長輕鬆啦 輕鬆的心情來 我們繼續開會來 有幾個案請宣讀宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9071.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9086.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
委員、先讀委員林德輔、賴氏寶、羅明才、陳玉珍、鄭建前等5人提案財政收支劃分法第8條條文修正動議除第一項刪除第9款礦區稅第二項前段修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9087.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9104.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
全項第一款之所得稅總收入25%第四款之營業稅總收入減除1.5%作為積增經費及依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之全部收入及增列第三項第一項第一款之所得稅應以在直轄市縣市增企之收入5%給該直轄市縣市外 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9108.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9128.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
取於均同憲刑法條文宣讀案：﹚﹚那是修正動議 那不一定是第一案我們先把它補宣讀而已 那是修正動議來 資料給他們齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9138.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9162.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
宣讀臨時提案第二案財化法之修正需審慎因應區域均衡問題建請財政部等相關行政部門橫著中央及地方事權分工區域均衡等層面依據地方人民實際之重要民生需求如各族群人口對應自治團體下轄之行政能力需求高齡人口對應長照設施需求幼年人口對應幼保 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9164.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9179.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
用價保、服務需求等建立統籌分配稅款之設算公式而非僅依人口數為主要設算之依據而無法切合各地人口結構不同之實際民生需求提案人吳麗華、賴慧媛、李坤成、郭國文臨時提案第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9181.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9205.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
條款法之修正需審慎因應長期以來地方政府自籌財源不足支出卻持續高度擴張之問題建請財政部與統籌分配稅款分配機制中同時納入地方政府財政努力減債績效等考評指標以利地方政府恪守財政機率避免財政收支及債務持續惡化真正促進台灣地方發展與自治提案人吳立華、大會議員李坤城、郭國文 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9206.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9228.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
民主提案第4案 建議現行中央統籌分配稅款分配辦法中以普通統籌分配稅款分配權重為例營利事業營業額佔50%、人口數佔20%、土地面積佔20%、財政狀況佔10%過度低估財政自籌率對地方政府接受分配之重要性導致財政依賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9230.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9247.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
財政依賴度高的弱勢縣市反而更容易因人口外流、盈利事業營業額下降而形成更依賴中央之應的惡性循環。是以請財政部於一週內針對如何透過統籌、調整統籌分配稅款分配錢種改善弱勢縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9249.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9277.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
經費不足問題提出書面報告並至少於內容中提出兩種具體分配權重以作為修法參考提案人那位王世堅、吳立華、黃秀芳、陳秀寶宣傳畢好謝謝請大家翻到第一案第一案對於第一案臨時提案財政部這邊有沒有回應第一個提案第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9278.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9289.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
第一個對,就是那個剛剛就說建議說研議禁訴啊,現在請財政部委員來,請那個陳玉琛,陳偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9300.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9312.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
財政部進訴大概是多久?你們的大概啦。我們也會給你們一點時間嘛,不是說會給你壓到死。但是,因為你看這麼多人都有提案,第二案、第三案都有提出說這些都很重要嘛。對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9313.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9327.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以才話也是各地方政府不管不分藍綠啦齁不分黨派都希望修正的啦那是不是有沒有什麼一個初步想要競訴你可以壓個時間嗎我們不壓你自己也要有一個期待啊不要說我們來要求你要主動行主動一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9328.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9350.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
對啦,好謝謝委員那我想也謝謝委員這樣的一個體諒但是我想財化法的修正其實是一個大事所以我們認為說壓時間的話我覺得是變成是為了這個時間而去倉促提出並不是一個好事所以我們還是建議說原始請財政部研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9351.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9371.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
緊述提出財政收支劃分法修正草案於立法院審議。我想是這樣,因為只要下了決議,在這邊做了決議,尤其是財政部,不管是財政部或組總或各機關,對於委員會所做的決議,我們一定是非常重視,也都會去努力達成。所以在這裡我想說,是不是我剛剛有一個建議,就請財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9371.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9387.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
