| IVOD_ID |
159964 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159964 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T10:56:52+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T11:16:31+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:39 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce966737ed167142d479a8b3a3b5782fdd2eb6e21b32d8c6be2d0461bc9268856f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳思瑤 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:56:52 - 11:16:31 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席在我進入質詢之前我也有權宜問題要表達一下我非常支持剛剛主席所裁示還有王洪瑋委員所說的如果說來列席委員會被尋的官員要經一定程序的請假這是尊重委員會也是尊重召委所以今天如果有部分的官員沒有尋這樣子的程序是到現場主席剛剛召委才說才知道請假的話那當然不應該 |
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要檢討那要譴責我也保留我也覺得OK啦這是共同的決定那同樣我就要想到4月2號那一天上週三我們的排案召委叫做莊瑞雄委員他排案的是國會擴建簽件的進度報告邀請列席的官員是周萬來秘書長以及議事處的高百祥處長而當天呢 |
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現在坐在這裡的是吳昭偉 當天是莊瑞雄委員他七點就坐在這裡等著開會了到開會前 他手上拿著出席名單還是周萬來秘書長跟高處長 沒有請假 沒有請假所以我們的委員都很認真提早到場準備諮詢可是呢 居然會議時間開始昭偉才收到一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
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韓國瑜院長燙金的一個書函替周萬來秘書長請假所以如果比較這個標準當天當然在場的委員會的委員當然多數是民進黨的委員我們認為這就是不應當就同樣的標準居然是比今天的狀況還離譜喔主席還是今天到場的時候請假單已經有就是說已經有載明哪些人沒有辦法來 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
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當天的狀況是我們都在這裡請假單沒有周恩來要來 高百祥要來可是主席在那裡要已經宣布開會才姍姍來遲的一張還是由院長替秘書長請假 |
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這當然該譴責 同樣的標準當然該譴責 更何況當天韓院長的請假函居然是引用立法院各委員會組織法第二條為了替周恩來請假 什麼離譜的法條都可以來硬掰胡扯 |
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意思是說他當天引用的法條是說以後 我講白話文以後委員會排案審查的議案必須是由院會交付如果這樣成立的話主席今天沒有辦法排這個案欸因為這個專案報告並沒有經院會交付欸 |
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立法院每天各個委員會因應重大的事件因應大家關心的議案 召委的排案權當然可以排專案報告就如同今天吳召委所排的案子應當好好探討言論自由啊那為什麼當天韓國瑜院長為了護航周恩來為了護航義士不公的人員然後引用錯誤的法條 |
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給予他們不用來規避迴避監督的這個保護傘更進一步的剝奪了立法院委員排案的職權審議議案的職權如果那天韓國瑜院長引用的法條成立的話今天很遺憾啊這個專案報告沒有院會交付也不能排啊 |
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所以不要來剝奪立法委員的排案自由不要來剝奪立法委員的言論自由所以我同樣一樣的標準該譴責今天沒有經請假程序就沒有來的官員該譴責該檢討但是當天 |
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更加的嚴重離譜的開會之後才讓教委收到一張燙金的院長代替請假以後請問可以由卓院長行政院長在各個委員會開會當天然後現場提一個卓榮泰院長替法務部長鄭明謙請假卓榮泰院長替我們陸委會梁文傑副主委請假不能這樣嘛 |
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293.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以就程序 論程序 該譴責就譴責 標準一致就如同我今天要講的言論自由一樣好 謝謝主席 不好意思我表達了我的意見那沒問題 就這個部分我想說我這邊會思考一下看將來沒關係 我們都尊重您的採釋我只是說大家委員會標準一致今天各位委員的發言我也都尊重那我們的委員會是這樣 因為我當召委就是部會首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
294.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
316.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
不是不能請假 如果真的有事情當然是可以請假那我們以後大概就是一個方式嘛就是我們可能多久前告訴我 然後讓我了解一下理由就這樣就好我從來不會認為不能請假而且我對於制度的要求就是一體適用不管是我們立法院的同仁或者是其他院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
317.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
337.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
同仁都一樣就是一體適用非常謝謝主席不愧是檢察官所以我相信你一定會支持當天立法院民進黨團在這個會議上譴責周萬來的提案一體適用我們先定一個制度出來我們先講定一個制度以後就照那個制度走那如果之前沒有那個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
338.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
339.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
其實今天談的主題就跟我剛剛說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
357.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
372.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個立法委員的排案自由也不容剝奪那言論自由也不是無法五天立法委員的排案自由不可剝奪但是他會受限於一些當然如果有法規排除的就不宜列案嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
372.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
391.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
但是言論自由一樣不是因為它是自由就可以無法無天它同樣要受制於法規的規範所以鼓吹戰爭仇恨及暴力都是法所不容就是世界皆准的不是只有在台灣我多次在委員會分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
410.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
吳思瑤我個人從政是因為鄭南榮先生的自焚那時候我十多歲爭取百分之百的言論自由在那個時代對於一個青少年吳思瑤來講我是無比的震撼因此在公共事務的堅持跟捍衛上我們要爭取百分之百的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
411.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
430.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是呢以剛剛國民黨的委員的發言我真的要很遺憾的說當年鄭南榮先生之所以選擇非常極端的手段結束了他的生命來捍衛彰顯台灣需要言論自由當初他對抗的就是執政的威權獨裁的中國國民黨到今天我要說言論自由有兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
