| IVOD_ID |
16001 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16001 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
26 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-12T08:31:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-12T12:34:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:02:41 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d38aadac80e2e3f804f0709a7fb2e748319186e52af124432915d6fdc21a48f875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:19 - 12:34:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1738.032 |
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1740.517 |
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報告委員會：初期委員10人：已足法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1750.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1776.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會．第25次全體委員會議．事入．時間中華民國113年6月6日．星期四上午9時至11時46分．地點紅樓301會議室．出席委員沈伯陽等11人．列席委員林德福等14人．列席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員．主席王昭吉委員定語．報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思入．決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1777.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1800.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
．邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況．並備質詢。．國防部部長顧立雄報告委員沈柏洋等17人質詢．具有國防部部長顧立雄、全民防衛動員署副署長．兼執行長李純美、政治作戰局局長陳玉玲．通信電子資訊參謀次長、市次長盧建中．國家中生科學研究院院長張忠誠等即席答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1801.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1822.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及巡打結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆會要求提供之資訊請國防部以二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從其所定三委員林毅君、羅志強及蘇清泉等三人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1827.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1850.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有 我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項 邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊．併請國家通訊傳播委員會．法務部、中華電信股份有限公司列席．並備質詢 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1854.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1872.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們現在介紹在場委員首先介紹陳永康陳委員徐巧欣徐委員介紹與會列席的官員國家安全局蔡明彥蔡局長國防部資通電軍指揮部簡華慶簡指揮官 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1882.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1885.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
軍事情報局局長楊晉瑟楊局長電展室郭志國郭主任政治作戰局陳玉林陳局長憲兵指揮部副指揮官余大任軍事安全總隊總隊長汪世偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1908.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1913.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
海洋委員會海巡署副署長謝慶清通知組檢任分析師盧志賢內政部警政署副署長陳永利刑事警察局副局長陳炯旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1934.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1943.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
內政部移民署副署長林鴻恩國際級執法事務組副組長江琳法務部政務次長黃士傑檢察司主任檢察官白聖文法務部調查局副局長吳富梅 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1964.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1987.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
通訊監察處處長廖崇賢國家通訊傳播委員會副主任委員翁伯宗基礎設施處處長陳春木平台事業管理處副處長黃天陽 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1991.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2010.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
法律事務處副處長謝佩銀．中華電信股份有限公司業務管理處副總經理林文智本日會議邀請國家安全局． |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2012.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2018.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
率同相關情報機關報告國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊．並備質詢．現在請國安局蔡局長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2036.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2063.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好,謝謝主席主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生,大家好那感謝大院安排本局進行國家如何運用民間通訊設施收羅國安資訊專題報告本局僅以縱理國家情報工作之立場提出要點報告如此第一部分是有關於法定權責第一,本局縱理國家情報工作依照我們的國家情報工作法的規範統合情報機關就足以影響國家安全或利益的資訊進行收集、延期、處理以及運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2064.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2086.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
資訊面向主要包含有涉及到國家安全或利益、洩漏國家機密、外諜、敵諜、為外國勢力或境外敵對勢力、刺探或收集情資等。第二,依照《通訊保障及監察法》以下簡稱《通保法》第7條第1項規定,為避免國家安全遭受危害,以收集境外敵對勢力情報之必要者,重禮國家情報 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2087.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2110.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
工作機關首長．也就是國安局局長．也就是本人．得核發通訊監察書．有關執行境外敵對勢力之通訊監察．包含境外敵對勢力或其工作人員．在境內、跨境以及境外之通訊。．第三,通訊監察為國安增防重要的手段之一．現警調等司法檢查機關．得依通保法第7條的規定．申請對境外敵對勢力或其工作人員實施通訊監察。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2111.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2131.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第4依照通保法第7條第2項的規定受監察人在境內涉有戶籍者本局在核發通訊檢查書之前應該先呈報臺灣高等法院來進行同意但情況為籍者不在此限第5依照通保法第7條第3項的規定上訴但書的情形本局應該立即來通知將 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2132.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2153.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
通訊監察書合發的情形來呈報．台灣高等法院專責法官來補行同意．假如沒有在48小時之內獲得同意者．應該立即來停止通訊監察。本局依照通保法相關的規範．辦理、審查、監督以及集合．而且每年都要實施定期、不定期的通訊監察作業督法．並且邀請台灣高等法院專責法官來會同參與。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2156.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2184.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第二大部分是有關於作業的程序依照通保法的規定本局就現警調等司法警察機關涉及到境外敵對勢力偵防案件需求的申請辦理核發通訊監察書審核的過程非常嚴謹並且確尊相關法律的規範第一,審核程序嚴謹本局核發通訊監察書的過程歷經12道審核程序嚴格檢審案情的必要性以及證據的關聯性後續提交台灣高等法院來進行同意之後使得核發通訊監察書 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2186.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2212.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
確尊法律規範本局均依照通保法的規定經嚴格審查程序合法通訊檢查書並且定期不定期監督執行的情況以符合法徵的規範來強化我們國安增防工作的推展至於當前熱議的集會遊行數據收集因為不是通保法核准的事項所以本局不曾也從未有逾越法規的合法行為第三部分是有關於結語恆於當前中共對我附和事 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2213.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2232.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
國安威脅情勢加劇．本局將持續依法嚴謹辦理通訊監察業務．協助縣警調等司法警察機關．共同克服針防工作挑戰．確保國家安全穩固不墜以上報告敬請各位委員先進不吝指導我們其他機關的報告請參閱書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2236.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2253.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘﹖非本會委員6分鐘10點30分發言登記截止﹖如果有臨時提案﹖請在10點30分之前提出11點左右是詢答情形進行處理﹖現在請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2266.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2276.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
謝謝主席我們請國安局然後這個NCC還有中華電信請國安局局長NCC還有中華電信謝謝好謝謝主席薛委員早早安北檢上個禮拜把王逸川民進黨政策會執行長列為被告那他用他自然被告身份傳喚到庭說明王逸川他說他有資料那這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2295.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2310.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
引起國家的軒然大破是因為竟然有辦法我們上個禮拜有討論過竟然有辦法透過所謂的資料分析去監控不同場合四個場合的不同的年齡層還可以區分出他的政黨傾向 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2311.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2334.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個是讓大家都感到很意外那今天我們經過包含是爆料人我們看下一張投影片我們就發現其實實際上這件事情是在民進黨5月27號的黨政主管會議上面那參與的高層包含了民進黨的代理秘書長兩位副秘書長還有王逸川執行長以及民進黨新媒體中心主任詹賀順 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2335.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2356.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
他用口頭報告的方式拿出了一份釋放電訊的報告來做相關的交叉比對這與王逸川他所說的道庭說明說有資料不謀而合而我在先前有詢問過是不是5月27號民進黨有開這樣的會議的時候他只說尊重司法調查並不願意回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2356.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2383.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那我們看下一張喔那我們就發現說所謂的這個市方電訊呢等一下會讓大家有回答的時間市方電訊的董事長叫做吳彥宏在2016年開始的時候中華電信就被很多的新聞媒體報導整個我們的中華電信的子公司裡面有不少的酬庸背景最為人知的應該是賴靜林董事長可是呢我們今天談的是市方電訊的董事長吳彥宏 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2386.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2405.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那他是賴清德總統的親信、媒體的報導以及新潮流洪啟昌的親信那他的資歷呢都是一直跟著這一些新潮流的一些相關政治人物來走的包含是什麼呢他是在這個海基會的時候洪啟昌也是海基會的這個董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2406.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2426.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們從他的捐款政治獻金記錄裏面也可以看得出來他跟民進黨的關係他們這家公司也是中華電信的子公司很快速的時間裏面就翻倍成長了我們來看一下當時甚至連他們在做新的機房的時候蔡英文總統都有去兼採 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2426.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2441.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那他呢好我們看到的事情是包含董事長是過去陰森科技的負責人吳彥宏以及他的副總經理裡面有曾經擔任過刑事警察局偵查隊大隊長的再來呢他們跟政府的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2441.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2466.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
包含前瞻基礎建設的總金額呢這個不是釋放電訊的總金額是我們看到前瞻基礎建設的總金額一共累計38.27億好那我們就詢問了一下中華電信等一下給中華電信回答的時間那中華電信請問你們是不是曾經說過不會販售任何的資料給政治人物或政黨麻煩回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2468.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2494.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
報告委員是是對不對那請問你們的子公司或合作企業那能夠取得中華電信數據的也一樣不會販售相關的資料給包含是政治人物跟政黨嗎報告委員子公司本身就是一個獨立的法案公司但是它如果是你們的伺服器廠商接受了中華電信相關的訊息我們的個資傳到了這個子公司裡面也可以販售嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2498.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2522.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
會接觸嗎?你們有掌握嗎?有,我們對相關人員對這些資料的那個取得跟相關人員能夠尤其是系統人員都有一定的管理有一定的管理嗎?所以如果今天我們中華電信的資料傳到了伺服器裡面那這些伺服器裡面的資料子公司可以提供或者販售給政治人物或政黨嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2525.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2526.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
中華電信的關係企業裡面有哪一些有電信機房或是雲端機房而且跟我們國內的電信業者合作相關的公司名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2550.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2574.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
結果得到的答案只有一家你們跟釋方電訊主要的合作業務是寬頻電路以及IDC機房等基礎設施的租賃請問是不是有這件事?是是有這件事情嗎?來我們看一下你們子公司是怎麼樣跟民進黨來做合作的來下一張釋方電訊他跟蔡英文蔡總統從民國105年開始109年都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2579.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2595.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我這邊字比較小但是你們的板子上應該可以看到市方電訊跟蔡英文總統在選舉期間他的支出是什麼他們的合作關係是什麼我念支出用途給大家聽喔數據費用數據分析分析數據費輿情分析費用輿情監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2600.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2615.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以我想問一下中華電信喔當我們合作的子公司我們的機房我們的伺服器裡面的內容是可以出售給特定的政治人物來做數據分析、輿情分析、輿情監測的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2619.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2631.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
報告委員我想釋芳它本身是獨立的公司所以它相關的運作還是要依據法規要依據法規但是你們的資料如果到了釋芳 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2632.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2650.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你們有合作關係吧?你們有沒有合作關係?有那你們的合作關係是什麼?如同委員的資料主要是在IDC這方面IDC是什麼?可不可以跟大家介紹一下?有些人可能不知道它就是資料中心資料中心?所以中華電信會把資料儲存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2651.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2673.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
市方電訊並不是說中華電信的資料 這個是客戶本身客戶本身 客戶的資料會被儲存在市方電訊的IDC主機基方所以市方電訊的IDC主機裡面會有民眾的資料 有還是沒有這可能要稍微分離一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2675.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2700.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
IDC客戶本身放在IDC機房裡面伺服器的資料當然就是會在他所在的機房委員所稱的民眾資料可能要看業務業的部分我就問你們嘛那是你們的子公司嘛中華電信有沒有資料是儲存在IDC機房裡面民眾的資料有沒有被儲存在市方電信的IDC機房裡面嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2701.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2723.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
沒有那你說IDC的合作是在哪裡合作的?IDC的業務可能有些企業他本身有我只問中華電信而已你們自己的回覆告訴我說你們跟他有合作我們回到上一頁你們說你們跟釋放電訊主要的業務是寬頻電路跟IDC機房基礎設施租用租賃但是我講到現在你說不清楚你們的合作細節是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2725.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2751.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
電路的部分就是接取IDC機房的部分是客戶他要發出他主機這個客戶的部分的中華電信不就是客戶嗎中華電信不是市方IDC機房的客戶我們是跟市方合作在IDC租賃的部分按照客戶的需求跟他對這個接取電路的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2752.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2780.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那可能是使用我們中華電信本身的IDC機房也可能是由四方的IDC機房來提供服務提供什麼服務一樣是就是主機的這個主機的什麼所以你剛剛其實也談到了嘛就是說我們會好我們看下一張齁在這個電信幫的部分其實先前喔就已經有人指出來一件事情就是說呢這是媒體人張宇軒的臉書那我們把它提出來齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2781.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2800.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他當時就講了2019年李承偉因為個人私德爭議被轉調2021年李承偉還是可以跟他的親信吳彥宏共同見面當時的賴副總統然後當時就提到了所謂的疫調系統跟這次王逸川比對的相關風暴是有關聯性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2801.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2825.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
後續還有一份所謂的陳宗彥辦理的簽名記錄：裏面寫著陳宗彥、李懷仁、郭水義、簡宏偉相關的高層我相信以他這樣子的陳述來說吳彥宏仍然是在現場的那我再問一個問題市方電訊他除了跟中華電信有機房合作而且是唯一的電信機房合作之外他還跟中國大陸跟香港都有合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2826.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2835.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
然後呢他上面也寫得很清楚他提供所謂中國大陸的優質服務我想請問一下國安局長像這樣子的情況會不會有所謂的資安跟國安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2836.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2865.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
對我想各個電信公司他有相關的一個資訊假如說有外流的話我想都要依照國家的法律來處理那重點就在於說他們違反法律的一些要件有沒有違反法律的要件嗎可是問題是今天中華電信講不清楚啊中華電信告訴我們說他們不會販售資料不會販售資料也不會有輿情分析給政治人物跟這個特定政黨可是他們的子公司有啊我們可以上市方電訊的網站上去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2865.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2888.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
他們沒有任何一個業務叫做數據費用、數據分析、輿情分析都沒有他們不是做這個的嘛他們是做IDC機房的嘛就像剛才我們的這個中華電信所說的那樣那為什麼中華電信的子公司會在選舉期間會有這樣子的一個相關的合作關聯性中華電信有沒有打算要對釋放電訊進行調查了解他們是否有 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2895.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2913.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
撈個資的問題免費撈個資然後提供給民進黨這樣的問題你們有沒有要去了解?那個四方電信是集團裡面的這個子公司齁那委員所詢的事項我們會去做了解好那最後不好意思請一下法務部喔那個再麻煩給我30秒問一下法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2916.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2942.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
法務部這邊我想要問的是說我們能不能夠要申請要求要保全證據避免相關人士滅證那我這邊也會再向檢察官提出書面的要求是我想這個提出保全證據的請求原則上應該是要以被害人提出告訴等等我們每一個人都可能是被害人那如果告發的話那我想這個相關的假單位會本於他的職責判斷來做處理好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2948.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2951.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
請國安局局長請國安局蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2979.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3001.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
好 謝謝主席 蔡委員早早 局長 不知道有沒有印象在兩三年前COVID-19的時候在2020年的時候那金門有幾個來自中國的男子那用無動力的橡皮艇然後說到金門說要投奔自由 有沒有聽過這樣的話有還記得嘛 對不對那也不只一件喔 我記得是兩三件嘛對 這 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3003.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3032.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那這樣的情報當初有沒有掌握到說這些人的背景是什麼?他們的動機是什麼?他們想要達成什麼樣的目的?對,大概這兩年我想昨天海巡署也對外有說明了從去年到現在這一類中方的偷渡案件大概有十幾件那這些案件當中也都有針對當事人來進行一些偵訊的一個動作然後偵訊完之後再移送檢方來進行調查看有沒有違反我們的入出境管理法以及相關的國安法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3034.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3061.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
針對這個問題我不是要問有沒有違反什麼樣的法規我現在是以您是國安局局長的這個身份我想知道這些人的身份背景是什麼我想從北韓然後投誠到南韓的時候他們的這些情報部門還是一些統一部的部門等等全部都要去查核他們的動機不是只是單一性的來去採用他們是要投奔自由這樣的話語那我想請教在金門的時候他們的背景有做查核嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3063.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3084.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
他們當然在接受證訊的過程當中都會有一套的說辭說明自己的身份還有到我們台灣來的主要的動機是什麼那就我們管局來講我們當然會比對他們的相關的一個說辭那歸類出大概有些比較要注意的樣態跟委員做個說明第二部分是他們大概都會提到投奔自由這樣的一個想法第一個共通性 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3085.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3098.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那第二個也大概都會去勾勒他怎麼樣來透過這些水上的載具到我們的外離島或是到我們的本島因為去年到現在有兩件事到我們本島來一個是在通宵外海一個是前兩天淡水的碼頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3100.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3125.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以我們會去大概勾勒一下他們的相關的數位足跡因為這些很多都有攜帶他們的手機那我們會來了解一下他們的手機的內容還有相關的數位足跡跟他所公訴的證詞一不一樣那可能手機裡面也會有相關的照片那也可以再來核對一下跟他的陳述內容有沒有一些違反的事實整體來講會發現到他們的一些相關的資訊很多都跟他們的陳述的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3126.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3147.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以我們就不禁要懷疑的這是不是背後有一個比較有組織的有系統的規劃來操作這些所謂的這種透過水上載具來到我們外離島或本島的這個周邊的水域或碼頭來靠近我們的國境所以這大概是我們從過去的樣態所規劃出來一些比較值得可疑的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3148.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3171.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
謝謝局長因為我沒有直接問昨天的事情因為我認為大概只有24到48小時大概也沒有什麼樣最新的內容可能還要一段時間才可以梳理出來但是我要強調從金門的案件我們大概要去查那當他們決定做這些事情的時候包含他們的說法全面都一致喔三年前跟三年後這些人的講法都是一致的那剛才你剛剛說提到他的數位足跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3171.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3198.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
通常如果是你說特務也好情報人員要特別要做這件事情的時候誰會把手機放在身上所以他們一定是攜帶他們想要被監測的數位足跡的這些東西攜帶在身上讓我們去反查來去做查核嘛但是台灣是民主自由的社會在法治的社會上面我們有什麼證據就只能辦到哪裡我們不能說你就是間諜所以說這是利用我們的民主的漏洞利用我們制度的漏洞來要去探路那我覺得這些都是我們必須要先前防範的特別是 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3199.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3219.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
如果這些人有軍方的背景或者是安全的背景,不知道有沒有過去有過這樣的案例?這個是比較特別,最近淡水這個案例是大概歷來第一次他自己承認他具有軍方的背景那也引起我們的關注,所以也正在查和了解一下他在對岸的真實的身份以及過去的活動的動態 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3221.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3236.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
像這樣子的樣態已經不是第一次了從離島直接進入到本島那從到台灣到離我們的首都數位區已經是非常接近的地方那有沒有什麼相關的情資研判怎麼樣要提供給其他的部會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3237.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3254.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
