| IVOD_ID |
15992 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15992 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-31 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
31 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-06T08:30:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-06T13:08:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:38:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc4f41088fe7fdcd9e99e01fa654b137933be8d109af184be4fc0d0dc84ad2f79d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】
二、繼續併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。
（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。
三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:00 - 13:08:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1800.703 |
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1820.799 |
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報告委員會出席委員10人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年6月5日星期三上午9時至12時35分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員審委員發會等12人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1825.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1853.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
列席委員羅維明財等11人列席官員法務部部長鄭明謙等人主席中召集委員嘉賓報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項審查行政院函請審議科技偵查及保障法草案本次會由委員審法會等10人提出質詢委員網美會提出書面質詢決議一報告詢答及大體討論完畢進行逐條審查二明稱第一條之第11條均招案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1854.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1873.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
三．本案審查完具你具審查報告提請院會公決需交由黨團協商因為討論時由中招及委員嘉賓出席說明四．自引數條文部分文字及法制用自用於授權主席及議事人員整理五．委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料會議出面答覆者請相關機關警訴送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1876.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1883.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好我們稍後再處理議事錄接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員歡迎黃委員國昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1886.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1906.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好接著介紹應邀列席官員我們介紹法務部鄭明謙正部長歡迎您以及黃謀信黃常務次長歡迎您那其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那麼本次議程討論事項原列三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1908.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1930.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
因第二案洗錢防治法修正草案及第三案科技偵查及保障法草案．於本週一、週三本會第29次、第30次全體委員會議分別審查完略．今日遠景處理第一案．併案審查、行政院函請審議通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案等 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1930.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1946.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
二案先做以上議程安排的說明那麼接下來我們進行提案說明及報告那現在進行提案說明發言時間3分鐘我們請問民眾黨黨團要不要做提案說明好請那請黃委員國昌進行說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1965.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1994.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席以及在場列席的官員還有委員台灣民眾黨黨團在新的會期第一個會期當中我們就提出了有關於在科技偵查的法律授權基礎這是一個長久以來存在但卻不斷立法延宕的事項在過去這十年來我們看到科技日新月異 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1996.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2023.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
而犯罪集團不管是人民深受其苦的詐騙集團還是常害人民生命安全的黑幫組織還是對我國發動各式各樣資訊恐攻的勢力我們發現到這些犯罪集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2024.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2053.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
他們使用著高科技的方式來對於非常多人非常多社會一般無辜的大眾進行各式各樣的法律侵害但是我們的檢察官我們的調查員我們基層辛勞的警察們卻依舊停留在時器時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2054.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2082.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
用最傳統的方式想要有效的打擊犯罪保護人民的生命以及財產安全這是一個極度不對稱的法律規範狀態我們沒有辦法再繼續容忍讓這些犯罪集團精神抖擻有各式各樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2084.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2105.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
透過高科技的方式來侵害人權但是我們的檢警卻苦苦的用落後的方式在背後追趕也正是因為這樣今天我們所審議的通訊保障及監察法的部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2106.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2134.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
是台灣民眾黨黨團配合著我們在刑事訴訟法裡面增加科技偵查的專章讓我們基層的檢警他們能夠有最起碼最起碼必要的武器可以來有效的打擊犯罪這一件事情已經拖延拖延太久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2135.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2163.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
而在過去這幾年來更有非常多的人因此而無辜受害我們沒有辦法接受不管是在打擊詐欺的犯罪或者是其他涉及到私密影像性剝削的案件當中我們永遠抓的都是車手抓的都是小弟 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2164.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2183.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
根本沒有辦法溯源追到犯罪的首腦也沒有辦法有效的予以抑制予以預防相對於德國刑事訴訟法在科技偵查所採取的手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2185.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2199.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們可以發現台灣走到2024年的今天我們所邁出的其實只是一小步一小步而已我們希望在這次審議的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2201.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2225.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
