| IVOD_ID |
159948 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159948 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T10:28:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T10:42:15+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:13 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce59e446cc9cc215c979a8b3a3b5782fdd6e4b1f34053c89ded8480a73c251d2965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈發惠 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:28:02 - 10:42:15 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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主席齁我應該是要等一下要請這個我們司法院的列席代表不過今天我們這個來是我們行政訴訟的這個懲戒廳廳長那可能跟我們今天主題我盡量但是因為是司法院有一些牽涉司法院的選擇還是要等一下請這個我們城廳長上台等一下齁那這個我想我們今天的主題齁我們今天主席列的我們這個主題齁叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
39.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
59.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
這個言論自由不在,界限誰說了算,國家介入特定政治言論法律邊界,進行專題報告。這個想法,我想這個,它大概就是,其實它有兩個層次。第一個就是說,在我國現在制度裡面,言論自由的界限在哪裡,這是第一個層次的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
60.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
80.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
第二個是說第二個層次是國家介入特定的政治言論他的界線在哪裡他其實是兩個層次的一個是言論自由廣泛的言論自由另外一個是說政府這個這個國家介入特定政治言論那這個呢這個這個有很多的這個我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
81.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
108.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
主席今天會列這樣子的主題我想應該就是跟這個時事有關要不然為什麼今天不是討論我國宗教自由之界限而是討論言論自由之界限因為主席對於現在的這些時事有一些認為說有一些討論的必要他才會列這個主題所以今天這個主題有很多種討論方式第一種你可以像政論節目一樣的討論你也可以做法學跟學術相當學理上面的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
112.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
131.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
但是這種時事議題你難免你就會牽涉到對於這些政治的評價所以我現在想我們還是先從學理上面來談我盡量希望從學理上來談而不是以政論節目的角度來談那我現在是不是請司法院我們的陳廷長麻煩廷長委員好廷長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
139.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
164.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這個我們有關我國言論自由的界限包括國家介入特定政治言論的這個界限言論自由的界限這些東西事實上在我國的法治上面過去的大法官會議解釋跟現在的憲法法庭判決事實上我們是不是沒有討論過這件事情啊我們主席今天列這個案子是不是說因為我們過去法治上面都沒有在討論言論自由的界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
167.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
185.825 |
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其實大法官已經做了多號的解釋多號的解釋啦,我的PD上面都有寫啦這個大法官做了無數的,對於言論自由界線做了非常多的解釋啦那我們就學理上面來講,我想我們學理大家學法律的應該這個都看得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
187.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
205.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個有關言論自由大概就幾個層次的討論一個是事前審查的問題另外還有一些象徵性的言論像焚燒國旗我沒有講話但是我用動作來表達言論這種象徵性言論這兩個大概不在今天討論範圍內再來就是事後審查是一個重點事後審查目前學理上面大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
206.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
230.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
採取就是這個所謂雙軌跟雙接這個理論這個聽講知道吧知道嘛雙軌所謂雙軌就是非針對性言論的內容跟針對言論性的內容就我不是針對言論的內容的問題的言論自由問題例如說我受刑人能不能對外通信我受刑人能不能對外表示什麼就身份他跟內容無關的另外就是跟內容有關的這樣雙軌對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
232.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
245.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那雙軌裡面我們今天討論的大概就是針對言論內容是限制的今天主席所列的這個這個所謂特定政治言論顯然就是指針對言論的內容那針對言論內容裡面大概學理上面把它分成雙階對不對兩個不同階這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
248.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
275.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
不同階層的言論他的審查到底寬鬆還嚴格是不一樣的對不對一種叫做高價值的言論一種叫做中低價值的言論這個你大概知道吧所謂高價值言論就是什麼呢就像這個有關於政治我們今天列的這個政治、宗教、文學、科學、藝術這高價值的這個要做對於他言論自由限制要比較寬鬆他審查要比較寬鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
303.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
對於中低價值的言論 什麼叫中低價值的言論 像商業的廣告 商業言論啦毀謗啦 像這個猥褻性言語啦 像仇恨性語言這個都是比較低階 這個要做嚴格的審查 對不對是不是這樣子 經理長這個理論你知道嗎所以一個 在學理上面要分得其實很清楚一個是高階的 一個是中低階的啊那我們今天就來看看這個個案啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
304.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
331.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
什麼叫做政治言論什麼叫做仇恨性言論一個是高階的言論自由一個是中低階的言論自由我今天如果說我主張台灣獨立這個是政治的言論對不對這是高階的保護他必須要比較寬鬆我主張台灣獨立這個可以吧但是我今天如果說我主張用暗殺來達成台灣獨立我主張用恐怖攻擊來達成台灣獨立 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
333.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
356.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那這個就不是政治言論了喔這就馬上掉到所謂仇恨性言論對不對對不對好那我今天主張兩岸統一這個是政治言論對不對這個OK這個高階的受比較寬鬆的保護我今天主張學習台灣我主張用武力用戰爭用侵略用暴力 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
358.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
379.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
來達成兩岸統一我主張五統這個就不是政治言論了對不對這跟剛剛一樣他現在就掉進了所謂仇恨性言論了對不對是不是 廷長我剛這樣講對不對這是委員的見解我們尊重一個是政治言論一個是仇恨性言論這是不一樣的就像我今天說 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
380.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
408.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我想跟你交往這是我的言論自由但是我跟你說你若不跟我交往我就打你這就不是言論自由了對不對是不是廷長我想跟你交往我可以這樣講吧我跟任何人都可以這樣講對不對這是言論自由我說你若不跟我交往我就打你這是不是言論自由這當然就不是言論自由了嘛這就是仇恨性的我剛剛講的仇恨性言論了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
409.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