對,因為案子本身已經由檢方立案在偵辦了那我們都尊重檢方調查的過程跟結果那假如說檢方有需要相關一些國安的單位的評估的意見的話我們很樂意來提供給檢方我是希望可以主動提供你們評估的案件因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3255.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3268.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
政府的部門是要跨部會整合的前幾天上禮拜五我們去參加海委會的這個海事相關的這個研討會的時候我們也接到一些媒體的採訪說我們是國防外交委員會這是內政的為什麼我們要一起去聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3270.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3294.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
其實很簡單嘛這今天的這個案例齁前幾天的案例在淡水的案例就很清楚的告訴我們說這個東西不是只有一個部會如果一個部會守不住的話那其他部會至少還去協調來協助嘛那當每一個部會不要本位主義的時候不管是在12海裡還是在6海裡的時候就能夠與以來去截獲不會等到到淡水河口才會有動作所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3295.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3322.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我還是要呼籲各個部門不要說這個是屬於A單位這是屬於B單位內政部、國防部那一有問題趕快就是要有一個彙整的機制管道才可以快速反應是,跟委員報告說明一下第一個部分當然是在法律上的處理那因為檢方已經在偵辦這部分我們尊重那第二部分是在行政系統的一個盤點相關的問題以及有沒有哪些缺失未來要精進的 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3322.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3349.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以國安會有召開跨部會會議來進行協調那也來了解跟釐清整個過程當中到底有哪些邊防國境安全的漏洞那也要求各單位要來積極的策辦跟精進好謝謝因為我還是在強調這是最基礎最簡單最低科技但最有效的在低科技最簡單最基礎的東西我們沒有做好的話不用講高科技不用講什麼AI防範你最簡單的事情先把它處理完那才有辦法去做應對那當然啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3352.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3380.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們今天看到就是相關的包含海委會有說這個蔡委首是說是有可能是懷疑是因為歸港漁船所以就是大意了沒有去做處置那除了漁船之外我們現在很擔心包含空中的這樣子的能量到時候如果是以像是客機的方式等等就層出不窮我覺得相關的資訊是不是可以請這個國安單位來彙整一個給我們各個不同的部門有一個guideline一個指引我必須強調就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3382.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3405.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們不能夠依賴個人而是要依賴制度那當然如果一個個人他們在重要的時刻做出很英勇的決定那當然是很好的但是如果只是依照這樣子的話那隨時都是要碰運氣如果沒有制度上面的查核比方說像這一次就有應該請國安局也把過去其他國家的一些做法來提供給這個相關的部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3406.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3406.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
最後局長我來想講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3432.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3452.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這個機密的這個落實的分級我必須要強調說最近國防部長顧部長他不斷的提到說機密層級那涉及機密層級的狀況去做的背景查核是依照他的職務跟他接觸的敏感的資料不是以他的職位來去做確定那我是希望說這不是只能只於國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3453.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3467.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那我是希望說未來包含其他的部門包括國安局或者其他的情報機構之外外交部甚至是經貿相關的重要的經貿談判的辦事處都必須要有相關的機制這部分是不是可以請您研擬一下二號 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3468.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3489.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
因為這部分依照國家機保法的一個規定它本來就有絕對機密及機密跟機密的核定至於密等的話就由行政院的相關文書處理的作業規範來進行市長我為什麼講這件事情是因為過去在國安會服務的時候我看到什麼東西都是密或者是機密或者是越來越這跟美國的狀況其實是很類似的他們把密等 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3491.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3517.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這也是在他們內部有很多的討論的所以我們是希望說在我們的資源我們不像美國一樣是超級大國我們沒有無限的資源去使用我們必須要針對需要保密的東西保密針對不需要保密的東西你也不必來去增加資料的這個不可親近性那對過來我們的問證也好或者是做研究做分析來講都是一個阻礙所以要確實的確保密等的這種核對是有它的幫助的那另外一個部分就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3519.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3533.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
關於我們的機密程度還有我們的可 包含國會議員嘛國會議員就是人民所選出來的那當然就是另外一回事但是再包含幕僚長我們的國會助理包含各個你們接觸的這些單位理論上是要有相關的安全查核的等級 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3533.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3556.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那當然不是我們是不是在鼓吹說每一個人都要得到這樣的安全合格其實在跟國會議員的這些幕僚在討論的時候很多他們的幕僚早是不希望有這樣的安全合格對他們來講是心理壓力啊他們必須要接觸到這些密等他們必須要確保說他們不會因此而洩密對他們來講也是很大的壓力不是每一個人都想要但是這是必須要去操作必須要去務實的去做這個做法的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3557.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3580.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我們看到說你說泄密也好我實在很不希望說把每一個人都當成是泄密的對象但是如果你有一個完成的這個安全的合格包含國防的承包商等等都應該有這樣的做法不然就會讓明明不應該要負泄密責任的人負責真正應該要負泄密責任的人你卻追究不到因為你的密等你的揭密的這個層級沒有去做務實的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3582.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3604.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個希望局長能夠參考各國的案例做一個完整的規劃不要關門自己造車重新發明如此對這非常重要謝謝委員提醒這個真的很重要因為我還是在強調因為密等每次密到最後全部都是機密那全部都是機密的時候無所不密那就是每一個都要保護每一個保護就是沒有再把資源放在對的上面對不對對了解委員的觀點也同意謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3609.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3614.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
好 謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台諮詢主席有請國安局局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3633.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3633.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
中華電信副總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3661.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3666.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
請副主委還有中華電信林副總想請教各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3671.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3691.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們一直在強調提升國家通訊網路的韌性能力目前是由中華電信跟歐洲的通訊衛星子公司OneWeb簽署了我們很樂見在2024年那麼低軌衛星訊號可以覆蓋全台那我們從公開的情資顯示它是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3692.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3692.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
陳平時級通訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3720.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3720.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3742.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3757.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那這個部分的話確實是一個重點就是在某一種disaster的狀況下面它的系統容量會不會不足或者它的coverage會不足那這個部分的話因為中華電信是one wave的台灣的代理那請中華電信這邊來說明好謝謝中華電信 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3760.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3783.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
報告委員有關那個跟web那個簽署的這一個部分我想我們對服務的要求跟相關合約裡面對這些都會有相關的要求跟規範那回到整體通訊的那個安排的部分我們在整體的這個陸海空發各方面的solution也都自己在尋求那能夠提高我們整個的網路韌性,以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3784.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3784.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3799.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3821.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
謝謝委員的指導,我們再回去檢視這個部分是什麼樣的一個要求,謝謝我們這次速發部做獨島,中華電信做協作應變或暫時應用新興科技,強化通訊網路這個韌性的計畫我們是希望確保指揮體系在戰爭或是大規模災害的時候能夠支援政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3822.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3823.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
中共對台灣可能會做出什麼手法? |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3846.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3861.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為從400公里甚至200公里到2000公里大概隨時都有30到50枚帝國衛星通過因為我們的上空的空間有限那麼OneWeb衛星通過的安全餘力希望能夠掌握我把後面的限制因素向大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3863.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3887.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
經過評估,發射干擾頻率是可以干擾OneWeb的終端設施正常運作。我們面對的挑戰是暫時可能有受阻的現實。未來中共的低軌衛星會有變軌的能力,它的通知戰術靈活多變,我們在本島周遭可能會有變成透明化,你會面對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3888.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3915.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
另外就是6G的時代手機直通低軌衛星中共運用覆蓋福建沿海地區向國際通訊組織申請的涵蓋範圍可能會排擠到我們在台灣地區OneWeb的軌道這個東西將來就沒有辦法有效的運用低軌衛星這個我是提醒NCC跟中華電信特別要注意這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3916.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3922.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
指揮官,我特別談到未來無人的系統,無人機無人艇,這是一個趨勢,但是有效的運用還是在通訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3934.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3953.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以涵蓋的範圍、電池頻譜這個保密措施我想在國軍來講自通電軍要承擔很大的責任也要相助、協助各個軍種在這個領域繼續強化尤其是整合感測器、平台跟決策流程那我們訊息的優勢利用科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3954.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3972.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
經準快速收集、篩選、分析跟傳播另外,修復的能力復原的能量也是要儘快所以國防部提出寬域的軍用頻道需求可能透過自通電軍跟NCC跟中華電信尤其是未來的UAV、無人機它的通訊頻道必須先確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3974.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4003.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
而不是這些載台先交給你國軍的你另外再申請頻道那那個時候在暫時有效運用上就比較難以發揮它的效益了那我最後用這張圖來向大家說明這個是中共的北斗衛星那實際上它是軍用、民用甚至中國大陸所有的公務船舶海上交通甚至漁船都有北斗那這個另外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4004.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4017.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
海事衛星的通訊那是另外一個品勢現在比較困擾的是低軌衛星各位看看這張圖低軌衛星我們把最近低軌衛星顯示整個涵蓋全球了 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4020.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4039.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
中國大陸是高度重視太空產業它把視為中國的綜合國力之一那麼一家上海的這個叫藍劍鴻這個鴻琴科技公司最近向國際電信聯盟ITU提出了一個重磅的計劃在未來要發射1萬顆 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4041.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4069.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這個紅湖三號它是一個巨型的星座衛星系統那將來它的目的是超越這個STARLINK那事實上在2021年大陸已經批准了一個叫做國網12992顆衛星另外G60星鏈12000個衛星這都在持續施放那這些東西為什麼在我們這個有限的低軌衛星的空間會產生排擠所以這個是要我們要特別注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4070.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4096.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那有效的頻寬運用跟安全措施以及跟國軍有效掌握暫時他的無人機能不能有效運用甚至可以用低軌衛星不只是低軌向中軌做 relay或是低軌之間用雷射 relay這個都是未來我們面對的挑戰那這個部分我們特別請資通電軍還有國安局在保密的部分提供最大的協助請局長做一點回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4097.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4125.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
謝謝蔡委員的關切那就怎麼樣來強化我們國家的通訊的韌性跟安全呢事實上是有跨部會的機制在進行規劃或協調那我們的中低軌衛星的發展也不是只有英國這一家OneWeb還有其他的國際廠商都有在做相關的一個合作計畫的評估那對於中共確實正如委員所提到的這幾年它不斷的跟ITU申請它的低軌衛星計畫我前一陣子才算過大概申請了 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4127.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4154.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
發射大概有4萬顆左右低軌衛星但它的一個目前來講它的能量還在起步的階段那它當然希望能夠像美國的那個STARLINK可以達到4、5千顆以上那它現在有4、5萬顆的規劃有很大的目的是在於展現它的覺醒那二來也是有點在佔用相關的低軌衛星的可能的一個位置讓各國假如還要再發射低軌衛星的話又跟中共來進行磋商所以它是有點策略上的運用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4157.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4181.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
根據了解就是一顆低軌衛星大概約有2000個終端用戶那如果他能夠把這個地區整個把它飽和化那我們可以使用的這個空間就是軌道通過的時間單位同時有幾顆衛星會受到排擠那這個我們努力的空間不管服務8號服務9號那另外最後還提醒注意中華電信特別一個重要的就是海嵐 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4182.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4182.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4210.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4213.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
謝謝 接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請中華電信請中華電信 林副總 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4236.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4245.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
副總長我們今天的題目當然是叫做我們的國家如何來運用民間的設備來收集相關的國安資訊不過剛剛前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑說這個有個叫釋方電信的現在是不是意圖不軌的來搜集國家的情報或者是搜集人民的個資我先請問一下釋方電信跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係除了是子公司之外業務上面有往來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4266.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4294.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
開麥克風不要緊張業務上面是什麼樣的關聯跟委員報告業務上就是我們在IDC租賃上那個在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的這個IDC租賃業務還有那個電路的出租業務好所以說在業務上是合作關係還是市方跟中華電信來承租或是中華電信來跟市方承租 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4300.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4312.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
中華電信也有自己的IDC機房,但是客戶的需求可能會有不同,所以我們是集團公司依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4313.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4327.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
言下之意就是一種策略聯盟好那我就明確的說中華電信有沒有資料放在市方電信裡面就是中華電信的客戶資料有存在市方的所謂的IDC裡面嗎?包委沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4330.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4358.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
如果沒有的話剛剛的委員質詢說有沒有可能洩漏情資的時候你不是應該要明確的說出來嗎要把這樣的關係講清楚否則這種連連看沒有證據馬上就變成什麼傳出去那就好像變成是中華電信跟釋放電信一起來情搜或是收羅民間的資訊喔所以我再問一次中華電信的客戶資料有存在釋放電信的IDC裡頭嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4359.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4365.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
主席有請國安局警察局長我想其實今天對於民眾來說最重要的當然還是安全的維護的部分其實我想要救教局長的部分就是其實是不是利用這個端午節假期中共所發動的灰色清老 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4386.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4400.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
其實在持續當中本席想要把這個快艇的事件往前推其實在6月8號的時候中國的無人機其實到金門去發送傳單甚至於在抖音上面有直播主直接就說他們要直接來侵擾金門 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4404.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4425.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這從6月8號到6月9號兩個事件國安局怎麼看?國安局認為這事件當中有關聯性嗎?又或者是其實這個就是中國的灰色衝突的一個持續的上升其實是有步驟有計劃性的而國安局這裡有掌握一定的情資嗎?好這大概分兩個部分一個是整體中共對台灣的灰色地道 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4425.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4427.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作：再加上偶爾包括這一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4455.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4455.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
中華電信股份 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4470.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4489.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
整體的態勢判斷來講我們認為這確實不能排除是中共有系統有計劃的灰色地帶洗腦的活動這是第一部分那第二部分是針對個案的部分那針對個案的部分管局這邊我們會統合我們各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來收集相關不同的個案那以淡水這個個案來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4490.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4495.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
從局長的回答就知道說這一切其實都在掌握之中但重點就在於在國安局的掌握之中訊息有沒有橫向的連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署或等等主席不好意思我要請海巡署 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4520.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4521.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
前台宣 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4534.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4558.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
8年來現在已經從1.6萬變成現在到1.8萬言下之意就是中國用非法船隻越界的方式的灰色衝突是越來越高喔那麼對於海巡來講跟國安局之間你們在國安相關的單位或者是巡護海防的部分感受到的是非法中國的非法船隻不斷的就是親門套戶的狀況底下那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4561.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4572.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
對於這一次直接有所謂的解放軍背景的人直接滑著小艇進入淡水河口這樣的過程當中難道說國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎?報告委員有關這部分的話海巡署20小時全天候在待命在監偵海面目標那這部分我們跟國安局等等相關情報單位都平時都保持密切的聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4588.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4608.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那麼怎麼會發現這個從發現到這個確定逮捕而且是發生了衝突之後中間的這個空白的50分鐘這到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀態不能說是因為這個我們的第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來所以不熟悉我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4609.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4626.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
而是面對中國不斷的提升所謂灰色地帶的非法傳資直接越界進入家門這樣的狀況難道說我們沒有一個好的判斷的方式嗎?一定得要發生衝突或者是臨近的漁船或是我們本國的漁船來通報之後才會了解狀況嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4630.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4644.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
該委員報告,這個案子我們事後來檢討評估在海軍的徵收系統完全是正常,絕對沒有漏接我們在陸海裡就發現那因為當時海面上武器燒船隻我們第一線的雷達操作員 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4646.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4664.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
誤判為是進港的正常傳播他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控在11點10分靠馬頭之後就馬上逮捕當然這個案子具有高風險所以我們不僅加強教育訓練我們也引進各式各樣的徵收設備來用科技撫琴 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4664.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4685.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
好,所以局長,我想這個部分我想要了解的是,國安局回答得非常好,那麼對於整體的狀況也有掌握,但是橫向的連結跟聯繫的時候,當你們看到這樣的個案,未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢?應該的,應該的,因為這部分我剛剛也跟陳冠廷委員有說明過, |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4686.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4711.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
國安會也有召開跨部會議在檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪一些可以測近的作為就這個個案來講像剛剛海巡署所說明的因為他的船身不大大概只有7公尺的小船那這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在6海里外就發現這個相關的漲收程度已經算是相當相當不錯當然船隻的噸位更大可以在更遠的水域就預先來警覺到他 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4711.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4714.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
本席希望的是橫向的聯繫當中如果以國安局為首的話要把它整體的組織起來因為就像我提到它其實不是一個6月9號的個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4735.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4755.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
請證詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4756.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4775.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
好,兩位長位先請回本席稍微整理了一下這近10年來中國偷渡的人數那麼當然呢現在都是比較是個位數字但是是不是因為我們的法規太輕了以入出境管理局的第74條可以懲處5年以下有期徒刑那一顆罰金50萬但是如果回到判例來看我就舉三個判例從2023年的這個中國盛信男子 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4786.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4813.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
有有到小金門一顆罰金可以一顆罰金但判4個月12萬台幣大概呢人民幣大概就2萬多不到3萬如果到2021年那麼這個大陸中國的福建省航行11小時到台灣海峽的話是判刑2個月一顆罰金才6萬那到2019年的富商之子偷渡來台灣根本就是不起訴直接遣返 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4814.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4840.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
