| IVOD_ID |
160099 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160099 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-10T11:44:28+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-10T11:59:54+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc97126241197c249808d4803d2cc4ed6173071a30f584bceeba99fd113443f1ac9aa35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:44:28 - 11:59:54 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席有請我們司法院副秘書長還有我們保護部次長兩位好今天其實召委定這個題目這個前半段有一點我看起來是有一點文不對題這個其實有一點畫錯重點有一點畫錯重點但是我今天非常清楚召委的意思就是在講這個劣勢裁定說重點是整個 |
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在我們做出裁定以後啊 那院方跟檢方中間到底發生了什麼事啊你說 類似裁定其實啊 以招委定的題目來看的話我也不知道什麼叫什麼依據啊這個名詞其實我也沒有聽過啦 那但是呢萬文生義啊 應該是講比較簡單的一個裁定啊應該是比較簡略的一個裁定啊 你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
62.898 |
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今天我聽了這麼多委員還有你們的答詢我有很大的一個感慨我們在三權分立底下就是說我們司法享有這麼高的一個超然還有優越甚至於一般稱的司法高權那反映在我們實務上裡面我就感受到司法體系從這個案子來看的話如果為這個案子來下一個定義的話叫司法體系封閉然後精英壟斷然後不透明 |
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93.05 |
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這會造成什麼樣的一個效果呢就是說你給你這麼崇高的司法威信但是人民的信任那你怎麼樣去畫上等號幾位都是法律人坐在這邊剩下幾乎都是法律人那我一個最大的一個感觸就是說你這個整個案子這個案子 鄭文智這個案子裡面讓人覺得非常詭異的一個地方就是說啊你在 |
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119.295 |
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高等法院的法官在113年11月14號做出這樣一個裁定那我看到你這個整個114年3月28號好像這個案這個裁定才送出來那個副秘書長可不可以解釋一下這個到底是什麼意思這段期間到底發生了什麼事 |
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發生了什麼事然後次長你應該也要跟社會對話你們到底是什麼時候收到還是你們全部都沒有收到本席的問題就很簡單法官也是人憲法保障你這個終身的一個保障司法的一個獨立問你們問題你們講說這個都是個案好像講的個案都不能問哪有這種事要看個案是怎麼樣的一個個案這個哪叫個案 |
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170.629 |
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法官也是人欸今天是因為說這個我們三權分立底下大家認為說我們把司法就交給你法官你來代表國家你不能亂判欸你亂判還是枉法裁判也不行欸所以這個案子我很大的一個感慨就是說 |
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186.846 |
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201.639 |
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我不跟你爭執什麼劣勢裁定你下了一個判決裡面一個裁判就是你不是用判決不然你就是用裁定你裁定的方式你口頭上也可以你說我在審理單裡面我來註記也可以或者說我用書面正式的書面來製作也可以問題來了你做出來以後 |
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210.453 |
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這是我法官的意識 不 這不是法官的意識這代表國家的意識一個人到底要不要關 一個人要交保多少一個人到底要不要用科技監控 這都不是法官的意識你代表司法 你代表國家在執法好啦 執法完以後你不是你說了算啊你說了算以後你要讓人家表達有沒有其他的意見啊那總要讓檢察官知道吧檢察官到底知不知道複密 到底有沒有通知檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
237.489 |
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那個 謝謝委員那個指證齁 就是很遺憾的 這個案件確實他真的就是以一個違反程序規定啊不是不是 我不想知道有沒有違反程序規定 那當然違反程序規定是說檢察官知不知道 那檢察官知道以後 兩件事情嘛 第一個就是宋達嘛 我法官 |
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257.719 |
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274.393 |
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我代表國家表達這個意思表示完以後我要讓外界周知那至少呢我就跟你說好你這個當事人你這個被告你現在這個科技監控不必了那你這個加保2000萬那可以你代表國家做出這樣的一個裁定可以可是呢 |
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274.753 |
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你明明知道說做出來以後檢察官可以看告的啊那檢察官看告以後那你總是法官這個小學生也知道你法官的素養你也知道那資深法官呢你總要讓檢察官知道說他是可以看告的你總要通知吧是用打電話的方式還是書面送達的方式我 早上我都沒聽到咧跟我答案那個 次長你知道嗎 |
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300.165 |
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各位報告那目前台高檢察署檢查這個調查的確診兩個事實第一個第一個是10月9號檢察官的確有在延長科控的這個開庭的時候有確定的表達要要求要具體的延長監控這第一點第二點是到目前為止檢察官沒有收到任何有關延長監控的裁定或者是宣示這兩點是確定的阿咱咱別說命啊不命 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
