| IVOD_ID |
159929 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159929 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T09:36:53+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T09:56:30+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:37 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce01ffff5b1b09edb879a8b3a3b5782fdd6e4b1f34053c89de2cdafff4c0ecf7955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:36:53 - 09:56:30 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好 謝謝主席 有請我們陸委會梁副主委麻煩梁副主委移民署來移民 內政部移民署副署長副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
45.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員好副主委還有副書長好我想最近你們在清查陸配的一個資料要求去補交喪失中國夫妻的一個公證書這個在社會上也引起了絢爛大波 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
46.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
69.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
然後認為說這是不是因為亞亞岸才搞出來的一個政治上的一個動作所以我這個地方是不是請副署長你先來做一個說明你們到底這個動作是一個政治上的一個動作或者說向社會大眾來說明一下為什麼突然會有這個動作是 謝委員這事情不是突然在做一直持續在做這是首先先訓明的因為兩岸關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
71.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
98.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
是以單一戶籍為有序的一個交流依據所以在民國93年3月1日我們修正了兩岸關係條例的九條第九條之一裡面有規範要求台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照以避免雙重身份而造成權利異物重疊這個大家知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
98.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
113.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這個大家知道 是啦 2004年有這樣的一個規定以後啊就這個修法的一個目的 那本來就是說你不要有雙重國籍 你也不要有雙重的一個身份那可是呢 我規定了以後啊你說要去叫嘛 證明說我已經註銷中國那邊的一個戶籍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
142.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
執行下來以後2004,20到2008又政黨輪替馬英九又幹了八年的總統,然後又到了蔡總統又幹了八年的總統那現在又到了賴總統,現在又開始了這二十年過了耶你們說他要叫,你們這個事情法律修法以後你們全部都沒有人動 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
143.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
154.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
或者說當初是什麼原因啊有的時候越來越多啊你現在怎麼辦沒有按照法律的規定說你如果沒有補銷的話你會把他的整個身份給註銷的是你趕快註銷你真的趕快註銷來來來 副主委梁文傑副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
161.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
188.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
法律規定 副署長說的是有 單一而已真的敢做這樣 不敢吧這個如果是依法行政的話根據我們九條之一的規定就是當以2004年為界如果在2004年以前取得台灣身份的陸配那他必須在六個月之內繳回他取消大陸身份的證明文件否則就會註銷台灣的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
190.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
216.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那這個是九條之一的明確規定這沒有解釋的空間只是說這個九條之一從2004年到現在已經有20年的時間這20年的時間過去據我知道應該就是說如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳如果有人檢舉說他沒有腳那移民署會採取動作但是現在就是屬於一個比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
221.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
245.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
根據我們的資料做一個比較全面性的查查跟了解那我請教副組長閉角沒有的話就是要註銷副組長講的是說有人檢舉的話就要依法行政那這20年來有沒有任何一件被你們註銷的有因為檢舉不註銷因為這樣的一個原因沒有繳交被註銷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
250.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
277.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有676人676個那你現在還有1萬多個你怎麼辦你現在我在看你現在給的三種辦法看起來是有的選在我看來每一條都行不通每一條都行不通為什麼這樣講呢你說去海基會去申請副本但是當年不是每一個人都是有走海基會的一個流程那你第二個說你親自到中國去辦聲明然後去公證 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
289.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個講得很輕鬆啦有些人根本其實也未必敢回去有政治風險的問題身份敏感的話你叫他回去這個也有點強人所難第三個說拜託親戚來幫忙拜託聽起來聽起來覺得很有道理每一個省規定不一樣有的會刁難有的可能會方便一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
301.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
318.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那你這三條路看起來你說依法行政可是你事實上把人全部都卡在原地那你當事人怎麼辦我的意思就是說移民署你要去正視這個問題啦你這個補件不是問題啦那問題是上面這三種方法我看都不切實際 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
319.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
341.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那是不是可以重新盤點一下替代方案就是說有沒有可能啊你針對說這些早年來台已經定居多年而且這個修法已經20年了嘛那生活比較穩定的這類的一個族群你去設立特別的條款或者去簡化他的一個審查的一個機制比如說你去設置一個信賴保護條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
342.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
370.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
對於居住一定年限以上的那沒有違法紀錄的那是否可以用竊解或其他的方式來做一個處理啦那不然喔你沒完沒了啦副主委跟你講說法律實的沒有解釋的空間我也不曉得這20年到底出了什麼狀況為什麼大家也不去執行是哪一個署長 你的嫁嫁說那個賺到的臉罩 臉沖的都有可能 都有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
371.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
386.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
情勢總會有所變遷可是放在那邊的一個問題的話法律在這裡那你說又撤銷到六百多個那其他人怎麼辦那如果有人嫌棄的呢看那個人不算嫌棄那嫌棄就算衰啊大陸出名的又沒有事那你怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
