| IVOD_ID |
15997 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15997 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-20-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-12T08:30:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-12T12:41:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:10:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e38aadac80e2e3f80445fc32f41448fc019186e52af124432fd32fd1b2a11fb755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【6月12日及13日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:16 - 12:41:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1866.584 |
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好 請主任秘書報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數好 主席宣布現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議議事錄時間 中華民國113年6月3日星期一9時3分至12時28分中華民國113年6月6日星期四9時至12時5分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1891.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1911.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
地點 群仙樓九樓大禮堂出席委員黃珊珊等14人列席委員鍾嘉斌等21人列席官員113年6月3日星期一財政部部長莊翠穎行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝等113年6月6日星期四中央銀行總裁楊金龍經濟部常務次長林全仁等主席羅昭菊委員名才 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1914.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1941.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
113.623日報告事項先讀上次會議事錄決定議事錄確定討論事項1.繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案1.本院臺灣民政黨黨團拟據《財政收支劃分法》修正草案案2.本院國民黨黨團委員羅明財等23人委員林思明等20人委員徐宇貞等16人委員洪孟凱等22人分別拟據《財政收支劃分法》部分條件修正草案等5案3.本院委員吳立華等17人拟據《財政收支劃分法》第三條條件修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1942.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1958.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
4.本院委員陳玉珍等24人理據《財政收支劃分法》第8條條案修正草案5.本院委員王洪威等24人理據《財政收支劃分法》第8條、第12條及第30條條案修正草案6.本院委員陳昌明等17人理據《財政收支劃分法》第8條、第12條及第16條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1960.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1975.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
條文修正草案7.本院委員代6人等16人委員蔡玉琳等16人分別擬據《財政收支劃分法》第16條之1條文修正草案等2案8.本院委員代事保等29人擬據《財政收支劃分法》第16條之2、第37條之2及第38條之2條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1976.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2002.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
9.本院委員戴世保等22人拟據《財政收支劃分法》第38條之一條人修正草案2.審查《財政收支劃分法》商案1.本院委員丁學忠等17人拟據《財政收支劃分法》部分條人修正草案2.本院委員黃建豪等21人拟據《財政收支劃分法》第8條及第12條條人修正草案3.本院委員邱振軍等19人拟據《財政收支劃分法》第8條、第12條及第16條之一條人修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2003.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2018.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
本日會議藉由討論事項繼續詢答藉由委員黃珊珊等11人提出質詢均經財政部部長莊翠穎等予以答覆決議一、詢答完畢二、委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2020.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2031.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
3.委員萬美玲、邱振軍、羅廷偉、廖先祥、莊嘉斌、邱樂華所提書面質詢及委員努許婷所提書面補充資料均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆4. |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2031.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2034.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
財政收支劃分法17案令則其繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2036.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2064.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
2013年6月6日,報告事項,邀請中央銀行楊總裁金隆就《日元貶值效應惠佛導致亞洲貨幣競變及對台灣經濟影響》進行專題報告並被質詢,另邀請經濟部列席備詢經中央銀行總裁楊金隆提出報告後,據由委員林大夫等17人提出質詢,均經中央銀行總裁楊金隆等予以答覆決定,依報告質詢答案必,二人質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊,請相關部會予以周內與書面答覆,委員另要求期限者從其鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2065.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2071.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
三、委員陳毅臻所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆宣布完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2072.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2080.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好,請問各位委員對上次議事錄有無異議?無異議,議事錄確定請議事錄委員宣讀今日議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2103.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2132.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好原理介紹在場委員與會政府官員首先介紹我們財務會資深委員林德福林委員另外也是資深委員吳秉瑞吳委員好我們介紹在場的這個官員金管會彭金隆主委許退文處長銀行局莊秀元局長政企局張振山局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2134.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2159.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
保險局施琼華局長檢察局張子浩局長我們證交所林修銘董事長簡立中總經理吉保有限公司林秉輝董事長陳德湘總經理歸買中心陳永成董事長李愛玲總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2162.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2167.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
法務部徐祥政務司長、簡美師副司長、內政部警察局黃仁聰黃副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2178.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2196.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們今日議程就邀請金管會彭主委、法務部、內政部警政署就《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業淪為詐騙工具、金管會就虛擬資產專法制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2201.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2206.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
接著我們就要進行專題報告也請報告人稍微重要的報告因為時間上的關係現在請金管會彭主委進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2218.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2238.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位媒體朋友大家好今天非常高興代表金管會針對以下兩個主題提出專題報告首先,虛擬資產及VASP迅速發展因為虛擬資產交易具有匿名、跨境及不易追蹤的性質容易成為詐騙活動的溫床各國已經開始加強監管 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2241.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2259.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
另外因為虛擬資產有較高的洗錢及滋恐風險國際上許多國家對於VASP的管理都是由洗錢防制及打擊滋恐的角度開始納管我們也是採用漸進的方式強化業者管理及消費者保護以下針對本專案兩個主題說明如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2260.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2283.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
一、為防止不法集團利用人頭賬戶收取犯罪所得防制不當利用VASP從事詐騙活動一、《洗錢防制法》第15條之一及第15條之二以禁止無證當理由收集或提供虛擬資產帳號之不法行為而且我們已經訂定相關的管理辦法規定若違反這個規定的話那個VASP將限制其虛擬資產帳號之功能及拒絕開立新帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2286.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2306.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
另外本會為加強國人市詐能力除了加強虛擬資產商品性質及風險的教育宣導外亦多次發布新聞稿提醒國人並請周邊單位建置聯合建置非金管會核准之證券期貨及商品警示專區提升民眾市詐能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2307.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2322.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
二、在目前在大院審議中的《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》草案通過後預期的效益說明如下一、可以及時攔阻可疑、避留未爭取主詐時效金融機構及VASP發現涉詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2324.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2339.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
犯罪之可疑帳戶時﹐可以採取暫停存入、提領、匯出等控管措施﹐恰惠同業取得額外資訊或通報司法警察﹐及時阻斷詐騙金流、幣流二、建立聯防通報機制﹐VASP應該配合司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2340.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2365.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
警察機關建立聯防通報機制對疑似涉詐款項與虛擬資產圈存管控加速返還招詐款項為強化被害人之財產保護規定如今司法機關通知暫停交易功能之賬戶人留有被害人匯入之款項或是虛擬資產時VASP得依司法警察通知協助返還被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2369.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2380.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
源頭斷詐宣導未遵守相關規範之法環未來將可處心台幣20萬到200萬之法環情節重大者可以加重5倍處罰接下來針對虛擬資產、交易、VASP管理專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2385.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2400.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
而進程進行報告本會奉行政院指定擔任據金融投資或支付性質虛擬資產之主管機關及開始參考國際趨勢以洗錢防制為基礎採漸進強化業者管理及消費者保護策略逐步納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2401.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2417.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
有關VASP相關事項之管理本會系一漸進納管方式共分以下四個階段進行第一階段本會於110年6月30日參考國際防制洗錢金融行動工作組織之指引依據《洗錢防制法規》發布《VASP洗房辦法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2419.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2445.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
規範為他人從事虛擬資產相關活動為業者屬VASP應先向本會完成《洗錢防制法》令遵循聲明使得從事營業活動違反者將令其限期改善藉其為改善《洗錢防制法》第6條第4項規定處罰目前已經完成法遵聲明之VASP共25家形態包括交易所、買賣平台、實體店面、虛擬資產、自動櫃員機 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2447.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2456.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
及託管系統商等VASP洗房辦法規範執行業務時應執行確認客戶身份紀錄保存大額可依現金交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2457.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2480.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
大額及可依現金、交易、申報等措施違反者亦可依法處罰本會於110年已經完成3家VASP洗錢防制的訪查112年已經對4家進行專案檢查113年開始會新增列入年度檢查實施對象我們也從銀行端控管VASP洗錢及止恐風險在107年後陸續採取以下措施進行管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2484.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2504.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第二階段我們積極推動設立VASP同業商業工會並制定自立規範管理為強化VASP客戶權益保護我們參考IOSCO、MECA、日韓港等有關規範訂定管理虛擬資產平台及交易業務指導原則重要內容包括平台資產與客戶資產的分離保管 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2506.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2531.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
交易公平及透明度建立資訊安全及冷熱錢包制管理虛擬資產上下架等審查機制多項原則再來我們督導VASP的同業工會設立並依指導原則定定自律規範VASP工會預計於113年6月13日召開成立大會本會將後續將積極督導該工會依據VASP指導原則精神定定自律規範並加入法則以強化自律 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2532.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2559.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第三階段,與《洗錢防制法》徵定VASP登記制、明確VASP定義及對非法業者刻以刑事責任等加強管理並嚴育於執法中採取差異化管理今本會與法務部多次研商參考美國、英國、澳洲、南韓及香港等主要金融體對未取得執照註冊之VASP定有刑事責任之立法例與《洗錢防制法》修正草案中徵定未依規定登記而從事業務之VASP刻以 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2560.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2588.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
行事責任加強管理未來規劃於授權執法中對於登記的VASP業者依業務複雜程度採差異化管理並研議VASP指導原則重要內容納入登記執法之範圍為更加明確個人避傷亦受為規範之對象《洗錢防制法》第6條修正草案對VASP的定義已經加入提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員以明確個人避傷作為受規範之對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2590.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2608.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第4階段我們推動虛擬資產管理專法立法以更有效納管市場行為同時促進金融科技及VASP產業健全發展我們現在已經委託專家研究團隊進行VASP管理專法進行研究未來專法制定的重點會在於虛擬資產的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2611.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2634.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
監理重點包括業者的許可條件、消費者保護、資本額要求、資產保管、市場交易行為規範及業務發展等研究團隊預計在今年9月提供期末報告初稿本會預計在今年12月底前嚴提虛擬資產管理專法的條文草案後續辦理法規預告、辦理公聽、再依外界意見調整預計在114年6月前將專法報院 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2639.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2663.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
二、促進金融科技及VASP產業健全發展虛擬資產系快速發展之新興科技各國亦積極發展相關產業我國在區塊鏈及虛擬資產領域具有一定的技術能力相關基礎建設完善未來具有發展潛力本會專法制定除積極推動專法納管業者增強市場健全與服務品之外將透過有效措施積極輔導業者促進產業發展強化我國金融科技的國際競爭力 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2668.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2696.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
為維護我國金融秩序及保障國人財產安全本會將持續透過法規完善與落實執行達成阻絕詐騙、防制洗錢與保護消費者之目的台灣在虛擬資產領域有一定的技術與專業實力本會於強化業者管理及消費者保護前提下落實安全與發展並進的監理目標將積極推動專法納管業者並同時推動產業健全發展以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2698.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2701.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 謝謝彭主委的報告 接著我們請法務部徐政次進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2710.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2737.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會就本次專案報告代表本部提出報告並被質詢因本部就《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》系主則第三章溯源打詐執法章及第四章詐欺犯罪被害人保護上開草案關於金融防詐措施部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2738.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2757.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
金融監督管理委員會就金管會主責故就今日虛擬資產議題僅提供本部與洗錢防制面向之意見如下進行指教一、本部離去之《洗錢防制法》修正草案規定本部為行政院打詐綱領懲詐面的主責機關就辦理懲詐業務的刻不容緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2763.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2787.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
務求有效打擊新興犯罪且我國為亞太防制洗錢組織的創始會員國為因應即將到來的第四輪相互評鑑需積極對於第三輪相互評鑑被指出的缺失進行改進以符合國際規範要求本部因此擬據《洗錢防制法》修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2787.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2806.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
經行政院會於113年5月9日通過並於113年6月3日經大院逐條審查後保留二條文其餘條文均照行政院提案通過與虛擬資產及交易業務事務相關之草案為第6條跟20條已出審通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2808.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2829.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
該二條重點如下一、草案第六條徵定對於虛擬資產服務之事業及人員未完成洗錢防制登記卻在境內提供服務者或境外設立而未依公司法完成公司或分公司登記及洗錢防制登記卻提供服務者那科與刑責最重可處兩以下其徒刑並科新台幣500萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2834.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2862.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
理據此規定之理由跟效應一、防制洗錢金融行動工作組織也就是FATF評鑑方法論建議第15項之技術遵循評鑑準則第4點指出應要求提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員與其設立或業務所在之司法管轄區取得執照或登記這一點我們就可以符合第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2863.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2878.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因美、澳洲、南韓、香港之洗錢防制相關法案或規定對於未取得執照或登記之虛擬資產業者均定有刑責以有效調查跟管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2879.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2907.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
2.草案的第20條配合信心洗錢犯罪手法與特殊洗錢罪徵定以不實身份申請開立虛擬資產帳號或以不正方法取得使用他人之虛擬資產帳號而無合理來源收受、持有或使用財物或財產上利益之刑責最重可處年有期徒刑並科新台幣五千萬元罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2909.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2936.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
修正草案對於圍堵虛擬資產業者淪為詐騙工具之作用草案第6條規範對象為提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員因此目前司法實務上最為執法機關所詬病之個人弊傷亦在規範範圍內而本條所謂洗錢防制登記及金管會所訂定虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2938.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2966.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
防制洗錢及打擊知恐辦法第17條所稱之洗錢防制法令遵循聲明又有關個人避傷金管會於112年9月26日發布之管理虛擬資產平台及交易業務事業指導原則第11點規定業者需進行內部控制及機構查核指導原則附則第1點第1款規定個人避傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2967.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2990.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
法尊聲明之內容跟品質需與法人組織相當因此《洗錢防制法》修正草案第6條通過後個人弊傷坦無法完成《洗錢防制法》尊聲明卻提供服務最縱將可疑兩年有期徒刑對於司法實務上涉詐個人弊傷將生一定制裁及嚇阻效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2991.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3011.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
蓋以行者強化納管、自源頭把關可及早攔截不合法合規業者之違法行為防止後續延伸更複雜而偵辦困難之洗錢犯行如金管會研擬相關規範時需本部提供法治意見本部將積極配合辦理結語本部為了落實打詐綱領之懲詐業務積極督導台灣高等檢察署 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3019.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3039.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
增強犯罪增防,例如強化反電信詐騙資料庫系統功能建置金融資料調閱電子化平台加速調取交易資料與國內四大虛擬資產交易所合作建立KYC資料線上調取平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3041.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3056.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
規劃擴大在屆屆至8家國內交易所並建立虛擬資產跨部會聯繫平台即時通報共同查緝匯整境內境外虛擬資產交易所資料調取管道落實通報大額或可疑虛擬資產交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3058.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3081.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
防制洗錢本部將繼續不斷督促所屬檢察機關精進犯罪偵查能力以有效打擊犯罪、守護國人財產法益以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教好 謝謝許正式的專題報告接著我們請內政部警政署刑事警察局黃副局長仁聰報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3092.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3104.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
主席、各位委員先進、各位媒體朋友大家好首先感謝各位委員對於防制虛擬資產、交易業務事業淪為詐騙工具的重視與關心本署進程以下報告敬請各位委員會與指導在虛擬資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3107.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3123.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
涉及詐騙的現況的部分近年來與虛擬資產相關的詐騙案件數量逐漸增加在2023年全班詐欺的案件總共37,000餘件被害案件中有涉及虛擬資產的案件約有11,405件佔整體比例近三成相關的財損也達到現代幣53.45億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3133.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3146.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
虛擬資產今年逐漸有取代實體賬戶使用的趨勢其被利用於詐騙的手法很多元目前國內最常見的仍然是透過網路社群軟體來進行詐騙詳述如下第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3147.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3167.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
詐騙集團會先經過臉書、IG、YouTube、Google或簡訊投放假投資的廣告來吸引被害人進行假交友第二,取得被害人的信任以後會宣稱保證獲利來吸引被害者加入LINE來聯繫並邀約加入LINE社群提供免費的投資教學 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3168.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3186.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
第三,被害人上當以後會接續提供假投資網站或APP給被害人來註冊再介紹虛擬資產的必商讓被害人消費並要求轉匯至假投資網站或APP的電子錢包地址第四,詐騙結論可能會透過簽署智慧合約或是典埋 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3188.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3215.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
點擊埋了惡意程式的連結讓被害人的虛擬資產的控制權入入歹徒手中第五為了吸引被害人加碼投入出其網站或APP的運作並沒有異常甚至可以提領獲利但是這些出金可能都是來自於其他被害人第六當被害人投入的資金達到一定程度要想一次提領獲利的時候詐騙集團即以各種藉口開始拖延甚至就直接關閉網站自此免無音訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3217.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3233.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
再來是報告有關虛擬資產詐騙案件我們目前正在所遇的困境第一個是個人避傷的身份難以查證目前虛擬資產交易業務事業的有關的規定受規範的業者以國內涉惡利益登記者為限 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3233.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3256.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
但是這個事業目前並非特許制所以不需登記也可以從事使得自然人的身份來從業的個人弊商更難以受到規範目前實務上查緝屢遭犯嫌主張他是經營個人弊商合法交易為理由對其掩飾隱匿詐騙賬款進行來抗騙且不乏因此獲法院獲判無罪的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3256.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3279.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
第二是個人的錢包具有高度的匿名性因為個人的電子錢包軟體無從落實KYC然後個人錢包就會有匿名性高、申請速度快、成本低且無窗口可供調閱機制的這個狀況詐騙集團常常拿來作為第二三層的中基錢包使用第三是境外交易所的合作有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3281.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3281.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
第4次 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3297.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3321.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