不管是針對科技偵查的法律授權基礎還是針對通保法在保障人權的前提下給予我們的犯罪偵查機關必要的資訊都是這一次在修法的過程當中必須要立刻加以補齊的事項沒有辦法再延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2227.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2256.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們整個的法制不能夠讓壞人精神抖擻而好人卻在後面累得半死苦苦追趕最後受累受害的是廣大一般無辜的民眾敬請各位委員支持謝謝好謝謝黃委員再請機關代表報告那時間五分鐘先請法務部正部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2263.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2279.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大約會委員會就審查行政院函請審理的通訊保障部分條文的修正草案代表法務部來列席報告並被質詢提供意見如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2280.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2305.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那行政院函請審議的通報法的草案這一次的重點就是增訂網路流量記錄的一個定義網路流量記錄顯示類似網路的雙線通聯那草案規定保持有六種不涉通訊內容的一個記錄來調取那個網路的流量的一個記錄那與那個調取通訊記錄的程序相同基本上就是要法院來合法調取票 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2306.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2329.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那這一次另外就是修正得通訊監察以及緊急通訊監察的一個罪名增加技能因詐欺犯罪倡學徵定的刑法加重施行拘禁戒情加重詐欺等罪新增而少性剝削條例自控防治法國安法反滲透法及人口範圍防治法等相關的一個罪責 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2330.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2347.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
來強化了查緝能量那本草案的修正調取票相關罪名及調取程序在通訊使用者部分修正為檢警可能可可以職權來一個調取那這部分德國刑事署也有規定直接有檢警來直接調取無用令狀 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2348.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2368.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那減少偵查成本。那另外徵定了有關保護國家安全防止而少性剝削或迅速調取資料以避免造成人民生命財產及選舉公正重大危害必要的一個罪名。那檢察官可以依職權或司法警察經檢察官許可後可以調取相關資料。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2369.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2396.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那並明確規範依急迫情形調取相關的一個紀錄之後呢需在24小時向法院補申請調取票那另外配合網路流量紀錄的徵定那草案明定僅有電信業者及指定之公眾電信網路業者才有保存的一個義務而保存流量紀錄的系統建置必要費用是由政府負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2397.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2422.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那本部對台灣民眾黨團所提的修正意見就是有關台灣民眾黨團所提修正草案在網路流量記錄部分是另有定義的但大部分的內容經理包括在本部修正草案的定義之中了那僅就那個域名解析器及域名伺服器協力查詢資源等 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2423.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2441.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
二）的一個紀錄．本部草案留存之網域名稱．其實可以變名了。另草案規定司法警察調取通訊使用者資料需報請解放職備調取．那考量前述原因．能建請由司法警察官亦此前調取．避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2443.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2458.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
增加成本嚴淡辦案的一個效率那另外草案就保存網路流量紀錄之業者範圍擴大至電信業者及設置公眾電信網路者僅有保存義務考量設置公眾電信網路業者規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2459.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2477.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
其技術程序不一．能影響區分．再保存流量的紀錄部分涉及高度技術專業及成本．請電信事業及指定之公眾電信網路業者由此義務就可以了。另外草案內的行政裁判部分因電信 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2478.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2503.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
事業在電信管理法施行後已經完成轉軌了並無特許許可而且該五大電信事業的登記都法定義務不宜就惠子特許或許可建立能以裁罰處罰為矣那現今社會的犯罪大幅轉移到網際網路犯罪被害人的範圍也擴大了齁那查其難度也 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2505.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2527.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
增加希望藉由本次的一個本法的一個修正讓犯罪者不能再多在網路的案出四五雞蛋的稅刑犯罪真正伸張被害者可求的司法爭議以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝部長接下來請司法院刑事廳李廳長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2538.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2560.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
主席各位委員各位先進今天貴院司法法制委員會並按審查行政院函請審議的通訊保障部分條文修正草案及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的通訊保障修正草案本院奉邀前來列席深感榮幸這就本次會議與本院業務相關的部分提出意見不下 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2562.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2579.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
本次通保法應會是因應利用網路犯罪的增加修正調取通訊紀錄之要件並增訂保存及調取網路流量紀錄之規定在通訊保障及預防打擊犯罪的目的下應該可以取得一定的成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2579.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2598.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
行政院版以及台灣民眾黨版在第三條之一都明確的規定網路流量記錄的定義並在立法理由或是在法條的文本裡面明白的說明哪些記錄是不涉及相關的網路流量記錄是不能涉及通訊內容的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2599.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2619.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
另外在修正草案的第11條之一行政院還有台灣民眾黨版都有明確的修訂釣取通訊使用者資料通訊記錄及增訂釣取網路流量記錄之相關要件以及所謂釣取票的必要記載事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2620.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2649.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
另外有關於行政院主要行政院版跟台灣民眾黨版最大的不同就是台灣民眾黨版對於使用要取通訊使用者的資料去改由檢察官保留那有關政院函請貴院審議以及貴院委員所提出的相關草案那都涉及提案機關相關的政策方向以及貴會委員費心研議的所得本院尊重貴院對相關草案的審議之決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2651.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2667.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那最後本院再次對貴院費金修法表達感佩之意以上報告敬請各委員先進指教謝謝各位好謝謝我們李廳長的報告接下來請速發部資源管理師專門委員沈專委報告在嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2674.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2691.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為我們今天還有幾個報告單位還有國家通訊傳播委員會的法律事務處蔡處長內政部警政署的陳副署長內政部移民署科技偵查中心的江主任以及國家安全局第五處的呂處長我們為視情況要請大家來做檢要的報告請 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2696.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2722.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
主席各位委員那今天奉邀列席貴委員會針對行政院函請審議的通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案以及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案等兩案提出書面報告並就此向各位委員請議請各位委員不吝賜教因科技發展利用網路隨行詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2723.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2744.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