436.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
458.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
一種是絕對的言論自由人權的言論自由另外一種是被政客政黨濫用以政治為目的來操作的言論自由就這個標準來看大家心中有個判準今天剛剛大家都垂詢了陸委會的副主委我要說中配也有兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
459.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
475.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
一種是在台灣釋放的 支持武統血洗台灣的這種中配當然依法規 我支持公權力來執行另外一種中配是復查 柏中你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
477.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
494.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個出版社的負責人他是中配他在台灣就因為出版了他的出版社出版了一些中國不愛不喜歡的出版品他到中國去被抓被監禁前陣子被判重刑他沒有經過公開的審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
496.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
517.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
陸配有兩種國民黨人為什麼支持的是要血洗台灣鼓吹戰爭的陸配而我沒有看到國民黨的任何人出來聲援支持復查他同樣是陸配他在中國遭受的司法迫害國民黨人沒有人站出來替他說話所以說國民黨沒有變 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
520.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
548.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
本質上沒有變把言論自由拿來作為政治操弄的工具這一點沒有變但國民黨某種程度也變了過去的國民黨反共現在的國民黨不反共我今天所說的任何話是我的言論自由我願意受公平這是言論自由的範疇但是我沒有逾越任何法律的規範下頁部長您知道有國有器官這紀錄片嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
551.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
564.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
很抱歉我沒有看過這一部紀錄片是加拿大的紀錄片花了七年的時間他們拍攝了而且是具體的一個軍醫啊他是親眼目擊者 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
566.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
587.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
當事者他的見證中國為了高官可以延壽為了高官的生命要延長不惜對這些被迫害者多數是法輪功的異議分子進行器官的活摘這部紀錄片拍攝七年前陣子我們都還希望他能夠獲得奧斯卡的紀錄片的提名 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
591.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
618.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那這個紀錄片呢在台灣各縣是播放在澎湖播放的時候受到恐嚇說要如果你敢播的話呢就要給你放什麼樣的炸彈還是什麼的但是澎湖縣政府不受威脅他們認為表意自由言論自由創意創作自由不容被打壓這是在澎湖下一頁但是換了到台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
619.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
645.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
您知道嗎 同樣的一部片在台北市是青年局辦的 本來要播後來就喊咔了同樣的理由是說他們也接獲了恐嚇性揚言要在播放電影的現場進行槍擊投擲汽油彈所以台北市政府就決定喊咔不辦他基本上受到的恐嚇跟澎湖是一樣的我在這裡沒有探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
646.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
669.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
縣市政府的決策但我要說的是兩個縣市政府他對於看待這件事情的立場是不同的這就是判準的自由以及依法執行有不同狀況的判準但我要問如果這一個打恐嚇電話的人說我要來槍擊要來汽油彈這是言論自由嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
671.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
679.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
當然不是言論自由嘛 對不對所以台北市政府就基於這個他認為市民的安全更重要他認為那個當下要喊卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
680.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
709.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我用這個案例來分享就是公權力的指使也就是我們在言論自由如果對於公共利益造成及時危險迫害重大而且是及時的話基於公共利益政府公權力是可以採取作為的所以以國有器官的這件事情台北市政府一度喊卡我非常希望台北市政府能夠來捍衛創作自由讓它可以恢復播放 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
710.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
736.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
但我不評論市政府的作為但我要說的公權力在那個當下他有他判準的因為恐嚇要暴力丟汽油彈槍擊就不是言論自由嘛對不對他就是犯罪嘛我們要預防嘛所以說所謂的國家安全跟言論自由他不是單選題他有很多複雜的問題但是我希望台灣的政治工作者立法委員不要簡單化 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
738.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
765.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
不要政治化下一頁言論自由應有限制是放諸四海皆准我上次也分享過不管是聯合國的公民與政治權利公約或者是聯合國的言論自由特別報告我今天特別找出來的是這個聯合國的言論自由特別報告2001年就頒布了都再一次的揭示鼓吹戰爭仇恨煽動歧視等言論都應當 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
767.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
779.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
在民主的程序下去進行必要的限制國際的規範去這樣下業我今天也花了很多時間我去整理了各國的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
780.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
807.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
德國禁止宣揚納粹的意識形態明確的在他們的刑法來規範面對歷史的傷痕要慎防種族仇恨的意識所以德國的刑法針對這些納粹的言論鼓吹都是有法的規範跟限制也有刑責下一頁看看英國對於煽動恐怖主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
808.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