境外交易所的帳號如果要凍結的話需要外國法院的令狀如果詐騙的款項流向境外交易所我們警方雖然可以向該交易所來申請緊急凍結但是如果有延長或扣押的必要就要向法院來申請扣押裁定那如果欲申請凍結的錢包帳號的登記人不是我國的人民就要向該登記人國籍所屬的法院來申請那實務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3322.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3344.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
也常常碰到法官認為這個案件沒有管轄權或是因為多次的承轉難以證明只有被害人的被害管項進薄為裁扣之申請第三在《洗錢防法》與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》修正草案有關於我們二組虛擬資產被利用於詐騙犯罪的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3345.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3361.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
在《洗飯法修正草案》第6條規定提供虛擬資產服務的事業或人員如果沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完整洗房登記不得提供服務有違則可以處兩年以下有企圖刑、拘役或科或兵科現代幣500萬元以下的罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3363.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3382.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
第二點是有關《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》的草案的部分在第八條有對於疑涉詐欺犯罪的相關的控管措施並可以召回同業第九條是依第八條的規定要保存它的所得跟資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3385.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3399.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
第10條是業者要跟司法警察機關建立聯防通報機制並且對於通報的虛擬資產可以進行圈存跟監控第11條是依第9條規定可以後續暫停的這些帳號如果沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3405.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3425.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
經過提領可以依照原通知機關的通知發還剩餘的虛擬資產第12條是對於業者依規定者可以免足其業務上保守秘密的義務第13條是相關的罰則如果未遵守相關的規定可以由中央目的主管機關處新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下的罰還並且可以按次處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3430.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3459.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
接下來是報告這兩個法令對於修正這兩個修正草案對於詐欺的防制的作用在《洗房法》第6條的修正草案以法令來法令遵循聲明登記制度介入協助規範從業的行為從經營源頭賦予刑事法來進行約束具有嚇阻的效果而且條文裡面有徵定人員這兩個文字即包括自然人在內效力可以給予所謂的個人必傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3460.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3479.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
未來,針對意圖從事詐欺而未完成洗房登記人經營個人避傷的行為將有法可以處罰第二是《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》的相關規定這裡面有制定虛擬資產業者相關的防詐措施科與業者防詐義務而且有發還被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3479.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3499.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
的一些賬號的餘額更可以強化查緝虛擬資產詐騙案件的法令依據及偵辦工具可以有效地惡煮虛擬資產淪為詐騙集團濫用的一個現象所以重上本署對於上述的兩項法案都希望能夠順利地完成修法的作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3500.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3525.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
且與協力強化打擊詐騙犯罪相為本署的一個重點工作我們將透過與相關公司部門的共同合作達成溯源查緝幕後詐騙集團的目標藉此來落實犯罪領導人的政策並有效阻絕不法資金的流傳確保個人財產安全與國家金融秩序的運作以上報告懇請各位委員予以指教並敬祝身體健康萬事如意謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3526.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3543.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
謝謝黃副局長的報告接著我們先來開始詢答先做一下宣告每位初期委員發言時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間為5分鐘今日上午10時30分截止發言登記現在依照登記順序請第一位林德福委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3557.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3576.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
謝謝主席是不是請金管會彭主委還有請彭主委委員好主委你好主委我請教因為金管會上個禮拜有公布最新Google臉書整個詐騙案的統計5月標高到5105件那 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3584.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3605.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
僅次於1月的高峰5203件是去年同期2497件的兩倍按照政期局接獲民眾陳情投資詐騙的案件主要集中在三大的太陽裡面第一種是推薦 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3607.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3610.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
民眾安裝假投資平台 並宣稱APP可插隊搶賬 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3616.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3640.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個暫停版的這些股票並保證獲利第二種就是宣稱虛擬貨幣的交易有高獲利勸誘民眾來投資虛擬貨幣等那第三種則是詐團詐團會宣稱自己是經過金管會核准的合法投資投顧事業並偽造、證照來 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3644.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3648.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3671.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3689.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
你認為就能夠達到預防的效果嗎是 謝謝委員其實防詐是一個多面向的工作像比如說就以今晚會主政主要是兩大部分一個是市詐跟主詐特別是主詐的部分那主詐的部分我們大概是透過一些帳戶的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3690.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3708.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
市詐的部分我們當然是透過各種的教育宣導我們在過去透過我們金融機構以及周邊單位已經辦過非常多的這個所謂的市詐的工作不過這個是一個要持續來做的事情那另外我們對主詐特別是進入到金流以後對賬戶的管理這是我們監管的重點以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3708.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3708.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
主委啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3737.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3762.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
詐團手法變化多端本席認為這些犯罪從業的首腦對社會整個脈動的變化掌控掌握度往往能夠與時俱進以至於受害者遍及社會各個層面案件呈現有增無減主委今晚會公告合法業者的名單希望民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3763.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3791.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
投資前先查詢確認是我為合法業者以確保整個投資的安全另外一方面民眾在金管會核准的證券期貨業者以及商品警示專區也可以查詢到黑名單那業者等資訊請問主委你認為單純公告宣導效果好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3791.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3791.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3821.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3840.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
因為詐團都已經透過網路平台、社群媒體進行無孔不入的犯罪手段和行為那我請問主委你認為政府機關有沒有更積極的宣導手段進而建立內化民眾正常的投資判斷的觀念呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3841.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3863.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
是我覺得這是我們所有政府努力的目標就像我們在剛剛講源頭控管非常重要剛剛委員也提到就是說我們比如說剛剛很多的這個詐騙廣告都是來自於一些平台那我們也積極的努力跟他們溝通那再來就是我們現在不斷的強調我們也透過未來很多的宣導希望民眾警覺性越來越高增加我們全民的防詐免疫力 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3864.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3872.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
據了解金管會和法務部已達成共識為加強監督虛擬資產業者在訂定專法前將先修改《洗錢防制法》虛擬資產業改採登記制未經登記就經營業的將會有刑罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3890.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3892.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
金融監督管理委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3910.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3925.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
慢慢的大家都肯認這個是一個未來必須要取得所謂的執照的這樣一個行業特別是我們很多的參考國際上很多國家都已經開始在做最近幾年這也是為什麼我們這次透過洗房辦法裡面採登記制來做這樣一個納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3928.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3949.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那個主委啊因為3月20號比特幣出現暴跌走勢今晚會當時還提出兩大的呼籲指出虛擬資產高度投機性且無內在的價值那境外平台未受國內主管機關的監理那我這個請民眾審慎來評估虛擬資產交易的風險 主委前主委黃天牧啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3957.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3975.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
在任的時候看得出金管會對虛擬資產的態度是保守而且不積極那我請問主委因為你剛上任對於虛擬資產業未來法制化之後金管會有沒有成為虛擬資產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3978.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4005.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
特許事業的主管機關呢?是,謝謝委員其實金管會已經被行政院指定為我們是對虛擬資產具有投資及交易工具的虛擬資產的那個主管機關主管機關所以說以後你們就是主管機關就是有些因為虛擬資產的範圍非常非常大還有就是它相關的所謂的類似的東西非常的多所以我們這已經先就重要的部分先做納管金管會、責務龐大也是我們現在的主政 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4005.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4011.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那你認為軍管會對這個行業的監督管理態度應該是開放還是保守呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4012.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4038.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
報告委員這其實上這兩個面向就像全世界各國大概都是先從洗錢防制來做管理但是當這個產業已經開始成型而且具有國際上面的這樣一個競爭的情況的時候其實台灣也要注意這樣的情況就是其實台灣過去有很好的科技實力假設這是一個未來很重要市場我們也要持續的關注所以未來專法的面向當然是以安全保護消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4039.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4041.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
主委,因為楊金榮總裁表示目前台灣央行對CBDC |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4050.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4074.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
還在研究的階段可能需要比較長的時間最少要3年以上他強調科技越進步你就要越小心那主委楊總裁強調比特幣等基本上屬性是虛擬資產而非貨幣央行本於職責對於投資人要提出警示那虛擬資產有漲有跌 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4078.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4079.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這個應該留意當中的風險那請問主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4083.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4110.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
國內數位貨幣有沒有金融中介的必要性其實這個謝謝委員其實我們現在來看我們除了這個虛擬幣以外另外還有一個穩定幣這是其實上它的屬性在各國不管在學理或實務上都有不同的見解不過現在慢慢的開始納管以後很多東西開始制度化開始逐漸成型我們也在觀察國際的趨勢來作為以後管理的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4110.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4138.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
主委如果數位貨幣脫軌金融的中介那有哪些的優點與缺點整個國內的環境適合哪種的模式比較適當這是一個謝謝委員就是主要是其實虛擬資產本身來講它絕對有它一些獨特的優勢但它的缺點也非常的多我想這個還要靠我們未來的整個眼鏡以及全世界的發展趨勢來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4139.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4164.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
主委因為以目前的狀況來看大多數政府的策略方向都是繼續保持法定貨幣的流通同時發展數位貨幣的生態那央行目前定位數位貨幣的傾向金融中介機構在間接金融架構中扮演資金 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4166.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4185.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
虛扭的角色那透過金融中介機構的運作可有效的降低資訊不對稱所引起的逆向選擇與道德風險的問題解決資金流向的阻礙所以說在市場上大部分的資金 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4187.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4196.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
龍通都是透過金融中介的機構那我請問主委現行的貨幣銀行的所有措施你認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4198.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4220.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
能不能一體適用在數位貨幣上面呢報告委員我想這個貨幣當然主政是中央銀行我不太方便評論就我個人的看法其實數位貨幣跟真的貨幣還是有非常大的距離有差別是不是例如數位貨幣有無銀行利息的產生要不要規範銀行管理費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4221.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4246.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
未來數位貨幣會不會與國際間的數位貨幣同步接軌?制度如果不同,那你認為有沒有相互流通的可行性呢?我們看國際數位幣的發展,除了我們現在數位幣還有Define,它衍生出來的很多的金融服務非常的多元不過現在都還要透過市場的測試才知道它未來的發展性 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4247.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4263.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我是希望說金管會在這方面應該要多多去了解重視因為你們站在金融的立場當然控管非常重要那尤其講實在話今天這個議題因為詐騙這個講實在話 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4269.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4286.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
臺灣讓人家成為是詐騙的王國而且那個一直在變這個很嚴重而且政府又拿不出更具體的辦法越騙越多人就受騙我們今晚會一定會努力要好好的去控管是沒問題謝謝謝謝林德夫委員質詢接著我們請吳秉樂委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4298.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4301.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
主席麻煩請金孔慧、彭主委有請彭主委喂你好彭主委早早有一句話叫做網路無國界就是現在這個世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4311.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4336.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
你只要上網你哪裡都可以去所以剛剛我看到你們的報告裡面說台灣的個人B商如果他沒有經過核准再經營將來是犯罪這是要納管那台灣有一些交易所這個我了解問題是要買的人、要交易的人他不在台灣交易啊他上網在全世界交易這個你有辦法管嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4338.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4362.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這個確實是一個國際上面的納管所以我們在《洗錢防制》有一個就是如果你在境外在國內要營業你要在境外要在國內落地他沒有要在台灣營業啊譬如說他是一個歐洲的或是一個美國的一個虛擬貨幣的交易所是你台灣的這個電腦的使用者自己上網去那邊跟他買那這個你要怎麼管呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4363.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4384.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
是要罰那個消費者嗎?罰那個買的人嗎?還是你可以罰到美國?罰到歐洲這樣子的交易所?確實在國界這個限制上對於我們這種網路上面的交易確實是一個一大挑戰這個不只是台灣所面對的問題我想全世界都是一樣的那所以這一方面你要怎麼處理呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4384.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4407.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以我們現在我們在策略上當然先從國內這部分我們一定要先納管那至於說國際上透過國際合作這部分我們可能再來處理那像比如說假設剛剛也有報告也有提到假設我們的金流流到海外去的話那我們應該怎麼跟國外的這些政府機關做一個合作這個確實是國際上應該要加強努力比如說我們希望透過未來國際組織一起來參與這個問題看怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4412.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4438.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個比特幣的這個詐欺或是洗錢的案例在全世界都非常的多而且金額非常的大那我以前也曾經跟之前的金管會主委談過這我的觀點比特幣的漲跌都是非常的巨額中間有兩次是政府機關的行為中國宣布它合法它就飆漲中國宣布它違法它就暴跌這樣經過兩次的沖洗 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4441.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4455.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以我一直講說這個東西喔遊戲規則的制定者不是台灣操縱者也不是台灣他原來最起碼最開始的時候為什麼會大量就被認為說是因為中國的高官要洗錢用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4456.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4476.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
所以這個比特幣才會有這麼大的交易量那你現在一個問題說因為網路無國界所以我如果上網路去買台灣的幣商要經營如果沒有合法將來依照法律你們現在修的法律它就是要違法這個我可以了解可是這能夠保護的也只有一小部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4477.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4501.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我不一定要在跟台灣的幣商買我可以上網全世界哪裡去弄啊所以這個是如何讓國人正確的認識這裡面有非常巨大的風險這也是一個很重要的工作喔因為現在全世界的潮流政府也不得已指定你們金管會作為這個主管機關會讓人家誤會說這個東西要合法了這個東西合法之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4507.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4534.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
一個最大的問題是台灣的民族性賺錢沒有人會感謝政府如果集體賠錢大家就圍你你主管機關嘛因為我們政府管得不好害我們這麼多人集體被騙、被害錢大家就去你那邊陳抗你要了解我們台灣有這樣特殊的民族性是 謝謝所以我是覺得這裡面隱藏的風險非常的大好 那話說回來從另外一個角度來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4535.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4546.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那既然要管理慢慢的慢慢的我現在不是講馬上很久的未來之後有沒有可能成立公家的交易所 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4549.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4568.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這個我們在國際上還沒有看到但是我們很多其實我們交易所大部分都不是政府在做包括我們現在證券也大家都不是對啦那我的意思是說就算不是至少是交易所吧類似證券交易所期貨交易所有沒有可能有沒有可能往這個方向走呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4569.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4585.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
現在以現在發展其實還蠻原始的還是自發展但是我們像這種都是全世界都在發展過程當中但是主委你要知道全世界主要的交易所就算是證券啊什麼其他的交易所很多國家也都不是公家在做的是的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4586.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4613.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
台灣在我來看台灣的證券交易所、期貨交易所或是說這個OTC因為有政府強力的主管、監管而且它是一個特許行業所以我覺得它還蠻上軌道的啊是 這也是我們未來努力的方向我事實上現在想像10年後、20年後有沒有可能因為這裡面還可能涉及到稅率還可能涉及到如何的揭示、如何的公告讓這大家能夠了解風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4615.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4643.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
等等這個 如果你把它一個正規化之後其實正規化也有正規化很多的好處啊是的 像比如說像台灣的交易所櫃買就是很好成功的例子是透過櫃買或是交易所對於一些在那邊交易的上市櫃公司進行所謂的管理跟控管都是一個非常非常好的模式好 當然所以這個未來也有可能朝這方向思考就是既然如果將來要把它納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4645.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4656.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那將來是不是設計一套制度當然我是指很多年後現在還開始在算是原始時代還在那邊摸索還在那邊搞但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4659.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4683.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
其實另外一方面虛擬資產的交易金管會之前也是一直採取正面的看法所以也要另外還有一個證券化的問題所以這個是將來我覺得如果朝這方面能夠制定完整的制度也不見得是不好啊是好那先請你回座我們請這個法務部徐次長跟警政署的這個黃副局長徐政策黃副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4686.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4694.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
委員長早兩位我所知道因為我來自法界現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4695.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4724.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
警界也好、檢察界也好甚至法院也好都為了這個詐欺欺犯罪多到這個程度痛不堪甚至有很多人當然這個是不是這個因素這是一個猜測因為詐欺欺犯罪太多了辦不完就有的人辦到暗賭勞刑上次不是有檢察官發生輕生的事件嗎責任感太大然後案子辦不完士林地檢嘛還是士林地院、司法官那如果是這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4725.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4730.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
到底有什麼方式可以降低這個詐欺的案件的這個量 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4732.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4760.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
報告委員之所以今天我們要動員所有的部會進來就是從源頭管制因為從源頭管制的話加強監管那很多的虛擬的人頭的才會減少那歹徒利用這些來擷取民眾的金錢那管道就會受到控制這是從源頭去那再來的話我們當然我們要我們司法單位要充分的合作案件數今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4761.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4780.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
的數量有比較減少嗎?還是增加更多?今年一到四月的案件量已經少了大概十幾...但是五月又上來了這個五月份的資料我還沒拿到市長還有副局長我覺得這裡面一個很大的問題是說現在網路上面這些廣告它的廣告它... |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4784.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4812.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
常常我舉個例子常常用名人誰越出名這個Meta上面就馬上就出現那個名人的這個股票投資群組等等這些的廣告那之前就一直有說可以跟這一些跨國的公司談條件談怎麼管理我跟你說韓國跟日本現在除了在國內提起訴訟之外還跑到美國去告Meta尤其是日本的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4814.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4817.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4842.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4857.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
對啦 但是這些跨國的大公司他也要鳥你嘛坦白講是這樣子啦台灣的法律他大到大到沒辦法形容你知道嗎落地國的法律他也不見得要遵守啊那當然之前一直跟他溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4858.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4887.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
有些效力如果真正要防止這個東西要拿出肩膀出來不能夠是因為他是國際的這個巨大的這個公司然後你們就對他不能夠提出什麼比較強硬的做法嗎我跟委員報告我想這個當然主責不是我們法務部是書發部今天我看到新聞出來了就是這些相關的業者已經提出所謂的日出條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4888.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4912.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
他們已經有感受到如果這個法律過的話其實對他們來講在某些程度裡面是有一些抑制的作用我希望大家一起努力不是只有我們在查緝而已各方面都要努力要從根源斷不然案件越來越多是壓垮整個司法體系司法體系的工作人員也是很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4913.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4937.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