388.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
413.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
法務委員 依據我們的統計 目前歷年來 獲准在台定居的陸配約有14萬餘人那我們清查的結果 多數已經繳付上司原籍的證明現在你還有多少沒有還有1萬多所以我在跟你講說 你這是走不出的三條路嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
413.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
427.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你沒有辦法處理那些人我們會針對這些尚未繳交上資源及證明文件的或許他可能有因為前陣子的疫情或者他個人的因素比方說他的健康狀態身體 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
430.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
456.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個都早就該做的啦早就該做的事我現在跟你講說好啦你這些都通知他的你也都依法行政的還是沒有我是在跟你講這個我們現在也跟委員報告我們現在的原因就是說如果民眾有無法實際上克服的這個困難沒有辦法順利取得所謂上司原籍證明的文件那移民署設有一個服務的電子信箱然後呢我們22個服務站 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
458.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
479.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
也多開放 讓這些民眾來反映說他的個案的問題我們多整這些問題 陸委會跟海基會 我們來研商如何來尋求一個合理妥適的一個解決方案你跟我們講一波啊 沒辦法換話啦報告委員 其實我們陸委會跟移民署最近都接到很多的陳情電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
481.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
509.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那有些的說他沒有辦法回去拿的理由我們聽起來是比較相對合理但是有些其實並不是那麼合理所以這些陳情的理由五花八門所以最後我們會跟移民署一起會商然後在哪些情況之下我們會認為說他的陳情是有理由的哪些是沒有理由的那這個我們都會來個別的進行幫忙謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
511.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
518.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好 所以其實喔九條一氣子沒有解釋的空間啦沒有交期子就是撤銷啦可是你經過了這二十年喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
519.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
540.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你沒有去做的話 剩下這一萬多個 我們確實政府有責任你也必須啊 這個確實用智慧把這個問題給處理掉了 好不好好 謝謝 時間先暫停那我現在再請我們 文傑副主委請留步還有國安局副局長好 麻煩副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
550.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
570.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我來請教兩位啦,就是說最近溫婕副主委應該知道台灣有一個很有名的歌手Tank,他寫了一些八年級生很喜歡聽的一些歌啦,像比如說專屬的天使啦,給我你的愛啦但是他因為遺傳心臟病,他不得不淡出演藝圈 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
571.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
589 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那有嘗試重出歌壇但是也不理想他在去年的十一月在中國完成了心肝這個同期的移植手術那前兩天他在個人的社群平台裡面表示感謝楚國然後並稱台灣這邊是一個台灣省這個聽起來其實有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
592.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
609.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
心裡頭還是一般人聽了還是怪怪的但是一個需要器官移植沒有去移植他必須要可能生命會喪失的人對他來講的話在這個節骨炎裡面叫他做些什麼我相信他都會去負荷可是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
611.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
639.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
從人道上來看的話這些都很正常可是在醫療上是不是讓這個統戰在醫療中無聲這樣的蔓延這個也值得去思考的問題那其實過去台灣我們也不擔心什麼叫醫療統戰因為我們這邊實在是我們的健保制度還有醫療的一個水準都非常的高可是我們台灣需要器官移植的人他就說你知不知道台獨有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
642.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
668.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
跟我們報告這個數據我們沒有掌握等待器官移植的一萬一千人這一萬一千人裡面如果說叫我叫一般叫這些人為了他的生命去唱一首奪這個盆墨整個中國共產黨甚至於更來壓抑我們自己的台灣中華民國他會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
671.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
690.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這人之常情 我認為他會做 他要活命嘛所以人道之間 這個也是很困難可是共產國家他這個器官的來源 這確實不透明這是很大的一個問題那你接受了這個器官移植以後我相信絕大多數人會接受統戰 這叫人性那這些怎麼辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
694.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
707.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
換成你們的大人也好啦 也說你們比較抱歉 我們旁邊的人 我們好朋友 他是大人 還是他自己要換器官女子他說你跟他說一下台灣剩餘是在外賣 你跟他說我共產黨不好 這樣你也做不夠 這樣不好讓你換 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
711.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
726.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以在死亡的面前,其實人都很渺小過去我們不怕,可是現在一萬一千多人,這你顧不顧得了? |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
731.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
760.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
郭文貴報告 那個如果我們國安單位大概都是以收集相關的一個情緒那你們沒有辦法 我要跟你們說明一下碰到這種狀況這個立場不同的人會很生氣那我相信那一萬一千件以後還是會很多這個真的是醫療統戰這個它就會無聲這樣一直蔓延下去蔓延下去所以你說國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
762.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
772.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
帽子很大 可是碰到這種人性你也很困難你也沒辦法 你可以兩手一攤你說我們再來研議 你能這樣嗎 有辦法嗎這個是一個議題啦 也非常謝謝委員點出來了這相信 面臨到這個問題我相信我們會尋求一個 研議一個方式來處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
791.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
