| IVOD_ID |
160013 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160013 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T13:14:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T13:26:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdceb26f4c31057a9f7aa9dd72f8e909e2235ac7c33fa41034565dc74b8a2e1778a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
楊曜 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:14:19 - 13:26:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 主席請下 洪普澤 |
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部長好 部長上個禮拜勞動部有發布新聞稿說就審計部查核了109年到113年度就業安定基金經費支出的情形的審核結果對不對 是那其中有認為就業安定基金辦理勞動節形象影片製作 |
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臉書粉絲團經營、僑簽活動、春節紅包袋、三節禮品等各項支出和就業安定基金支出的用途相關聯性不高應該要屬於公務預算支出的範疇,應該要收回 |
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那部長對於這樣子的一個報告大概有對外說明了說勞動部預計要分幾年來歸電對不對 |
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85.838 |
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因為審計的報告最後的結果審查結果裡面是判定這個是修正簡列要追回那從過去大概修正如果判定修正簡列也就是說他不該使用救安基金那應該這個因為這些業務是在業務上面有執行他的需要所以應該回到公務預算來去處理那所以過去用公務預算編列公務預算來歸電是 |
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如果被判定修正檢列的方法做法之一對以前有過有過例子嗎有規定因為我我我編列公務商規定這是過去會有的做法你這邊有有有什麼有什麼例子嗎因為因為規定我覺得怪撥補呢是事先 |
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從公務預算把錢到給基金這個是事事先那基金已經先不合目的使用 |
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149.008 |
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168.624 |
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在編列預算 那你預算科目要變在哪裡其實某部分就是說 這意思是說這個支出是在業務上面支出只是他不應該用救安基金也就是他應該用公務預算所以等於有點像是公務預算的範疇要編回還給救安基金 |
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它是一個還的概念我知道因為就歸店的字面上意思來看也知道是還我現在只是說在預算法上的依據是什麼我不是很清楚你們勞動部有誰可以回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
189.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
206.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
然後你們可能會要怎麼要編列在什麼預算科目這個算是新增的預算跟姚委員說明第一個是我們確實勞務部行政部門我們還是必須依照審計的結果來去做辦理跟相關的規範來去辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
208.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
237.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那但是這個編列供預算規定是我們認為可以做的做法之一但我們知道現在外界會覺得好像這是不是會是用全民的稅金等等的測看法但詳細具體的做法我們會再跟行政院跟審計來討論我現在還沒有討論到是不是會用全民的稅金我現在是來講一個預算上的東西就是說規定它本身是預算法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
239.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
259.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
規定的報告委員因為根據我們這次我們部裡面就業安定基金這個5年的這個支出因為審計部審核的結果是修正減劣收回所以依照這樣子的一個審定的結果我們的做法就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
261.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
280.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
就是代表說這個基金的用途可能審計的看法是覺得這個關聯性不高那是相對來講的話我們基金要收回來的話那就是過去的做法是有這樣子的例子就是說可能還是要從公務預算來撥補這是另外增編這個預算來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
282.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
299.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這是一個過去可能可以處理的方向那我這邊有提供一個例子是過去曾經我們的就業安定基金在民國90幾年的時候有內政部某一個計畫那那個計畫是就是屬於這個當時是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
304.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
322.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
請向我們救安基金來申請補助這個失能老人跟身心障礙補助使用居家服務的計畫那我們當年度這個計畫有來申請我們救安基金的補助但是這個經過審計部的審核結果也是認為說應該要修正簡列所以後來這一筆一億多的這個申請補助就 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
332.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
344.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
在當年度就被修正了那後來內政部在後面的年度他有編了這筆預算來還給我們救安基金這是過去有的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
347.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
362.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我剛剛跟委員報告你們是配合內政部的活動嗎所以是內政部編給你們剛剛有跟委員報告這個案例是內政部來申請救安基金的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
362.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
388.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
的案例那也曾經發生過審計部審核的結果是認為說可能跟基金的用途關聯性不高所以當年的審計的審定的結果是要修正跟我們的這個案件是相同的錢必須要還給救安基金這個是是沒有問題的只是說在預算上 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
390.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
409.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以有過前例是這樣子就對了有過類似的案例好那我再問就是說就業安定基金的使用項目上面現在就是有幾個項目是被認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
418.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
430.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
跟基金支出用途關聯性不高其中呢其中有紅包袋有紅包袋春聯紙圖筒那就我所知春聯就是紙寫紙寫了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
444.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
468.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
部長的名字紅包袋也只寫了部長的名字這個我的認定就不是關聯性不高而已這個是沒有關聯性部長你聽懂我的意思嗎我可以理解楊委員的意思那當然關聯性不高這是審計部給判定但是我就說這些相關的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
469.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
如果是我的話 我不會這樣做我知道我知道所以我並不是想並沒有要為難你的意思我現在的意思是說像這個你們有沒有可能檢討看看有沒有不當得力的問題如果有不當得力或者是違法營私的話目前檢調正在辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
495.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
可是不當得利是公法上的民事關係對但是我說這部分你們並不一定你們並不一定要這個跟刑事案件是兩回事懂我的意思嗎跟我的說明剛剛像講這些我們這些包括春聯等等等目前我們已經很清楚明定救安基金未來就是不能夠做這些事情了不是我是說過去的這一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
523.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
549.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你們會不會考慮做不當得力 民事上因為部長剛剛有講嘛形勢上的問題已經是檢調在做處理這個我們不置評像是說看起來紅包袋只寫部長的名字沒有任何跟勞工就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
550.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
566.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
勞工權益勞工福祉有關的東西這個我的認定這個是有不當得理的我想跟姚元說明這些紅包袋或者是春聯它其實比較它也是發給 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
567.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
594.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
老公朋友的不是他是發給老公朋友但是他的用途可能是比方說會辦一些活動的時候他發這些紅包袋他作為比較能夠去吸引這些老公朋友來參與相關的活動當時他去設計這些紅包袋的用意是這樣也就是說可能我們辦了一些活動那你發送這些相關的文宣品比較能夠去吸引老公朋友願意再來多參與當時他的用意是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
596.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
623.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
部長我這樣子講,就是說我其實是想要問一下你們的態度因為我向來不是很喜歡去追究離職的人也不想要為難不是造成結果的現任者的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
625.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
643.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
只是說我自己的認定我並不覺得說辦活動然後的文宣品上面辦活動本身 趙部長的講法是跟勞工福祉有關文宣品上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
644.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
674.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
全部就都沒有這個是可以的啦這是我個人的看法懂我意思齁我知道姜委員的意思對啦那我最後還是還是要講啦這個就是從許民村部長在任的時候我一直在講我在審基金預算的時候也講過啦我覺得就業安定基金的收支保管和運用辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
675.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
703.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
裡面第五條裡面講的辦理提升勞工福祉事項我覺得這個這個規定這麼籠統的規定假如你們不想辦法把它具體化我相信洪志安部長在任的時候不會有問題啦不過法規不夠不夠明確就是會因人 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
706.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
724.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為誰當部長而有變化現在關於救安基金的收支管理用辦法我們正在修訂中我們現在把第12款拿掉以外其他款我們也希望能夠讓他的更加的明確目前其實也在修訂中 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
737.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
759.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就安定基金的時候保障勞工權益的時候綁手綁腳啦我們也不希望這樣子啦就是該應該要用就用可是一定要用在勞工的所以這也是為什麼我覺得應該把規範給規範清楚在這個線內就是大家可以安心的使用才不會用的心驚膽顫這也是我們希望把規範規範得更清楚的原因好謝謝部長謝謝主席 |