每天查的案子都是類似的而且這個都有一風窩風的現象民國八十年我剛剛當法官的時候那時候刑事案件最多是西安美搭面跟千篤六合彩、大加勒所以都一死一死一死現在最多的應該就是詐欺案件了是所以大家努力吧是好 謝謝謝謝吳秉樂委員的諮詢接著我們請賴石堡委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4957.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4960.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
今天我們談到虛擬貨幣的管理虛擬貨幣現在有兩萬兩千多種那你要管哪一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4982.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4989.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
貸儲你要不要管貸購你要不要管冷錢包你要不要管也不能講一下你要管就放我用那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4990.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5013.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
核保委員就是我們現在剛剛在報告裡面我們有分階段來納管我們現在已經針對所謂我們所謂管制的範圍其實上有定他一定的範圍比如說他們在做之間的交換必別之間的轉換或是代為傳送之類這我們有明定現在的範圍當然沒有錯陳主委員講的這裡面這個所謂虛擬資產是一個還在演進中的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5017.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5034.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
還有包括他很多很多技術上比如說任何人他都可以發一個幣但是他也沒有價值這要市場來認定這也是我們常常看到很多詐騙集團他可以用來一個很重要的點所以這是我們未來的挑戰所以原則上以後什麼都管就對了是不是來我現在告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5036.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5059.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
112年就去年的時候臺灣高鐵法院舉報過座談他說金管會要管的是詐欺取財罪或者詐欺得利罪請問你是哪一個現在金管會所主管的範圍現在是按照我們現在《洗房法》裡面的法尊聲明這個是哪一個啊還是兩個都管 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5061.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5083.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
詐欺取財、或者就是詐欺把錢放進來、或者詐欺得利、詐欺之後去賺錢詐欺的部分應該是我們由那個民刑法來處理但我們現在金管會主政就是洗錢目前是以洗錢防制作為我們的那就比較偏詐欺得利啊是不是洗錢就洗錢違反洗錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5086.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5088.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
你現在第6月第7月講到階段一包括個人的避傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5112.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5116.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
要先向金管會完全洗錢防制、法尊、財政和從業那這個很明顯就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5127.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5147.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
他要取得這個洗錢的登記他必須要完備洗錢防制法上的要求好 但是你在第11頁有講到沒有一規定從事事業的VASP要可以行事責任那個人的幣商包、個人的錢包交易轉入黑市暗網交易你怎麼查 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5149.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5158.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
現在我們現在的話那個法律現在正在送在大院審議中是《洗錢防制法》的修正我們現在是根據《洗錢防制法》裡面我們現在是可以罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5159.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5187.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
的未來才會可以行責我們為了要加重這樣的一個處罰所以也希望說未來大院能夠支持這樣一個修正你案子送進來了嗎?應該已經送進來了對什麼時候送進來?這個我們是由5月初已經進到立法院叫什麼名字?《洗錢防制法》的修正修正草案?對經過過一段?沒有,《洗錢防制法》是法務部的主政對啊,法務部的啊好,那個市長要不要講一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5191.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5219.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
包委員,今年的5月9日已經送到大院而且已經出審剩下兩個條文兩個條文,就是第6條第5條好,我再請教金國外的彭主委那個Online Game的遊戲幣要不要報備現在我們遊戲幣現在很…很…那個朋友告訴我玩遊戲幣專門移動房子欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5223.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5240.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個容我去了解不過我們現在的話我們主要是管那個虛擬幣那遊戲幣我們現在是就我的理解現在是沒有在我們現在現行我現在告訴你我要出門以前還有人告訴我他就玩遊戲幣不到半年的時間賺了一棟房子這麼厲害去看也來啊這麼厲害好啦我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5251.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5276.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
你在哪裡?在哪裡?星光集團啊我沒有替他講話的意思喔在兩年前捷四堡已經被處罰了300萬保險局的局長在這裡不同的組委現在換一個組委又開始又來了兩年又保他他現在一一交保了組委、檢察官、大使、搜索 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5278.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5308.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那個政論節目昨天 噢 批一趴拉兩趴一兩趴都討論這個事情 他們就定調了說這個是政治辦案 那個法務部次長要不要解釋一下徐市長 政治力介入又復原到了 柯建民一直講說只要找六個 其餘來歸 鎖定民眾黨啊這裡面來講 吳東進就是吳世穎的爸爸鎖定他 那麼快 有沒有這個意思啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5308.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5319.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
保護委員我們檢察官辦案絕對是秉公處理不會有任何的政治利益介入我想這個是誤會那個案的話我不方不方便昨天柯文傑沒有一直講這個題題嗎一直這樣講檢察官依法辦理絕對是依法辦理這麼厲害每天都說要告訴我要起訴誰就起訴誰每天都政治指導還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5334.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5359.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
報告委員不會我知道你一定說不會這個彭主委你要不要解釋一下這個兩年前才罰了300萬怎麼現在開始又處理他呢報告委員局長講一下局長到底是兩人來發生什麼變化除了報告委員跑出來以後我不知道是什麼變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5361.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5371.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這應該是兩年前就已經...處罰了啊!對阿!準備要三百萬了!同意議題是阿!處罰不夠!因為刑事的部分是檢察官在辦的,我們並沒有介入所以兩年前脫落現在才起訴,所以現在才辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5384.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5384.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5415.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5433.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
你到現在為止還沒有看到你淪陷的跡象了經濟部長郭志輝就已經淪陷了一開始講和二和三要演繹我要吃到跟民進黨立委吃的飯總統他吃了一頓飯回來馬上改口都不要了我希望你 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5434.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5463.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
要扛起肩膀好 你是主委喔要令人尊敬喔你不要忽異政治啊你不要這樣聲音啊你們的諸位檢察官請問請問諸位檢察官要不要聽法務部的指揮要不要請問 市長 市長許市長要不要法務委員 沒有沒有對不要跟你報告不用不用不要跟你報告是 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5464.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5489.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
好那個法務部的長官請回答最後一個我再請教一下你保險修改行政命令了原來7月要生效就是我買一個比如說我住院做治療花了30萬但是我買了三個保單一個10萬一個20萬一個30萬再過去我都可以申請喔用副本就可以申請我就可以拿60萬回來阿你們體恤 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5493.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5495.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
其實報告委員 可能委員你有點誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5515.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5535.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
主要是因為其實保險有個非常基本的原則叫損害填補原則因為我們過去發覺到有很多人他可能因為買了多張副本理賠而且也引發了上次有個案件檢察官也直接的指責說為什麼我們的商品可以一個人他可以取得這麼高的理賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5535.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5550.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那我們為了落實保險業的損害填補原則所以我們過去呢第一階段我們曾經規定說最多只能買三張還是有這樣的問題所以我們經過討論以後呢我們就採損害填補原則希望未來都以正本理賠回歸正軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5551.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5568.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
當然我們也聽到業者的意見認為說這個東西可能需要更多的調適所以保險局在面對業者討論的時候也迅速的做出回應說我們願意給你們一個時間來做個調整我想這部分我們一定會讓市場讓消費者安心主委你這說的到底還是體貼產險商啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5574.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5589.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我怕他們損失太多這個生病的他難道願意生病嗎我故意去生一個病賺這個錢搞得人家這樣但是我去買保單我就買了啊我保費交了他可能生病一年才生一次給他賺一輸而已給他贏一輸你也給他賺 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5591.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5618.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
有時候拿回來還要補身體還要幹什麼的你們這樣子不可以給他就報告委員其實我們商品有很多類型剛剛規範就是只有十之十富像比如我們商品還有很多定額型的商品像比如我們最常見的防癌保險你可能一離來他也不管醫療費用他就直接給付一個金額也可以滿足很多消費者的需求其實商品是多元只是十之十富發生了一些好 最後就用時間到頭了謝謝委員其實問題沒有沒有問題最後一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5621.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5647.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那過去買的咧我們不追溯我們都是新的商品才會開始所以過去買的我買3張我花30萬我可以領60萬照理但是以後就沒有了以後我們新的商品裡面我們希望他都以正本理賠如果你選10支10副都以正本但是如果你有其他需求可以選定額幾副的商品應該也沒有問題謝謝好 謝謝謝謝賴司保委員的質詢接著我們請賴會委員委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5659.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5669.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
謝謝主席有請金管會主委還有銀行局莊局長有請彭主委、莊局長委員好是 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5671.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5690.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
主委早安主委我想今天針對的就是我們的虛擬資產這個議題我來跟你做一個討論我想虛擬資產的一個洗錢的一個涉案其實在國內我們現在看得到的就是說在檯面上就是在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5692.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5714.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
9月份的時候就是碧安協助我們處理一個案子那這個是2億那顯然就是說這個是目前我們看得到的最大的一筆數字那虛擬資產成為詐騙集團熱門的一個洗錢的工具其實已經是好幾年了那這好幾年顯然大家都沒有比較好的一個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5715.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5735.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那甚至就是說我們政情局那個副局長在那個九月份的時候他有講到他就是說不是不是在九月份講到他去年發布了一個指導的原則他希望業者在這個基礎上要自立那逐步發展其他的一個比較政策面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5737.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5745.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
委外研究報告在今年9月會完成期末報告本席看到在虛擬貨幣有22000多種的虛擬貨幣裡有沒有比較好的管理方式? |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5757.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5785.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
現在我們就是因為這個是全世界都面臨到這樣的一個挑戰比如說像我們看我們鄰近像比如說香港、新加坡他們是去年才開了納管大家的做法都差不多都是先從洗錢防制開始所以我們覺得說現在我們也是按部就班的來做因為畢竟這是一個在演化中的產業我們也希望說先針對比如說現在一些主流的幣來進行管理一個演化中的一個產業你在明年六月你要把它送到立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5787.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5814.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們希望能夠提草案對是在這裡我想就是跟你探討了就是說我們要給虛擬資產一個合法的地位嗎這個是本席今天要跟你探討的在我們那個有形的一個資產裡頭其實我們在進行黃幣的討論的時候我們已經面臨到了很大的一個困境就是說我們現有的銀行現有的一個資產其實我們在黃幣打炸的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5815.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5827.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這個我們都已經是很多的一個弊端都呈現出來我們無法可管那相對的數位時代來臨了我們這些年長的長輩反而成為這個數位化的一個弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5830.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5849.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個看起來是說我用一個案例就是說這個是在3月9號他所做的一個報導一個70多歲的老太太他3月初才跟保險公司開了一個網路的一個服務結果他7張保單在一個夜內都被解約領走了有的被拿去值戒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5850.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5869.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那有的就是做其他的用途那合計的金額上千萬結果後來這個老太太發現不對了她跑到保險公司去她去跟她這個要回保單的恢復原狀當然她是遭到詐騙集團的一個冒名的一個申辦可是保險公司拒絕她了 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5871.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5884.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這個我們有法可管嗎?無法可管所以我們很遺憾發生這個案子啦不過就是這個假設是詐騙集團我們現在一定會看看保險公司有沒有責任那再來就是說如果他是一個詐騙人 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5901.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5919.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
現在有形的一個金融產業都已經是環不勝環了那現在怎麼辦呢那我們只看到說金管會定期會在公告詐騙手法放在你的官網上讓民眾來參閱那警政署也會在社區做很多環詐的一個宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5920.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5943.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
你看喔,我們已經花了那麼多的一個力氣北京這幾天回到地方去跑那個端午節的一個活動我常常就看到了警政署就是在每一個我們的派出所所長他們都到現場去做詐騙的一個宣傳所以我們都告訴那一些長輩告訴那些現有社區的這一些人出來了我們就告訴他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5944.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5969.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
你們要怎麼樣怎麼樣只要有跟錢的相關的你們就是要謹慎好那甚至就是在銀行裡頭的零貴都被騙了那更何況是數位呢那前警政署長他曾經講在2023年他的一個記者會上他提到了光是2022年他的報案量就有三萬多件可是僅有攔截八千多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5970.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5985.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
你看這個不符合比例啊不符合比例啊所以我還是再一次請問主委我們要給虛擬貨幣這一個專法給它一個合法的地位嗎?你個人的看法是怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5988.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6013.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
謝謝委員我充分理解委員剛剛提的顧慮我們現在就是沒有專法的情況之下他有這麼多的狀況那當然比如說我們當我們給予一個執照我們主管機關就要非常非常的謹慎因為也代表我們的承擔我們必須要把這些把它導正化所以這是當然是有個兩難但是我覺得我們整體評估而言政府責無旁貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6014.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6038.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
要擔起這些管理的責任但是對於不法的我們要嚴重於打擊那你有辦法管嗎?你的人力有辦法管嗎?你看銀行人員不正當的挪用這個款項的案件都頻傳了那你主詐的同時你怎麼避免內部人的不法行為那你可以抓他這個你還可以抓他這個你還管得到可是在悉尼貨幣合法之後貨幣商有辦法跟營養合法合規嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6041.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6064.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個就是我們未來努力的目標剛剛委員跟大家報告就是說我們希望法制逐漸完備比如說我們先採《洗錢防制法》登記制登記制某種程度你要滿足我們現在全國一致的洗房標準我們要合法合規合法合規我來追幾個案子那個銀行局局長在這一個就是天空塔在 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6066.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6088.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
天空塔的弊案持續在發酵的時候那我在這裡請教你我們有繼續追蹤就是說這一個天空塔這一個弊案就是說蔡永毅他在放貸的過程裡頭他有沒有介入他有沒有在核貸的時候有沒有特別的寬鬆有沒有就是說去脅迫我們的同仁來配合呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6090.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6115.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
你們有查到這樣子嗎報告委員這個案子的話其實就是報導已經開始揭露的時候其實我沒有請因為兆豐銀行是主辦行所以其實我沒有請兆豐銀行提出報告那依照兆豐銀行的報告來看的話他目前一切都還是在正常的狀況之下那至於他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6117.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6137.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
內部放貸的過程當中他目前也認為說查核對結果是沒有問題是沒有,好,這個局長你回答我是沒有,你看可能是他認為你們查不出來他還可以再掛一個就是說前兆豐總經理蔡永毅他還可以掛一個資深合夥人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6137.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6167.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
關於一個就是這一個蔡永毅他在掏空的嫌疑人邱冠興就是他的盛景公司他還可以掛一個資深的合理人顯然就是他認為你們抓不到嘛那抓不到為什麼會有這麼大的一個弊案啊那相對的好局長我再請問你就是對於租賃公司這一個無牌的高利貸的這個租賃公司那銀行能不能逐筆去檢查啦你有追嗎這個案子你有追嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6168.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6190.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
請說明報告委員分成兩個部分啦就剛剛委員關心的那個部分基本上還是銀行的放貸啦所以不是主任公司那如果回到主任公司的話那個是不是有你是一直在強調啊就是說他拿著合法的銀行的錢然後去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6191.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6205.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
超高利的高利貸超過22倍那你有沒有足比去檢查顯然到這個時候我已經問了好幾次了你們也沒有辦法正向的在回答我好 局長你的人夠不夠呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6207.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6224.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
你的銀行的內控的一個機制裡頭又要灌金融詐騙又要灌這個融資租賃又要灌洗錢防制又要灌貸錢貸後那到底你的錢那個你的人夠不夠你的人到底夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6225.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6250.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
報告委員謝謝委員關心確實是後來必須要規範或者是要管理的範圍確實擴大不過這個部分的話其實行政院也在關心這件事情所以在元額增加上面也請我們再考慮增加元額要增加多少這個我想在這裡跟金管會主委做一個這個探討啦美國年準會它 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6251.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6270.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
有2.4萬人他處理3.3億人的人跟事跟物他的貨幣他的貸款可是相對的我們央行裡頭有866個人銀行局才212個人那如果照這個數字來算的話我想這個銀行局也應該要有1600個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6272.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6281.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以銀行局的人太少了嘛那你太少了你還要他去管這麼多的事情那當然是成效一定不好的啊那你怎麼改進呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6282.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6310.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這個我們當然謝謝委員的關心這個確實是應該是大部分的公務機關面臨到的問題特別是金管會其實蠻嚴重因為社會對金管會有很多肯定也期待希望我們把很多新興的行業納管當然是期待啊因為我們的錢會被騙啊那你的人不夠啊你怎麼去管控他啊你獅子銀行的問題沒有辦法解決的時候你還要再處理你的虛擬資產你有那麼大的一個能量嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6312.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6332.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
現在確實我們現在人力上是非常吃緊不過即便在這樣的情況之下我們要繼續被騙沒有沒有我們還是會持續的努力但是我們也希望說未來能夠爭取我跟你講他在未來虛擬貨幣這一個專法那個通過的時候他們會做了很多很多的一個宣傳欸這是政府認定的喔這是國家認定的喔你們的錢我們這裡賭注沒問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6335.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6346.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
對 這個市場行為的監控我們一定會加強我們就要努力了市長 主委先補上銀行局的人員吧這個是快速你可以做的好 謝謝 謝謝我們也來努力謝謝 謝謝委員關心謝謝賴會員委員質詢接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6359.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6364.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
主委要不要喝一口水?那我就繼續請主委,謝謝召委主委好,主委辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6374.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6392.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
剛上任一個月因為我今天問題比較多我就直接進入我的正題主委我要先問一下房價高漲的問題您就直接看我的圖表很快就可以了解無論是從我們四大房價的指數從政大永慶、信義、清華安富包括內政部的住格房價 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6393.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6417.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我們都可以看到這個房價從這四大家分析的房價指數都可以看到房價又創了歷史的新高那目前我們央行分析房價高漲主要有幾個原因是臺灣出口的這個數字明顯回升那第二個就是股市兩萬多點經濟到最好的時刻所以大家都 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6418.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6441 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
口袋裏面錢還不少造成房價的新高第三個原因是財政部的新清安政策催出自住的需求那前兩個是經濟好、景氣好大家口袋有錢房價上升是合理的那第三個就是新清安的政策那媒體有針對於新清安房貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6441.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6457.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
有四個後遺症我要跟主委分享就是說因為它的四項政策內容主委你應該熟悉嘛新清安政策我如果20歲我買房我到我用新清安政策的話我到60歲才需要緩緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6458.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6459.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那我也關注到 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6480.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6504.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
新清安政策第一季從20到35歲房貸族的年增率增加了48件我從去年2023年第4季因為新清安政策是從去年開始第4季總共有5.4萬件房貸那在新清安政策裡面就佔了1.8萬件佔了三分之一那今年的第一季總共有5.8萬件那總共 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6508.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6531.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
總共房貸的年增率增加39%所以從這些數據上可以看到新青安的助攻之下就是說年輕人買房的確非常踴躍就從我們的數據上可以顯示主委你同意我剛才講的這四大後遺症是新青安政策造成的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6533.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6556.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個我覺得今晚會所主政的範圍可能也不在這裡不過我覺得很多媒體或是在外部的在討論的問題不過確實大家對高房價是有很大的感覺那剛剛講新清安也是政府照顧年輕人的一個做法是我同意對因為很多人是爸爸媽媽幫忙買是的對我同意所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6559.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6580.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