本席指示要問就法務部來看這個會不會是讓中國如果要灰色侵擾這個代價很低阿是跟委員報告事實上我有稍微了解一下我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候首先剛剛委員所關於追尋的是不是有橫向聯繫那地檢署跟調查局事實上跟國安都有相關的聯繫那剛剛在討論那個案子的我們的這個事檢國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4842.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4864.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那麼我想當然會試相關案件的情節有不一樣的處置那麼事實上歷年來這個偷渡案件其實比委員所這個書面上的數字還多相關的案件數但是呢並非全部都用不起訴事實上包含檢疫判決處刑的起訴案件跟用一般通常程序來起訴案件加總 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4864.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4867.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
好,除了修改法規之外其實本席把這樣的法條找出來的原因是說他其實是可以一顆罰金然後50萬以下但是你看所判出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4887.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4905.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
因為刑期很低所以說金額也就相對偏低本席認為是不是要修法可以再考慮但是我認為在判刑上面如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖要侵擾台灣的安危的話其實在判刑上面應該要予以來加重這個是本席認為的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4906.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4907.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4941.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4963.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
有請海巡署 謝副署長請海巡署 謝副署長現在敏感的地方就是因為淡水的一個這個衝到我們這個淡水這個地方的一些那個前那個什麼停建那我想請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4964.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4991.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
今天早上今天早上我們在發現我們新竹建在夏威夷發現在那個地方停泊那它進行什麼樣的一個任務第二個台灣和美國現在的一個海型的議題上進行什麼樣的一個合作什麼樣的一個合作你來回答一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4992.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5016.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
報告委員,新竹艦正在執行今年度的第一航側的太平洋遠洋公海巡護任務這是例行的任務現在我們4000噸的新竹艦,它續航能力更遠而且它有裝備醫療專業人員跟設備所以我們指定調派它來執行中西太平洋遠洋巡護任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5018.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5042.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
好,那海巡有任務的任何的一個觀摩或是參加什麼樣的一個角色?他扮演的是什麼樣的一個角色?有關於相關的細節的話,除了公海巡務的話我們這邊可以報告以外那有關相關的細節的話就不方便在對外公開報告我們是會後跟委員報告好,那你細節的部分再跟我報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5043.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5053.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那另外是有關於NCC如何確認的三大電信的這個部分我要請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5055.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5077.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那最近民進黨這個政治會的執行長王一川在5月27號的時候在三立政論節目上表示其使用的手機、信號、定位分析、清雕行動及近期成抗的活動引發政府或執政黨的監控人民的一個餘力 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5080.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5087.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
NCC在5月30號發函國內三大電信啟動調查結果NCC在5月31號調查以書面的報告調查結果那認為就是這個調查結果的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5101.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5127.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
是經確認三大電信部層提供清了行動群眾任何這個資訊給其他單位業者也並無任何私人的一個企業政府機關或特定的黨籍人士接洽或請求相關的人流資訊那你來回答一下這個餘力非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5129.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5155.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
跟委員報告其實我們昨天還在找了那個三大電信公司來除了要求他們的個資跟資安都要符合那個ISO的規定之外另外我們也要求電信業者要盡快的導入那個氣勢別化的認證的標準所以說我們持續在做要優先請電信業者一定要去導入氣勢別化 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5157.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5175.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
當初你們在書面報告的時候在5月30號只有區區一天的時間你就有一個結論的一個書面報告那這個是一個非常荒唐而且也是一個唐突的一個決定說我們沒有這個沒有任何的一個問題所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5177.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5191.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這樣的你們的回答是欺騙民眾還是欺騙國人報委員其實我們是真的有請三大電信業者到會裡面來做行政調查我們不只問了說他有沒有我現在問題癥結點在哪裡就是5月30號 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5196.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5212.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那就一天的時間裡面你5月31號就是一個書面的這個做出一個結論這樣會不會覺得你們這個報告根本就是在富航王一川 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5214.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5241.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
報委員 這個部分我們持續在調查我們只是把5月30號當天我們也請三大電信業者到會來陳述他們陳述的意見表達在我們6月3號在大宴交通委員會的報告上面那我們會持續在精進也要求電信事業要去做好個資、資安還有那個去識別化的整個標準的作業流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5242.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5254.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
因為你們已經受到國人的質疑NCC到底調查結果有沒有外露這一些各自的問題所以你們現在才陸陸續續在調查那為什麼你們當時5月30號的時候你們就應該要審慎調查之後再來提出書面的結論報告不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5269.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5290.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
委員的指導意見我們會持續的來精進那我們會持續要求電信事業來加強各自治安還有氣勢變化的認證本席這邊特別提醒NCC應該要調查電信業者是否有違反規定甚至違反的情勢存在這樣的調查除了書面調查外應該包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5292.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5313.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
資料、調閱和更多複雜的調查方式本席無法相信除了NCC果真的有認證調查可以短短一天內就得到答案NCC如果只是發函或者是業者說明然後把業者的回覆當初調查結果根本就是應付了事 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5314.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5341.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
報言我們在那個有一個結議喔在立法院有一個結議交通委員會有一個結議在7月15號之前我們要去調查清楚而我們會邀請寫者專家或第三方的那個公正的驗證單位去了解去調查了解說我希望你們這一些調查結果結論無論如何都給每一位我們這個本委會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5343.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5349.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這個立法委員好不好好是好那有請我們呃國安局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5357.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5384.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好 謝謝主席 委員好好 局長好那有關於我們的第五縱隊的狀況我想請教一下這個所謂的第五縱隊是指潛伏在內部進行破壞以敵方裡應外合不擇手段意圖顛覆破壞國家團結的團體那你知不知道所謂的第五縱隊現在目前有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5384.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5385.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
中華電信股份有限公司列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5415.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5416.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
臺灣內部的共鐵活動似乎越來越猖獗 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5431.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5446.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
在台第5縱隊的是越來越多在台絕對不只是5000人以上那暫時高風險族群高達10萬人更不一定是中國人台灣人也可以被中共威脅或其 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5447.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5466.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
做其他事情政府應該要進行管控這些高風險的所謂的族群裡面就包含立委、學者、公廟、幫派、人士請問一下高風險的族群是屬於潛在的第五縱隊嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5467.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5485.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
對,我剛剛跟委員說明的是第五縱隊它不是一個法律的概念那可能是在學術或政策討論上所使用的用語但是就國安單位來講我們在處理共諜案必須要依照法律的基礎跟要件來辦理這是第一點澄清跟說明那有沒有存在在十年前有沒有存在這個第五縱隊對 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5486.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5508.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那第二個部分是對於各界包括立法委員在關切相關的共諜活動以及在境內的滲透活動我們都非常的感謝因為這可以喚醒國人相關的一個國安的一個知覺那我們有提到說10年前的有所謂的媒體提到第五縱隊的相關的數字我還原了一下當時的狀況當時的討論比較像是對岸的人士到台灣來 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5509.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5509.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5534.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5555.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
所以如果像這樣的一個狀況沒有具體的事證的情況之下影射他的賣台或是中共的同路人弄得人心惶惶社會不安所以我想破壞團結、破壞國家團結是不應該要把第五重點擴大為解釋以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5556.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5556.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5583.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5590.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩請國安局蔡局長、NCC副主委還有中華電信林副總好,謝謝主席,我很好好,謝謝局長,我想先請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5603.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5631.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
中華電信林副總剛剛有委員特別有詢問到就是釋芳他是中華電信的子公司那他收集的他的那個機房裡面存在的是什麼樣的資料你說他跟中華電信不一樣然後也也不會直接交付給他中華電信不會交付給他可是釋芳科技他釋芳電訊他可以收集到什麼樣的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5632.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5659.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
以他自己的子公司的這個機房裡面釋放公司的那個業務我大概也因為他是獨立公司不過如果就IDC他是中華電信的子公司但是他是獨立營運的公司那就IDC業務而言IDC業務基本上都是企業客戶在申請所以企業客戶把主機放在IDC機房裡面這些有沒有可能有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5660.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5678.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
基本上不會,因為這些資料應該都是屬於都是企業的嗎?他們只負責企業的嗎?會使用ITC基網服務的這個基本上都會是那個企業其他的呢?其他的可能性還有什麼?因為是你們的子公司啊,照理說你們非常清楚,除了企業以外還有什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5680.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5680.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
另外跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5695.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5711.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
企業在IDC裡面的營運它因為不管它是主機代管還是相關跟它公司營運的需要這些的資料基本上是還是屬於這一個企業所有並不屬於我們這個比如IDC居然出現可是在它的機房裡面會有嗎因為你的資料儲存就是在機房裡面嘛因為包括它是一些辦理活動的公司啊或者相關的企業他們有些相關的資料也會在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5723.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5737.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
因為包括我們所有的以前的企業比如說大家去健身房其實你裡面有很多的資料不管他的年齡、性別、住址、郵件的地址等等網址等等,其實他都會有是這樣子嘛,對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5739.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5758.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那我現在要特別詢問的是因為它既然是中華電信的子公司剛剛NCC說我們都會對於三大電信業者尤其在這個出事以後其實都有把他們找來那我想請問一下對於子公司或孫公司呢NCC回答一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5760.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5779.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
除了三大電信業者那對於像剛剛講的因為那個因為剛才那個徐小青委員徐委員有問到這個事情他四方也是電信事業我們也會來就具體的事證我們也會來瞭解目前有嗎目前我們會回去以後馬上會目前還沒有是嗎對我們先優先先對三大電信事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5780.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5800.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那今天有具體的一些資料之後我們回去會對四方電信委會去了解那另外補充那個四方電信它是一個IDC機房這個業務它是一個空間至於說那個企業客戶他本身的資料還是企業客戶所有你們在還沒有查查之前不需要多做說明因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5801.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5808.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
剛剛副主委你也提到你根本就還沒有跟他們討論過可是既然有這樣子包括剛剛講出來了子公司跟孫公司他是可以擁有客戶的這些相關的資料的所以其實他的管理除了這樣子回去以後你才要找他們嘛另外我們對於這些電信公司的機房NCC有沒有定期檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5824.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5840.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
按照那個那個個資法第22條NCC每年都要去檢查最近剛好去檢查剛好完成了一個行政檢查都沒有問題就個資跟資安的部分我們都有去檢查那當然是會有一些切施啦他對於個資的內用 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5842.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5859.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
內用或外用當然有一些行政缺失我們也要求他要改進所謂的行政缺失大概是什麼樣態沒關係沒有很多時間齁你把你們最近才去查查是針對三大電信公司還是包括所有其他的我們先針對的是三大 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5860.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5880.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
所以現在如果有可能發生因為如果三大電信公司它本身規模很大然後它受制於很多的法律規範所以其實他們反而有很多事情是不會做或不敢做或者會依據法律的一些相關的制約可是如果是子公司跟孫公司就不一樣囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5881.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5889.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以就這些部分有很多過去其實都很喜歡去衍生很多的問題局長也在這裡有很多像很多的事件發生的時候很喜歡做推敲或者去延伸可是這個已經事實存在而且在電視公然王逸川已經公然說出來那我們也擔心你像這樣子比如說在集會的活動場域裡面其實它有很多很明顯的就是有人民的政治傾向 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5909.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5917.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
今天如果政治傾向在我們國內你可以掌握可是當對岸如果掌握這樣子的政治傾向的時候對人民會有什麼樣的危害比如說你去香港比如你去澳門或者甚至去中國大陸會有什麼樣的影響這些都在在顯示我們國安的一個漏洞不是只有三大電信業者你的子公司孫公司要怎麼管理這個我們希望很快的去把它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5935.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5938.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
規模的電信事業我們會對於那個個資資安這一部分我們會來了解會去檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5957.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5979.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
除了了解跟檢查以外我們希望有具體的作為因為我們也擔心除了給王逸川以外因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做有可能啊不是只針對哪些特定人士而已他可以給王逸川他是不是也可以給中共的國安部甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5979.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5991.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
好兩位請回我們接下來再請教一下局長針對我們今天有所謂的一個就是我們看到有相關的那個人士從 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6002.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6024.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們的淡水河口其實直接上岸其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安的問題我們現在要說的這個破口最重要的是它是一個非常大的破口我們一直講說它是灰色地帶然後一直把它導向說我們還有哪一個設備不足我們還有需要買什麼東西包括像過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6025.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6051.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
一直發生的無人機侵擾的事件無人機我們不是沒有投錢我們已經超過十幾年以上我們投入了超過百億以上的預算其實在研發無人機在做無人機相關的不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等其實我們都有做可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆的無人機過來了我們一點辦法都沒有到現在還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6052.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6075.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
現在我們看到這一個他是一個很大的國安破口不是只是講講一個灰色地帶而已我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸110年台中也上來過一個啊那時候也是他自己報案他說他很冷大家不知道有沒有印象結果他去報案的時候也是我們的民眾才去報案的才把他帶走110年就發生了可是我們現在這一次發生的更嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6083.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6111.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
比如說他曾經是有解放軍的背景而且他是自己上岸自己找人打電話以海軍的任務來說其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功因為他所有的作戰參數他都已經取得了包括海象以當時的海象包括他的油料包括他的時間包括他的路程他可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6112.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6139.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經留過一遍他的資料已經刪除這針對一個任務來說他是已經完全成功這不是灰色地帶而且也不是懲處這樣這麼簡單上一次可以在台中這一次可以在我們台北下一次可能就在台南高雄這些作戰參數一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握我們的國安破口非常嚴重局長怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6141.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6166.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
對 這個個案委員剛剛所指導的我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步的去做一些澄清跟進一步的了解那就管局這邊來講我們會特別關注的是該員他有自述有解放軍的背景那這部分再結合到他這一次是用小艇來直接到我們的淡水漁港所以我們會了解到他的相關的動機以及相關的路徑委員剛剛所提到的是路徑的一個的查證 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6167.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6175.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那這部分我們會再配合到海巡署調查的結果來做後續的包括是涉及中國大陸他的身份跟動機的底情 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6176.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6197.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
局長因為我們在近期已經發生非常多的國安相關的事件我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決或者我們是等著其他的一個調查的結果或者等司法的判決結果其實這再再都沒有辦法改變我們現在發生的國安的這麼大的破口因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了可是這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6202.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6211.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
引發我們必須去非常重視的是其實他是自述說他有解放軍的背景我剛剛提到的他所有的作戰參數而且他是成功了到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船去接駁轉乘過來的還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來到現在還沒有辦法掌握如果他是大船接駁那還有一個問題就是我們的雷達怎麼了 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6228.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6246.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
因為我們不管是國防部或海巡其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關的雷達的監控可是如果是大船我們居然沒有注意到那今天如果是一個快艇雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚的掌握可是海巡6海里他都已經發現目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6248.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6263.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
依照經驗法則他判斷是漁船這個如果在海上有一個不明的目標這個在我們國軍來說他是一個黃色目標其實黃色目標是最危險的因為他不知道是底是有他不知道這到底是底艦還是有艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6266.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6281.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
他反而是更危險的可是我們居然沒有任何的作為我們不是只要買裝備而已你今天雷達他有可能因為霧太濃其實他也沒有辦法可以分析得很好今天如果說我們熱顯像 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6283.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6291.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
他有可能用其他的冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝其實都可以達到最重要的是人我們現在發生的就是這樣你一而再再而三不斷的發生還包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音或者可以跟對岸女子可以交往可是都沒有後續的結果這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情已經發生的我們到底做了什麼局長你簡要的說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6311.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6333.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我想這案子委員剛有提出一些重點第一個部分是在雷霆的掌握上有沒有問題那我剛有跟其他委員說明到能夠在六海里外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇已經算雷達的效能不錯第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辯證的機制那第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報那再來第四個是在岸際的相關的監測的設施第五個是委員所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6334.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6363.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