研議緊述提出。那壓一個時間確實是我覺得是一個可能不是那麼切實際的。可是像我們在部長我們每次在我們這個委員會質詢的時候通常問的話你們也是說緊述當然通常會說比如說兩個禮拜、三個禮拜、一個月。我們就有目標啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9388.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9409.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
你設一個目標,你們下面也要做事我們做得到,我們一定像委員比如說要一個月或兩個月,我們都在目標裡面做分但是這個跟個委員報告我們也不要說給你太那個,你說大概多久的目標因為我們事實上你不提我們也不是不能審我們的版本嘛只是我們還是尊重你們剛剛好在這個休息之前因為那個等一下換他他第一次發言我簡單講一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9414.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9414.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9436.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9459.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
蓮秀李委員其實這個財化法25年沒修其實每一屆都有提出相關的法規跟法案雖然部長可能其實你擔任部長的時間也一段時間了所以也跨屆當然一段時間所以我不知道這個版本到底什麼時候才有機會調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9461.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9485.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以我覺得既然每一屆的從過去好幾位縣市首長其實每一屆這個財話法的處理其實各縣市首長都有在喊都有在處理但是到目前為止你們到底整個財政部做了什麼今天這麼多民進黨的委員國民黨委員都提出應該要有調整每個人關注的點不一樣但是不壓一個期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9486.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9507.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們都不知道你們接下來還要再拖多久?要再另外一個25年嗎?所以時間你們要到需要多少時間每一個階段需要溝通哪些事情我們也要對地方對民眾有交代畢竟這幾年地方自治的事項負擔的東西也越來越多不曾少過 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9508.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9518.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那我覺得國民黨的版本也好民眾黨的版本也好或者是你們會提出你們的版本所以我是不知道你們要不要提出你們的版本我覺得大家不是不能討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9520.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9542.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
不是不能討論不是說國民黨版本一定硬梆梆沒有調整的機會我覺得這就是大家要坐下來談嘛你們自愛難行的地方我們聽到我們地方自愛難行的地方民眾黨聽到他們覺得有困難的地方這就是一個大家坐下來討論的機會但是如果行政部門都不提出版本的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9542.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9558.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們都會認為這是行政部門的傲慢因為你們的困難點到底在哪裡那你們願意瞭解地方的聲音調整多少那這個就是大家很多這就是一個溝通協調談判的過程那你都不願意提出來的話在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9559.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9583.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
立法院來講我們就覺得說那反正你們就處理你們的吧你們版本過我們後面再來處理復議就好了我覺得這不是政治性爭議的法案而是過去這麼多年來藍綠執政縣市的地方首長都覺得財化法應該要處理你們有困難我們知道地方有困難我想你們也都聽到主席長也從台南來 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9584.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9609.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
所以怎麼樣調整是大家雖然不滿意但是最起碼可以接受的方式這是協調嘛但是現在如果財政部連提都不提你後面是不是就要再來搞一次那沒關係立法院處理你們我們後面再來複議那李委妳要提多久的時間我要提時間我們當然提時間啊兩個月還是幾個月下個會期再來審也沒關係我們希望你們好好討論嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9610.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9627.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
好,那你有沒有具體的?兩個月?三個月?你都可以提啊?下個會期一開始我們就來處理下個?好,那下個會期的話就是兩個月?那個,召委,我覺得需要前情摘要一下,因為這兩位委員是11點才加入討論的齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9628.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9634.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
9點到11點他們不太清楚我來說一下其實說實在話剛剛陳委員提到說以前有押日期如果單純的資料或者是報告其實行政部門押日期都沒有什麼問題同樣是回應那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9646.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9664.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
李燕秀委員的說法這部法案呢基本上呢當然你說他沒有政治老師他還有政治他的專業度、複雜度、爭議性都相對的高否則為什麼之前兩任總統五次提案都沒有過就原因在這邊嘛真的原因真的是在這邊我覺得要慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9666.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9682.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