但是主委我還是要問因為明天就是6月13號央行明天就要開理監事會那我也看到媒體報導就是說預期會有第六波的打防那跨部會無論是選擇性央行會用選擇性的信用的管制也好或者是我看到媒體所下的標 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6581.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6599.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
會用跨部會的來打防特別是內政部也提到說如果有第6波升息的話那後面可能就不再做利率的補貼所以這個整個我從媒體上看到的還有跨部會後續的動作我們現在是又要進行下一波的打防了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6602.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6617.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這個有關這個房價政策不是金管會的主政金管會在意的是我們現在這些銀行們他們在放貸這些不動產相關事業的風險有沒有過高那我們是在根據銀行法72之2條裡面的規範來進行管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6619.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6640.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
主委我同意你的說法就是說股市好經濟好房價可能自然就高當然我覺得合理的房價當然也很重要房價高但是我覺得合理的房價當然也很重要但是政府更應該注意的是我們整個房地產的狀況到底是不是它的體質是不是屬於一個健康的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6642.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6668.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我們現在無論是房價高漲也讓住宅建築放款預比達到14兆那我昨天就看到我們無論是本國的住宅貸款建築貸款其實都在0.06%到0.03%那其實如果按照我們整體的預放比的話只有0.17%其實好像也不是算太高所以我最近看到你們新聞稿也一直在提到說我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6670.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6691.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
購屋的貸款餘額已經突破10兆元的大關我們目前無論是建築、購屋跟房屋的修繕餘額在我們整體銀行的整體的放款達到37.21%所以我想請問一下部長、主委我們整體銀行局在開記者會提到35% |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6696.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6697.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
三十五%是否比較合理的數字?預放款整體的比例? |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6712.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6740.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
你解答就好了是不是要用35%它是不是37.21%是不是太高報告委員這個37.21%我覺得可能是統計的基礎上的差異那你們是用35來做基準是不是我們目前查到就是那什麼是一個合理的數字因為35是目前的數字可是我們今天來看的話最近這一年其實是112年12月底也是去年年底的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6740.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6767.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
他的比率是高於35點多其實這個我們只是在顯示說集中度的問題那我必須要跟為什麼是35做基準點為什麼不是36為什麼不是33為什麼不是30這個不是基準點這個基本上只是在顯示說他的比率是這樣那我剛剛說的超過35也是去年12月底的數字所以你們是希望他接近35 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6769.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6789.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我想局長意思就是說他看過去一整年大概都維持在35%左右雖然有略高一點比如最高點不過35.38%最近都是一直都維持在35%他只是描述現況好主委那所以行政院並沒有對於第六波打防整體跨部會是一個共識對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6790.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6798.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們現在就是我們還是雖然你不主導但是你也是其中的角色之一我們現在還是做我們金管會該做的事現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6799.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6807.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
主委我不為難您主委因為我今天時間不多我還是要問一下現在最後兩分鐘我還是要問一下虛擬平台我們現在詐騙的問題詐騙的議題其實剛剛前面賴委員也有問到其實它最大的問題就是無內在的價值波動很高還有平台有它的風險在 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6822.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6840.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
無論是剛才我們有提到就是說VASP的業者我們現在要讓他成立一個平台但是包括ACE的交易在110年就有一個個案他的詐騙金額高達8億上週開庭的時候再壓主席人還非常囂張的比業那個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6843.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6860.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
就是說主委我們覺得詐騙的問題我們要控管平台但是他也要成立一個工會我們未來你看他都已經這麼囂張已經在押開庭還這麼囂張未來我們的角色怎麼樣去做監管就是說管控或管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6861.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6876.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
謝謝委員這確實是我們很大的挑戰不過他個人行為我們不以置評但是對於未來個人弊傷剛剛不管是我們的報告還有法務部的報告都有特別講我們就是為了針對這件事情社會的期待我們在《洗錢防制法》裡面也參考國際的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6877.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6902.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那未來平台成立之後我們有什麼樣更好的管理方式嗎現在的話我們馬上假設經過大院通過我們《洗錢防制法》的話我們就可以對這些個人弊傷可以刑責這樣根據我們的預估應該會產生很大的嚇阻作用會回歸到一些正軌去就是說你必須要是來做洗房登記那洗房登記的標準就必須要完成我們滿足我們《洗錢防制法》的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6903.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6917.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那這樣我們在到處看得到的這些所謂的個人幣商應該就會受到一些的控制以上好 各位那個剛才賴會員委員也提到說用人的部分因為我有看到你們在爭財有關於我們的虛擬的資產兼領元我們首度計算6.8萬元以上的月薪我們也在找人 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6927.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6953.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這些人找到了沒?因為我們要設立專法這些人,6.8萬人算高嗎?找這樣的專業,算高嗎?謝謝委員,我們很努力很努力地找我們要,第一階段要三個找到兩個找到兩個,三個夠不夠?當然不夠當然不夠,還要再繼續找因為我們有分階段地給我們人力但是今年的三個我們大概就是,再努力再找詐騙虛擬平台的管理是 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6956.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6957.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
《新光人壽》 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6972.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7000.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
賴氏寶委員問的其他的問題就是說對於不管是新售它是家族的問題還是金金未來併購的問題合併的問題我還是要請教就是說5月16跟5月24我們分別收到三商售跟新售提交的整體的體質改善計畫那現在已經到6月中了那我們現在對於金管會對於這兩家的改善計畫評估好不好能不能接受還是持續的改善呢對他最近送進來兩份報告滿不滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7002.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7010.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
呃...我們...行手跟三...可不可以因為現在是保安局正在審查中我們可以請保安局局長跟您回覆,謝謝好,檢...檢...檢...檢...檢...局長請檢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7013.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7028.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
法務委員他們的報告我們目前審查之後有跟公司約時間再做一些溝通那溝通完畢有沒有達到及格還是說還是不及格成績還是那個方向到底是什麼他們有提出一些具體的政治計畫那我們有在評估說到底他的可行性還有他的時程請他們再更具體一點如果沒問題的話我們就會核定給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7041.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7053.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那我這樣聽起來好像是你目前看來是滿意的再補充一些資料就可以了有一些方向上他們確實有提出來但是具體時程是不是能夠達到一定的標準這個部分我們還在溝通你還需要多少時間我們才會知道結果因為我們已經有跟他們約時間談了啦所以應該我上次就沒關係你跟他說當時我才可以再問一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7067.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7091.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
應該這個月就應該要完成溝通六月底就要完成溝通好因為這兩天新秀的新聞星光相關的新聞非常多我在最後30秒他現在新秀已經在星光金控已經在做信心增資包括公司債的部分這兩天的新聞在市場上會不會受到衝擊然後我們如果受到衝擊我們金管會的立場跟做法到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7091.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7109.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
就以法律面來看這兩個是獨立的事件但是我覺得可能有些人你覺得會不會受到市場會不會受到衝擊我覺得心裡面會受到事件影響不過我們評估過在法律上兩個是獨立的事件對不起你剛剛說的是法律面怎麼樣是獨立的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7110.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7127.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
是圖利的事件是兩個獨立的事件是兩個獨立的事件所以你覺得短期會受到衝擊不會有影響這個是我們講心裡面的部分我們沒辦法預期但是我剛才講說就法律面我們一個是他的增資計畫一個是大股東的行為這兩個是分開的好的好的好謝謝主委的回應謝謝委員謝謝委員謝謝李恩秀維的諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7145.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7147.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
現在請郭國文召委謝謝主席有請彭金龍主委請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7159.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7182.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
委員好 主委好 主委剛剛我聽您回答李燕秀委員的這個答覆有關於這個新光金前董事長吳東進的部分今天早上最新的消息他是以議員交保本席不是要問你案情我向你對個案不評論我尊重但是事件總有前因後果因為之前金管會有處罰過 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7184.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7202.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這次也是金管會駐會檢察官移送本席就要請教這件事情當中我想請問一下到底爆發這件事情有人就說這肯定是內部人所提供的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7203.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7225.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
一來可能會加速新興合併的作用二來也有可能達到延緩增資的效果雖然剛剛你講說不同的法律面本席同意但是事件就是有前因後果就會有連帶的影響關係就這兩個可能性主委您的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7227.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7245.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個案子我先就第一個問題先回答委員就是這個案子的成因我想在過去我們在檢查的金融檢查是我們蠻例行性的活動檢查完畢以後呢我們就會根據這個檢查的意見比如說這裡面可能我們認為會涉犯到刑責的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7246.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7266.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
判決行政機關的主政他們就認為有具體的話我們就移給他們我們就不會再當然他們會有他們剪掉的一定的時間至於說至於什麼時候發動這完全跟金管會沒辦法過問我想這件事情那個時程上面我們是沒辦法去VASP的案子你手中還有幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7268.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7287.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這部分的話我們可以請那個檢察局局長檢察局局長張局長待會有時間拜一下那後果後果這兩件事情的後果剛剛就比如說我想這個過去在星光金也好台新金也好也針對這個兩家合併在媒體上也在他們一些的動作上也有做一些發布那大家當然會很多臆測我想我做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7289.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7305.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這個金管會主委我不會去臆測這個之間的關聯性但是我們都會密切注意到政治有沒有可能延緩本席直接問他這個政治計畫剛才那個局長已經說明過我們正在審核就是照常運行不會延緩不會受到此事件影響合併會不會加速 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7308.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7333.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
合併的話我們有一定的程序就是比如說我們合併的方法有很多種法律上很多的架構上他要一定的程序跟申請的過程所以一件按照行政程序處理不會受到影響?就我們就是依法行政的角度來講的話我們會考慮各種各種的因素但是我們不會因為某些案件而做一些法規上的調整那你稍作休息張子昊局長你手頭上還有多少案子? |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7336.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7337.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
主委另外同樣一個案件我就就教於您 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7354.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7379.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
今年1月30號這個移送是不是金管會移送?臺中商業到底是新北地檢署主動偵辦還是金管會移送這個案子?各位請檢察局長是不是這個案子?同樣的案件啊對我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7381.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7396.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我的印象是新北已經先有案子了我們把案子就移送給他了是由新北地檢署這個主動偵辦嘛那顯然不是金管會移送嘛那為什麼這兩個案子相差這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7398.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7407.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
主委你可能要了解清楚喔你剛上任喔我不會太過苛責啦但是顯有嬉笑啦你看看1月30號請訴之後2月1號你們就開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7411.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7436.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
一千兩百萬掏空案總共是十億而這兩天你們前天才公布說今年前五月銀行、證券、保險、上市櫃公司總共開罰九千八百九十萬其中銀行最多銀行局最多銀行局當中金額最高的就是台中商銀很巧齁有沒有很巧一切都發生的很巧 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7438.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7461.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這跟委員報告就是因為減掉機關要發動其實我們沒辦法控制我說這時間點有沒有很巧嘛主委這我沒辦法評論是不是巧合這一天起訴隔天你們就開罰沒有很巧嗎本席強烈建議你最好先瞭解清楚啦外面都說這可能是金管會在捕破網啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7464.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7488.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我們再了解再跟委員報告我不希望再看到這麼巧的事件再發生啦主委但是我會持續關心第二件也是最近吵得沸沸揚揚這一個呢當初啊這個國泰金啊最大的股東萬寶開發嘛他拿到全家現在第二大股東說要搶全家三席董事喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7489.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7510.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
第一個我要請教主委這也沒有牽扯到違反產經分離的原則第二個當初萬寶開發取得全家的股權的時候有強調存財務投資如果要派董事的話只派董事的話會跟金管會溝通這兩點就叫主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7514.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7538.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
謝謝委員其實我們在過去常提到產經分離產經分離的概念我們如果落實在我們的法規上有沒有違反這件事情主要是我先跟委員說明一下產經分離是一個概念它不是一個法律的規定這個概念落實在我們兩個主要的法規上面一個就是說比如說金融機構的負責人不可以去兼任其他的非金融機構負責人 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7540.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7557.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
金融機構投資、像金融公司投資非金融相關事業的股權不可以超過一定的比例比如說5%像金融公司他用這樣的方式來達到這個至於說產金分離是一個大家的概念其實產金分離的概念並不是說強制那這個案子是幾%? |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7560.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7588.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這個部分主要是萬寶是國泰金控的大股東他不是我們納管的所謂的金融機構這有延伸性啊主委但是他是一個大股東是沒錯所以說我們也有關心這件事情這個部分剛剛就至於說未來怎麼做的話我想說這個那局長這邊有關這個部分可不可以請局長再有沒有跟你溝通啊指派董事有沒有跟你溝通啊莊局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7589.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7617.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
報告委員 剛剛委員說的都對啦因為其實去年的時候我們就有找他來溝通對他確實告訴我們說因為他們沒有指派董事對現在又指派啦對 那所以我們當時是說如果您有任何要指派董事的時候要事先跟我們 讓我們知道因為當初就認為說他沒有指派董事其實就產經分離的精神而言其實是符合的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7618.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7645.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那現在可是如果說就產經分離你也知道全家有很多ATM嗎將來它如果砍敗在一起呢這請問一下有沒有分離啊對這應該就是就是算是利害關係人的利害關係人的交易可是利害關係人的交易在我們的不管是金控法或者是銀行法裡面其實只是要遵守那個利害關係人的程序而已局長我慎重提醒啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7646.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7650.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
主委我必須肯定你這次分四個階段而且你態度說要修法講得非常明確而且你也把本席長期以來說要說差異化管理都納入了這個本席都予以肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7668.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7693.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
但是對有一個部分的廣度監管的部分我還是覺得你稍前保守而剛剛談到的這個他慮的部分本席不討論太多我談自律的部分明天就要成立了工會嘛 對不對對 是在成立工會當中我要問你的之前的王牌畢竟都有潛入一些弊案甚至畢竟的這個營運長還被收邀王牌也是如此類似這種這兩家都在25家裡面欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7694.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7707.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
你這兩家你要怎麼處理你有沒有暫停停止其營業內容你有沒有要求其撤銷其原來的這個法治聲明你有沒有做任何行政處分有沒有我看都沒有欸他們還會明天要籌組工會聽說畢竟還要當理事長欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7714.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7738.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
你不覺得這很奇怪嗎你本來法尊聲明就是要讓他們洗白給他們良民證講白點就這樣子這個剛剛那個涉犯那個事件是他們的公司的前負責人當然我們也很關注明天他們大概就是法人啊 同一法人啊工會成立以後我們也是我們開始納管的很重要的步驟 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7739.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7757.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
主委 我提醒你喔 工會的成員以後是要訂定次率規範欸是的次率規範很關鍵欸是沒錯 這次我們也非常非常關注如果一群啊 沒有洗白 有all day的業者的話 占的比例比較高你期待他弄出什麼樣的次率規範啊 主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7758.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7780.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我請教你自律規範也要報主管機關來備查當然啊可是他文來文往他那個規範來規範去就是很小的面積的自我規範自律程度不足你不是管理上也很麻煩很困擾所以你要跟他講白我這一張良民證要發給你可以但是你如果犯了什麼錯良民證我就馬上可以收回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7781.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7795.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這個我們會納入考慮就是說這部分未來自立規範的規定我們現在有初步的架構就是我們前面有頒布的指導原則這幾個原則其實就是國際上面納管VASP很重要的幾個原則我們希望充分的落實到這個自立規範裡面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7797.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7820.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
你寫了八點你寫了八點我本席都有在看這原則都要一一納入而且要嚴格執行第二個你現在都是以國內的業者為主啦國內的業者為主剛剛我就是要問你一個很大的一個問題廣度監管你最好他stand by的還有61家的部分能夠納管的部分這避免檢察官持續在抱怨的只有入刑的考量這裡頭有兩個一個關鍵點 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7822.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7848.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
第一個我們現在大部分國內的這個消費者所交易的對象都是還是國際的這個平台啊對不對你下一步有沒有要納入國際的平台的可能性這也在我們的這個法規範圍之內但是他一樣要滿足我們現在的要求對如果有國際國外的業者你也不排斥嘛對不對這我們在法規裡面就已經都有規範因為你如果納入國外的這個B商的話你至少形成一個規範嘛以後國外的B商來這邊的話有一個遊戲規則嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7851.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7866.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
落地就歸本國的監理範圍裡面最後我問你一點主席站起來最後一點金管會有沒有可能對這個必殺有沒有可能採取類似像鏈系交易、炒股還有包括擔任投顧的這些行為做一定程度的行政調查有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7868.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7892.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
這個齁 我們在那個專法裡面我們再來針對業務行為在這個規範因為我們現在初步就是洗錢防制的概念來處理對 如果說將來在執法的規範上有多一個行政調查的話或許啊 這樣會比較妥適一點啦謝謝委員 我想說在未來專法的時候我們可以來考慮對 用行政權進行規範的話將來的整個司法權的這個承擔的程度也比較不會那麼過度勞累啦我有充分的轉達齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7893.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7906.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這一個漸清改的意見也請政次能夠回去說明一下好謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝我們結束郭國文召委的執行好接下來我們請王洪威委員好謝謝主席我先請彭主委有請彭主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7929.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7952.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那我想請問一下因為在國內的這個詐騙集團非常有名的IMB它曾經不止一次的參展就參加我們的FinTech所以呢造成很多的投資人物以為IMB是一家 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7954.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7972.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
合法而且具有前景、具有投資潛力的一家公司那個時候我們踢爆這件事情之後當時金管會有發布聲明那個聲明就把它推給這個Fintech的舉辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7974.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7986.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
是這個金融延續院還有什麼金融總會等等之類的說對這樣的人這樣的一個詐騙集團混入Fintech予以嚴厲譴責然後呢然後就沒有了然後就沒有了那所以我想請問一下因為主委現在剛剛接任 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7996.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8021.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個照片呢你可以看到那個時候是顧立雄他當時啊當主委的時候這個IMB這個就是整個的那個會場的狀況在後面開心跟我們的主委合照那當然這種照片因為他最喜歡跟這些大人物合照照了之後呢就會傳給他的這些投資人所以我想請問主委那麼我們這一次的FinTech能不能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8024.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8051.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
確切地避免像這樣的詐騙集團在裡面魚沐混珠謝謝王委員我想我們當然不希望這類似的案件發生我們會在未來舉辦這個活動的時候記取教訓好好的來避免這件事情的發生所以因為你們是指導單位嘛那麼對於這些主辦單位是不是應該科以他們責任啊發生這種事情很難看吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8052.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8052.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
主委請回法務部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8086.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8099.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
有關於反詐因為我們的檢調一直都是第一線的辦案人員當然法部也非常希望能夠在這些新型的犯罪形態洗錢的形態能夠得到一些經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8102.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8123.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