相關的人員的訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報我想大概這幾天在進行的一個檢討的作業有可以再進行的作為大概有以上這幾點局長這個精進的作為已經講很久了就我從上一次的無人機還有更早之前算110年臺中發生的事情那時候你不是局長可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多你如果說雷打都可以發現這樣子的一個有抓到雷打很不錯那更糟 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6364.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6384.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那如果你雷達都抓到了結果我們人還讓他這麼安安全全的然後完全像沒事的人一樣就可以上岸這樣更糟我們花了那麼多錢到底為了什麼這必須要跟國人一個交代我們到現在國安的破口剛剛我提到的那幾件其實都沒有一件可以有具體的作為或調查的結果這個部分請國安局可以做具體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6389.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6393.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
一個相關的了解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣應該提供給委員會或者我們相關的國人很清楚的知道好不好對我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同除了海巡以外我剛剛提到很多事喔這些部分我們希望都可以具體的把一些相關的進度把它讓國人很清楚的在國人面前把它攤開 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6412.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6412.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6442.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6444.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我們下面請瀋伯洋委員質詢謝謝主席有請局長跟中華電信好了謝謝局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6470.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6489.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
三位委員好局長好那今天剛好呢一開始因為今天的題目是在講說國安局對於這個國安資訊是怎麼定義那但是剛剛前面又發生很多事情所以也是剛剛其實局長講得很好就是說第五中對是一個不容易定性很模糊的概念在華人委員這個也是我一直主張的所以我不知道他剛剛在講什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6490.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6507.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
無論如何,我們對於風險高低這件事情真的是需要去認定剛好今天早上有一個新聞所以我想說先從這個新聞談起就是說這一次是在湖尾湖尾之前一直都會有說什麼到底武器發在那邊等等的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6509.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6524.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
在這一個選舉前一週的時候湖北的這個湖北鎮的民眾有收到一個簡訊說危險這個湖北會設導彈基地一旦爆炸方圓10公里將無人倖存然後不知道局長還記不記得這件事情有一陣子了 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6525.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6536.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
結果今天這個地檢署出了一份應該是不起訴這個不起訴裡面就有提到說發現這一個門號就是說發簡訊的這一個是由上海創蘭雲智 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6541.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6569.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
信息科技股份有限公司去向臺灣的一個叫互動公司承租所以看起來他是由這個承租之後再發簡訊所以我看起來因為他寫得不是很清楚但看起來是企業簡訊就是那一類的企業簡訊那所以這邊其實跟今天的題目非常有關係第一個就是顯然這是一個中國的公司結果在選舉權發送簡訊這是一個很大的問題第二個就是因為他發送的只有在 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6570.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6571.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為企業簡訊其實是合法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6597.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6604.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以像這種情形如果再度發生它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉這是破壞台灣的民主制度那以後我們應該要如何應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6605.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6634.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
好先就國安的角度跟委員說明跟報告那是不是再請中華電信局局長說明那就因為它發生的時間點確實是在選舉之前那我們注意到在中共現在的對台借選的手法當中它越來越細緻化所以以這個案例來講可以發現到它是針對湖北當地比較引起關注的基地設置的問題來操作相關的錯假訊息跟爭議訊息這大概是第一部分那第二部分就是變成是它傳播錯假訊息的主要的管道跟手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6634.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6660.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那有的當然是在網路上來進行那有的是透過手機簡訊來進行那因為這有涉及到部分的商業活動所以這部分我是不是容許我請中華電信來做說明好 謝謝跟委員報告我想中華電信提供的是通訊服務所以在網路上端到端這些通訊的服務的內容在中華電信公司這邊我們是無權也不會去做相關的這個檢視但是在比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6662.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6689.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
簡訊這個部分像近期我們配合那個跟主管機關依照主管機關指導去做相關的這個打詐上面賭詐的這個防治所以相關的事項如果再依法令需要中華電信配合的地方我想我們會完全協助來做處理這個事情但是還是要再重複的跟委員報告中華電信是通訊服務的公司我們對內容是不會去做檢視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6690.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6714.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個我知道就是說以中華電信的角度因為畢竟中華電信是以提供服務為主那它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情所以我覺得這件事情可能是需要後續的追蹤那剛好透過周冠廷議員今天把這一個PO出來我們才知道了這件事情那這是第一個所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情就是台灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6715.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6732.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那台灣人各自被搜集最主要搜集的對象是誰?監控是誰?我覺得我們常常會搞錯那整體討論的方向中國在搜集台灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2300萬的資料又或者健保相關的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6733.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6757.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那是中國駭客放上去的所以當這些資料能夠被取得或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候呢這個時候呢其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或在選舉的時候大家都可以做相關的一些利用所以呢第一件事情我現在想再問這個國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過因為剛好中華電信在這裡我想問一下就是說因為這邊呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6758.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6782.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
中華電信自己的廣告上面也有提到有人潮客群的分析平台的服務然後這邊都是中華電信寫的那遠傳這邊甚至有寫到說在個人化的第二行這邊可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID的unification那這個我覺得是很正常的他自己都有IMSI嘛他有SIM卡的資訊然後呢後面這邊不對這邊是放遠傳的所以我想問一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6783.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6786.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我跟委員報告就單一事件而言我想中華電信的回覆都是一樣的沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6801.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6830.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那就這個人流分析的部分也在跟委員報告我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用所以不會有涉及到各自的議題那下一個問題就是說在去識別化的狀況之下那有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較因為你已經去識別化了嘛那去識別化了之後呢比如說發生在AD跟發生在BD的人有沒有重疊這個按照你們本來的提供服務是有辦法去做比對的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6831.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6855.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個部分去識別的話基本上是輪廓資料所以輪廓資料的這個比對呢我想就會是輪廓上的比對不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對所以至少會有輪廓的比對嗎對輪廓的部分就像大家在做一般性的數據分析總會對自己辦的活動每一次的event去做一下性別年齡的這些比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6857.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6871.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
再來要特定到個人其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情但目前在我們就是說已在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這件事情的其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6872.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6899.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
任何的服務去購買資料比如說手遊又比如說任何的看天氣的APP這些都會取得很多手機上其他的資訊Android ID在某個版本之前甚至是可以被拿到的還有Device ID等等之類的那更不要講說早期還可以拿IMEI那現在沒有辦法拿到所以廣告公司會取得很多這樣的資料之後很多服務的公司取得這個資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6899.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6926.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以目前我在檯面上看到的能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司所以這邊其實反過來講是想要問這個局長這一邊就是說現在廣告公司掌握這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多就那種第三方的廣告公司所以它不一定是哪一個國家的它有可能是跨國的企業那這種第三方廣告公司我們當然國安單位不可能直接跟他們合作這是一定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6926.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6930.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
對於電信公司來講他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關的法規來進行那這部分我們當然也會假如有相關的情資的話也會跟相關的調查機關或檢查機關來進行舉發 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6953.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6954.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6983.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6999.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
但怕就是怕說有些廣告公司在台灣是完全沒有落地的那雖然這次有一些落地的條款但只是辦落地那如果說今天服務甚至是中國提供的因為台灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走我認為這個可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7000.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7016.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那這件事情到底要怎麼做我覺得這個可能是質詢二三十分鐘都講不完的地方所以我先打住在這裡那最後只是想問一下就是說符合今天的題目就是說就是目前來講我們國安資訊的這個定義啦我看到這個在報告上面也有提到就是通訊保安監察法第7條啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7017.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7038.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以也就是說譬如說像我們今天這個有一些社會運動啊什麼等等之類的民間企業當然像剛剛講的會做這些人流分析啊輪廓分析等等之類的那以國安局的角度來講呢最主要都是以這個通報法第7條為主那除了這個以外呢就是說譬如說好今天大家都在談這個青鳥行動以國安局的角度來講是什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7039.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7061.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
主要涉及到還是要依照法律的規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的通訊保障跟監察法授權底下所進行的通訊檢查那就這部分來講涉及到國安的資訊主要涉及到是有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外境內以及跨境的相關的活動資訊而這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7061.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7085.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
有涉及到這一部分的問題的話我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案的審核審核完之後再送請到高等法院來進行採核可以的話才會由本人也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊檢查書給司法警察機關所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹那看起來這個應該不是跟一個境外敵對勢力有關的一個案件對是並不是謝謝局長那謝謝主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7090.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7098.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
待會 待會 洪聖翰委員質詢完畢以後 休息5分鐘我們現在請王定宇召委上台質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩國安局長請國安局蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7121.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7135.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
主席王文豪局長這裡有一些是你們揭露的狀態然後我要聽聽看你的意見在中共去年反間諜法通過其實不只台灣各國都提出警告因為他的反間諜法的定義不明 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7136.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7137.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
以上這兩個狀況本席描述就你們掌握是否為證 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7164.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7181.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
是,這也是為什麼在去年7月中共對外公佈反間諜法之前,我們照歸院來做相關的專案報告,就現在提醒有這樣的區域要注意。那個情形不是只針對台灣嗎?我看美國、澳洲、加拿大、歐洲都有人,因為這樣子有的撤資,有的呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7182.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7207.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
美國是正式發出旅行警告甚至於警告商務旅客去中國的可能風險那下個月今年7月開始中國根據保守國家秘密法又多丟出兩個國家他們的國家安全措施就是他懷疑任何人你就要把手機交出來通訊器材交出來密碼交出來否則就先抓再講這也為真嘛所以7月份之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7208.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7227.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
也許有人會說99.9的人不會被影響也許有人會說這個你叫乖乖沒守規矩就沒關係了重點在於如果一個國家政府可以這樣做的時候人人都要面臨這個風險這個風險是完全不可迴避那對一個國家尤其民主國家是不可以發聲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7228.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7244.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以國安局有沒有給我們其他相關單位像外交部、旅遊警告、陸委會等等你們對於目前去那邊旅遊、經商、去拜訪朋友等等你們正式的警告是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7245.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7263.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
對我想到對岸去進行相關的旅遊或求學的活動那我們還是要特別提醒那中共他因為有一些國安法制在過去這一年多來的強化那一定要特別注意到人身安全還有個人的通訊安全因為我看你們提出來的樣態連那個一貫道拿著速食推廣手冊他被抓起來現在回來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7264.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7289.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
對,現在委員所螢幕上呈現的這些樣態都是由本局來提供給相關單位對,我看到你們有個故事是有一個一貫道的道青,帶著素食的有有有,這個有那個人放回來了沒?呃,應該,呃,還沒有還沒有還沒有放回來了現在因為一些不同的國安原因,遭到中共來拘留審判的大概有15人那另外在入出進中國過程當中遭到 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7291.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7312.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
對騷擾或是留置詢問的大概有47元但這是我們國安單位掌握到比較具體的個案而且是當事人或隨團的當事人有通報的個案這可能只是冰山的一角我是透過今天質詢呼籲我們民眾去中國如果在海關被你抓進小房間問你票投哪一檔問你在當任村里長之前的軍職工作有都有這樣的問題因為我看到你們有這樣樣態我們是應該呼籲民眾遇到這個狀況應該要向有關單位呈報那他應該跟誰回報呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7319.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7340.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
對,假如民眾在對岸從事商務或相關旅遊的過程當中有遭到這樣的騷擾的話,我們當然是希望他回到台灣之後,可以立即來跟跟誰?跟誰回報?他總不能去警察局報案說,那個把公安抓起來?回報機制是什麼?對,可以跟我們的兩岸事務主管機關來進行通報海基會也可以,陸委會也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7342.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7369.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
有這個窗口可以讓你們回報?應該可以,沒有問題如果民眾遭遇到這樣子莫名其妙的騷擾或者人身、人權的侵犯他回來可以向陸委會、海基會相關的窗口來我建議你們這個宣導一下因為你們掌握的建樹偏低啦可能很多民眾要問問的過去就算啦應該呈現一個樣貌讓我們知道違邦不入這個違邦的數據到底到多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7369.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7390.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
對,我剛剛也跟委員特別說明了,我們剛剛掌握的數據只是冰山的一角,那是透過國安單位有對於當事人的約談以及隨團當事人的說明,我們才能把這個數據列進去。因為我們今天的主題叫做這個監控啊,政府的不當控制,其實要看什麼叫政府不當控制,看中國就知道,你看中國啊,他們的天網工程, |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7391.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7417.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所謂的不當控制是所有的數據所有的影像所有的發言可以連結到個人或家人他可以給你扣分像社會信用體系他要扣你的分數當然要知道你是誰就連到各支可以處罰你在台灣臉書PO文的在這邊讀書的中國學生他的家屬在山東我就知道一個個案當老師的就被公安叫去問說你兒子講話最好注意一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7418.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7436.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
就像在昨天中國東北地區有4個外國人被人用刀捅了之後幾秒之後所有網路上的訊息通通刪掉了這個才叫監控這個監控到個人到家屬可以處罰可以警告可以扣分所以像中國光2023年用維穩當理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7440.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7458.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
抓進監獄裡維穩就是你講話影響國家穩定你罵了國家領導你傷害了社會安定被抓進去關的有240萬人所以這題目我們今天題目太好了那個就是國家機器監控整個社會國家機器監控整個社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7459.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7485.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那在台灣社會有的人樂於指控台灣政府坦白講啦 國安局有這麼有本事的話你不會在那邊被我問的啦換我被抓起來了啦就樂於指控台灣社會有監控更樂於去擁抱監控逮捕240萬人的極權政府荒謬嘛所以我回到那個 局長先請回我請中華電信那個副總喔NCC來請上來齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7492.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7504.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
事實上所謂的數據分析跟各自監控我不知道我這樣分法對不對兩位也是專家data跟metadata的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7505.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7531.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
如果說用詮釋資料有人叫做後設資料有人叫做詮釋資料有人叫描述資料也就是datadata就是原始的數據資料我來描述它的輪廓描述它的樣貌描述它的特徵給予一定的詮釋這個叫做商業運用大數據人流分析我這樣描述有沒有錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7532.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7560.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
委員講得很正確這其實有一條線啦這條線誰知道呢現在高中生、大學生知道啦就是說今天我如果掌握誰來遊行我可以找到你家找到你的家人給你處罰、給你警告那個是透過RAW DATA去監控人民那如果我透過一場演唱會跨年晚會一場遊行、兩場遊行我來描述說它的平均年齡概括到底在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7561.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7574.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
他的樣貌所謂的樣貌是數據樣貌特徵是什麼這就是幾年常常講的大數據分析嘛我們不是有大數據專家在當立委嗎就把這兩個混淆在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7575.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7602.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
好多個委員會都在問同樣的題目其實把data跟metadata弄清楚之後國安局掌握這條線有沒有raw data外洩有沒有raw data被濫用有沒有raw data被拿出來處理有違法沒有我們不能去扼殺metadata的運用阿因為這是現代社會包含AI在學習的進步當中metadata都要用的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7602.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7623.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我今天我不是調查單位我沒辦法說誰有誰沒有但是我們常常混淆這兩件事情的憤記會讓現在各大數據公司電信公司我看最近不要做調查行李不做了商場分析不敢做比方說我不能去描述某個診所哪個患者患了什麼疾病我違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7624.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7639.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
但我們可以描述說在臺灣的多少人以下的診所平均有多少人次看的是慢性病前十大為什麼要不然我們每一年公佈前十大慢性疾病前十大癌症怎麼公佈的那個就叫做metadata他有很多運用這兩場演唱會 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7643.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7667.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
前面一場來的都是50歲的因為演唱者唱的是大學成時代的後面這一場唱的唱的都是16噸在那邊跳來跳去的那個年齡大概30歲以下這個叫做描述數據詮釋數據所以兩位我們台灣目前對大數據或者人流或者所謂的厚色數據詮釋資料的應用我們這個市場已經進入多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7668.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7686.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我想跟委員報告其實早期從LBS到現在的這個就是大數據的分析我想這個已經有10年以上10年多了啦10年多了啦然後有的數據叫做第二層數據這是我們在寫論文用的我就不贅述所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7686.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7711.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
不要因業廢食不要因為政治上政治上可以立場不同可以互相攻防甚至於因為在某個地方疊了膠社會觀感不佳全部轉移焦點來處理另外這個是政治上的攻防但不要因為政治上的攻防去扼殺了一個發展十多年的數據或者是外貿這種分析的一個產業我也建議NCC有一條線要守住 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7712.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7719.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那條線叫科學法律這兩件事把手住來那兩位請回我最後一分鐘值請問海巡署副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7722.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7751.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那個謝副署長你本身你是警還是軍出身的警職我不知道我們這邊有沒有海軍出身的昨天的海象大概三級浪高大概兩米到三米然後那一艘快艇到淡水的快艇是大概五噸而已很小七米長1.97公尺寬大概預判是五噸以下應該是不到五噸浪高兩米到三米從福州直接開到 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7753.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7779.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們這裡 容不容易開我們研判可能的因為距離大概135海里左右大概約260公里那油箱它有260公升它的油料可能帶夠了但是我看媒體有一群媒體第一時間報導說有大船換小船有沒有這個情形這部分我們研判是臆測目前沒有具體證據因為我們勘查你講它直接開來其實也是臆測 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7780.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7797.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
從油料跟相關的數位證據來我們手機有查扣那目前就是我們一勘查現場那船體沒有任何的吊掛設備那另外油料等等相關機證它直航過來是包括剛才海象當事人是主張它直航還是中間中轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7799.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7820.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