真的要慎重法案複雜的時候法案複雜的時候其實行政部門會很尊重我們委員會於壓日期壓日期基本上我就會怕出自濫造你說他現在有沒有做事情我就我再一次前行摘要一下他現在在跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9683.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9683.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
財政局長、委員長、委員長、委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9705.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9724.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
財政的期待或自主程度依賴的不同其實真的有它複雜處的所在啦我倒是覺得啦 趙偉我真的是做一個建議剛剛李昆城委員提的那個不錯我真的現實面他真的有財權跟市權的問題我真的是很嚴肅地想這個問題上次您開的那個公聽會很有意義好幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9727.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9746.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
學者專家都提到他有其他法制的聯動性問題其他法制聯動性問題我講白一點就值得再開一次那個公聽會我是真的建議李坤貞委員剛剛的建議其實可以形成一個提案這個可以再開反正我們暑假還很長對不對大家不出國我們就來開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9749.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9773.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
對阿,沒有我一直說我沒有反對建請阿我沒有反對建請阿我就我再一次前行摘要一下就是說我沒有反對建請我只是我們是主張研議競訴再補充一下部分我剛剛的論述跟想法陳春瑋我快講完了我快講完了你不是主席阿我意見很好你可以聽啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9775.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9795.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我意思是說我們現在只有這一屆的第1個會期而已而且國民黨的財政委員會的委員資深的比我們還資深人數也不少於我們羅明才委員就比我資深非常多的多以羅委員的重量級的部分我想財政部長會糊弄他嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9796.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9818.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我簡單講台語一句話啦 稍度會中啦 稍度會中何必在那邊壓日起南 讓人家在那邊緊緊張張你訂一個法案 漏洞百出 後遺症不斷 不是有入我們財政委員會立法院的臉嗎對啊 謝謝我意思是這樣子而已嘛 何必呢好 謝謝郭召偉 那鄭鄭前政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9820.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9845.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
謝謝主席我在想說就是我們做所有的提案我覺得有時間其實是很重要的因為沒有時間就等於是不但要去坐腰無期那剛剛其實就是民眾委員這邊提到說這是財權跟事權要一致其實我也很認同可是這邊就讓我不禁想到2022年的時候那個時候就是民進黨他們提出要修帝制法的時候也是因為新竹的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9846.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9869.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
因為當時的市長林智堅他特別提到一個點就是說新竹市民值得更好的一個對待他提到的理由也是因為財化法分配不公所以他那時候就提出要修帝制法要讓大新竹合併那當時民眾黨來做這個公聽會的時候呢財政部那時候立場是說尊重立法院的一個決議那現在的時候那部長跟他提到說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9870.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9891.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
財化法這邊要修的時候又牽涉到帝制法的問題帝制法當時2020要修的時候講到說最主要是財化法這邊的相關的問題所以你就發現就是內政部跟財政部他們是永遠推來推去都完全沒有共識那所以說我在想說民進黨他們已經執政第九年了我覺得應該也要有一個更大的一個誠意來要試圖解決這個問題所以我覺得說壓時間是必須要一個點這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9896.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9919.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
第二個部分剛剛我聽到陳秀寶委員在幫彰化爭取的時候我發現我們財政部長一直點頭因為當時陳秀寶委員他提到說很多工廠都在彰化可是他們的財政劃分的收支的部分其實相對偏低所以他就覺得說有很多的交通的擁捨問題污染都在地方那這個部分我也 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9920.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9947.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
所以那時候陳佑寶提到說他想要提出那個修改公式的問題那我這邊的時候我也呼應一個狀態新竹市情況更糟糕新竹市的大眾運輸交通依賴率只有6.1%那現在就是賴清德總統他要推一個桃竹苗大細股計畫當中的時候把大新竹輕軌納入可是大新竹輕軌納入光紅線在新竹市這邊的時候新竹市就負擔不起地方自籌款就配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9947.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9970.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
不了,就配不了,所以我們就認為其實要有更具體的一個解決的方法。所以其實我在這邊我提到了一個修正動議的部分,那剛剛部長在回應的部分沒有特別提,那我想說如果今天沒有辦法提到這個部分的時候,我也希望財政部能夠針對本席提的部分去多加研究、考慮要如何解決這個事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9971.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9995.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
