| IVOD_ID |
159945 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159945 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T10:17:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T10:34:56+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:21 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdcebca83aca4b315d32a9dd72f8e909e2236e4b1f34053c89de2904d3b4743e67c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王育敏 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:17:35 - 10:34:56 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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王玉明委員質詢邱政經委員質詢完後我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席我要先請我們審計部的副審計長李順寶副審計長王委員好 |
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副審計長你好我想就教你我們審計法第21條的規定是什麼審計法第21條主要規定說審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得踢除追繳制 |
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得剔除追繳資嘛那請問你們根據審計法第21條你的去認定他的違法需不需要經過司法機關還是審計部就可以進行認定 |
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要看個別的個案的案情像有些案情他其實他涉及刑事責任刑事責任就包括從檢調的偵查處理然後最後提起公訴然後進入法院的審理因為那個相關的案情會影響最後 |
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財務責任如果他有涉及財務責任他的範圍跟金額另外一部分是監察院他如果已經立案調查他那個調查結果也會影響我們對相關剔除金額的判定 |
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有沒有你進行認定的 有審計部進行認定的過去你在監督中央跟地方 有嘛 對不對那另外跟委員特別報告就是說我們21條訂的這個條文的背景當初是在民國60 我印象中是60年的時候訂的當時因為對個別公務人員他的 |
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行政救濟跟保障的相關法制比較不健全那當時沒有相關的法制但是現在我們如果直接採剔除去處理其實在實務上會有很多困難因為剔除去處理的話根據審計法78條規定是要限期追繳也就是說我們苛責機關因為我們是追繳對象是要機關去追繳限期是三個月 |
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169.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
然後機關要做出行政處分那現在的法治這個行政處分到個人到公務人員身上他會尋各種救濟程序包括保訓會包括訴願然後行政法院訴訟那個就會拖很長實際上就會有這個問題所以你們就變成不敢使用嗎不敢使用剔除嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
170.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
187.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
還是很多案情非常單純好 那我就要直接問你了針對這一次整個救安基金違法使用這個七千多萬你們一開始在認定上面是用途規定衛福也就是違反了它原來的使用規定對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
189.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
202.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
曾經用過這個文字不是曾經你們一直到昨天下午的2點55分送出來的4月8號2點55分送出來的報告其實都還是用途未符 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
203.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
217.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
一直都是這樣子但是在4點37分的時候我們收到的報告突然就改成了關聯性不高你們這個是不是就是關關相護想要去大事化小 避重就輕是要幫勞動部解套 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
220.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
247.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
因為如果是用途未符的話那就是要依據你審計法第21條它已經違反了法令所以依法你們應該是要剔除應該是要追繳但是你們為什麼過去都是用這個現在突然變成關聯性不高關聯性不高有沒有違法呢有沒有違法使用呢用途未符是不是就是違反法令規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
249.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
269.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你知不知道這個名稱被改變了你們審計部有報告誰下令的沒有誰下令是我們在短短的時間改變喔這怎麼可能沒有人下令呢沒有這個是因為我們誰改的嘛你改的沒有我們是重新再核對包括說勞動部要求你改的沒有跟委員報告沒有這是我們自己來做處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
270.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
289.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那你們就是自己審計部的職權 你們自己治降你們的職權啊該引用的沒引用 該剔除的不剔除然後幫勞動部開脫 用一個關聯性不高所以關聯性不高 他就不用剔除 也不用追繳所以就可以重新再去由公務預算裡面來編列 是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
290.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
306.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
不是 那個跟委員報告 其實我們修正那為什麼要改變嘛 你告訴我為什麼用途不符就是用途不符就是沒有按照規定嘛那你為什麼要改變成關聯性不高嘛理由何在嘛 你講一個理由出來是 跟委員報告就是我們在給 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
308.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
334.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
勞動部的審核通知還有歷次勞動部深入內容即使來來來來反反之相關的文字其實這兩個文字都有用到包括用途不符因為你們一直都是用用途規定未符其實你們一開始的措辭還蠻強烈的而且你們還說要追繳要剔除追繳你們回去掉錄影帶在去年底的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
334.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
359.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你們公開在院會接受答詢的時候你們是說要剔除而且要追究相關人員的責任結果到今天委員會正式專案要去討論的時候你們說了你們變成是關聯性不高也沒有剔除也沒有追究相關的用詞在整篇通篇的報告裡面通通都消失了被消失 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