821.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
也是在特別立了一個恐怖主義法2006年所以任何的煽動恐怖主義行為的言論就屬犯罪這是英國的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
822.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
850.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
要有重罪15年下一頁看看法國他們同樣刑法來禁止鼓吹恐怖主義的行為而且更與時俱進因為現在的社群網路的使用非常的發達它造成的危害是更及時的所以法國甚至進一步的在刑法的修正當中嚴格針對網路煽動或鼓吹恐怖主義的言論是加重刑罰的再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
852.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
874.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
芬蘭在世界都被認可是自由度非常高的自由民主人權的國家但是芬蘭也有長期以來因為地緣政治承受戰爭的這種威嚇所以他們特別在刑法當中針對軍事或政治危機會被煽動戰爭也處以重刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
879.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
896.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這是芬蘭跟台灣的狀況非常接近下一頁日本日本不管是中央的立法仇恨言論對策法或是地方縣市政府對於仇恨言論都有不同程度的立法來予以禁止再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
898.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
923.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
當然我分享過美國最高法院九位大法官已自覺對於TikTok的禁令是核限的他們認為國家安全的風險跟TikTok1.7億用戶的自由權利 孰高孰低他們選擇了國家安全 這是最新的一個判例這些判例都告訴我們什麼呢 夏業 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
924.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
951.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
台灣跟國際接軌言論自由不論是保障面人權面絕對百分之百言論自由的那個面向憲法層次的或是國際公約層次的不論在保障或是必要的限制立法限制針對仇恨戰爭暴力等等都是截然所以台灣的國內法的規範有違逆國際局勢或是台灣有因為這樣就戒嚴了嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
955.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
975.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我希望你們下次報告的時候都可以把國際法規一個一個來分享給國人跟立法委員我說的都對嘛不管今天我們講的兩岸人民關係條例入出國移民法或者是刑法對於暴力仇恨歧視跟鼓吹戰爭就是與法所不容而公權力當然要依法來執法好 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
977.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
999.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我甚至要舉一個大法官釋字623號我們廳長可能比較熟悉他是針對為了防止消敏兒少性交易所以對於憲法保障的言論自由非絕對做出必要的因為他影響兒童的身心發展的重大公益 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
999.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1024.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以必須對言論自由採取必要的限制廳長你有沒有就這個部分簡要的跟大家分享因為大家可能都在講國家安全的那一塊我最後特別針對兒少的這一塊我們過去的大法官的解釋也都告訴我們保障言論自由非常重要但是對於傷害兒童身心發展的也是需要必進行管制的來廳長你可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1025.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1054.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
剪刀剪刀說明嗎最後解釋最主要是針對那個兒少性交易防制條例29條是不是規定違憲做出來的解釋大法官也在闡釋就是說其實這個性交易的這個也是屬於商業言論所提供的訊息相關的廣告這樣子那為了保障他的內容必須是真實無誤導性而且交易目的交易合法為目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1055.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1073.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那所以應該受到憲法言論自由的保障但是同時也揭示言論自由的保障並不是毫無範圍的全部保護的可以用法律來明確規定所以我們的合照相關的法規並沒有違憲嗎它是合憲性的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1073.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1093.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以這是我最終的一個結論我上一次質詢的時候我也拿了這一頁但很不好意思我也很遺憾我的言論自由被斷章取義了被某些黨派的委員去剪成影片說吳思瑤說言論自由要嚴格管制我說的是說對於言論自由的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1094.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1112.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
要嚴格非常嚴謹非常嚴謹的去予以限制他的目的需要為重大破戒市政府利益就如同剛剛的兒少的事件或者是台北市政府針對國有器官他認為公權利益可能會有公共安全的危險對不對而且首都與目的之間必須有重要的關聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1113.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1136.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以我希望透過這些國際案例的分享 國內法規的檢視以及我們大家都能夠判準的一個基礎的紅線我相信你去努力問 不管是賣菜的朋友 還是坐捷運的上班族言論自由是什麼 很重要很重要 言論自由沒有人可以強害在自由民主的台灣 大家都有這樣子的共識 但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1137.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1156.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
有那個自由 不可以去說要台領導幾幾歲啊 不可以說叫我過來打台灣 血洗台灣這是正常的一般的公民朋友 我們的公民素養是非常高的所以謝謝主席今天排這個案 讓我們可以進一步的探討我也希望大家能夠站在法裡面 來看待這個嚴肅的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1158.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1174.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
鄭南榮是犧牲了他的生命來爭取跟捍衛言論自由所以這珍貴的言論自由不能被政治所誤用跟濫用這是我的開場 也是我的結論好 我們繼續加油 辛苦大家 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們接下來休息五分鐘 |