435.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
分得這麼清楚所以不要混淆現在這個案子到底是所謂特主席所講的政治言論還是我剛剛講國際公約裡面所講的仇恨性言論這個要分清楚當然啦這個仇恨性言論這個仇恨性言論什麼樣限制言論自由都應該要有法律依據啦這個剛剛大家都有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
436.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
455.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那我國對於仇恨性言論自由的限制有沒有法律依據廷長有沒有法律依據仇恨性言論我告訴你因為時間如果按照委員剛剛舉例子那可能像刑法有一些的規範行法有一些啦齁另外整個普遍的仇恨性言論有 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
457.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
477.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
有關於公民與政治權利國際公約也就是所謂的公正公約我國是立法院通過審議通過實施的對不對是按照公正公約裡面的第20條第一項任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳因應法律禁止之這個是不是跟國內法等同國內法的效力是是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
479.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
500.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以在國內現在這個案子我們鼓吹戰爭他就是違反目前的國內法這個是毫無意義的因為公正公約我們還立法了立法了一個公正公約的這個經濟社會文化公約兩公約的施行辦法已經把它國內法化了已經把它國內法化了好我們不要講國內法我們再講國際法我們講國際外國的判例在德國德國在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
508.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
511.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
德國在2020年9月有一個叫做尼克斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
513.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
540.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
訴德國的一個案子他去求職結果他求職沒有被錄取原因是因為他在社群媒體上面有一張照片他的後面有一張圖是過去納粹的這個希姆萊親衛隊希姆萊的照片川軍服的照片掛在他後面所以他用這個理由不錄取他結果他訴訟到憲法法庭在德國是連掛個照片都不行納粹照片你比個納粹手勢都不行為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
541.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
556.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這就是我講的仇恨性言論美國最近2025年1月17他們聯邦最高法院就直接他們就說有關TikTok不賣就禁他不違反憲法沒有違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
557.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
578.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他的理由是未來現在TikTok在收集的這些個資會危害到未來如果我們跟中國發生戰爭的時候危害到未來戰爭上面的危險他不是現在立即的危險喔他是針對未來的危險我現在就可以禁止所以這都非常清楚了所以在這次的這個案例 亞亞這個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
580.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
602.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們大家在講 居然還有人跳出來把言論自由針對言論自由把政治性的這個言論跟這個仇恨性的言論分不清楚我剛剛講的我主張台獨是政治性言論我主張用恐怖攻擊實現台獨這不是政治言論我主張統一是政治言論我主張戰爭武力學習台灣武統這個不是政治性言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
610.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
612.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以我們來看看這次這個案例齁這次這個案例我看一下齁這個網紅齁網紅他在網路上講說大陸武力統一台灣已經不需要其他理由這是他講的他說這個實質不武統這是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
637.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
648.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他說希望四川艦隊軍功利第一這就是收復台灣這就是武統啊這就是武統啊現在我請陸委會請回這個廳長請回我請陸委會梁副主委你在上來的時間我闡述一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
657.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
681.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你在飛機上面講說我要炸毀這台飛機這當然不是言論自由我在集滿人潮的捷運車廂上面說我要殺光捷運所有的乘客這當然不是言論自由我到鄰居家門口說我要放火燒房子這當然不是言論自由那為什麼我到這個國家來說我要武力學習你這個國家變成言論自由呢為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
685.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
710.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主委這次這案子這三位網紅他們有沒有中華民國的國籍他們有沒有領中華民國身份證他們沒有中華民國的國籍只有居留他們只有居留嘛換句話說第一個我們所討論的層次有關於國民的所有的保障跟他們都還沒有關係對不對他們還不是國民嘛對不對是對他們只是居留許可而已是根據兩岸人群關係條例的居留許可對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
712.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
738.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這就好像住在你家裡的人如果是你兒子你老婆他是家人如果是你朋友從南部上來住在家裡你說可以我可以住你家嗎你說可以那你就是拘留嘛對不對但是你今天是我兒子你來住我家裡那你是家人啊那你今天一個客人你說一個朋友說我來住你家你說好到你客廳以後說我要放火燒你家我要殺光你全家 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
739.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
751.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那我說我沒有打他我只說不好意思我就不讓你你就不要住在我家請你出去這是不是很合理是那我們這一次我們這個撤銷居留許可是不是就是這樣的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
753.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
772.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
對我們來說就是任何人如果他只有居留身份的話所以他實際上並沒有辦法和中華民國國民做到同樣的權利義務沒有錯所以他如果只有居留身份的話那我們就是根據兩岸關係條例處理沒錯 我們這次所有都是根據兩岸關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
773.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
783.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
兩岸關係條例上面的規定所做的行政行為根本就不牽涉到言論自由的問題對不對所以我想最後現在這社會是似是而非的這樣的說法這概念這麼清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
796.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
820.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
北一女還貴為北一女的老師說什麼我們把中國視為境外敵對勢力那我們家人住在大陸我的親人住在中國我的親人變成境外敵對勢力講這種沒有常識的講法二次大戰的時候你有去跟蔣介石講說你為什麼對日宣戰我有家人住在日本啊你為什麼把日本變成敵人那我的家人不就變成敵人了毫無常識啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
826.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
851.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以這一次這個就是一個照妖鏡這就是海水退了你就知道誰沒有穿褲子在這個時候這次這三個網紅的案子跳出來講言論自由的人請大家就看清楚他們有沒有穿褲子以上好 謝謝那我們先做那個會議的程序宣告稍後再吳世耀委員詢問完畢後休息五分鐘那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言 |