360.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
367.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你們審計部 你們本來就應該要擔負起你們應有的職權為什麼現在變成是輕輕放下 關關相護呢委員 這個違法的事證這麼的明確連謝英勇本人都已經承認犯罪包含在這七千萬裡面結果你們竟然用一個關聯性不高 當事人都承認違法你用一個關聯性不高來包裹這七千多萬 這合理嗎 這對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
387.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
404.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
跟委員報告就是剛剛個案涉及刑責部分如果以後確定判決我還要跟你追究另外一個另外一個就是演唱會的支出這一筆你們為什麼沒有追究呢這個涉案的事情這麼的明顯完全違反使用規定你這個也要用關聯性不高這是徹徹底底的違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
411.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
418.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
辦個人演唱會跟救安基金的使用這個在你們審計部的眼中是關聯性不高而已嗎這不是違法不當使用嗎為什麼不引用你的審計法第21條去究責 去剔除你連這一筆你都不敢剔除你說其他它有一些文宣品 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
431.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
447.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
加減跟勞動部的業務有關請問這一筆呢這花的都是這個整個都在做演唱會的錢啊你審計部為什麼這一筆不敢追究這一筆為什麼不敢挑出來就直接用剔除用追繳去追究個人責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
448.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
458.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
而且你這一筆你有送司法嗎?有送檢調嗎?有送監察院嗎?根本不知道 這個有送監察院這個有送監察院?那既然都送監察院 你在你這個審計的權責裡面為什麼這一筆你不敢主動去剔除?這個怎麼會只是關聯性不高呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
467.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
487.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
根據這個違法這麼的明確影帶製作影像拍攝這些東西跟救安基金的使用用途跟勞工的就業這個會有在你們的審計的看法裡面這個會有關聯嗎這完全不關聯吧所以你的行政權你的審計權現在等於是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
489.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
509.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
放著不敢用嘛如果按照你剛剛的描述就是你要等監察院認定的你要等這個檢調認定的但是我看過你們對於地方政府的剔除啊有一些你們說剔除就剔除啊那我再看司法機關跟監察院的沒有啊那你這是雙標欸怎麼會聽到這件事情就轉彎呢不會不會轉彎不會轉彎要不要剔除涉及司法部分最後確定判決我們還是會追究財務責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
520.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
535.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你這一個部分你都不敢從你審計的角度就是去追究責任你們這個就是輕輕放下嘛你沒有上面的壓力嗎有沒有人來告訴你這件事情該怎麼辦怎麼會一開始你們的態度那麼強硬到現在整個都縮回去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
536.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
551.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們審計部始終如一啦從頭到尾包括你沒有始終如一連報告都去偷偷修改那個字眼了什麼關聯性不高你還你這個審計部我希望你審計部啊各部會有各部會有權責做錯的事情該糾正的該是你審計部的該去剔除的該去追繳的這是你的責任啦是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
557.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
573.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你們要硬起來 這個368.7萬我要求審計部你們要去剔除跟追繳你們回去好好再審議一次啊這個部分為什麼連動都不敢動我覺得這有問題啊不要讓人家覺得你想要護航這個前部長啊我也不希望這後面有人下令啊去做這樣的事情啊因為追繳一定會追繳到許明春個人的責任啊這是他做的全責啊那為什麼謝義勇就是許明春沒有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
586.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
590.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
對 但你沒有引用你的21條去剔除跟追繳嘛我現在在講的是這個嘛 你不敢動用你的審計權嘛這個就是問題啊這個部分我希望這個副審議長你回去跟審計長報告 今天在委員會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
602.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
608.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我就是要揪出有這樣的事情我希望你們該剔除的就是要剔除 該追繳要追繳因為這個是國家的錢好嗎不容是個人去濫用之後又不追繳還要用公務的基金然後來墊付這個全民也不會同意的好你先請回接下來我要問這個勞動部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
629.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
648.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
部長頭號的問題我問你許民村開演唱會的這三百多萬該不該剔除追繳追究個人責任剔除與否這當然是審計的我已經要求他們應該要剔除那站在勞動部的立場呢你這一筆錢你的救援基金就這樣子被濫用掉了嗎要不要去追繳我們從審計這邊得到的是修正檢列 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
654.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
674.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我在問你的立場 部長 不要閃躲你在外面去講話的時候 演講的時候 慷慨激昂 民主側翼來到委員會的時候 要你表態的時候 你都支支吾吾我沒有閃躲 我從頭到尾我們的態度就是尊重審計部的判定從一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
677.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
699.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