當事人是陳述是說他是直航過來我覺得查清楚啦因為我們淡水河口有淡水大隱是我們國防重鎮是首都衛旭的本島的最重要一條線我們的特戰部隊還要守在那邊如果一條艇就這樣過來的話你們昨天的陳述對的硬體沒問題是人的判斷出問題第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7821.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7823.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我們做最嚴格的判斷,我們會做最好的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7854.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7858.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好 謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台諮詢謝謝主席 有請國家通訊傳播委員會翁副主委請NCC副主委委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7876.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7897.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
副主委好副主委我們這幾年呢我國的這個詐騙的這個案件呢是成長非常的這個迅速那案件量跟這個詐騙的金額就是逐年在攀升那賴清德總統這個上台就是上任以前呢其實這個現在有一個媒體他曾經做了一個民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7898.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7901.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那就是說認為就是賴政府上任之後國人最擔憂的問題是什麼結果出來就是49.7%的認為就是說詐騙這部分應該要儘速來做處理他比這個低薪高物價高通膨的都還要高的一個擔憂的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7919.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7938.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
但像過去的話我們有看到就是說其實有很多的這個社群平台他們其實都有假冒這個名人然後刊登這個廣告的事件其實很多國人都信以為真然後呢都被詐騙了 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7940.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7941.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7960.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7981.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
一罪一罰那甚至2017年的時候詐騙騎騰收腦那要加重等等可是這些呢都沒有辦法來遏止這個詐騙的這個這個犯罪案件的這個發生那像過去有一些數位平台他們比如說收取了一些詐騙集團的一些廣告費然後呢可是我們對 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7983.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8005.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這些,可是這些詐騙,他們刊登的這些詐騙集團的這個廣告之後,過去是沒有任何的責任嘛,對不對?請問副主委,像過去的話,我們是無法可管嘛,像比如說我們看到一個數位平台上面刊登的一個王仁勳假冒,假冒王仁勳,然後這個的一個詐騙的一個廣告,像過去就是無法可管。 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8007.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8025.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
是這樣子嗎副主委我想那個跟委員報告現在打造專法裡面就對這些數位平台他有民眾假使有要去下下要去投放這個數位廣告以後要實名制我想說打造專法之後那個對數位平台已經有他 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8026.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8055.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
民眾有人有一些業者他要到這個數位平台去投放廣告要有實名制我想這一部分應該可以遏止打詐裝罰是 現在過去就是沒有嘛現在本席之前也執行過相關的這個問題我們說我們一切都要從源頭管理開始可是這麼多年以來一直都沒有做所以受害的這個民眾是無數所以我想說打詐四法下來之後其實我們有修了 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8056.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8074.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
相關就是這些像這個數位平台如果說刊登這種詐騙明天正好就是一個詐騙的廣告可是卻刊登了所以我們現在相關的法律是有規範它必須要有責任嘛是不是可是我們查緝是請問是如何查緝呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8075.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8094.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我想說這個部分是數位部他有跟所有的數位平台他因為這樣以後投放廣告都要透明就是說要實名制要透明我想這個部分數位部已經有跟Meta或者Google這些數位平台已經有在做了因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8096.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8120.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
因為數位部這邊也很加速的在做這件事情有 確實有 而且我想說我們也知道打詐這個專法會過 可能近期就會過所以說數位部已經在準備這些前置的作業另外通傳會這邊我們也會針對那個黑美卡就是這些國際漫遊的義務卡這一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8120.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8123.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
昨天也找電信公司來跟他們講做一些討論怎麼樣來加速這個就是對這個黑美卡怎麼樣來防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8143.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8154.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
謝謝副主委的這個說明那我們也希望就是說能夠透過NCC或是跟法務部還有訴法部一起來努力因為說實在的我覺得台灣的這個詐騙的這個狀況越來越嚴重我講對台灣的國際形象其實也是不佳的所以我們希望就是說從源頭開始來管理是不是可以遏止這些詐騙的這個事件來發生啦謝謝委員的指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8171.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8194.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好那再來我們剛剛有提到所謂的這個打詐司法其實我今天有看了這個國安局的這個報告就是說不管我們是不是比如說國安局他要核發通訊監察書之前他都要呈報向台灣高等法院的專責的法官同意基本上來講的話好像他們在這方面就是說比如說需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8196.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8196.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8211.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8237.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
檢調跟這個通信業者索取相關資料這個程序的話是不是也會說比照國安局的這個做法我想說那個通傳會這邊在電信管理法上面就是檢調機關他要去調那個通信監察或調列調列通信紀錄都是由採法官保留的原則或者檢察官保留的原則這個都是依法有按照這個程序在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8237.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8241.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
有些商業的行為比如說有些廠商他是不是會收取一些資料然後用這個買賣的方式然後給一些需要的一些單位或者是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8257.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8258.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
通訊記錄就是說假使檢調機關他要去調閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8277.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8294.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他要去執行通信監察或調味通信記錄的話都是我們按照電信管理法電管法或者通保法上面都要採法官保留至於說民間有一些數據公司比如說Google或者是Meta |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8295.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8311.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
他們有因為收集到民眾的一些個資其實那個APP我講一句話就是不用錢最貴那你使用他這個APP之後你的個資可能會被他收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8311.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8321.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
但是這個部分你在使用這個APP的時候所以反而是APP的那個是比較危險比較漏洞的這個部分所以不要隨便下載APP這個部分確實是剛才也有委員提到確實要來民眾在使用這些那個APP的時候要注意到就是說你的同意你同意他的個資是到什麼樣的程度你的定位 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8337.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8349.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
你同意到什麼程度可能也要就是使用者自己要去了解但是假使是電信法、電管法的部分NCC這邊都要求電信事業一定要遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8353.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8367.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
各支法的規定、治安法的規定甚至要按照假使有檢調單位來要求通信監察或者是要調位通聯記錄一定要有檢察官或法官核發的一些證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8367.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8394.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那還有我再請教一下副主委我們行政院就要成立這個各自委員會委員會這已經有設立這個籌備處了往後我們NCC跟這個各自委員會之間的連結呢或是這個怎麼樣的連結這個部分就是6月3號我們在大院交通委員會也提到就是未來電信事業我們會電信事業會導入個人資料去識別化的驗證標準規範我們會來跟去識別化不是過去一直都有在做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8394.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8417.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
對,但是這個部分要有一個比較標準的、驗證標準的規劃我們會跟那個各支籌備委員會一起來努力趕快來建立,對OK好謝謝,我在想這個各支委員會的這個成立還有NCC像我們這個打架司法的這個出現看是不是可以說有效的來嚇止一些這個各支外鬧或者是說被詐騙的這個情形這個發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8422.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8428.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
副主委您先回座我要想請教另外一題就是國安局我們蔡局長請蔡局長副局長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8435.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8442.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
司法局長最近中國的探空氣球平常入侵我國尤其是說520之後今年據說都超過百顆的探空氣球侵入我國的領空當然中國的說法說沒有我們只不過是要去收集一些氣象的資料而已那你對於中國的說法你覺得他這個是不是有點逼中就輕是不是真的有其他的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8463.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8479.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
對,中國的碳空氣球到我們的空域來活動大概主要集中的都是在每一年的11月到隔年的4月那因為配合到西南季風的推出可以讓碳空氣球飄到台海中線以東的相關的空域 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8479.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8507.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那對於這部分來講今年為止已經有121顆的中共的探空氣球到台海空域來進行活動那我們認為說它可能除了一般的相關的科研研究以外也要注意到它有相關的軍事用途因為它可以收集相關的大器的數據那對於未來解放軍假如火箭軍或遠程火炮要進行攻擊的話這些數據都可以當作一個火炮試射當中要控制的這些大器的數據資料的參用的圖示 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8509.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8534.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所以局長認為所以他這個其實說他只是收集氣象的這些資料其實他背後其實可能還有其他的對那另外也要注意到因為他的這些的洗腦飄的空域大概都在1萬到2萬8的這個因此的高空那也會是我們的戰機跟民航機特別是國內間國內線的民航機的相關的飛岸活動那這是另外一個層面要注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8534.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8534.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8564.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8566.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
接下來請洪森和委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8587.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8601.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
主席請關局蔡局長然後NCC翁副主委請蔡局長NCC副主委然後還有中華電信中華電信林副總謝謝主席 委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8605.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8630.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
呃 局長我其實我們一直在本委員會其實這個我記得之前我們已經兩度其實討論臺馬海蘭的事情那其實這個議題我也是在去年的時候3月當時就質詢過陳建仁院長那我今天為什麼還要再談這一題的原因是因為我其實感覺到 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8631.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8658.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
一個很明確而且正當性很高的國安的訴求主張但我感覺現在在行政部門裡面卻出現了一些阻力這是我今天為什麼還要再持續在談這一題的原因這個我其實在去年3月的時候其實那時候我就很明確說 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8660.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8686.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
臺馬海蘭應該列入關鍵基礎設施去年3月的時候陳院長也表達應該那這一年多來我陸陸續續跟NCC包括跟海巡署包括也質詢過蔡局長蔡局長也跟我說你也覺得臺馬海蘭應該列入CI那NCC你覺得臺馬海蘭該不該列入CI |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8688.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8714.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
跟委員報告因為馬祖跟台馬之間的海嵐那個被漁船勾斷的次數太多了也有一些事情我是認為說有必要把它列入台馬海嵐要把它列入關鍵基礎設施那因為這個部分是電信管理法42條的規定需要由數位部來認定那問題來了現在問題來了因為今天數位部不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8715.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8736.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
NC現在大概很清楚表達其實應該列入關鍵基礎設施然後由數位部以韌性保護的部分來去處理這個事情現在我們看到5月15號國土辦有找了國安局、海巡署、速發部等單位其實討論過一次這個事情當時是有說由主管機關速發部與中華電信進行下一階段的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8738.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8753.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這場會議5月15號到現在其實已經將近快一個月的時間了我拿到一份公文下一張再下一張速發部在上禮拜6月7號發一個文給中華電信速發部說請貴公司評估是否將國內海嵐納入關鍵基礎設施的範圍並於2024年8月9號 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8767.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8794.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
附件格式填寫相關的調查表中華電信昨天這是禮拜五的發函那昨天是第一個上班日那我其實我的辦公室也跟中華電信來去做詢問那中華電信現在給我的回答是中華電信是一家民間公司無權限決定只能被動接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8795.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8810.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那我跟中華電信說那可不可以讓我們知道一下中華電信是內部是哪一個單位在負責這件事情中華電信回覆我說不方便透露林副總現在可不可以回覆了 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8812.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8830.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
報告委員,我想中華電信對相關事項的評估跟決策有一定的流程,所以這可能不是哪一個單一單位對這個部門做出的決策。那你副總,那我現在問副總嘛,你是代表你們董事長來的嘛,那中華電信現在對於台馬海岸納入CEI你們的看法是怎樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8832.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8861.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我想就如同關鍵基礎設施這一個部分呢中華電信這邊都是配合相關的法令的指定不是啊現在數位部請你們評估啊看看剛剛的那份公文數位部請貴公司評估啊是那評估的部分因為剛聞到本公司我想相關的作為我們會盡快的這個展開那也跟委員報告在中華電信公司相關的決策事項呢在整個經營團隊會去做過討論之後再做相關的這一個回覆跟說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8863.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8884.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
林副總 這個會議是5月15號就開的喔交由數位部跟中華電信兩個去做下一階段的評估喔國安局也說應該NCC也說應該局長我們現在看到變成數位部跟中華電信兩個在互踢皮球啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8886.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8910.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
你覺得這個事物對於我們整體國安來說是好事嗎?對,就國安局角度來講因為我們在跨部會的協調平台就是行政院的國土安全協調會報我們可以出席所以針對這個問題假如有召開相關會報的話我們會繼續來反映局長,我們剛才活生生看到中華電信跟數位部故踢皮球的過程嘛數位部發文了中華電信說對不起我不便評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8913.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8915.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
你會評估嗎?那什麼時候可以給答案?所以什麼時候可以給答案? |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8931.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8953.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個事情是我從去年3月這不是新議題喔去年3月台馬海欄斷掉連續斷兩次的時候我們當時就問這件事情已經事隔一年又三個月囉你們其實是這相關的你們應該是維護者的角色嘛對不對你們維護者的角色到底對這件事情的看法是什麼現在沒有看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8956.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8977.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
如果我們每一個相關的國安上面的關鍵基礎設施維護者都是這個態度的話我確實是覺得這對我們整體的國安來說其實是看慮的局長一年又三個月囉我們的維護者對這件事情還講不出看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8979.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8992.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這不是新議題不是一個月又三不是一個月喔跟委員報告那個騎乘的部落降我一定會依照主管機關的要求去做配合另外剛剛委員也提到說中華電信是關潛技術設施的維護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8994.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9020.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
關於相關的評估的部分納入關鍵基礎設施中華電信公司就要確實做到這個關鍵基礎設施應該要做到的事項我想這也是海嶺的部分確實有它的一些特殊性那再加上這個地域是對岸漁船的密集活動區域所以相關的事項的評估我們會從如何達成這個關鍵基礎設施的維護做相關的評估跟提出說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9021.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9046.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
副總看一下這個這是關鍵期五設施盤點作業須知這我想大家應該很熟悉個別設施的維護者不只是要打分數他還要對於進行設施的分級建議我其實不知道為什麼經過一年又三個月目前中華電信還沒有辦法對於台馬海嵐的問題就國安上面的問題給予具體的建議具體的態度為什麼還沒有辦法說出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9050.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9077.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我們會盡快的去處理這個事情到底你給個時間點吧兩個禮拜我們會依照主管之關的期程裡面去完成辦理那個局長我坦白說我真的覺得這個過程齁我之前也給國安局給國土辦時間現在還弄到是現在是這樣子讓數位部跟中華電信之間互相踢來踢去 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9080.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9104.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我真的認為這是從國安專業的角度來說,我不知道你從專業角度怎麼看待這個過程?對,我當然了解委員的關切我真的非常非常遺憾完全了解委員的關切,就那個我們的通訊韌性跟安全來講,外離島的海嵐確實是非常重要的議題,那也謝謝委員長期的關注那可能在評估過程當中,我的理解一個是事業機關他要做他自己的專業的評估,那另外還要再到主管機關進行跨部會的協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9105.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9133.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那我剛剛也跟委員報告交友決策機關在所謂行政院的國土安全協調會報我們如果發聲的話我們會把委員這種的關切帶到討論的過程當中我知道你們已經進行跨部會協調了嘛國土辦也開會了嘛對所以國土辦的決議交由數位部跟中華電信來去做最後的評估跟判斷嘛我之前也問過你嘛你也跟我說了這個過程進入下一階段判斷嘛可是到目前為止兩邊看起來是在踢皮球啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9135.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9161.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我認為從國安局的角度應該告訴、清楚告訴數位部跟中華電信這種踢皮球的態度是不符合國安需求的是違背我們在國安上面需求的我覺得國安局要把這方面的專業要講得非常清楚我們會來從國安的角度來提醒但因為現在的中華電信它還在它的作業階段那可能這一部分看怎麼樣配合到主管機關的要求儘快提出比較專業的評估去年3月陳院長就說應該納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9163.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9192.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所有的人看這個CIA相關的規定都認為應該納入假如我們每一個關鍵基礎設施都要判斷一年三個月甚至要判斷一年半我其實會對我們這個CIA相關的維護跟風險管理真的是會很擔憂的我今天在這邊是我們在國防外交委員會我第三次質詢這件事情我真的是希望中華電信不能再用之前這種推卸的態度了 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9195.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9216.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
就用專業來判斷如果你們專業不足以國安專業不足以判的話你們就該跟國安局請教就該跟國土辦請教而不是用便宜形式的做法去年我們就講這件事今年之前這個中共的利劍行動也特別針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9218.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9220.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我沒有辦法接受這種評估的時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9245.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9264.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
林副總麻煩你把這個訊息清楚的帶回你的公司裡面可以嗎是我今天沒有做其他的要求只希望在判斷這件事情上面從國安專業的角度來去處理這個問題而且這也不是我第一次要求在這個委員會我們就談了三次我也不是特別針對中華電信 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9266.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9267.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9699.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9701.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
請各位回座開始開會我們現在開始開會接下來請鍾嘉斌委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9730.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9757.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請國家安全局蔡局長以及法務部調查局吳副局長和NCC公務主委以及中華電信林副總請蔡局長還有以上各列席單位就位謝謝謝謝主席 周委員好好 局長好還有副局長以及副主委和副總 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9758.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9787.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那麼我想今天我們在討論的呢就是關於司法調查的應用分析在電信心靈的使用上和商業學術有差別我先請教一下局長看你來我聊一下這個差別一般來講我們在使用電信心靈就是說所謂的中華電信類似的電信業者的這些手機訊號位置的時候從商業或學術研究來講他是在去識別化之後去分析一個群體的輪廓那當然他根據的是個資法跟契約要當事人同意但是呢這個跟我們國安情報或犯罪偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9788.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9788.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
請問局長您對這樣的區分您是否同意? |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9811.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9834.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
對,本來就是按照依照法規來講,就是要有這樣的區分就我們的國安的相關的偵辦來講那他審查過程非常的嚴謹那尤其貴院所通過的通訪法也特別強調的概念是在於最小侵害的原則所以這部分是我們的依法行政主要的標準那吳局長這個跟你們的犯罪偵查是不是也是類似是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9838.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9860.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
請問局長在我們國安及司法使用之後依法必須定期將這些年報送給立法院備查請問你們有根據通報法第16條之一有這樣做嗎有做了送到貴院來備查了調查局你們有嗎還是法務部報告當然有當然也有所以根據通報法現行的規定你們只要使用過之後都要送到立法院來備查對好謝謝兩位請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9862.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9887.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
好現在我們來看一下反而是現在各種的電信契約取得授權就很含糊啊我請教NCG副主委、翁副主委這是不是你們定型化契約的條款的38條他說假方因為業務上所掌握的就是電信業者掌握的乙方就是訂戶、用戶的有保密義務除了當事人要求查閱本身資料之外或者要符合各執法相關法令規定你們不得對電商介入這是不是你們定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9888.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9906.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這個是按照我們電管法17條因為那個就是對用戶的各自的收集處理利用那有訂了這樣子一個定型化的企業那你來看一下遠傳電信的7月的第38條跟你們的一模一樣對不對沒有問題嘛遠傳的那第39條一樣嘛遠傳電信的7月第39條看得到嗎是一樣嘛好來中華電信林副總 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9913.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9935.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