所以你們從去年開始呢就辦了很多的研討會各地方檢察署都有辦各樣的講座那基本上呢主要也是針對虛擬貨幣因為大家都覺得這是新型態的但是啊這個法務部主要的合作的單位就是幣安那個次長知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8130.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8144.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那我時間要暫停啊他現在在問啊不是法務部找的是那個檢查機關找的是檢查機關找的那法務部都不知道啊那時間暫停一下今天什麼檢察司也有來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8146.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8164.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
來 副市長來因為如果市長沒關係啊 市長還是可以站上去啊你還是督導為什麼要今天要問這個問題好 今天可以看到這麼多的這個跟BIE一起合作的這些研討會好 我們來看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8166.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8190.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
其實這個是在國際上他們比較了解虛擬貨幣他們覺得不能理解的是為什麼幣安在全球惡名昭彰在很多的國家裡面幣安從創辦人開始到他們在各地其實都被判刑因為他們就是涉及相關的洗錢他們是國際性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8194.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8219.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那結果台灣呢?真是是不是幫他們洗白呢?如同剛才那個我們那個趙薇所說的一位權力工會幫一些可能有問題的我們的這些這個虛擬貨幣業者來洗白我們是在國際上洗白他們看到的時候都覺得眼珠都掉下來了好在美國那個創辦人趙長鵬 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8221.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8239.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
他事實上還被關而且被罰款的金額極為龐大在加拿大也是一樣被罰款600萬加幣在印度也是一樣被印度指控他們這些交易所是違反洗錢相關的法規所以請問一下我們為什麼要找幣安 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8245.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8271.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
報告委員就是說法務部不是那個弊案虛擬資產的那個監理機關那就我們了解是就是檢查機關還有那個刑事警察局的部分因為就是畢竟這是一個新興的一個犯罪的手法所以呢就是有要讓檢查所以找這個在國際知名的相關洗錢犯罪的集團來教我們怎麼樣防治洗錢因為那個虛擬資產我們有調取那個金流跟交易資料的一個必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8272.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8293.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
所以我們就是跟國內還有國外的交易所必須有這個合作的管道要跟他們調取資料那這個部分就是幣安這邊有有些案件當中有協助檢查機關就是調取相關的這個交易資料所以呢所以你們要繼續跟他們合作嗎我在這邊您指出說在國際上他的裁罰不斷你今天你去打一個幣安立刻出現詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8295.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8320.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
你去Google只要打錯幣安就立刻出現詐騙所以我們還要繼續跟他們合作嗎報告委員就是我們指的是只有調取資料的部分像那個就是交易所的部分我們必須建立一些管道才能夠查詢跟調取資料那這個部分對於檢警在偵辦相關的這個詐欺的犯罪當中我們一定要透過幣安才能夠調取這些相關的資料喔它是其中一個交易所它是國外的一個交易所 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8321.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8346.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
你除了調取資料之外然後你還有跟他做一些研討會啊你們不要再丟臉了好不好真的在世界各國都罰他重罰他還把他的那個什麼創辦人關起來結果我們還繼續的合作然後告訴我們說我們要調資料還要透過幣安那我們法務部在這個國外的一些一些合作都是白做的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8347.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8348.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
你們根本就做錯了 到現在還嘴硬 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8369.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8393.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
停止跟幣安合作停止在這種國際上丟臉的行為你現在做法是說因為他是在境外詐騙他還沒有在台灣詐騙啊所以你在台灣給他洗白囉這不就是不折不扣的洗白而且透過我們的政府透過我們的檢調單位透過我們地方的地檢署你看我剛講說有這麼多的包含拜會啦包含這些活動包含研討會 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8395.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8421.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
結果台灣 台灣果然是一個詐騙島啊境外的這些詐騙直接到台灣就來洗白啦果然是不折不扣的詐騙島我們要跟世界去宣傳這件事情嗎好 所以這一點我今天既然質詢了我希望法部瞭解一下彼岸在世界各國他們惡名昭彰的行為不要再繼續跟他們合作了你找不到合法的業者喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8422.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8423.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
金額多少?金額大概是六七億 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8446.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8472.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
6、7億可是如果按照當時的宣布說兩天扣案就4億5那兩個月才6、7億是嗎到目前為止才扣完6、7億是那是不是那就代表說那兩天哇 那個什麼那種洗錢的那個狀況很多然後就是這兩個月是這種案子變少了呢還是說我們還是沒有查到 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8474.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8478.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這可以說明一下嗎跟委員報告就是說之前那個虛擬資產的查扣就是我們還沒有做這個監管系統平台之前的時候是用冷錢包的方式查扣就是說比方說我們去犯罪的現場搜索那發現這個被告有這個虛擬資產例如比特幣那是用冷錢包的方式把那個錢給扣下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8492.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8501.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所以之前新北跟台中的部分就是案件大概各扣了有兩億那都是扣在冷錢包這邊所以你的意思就是說一上線就把這個冷錢包轉移到這個平台上所以這個金額會就是所以這個上線兩天就告訴大家成果斐然啊成果非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8510.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8528.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
但是事實上如果我們到現在來講的話它其實增加的並不像我們所想像所想像中那麼高前面有私意就是之前就扣下來只是我們把它轉到現在的這個熱錢包的這個公有鏈上那如果現在地檢署這邊有持續查扣到的話我們都是把錢打到這個公有鏈上 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8530.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8557.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這個我就是要了解一下但是基本上有關弊安的問題今天我在這邊做正式的質詢重麻煩法務部你也可以找那個各地方的檢察署是不是還要繼續的跟弊安在做合作我不希望再看到繼續合作了我們會深刻檢討好好不好謝謝謝謝王宏威委的質詢待會在顏寬文委員質詢之後我們休息10分鐘接著我們請顏寬文委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8570.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8590.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
主席、各位列席委員、各位官員、大家早主席我想請我們金融委員會主委有請彭主委主委好 委員好虛擬資產定利專法一直是全國關注的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8591.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8617.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那我想因為它太容易左右我們的生活以虛擬貨幣來講我們它不是法定貨幣但是因為就像央行總裁的回應一樣說虛擬貨幣它無法調節波動價格波動然後效率低沒有球場管道又容易變成是不法人事所利用然後呢又變成是境外交易或者是逃避一些法律規範的這些等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8617.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8633.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那我想虛擬貨幣現在雖然是金管會的業務啦但是因為沒有專法那也不曉得說是金管會想要下哪個機關也無可監管然後呢這個要用什麼樣的法則來 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8635.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8647.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
對於這種虛擬貨幣犯罪的法令來做一個處置那因為我們的專法草案還沒有出來現在指令委由這個虛擬通貨公會 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8651.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8667.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
明天要成立嘛對不對是的是明天要成立那它作為一個過度的一個空窗期的一個自立規範建立自立規範那剛剛有委員分別都提到說這些工會的成員本身就是涉案的一些指標型的一些當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8669.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8670.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
金融監督管理委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8691.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8717.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
要求的到什麼樣程度?謝謝委員的關心剛剛委員其實提點很多事情確實是像比如說他到底是不是貨幣我想貨幣在學理上有幾個要件我想現在的虛擬資產都沒辦法吻合啦所以這是大家很有爭議的事情那未來是不是那還要看眼鏡那剛才有提到說我們未來怎麼納管我剛才在那個報告裡面我們有講說我們現在是用堆積木的方式一層一層的納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8718.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8742.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
剛剛講的自律規範只是我們堆疊積木的第二層就是這個不是所有因為比如說我們前面已經按照《洗錢防制法》做洗房聲明任何人要做這個業務現在都要做要滿足我們《洗錢防制法》這個規定再來第二個才是剛剛委員指導的就是說明天工會成立工會成立開始有個對話的窗口這裡面我們在去年有頒訂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8745.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8769.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個蠻明確的指導原則我們希望他把這些指導原則直接納入到他的自律規範並加強管理我們希望他能夠有自我的自律法則這只是積木的第二層接下來第三層我們接下來修《洗錢防制法》科以所謂的個人避傷沒有登記的刑責最後一層才是我們講剛剛委員講的專法這個專法我們一層層疊上去希望對這個市場能夠好好的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8771.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8784.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
主委,我想很多不肖的業者因為現在利用為了這個賭幣銀行法的規範所以都用這種虛擬貨幣去做一個地下的交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8787.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8807.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
金管會的現在的動作就是說透過你剛剛提到的這個你也做了一個說明但是最重要最重要還是要為了要完善整個虛擬資產的一個制度還有很長的一段路但是要快要快就是說我們的一個設立專法要有一個專屬的虛擬資產的主要負責機關那這主要負責機關金管會對於說設立這個虛擬資產管理局 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8812.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8813.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8836.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8858.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
因為我也有有有給我們那個指導甚至朝向部的發展當然未來如果能夠局的話我們也能夠爭取這樣的一個資源我還是不申請反而要講就是說嚴謹並迅速的制定出這個專法是重點然後呢設局的部分我們要怎麼樣修法怎麼樣這個都我想大家都會支持那 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8859.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8887.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
再來我要再說一個我覺得很有趣啦也是匪夷所思的一個問題因為為了要防這個主詐然後盜刷銀行公會27日已經提案到金管會要將這個遊戲點數還有錢包的儲值、電子禮券等三大類的刷卡消費延遲24小時生效設定的門檻是3000設定門檻是3000我認為這個是就是有點好玩啦有點好笑啦什麼叫好笑3000以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8888.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8904.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
不受規範那這些盜刷這些詐騙集團狂刷2900、2800還不是一樣嗎對不對你設一個3000門檻在那邊然後呢他不用3000他2900、2800所以這個東西我認為說當然我們設定了很多的這些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8912.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8933.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
為了要防止盜刷、犯罪等等我們設定了我們有很多的政策然後也動用了跨部會的很多的這樣子的一個方法一個政策去執行但是到底有沒有一個強勢而有效的方法而不是做這樣子的一個其實如果現在這個詐騙1點如果現在是1.5被1.5帶的話我們這個如果我們防詐是1.5的話現在這些詐騙集團已經跑到3.0了 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8941.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8942.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
銀行公會提過媒體報導引發大家關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8960.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8986.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
在我們委員會也有委員指證那實際上這個東西我們會再虛心的去檢討應該怎麼實施能夠兼顧到防詐以及我們消費權益這部分我們還在研議當中那至於說剛剛委員說希望我們未來更強而有力這就是我們今天站在這邊報告最重要的目的就希望透過法規還有我們的落實來執行我們希望能做到這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8987.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8999.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好 謝謝主委強勢有效的方法最重要好 謝謝主委請回那接下來請法務部我們的徐次長有許徐次長委員好次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9005.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9021.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
市長那個6月6號我那個第一院臺北第一院審查虛擬交易商這個主謀採無罪答辯否認犯罪那他還強調說這個虛擬貨幣交易是創新產業因為法規不齊全他沒有這個詐欺的範疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9027.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9037.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
根據北檢起訴指控當事人透過金融網牌等交易所將虛擬貨幣上架操縱貨幣價格再由IMBA直銷團隊去推銷、礦片這些民眾購買投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9051.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9061.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
詐騷得手近8億元有超過1290位的被害人提告涉及洗錢的金額超過22億所以市長這個部分不僅誇張我想就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9066.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9079.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
犯罪之後毫無詭異毫無詭異然後用法規不齊全的理由要為自己脫罪那我只想要說就是說我在電話局在今年3月的時候執行這種虛擬幣電信網路打詐的這些作為跟掃蕩 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9085.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9108.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
但是我們現在假避傷徵起前的犯罪組織非常的多我們的打詐速度完全跟不上他們的創新速度東邊補起來西邊又破一塊我很肯定我們警政署這些就是我們所有的這些在第一線打詐的這些人員在第一線在打擊詐騙這些人但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9112.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9128.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
如果沒有好的方法強勢而有效的方法那我們到底還能做什麼完全只能靠民眾自我的一個控管自己去防止被詐騙是這樣子嗎 市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9130.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9145.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
報告委員我想委員剛才講的很多都是對的方向因為打詐絕對不是單面的說宣導宣導是最重要的一環就是要讓我們的民眾有那個意識接著我們跨部會要合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9145.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9174.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那跨部會合作就是加強監管的一個效率以它的強度那從源頭就可以把這些管道這個吸收人民金錢的這些管道全部給堵起來那接著當然就是我們結合所有的司法機關我們努力的去查查這些詐騙的人員我想這是多面向的所有的人都要一起努力不是只有靠檢察官或者是警察調查局調查官我想只有靠我們是不夠的要全民動起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9176.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9179.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
市長我再說最近我常常接到一些陳情 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9181.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9210.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
就是我們的這些選民他直接接到電話就是直接電話來就告訴你他是某某地政事務所打來的電話然後呢地政事務所問他要不要借款需不需要貸款那讓當事人這個非常害怕那他怎麼會有他的資料這些資料到底是從哪個地政事務所漏出來的流出來的那不只是這個因為你想想 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9213.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9239.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
這個真正的這個在銀行業如果我們民眾去貸款之後去做這個貸款申請然後結果受到詐騙受到外面這個詐騙集團的一個欺騙還能透過協商或者是這個幫助當事人的方式跟銀行請求減輕負擔降低利息等等但是這一些在外面從事這種私人企業的一個放貸就是為了要賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9240.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9255.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那這個部分詐騙集團他能夠拿到這些地政室事務所的名單往往都是因為有土地交易那這些人都需要現金所以他被詐騙的機會非常的大這部分主席我再一下快結束了 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9256.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9271.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
另外就是我們很多民眾也接到這種詐騙集團假冒是自來水公司的名義來發送這種吹角水廢的簡訊然後誘導民眾連結到一個偽造的官方網站要求輸入信用卡等各自的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9273.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9283.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這個部分非常的嚴重啦好不好我想還是不勝其反要拜託警政署、相關機關要全力的來查緝防制有沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝嚴寬委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9902.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9905.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
好 我們繼續開會 接著我們請陳玉珍委員質詢主席 謝謝 請主委有請彭主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9920.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9936.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
主委你看到這個詐騙這個實在是非常非常的猖獗現在一年有這麼多的這個詐騙的金流在移動看我們金門的例子我們金門詐騙多到連警察的帳戶都遭殃 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9938.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9956.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我們金門縣警察局有一位張姓警員他的名下的帳戶被賄賂多筆款項警方及銀行查出來包括詐騙案被害人賄賂的金額那他的帳戶就被列為警示帳戶那他當然否認涉案他說是金融卡遺失被人家盜用 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9958.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9984.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
但是不管他是參與或是他也是被害者就是遺失金融卡這個表示這個詐騙集團已經猖獗到金門連警察的帳戶都有牽扯到當然他現在被提出這個涉犯詐欺還有洗錢防制以送到地檢署我要講的是連警察的帳戶都被詐騙集團不管是拿去使用還是說撿到這個金融卡那雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9985.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10011.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
可見詐騙真的太猖獗了我上次也問過您嘛您好像沒有被詐騙過也有接過詐騙電話只是沒有被騙到啦那我身邊好多人都被詐騙過而且都是算是受過一定教育的不是說那個很多種手法不管是什麼什麼ETC什麼轉帳啊或者是什麼買一個什麼貨到付款啦我身邊好多好多人都詐我也接過很多詐騙電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10012.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10031.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那我有時候接到電話會懷疑說那天有銀行打電話我也開始懷疑說這個銀行怎麼會有資訊他是不是詐騙集團我還問他是不是詐騙集團因為我們沒有辦法判斷你知道嗎那雖然現在破案率很高啊不代表不代表這個打詐成功喔因為抓到的都是這個人頭戶嘛而且都是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10031.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10032.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
金融監督管理委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10050.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10066.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
而且破案以外對非案人士很多財務都追不回來那你們的作為呢?我們今天討論你們的作為的時候我看到你們的報告有講說去年9月這個人頭戶專案經驗有9大缺失你看這9大缺失 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10067.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10074.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
平凡開戶公會會診的異常太陽監控的參數有問題沒有辦法即時又偵測到異常交易警示的賬戶比對沒有建立沒有即時通知聯徵中心九位往來的客戶調高網路的轉帳線客戶的虛擬帳號被警示沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10096.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10119.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
連結起來做暫停交易進行調查那這個九大的缺失你們的具體的做了哪些改善有什麼具體成效嗎謝謝委員這個是我們金管會在過去我們真的非常努力在做但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅但是我們剛才委員指證了我們現在有十大的做法簡單跟委員講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10120.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10149.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
例如第一個我們會強化那個臨櫃關懷其實我們在過去臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦我去過銀行有個被關懷過關懷這是無微不至這一點是做得很好下一點呢對 下一個就我們剛才委員講的就是帳戶的管理這是我們的重中之重剛剛提到就剛才那個警示帳戶第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶還有就是未來我們的揮名單還有境內境外的管控名單這些我們都不斷地在加強這樣的管理就是我們帳戶管理是很重要我們主柵一個非常重要的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10152.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10165.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
針對新興的支付工具、第三方支付跟電資還有信用卡的部分我們也開始做很多的防堵我們還進行檢查我們還有做比如說未來打詐事法裡面如果通過的話我們還要這邊來強化所以當然這個沒有止境 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10171.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10182.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
金管會真的是非常非常重要的角色因為最後都是金流的問題嘛如果詐騙人拿不到錢的話那他可能這個手段的話或是各方面的話就是至少被害者的財產財務的損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10185.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10198.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
會降低那很重要我們今天討論虛擬貨幣的部分你們說你們這個我看你們這個報告裡面說那個個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢生命那個沒有做這個就詐騙集團他會把這個錢轉換成虛擬貨幣這個我們知道現在都慢慢的你們當然有嚴格要求做KYC掌控這個人頭賬戶那現在詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商再進行這個金錢的轉移那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10212.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10239.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
你們說個人避傷沒有做洗錢聲明的這個職業聲明因此自屬違法但是這個有違反這個就是虛擬通貨辦法嗎?因為你這個VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人避傷嘛有違反公司法嗎?現在的話就是我們現階段剛剛講那個刑責部分要等到那個是刑責我知道現在的話我們是他沒有聲明去做這件事情我們現在是有罰則的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10240.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10241.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