因為你剛剛提到說有很多委員提出來20幾個版本裡面大部分都具體性跟客觀普遍性都不太夠那其實我這邊有具體提到了一個所得稅的一個回饋地方機制的部分那我提案是提5%這很具體的一個狀態那我們希望針對這樣的一個做法的時候能夠來解決地方財政不足的問題以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9997.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9997.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
一、二 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10028.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10039.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
黃珊珊黃珊珊委員來我可以再講一下嗎?他在講電話等一下我先講一句話好不好如果要壓時間正不贊成?贊成壓時間請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10046.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10055.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
好 謝謝沒有 參考啦 這個也不列入紀錄啦但是 我們心裡就知道說大家反對壓實踐的請舉手好 請放下沒有啦 就是大家瞭解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10066.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10086.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
沒有啦,其實...欸,郭召瑋,其實我就讓...我可不可以問一個問題?這一屆...這一屆立法院到底你們行政院...你們財政部提不...提不提得出版本?這一屆有四年啊!四年你拿得出來還拿不出來?我們...我...我...我們對選民的承諾就是四年!不壓時間!壓掉幾屆啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10092.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10106.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
請黃珊珊、黃委員我剛剛在這邊坐很久也聽了大家的理由我覺得理由都不用再說了啦就是說要不要壓時間而已嘛那我覺得立法機關很簡單這是我們自己的決議那個建請已經很客氣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10107.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10135.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
時間你做不到,你們不是常常會說至愛難行,那就來文說為什麼我做不到。我覺得到時候可以正式的說明。大家也不會為難你,因為預算也要審了嘛,所以不需要說互相堅持啦。所以見請,有時間,你有困難,就到時候說明。我相信我們在座的財政委員會的委員也不會強人所難,但是自己的立場把它表明清楚啦。那個競速也是有時間壓力啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10136.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10153.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那何必要那個時間呢?如果照黃委員的講法何必要那個時間呢?那就沒有意義啦!對啊!對啊!我覺得黃商務員說有道理我們寫這樣過去阿如果他們覺得有困難到時候他們再回文也可以啦!就這樣也好啦!阿他剛剛已經表示有困難了咧!你都沒有聽那麼久!他已經看了一遍了啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10158.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10186.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我具體建議啦因為下個期如果還說要開公聽會要做什麼都可以就是是不是在委員會審議前送來我們也許在審議雖然我們根本沒審這個案子沒有排案大概幾個月對那原則上我們審議前嘛審議如果我們是9月開議我們10月才排那你10月才送來就好審議前我沒有壓時間審議前你送來至少我在審的時候有一個你的板 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10187.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10215.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
不是,我們在審的時候,到現在我還沒擺 我也很反對壓時間喔我覺得禁書就是有時間壓力喔那為什麼一定要壓一個日期 就是要給壓力啊行政部門當然叫你 我們認為這樣就有時間壓力因為這部法案有它的特殊性我真的沒騙你,跟一般的提案的壓時間不一樣我什麼時候反對你們壓過時間啊我從來都沒有啊 如果照黃商委員這麼說的話其實我們並沒有壓時間我們希望審議前也可以看到行政院的盤本你們壓一個日期啊 那你們如果沒有要壓時間的話你們就把那個劃掉就好啦 不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10216.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10234.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
其實不然我們弄一個前提嘛剛郭委員說的那麼好辦公聽會我們再辦一次公聽會他就要送過來這樣也是還可以嘛因為郭委員說要公聽會我也覺得支持嘛啊辦公聽會以後那就財政部就送過來嘛因為他已經有在做了辦公聽會就是在彙整意見彙整以後他就要送過來啦辦完公聽會之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10235.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10249.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
然後也不是說馬上就申出來啦,辦完公聽會就最主要是...你看你剛沒有來的時候每個縣市的立委講的意見都不一樣每個縣市的立委都站在自己的立場來談啊財政部已經去會診了嘛財政部已經開始做這個工作了就是22個縣市,就是22個縣市大家的意見都不一樣啊財政部也是要有一個決斷,不然所有事情都一而不決嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10262.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10287.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我看那個234提案我建議主席齁這個第一個提案先跳過啦他意思說先討論234要不然他有事情先討論234好了啦這樣子我們這個臨時提案的部分也請部長這邊來想一下他雖然講禁訴那因為委員有其他的想法我們就分到第二個臨時提案第二個臨時提案有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10290.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10290.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10310.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10333.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我覺得大家都希望財政部的版本趕快提出來那這個時候大家就提供我們的公式的意見那我這邊零提自己有二、三案兩個那那一位委員、委員等不到他請我幫他講一下他的第四案那我就二、三、四一起講可以嗎我們一個一個那第二案齁臨時提案有沒有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10334.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10360.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