很奇怪你們中華電信的7月的第37條第二項就不太一樣你們說乙方的資料甲方如果有個人收集目的以外的使用目的以外使用要得乙方的同意但是如果甲方處理過就是要去識別化確認第三人無法識別本人就去識別化之後就可以提供給第三人使用請問你們的條款跟ECV一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9938.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9964.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
當然不一樣嘛,你們有沒有取得乙方同意,你們去識別化之後就不需要取得乙方同意了嘛,是不是這樣子?報告委員,我想中華電信這邊相關的事項還是依照各自…我是問你這一條是你們寫的嘛,你們就跟NCC規定不一樣嘛,而且你們前面還說要得乙方同意,但是呢去識別化之後呢,欸就好像不…但就可以提供給第三人,到底要不要乙方同意,要不要乙方同意? |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9967.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9974.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
往下看,要不要以方同意?去字變化之後你們的用戶資料要不要以方同意?你們也講不出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9975.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10002.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
副主委知道了沒有你們訂的條款遠傳遵守啊中華電信的變造一下你覺得這樣有符合你們的規定嗎副主委請說報告委員那個這個部分我們會邀集三大電信業者要拉起你知道沒有直接回答問題嗎遠傳有照你們的規定走中華電信有沒有這個部分的話我們想說要拉起管制要按照NCC的那個來處理好那我們來直接看遠傳做什麼啦來往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10003.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10025.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這是遠傳的,遠傳的隱私權策略,他說收集這個範圍,但不限於,包括但不限於,很簡單耶,我可以看你的東西,但不限於這些東西,那我是不是什麼都可以看?這個條款說,我可以收集你的資料,但不限於以下這些資料,這些資料我一定要收集,但是不限於這些資料,遠傳的條款基本上也幫你看光光嘛,你同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10028.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10055.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這邊我們就是說他要收集的時候事前他要自息同意事後他也可以控制可以option out這個是我們未來要求三大經驗他要做什麼你看他要做行銷他要做非公務機關依法定義務所進行的各自的收集及利用他要做廣告跟商業行為他要做其他合乎營業登記的行為他要做調查統計研究他要做其他諮詢跟顧問服務幾乎無所不包啊他的使用目的是這些這誰訂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10059.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10084.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這遠傳自己告訴你的什麼都可以看什麼都可以用往下看來盧秀燕市長的臺中市政府怎麼跟遠傳合作他可以透過這些資料瞭解國籍、年齡、性別、居住地他可以去分析跟你跟記者聯繫他可以聯繫到你私戀你的數位足跡、順由的景點住宿的概況、線上的行為社群使用的概況請問副主委你就是這樣的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10086.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10105.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
有沒有超出商業應用還是已經到達了可以政治隱私的程度報委員這個重點是說他要去識別化而且他只能去識別化我也可以說不知道你是具體個人我透過你停留的地點你移動的方式你採用的行為我可以推斷是誰嗎不是嗎你覺得這樣可以接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10107.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10131.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這邊我們會請...我會來督導三大電信業者金管會怎麼做?金融業它都有一個共同行銷特別商議條款你們可不可以比照金融共同行銷去取得消費者的積極同意我今天辦信用卡他會告訴我很清楚地告訴我一張紙你們知道嗎?剛剛中華電信那個東西有沒有在給消費者的契約上?沒有! |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10132.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10137.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
在網路上你簽了你自己看就像反諮詢一樣法律通過了再跟你報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10139.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10164.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
中華電信是不是這樣子我剛剛講那些內容你們有公布在你們的契約裡面嗎沒有你們公布在網站上我消費者跟你打了合約我跟你訂了手機我現在同意什麼內容我要上網去看副主委你知道嗎我知道他有用那個這樣可以嗎我想跟謝委員的指導這一部分我們會來努力把它拉起而且會比照那個金管會的那個來辦來副總 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10165.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10192.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
今天你是泡口焦點阿你們覺得這樣做可以嗎跟委員先報告一下齁我們那個各支的條款除了網站有公告之外在受理業務的時候網路上有公告我簽了你的條約我的契約上的書面沒有你叫我自己去網路上看他是分離的一個對這是個分離的行為主委、副主委聽到沒有分離的行為在本公司受理作業的時候會是這是你們制定的規定NC有沒有同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10193.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10208.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
分離的契約內容你簽了一個契約契約的文字你上網去看副主委來最後的結論跟委員再報告一下他那個簽署的部分會包含上面所有的是啊我簽署這個契約部分的內容是要上網自己去看的副主委來 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10209.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10234.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
上週我在教會已經提出面諮詢了NCC目前進度我要求你們修正定型化契約簡易顯著告訴客戶的使用目的設計的欄位要供客戶勾選同意不得因客戶未同意就拒絕提供服務NCC是不是按照這個方式來處理八位我們在近期會來修訂那個定型化契約按照委員指導的方向來處理好那最後中華電信要不要配合修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10235.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10264.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
跟著委員報告我們目前在這一個各自告知事項的預設就是不同意所以要客戶選擇同意以後我們才會客戶不知道他同意了什麼啦你們的最大的問題就這裡啦謝謝副主委副主委什麼時候可以告訴我們告訴本委員會我想我們在年底之前會把年底之前要幾月電信化企業全部再重新修訂就按照委員指導的方式年講完對12月31號對是主席可以接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10266.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10267.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10300.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10306.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
謝謝主席及各位先進有請國安局的蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 賴委員好你好 這個我跟你幾次的巡打我的感覺就是女人長得很帥口才很好但是講很多講了半天你才中的你才 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10329.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10353.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
你知道嗎就是像泥鰍一樣你常常就是你的回答都沒有HIT POINT就是沒有講出來沒有答案你今天大家都最關心的大陸的前庭長或者縣長直沖淡水你答案就是任何可能都有這樣國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10354.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10354.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
請問你請問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10372.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10388.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
有沒有為這個事情開國安會議?有,我剛剛也跟其他委員有報告過在事情發生之後那國安會第一時間就召開了跨部會協調會議來釐清水灘主席是由國安會的吳秘書長主持的秘書長來主持?不是總統嗎?這個問題叫做笑死全世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10396.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10424.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
這部分整個的過程剛剛海巡署也跟其他委員有說明也就是說他在六海里外的時候海巡署的雷達就已經掌握到這艘小艇的位置那後續在做判讀上可能有做一些誤判所以才有昨天做了一些查處你看喔他到了這個位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10426.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10428.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那個時間又是漲潮他到大家從漁人碼頭到大家碼頭什麼意思沿山指揮所、橫山指揮所、海軍司令部不到一個小時耶大稻埕碼頭總統這裡都不到一個小時總統府這裡很可怕耶你不覺得這事情很可怕嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10448.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10476.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這個很嚴肅的問題啊對,這個案例確實很特別是不是很緊張?我們的國防、海防、國防你在幹什麼呢?對,這個案例確實有引起我們的高度的關注特別是當事人他有自己稱他有解放軍的背景所以對於各種的推論我為什麼一開始會講各種可能都有也就是委員剛剛講的可能性也都在其中所以這也是後續查查重點那因為檢方已經起辦偵查了我們這部分就讓觀眾檢發就像我質詢前兩分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10486.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10500.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我們再注意中方相關的資訊有時候有出現這種類似灰色地帶的襲擾我們看到中共有一些媒體會做一些訊息操作目前在注意還沒有看到大規模的訊息操作還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10500.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10511.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
他剛發布喔對這是官方的說法官方的說法對說個人行為他沒有介入可是我都很質疑啊我都懷疑啊他一燒幾萬塊的快艇可以開這麼久嗎開十幾個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10516.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10517.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
報告委員這艘船的話：公述是從寧德出港 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10532.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10553.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
距離我們台灣大概就是136海里,油量我們查出發時是260公升,船上還有備用的油桶,淡水已經剩下133公升從這個基震跟相關的電子取證部分,我們研判這個說法是合理,但是不排除任何可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10554.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10555.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
前面一堆漁船主力艦隊在後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10583.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10585.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
是,對,剛剛也是在分析整個案情,我們認為各種可能性都有,不能夠排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10593.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10616.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
幾個可能告訴我們不要糊弄幾個可能跟我們講一下檢方在偵辦但第一個部分有可能是有中共配合到這一陣子的揮帶的操作他變成是個案之一這是一種可能性第二種可能性是如當時他自己的陳述的因為他對於想往台灣的自由他要來這邊投奔自由當然這是第二種可能性高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10618.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10643.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
因為我們本身並沒有調查權那必須要有檢方在更抽絲剝繭的來收集相關的證據那另外可能也要注意到的是我們也有相關的機證剛剛海巡署也提到了因為雷達對於它的航機都有相關的掌握那還要再配合到它自述的相關的證詞比如說它是從哪個地方出發那回溯它的數位以及海巡署的雷達回放也都要 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10643.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10646.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
美國要把台灣海峽打造成無人地獄,這個可能性高不高? |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10671.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10693.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
剛剛進來會場也有媒體在關注這件事那國安局來講對於國外的相關的政府部門或機構有對台海情勢的研判或各種預案的推演我們都予以尊重那他反映的是國際社會對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高這個我馬上想到一個老公不會打飛彈就好了嗎?飛彈難道不可以打嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10695.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10713.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
對阿,各種劇本都有,但這還是有涉及到中共的政治目的,它政治目的是甚麼,那才會來有各種的犯台的方案的推動可是如果這樣子,美國這樣子,那麼緊張說把台灣現在變成無人地獄的話,我都很怕說台灣打變無人地獄喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10714.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10736.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
對,他的意思,無人地獄應該是說會增加中共在渡海過程當中的戰爭成本他不用渡海啊,飛彈啊,不是對,他是針對這個場景,他是針對假如說有渡海的相關的犯台方案的話只防渡海,不防飛彈,就是這個意思沒有,各種,他只是提到其中的方案之一最後一個,我們的委員,將軍陳永康部長公開說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10738.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10760.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
其實重點都不在兩岸不用擔心不用去講台灣能撐多久一旦打戰48小時以內能不能恢復電力你國安局做過推演沒有對對於那個有沒有有能源的安全跟能源的韌性不是就退演而已這個部分48小時以內恢復人員恢復供電恢復醫療有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10760.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10768.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
有跨部會的機制在協調那我們有從國安的角度來提供給目的事業主管機關來參考指的是經濟部這個48小時可不可能啊要讓我們安心啊對我們會全力的來強化台灣的相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10777.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10795.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我問你都不答有些不是歸我國安局的業管報告委員那些方案是由你國安局統合啊沒有沒有我們是應邀來參加跨部會的協調那提供的是相關的可能樣態還有情報的分享給事業主管機關來做相關你應該有這樣的情報啊一旦打戰台灣的電能不能撐48小時應該有這個資料怎麼沒有呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10799.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10818.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
對,所以我是認為說應該要由經濟部來對外說明,我們不應該來越處代跑來替他做這方面的陳述你已經有答案了嘛,對不對?對,大概,我們大概都有做過相關的討論和推演對嘛,所以你這裡不答,我的問題就是,就是我剛剛跟你講的,人很帥,口才很好,講幾步不知道在講什麼,這樣,這是我對國安局長的一個評價沒有,我們要嚴守我們的憤記,我們要尊重其他主管機關的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10828.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10845.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
來 立法院這裡要講實話啊有你剛剛已經跟我吃下去要講了對 有做過相關推演還是沒講 你還是沒講啊對 有做過相關推演但詳細的狀況要由主管單位來說明因為他的數字也許不斷地在變動當中我怕我提供的也許不是最新的數字請委員可以理解不理解啊好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10852.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10866.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
謝謝賴委員國安其實應該要跟國人做相關的報告因為即使是有不同的數據資料它也是現階段國安局應該是掌握最及時的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10867.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10880.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那這一個部分因為我們開委員會還是希望國安局可以提供相關的資料讓國人更清楚因為如果說我們是處在危險之中我們應該怎麼樣的應處這個應該也要知道以921大地震來說48小時要把它恢復老實說很困難我們歷經921大地震的時候我們的電力是經過很多天才恢復的 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10893.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10913.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以這個部分我們還是希望就整體的國安的一個狀況現況還有未來的一個處置的作為都應該要及時的讓全民知道也讓立法院知道謝謝接下來請羅明財委員羅明財羅明財委員不在請李昆城委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10923.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10930.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
謝謝主席,我們請國安局的蔡局長還有海巡署的謝副署長請蔡局長還有謝副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10934.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10963.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好 謝謝主席 李委員好 局長好剛剛我聽到說這個針對中國快艇長驅直入淡水河口這件事情昨天國安會有開過會議是不是有開 有開那有沒有什麼會議的結論可以公開跟大家講因為那個會議是有列密等所以我不方便轉述會議的內容但是會議的討論重點有針對怎麼樣來釐清相關的案情那以及後續我們在海防或邊境的安全上有沒有要精進的作為那都有做相關的討論有說就公開的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10964.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10985.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
因為現在大家就在關心就是說一艘快艇可以從中國的這個什麼福州的寧德港就這樣長驅直入就進來我們淡水河口這個是何等大事啊那所以我才問說這個國安單位有沒有做這件事情那這個發生了兩三天了有沒有什麼樣的一個公開說明可以讓這個全民來放心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10986.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11009.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
對,在相關的精進作為的部分有特別提到未來的一個通報的機制的精進那另外可能對於一些海空狀況的一個監偵的設備可能也可以再有更一步的提升好,我講幾個時序表啦,那海巡署也在這邊6月8號這個軟性男子架快艇從中國的福州寧德港出發有知道他大概出發的時間是哪時候嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11010.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11014.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
總共航行12小時,在6月9日早上11點10分靠港,所以應該是6月8日凌晨的時候。總共我們預判是12個小時。 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11029.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11051.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那6月9號這個快艇在通過12海里的時候大概是6月9號的哪時候有掌握到嗎?我們這個因為小艇規定的話是在3海里偵測到我們在9點44分在6海里就偵測到了那所以通過我們領海12海里的時候我們沒有任何的這個雷達或是怎麼樣的一個裝置可以偵測到我們雷達是偵測我們是近岸雷達 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11051.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11070.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
因為它設置的高度還要反射波的問題一般來講是12海里可以監測的到那這個小艇的話一般來講3海里偵測到我們這個樣子6海里就抓到那以後大家就他們就派小艇過來就好了但是6海里我們看到之後如果9點44分我的意思是說到12海里到我們臨海的時候我們完全偵測不到嘛如果它是快艇的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11070.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11083.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
是偵測的到他有光點是忽明誤暗這個時候雷超手依規定就要盯著這張雷超手你講的是6海里還是12海里12海里就看得到12海里就看得到了但6海里的時候是確定確定是有光點所以12海里的時候我們的雷達手沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11083.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11108.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
有看到它是要,沒辦法確定是一個漁船,因為它光點是忽明忽暗,比較小,到6點確定。好,那6海里的時候9點44分,6海里的時候有被偵測到了。標定雷達編號,確定。但是還是沒有,沒辦法辨識它是屬於我們的還是屬於中國的。是,只有光點。光點。是。那等於到6海里囉。是。那9點52的時候,3海里,那我們是只有加強監控沒有實際的攔截的行為嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11111.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11135.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
一規定在六海里發現之後就要通報並施威脅程度派艦艇攔截登艦所以他六海里的時候有通報嗎他有通報安檢所跟守望哨可是沒有通報海巡隊的西方區通報海巡隊的線上艇或預備艇出來攔截跟登艦這個是缺失到三海里了我們要慢慢推進了10點19分的時候靠近漁人碼頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11138.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11163.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
巴黎的守望哨採用這個望遠鏡目視用目視來看說是不是我們的漁船我是覺得已經到了淡水河已經到了漁人碼頭了我們採用目視來判斷12海里你說有光點不知道6海里的時候有偵測到但是也不確定到底是屬於中國還是屬於我們的然後3海里的時候加強監控沒有實際去攔阻也都沒有到了漁人碼頭了已經到了漁人碼頭了用這個望遠鏡目視 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11168.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11180.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
這已經到了現在已經2024年了我們還用望遠鏡來目視說是不是我國的漁船所以這個案子我們檢討有兩個缺失第一個9點44分利用海裡偵測到不明光點確定是漁船確定是傳播的話應該因為不確定應該是要派艦艇過去辨別跟登檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11186.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11186.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11206.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11211.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
你們是遲到了這個10點25分他是跟我們的交通船擦撞之後然後呢是杜倫業者去報案我們才知道這件事情的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11235.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11239.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
巴黎首望哨船已經確定這艘船不是我們國際漁船是10點20 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11253.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11272.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那剛才講的順豐122交通船是10點25分報案10點25分報案所以一直在監控中但是就是沒有立即派人員有疏失啦我認為設備也要再精進啦那我再問一下我們的漢光38號演習漢光38號演習以台北港淡水河口是防禦的重要的據點 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11273.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11289.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
他說淡水河如果遭過共軍的攻陷的話我們要怎麼去應備是漢光38號演習然後看漢光39號演習39號演習呢也是以這個淡水河口兩岸大規模軍演下一張圖這個都是38漢光38漢光39就是跟他進來的路徑是一樣的啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11296.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11304.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那我們38、39都已經演習過了結果你讓一艘快艇長驅直入就到了淡水河口那請問一下那這應該是問國安局長漢光40號演習勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11308.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11334.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
這部分應該國防部已經有在針對演習的科目有做相關的規劃我認為啦這個漢光38、39都特別以這個淡水河口就是說如果共軍長驅直入到淡水河口的時候你要去怎麼殲滅如果沒有殲滅的話長驅直入就到中蘇就可能到台北了欸對不對還演練過說如果關渡大橋可以把它炸掉都有這個設想嘛那結果一艘快艇 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11336.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11356.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我是不好意思講一稍快點就把我們漢光38號、39號演習這個暴露出來的缺點在哪裡啦所以我認為說他雖然這是目前看起來是個人傷害性還不大但是對我們國軍、對我們海巡我路線極強這真的是要檢討因為一稍快點就把我們過去這個漢光38、39號、30、40號演習是7月份開始嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11364.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11365.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
好,謝謝,謝謝局長,謝謝副處長,謝謝主席好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11393.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11396.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
接下來請汪小玲委員上台質詢有請蔡局長請蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11421.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11434.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
蔡主席蔡局長好我想今天大家都非常關心有關於這個大陸的快艇紅金號9號的時候上午闖進淡水路船頭的靠岸事件那其實從這個事件裡面凸顯出 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11437.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11461.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