326.755 |
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你會不知道這個案子就是違法嗎就是因為他是那個違私的違反那個訴訟法規定的也因此呢就是高院的自律委員會啟動那個自律那也決定把他們送那個法庭 |
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346.229 |
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這個有點開玩笑 這個社會喔 社會實在是你說要建立好不容易這個司法的威信你們說你們很努力 法官依法來審判然後呢 我是很權威的 全部都不能給我干涉個案是啊 社會上誰敢跟你們干涉個案現在台灣已經走到這個以現在台灣 現在大家對司法的一個要求可是你們有這個威信可是做出這樣子 你不覺得荒腔走板嗎 |
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374.164 |
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394.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
郭文貴市長你不是覺得這很奇怪嗎這個如果要惡意去評價的話就兩種狀況啊一種狀況 你是臨床工作的喔 忘記了喔專業都忘記了的啊第二你就是要偷偷放人嘛 就這麼簡單嘛你叫我解讀 我完全想不出往正面去解讀耶市長不是嗎我這樣解讀有錯嗎還是我腦袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
403.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
426.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
錯亂 我跟人 我的腦袋瓜不正常張偉我這樣想很合理吧你也做過檢查關的咧是不是這樣說所以我都覺得這個案子喔非常非常的一個荒唐啦所以這到底隱藏了些什麼 不知道但是我要求啦這個案子要好好去做徹查啦複密 合理吧總要回應社會的一個期待啊可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
430.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
441.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
行政調查的部分司法院一直在進行至於說有沒有涉及到其他的更高的犯罪更高的圍屍這個部分檢方也已經有啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
444.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
458.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
官官相護 我會跟你這樣講 我會覺得這樣不好外界會做這樣的一個解讀真的不好啦 真的不好另外我要來就教的就是說我們今天談到的就是科技監控這個部分 我反而會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
459.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
475.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我反而會覺得這個部分啊涉及到整個專業訓練的一個問題啦你當然科技監控來看的話我們整個訴訟程序裡面你說在進行當中你要去保全這個被告保全這個證據我們又怕過度去侵害到 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
475.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
497.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
人生他自己的一個自由所以好像是又把他給降低了 又有科技監控另外呢 受刑人的部分你認為說要讓他復歸社會未必要讓他出來以後又怕這個整個社會的一個安全網所以再加這個科技的一個監控可是呢 我反而會覺得對法官 對檢察官來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
500.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
527.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個部分反而不是他們的在行不是他們的在行怎麼樣實務再去加強教育的訓練科技執法這個過程裡面保障他的一個對被告的一個保全或在過程裡面不要有任何損失這個部分我認為司法院也好或者說我們法務部也好這個部分應該專業的部分應該是教育訓練應該再去加強好不好那我想最後一個問題我要再來請教的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
528.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
543.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
國安的部分我有一個很大的感慨最近我們看到這幾個月共諜案幾乎成月經文每個月都在爆發年年這樣在曝光從現役的軍官 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
545.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
562.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
退役的上校一路到民間的協作者幾乎各行各業幾乎都淪陷了這些共諜案它其實不是捕風捉影這查出來了也起訴了也送到法院但是問題是說查得多判得清社會也未必看得下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
563.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
588.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我就拿那個退役上校簽署那個投降承諾書那件來看法院最後判了七年六個月看起來是合理我覺得七年六個月大家也不會覺得輕跟重大家覺得法院判了嘛也不會太輕嘛可是呢你再去看看司法院跟法務部你們知道民間討論的是什麼嗎他們在討論的是說一個軍人偷一台這個洗衣機破十幾噸啊簽投降書的破七噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
592.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
615.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