沒有異議我們就確定沒有意見可以跟他加一樣嗎?再加個緊述兩個字不用了嗎?建請就好了嗎?好那第二案就是沒有意見我們就確定通過請判到第三案臨時提案請問第三個臨時提案有無異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10364.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10376.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
財政部有沒有意見沒有沒有意見好第三案財政部沒有意見我們照提案通過請翻到第四案是賴慧如委員的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10380.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10406.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
請部長這邊看一下他有一些修正他是說透過調整統籌分配稅款的權重改善弱勢縣市經費不足的問題然後希望緊述提出他說改緊述提出兩種具體分配權重作為修法參考好的那修改為緊述提出財政部總部長有沒有意見沒有意見沒有意見那我們就是修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10407.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10433.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
確定通過好謝謝主席來請郭昭偉主席我們一直糾葛在第一個案子的賴氏保委員的部分我嘗試提出一個稍微的修正大家參考看看就是呢這是從123456第6行嘛第6行最尾端的兩個字原詞建請就是加一個建嘛你們一直講建請少了一個建制啦然後於 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10434.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10462.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
建請財政部於開議後﹖你先聽我講完下個會期、第二會期開議後提出財政收支法草案的修法進度報告並於立法院財政委員會審議說明是否有當進行公決就是我的建議是這樣子好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10463.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10474.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
就是進度報告的時候你下個會期的時候就要提出來啦。這樣可不可以?好不好?您蓋一下啦。進度還要等三個月嗎?進度要三個月嗎?進度哪裡需要三個月?開議是九月。進度現在就可以擬出來,講實話進度一個月都太久了。提出進度欸。22個縣市大家意見都不一樣。黃珊珊、黃委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10494.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10507.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這個如果只有進度報告那現在就可以提了不用三個月但是如果說可以的話我們還是一樣我們希望在委員會審議時有版本可以審不然又變成是立法院擴權了我覺得這樣不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10511.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10528.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那這樣我們現在還是糾結在臨時提案第一案就是時間究竟要不要把它確定出來那也謝謝郭昭偉剛剛提出的一個折衷的方式那不曉得他提出的方式其他委員大家贊不贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10529.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10544.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
不支持!不支持!不支持!不支持!進度還要三個月喔!太久了!隨便問這個!進度一個月就已經超過了!我講實話!進度一個月就很恐慌!進度可能兩個禮拜!我們還是請一下提案人啦!原提案人!大使保代委員! |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10546.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10558.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
禁度不能接受啦!禁度下個禮拜就可以提了!禁度明天就可以提啦!還什麼了不起啊!馬上明天就可以提啦!我們的工作就是督促啊!民日、復民日、民日和期多! |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10574.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10592.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這各位瞭解一點喔 這個郭文你也是老鳥不是菜鳥 見情就等於是隨便你做文章啦 見情欸 建議請你拜託 Please 哎呦這麼Humble吧 只差立法院只差沒有跟財政部長下跪而已 見情欸 不是 不是 見情啦 見情見情 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10597.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10624.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好吧 既然是 既然建請了 我們就要求證如流了 我們是這一部法案有特定性的我們剛剛有提到說呢 也不是說沒有 讓他們一段時間在整個下個會期 也尊重你們 壓一個時間嘛來提出修法進度報告 就是你讓他這段時間就有一個 有一個比較把握嘛你現在 讓他說現在沒有把握的情況 你讓他做沒有把握 那個制度有漏洞 那不是大家都在扛 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10625.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10643.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那現在就有兩個提議嘛,一個是修正,一個是原版嘛,一個是修正嘛,修正他就說加了建前兩次再加進度嘛,那不然就針對這兩個版本,已經討論這麼久,他還說要討論這麼久,不然大家馬上看到底,決定要原來的版本還是修正的版本因為剛剛我有提議說要辦公廳會啊,對啊,對啊,對啊,我會在排 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10646.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10651.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