整個國安確實出現了重大的漏洞還不僅只是海巡署的問題那麼這些年來其實大陸偷渡客的事件屢見不鮮雖然說跟30年前相比偷渡客的人數已經大幅的下降對,沒有增加對,沒有增加那當然有可能也是因為疫情之後其實台灣這裡看起來也無利可圖啦所以這個偷渡客的數量就減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11464.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11464.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
對岸的偷渡客來講從去年到現在大概有18件 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11493.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11515.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那其中有兩件就是間接到臺灣本島的水域跟港口一件是在中部地區那一件是在這兩天發生的淡水地區那就整體的偷渡客的相關的數據來講剛剛跟委員有提到數據並沒有大量的增加過去這6年大概偷渡客的數量有1456元那其中最大量的來源還是在於 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11515.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11517.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
雖然說大陸的地方,大陸的偷渡客 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11536.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11537.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
對,委員剛剛提到一個很好的問題就是說對於剛剛過去十幾件、十八件中國偷渡客的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11558.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11570.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那就國安單位來講我們有一個一個去了解到他們對於調查過程當中的說辭除了中國的大陸的偷渡客之外其他的東南亞偷渡客的部分呢你們都沒有都有都有這個只要有偷渡客進來的話一來在相關單位進行的行政調查查之後都移送到警方來進行偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11577.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11606.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以檢方也會針對他的一個範型看有沒有違反入出境管理法或相關的國安法規是了解不過就是說從這個實際的數據來看看起來我覺得我們這裡的掌控可能還不是很好那麼否則的話我們也不會有這麼多的偷渡客還是會來台灣所以我希望說國安局在這方面未來在通知的掌控方面還是要加強那接下來我想請教一個問題也是前幾天在新聞上面有看到沈博洋委員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11607.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11618.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
村里長和立法委員、大學教授是中共的第五大中隊是會被中共滲透的高風險人士請問,局長您同意這個說法嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11620.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11640.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
對 這個問題剛剛也有其他的委員在提問那基本上來講我想對於委員們有這方面的討論我們都尊重那但是在數據上我剛剛也有做一些說明就管單位來講我們在看所謂的共諜案的偵辦我們必須要有法律的依據針對我們的管法或相關的反滲透法來看他的行為有沒有違反相關的法律要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11640.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11659.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
假如有證據的話,我們才能夠移送到檢查機關或調查機關來進行偵犯。好,了解。那請問一下,你們通常來講啟動的調查的標準是什麼?如果說是違反反滲透法或是你們講的違反國安法,是這些上面這些人士他們可能在大陸有定居,有親友在大陸定居、經商或是常常去大陸參訪,接受大陸的招待? |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11662.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11679.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這個部分就是對於兩岸比較正常和合法的一個交往活動我們都尊重也不會有任何的意見就國安單位來講我們比較注意的是有沒有違反相關的法規舉例來講依照國安法跟反滲透法主要的有包括發展組織主要的有可能包括有借選的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11680.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11697.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
若是他有去干預到投票或集會遊行．簡單來說就是說還是可以請局長在這邊幫我們澄清一下就你們現在目前國安局所調查的案件當中基本上沒有什麼是有涉及到大學教授的案子立委的案子有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11698.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11707.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
從去年到現在,偵辦有81件的案子,其中被起訴的有39案,那主要涉及到的還是簽密,那現在主要的涉及到的這幾個案子,主要的還是在於簽密,特別是涉及到對於軍中資訊的簽密,第二個就是借選。 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11719.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11743.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
有關於金選案子,看起來很多的起訴案子,一種是不起訴,另外一種是判決確定。有31件起訴,去年到現在31件起訴。但是通常來講,到最後被判決確定有罪的,這個比例是非常之低。接下來我想請問一下有關於前立委趙天麟的案子,你們現在的情況怎麼樣?你們在這個新聞媒體爆發之前,你們是不是就已經有相關情資? |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11745.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11763.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
因為這個案子爆發之後檢方已經介入偵辦那在介入偵辦之後我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查但假如檢方有需要國安單位來提供資訊的話我們會提供在這個案子新聞爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資對於這個立委有大陸女友的這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11764.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11773.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
這個案子我們並沒有在事前有了解到這位委員有這樣的交往的狀況對,但我們對於委員的個人交友狀況我們一般不會特別去針對哪個委員的個人交友狀況來進行政治偵訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11781.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11798.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
交友對象是很特殊的啊所以我必須說我覺得國安局在這方面的情資掌握還是有些問題然後最後我想要再問局長的就是因為最近有消息傳出說可能會有政黨團體會針對立法院即將進行的復議案的表決的這個事情那會發動抗議群眾衝進立法院癱瘓議事程序請問局長有獲知這個訊息嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11809.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11833.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
假如有任何的那個陳抗情資的話我們都會進行通報所以你們現在都還沒有接獲任何的都還沒開始了解相關的情資嗎因為我們一般人我們現在都知道了有在注意但是我們要注意的是他是不是有啟動他的一個相關的動員的機制那假如有的話我們就會進行通報這包括警政署還有相關調查單位都會通報到國安局這邊來 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11834.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11837.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我希望你們能夠好好的掌握這個相關事情的發展畢竟立法院是國家最高的民意機構我們的尊嚴和安全必需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11859.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11862.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
但是起訴之後判決確定的比例非常低在代表有濫訴的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11889.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11912.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我們接下來請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝麻煩請國安局蔡局長跟海巡署卸副署長請蔡局長還有卸副署長好 謝主席 洪委員好局長 署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11914.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11933.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
淡水河口是本席的選區我一直強調說我們第一線的海巡同仁其實非常的辛苦我們也都理解但是在這件事情上面其實非常離譜會有幾個狀況就是說讓大家覺得是說第一時間看到海巡的新聞稿跟相關的回應是說有全程掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11934.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11955.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
有立即逮捕但後來發覺不是這麼回事但我想先請教的是現在海巡掌握說這一個陸籍男子他承認解放軍海軍還是艦艇的艇長的一個身份導致國內也會擔心說是不是有國安的破口那我現在國安的系統有沒有來介入調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11955.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11971.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
有,我們有在了解當然已經在司法正辦了但是在過程當中特別他涉及到在對岸的身份以及過去有沒有一些活動的足跡以及跟中共的官方或軍方有沒有一些連結我們會來進行勾連好,那什麼時候可以對外跟國人說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11973.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11994.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這是一個單一個案還是這是一個有計劃性的預謀犯案甚至有可能他背後有沒有人指使對我們剛剛在跟賴司法委員說明的時候也提到了各種可能性都有有可能是有計劃性的有官方的主導有可能是他個人行為那這部分我們要尊重檢查機關的調查的狀況那需要我們提供相關的情資我們會來配合辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11995.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12022.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
所以國安單位不會主動的跟國人說明因為國人現在已經這是一個重大事件端午連假的時候突然間爆發然後昨天媒體頭版頭到今天大家也都關注那我想請教的是國人也會擔心這是單一個案還是有預謀性這是過去有沒有發生這樣的一個狀況大家現在看起來是第一例但是以現在的鬆散的程度我真的已經不敢想說是不是第一例 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12023.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12045.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以局長你覺得沒有必要讓國人比較安心的了解這部分還在查證過程當中尤其他涉及到他在中國內部的身份跟活動這要花點時間來了解我們會透過我們的國安團隊多久時間還是你覺得是說到下個禮拜可能有新的議題出來之後國人忘了這件事情就傳過水無痕都不會我們都還會開專案的會議來針對這個個案來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12048.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12070.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那是那如果說針對專案個案針對這個個案的部分那有沒有必要讓國人瞭解是說他到底是什麼情況對大概有幾個部分第一部分當然會針對我們想要釐清的要不要說明針對我們想要釐清的重點會請國安單位包括本局11個單位來進行情報的分工跟收集那會怎麼回來之後那假如檢察機關有需要的話我們會提供給檢察機關來參用 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12073.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12084.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
是嗎?但局長你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊本席現在是說是全國大家都華人也關注的一個重點但是國安單位瞭解了可是到最後你們不說明給檢調那檢調如果說又講說這偵查不公開或是說你又拖了三個月半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12091.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12092.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這個艦艇的艇長的身份是海巡署這邊主動揭露的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12114.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12140.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
初步遵循的話他是自己承認是那個中共海軍的少校是,所以你們就沒有檢調單位的這樣的一個狀況你們就可以說明是,但是我們不像剛剛我們國安局局長講是說不管怎麼樣我們可以調查釐清但是都要尊重檢調單位所以你們會再進一步什麼時候會了解他的意圖之後來跟國人說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12142.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12163.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
跟委員報告現在自營地緣署正在偵辦中那當然有涉及到偵查不公開相關細節是目前沒辦法對外說明那我們講剛剛你講啦這一個人他主動承認他以前是少校的身份這也是我們海巡之後在對媒體說的嘛那是啊這就沒有偵查不公開的問題我們這部分只講大方向而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12167.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12190.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
更重要的是來謝副署長本席覺得最沒有辦法接受的地方是因為業者我之後也有跟業者來了解你的新聞稿以及第一時間告訴我們是什麼是這一個人當他停到碼頭的時候在旁等待的海巡人員立即把這個男子給逮捕 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12191.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12216.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
海巡人員嚴正以待當這一個人的快艇靠岸之後立即逮人這是你們第一時間的說法結果沒想到原來是這一個擦撞到交通船之後業者他上岸業者來問然後業者覺得他怪怪的業者主動打電話而且據本期了解業者第一通電話本來還不是打給海巡署對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12219.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12243.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
跟委員報告我們接到電話184 10點54分10點54接到委員跟委員報告喔是啊業者跟本席透露的消息是說他第一通電話其實打給的是我們的警察單位因為業者會覺得是說根本沒有想過說怎麼會有那麼離譜的事情是由一個偷渡客上岸之後能夠在岸上趴趴走或是他坐他的船 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12244.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12273.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
所以第一個時間想的是說應該是我們警務單位警務單位在跟他建議是說趕快應該要通報海巡署所以業者打118118完之後半個小時後海巡人員才到現場把他也逮捕而且這半個小時的過程如果不是業者很負責任的或是有這種國家意識或是社會責任感盡可能的來留住這一個人這人可能早就跑掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12274.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12289.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
委員跟委員釐清一下我們10點20分巴黎守望哨他就發現這艘船不是國籍船是但是重點是業者不清楚嘛是10點54分你們也沒有通報業者業者是被撞到之後他的船的船尾被撞到被插撞 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12290.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12316.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
然後他把那個人留下來聽他的口音不是我們本國籍的人但是覺得說奇怪照理講不可能有偷渡客可以來我們河口內嘛也因此才會覺得是說他可能是我們相關治安問題結果後來打給海巡署海巡署才半個小時後才到場那這半個小時的空窗期其實是有賴業者用國家意識用社會責任來把那個人留在那邊欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12317.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12339.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
各位媒體因為這一艘船陸行快艇它是在11點10分才靠岸因為擦撞之後在現場理論所以11點10分擦撞11點10分才到渡船碼頭那邊靠岸那這個時候11點10分我們同意在這邊所以我現在講的就是這一件問題會讓大家國人沒有辦法接受是兩個部分第一擦撞你們即使講說全程監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12340.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12361.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
但是那差狀有半個小時的理論的狀況而半小時的理論狀況如果說我們以一般在路上有發生車禍肇事逃逸有沒有是那個人跑掉今天好家在是什麼是這一個人有被我們逮捕所以我們才可以了解說他背後有什麼樣身份以及等等後續的狀況如果今天那個人就是肇事逃逸了 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12363.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12384.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
現在大家都睡不著了第二為什麼第一時間海巡居然會去告訴我們是告訴國人說在旁等待的海巡人員立即將這個男子逮捕說海巡人員嚴正以待靠岸之後立即逮人這分明跟現實狀況有出路啊所以你覺得現在我們懲處只懲處這10個人是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12387.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12409.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
目前分署長到雷超首四位還會不會再繼續針對這個個案我現在有看到新聞報導是你的名字啊你的名字表示海巡人員嚴陣以待等快艇靠岸立即逮人你的名字講說船停靠碼頭在旁等待的海巡人員立即將這個男子給逮捕 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12410.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12418.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
換言之你們是不是在第一時間你們上期場觀也接收到不對的一個資訊還是說你們明明知道正確的資訊但是你們想要美化 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12419.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12423.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
11點10分這一艘快艇靠駁在渡船碼頭我們通常一車4人同時到現場所以11點10分是逮捕我們也有錄影帶這邊11點10分那這艘船是在11點10分靠駁碼頭剛才委員提醒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12442.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12443.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
但是通報的時間是不是比業者都還要來得晚現在狀況就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12461.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12489.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
副署長本席現在只講兩點點出來因為本席有跟業者通過電話也確實明白說當天的狀況業者他們很低調是因為他們覺得說這是無望之災但是重點在於是說我們怎麼會放任一個偷渡客一個不知道他目的為何的人進入到我們的河口並且上岸來做相關甚至還有媒體報導我不知道你們有沒有看到還有更離譜的是這一個男子上岸然後跟別人借電話打 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12490.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12517.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
有沒有這樣的狀況?我們收到的資訊就是第11屆11點10分靠港我們同仁在現場是首長帶著總共有4個人在現場當場白骨所以副署長我覺得在這件事情上面我們在深度了解深度了解然後還有就是是不是這一波這樣子就結束了然後還有最重要的是他的目的到底為何?國安局如果說沒有辦法告訴國人你適時的在 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12518.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12518.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12556.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12557.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
兩位好前一陣子發生讓人駭人聽聞的事情大規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12583.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12606.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
不僅僅是個資,而且是通訊資料竟然被民進黨、我們執政黨的高層所掌握大家都在追問一件事情這位民進黨的高層到底是從哪裡取得這些資料那這件事情NCC目前了解的進度是什麼?可不可以請副主委說明一下?因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12608.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12619.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
這些有關於涉及到電信業者所掌握到的個人資料基本上面的行政檢查跟保護是屬於NCC主管的沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12620.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12650.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
委員我們是按照那個各執法第22條我們在113年5月30號有請三大電信業者到會裡面來了解行政檢查行政調查那業者是跟我們的陳述意見都是沒有任何以任無任何私人企業政府機關或特定政黨人士跟該公司接洽有關於侵擾行動的人流資訊那昨天我們在請三大電信業者來 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12655.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12663.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
來開會去識別化這件事情要對這個去識別化的認證標準的程序要趕快導入先跟委員這樣報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12666.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12688.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
所以結論以主管機關的立場來講到目前還是沒有掌握這位民進黨高層他是怎麼取得這些資訊的嗎對不對電信跟委員報告所有電信三個電信業者的報告是說他們沒有跟特定的政黨人士有接觸也沒有提供青鳥行動的相關的人流輪廓資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12689.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12716.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以你們現在處理的只有三個電信業者嗎?未來我們會對一定規模的電信事業也會再去了解因為早上有委員提到這件事情像早上委員提到的四方電信我們也會去調查了解對啊我今天早上看徐曉新委員的質詢我看了真的是匪夷所思按照徐委員他質詢跟掌握到吹哨者所提供的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12718.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12741.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
5月17號下午這位民進黨的高層之所以可以在節目上面大放厥詞啊原來是5月27號上午在民進黨中央黨部就有開會啊他是聽有人報告才得到這個資訊啊那這個清查的範圍恐怕要擴大囉不是只有王逸川個人喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12742.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12769.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
因為他是坐在那邊聽別的民進黨的一級主管在那邊報告拿著四方電訊給他們的資料在那邊進行報告大家全部都有聽到現在這個風波是越來越大要查的可能不是只有王玉川個人啊而是所有參與那個會議的人是不是都聽到了這些資訊了由誰報告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12774.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12803.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
這個報告的內容從哪裡來的是不是如同徐委員所收到的檢舉一樣是從四方電訊所提供的這些事情全部都要徹查到底啊NCC會不會去查報委員我剛才已經有講過我們會對一定規模的電信事業都會去調查了解相關的當事人會不會進行行政調查報委員我們會對電信事業的部分好來我們具體的來看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12804.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12831.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
中華電信從民進黨執政了以後一片綠油油阿包括了大數據中心的總監李承偉包括了董事長郭水義還有四方電訊的董事長吳彥宏吳彥宏是民進黨新潮流的大將阿非常會酬庸阿直接酬庸到四方電訊裡面阿去當董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12833.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12858.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
請教一下中華電信四方電信他們的業務範圍有包括語情監控嗎來請教報告委員就了解四方電信的主要業務還是IDC跟那個上網業務對阿他有做語情監控的業務嗎你們是最大的股東阿董事長是你們任命的阿你應該很清楚阿四方電信有在幹這種事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12860.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12860.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
對﹖好 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12878.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12906.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
你說的沒有錯啊他揭露公開的資訊項目裡面都沒有做什麼都沒有在做語情監控但我看了很奇怪他對於特定的對象、特定的關係是會去做語情監控分析的我為什麼這樣講?來看一下釋放電訊2018年4月的時候取得台南市政府民政局107年網路語情監測分析服務案 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12907.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12927.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
提供服務的對象是台南市政府台南市政府那時候的發包這個標案出去的人是誰陳忠彥陳忠彥另外一個民進黨新潮流的大將陳忠彥要做的網路語情分析結果四方電訊幫他做 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12929.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12954.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這不在他們公司本來的業務範圍內那大家看了會很擔心啊四方電訊手上掌握那麼多data那麼多主機那麼多儲存的資料他拿什麼資料啊去做這個網路語情監測的分析而且四方電訊的吳彥宏跟這個陳忠彥都是民進黨同一個派系的 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12958.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12981.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
民進黨特別的派系拿公帑要釋放電訊幫他們去做網路監測分析接下來2021年我們針對疫調指揮中心所做的那套系統主席也是陳宗彥 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12982.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12996.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
參與的也有中華電信來我問一下中華電信這個系統現在是不是已經百分之百徹底移除了是好你們在移除的過程當中有誰負責監督這個系統的移除 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12997.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13018.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
相關的事項包括主管機關都會做相關的監督跟查證來請NCC確保我們確實移除報告委員這個分做兩個部分這個系統它已經移除第二個裡面的個資也移除我們的平台處有去查核好你們查核的對象是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13020.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13046.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