方向到底有沒有搞錯很難去評價因為法官獨立每一個人對案情的一個掌握判斷會有所不同但是呢這個社會不是反對依法審判但是人民看到的是說法院可不可以對得起這個國家的一個風險量刑的準則我們講了很久了講了很久了你很難去我們要求說法官獨立審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
618.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
640.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
然後呢又給他指指點點可是呢我們2021年我們就講說要設立一個量刑準則委員會也送出了刑事案件妥適量刑的一個草案現在2025年了啦2025年了啦 也沒看到啦到底什麼時候準備要上路我看遙遙無期啦我們司法院這個地方有沒有什麼打算沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
641.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
670.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那個跟委員報告就是您剛說的這個草案確實現在就是就是還在那個立法院那另外呢就是司法院自己本身這一端可以那個努力那個測定的就是我們在先前的時候已經有完成一個焦點團體建議那個法院就是辦理這個國安的那個安全國安那個事件的時候的量刑的一些那個準則那我們最近呢有打算就是在那個開會因為就是那個新進 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
673.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
675.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
因為在那個基礎設施那個部分我最主要就是說案件的審理依法審判我們都可以懂但問題就是說我們很怕案件到最後相關類似的國安案件到最後都是法官自己看著辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
700.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
727.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
自己愛怎麼判就怎麼判我們最糟糕的就是最怕的就是這個雖然檢察官對於整個法院的審判他可以依法來提起上訴可是常常會看到很多案件跟社會上落差太大了你像比如說我們並不是要求關案件一個人全部都要去涉案的人全部都要關一輩子但是呢如果有些案件你去看收了敵國或者收了我們一般講的都是講中國收了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
729.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
749.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
中國那邊的錢 然後我們也去洩密然後也簽署了投降文件你說這個不叫危害國安 什麼叫危害國安那甚至於過去還有去判緩刑的國安案件如果說證據明確 那還可以去判緩刑還有犯貨態度良好的 也有去講說一時失慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
754.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
774.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
然後誤觸法典 然後用這樣的一個方式來判緩刑啊這個啊 我都會覺得莫名其妙啦我建議啊 我這樣要求好了 不只建議我們司法院 或者法務部這個地方啊可不可以整理一下這幾年類似緩刑的一個案例 國安案件的來送交我們本委員會好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
776.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
800.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
是 可以齁 合理嘛 我們再來好好的去檢視一下我們現在法院裡面 現在有沒有國安法庭有 有國安法庭了 有專庭有這個專庭了 那就案件分到誰的手上就看運氣了就變這樣子了 法官有的判重 有的判輕那對於這個部分 國安我倒覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
801.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
817.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
真的是不能是空話量刑也不能去失衡那量刑的標準不依的話我們很怕很怕到最後你說蔣淵去抓了那麼多那判下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
818.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
838.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那跟人民的一個對於法律的一個確信或者是期待相差那麼大你說國安法的案件你最多判到12年公安罪可以判到死刑那你情報人員協助人員協助洩密的限制的沒有加重然後退伍的還要加重像這些邏輯都錯亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
842.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
867.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我今天最語重心長要講就是說其實請司法院真的要正視這樣的一個問題國安的問題不能變成司法的一個盲區所以我要求我們司法院可以再針對於這三年就好了這三年國安案件判緩刑的這些摘要跟理由我們稍微做一個分析我們再來看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
868.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
896.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好好的去做一個檢視才不會讓社會會覺得說這個法院的一個判決裡面是不是法官的一個恣意我這不是要干預判決我是要問我們司法體系裡面到底有沒有辦法扛得住整個國家的一個安全因為制度賦予法官獨立審判制度賦予法官享有這麼多的一個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
898.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
898.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好 謝謝 |