你說什麼?個人閉商啊?誰可以罰他?就是...我們先... |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10247.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10273.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我們就罰過 對你們也可以罰他就對了 是不是個人避傷的部分 是不是對他有違反你們的VASP的這個原則嗎洗房辦法裡面 對洗房法是你們這邊罰的嗎洗房法裡面規定的執法這一塊是由我們來主政因為洗錢 這個虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制的主政單位是他沒有變成公私組織你們有可以就對了 是不是也歸在今晚會這邊可以處罰 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10274.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10299.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我確認一下因為這個大型的這個我們看到大型的這個平台的這個弊商齁你們是列管的嘛你們可以做行政管制嘛對 如果說他已經做我們的洗房登記的那些業者對 對 對如果你說大型的那個平台的話如果有做登記那個人弊商不用你們許可嘛那要做登記嗎 也是要嗎現在 現在要現在個人弊商也要做登記就是未來我們為了強化管理如果沒有登記的而執行這個業務會有行者 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10302.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10328.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那但是刑責 我知道刑責 但刑責比較慢啊你知道嗎 就等於是中間刑責等於是刑責不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛 對不對刑責要事後的這個比較 刑事處分嘛刑責的要求比較 所以等於是那你在這個部分 你看個人 你看我這個簡報裡頭個人避傷 你們沒有許可 你們做的是刑責那做刑責的話 最後你們沒有辦法管啊都變成是司法去管啊 法務部去管嘛 對不對那最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10329.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10356.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
進入司法很冗長啦然後最後的話很多受害者的這個金錢事實上也都是拿不到的啊您了解我在說什麼嗎?就是說你可以管的是大型平台避傷嘛對不對這個你們略管你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分嘛那這個是管理得到的比較可以及時比較能及時管到嘛因為它是有你們登記嘛那你剛剛說個人避傷也要向你們登記是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10357.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10383.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
現在是好那但是那像你們登記然後你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎現在的話我們沒辦法用刑責的方式那這個部分你們沒辦法用行政因為刑責也不歸你們這邊還要立法還要立法所以這個部分你們什麼時候應該也要讓這個個人避傷不然的話這個會變成一個漏洞啊這個詐騙集團他就把錢轉到這個個人避傷的這個手上你就切不掉那最後當然用刑責刑責受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10383.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10411.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
被害者去報警報警後就進入司法司法程序這麼冗長等到查到的時候那個錢早就不知道留到何方了您了解嗎這變成法律上的漏洞啊是是是我們對那個帳流跟幣流我們也有一些管控措施剛才提到我們提到未來假設的打詐司法裡面有通過的話這一塊的話我們可以做一些金流的攬所以這個如果通過你們裡頭也會包括有關這個個人幣商的部分你們也會做那個嗎也是納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10412.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10413.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那會有行政的處罰嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10429.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10444.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
超商現在都有這個貨到戶款嘛對不對那戶到戶款有時候這個貨也不知道是誰的貨然後人家去了就領了莫名其妙就領了領後就付了款那付了款以後這個錢現在剛付的時候應該還在超商的這個手上啦就是超商的這個的這個帳戶裡頭還不會一下就流到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10454.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10471.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
有關金流的部分我們是相關的法例或法務部知不知道相關法例是可以規定說比如說他用這種超商平台在詐騙有人會用超商的平台詐騙那詐騙的時候你去超商付款可能刷這個可能付這個以後這個是不是有一個金流時間也可以給他控管住 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10472.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10488.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
讓至少比如說發現如果比如說我拿了一個東西回來我發現說這個東西不是我訂的我被詐騙了然後趕快回去跟超商講說這多少24小時還多久可以讓這個金流從這裡阻住這樣子因為超商是很方便的地方那有時候這個詐騙人就用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10490.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10490.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
金融監督管理委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10513.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10535.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們會支持你的打詐示範我的意思就是說金融部分務實面來講剛有說3000塊轉帳24小時那因為超商是很多人在那邊不管是刷卡或者是付這個錢付那個錢有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙那是不是在這個部分有在各個這種平台超商也是一個平台的部分在這個金融部分你們要做相關的管控 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10535.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10558.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這樣可以防止錢被流到這個詐騙集團上面去因為我發現好多人跟我曾經都去招商做很多事情這部分是不是你們也看一下如果在裡面沒有規定或這個只要行政的手段來做的話法務部或是金管會這邊是不是也來做一個規定我想這可以有效阻絕很多人被騙就是金流流到詐騙集團手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10558.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10566.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
謝謝委員我想這些剛剛提到的都在我們未來規定的範圍之內有齁好麻煩你齁謝謝陳宇宗委員的質詢接著我們請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席有請金管瑞主委有請彭主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10585.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10602.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
主委好有一個全球防詐聯盟叫做GASA它有在做一個去年的統計報告出來台灣的部分它是說每個月就是每個人至少一次被詐騙的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10604.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10627.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
而且當中66.7%的人是認為他的經濟受到影響所以我想這個詐騙這件事情對我們全體國民、國人來講其實是非常的困擾我甚至在前幾天有個次長到辦公室開會他不斷地接到電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10628.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10634.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我說您接沒關係銀行通知他說他的信用卡被倒刷兩萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10636.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10660.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那我跟他說這個可能是詐騙電話我請辦公室幫您確認一下果然真的是被盜刷所以我想這個是每個人都遇得到跟我們的年齡跟我們的教育程度其實沒有什麼相關因為他可能是就是亂數在那個地方跑那我現在是說這個其中其實信用卡確實是很讓人困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10661.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10679.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那我看到金管會下的這個聯合信用卡處理中心你們也有做一些統計資料那把這個信用卡的詐騙類型它是分為七大類那在這個當中我們也看到從過去10年前2014年27萬筆的詐欺筆數 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10684.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10707.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
他的詐騙金額是5.7億到現在的話是大約60萬比33億他是有起伏高低但是確實是不斷的在成長當中那這個當中我請教一下因為我看到你們做出來的這個分析他把這個網購類網購類他是佔比99% |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10712.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10734.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那其他的包括備竊卡、遺失卡他種種其他的佔比加起來才1%可是呢這個網購類的詐欺信用卡詐欺是佔99%那我想請教一下主委這個樣子的一個這麼差距這麼大的比例您認為是一個什麼樣的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10739.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10760.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這可能是網購是一個通路但它很多的這個工具可能是這樣分類的關係不過這個確實網購是一個很大詐騙的可以在那邊出沒的地方這樣可以看得出來如果說這樣的分類確實的話我知道的是我有問別人就是網購到底你們是怎麼被詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10761.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10778.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
他們是說因為我們現在這個信用卡他去網購的時候不需要用實體他只要留下他的卡號、辨識碼、日期、姓名等等資料而這些資料其實是可以透過設立一個假網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10779.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10797.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
或者是釣魚的連結、簡訊又或者是它是粉磚小編其實我們在滑我們的什麼臉書啊什麼經常都滑得到類似的形態它就是把你的個資就竊取了我們自己就外洩了 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10798.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10821.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我現在想要請教主委說這樣的一個防堵的方式金管會有什麼策進作為嗎我們過去也有觀察到信用卡在刷卡過程當中有潛藏蠻多的風險比如說我們做了幾件事情要求他們在比如刷卡的時候第一個要求要顯示新台幣的金額其實我們也看到有人用比如說這個NTW |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10823.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10825.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
金融監督管理委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10843.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10859.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
謝謝主委你講到OTP我也問過他們說OTP確實是最好的一種驗證方式但是呢他們說可不可以再改進一下因為這個OTP發送檢訊啊它有的銀行它是 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10861.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10883.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
用E-mail有的是簡訊手機簡訊加E-mail那但是這個E-mail其實是一個破口那其實手機大家天天拿在手上就算手機不見了也會急著去找所以他其實這個部分這是其一那其二他們說有一些舉個例子像PC Home他們有的沒有加入這個OTP簡訊驗證碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10885.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10915.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以金管會這個部分我是想說你們是不是應該來去做一個盤點就是在比如說在信用卡刷卡的時候OTP驗證的部分我們會來對就是關於這個OTP驗證因為大家都說這個是最好最有效那你應該去盤點哪一些沒有加入要公告讓大家知道哪一些人他並沒有加入這種驗證方式那也去盤一下有哪些是用email發送大家說那個不好用我想金管會應該可以做這個工作吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10916.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10940.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我們的盤點沒有問題啦好那另外就是雖然不到1%但是他也佔4.7億元就是那個遺失卡的部分那我之前在3月25號的時候其實我有質詢過因為大家都說是不是可以請金管會去要求一下做一個一戰式的金融卡信用卡掛失機制那我要跟主委講 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10941.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10963.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
其實那天質詢了之後好幾家的媒體其實都有把這樣的新聞訊息披露出來表示說很有感大家覺得這確實是個問題如果能夠解決的話很好但是金管會的回覆是這樣說他說目前持卡人申辦信用卡及金融卡約定條款尚未授權單一掛式窗口的業務第二個呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10967.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10979.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
說辦理掛失業務需要各銀行機構分別與持卡人、本人詳細確認個資增加單一窗口進行相關資業可能會提高個資外洩措施掛失的相關風險及損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10982.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11008.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以我看起來好像是很難銀行好像沒有意願但是我們也覺得很奇怪啊因為按照信用卡定型化契約其實上面都寫著如果辦理掛失其實是需由發卡機構負擔或者是掛失手續前24小時持卡人免負擔所以理論上我們覺得應該是銀行比較吃虧吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11009.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11025.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以金管會是不是可以幫忙去調查一下到底這樣的一個被掛屍的倒刷這種他到底民眾的損失多還是銀行的損失多可以幫忙了解一下嗎 主委可以 我們來看看有沒有這個資料對 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11026.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11026.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11053.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11069.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我看到你們法務部有一筆資料就是關於地檢署執行原住民裁判確定有罪者之前十大罪名那裡頭大概是寫到說詐欺罪的成長最多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11071.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11088.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
年增率是67.5%但是我自己也做了一點功課因為這樣的資料的揭露有一點危險會讓人家以為原住民會詐欺罪很多但是全國的詐欺罪的成長率是76.6% |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11092.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11112.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我們原住民的人口是佔全體國人的2.5%那我也特別去看了一下這樣的一個詐欺罪的案例就是全年度349件除以全體的母數14000多件也是跟人口比例很符合2.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11115.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11136.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那就讓我比較沒有那麼緊張了啦但是我要跟次長您講但是我很憂慮我很難過為什麼這樣的一個比例雖然跟全國差不多而且甚至低於全國可是你知道嗎我們看貧窮線的時候以去年來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11137.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11143.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們全體國人的家戶平均收入是129萬可是原住民是73萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11146.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11170.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
幾乎一半也就是說對原住民來講其實對我們來講這是不可承受之重或輕對我們的經濟影響其實是很大的所以呢我就是很關心也很想了解就是後來因為這是2013到2017的資料嘛那不曉得說法務部這邊後來有什麼樣的策進作為有改善嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11171.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11199.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們還是會透過不同的管道來宣導當然我們原住民的朋友跟我們一般的民眾我們也都是一樣會做宣導偏鄉的宣導宣導有用嗎宣導是基本的我想我們甚至於會到小學、中學我們要從最基本開始宣導起宣導是有用嗎可是我們宣導了十幾二十幾年那些孩子也都已經成為成年人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11201.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11225.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我們的宣導工作不能停所以我希望聽宣導之外還有什麼策進作為那如何改善原住民朋友的生活環境我想委員都很關心因為其實這種詐欺人頭對原住民來講其實我們的經濟體質本來就比較弱其實會造成我們更大的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11226.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11241.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以委員一直在關心這個問題如何改善他們的工作因為像這個人頭帳戶像我從柬埔寨帶回來的那些人他就立刻進行警局啊他就是人頭戶啊這個情形很嚴重啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11243.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11268.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
他們把我們等同於像遊民一樣是可以利用的是欺騙我們博取我們的善良所以我希望法務部要有更多策進作為而且這是2013到2017的資料2018到2024我就沒看到所以我無法比較到底有沒有成效所以是不是可以提供我最近五年2018到2024的資料讓我了解看看有沒有成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11268.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11268.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11284.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11285.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
主席有請彭主委有請彭主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11316.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11334.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
委員好主委好其實本期上一屆在財政委員會的時候針對今天從昨天開始發生的星光人壽還有星光金扣我就提出了多次的質詢當然今天昨天從這個吳東進被收押到1億元的交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11335.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11360.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
對於星光金控這個集團本席在上一屆從2021年開始有五次的諮詢然後兩次的臉書發文當時他們的公私治理我就收到非常多的檢舉包括當時對於當時的金管會主委或者是保險局我不只一次的提出要求對於他們的內機、內控甚至於他們曾經發生的這個相關的高階人員該所以處以的罰還該 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11365.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11389.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
等等其實都沒有好好的來進行果然諸位啊真的是出事了那麼對於這樣的一個星光人壽、吳東敬現在1億元交報1億元這個金額非常高喔是吧如果是以一般的案件來講我認為過去金管會面對立法委員質詢的時候要求如果你們只是約談、交報告、裁罰、減薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11393.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11418.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
包括他們的整體的公司治理比如說像金管會為什麼會退他們的報告他們的KYC包括星光銀行對IMB的事件等等包括我曾經質詢過星光金控是國內14家的業者當中唯一游營轉虧等等現在我要面臨的問題是新售現在正在進行125億元的增資 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11422.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11444.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
金管會現在怎麼來看這個增資案會不會受到影響那麼如果受到影響的話後續該怎麼處理金管會面對這樣的一個案件我知道有些委員會說啊 這個是不是一個政治案件但是我先把大前提說在前面如果任何一個非法都扣上政治辦案那我說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11445.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11471.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
法院可以收起來了檢察官也不用辦案了調查局也不用查案了因為就會成為所有犯罪者的一個脫逃的一個標籤我現在在乎的是一個整體的金融穩定目前新售125億的增資還在增資當中過去它的RBC一直都是不足到200%所以現在你怎麼來看整體的金融市場會不會受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11472.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11499.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
是 謝謝委員我想喔維持金融市場的穩定以及市場的公平這是金管會責無旁貸剛剛委員講說對於過去的質詢對於金管會的指證我想我們都會銘記在心而且我們也都持續的依法在辦理剛剛委員提到說難道我們沒有其他的工具了嗎其實我們是一個行政主管機關我們依保險法裡面擁有的職權我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11501.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11521.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
該怎麼做我們就怎麼做至於說大股東個人的行為我剛剛已經表達過了這是大股東個人的行為我們關注的是整個金控公司以及他所屬的金融機構的穩定性這個剛剛委員的指正我們都會持續來講至於說剛剛您提到曾之漢是否受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11522.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11536.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我想新售它過去沒有符合RBC的規定我們依保險法的規定要求他們在5月24號已經提出了相關的計畫我們剛才在審議中剛剛也報告說我們在6月底前會針對它的增資計畫進行所謂的回復意見這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11542.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11559.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們剛才講過這次大股東行為跟這是兩回事我們增資計劃我們還是按照程序進行好主委我要提醒的就是說這個大股東他過去在我的質詢當中那是不止一次就是他會插手他非職務之內的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11561.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11586.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那麼現在被爆出弊案之後有資金的挪用之後第一個投資人還要相信給予增資的機會嗎第二個是我們知道現在出事的是新手但是在星光金控底下還有星光銀行還有元富證券還有星光投信還有星光金保貸還有星光金的創投那這個大股東 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11587.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11606.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
就像您所說的他擁有實質的股權的時候他的手只插入星光金嗎金管會有沒有再針對其他包括銀行、證券、投信、創投或者是保貸來進行了解因為當時我已經不止一次的在詢問說這個大股東他是不是握有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11607.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11622.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
大股的權利但是變成是底下的人即使不願意但是沒有辦法到股東交代這就是公司自己上一個很大的破口啊是的這也是為什麼我在上任業務報告裡面對於市場管理對於大股東 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11624.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11648.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
對於所謂的他不具有權責相當的這個要進行管理這個我們也把這個未來會提法來修改剛剛提到就是說我們對旗下各子公司的關注我們整個會當然是完全都有去做一些掌控至於剛才大家擔心風險感染的問題金控法53條、55條、36條都有明確的規定我想我們都依法在執行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11649.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11673.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
本席提醒 主席我知道時間到了我趕快 儘快做結論本席提醒 第一新光監控底下除了新售之外還有銀行還有證券還有投信大股東的作為如果今天他人壽可以伸手的時候其他有沒有伸手請金管會了解了解之後提問報告再來就是我提醒國華人壽當時政府是挹注了八千八百八十億八百八十幾億 對不對但是他的資產只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11676.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11695.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
三千億喔今天新售的規模比這個還要高上好幾倍的時候我們要做好準備好嗎是的沒問題我想剛剛那個委員指正還有資料我們會再跟委員報告好謝謝謝謝林土英委員的諮詢接著請洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員不在接著我們請李坤成委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11705.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11708.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
謝謝主席 我們請金管委彭主委有請彭主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11713.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11732.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
主委好今天我看也很多的委員都很關心這個新光榮獸的這個前董事長吳東進被約談的事情那我想請問一下這件事情呢這個前應該是在說在2022年3月10號我看金管會有一個新聞稿這個新聞稿就是認為說這個吳東進的前董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11736.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11758.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
他在停職董事長的職位召開會議有不動產相關的會議由他擔任主席有24次沒有出席會議但要指示怎麼做有3次按照吳東進指示提報董事會審議該公司與吳東進投資的事業進行交易者有4案這是在3月 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11760.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11773.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這個2022年3月10號的這個金管會的這個新聞稿這個我們市局長也在這邊那我想請問一下這個案子這個是不是跟我們這個2022年這個3月份的這個金管會的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11774.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11798.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這個檢查有關係嗎?是的,我想在過去其實每家金控跟所有的金融機構都會接受例行性的檢查我想我們應該是在110年的時候對這個進行檢查這時候我們檢查出了一些的意見我們剛才會尋我們內部有駐會檢察官的管道認為說有涉犯刑法的疑慮的會移送給檢調處理委員剛才講的就是這樣一個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11803.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11828.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
請問一下主委或是局長當時候金管會有沒有針對這一個進行對星光人獸處分之後有沒有依請檢察官進行偵辦這個案子應該是我們去年應該是去年5月移送去年5月移送那去年5月移送這案子是在2022年3月份你們有處分然後去年5月移送那為什麼到今年的6月才開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11829.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11847.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