從一開始這一份大家現在引用的是審計部的報告來的我們從頭一開始從12月到現在的態度都是我們會尊重審計部的判定尊重審計部的判定審計部說要剔除追繳你就會依法辦理對不對如果審計部他判定剔除的話當然在法律上面我們就會有責任要去追繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
700.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
725.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
對 你會依法辦理這是法律的 就變成是法律對於機關的要求了另外 接下來我要問你高關稅底下的這個衝擊高關稅這個是現在勞工非常擔心的一個問題因為它衝擊的範圍可能可以到2008年的金融海嘯那麼的大但是我看到現在勞動部裡面端出來的措施我只看到一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
726.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
753.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
而且這一項裡面你的雇用安定措施裡面呢你只有補助橡膠製造機械設備其他運輸工具還有零件製造業為什麼是設定這幾個行業你們對外公告的只有這一些你們要去補貼長達6個月減班休息勞工的薪資差了50%跟文說明我們的相關的措施不是只有這一項而已當然不是只有這一項那還有什麼你可以告訴大家來 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
755.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
778.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第一個當然現在包括如果有發生減班休息的話我們其實給減班休息有相關的充電債出發那我們現在也在調整跟檢討包括這些相關的適用的範圍包括適用的對象包括是不是要做相關的加碼那所以現在當然不是只有這個雇用安定措施的這一項你們對外講的就是這一項我們對外講並不是只講這一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
781.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
809.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那還有什麼呢?有補助新年就業計畫嗎?我也沒看到啊有補助公部門擴大金融計畫嗎?有2019新冠疫情嗎?2019新冠疫情所有的措施你們現在通通都有跟王老師說明其實我們現在相關的措施包括對青年的包括對失業勞工包括對可能會減班休息的我們計畫都列出來那我們現在是希望要再把它規劃一個因應關稅的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
811.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
826.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為比方說像這個新冠疫情的時候主要針對的是服務業服務業的勞工可是這一次可能因關稅不只過大他的業別也不同他這次可能是製造業是出口業跟過去是服務業的狀況不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
827.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
844.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以我們要規劃一個因應關稅的版本新冠疫情的時候是556億的救安基金加150億的就業保險基金總共是706億你們現在你說你的高關稅衝擊你會擴大比新冠疫情你的措施還要多結果你現在是150億那請問你是怎麼做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
847.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
872.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我跟委員說明我們目前現在是先框150億但如果還需要還要再擴大的話目前以救安基金跟救阿基金所以你剛剛講的就是假的啊沒有假的為什麼是假的150億為什麼可以做到這個新冠疫情的706億的事情而且還比它多這就是假的啊跟委員說明虛的其實這都要看產業實質衝擊的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
874.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
889.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以表示你們現在還沒有準備好嗎你說有 其實都是只是一個方向而已不是只是方向 現在這些措施我們要規劃一個因應我們現在正在規劃因應關稅的版本所以還沒有定稿嗎 還沒有定案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
891.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
901.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
因為現在的關稅的衝擊我們還要看實際的狀況所以我跟瑋瑜說這包括可能還會有地區別的不同所以還沒有具體方案出來不是沒有具體方案有但是這裡面的情境跟參數我們其實現在還在看現在實質發生的狀況來做要因地制宜那我就問你就是這一次因應2025高關稅的衝擊你的方案會完全比照2019新冠疫情有的一個都不會少而且還會再加碼是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
922.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
945.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
不只是不會要能夠用得上的因為當時真的有些情境是不同的比方說當時很多是服務業現在有很多是製造業所以當我們要來協助製造業可能他會受影響的失業勞工他要去希望雇主擴大去聘用他的時候這也會要看當地因為你很難叫一個台南的勞工他到台北 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
945.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
950.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我知道 還要去因地制宜所以勞工會想要知道你現在因應高關稅衝擊的這個補助的整個勞動部的規模會不會比照至少會有2019新冠疫情這些所有的措施一個都不會多不會少措施都在我們現在是正在規劃經濟跟因應關稅的版本的方案甚至如果需要的話我們還會再加碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
974.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1001.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以都會有我可以這樣講嗎這些措施都在都有這些措施都有這些措施都在那我們現在是要再做因地制宜包括因接下來的情境的這個更精準的設定那甚至需要的話包括擴大對象跟加碼這都是現在正在進行規劃如果你150億不夠的話你下一個階段你的錢要從哪裡來目前確實包括救保跟救安基目前還有一些餘裕 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1003.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1028.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以還是從救安基金來嗎 救安跟救保對 那你的救安基金 那7000萬的追繳就更重要了我提醒你 因為你那邊虧掉了7000多萬 你現在是400多億你比之前的新冠疫情的你的556億還要少所以7000萬 大家都希望 部長 你在這個位置上面要幫老百姓做一些事情要去把它追繳回來 讓救安基金更充實 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1028.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1040.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
跟委員說明要跟個人的追究我想我們是行政部門我們也需要有法律上面的依據當然但是你行政部門的職權也不要晾在一邊不會就是不想去做不會當然不會好謝謝謝謝 |