公聽會之後,然後還有各個縣市他們對於這個公聽會地方制度法這個沒有那麼快的時間啊我們是希望說財政部在開會之後,下個會期開議之後就是把那個至少你這個暑假收集到的各個22個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10674.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10690.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
他們到底現在的這個指標是怎麼樣那有沒有共識出來利用修會的時間大家再開個會好好尋出一個最大的共識另外就是公聽會等這個都確定出來之後再看說修法要怎麼修 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10691.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10720.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
好 謝謝李委如你所願我會再繼續來安排公聽會我也會辦開什麼會我們都會趙委員的意思趙委我剛剛提的案子能不能請部長回應一下好 請部長回應一下剛剛這個郭昭偉他的一個修正是 謝謝趙委謝謝各位委員那我想我們剛剛已經講過就是說原來有關我們賴委員這個提案是希望在開以前提出版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10721.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10748.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那我們也提過就是說其實對於委員會雖然非常就是說非常非常的容許我們用所以用一個建請但是我們對於委員會的提案的決議我們都是非常尊重而且一定會在實現內把它達成那所以呢雖然是建請但是對我們來說依然我們要遵照辦理的話事實上確實有困難度所以我必須要先說明因為否則就是一個不負責任就是說我是雖然這樣同意但最後又提不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10749.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10773.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
所以我們這裡還是建議是不是說就是建請財政部就是說在這個下個會期開議以後我們提出一個修法的一個進度報告我想因為這中間第一個我們財政部還是會去跟地方政府去了解他們的指標真正意義比如說剛剛也有委員提出一些在指標面要考慮的一些因素也蠻多也都有提出這樣的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10774.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10790.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以我們還必須要第一個把它具體化然後來凝聚一個共識因為最主要指標講是這麼講但是你要怎麼把它具體化讓它能夠成為一個數字或是權重以及它的分配的一個比例這個是這個都需要時間去溝通以及它的影響層面因為這個縣市跟那個縣市他們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10793.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10814.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
不是那麼容易溝通,這個人覺得這個縣市對他最好,那個縣市覺得說因為你這樣所以我就會受損所以這個都需要凝聚共識,都需要時間,那這個部分我們也會努力去做那另外也謝謝召委也說會再召開公聽會,包含召專家學者也會來還有各縣市政府,大家都在聽取這樣的一個意見,我想我們一直朝這個路上在努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10815.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10829.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
但是如果要壓時間的話,確實大家都知道不是那麼可能,否則為什麼25年的5個版本都過不了關嗎?就是因為這個原因,所以我們是不是建議是這樣子?講百萬文喔!講百萬文喔!你的意思是,剛才郭文的提案是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10839.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10863.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
開議後提出開議前提出開議後提出修法進度是不是進度報告好那加一個括弧加一個括弧一定要包括修法的版本進度你可以進度啊沒有不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10865.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10885.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
版本要有啊!你要有版本啊!你沒有版本的民意啊!其實那個...這樣子好不好部長我知道你們很尊重立法院嘛所以有沒有建請他們都會做所以我們也不用建請我們就原來這個版本就好那如果說你們真的提不出來齁這個當然我們立法院有我們的進度要走嘛我們要對人民有交代嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10886.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10900.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
而且剛剛很多人說還有其他相關法令啊財政什麼地方制度法、公職法相關法令我相信我們新政府上來效率也很好我相信他們也會在各個委員會提出尤其是民黨是執政黨一定會在各個委員會提出相對應的應該修正的版本嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10902.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10929.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那我們帶領著往前走,帶領著國家往前走。我想執政黨也不會落後啦,他也會提出相關的,反正他們不提出來我們也沒辦法嘛。那當然我們也期待他們有提出其他相對的,如果你說治權的部分嘛,我有看的相關很多嘛,地方制度法啊,或者公債法啊等等的,公債法,該提出的當然就努力去提出來,我們今天就針對這個。我想在討論消息其實是一樣啦,如果大家沒意見就是這樣子,有一件當然的部分就是民主時代嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10930.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10939.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
當然你們也可以自愛難行,這個剛剛黃珊瑋也說過了我們寫公文正式嘛,正式公文回來了公聽會我覺得為什麼不用寫進去,這個工作是我們要辦的,這個不是要求財政部好,謝謝,那現在請宣讀剛剛郭國文、張偉他提的這個修正的動議唸給大家聽一下,臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10960.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10987.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