跟委員報告,就是我們金管會是一個行政機關,減掉他們的步驟跟他們的作為,我們是沒有辦法去智慧,對,謝謝因為你們這個,它是一個獨立機關,可是實際很剛好,現在不是要來爭執嗎?對不對?然後呢,我問一下局長好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11848.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11864.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
現在政治的報告已經送到金管會了,你們也看到報告,然後有一些相關的一些建議提供給他們,也請他們再提供資料,對不對?對,我們還在討論還在討論中,那是往正向的發展還是怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11869.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11890.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們當然希望能夠正向發展啦尤其是在他提出的方案能不能執行的細節進行一些溝通那所以這個兩案子那個包含新光能的時候跟山上美邦都是朝正面發展就對了我們會盡量跟他們溝通希望朝正面發展好那這個會不會影響到他們的爭執啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11894.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11922.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
應該兩件事情增資的部分他財業務的計畫已經來了就是他有跟我們承諾他要增資那我們就這個來做討論啦所以這個承諾是針對財業務改善計畫跟現在大股東的問題他增資的期限是到哪時候啊合理期限就是我們要跟他討論他那個時程到底能不能能達成那他是提到的期限是哪時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11923.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11944.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
有可能在下半年其實我關心的是這一個它的資本市主力的問題本來大家已經提心吊膽了現在又出現這件事情會不會影響到他們政治我想這兩個事情是兩件事但是我們會密切注意是不是有受到影響你說它是兩件事但是它有可能是一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11946.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11969.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這個投資人的心裡覺得說這個前董事長已經被依背信罪被這個約談了那可能會影響到他們投資啊對我剛才講說這兩件事情是他所涉犯的法律層次是不一樣我剛才也有說明過在法律上獨立的但是呢比如說市場上心裡面受到影響這種我們沒辦法預期但是我們看這件事情真知我們就按照程序來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11971.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11998.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
請教主委今天的討論主題是虛擬貨幣請問一下這五年多來從107年我看資料你們有把修正的《洗錢防制法》把虛擬通貨納入洗錢房子的低度規範的管理然後在110年6月也有制定虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊滋恐的辦法然後112年9月又公布了 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12000.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12007.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
虛擬資產平台交易業務事業（VASP（的指導原則然後到113年最近有《洗錢防制法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12008.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12031.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
第15條之二第6項帳戶暫停限制功能或禁與關閉的管理辦法然後呢你們也這個有一個VASP的指導原則那請問一下這個工會是明天要成立嗎是的那委員剛剛對那個法規收集非常的完整就是說第一個沒有錯就按照我們的收到的訊息工會是在6月13號會會來籌組工會好那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12037.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12041.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
公會裡面目前完成聲明登記的有25家對不對是的那沒有登記的有幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12050.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12067.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
現在過去陸陸續續跟我們申請因為它其實上有些是我們把它拒絕以後它當然可以改善再來我們現在大概是目前我們還在審核中應該十幾家應該四五六家有沒有一個期限就是說我們希望說他們做來做這一個登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12069.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12091.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
現在大概六、七十家吧過去曾經來申請過六、七十家但是有些不服我們今天跟他回復意見他改善就會還會再過來現在還在等的等我們審查意見大概有16家、15家左右那有沒有一個期限這個要看他們準備的程度因為其實我們的洗房禮聲明他要做到的點其實蠻多的那所以說這個成立工會 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12091.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12105.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
基本上就是有這個聲明的這25家就對了是的 就是我們已經做完洗房聲明的總共現在大概是24、5家那這25家裡面有一家叫做這個S王牌數位交易所 有沒有有 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12106.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12124.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那他的負責人齁那之前齁才因為這個涉及詐騙洗錢齁對應該是前負責人對啦因為他現在被抓進去了嘛是前負責人嘛那我問一下那所以他也是工會的成員之一先生目前是那這樣有沒有問題啊呃當然這是個自律組織啦那我們我們還要自立遊戲規則欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12126.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12151.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那結果他的前負責人這家機構他的前負責人涉及詐騙那結果這一家的交易所虛擬貨幣交易所要來制定這個遊戲規則這樣會不會有點怪怪的當然他只是其中之一而且那個前涉犯的負責人已經現在更換成另外一家公司我想不是啊那是換湯不換藥啊這個的話我想工會他們應該會做出明智的抉擇啦我們在那你的態度啊要是看你的態度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12152.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12173.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
站在主管機關我們一定希望這個市場健全發展公會的籌組是非常重要的機制是啊所以我們才希望說它能夠發揮功能那結果這個發現說裡面這個王牌數位這個交易所這個涉及詐騙那結果它要訂立這個虛擬貨幣的這個遊戲規則我們是覺得很奇怪啊然後它也沒有任何的沒有任何的行政處罰都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12174.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12188.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
未來我們希望他工會因為很多的工會自律規範他們也會有罰則只是我剛才講說未來對這個管理不是只有這個工會因為我剛才講我們會用四道積木的去堆疊我們三法是到明年的事情了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12190.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12205.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
現在就是用工會的規範來做處理現在我們除了《洗錢防制法》剛才委員所條列的那幾個法規以外接下來明天就會有一個工會成立我們就趕快督導他成立工會就等於說再疊加上來假設我們《洗錢防制法》也通過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12207.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12219.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
會再疊加一層當我們專法出來就會疊加一層基木要疊得好你下面基礎要穩所以我們剛就在質疑說你這個下面基礎不穩的話你上面怎麼堆上去啊我們一定是會好好的來處理所以我才問說你這個你對於這個有涉及這個洗錢的詐騙的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12224.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12248.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
虛擬貨幣的公司你還讓它繼續成為工會的議員你也覺得無所謂就對了不是我想這個工會任何應該他們要有一個自我約束的機制畢竟它是一個商業同業工會那我會請我們的那個政績局密切的督導對啊你們是主管單位啊工會是歸工會當然工會有自律的規範但是你們是主管單位啊不能說這個一點態度都沒有啊到現在也沒有任何的行政處分都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12249.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12271.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
現在的部分我們現在因為公會還沒成立但是呢不是啊 我的意思是說像這種有涉及到詐騙的這個虛擬資產的公司然後當然他前副責人被抓走了但是這家公司沒有任何的沒有任何的處罰 文具都沒有嗎這是我想說另外一個層次可能不在我們今晚會的主管範圍啦那是誰的主管範圍如果說涉犯違法的話應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12274.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12294.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
因為金管會是對這個洗錢防制的部分還就是做一個...不是啊,那所以說這家公司它有涉及違法了然後沒有任何的一個行政部門可以對它做任何的處罰都會覺得蠻奇怪的,這不歸金管會管嗎?我們就看它所列管,就跟剛剛我們討論剛剛比如說某家...不是啊,我問主委,它歸不歸你管? |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12297.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12310.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
現在不跟你管現在我們根據剛剛那個洗房的規定我們是我們對這個VASP是一個主政單位對啊所以我才問說他沒有任何的處罰完全沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12311.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12334.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這很奇怪吧這我們來理解一下這我們會來理解啦不是理解啦我的意思是說他這是一個詐騙的公司然後他籌組工會那你也認為說他的合法性沒有問題那我再問說那你這家公司負責人是被抓走是他這個人的問題啊但是這家公司沒有任何的處罰我也覺得蠻奇怪的啊都沒有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12339.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12357.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
因為我們內部其實有對這些個人弊商比較異常的那其實我們有控管案子那等我們內部審查完畢之後也有可能他我們會用到我們的行政處分來處分這些公司早就要處理了啊我先聽主委講說這個好像不歸你管一樣是歸你管的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12358.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12379.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那以後大家都亂搞就好了啊《洗錢防制法》還是有規範到啦所以我們會依照《洗錢防制法》來規範它是嘛 可以管的啊 怎麼會沒有辦法管呢 主委這是態度的問題啊你要管就可以管啊 對不對你是盡管貴欸我們一定承擔 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝李坤城委員的質詢接下來請葛如君委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12388.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12412.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
謝謝主席有請金管會彭金隆主委有請彭主委委員好主委好我想今天雖然我們的這個題目有說VASP淪為詐騙工具但我們認為這有一點汙名的感覺我也相信這個官員也不是這樣想的汽車也可以拿來做這個作案 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12412.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12428.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
但是我想也可能被淪為詐騙工具所以我想所有的東西都有可能被惡意的使用虛擬貨幣其實就技術而言都是中立的我必須幫科學技術來說一聲話那當然剛剛也非常印象深刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12428.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12453.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
您我相信您我都同意防制洗錢和詐欺犯罪的重要性也要針對虛擬資產及交易事業VASP的規範我們也必須要擔心是不是過於嚴苛對這個新興產業造成不必要的壓力但剛剛您有提到非常尊重這個明天會正式成立的這個工會我也予以讚賞跟贊同那是不是給您一點時間來分享一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12453.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12482.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
用工會加上我們的這個主管機關怎麼樣來做一個平衡是不是一個好的做法是不是也能讓你說明一下為什麼工會其實非常的重要謝謝委員我想我們在金管會在過去對市場的監理呢就有一套模式像比如說我就先舉例像我們銀行我們有完善的法令但是也有工會在運作那當然這個前提是它必須要是一個納管的單位對 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12482.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12502.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
所以我們想說我們剛剛也跟委員會報告我們先初步呢先用《洗錢防制法》切入然後再來呢我們希望它籌組工會工會是個自律組織它不是個法律約束但是我們是身為主管機關我們會強力的監督再來我們接下來第三階段服役《洗錢防制法》裡面可以行者加重這個管理最後我們有個專法來處理這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12505.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12532.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那剛好也是我要問的根據報告內容金管會已經要求VASP業者制定自律規範而且相關規範要經金管會核准表示業者已經尋求並且也自我約束、積極自我管理有相關的機制來保護消費者您剛才也提到第三階段之後有登記制以及也要符合《洗錢防制法》以及《洗錢防制法》裡頭又有刑罰的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12534.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12550.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
所以我想請教一下主委既然已經有自律規範也有工會從明天開始那麼正在主管機關的立場為何不給這些自律規範更多的時間來驗證它的可能性而要急於推動專法來進行管控呢是不是可以稍微回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12550.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12570.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
謝謝其實剛才委員講的專法應該是第四階段是那等於說我們按照的時程最快我們大概就是明年的上半年才會提到報院報院呢那接下來還要經過院的審查送到大院來審查凝聚共識我覺得會有一段很長的時間那在這個中間我們打詐不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12571.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12581.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
所以我們先用《洗錢防制法》修正去做但是我們也希望說我們的自律規範能趕快上路能夠用多方的方式來彌補這段時間空窗 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12581.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12601.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
很好 謝謝主委我想我們一樣也是有共識公司協作可以有效平衡防弊與新利的目標這一點我相信我們都是非常重視的那您今天的報告也提到聯防通報的機制快速返還招詐欺款項等等的機制這個確實能夠提高防詐的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12601.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12629.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
但需要各方的高度協同想請教一下主委在實施上如何確保相關的比如說警察機關、司法機關、金融機構和VASP之間能夠無縫的合作金管會對此有沒有一些關於內部教育或者是技術、金流分析的工具尤其是虛擬的金流有沒有一些具體的技術的掌握、工具的掌握實施的方案和時間表您是否認同我這一塊說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12630.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12657.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
當然這個監管對我們來講是很大的挑戰就是我也不會沿金管會的資源從過去傳統的金融監理走到數位的監理確實要一段的這個調整但是我們過去在長期在推動金融科技發展的時候我們也累積了一些資源那我想說未來我們會朝這個方向來發展那至於說裡面剛剛講我們需要補強的地方我們會來加強補強因為畢竟這是已經是確定的趨勢我們就要勇於面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12658.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12680.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我想各國關於這個虛擬金流的分析還有防詐的工具技術其實都有很深的著力臺灣的業者其實也這個能力非常強也希望能夠持續的做到公司協力那最後我再次強調啦虛擬資產作為一種新興科技它其實具備極大的發展潛力因為它不需要圈地不需要過多的水 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12681.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12709.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
也不需要過多的電到目前為止現在已經有新的技術了所以政府應該鼓勵並支持產業的發展不要一味的強化監管這個我有看到您的精神我予以支持請監管會持續的平衡防弊與新力給予自律組織和自律規範更多的時間與空間謝謝謝謝指正謝謝謝謝葛珠君委員的質詢今天請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接著我們請王世堅委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12733.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12736.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
謝謝主席我請金國會彭主委有請彭主委喂你好彭主委我們金國會已經納管虛擬貨幣那麼這個產業四個階段從第一階段到第四階段當中第一階段已經完成了啦齁那這個推動設立那麼制定自律規範來管理這第二階段第三階段你們打算 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12762.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12763.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12784.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12803.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
來對非法業者科以刑責、加以管理這個都對但是到目前為止我們變成只對平台不對個人啦針對這些個人戶那麼我們似乎沒有任何的對策 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12805.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12821.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
那麼從3年前110年6月開始事實上那麼金管委已經陸續有在推動那麼推動的就是說對於這個這些虛擬貨幣平台VASP做這個法尊 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12823.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12842.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
法尊聲明的這些管理可是110年6月到現在為止吼你們納管願意登記來成立的只有25家這25家全部都是法人都是公司沒有個人必商那 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12845.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12856.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那個主委我認為個人避傷才是重點耶你看所有在涉入詐欺的幾乎啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12858.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12882.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
查證的結果幾乎都是個人避傷這些是最大的問題點所以我今天要問你的就是說在未來你再持續推動根據《洗錢防制法》推動VASP這樣子的過程當中對於個人避傷那麼我們應該如何來管理你的看法呢謝謝委員確實這是社會關注的點那我們稱為個人避傷其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12887.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12915.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
每個人對個人避傷的定義其實不太一樣那我們既然稱為傷他就必須要做商業登記跟稅籍登記才叫做傷我們現在很多想像是個人的行為這其實上我們必須要加以釐清他既然要成為這個合法他必須要登記登記的前提是你要滿足我們對洗錢防制的要求剛剛比如委員指正的我們是說你要有一個標準的內控程序能夠完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12916.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12938.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
還就是對洗錢的整個程序你要做到這件事情我才可能讓你這樣所以剛剛講說我們對個人避傷確實我們就開始逐步納管剛剛提到了第三階段裡面就是希望透過立法的強制力來對它做一個管理你如果說你要做這件事情的話那你就好好的做好我們洗錢防制取得這個資格我們就讓你做大概是這個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12939.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12963.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
因為這些詐騙的車手那麼利用這樣個人避傷那把錢交給他們用這個那同時一肝離骨啊還順便洗錢那前一陣子有一個這個檢察官他們的協會叫做建青協會那麼他們建青建改協會他們辦了這個研討會裡面啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12968.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12985.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我去調他們說他們對這些詐欺犯罪他們的重視他們的一些看法裡面大概炮聲隆隆都在針對金管會尤其針對金管會完全不管個人避傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12987.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13005.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那就我講的 你的前任在這三年裡面他覺得說 已經有依《洗錢防制法》那做了法尊聲明有25家來啦就以這25家交差了事但是就我剛剛講的個人避傷 完全 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13008.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13036.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
都無動於衷對他們一點都莫可奈何我是認為說這不能只是對於願意守法的業者來加高他登記的這些門檻我們應該對這些個人券商還要有更積極的作為我現在看到的作為是還不夠啦以及現在除了這個個人券商以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13037.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13066.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我認為像境外的境外那更不用講你個人的都完全束手無策的那境外的呢境外的更不用說啦還有在我怕說這樣VASP這樣推行之後未來還會有一個問題啦就是說大家去把願意守法合法的公司把它法治化法尊說明之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13068.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13090.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
那這些是成立合法的交易場所囉那這些交易場所是不是就藉由他的合法性他是有牌的那他就把他整個牌子就賣掉啦就賣給這些詐騙集團洗錢集團不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13091.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13117.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
所以我認為這一點我在你今天整篇的報告裡面我沒有看到你這個有什麼針對這一件事情有什麼這個防制方法所以我認為說如果未來一旦VASP這樣股權變動是不是我們要加一個要求股權變動一定要通報金管會而且要金管會同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13119.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13141.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
你看法呢?剛好委員指正的就是我們現在努力的方向第一個我們剛才講我們對《洗錢防制法》修正我們訂定一個執法登記的標準我們就把它放進來再來未來的專法的時候我們對這個機構的管理當然負責人還有股權的移轉當然是重點的重點重點的重點那有這種情形發生了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13143.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13163.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
未來我們的專法裡面呢因為它是一定會走機構跟行為管理兩個監作剛剛委員講說假設有冒名然後就是轉售我想就像我們對很多的金融機構你的負責人還有你的股權也不是可以隨便移轉的好 那個時間暫停我請一下今天刑事局有來齁刑事局請熱處有請黃副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13172.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13173.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那個 欸 其實齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13176.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13201.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
其實現在打詐第一線就是警方啦其實警方是疲於奔命那他對於警方在打詐這麼積極的做其實我們社會各界都給予高度的評價我們認為現在打詐還這麼猖獗那問題不是在警方警方是有很認真的查可是我覺得對於我們員警已經很辛苦的員警 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13202.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13210.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
比方說在這個虛擬貨幣啦在這一些的交易上面我覺得很多員警他不知道說條碼就超商啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13214.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13240.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個超商上面這些條碼其實就是他們在交易虛擬貨幣這個不知道說這個用途是這樣所以導致當我們很多警方第一線的警員他不曉得的時候還必須再去針對這些條碼、字條去查證的結果這又多花了好幾天所以在這一個部分是不是要加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13241.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13247.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
對於我們第一線員警對他們的這一部分的教育這一個部分您看法呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13249.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13275.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
謝謝委員的關心那有關這個超商裡面的一些金流洗金流的一些作為不僅包括這個還有包括遊戲點數也是那有一些這些購買這些虛擬資產的這個部分我們會再繼續的對員警來做教育我們也一直在講那個也會再做強化如果還有這種疏失的話我們會積極的再教育我們的同仁要多加注意這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13276.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13288.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
道高一尺魔高一丈永遠壞人他們的智慧永遠都是高於我們正道的人這一個部分你要一定要加強好不好時間在你你請回因為彭主委我剛講的那個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13295.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13324.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
畢商這一個部分你的這個加強管理是不是你能夠你具有幾個方法你在事後再給我做一些這部分的報告好不好可以這個個人畢商他們場外交易的這樣子的方式完全是現在我們看到的VASP這樣子的管理所沒辦法約束的而現在個人畢商這個才是真正兩大重點第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13325.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13350.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
詐欺他們詐騙集團使用最通行的方式個人避傷第二個洗錢如果有這種犯罪集團要洗錢大概都他不會去找你已經納管好的那25家他一定是找個人避傷這我相信你我大家心裡都非常清楚好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13350.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13353.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