799.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好 兩位請為那個召委 抱歉最後再給我一個一分鐘的時間我請我們保護部部長還有司法院今天廳長有來今天廳長有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
807.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
826.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
委員早我來請教最後一個問題啦就沒有問題要對不起趙委員因為趙委今天開了這樣的一個題目就是說我們這個言論自由是在司法實務中是不是真正存在他的界線在哪裡誰說的算其實本席的立場很簡單啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
827.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
838.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
就是說言論自由當然在但問題是說他的界限啊不會是吳宗憲講的算不會我周恩雄講的算也不會法務部長講的算或者高官講的算那其實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
839.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
864.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們更講說不會是阿貓阿狗講的算那就是說啊 你去看看大法官 你去看看法律它的一個規範到最後都是要回歸到這裡嘛那我要請教的就是說 其實我們從4至509號在講新聞自由445號重新回溯去看集會遊行 避免言論的審查的自由還有4至617號 這一些其實都是在講言論自由那 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
865.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
886.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
今天本席不打算來重複論述這一些啦但請教兩位就是說就是言論自由跟國安發生衝突的時候我們司法跟檢查體系你們要如何去審查你們審查的標準又是什麼這很困難耶那現在大家在看這樣講就是說一個人本來就只有表達他政治上的一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
888.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
901.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
但是現在社會上碰到一個問題 你說主張統一看起來又是言論的一個自由可是如果講說武力動好 煽動戰爭那這一些來看的話 部長跟廳長你們認為這還單純的言論自由嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
907.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
932.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這不事實上這確實是一個問題那4445跟644其實有跨一條線他說有明顯跟立即的一個危險的一個原則那另外最高法院109年台商是3695號刑事判決也是揭示說有明顯的立即危險原則但我想這是一個原則一個揭示那是不是要來再做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
935.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
954.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
明確立法來做一個定義那我想我們這邊我們會納入秀法的一個參考我的意思就是說你政府如果要對於人民的政治主張你要去做處罰的話這要採非常嚴格的標準法律你要非常的一個明確啦我剛剛為什麼要提出這樣子的問題出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
955.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
980.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
就是說你以後碰到這些問題很多人在網路上一定會去做一個發表然後甚至於你現在沒有去做處理的話那你以後碰到的問題還會必須更多那所以本席提出具體的一個建議就是說你針對鼓吹戰爭宣傳你們要決定得很明確你如果稍微跟著鼓吹 稍微跟著戰爭 稍微跟著宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
981.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1010.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你總是要把那個定義把它給界定清楚啊你沒界定清楚的話法律又不明確啊不明確你說我不曉得該怎麼處罰那你就繼續蔓延那每一次發生這種事情的時候社會上大家又來討論法律明確性啊這個明確性的一個原則啊那本來就是法律人的一個要求社會大眾也這樣一個要求可是我們也擔心你沒有去講清楚的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1011.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1035.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
變成說扯到國安啊大家變成對老百姓又產生一個寒產效應這也不對啊這也不對啊所以我建議 喔我講到跌倒了你看這個議題多重要談到這個議題就馬上 欸這個是地震喔欸有喔不是叫我不要問啊 趙偉這樣叫我不要問啊欸叫我 趙偉說叫我繼續啦我今天齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1040.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1042.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
你如果說你模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1043.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1071.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
一天模糊那接下來要審查來來去去你會變成一種到最後後天你會變成噤聲啦這個其實都不是一個民主國家的一個正常的一個常態啦所以我要請教的就是說我們法務部跟司法院這個地方那是不是應該啊 應該啊強化法律的一個明確性啊避免行政跟司法機關的過度的一個解釋聽著 我來請教你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1073.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1093.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
跟委員報告其實大法官也已經明確指出不是所有的言論都受到保障是還是可以用法律來加以限制的那只是需要符合比例原則跟明確性原則那至於怎麼樣來限制那這就是個別實體法的規範必須要符合這樣一個原則那司法院是站在 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1094.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1108.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
最後是適用法律來審查這些法規範來加以在個案中適用所以我們尊重主管機關的立法決定跟貴院的立法形成的自由這樣我主張很簡單雖然我是執政黨的一個立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1110.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1135.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
但是我認為審查政治的一個言論是要以民主價值來當核心而不是以國安的藉口來壓縮空間所以就必須法律讓它非常的一個明確你法律沒有明確的話沒完沒了啦沒完沒了所以我在這邊期許我們司法院我們法務部甚至於我們跟人權委員會這個地方我們趕快去做一個合作推動整個制度的改革跟立法的一個精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1136.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1161.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
否則喔 法律不明確 大家開始都灰了造成司法機關動輒得咎 開始辦一個暗欄的改公哎喲 當成執政黨的一個打手 這對你們也不好啊好不好 這樣最基本的要求可以做到嗎謝謝委員 贊成委員意見 我們當作修法的重要參考我覺得你不贊成也不行 一個人這樣做 這最基本的常識啊好不好 謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1163.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1176.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
謝謝莊委員,莊委員後面非常感動而且認同,後面這一段下一位我們請林倩祺委員發言 |