臨時提案第一案郭文提出的修正動議後段建請財政部於下會期第二會期開議後提出財政收支劃分法修正草案修法進度向立法院財政委員提出提出修法進度報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10989.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10992.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
現在立法院財政委員會提出修法進度報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11012.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11037.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
進度他們先來。這樣子好不好?這個再跟國務院參詳一下啦齁。前面已經減刑了啦。後面你們覺得這樣子,這樣就困難了。講到這麼困難就這樣齁。我給你開一條路啦。原來說開疫前。開疫後兩個月就三年了。再給你多兩個月。開疫後就等於從現在開始算就半年了。就差不多半年時間了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11040.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11064.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
開議後了啦!開議後兩個月啦!我們主要是要一個態度!時間我都覺得好商量!重要是財政部要提出版本!這是我們的態度!開議後兩個月!十一月底!啊不!十一月底乾脆!要到十一月底!要趕快結束以啊!十一月!好啦!我們就確定了齁!就是請...開議後!好來!請川普黨講一下! |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11069.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11088.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
還是跟委員報告,這真的不是說時間,為我們要有共識才能夠達到最大的共識,才能夠真正進到法條裡面去,不是說壓一個時間,壓一個時間最後並沒有共識的情況下,其實它的意義是不大的啦,謝謝,真的委員 那就照原版本吧,如果這樣就照原版本吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11089.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11091.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
財政部擺明了就是因為上面沒有交代你不敢、不敢擔任啊!好,現在休息協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11121.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11144.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
趙偉我覺得不用再協商了就是大家做個決定了啦就是說因為民進黨團很早就說他們不提版本所以為什麼大家今天要下日期的原因嘛如果你沒有說過我永遠不提版本我們為什麼要下日期呢對啊如果財政部是不下版本現在就說不用浪費大家時間我們明天就可以開始審 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11146.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11173.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
我們就是要你一個態度就是你要有版本是這個很重要但你現在為止一直打太劇情就是你不要有版本因為長官沒有交代就這樣啊 那個那個黃帝和阿鼎林你也是十幾我們在野黨執政樓提了十幾個版本你也都不能修一大堆理由賴清德一聲吝嗇馬上修了馬上過了這東西就是這樣啊很悲哀啊這個總部長真的一點健保都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11175.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11202.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這個每個版本差異性這麼大要怎麼修啊?這個版本真的比較複雜啦那個賴委員沒有修的財政部有自己版本嘛不一定要配合大家嘛財政部我自己有提版本賴委員你剛剛休息很久後我們休息一下好不好?那個現在不是休息那你這樣一直講我不用休息啊現在沒有休息啊你就不要休息啊他剛剛說休息的主席還是有休息啊你還沒說啊你也要說啊這個直播的這個怎麼可以沒有講休息沒有直播的我們讓麥克風有休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11204.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11206.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那剛剛才出來講,講一下有什麼關係?我是建議說大家休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11216.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11241.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
沒有公式表決法,輸了就認了嘛!反正你還好我輸了我們就認啦!輸了就認啦!如果你們也都認同說公聽會阿還有那些事權、財權都很重要的話是不是這些東西等開完會我們會診了以後會診以後再事實講出來?要不然開完如果有問題怎麼提議? |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11246.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11247.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
開會很難掌握各界的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11270.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11294.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
因為現在整個還涉及事權的地方制度法還有五委員的原名單單一個原名的解決就有三個法這個東西一向可能大家都從來沒面對過一個項目而已就要修到三個法其實整合是很困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11296.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11312.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11314.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11327.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
因為壓下去我們就不夠客氣了才是我們啊你們就順便提一下我們壓了以後你們就順便提一下啊所以這東西從先前都還沒有討論過你知道嗎?公代法如果討論的話還要再找直轄市來因為原民區跟直轄市沒有那是真的沒有關係啦我還要扯貴貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11345.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11346.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