加強對個人避傷的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13368.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13388.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我還以為你去熊本了謝謝昭偉各位委員、初列席、官員大家好其實昭偉很想去日本但是因為在會期當中我們要去看事辦事那我們等會議結束以後再來看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13389.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13405.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
實際的需求有需要的話我們再安排來召開因為這是研會所以我們還是照會裡的規定可以怎麼做就怎麼做是不是可以請主委邦主委好 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13411.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13440.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
其實今天講到虛擬貨幣等等的這個交易情況請問在美國方面有沒有發行虛擬貨幣的ETF的交易項目有,美國確實現在已經開始在做比特幣的ETF交易所以比特幣到底在台灣是一個合法的商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13441.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13442.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
現在比特幣在台灣交易是合法還是非法? |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13470.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13492.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
是合法還是非法?現在是合法,只要滿足我們洗錢防制的規定所以現在是合法,那請問未來會不會是非法?這個的話,我們目前沒辦法做這個預期,不過我們也是看國際上的情況今天是合法,那請問明年是不是合法? |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13494.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13513.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
其實這個不管商品工具它本身中性它如果說今天如果說它有產生什麼問題或怎麼樣那我們會隨時動態的來做這樣的調整所以主委這樣聽起來的話就是比特幣它是合法的那如果非法的是詐騙集團是犯法的才是犯法 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13515.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13539.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
違法的人才是犯法嗎?就是標的物本身它本身是中性但是它如果說今天拿來做不法的利用或不法的這個就有可能是涉犯違法的事情好的 很多的委員在討論剛剛主任您講說美國已經合法也公開發行ETF的這個項目那請問還有其他什麼地方是允許 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13541.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13553.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
虛擬貨幣是可以上市、買賣的還有哪一家?還有哪一個國家?我知道可能還有加拿大、澳洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13558.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13577.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
也有完全禁止的其實有很多人在想說那日本到底有沒有日本沒有可是在我們上次考察的時候我們看到整個東京附近的看板都有很多歡迎比特幣交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13578.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13593.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
比特幣交易是一個用ETF在公開市場上買賣又是另外一回事這是因為ETF我們是大部分的投資人有可能會買得到是所以很多的情況沒有深入去了解大家也不知道不過在 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13595.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13621.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
幾年前的考察當中其實考察每個委員會都有那在幾年的幾年前的東京的考察我發現銀行局的局長那時候是莊局長是莊局長對不對上次是邱局長的時候後來回來身為副主委回來寫了一大篇的報告大家覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13622.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13649.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
非常有參考性那這個證券交易所也是特別有專門收集然後也做了很詳細的報告特別在這裡跟主委講我們證券交易所居然比我想像的還厲害跟日本的東京證券交易所往來非常的密切不然的話我們請是不是請臺灣證券交易所 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13656.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13679.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
林董事長你好委員好你今天照理說應該是要關心很多的新股的上市比如說今天來講今天有哪幾家是上市順利掛牌的今天來義有沒有來義來義有吧有有有對而且聽說是台商是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13680.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13702.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那今年的上市情況如何?掛牌數今年的上市情況都是去年的現在掛牌的都是去年申請的啦有沒有打標啊?有有有有打標齁?我看臺灣政經交易所這幾年齁好得不得了 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13703.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13714.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
去年EPS是幾塊?7.8今年會不會跟去年一樣?或是甚至會超過?會超過預期會超過以現在的熱絡情況那你看 主委 打仗缺錢喔臺灣政經院交易所很有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13728.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13740.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
據說現在帳面上的現金應該有超過一百億以上吧是 超過有沒有兩百億以上有大概是F4裡面最強的我們雖然說強 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13744.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13769.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
搶的時候更應該要多多考量未來的變化增加每一個人的體質每一個都是驍勇、善戰剛剛舉這個例子台灣如果在我們彭主委他的未來的一個願景台灣是必須要跟國際接軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13771.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13793.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
外國能做的我們台灣也必須要有這個能力可以做啊怎麼樣來取代香港怎麼樣來取代新加坡甚至日本請問日本有沒有發行虛擬貨幣相關的ETF沒有沒有現在還沒有現在還沒有那日本的比特幣他們是怎麼交易的 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13800.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13810.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
臺灣是在抄7-11也可以買得到吧?是不是?還是萊爾富?他的通路究竟是在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13814.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13836.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
因為我們交易所現在還沒有參與這個業務的規劃也多了解一下啦因為做最好的準備迎接任何的挑戰希望進退我們都有一個分寸有一個準備好謝謝那請問彭主委好了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13838.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13848.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
因為台灣政經教育所最近探權的事也比較忙我們改天再好好來談這個事因為這個迫在眉睫探權的問題一定會討論到 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13850.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13879.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
主委現在台灣現存的交易通路是用什麼樣的方式在做交易現在台灣也有交易所剛剛我們提到我們現在VASP它裡面的這些的我們做洗房登記的業者有交易所也有剛剛講的時候比如說ATM也有實體的店面還有像我們的托管的服務商這些都是我們很多種類型剛剛講我們的交易所其實上就可以在上面做交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13885.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13897.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
請問我們的態度歡不歡迎國外的企業來台灣設立交易所我們現在的話就是所有的外國一定要落地要適用我們相同的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13899.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13922.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
所以原則是不排斥囉?對,我們法規是有這樣的一個設計那如果全世界最大的也來台灣設立據點,各位支不支持?這個我們就來看,因為那個條件我們是一致的,我們就會進行來按照我們的現在原則來審核有沒有負責人他的最終收益人以及國籍的考量? |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13923.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13944.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
這部分的話我們可不可以請我們現在那個審核的單位可不可以來做個說明一下謝謝報告我們現在因為個案來送進的時候我們就會看他的背景是誰如果是香港人可不可以我想因為沒有國籍上的判斷那如果有需要的話我們會請陸委會來表示意見是那如果像日本人也可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13945.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13961.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
因為如果你是外國的避傷的話當然他可能是外國人但是他因為要台灣落地的時候我們就要審查他的因為現在大家覺得大陸有時候一講到大陸就是先怕三分如果是大陸人士來申請可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13961.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13961.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
主委就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13987.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14001.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
在你的願景當中因為你剛剛來那過兩年以後你希望看到台灣的整個金融發展會呈現怎麼樣的面貌 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14002.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14023.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
謝謝委員我想這個面貌每個人都有想像我希望就是說我們台灣金融市場在持續穩定的基礎上面能夠有更大的發揮的空間就是說我們落實我們安全與這個發展並進的金融市場如果開放跟保守你會選擇哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14025.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14053.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
我覺得在很多安全上面我們必須保守謹慎但是對於未來新的機會以及發展我們必須要大膽的設想但是還是要回到一個安全的基礎上我記得過去那個沙盒的部分積極的要推動結果沙盒通過到現在剩下哪一家還在做的現在沙盒確實遇到瓶頸但是我們現在會強化在我們的事辦的部分我們未來會推出新的辦法希望這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14056.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14056.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
謝謝主席,我們請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14083.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14110.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
委員好彭主委好彭主委我今天想要請教主委因為現在詐騙的手段日新月異我們也看到有關第三方支付這個部分其實在去年一場基層檢察官的研討會當中就有檢察官在大力的砲轟說偵辦第三方支付洗錢案 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14111.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14134.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
那因為我們這個金管會針對這個第三方支付的這個部分其實好像也沒有什麼管理啦就是針對在那個這個日均代理收付營業額20億以下的這個業者不用比照金融機關來監管所以造成說這個第三方支付成為這個詐騙的溫床 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14136.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14149.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
所以我想請教彭主委未來針對我們這個第三方支付你們要怎麼去做管理確實喔就是我們在當時在做我們有兩個就是一個電子支付一個是第三方支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14150.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14171.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那金管會是對一個金融機構進行管理所以假設第三方支付它的型態非常的多而且它是我們一般商業的模式所以我們採用是一個量能的管理當你達到一定量以後它的影響力達到一定程度以後我們就納入電子支付的管理那現在第三方支付是由速發部在進行管理是所以到底有沒有在管啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14172.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14173.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
虛擬賬戶一天可以跟銀行申請數十萬筆的虛擬賬戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14193.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14208.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
如果說一般的民眾他受騙了報案也許在第一時間可以將這個虛擬賬號給阻斷可能就是先凍結可是這個詐騙集團他也許他有幾十萬個或者是這個好幾萬個這個虛擬賬號那這樣子你們怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14213.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14227.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我們現在對虛擬帳號因為我們也注意到了就是它是一個常常會作為利用不法的這個規定所以我們對這個要開設虛擬帳號我們其實也現在也沒那麼簡單所以我們會有一定的規定那細節我可以請銀行局局長跟您說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14232.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14248.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
第三方支付因為他常需要虛擬帳號那其實第三方支付數位部這邊也有一些洗錢防制的規範所以第一個他要去跟數法部那邊先做量能登記如果他沒有做量能登錄的時候他再跟銀行開戶的時候銀行會拒絕他開戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14252.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14276.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那針對已經是銀行客戶的時候銀行他也會去看說他有沒有跟速發部做量能登錄如果他沒有跟速發部做量能登錄的話這個虛擬帳號的服務銀行會停止好 那我想問一下就是說從你們這樣子的一個作為之後那這個詐騙的數量你們自己有去統計嗎就是透過這個第三方支付或是虛擬帳號這個被詐騙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14280.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14298.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這個數量有減少嗎?好像也沒有欸報委員因為整個第三方支付如果他的主管機關是速發部那我們是覺得因為透過這樣子的虛擬帳號的管理的時候其實是可以適度的降低啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14300.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14320.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
所以你們覺得說是有效的降低這個詐騙可是真的我希望說主委針對這部分可能需要再跟也許你們跟訴發部這邊也要有一些溝通就是說我們主委這邊我們可能需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14321.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14347.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
有效的去監管那也需要抒發部這邊來協助另外我看到就是說其實在這幾年當中尤其警政署也有特別統計就是說在六都之外詐騙發生數最高的縣市依序是彰化縣跟雲林縣在這幾年當中就是說有一些長輩他可能連自己的退休金全部都投下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14349.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14365.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這個投資詐騙也好或者是虛擬帳號的這樣子一個就被轉出去了甚至我在最近聽到一個老師他把他所有畢生的積蓄、退休金全部都投資在這個投資就是網路投資的這個網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14367.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14390.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
當中然後就一下子個好幾百萬就轉出去了所以我是希望就是說金管會針對這個第三方支付虛擬帳號這部分我覺得應該要再更加的嚴格那另外我覺得說金管會不論是跟速發部也好或者是跟這個警政單位我覺得應該大家都可以有一些配合啦因為真的我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14391.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14408.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
詐騙真的是無所不在而且真的是這個手段真的是越來越新我上一次在那個內政委員會就有特別提到用名人來在網路上面就是投資投資詐騙的這個手段讓一般的民眾會覺得說這個名人也許就是張忠謀也許是謝金河 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14413.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14436.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
所以這樣子我覺得說金管會在這個第三方支付或者是虛擬賬號我覺得如果說可以再嚴格一點的話也許可以阻斷源頭是是我們會來努力就是因為這這個一項就是我們在在做主柵工作上的重點對我們會來那個委員的指正我們會來請請同仁繼續努力好好謝謝好謝謝黃秀芳委員的諮詢請借用請邱志維委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14452.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14477.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
好 謝謝主席我請金管會彭主委有請彭主委委員好主委你好所以按照你今天的報告我來幾個問題請教是說你們分階段來針對這個VASP的這個做一些的管理第一階段大概已經完成了嗎現在在進行中在進行當中對所以第一階段目前就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14478.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14496.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
你的辦法已經發布了對現況做一些的盤點那第二階段大概什麼時候開始啟動工會明天成立明天成立你那工會的規模大概有多少現在就是25個會員25個強制入會嗎應該都要參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14503.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14530.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
就是說你現在有在執行這個業務或者執行相關的這個行為者他會強制入會?對,業必歸會,他應該成立商業工會他們就要加入好,那這個他有一個自律規範嗎?成立以後就請他們加速的訂定自律規範那這自律規範是他們定的還是你們給他知道的?我們會共同來努力好 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14531.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14548.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
所以在未來第三階段你要進行差異化管理差異化管理的主要是說它的經營的業務範圍不同它的交易型態對那如果對於個人的避傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14551.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14567.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
個人避傷的定義是什麼個人避傷就等於說我們是一個事業或人員那個人避傷來講的話他本身是個商他就要做商業登記跟稅籍登記這樣的一個人他才可以從事我們的那個人避傷的定義你有明確化嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14571.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14595.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
這個東西會有個執法因為未來這個 假設這個條文修正以後他有一個授權執法會來定這個標準是我們金管會來定金管會的哪一個局處來定正期局正期局來定那現在說這個他目前的你們現在這個辦法裡面他對於這個業者定義說以國內設立登記者為限 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14599.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14619.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那如果是在國內登記呢?他所有的跨境他要在國內落地按照我們的規定來辦理所以只要在國內登記的他就必須要按照相同的規定包括法尊的醫務等等吻合我們所有洗房跟反滋恐的要求那如果他境外未登記然後又實際從事業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14622.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14649.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
那你要怎麼去監管它?這個確實剛剛有委員提到因為這個網路無國界跨境上面的就是我們假如它不在境內那境外的難管無遠無界是的這個確實是全世界各國監理官的挑戰但是這個未來可能要透過跨國界的合作來解決這個問題跨國你要跟每一個國家去合作至少我們對境內的東西一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14650.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14655.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
要把它做好我們能不能推論它境外它就是規避一些相關的責任嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14657.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14683.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
境外的話就是要有國人原因而且國人的風險也大嘛因為他沒有辦法被納管對 這個確實是讓我們很多境外金融所以很多詐騙就從此產生這我們盡量來防止如果你加入工會你又是在國內登記 對不對那當然你是納管納管就沒有問題你有任何不法行為一定遭受這個主管金管嚴厲的制裁不管是這個法務部或者金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14684.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14702.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
但如果有機會我們就好像似乎拿他沒轍這個是全世界面臨的問題比如說我今天一個人他跑去美國網站買他的保險那確實是在這個我們的本國法是沒辦法禁止國恩做但是我們會不斷的宣導說你這不受本國的相關保護的規定而且你成本會很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14704.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14730.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
國內納管是小那境外的這個取締或者是怎麼樣防避防止在境外的詐騙這個才是重點這個是我們整體的打詐的裡面要注意至少比如民眾的試詐還有他的防詐知識的提升對於風險意識的提高這個都是我們未來要努力的方向所以第三階段什麼時候會開始啟動呢第三階段其實我們現在的法案已經送進了立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14731.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14759.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
其實不要分階段就是同時進行是但是就是說因為這要我還以為你們有這個時間序的那第1階段你要針對這個虛擬資產管理專法來立一個法是的那這個專法裡面有沒有包括對境外的管制者總統這個我們會考慮到國際的趨勢我們在整個專案研究裡面會把比如說主體的要求以下行為的規範這些東西我們都會考慮到這個專法你們現在委外要研究其他國家的做法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14760.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14780.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
目標你這個專法什麼時候可以出來我們剛才那個時程預計就是說我們希望年底我們內部有個草案出來可以公告可以預告收集意見我們的時程是預定到明年的六月的時候能夠報行政院明年六月另外一個小小提醒深層式的AI金融紛爭的時候證據保全的問題那這個金融機構這個可能問銀行局 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14788.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14789.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
金融機構如何做到證據保全? |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14800.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14824.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
報告委員我們前一陣子有做過一次調查目前對於採行深層次AI來做各式業務程序的管理上面他們其實是比較保守的那未來會成為一個趨勢嗎對那將來如果他們會運用的時候我想基本上他們一定先希望是不要涉及到客戶的資訊可能是內部流程很難避免吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14825.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14852.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
你未來越發展的話很難避免吧對那這邊因為我們也有一個生成會有一個AI的一個指引那所以到時候各個金融機構在採用這樣的技術的時候也會依照那樣的指引來辦理那順便問一下那個新欽案方案所產生的弊端包括這個人頭戶包租混淆問題我想這個銀行局也應該了解那待會的管理這是銀行局的業務還是檢察局的業務那個主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14855.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14873.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
如果是強化新清安方的成為不要讓他成為這個房價炒作的一個幫兇啊新清安的部分呢假設是銀行的行為當然是金管會但是他整個政策應該是財政部這邊主政那如果是貸貨管理這是財政部要針對他所屬的銀行 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14874.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14891.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
就是我們從一個風險角度帶貨管理這是我們我們也要關注的點所以是銀行局還是檢察局銀行局是銀行局對這部分如果銀行局介入的強度應該會比較強吧他有他一定的SOP啦這部分其實銀行在這個發銀行聽到銀行局就害怕了 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14893.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14907.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
他有5P、KYC、代後管理都是他們標準的程序我們現在討論是未來可能發生的問題但是未來可能發生的問題遲早都會發生所以我們應該在這個主管機關應該是未籌摩、提早因應謝謝主委、謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14916.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14944.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
謝謝邱志文委員的質詢接著我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接著我們請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員也確認不在好今日我們登記發言委員均已達選完畢本次的會議做如下的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14946.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14965.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
第一,報告及詢答完畢二,委員的質詢,為其答覆或補充資訊,請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另有要求其限則,從其所定 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14966.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14992.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
委員楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會予以書面答覆第四點本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理好 散會不客氣 |