報告委員我們在那個確定那個指揮中心解編以後我們就立即在同一月的月底前就完成查核那我們查核對象是五那個因為參與這個疫調平台是五大當時是五家電信行動電信事業我們都有到他們的就是機房跟確保他們刪除而且都有請他們留下log記錄然後確定刪除的記錄這套系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13048.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13072.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
除了五大電信業者以外,還有沒有人有管道可以取得?報告委員,這個系統是因為電信事業它是一個封閉的網路沒有其他的業者可以獲得所以確定這個已經移除了嗎?如果有人手上還有這套系統的話,是不是一定是違法的? |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13073.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13076.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
NCC有沒有對四方電訊辦理過各自行政檢查?從過去到現在? |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13098.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13103.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
從過去到現在都沒有?他是不是應該要接受行政檢查的對象?分兩個部分嘛 第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13109.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13128.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
過去他手上長有這些個資：你們有沒有辦過行政檢查嗎?包委員這個部分就是我們按照個資法22條就是有一定規模以上的電信事業才會去檢查所以四方電信規模還不夠大就對了他沒有他沒有負責因為一定規模比如說他擁有的寬頻的用戶有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13128.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13130.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我希望齁你們接下來所做的行政檢查來你看一下各自法22條 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13149.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13165.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
你們做行政檢查的手段各支法給你們很多授權嘛對你應該看得到吧可以去沒入可違證據的個人資料或檔案嘛可以扣留或複製嘛那個不是把他叫來問一問他說沒有就說沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13167.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13183.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
現場該去做的查核就要去做查核嘛因為這件事情非同小可啊這件事情非同小可啊所有參與那個會議的人我希望啊今天承辦案件的檢察官在立法院裡面所做的質詢全部都是公開資訊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13184.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13201.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我希望承辦案件的檢察官不要高高舉起輕輕放下人叫來問一問說沒事就沒事NCC也是一樣你們既然在目前各執法裡面賦予你們這樣檢查的權限就要切實去檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13202.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13230.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
這涉及到大規模國家甚至政黨藉由非法取得的資料對人民所進行的監控一定要徹查到底啊NCC可不可以本於獨立機關的權責這件事情要查清楚啊給大家一個交代可以嗎會 謝委員的指導好好 謝謝這個受到很大的關注我們請相關單位NCC、中華電信都可以盡速處理謝謝接下來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13232.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13237.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
吳宗憲委員．吳宗憲、吳宗憲委員不在．請鄭振淺、鄭振淺、鄭振淺委員不在．請謝依鳳、謝依鳳、謝依鳳委員不在．請張祺凱委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13259.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13266.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
請蔡局長、NCC的翁副職委、中華電信的林副總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13288.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13310.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
局長你現在這個國安應該很擔心你看一方面是陸船直接開進了這個淡水了另外一方面有執政黨的中央政策會的執行長可能像老大哥一樣監控了我們的臺灣的民眾包括小草跟青鳥另外還有執政黨的立法委員說要對我們臺灣幾十萬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13313.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13338.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
幾十萬的高風險勤的人,包括陸配,要做監控你就是這麼煩惱,我先問你一個問題古歷雄啊,我們國防部長先說啊,他說要行使這個自衛權的條件是什麼?共軍,只要是共軍侵入我們十二海裡的領空或者是領海,結果造成這個事情快艇都開進來了,都直接衝到淡水上面去啦,淡水河啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13340.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13353.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我們有行使我們的智慧權嗎?我們有完全的掌握有逮捕人嗎?裡面是不是漏洞百出?搞不清為止三個版本啊還多不起來啊我們國安是不是出了一個很大的漏洞? |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13353.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13377.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
對,海巡這部分有做一些查處的動作那也有釐清整個案情過程當中還有哪些疑點要進一步的來進行調查不只是責任要追究,這個漏洞要趕快補起來,趕快剝剖吧第二個我要談的是昨天王逸川已經被別檢已經約談了他講的是什麼有啊,他說他叫主流去比對啊那就有資料啊剛才國參問一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13380.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13402.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
市方電信是中華電信的關係企業,對不對?他剛拿出來的,鐵錚錚的,台南市政府他承攬了台南市政府的業務,我再給大家看一張他還承攬了蔡英文總統的數據分析,看這個大家看一下為一百五十年的總統大選開始蔡英文選總統的時候,輿情監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13409.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13435.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
還有移情分析費用到了109年還有三筆做什麼?數據的費用數據的分析分析分析這個數據的費用我要問局長跟中華電信四方是中華電信的關係企業一方面我們的立委從習巧芯到黃國昌指正立例 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13437.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13460.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
王毅川的資料是他給的我現在更進一步給大家看蔡英文總統跟他也有業務上的交往現在是不是國安單位跟NCC要去查清楚好這部分可能還是要確認一下相關的所謂的業務有沒有涉及到他的資料是有沒有去識別化還是非去識別化這是一個第一個法律要件要釐清的但是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13463.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13480.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
但是因為這個案子檢調已經在查,二來是國安局我們並沒有司法調查權那對於這個相關的資訊可能細節上可能中華電信這邊可以比較...NCC跟中華電信至少要做兩件事情第一你的一些data都在那個地方對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13482.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13498.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
這Data有沒有外流 這個應該查得你一直在搖頭你沒有去查怎麼知道他有沒有外流對不對 要不然第二個民眾一定有個疑問嘛那四方 四方跟人家業務 業務合作他明明沒這個業務啊他跟台南市政府也沒有這個業務啊他為什麼可以做這個事情資料從哪邊來 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13502.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13531.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
只有三家電信有這個資料嘛,對不對那現在關西碧順便掀起中華電信啊現在不是你搖頭耶這是一個客觀的事實啊,你想我去查啊是不是這樣?NCC要去查,檢調員要查那個有關於四方的假使電信服務的部分我們會去查還對OK,會進去嘛,來來,局長我再問你一個最近還有一個也是蠻嚴重的問題引起蠻大的恐慌的這陣動的立法委員、沈博洋 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13532.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13559.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
他直接挑戰你們,他是接受針訪的時候,他直接說他說國安局很難對國內人士做針訪他說台灣應該要一個應對中國的作戰中心對國內的高風險的高風險群要進行控管這兩個人裡面,有兩個叫你做控管的第一,他說你國安局那麼努力,可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13561.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13565.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
你對國內的某些可能會被滲透或者第五縱隊你是沒辦法做申訪嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13567.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13593.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這部分剛剛早上黃蓮委員也有在關切我們做過相關的說明也就是說這幾年我們在國安團隊進行國安案件的偵辦非常的積極那去年到現在已經有偵辦了81個案件那檢方起訴有39個案件那這已經是歷來最大的數字你贊不贊成說台灣應該要有一個應對中國的作戰中心對國內的高風險群進行控管你有贊成這個意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13593.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13607.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我想委員對於一些怎麼樣來強化國安的一些討論或建議我們都尊重但是我要特別強調尊重現在引起那麼多人的恐慌你尊重喔國安局長對於這樣的一個要監控監控幾十萬人你是尊重的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13609.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13609.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
沈博洋講的高風險情 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13626.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13628.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
中共可能威脅在中國做生意﹚或者有蹊蹺在中國的人﹚包括陸配,38萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13656.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13679.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
所以不會影響、不會讓這些人引起恐慌嗎?我們在偵辦國安案件或共諜案一定要有法律的依據那這也是為什麼我們國安團隊在偵辦相關的案件要依照國安法跟反滲透法的法律要件來蒐證有的話才會移送檢調單位來偵辦那我們蒐證結果到底檢調單位特別是院方最後怎麼裁法這我們尊重司法的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13679.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13706.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
局長裡面有一個很重要的點被點名是高風險的包括立法委員、傳理長、陸配就在台灣有這麼多人你怎麼讓這些人覺得他不是被欺負的有可能會被監控怎麼讓他們安心?不會,我剛剛跟委員說明就在這一部分我們的所有的偵辦國安案件都一定要有法律當基礎這就是我們民主法治國家最基本的標準黑熊協議是一個民間的這個機構他做一些民防的這個沒有什麼不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13707.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13730.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
可是他創辦人現任的立法委員也是執政黨不溫區男性第一名包括另外一個爭議性人物我們剛才在講的王逸川民進黨中央政策會執行長他們現在代表是什麼是執政黨的一個意念的一個表達嗎他不約而同裡面都提到什麼要監控人民的意圖跟儀式的作為這是不是一種民主倒退是不是一種白色恐怖 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13731.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13759.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們台灣以前經歷了白色恐怖之後現在要來一個綠色的恐怖嗎?歷史的教訓還不過嗎?國安局有責任讓全民是可以安心的國安局有相關的監控措施也不是不可以可是一定要得到可靠的情報對不對?有可靠的就像你說的有可靠的情報之後你才能夠針對某個個人或團體做監聽嘛可是現在不是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13760.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13777.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
在民進黨裡面不管是王逸川講的或者是邢博安講的他是什麼他先把某個族群把他化成說是可能的敵人這個在民主國家裡面不是很危險荒謬的事嗎在自己的國家裡面去製造敵人把自己劃分出去錄片就有38萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13780.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13806.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
局長,38萬的陸配現在是你們的監控對象嗎?沒有,我剛剛一直在強調的是,針對相關國安案件的偵辦,假如要涉及到有通訊監察的話,一定要走非常嚴謹的法律跟行政程序。國安局並不是發動單位,必須要由司法警察機關,包括警政署、縣警調有這樣的需求送到國安局,國安局進行審核,再由高等法院法官來進行。 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13807.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13820.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
透過今天這個執行讓所謂沈博洋講的高風險型的這些人能夠安心他不是會被侵犯是,國安正辦依照法律來依照法律來這是依照法律來這是一個第二個我們最後要強調的我們只要是愛台灣認同台灣的人都是台灣人 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13824.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13836.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
只要愛台灣、認同台灣人、恭喜台灣人不要在自己的國內再找敵人了不要再撕裂整個社會操作對立了國安局的任務非常重要好不好?團結民眾好不好?愛我們的台灣人謝謝接下來請羅志強委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13862.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13887.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
主席有請國安局、海委會、海巡署、法務部、NCC還有中華電信請以上單位就備巡台謝謝主席委員好局長我最近有一個感慨我突然有一個發現我們的國安戰略叫做對內天眼對外無眼我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13887.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13917.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我們的局長應該是不認同這個我們這個國安戰略吧對不對沒有 我也說明一下好 說明一下對外就是無眼啦無眼之國啦海巡發生竟然發生陸艇以前的艇長欸 可以開著快艇長驅直路猶如不設防一樣衝到了我們的淡水碼頭請問我們的國安以及我們的國防跟海巡的眼睛長在哪裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13918.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13920.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我講一個結果衝上來了沒有?進來了沒有?掌控他!更嚴重!眼睜睜看著他進來!我問局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13932.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13959.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
馬政府的時候中共軍機有越過海峽中線嗎?有沒有對時空環境不太一樣謝謝啦你們無能啦時空環境不一樣有時空環境不一樣來有越過有逼近24海浬林街區嗎?有沒有也時空環境不一樣我幫你講啦有到12海浬林海線嗎?有沒有時空環境不一樣對而且中共軍事共商現在非常厲害啦現在在你今天我們國安系統海巡眼皮底下欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13961.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13964.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
直接就衝到案房來啦到案上來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13965.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13993.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
而且報告局長我們請海巡署一下我到現在搞不清楚海巡署你的說法可不可以一致一點三種版本海巡署記者會說六里發現陸艇為及時攔截燈檢但暗巡人員快速掌握延鎮以待快艇靠岸時逮人然後呢海巡署北部分署新聞稿是淡水渡船碼頭交通船擦撞業者報案 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13994.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14013.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
安檢所前往查看後逮人然後軟性嫌犯說法是他把快頂靠岸之後自己走上岸上請路過民眾打電話報案署長光你們自己單位就兩個版本不一樣到底哪個版本是真的啊ABC哪個真的啊那個跟委員報告我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14014.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14036.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
北部分署跟海軍發布的版本是一次的只不過是民眾賽10點54報案第一次有講所以軟信嫌犯的說法是錯的第二次我們沒有寫上去那跟委員報告實際是這樣我們9點44分雷達監控到之後第一時間要通報艦艇攔截他沒有通報接下來跟委員報告10點20我們首望上的研究發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14038.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14065.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
業者報案是10點54分我們在10點20分我告訴你基本上我也很欣賞你們反正已經全盤掌握就放人上岸就這樣就這麼簡單沒關係告訴你基本上你不要講說今天海巡前陣子發生無人機到哨所上面去丟放傳單結果呢說因為是鋼哨不是營區這也是我們政府的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14067.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14087.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
對外阿 剛剛我們張祺凱說不要在對內找敵人啦我們國安站是對外放敵人啦任何的今天喊了這麼多的國防、國安措施對外就是無能兩個字來形容但是對內我非常欣賞我們的國安戰略阿我就要問一下中華電信阿中華電信 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14089.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14116.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
請問一下,四方今天到底掌握什麼資料?他的伺服器裡面有民眾的什麼樣的資料在裡面?跟你們報告,如果我之前的說明,四方他本身是我告訴你,他可以拿去做輿情監控,他就掌握,他的資料來源是哪裡?中華電信吧?報告委員,中華電信的資料一定是留在中華電信公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14117.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14127.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
一定留在中華電信公司啊那我問你吼今天我們前面剛才講為什麼講說你們今天來請國安局長我們今天就看到吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14128.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14149.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
從王毅川開始他能夠精確的掌握資料比如中華電信否認啦釋放進來你也否認啦可是招招攔的事實就是有一筆資料可以拿去做分析分析人流分析今天不同場域的政黨傾向的重疊度啊請問這樣的科技這樣的科證的工具我不知道我們的國安局有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14150.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14172.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
這部份檢方已經在查辦了我想還是尊重司法單位好 我要問一下依照現行通保法規定避免國家安全遭受危害國安局移民署可以幫助對幫助境外敵對勢力進行通訊偵查對不對是那沈博洋說中共可能威脅在中國做生意或蹊蹺在中國人希望這些人在開戰時進行一些任務他認為這高風險群有幾十萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14177.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14185.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
所以要管好,然後主張對這第五縱隊的高風險群來控管、增防,你認同嗎?你有沒有收到高層指示來監控這些高風險群?我們現在針對這些高風險群的監控,是什麼樣作為? |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14201.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14217.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我們對陸森、陸配、台山會不會視為高風險群進行偵訪?現在有沒有視為高風險群進行偵訪?所以會不會把特別區隔出來作為高風險群?這個部分我剛剛一直在強調的是要由司法警察機關我問你嗎?有沒有?我不是講個案喔!我不是講個案喔!對 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14223.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14224.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
假如委員提到的這些身份的民眾他有涉入或是有涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14248.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14252.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
有沒有普遍性36萬有沒有你到現在連這個問題都不敢回答那我就嚴重懷疑你有你就是有監控36萬我這樣講你你接受嗎你有沒有監控36萬謝謝你直接回答就好了我告訴你為什麼不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14268.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14289.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
法律本來就是要...我跟委員講因為貴院通過的通保法強調的一種概念是在於最小侵害的原則這是我們依法...你不廢話我也知道我還需要你解釋是是這樣我講的就是你今天有沒有通案你已經告訴我答案就好啦我一樣就答案你沒有阿對啊依照案情來審核依照案情來審核依法行政謝謝謝謝你謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14292.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14319.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那很簡單沈博洋就是廢話他要求是針對高風險群就是針對群別來進行監控我謝謝你今天蔡明彥說沒有啦然後接下來我要講喔我要講喔自由時報喔說喔這個也是沈博洋講喔如果沒有針對這些高風險群進行控管齁人別控管齁台灣就會完蛋啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14320.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14344.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
完蛋了沒?你們也沒有針對高風險群進行群別的控管啊?依照證據,偵辦相關案件依照相關的法律條件來進行偵辦你不要給我問A答B事實上就是這樣,事實上就是這樣你前面沒有針對群別做所謂的政治偵辦嗎?不會針對群別,我們依照的是案情那台灣完蛋了沒?依照案情台灣完蛋了沒?尊重委員相關的討論台灣完蛋了沒?台灣完蛋了沒? |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14347.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14352.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
台灣完蛋了沒答不出來你不敢走就審國衙嘛這麼簡單接下來我要講齁事實上齁我們會發現齁我們的科技偵查法裡面也有規範齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14360.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14382.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
就是為確保國家安全維護社會秩序制定本法那我想請問局長GPS定位追蹤、M化汽車定位、使用熱血象儀等科技偵查手段是不是未來就會使用在國安方面偵訪還是現在已經在使用中?就相關的偵訪手段來講我們並不是偵查單位那必須要看相關有司法警察象儀的單位來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14384.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14404.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我們沒有司法警察權在通訊監察方面針對所謂的通保法監聽結束之後所以換言之國安局相關的國家安全單位都不用做監聽就對了我講通保法監聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14407.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14422.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
對,我們剛剛講到的是,只要司法警察機關有這個需要,送到國安局來審查通訊偵查的必要性的話,我們進行審查,再送請高等法院,法院來同意。對啊沒錯啊,所以你們也會執行監聽嘛,只是要有一個法律程序嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14424.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14449.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
國安局是審核機關,我們不是執行國安局的機關。好,我要問一下,就算你是審核機關,相關為執行國安業務進行的監聽事後會不會通知當事人?這個要看案情的狀況,依照法律規定,沒有,看案情的狀況,三個月評估一次,法律規定是這樣子。法律規定要通知,事後要通知,這是法律規定的。要由法院來通知。法律你還是要理解一下。沒有,一清了,委員也請看清楚法律。 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14449.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14474.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
這要由法院在結案之後,針對案子的決定制的通知不廢話,在結案之後啊,偵辦中不會通知我也知道啊是,沒有錯,法律是這樣寫對啊,那你前面要給我拗了半天,拗什麼啊我沒有啊,就是舉照法律的情形好啦,最後一件事情啦最後一件事情,我要跟你講今天授予我們國安單位,來用我們國家來去做所謂的那個安全的一些偵查是有必要啦,我支持啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14475.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14475.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14502.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14509.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
接下來請邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在請鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在請楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14515.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14538.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我們已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有李毅君委員、楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供委員令威 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14539.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14565.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
約定期限者從其所定今天我們特別訂定這樣子的一個題目主要是我們希望在自由民主法治的國家這是剛剛局長也特別提到的我們希望所有的人民是有言論自由可是他相對的也要受到法律的保障而不是在言論自由提出來之前對於特定的群體做 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14567.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14567.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
今天我們本日會議到此結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14605.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14606.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
委員會主席 |