他們的就是欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11349.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11373.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
真的啦拜託委員沒有公司那我們百分之一出來他們演了直轄市每個地方政府每個地方政府都舉財政委員你贊成給他再多兩個月這樣子就結束了好不好真的啦再給他多兩個月你看你一出來為什麼那麼多年都沒有過就是因為那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11376.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11376.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
講得講得講得 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11396.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11416.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
待會原金到兩個月了,就這樣吧,你們不能再說嗎?啊我們今天委員就把他出去,啊建勤?對啊,就建勤啊,建勤而已不要再盯著啦,那表決很無聊啊如果建勤還要這樣的話,就難看,這麼小的事只有建勤而已啊,有要幹嘛? |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11429.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11429.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
免費時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11446.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11467.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
謝謝,謝謝委員,不要這麼講,你們提醒我們也都會盡力去做啦,你們也知道我們過程有什麼過關,我們都會跟委員的決心,我們還是實話說啦,我做不到啦,跟你們說做不到,我覺得是不好的,但是我覺得這是一個很重要的事。 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11478.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11478.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
議員委員會議員會議員會議員會議員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11507.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11510.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11528.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11549.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
好 那現在我們繼續開會 現在有兩個提案一個是賴世保、賴委員的提案一個是剛剛我們郭國文、郭昭瑜有一個修正的提案那部長有沒有最後 你有沒有什麼智慧的想法我還是聽聽看你 因為我很尊重財政部的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11551.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11566.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
謝謝召委謝謝召委那也謝謝各位委員我想我們還是很實話實說也就是說對於我們財友會的決議我們其實財政部歷來都是非常的尊重也是會去照辦所以我們在這裡跟非常坦白跟各位說 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11567.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11569.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
也就是說剛剛賴委員這個提案其實真的是有困難所以我們才會建議說我們可以在會議因為中間還要開公聽會嘛然後我們也還會再召開相關的一個地方政府來討論嘛所以認為我們這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11582.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11597.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
在聽取各多方意見以後那這樣我們才提出一個修法進度的報告的話那這樣也才會了解我們大家在這個努力的一個方向我想這個還是我們要說明因為實話還是要實說是到原來的啦就原版就好了反正一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11610.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11636.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
好 那照原案贊成原案賴事發委員所提的臨時提案也這個沒有什麼的齁臨時提案贊成的請舉手一、一、二、三、四、五五個五票好 謝謝那現場委員人數有幾位八位八位五位那已經反對你要舉要舉嗎反對的請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11646.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11650.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
確定照原提案臨時提案代委員的提案通過謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11673.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11696.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
本市會議做如下決議財政收支劃分法修正草案等20案審查完均並更正令則其繼續審查請問各位人對以上的決議有無異議沒有異議確定通過散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11714.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11739.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
19案：立法院第11屆第1會議名稱：立法院第1會議名稱：立法院第2會議名稱：立法院第3會議名稱：立法院第4會議名稱：立法院第5會議名稱：立法院第6會議名稱：立法院第7會議名稱：立法院第8會議名稱：立法院第9會議名稱：立法院第10會議名稱：立法院第11會議名稱：立法院第12會議名稱：立法院第13會議名稱：立法院第14會議名稱：立法院第14會議名稱：立法院第15會議名稱：立法院第16會議名稱� |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11744.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11747.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
財政收支劃分法議員委員會第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法 |