各自盜取或治安侵害之犯罪不斷增加且現行通訊保障及監察法在調取通訊記錄之限制及缺乏網路流量記錄保存調取的規定之下除於實務有自愛難行之餘外亦不足因應新興網路犯罪增加之趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2746.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2769.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
法務部擬具之《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》案。台灣民眾黨亦擬具《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》案。其中有關第三條之一網路流量記錄的部分因為流量記錄系指能夠連接網路的設備在網路上所產生的數據量 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2771.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2793.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
因行政院版本及台灣民眾黨黨團版本均符合上該定義,僅差異於紀錄之資料多掛。因此應該要視檢調機構需求而定本部均尊重大院委員會討論結果並持續出席法定主管機關、行政院及立法院召開之相關會議。 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2794.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2800.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
就實務執行部分給予意見其共同聯手保護民眾權益以上報告敬請指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2826.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2846.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士先生本會奉邀列席貴委員會就《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》之審查會議提出書面報告如下進行指教為因應近年來科技發展利用網路稅刑、詐騙、盜取個資或資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2850.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2875.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
自安害侵犯罪不斷增加之趨勢本次修正草案徵定保存及調取網路流量記錄之規定並明定建置網路流量記錄留存及調閱系統相關事項及費用電信事業與設置公眾電信網路者協力義務及處罰規定以有效打擊網路犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2876.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2895.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
被有效查緝網路犯罪或資安害侵案件本會支持行政院函修正草案需依法律分工與政府各部會協力共同打擊網路犯罪以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2896.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2906.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好謝謝蔡組長我們NCC的報告內容非常簡要一個一頁好最後我們請內政部警政署陳副署長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2920.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2935.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主席各位委員先敬大家首先感謝各位委員對通保法及檢查這個涉及警察犯罪偵查工作的關心與重視這個特別表達感謝那就這次修法緊就 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2936.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2955.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
跟本署比較有關的報告如下第一個通保法這個在88年7月14日制定公佈迄今經歷5次修訂那最近一次是在107年5月23日修之公佈為因應近年來利用網路詐騙盜取個資及 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2960.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2985.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個侵害這個網路犯罪等等不斷增加這個已修訂本法關於吊起這個通訊紀錄之限制這個並增訂保存及吊起網路流量紀錄之規定以有效來打擊網路犯罪第二因應網路犯罪即快速傳播滅症的特性為有效打擊網路犯罪以比照這個通訊紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2989.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3009.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
此吊起通訊紀錄的程序明文規範網路流量紀錄的吊起規定就網路流量紀錄之資料類型加以限制並對吊起票內容及申請程序有所限制有利於公益及社會治安並橫平飲食前保障第三吊起 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3011.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3031.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
通訊使用者資料對於隱私權制影響較為輕微以通訊記錄涉及電訊使用人與他人通年狀況還有通訊的形態所在的位置等等所涉隱私程度有所不同為因應網路詐欺日期嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3032.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3056.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
常有金流快速移轉網路逆中即兮禁止受援因此訴法警察機關為偵查犯罪及收集證據確有依職權調取通訊使用者資料之必要第四現行通訊保障及監察法規定犯罪重本刑三年以上有期徒刑之罪使得調取通訊紀錄導致之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3058.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3077.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
案件無法調起資料通訊．這個有礙犯罪調查及真實發現並避免民眾產生主辦大案不辦小案的疑慮以上這個就本史的報告重點說明日上謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3079.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3086.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好謝謝陳副署長那麼其餘機關報告請參閱書面那機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄那機關報告已報告完畢現在開始詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘均不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記現在請登記地位的省委員發會詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3123.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3126.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
主席我們先請政部長有請政部長委員早部長早我們這個禮拜我們司法及法制委員會用了三天的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3139.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3162.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
就針對我們行政院所推出針對國人所關心目前這個詐騙集團橫行我們這個台灣的這個詐欺犯罪的這個成為國人最為困擾以及目前這個這個最對自然擾亂最大對人民這個財產侵害最大的一個犯罪形態 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3164.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3188.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們行政院所推出的這個打詐釋法那我們這個本委員會用三天的時間到審到今天這第三個這個是通訊監察法那這個通訊監察法這個的修法事實上已經一方面倡議已久一方面我們過去也曾有各方有非常充分而且總長的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3191.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3195.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
最主要原因是因為通訊監察一、現在我們像我們這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3199.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3225.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
目前的這些可以說我們說現在的犯罪形態基本上整個犯罪形態犯罪手法犯罪工具他基本上這個在在利用這個現代的科技科技的進步事實上是不斷的推陳出新我們過去說道高一死魔高一帳那這個這個我們的法制如果我們的在法制面上面對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3228.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3247.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個有關相關的這些科技科技通訊的這些相關的偵查手法我們法律沒有予以一定程度的授權的話事實上是沒有辦法跟上這個犯罪犯罪形態更新的腳步所以這個部分在剛剛包括這些立法說明裡面我們也都有都說明很清楚但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3248.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3271.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
今天的這個通訊保障監察法通訊保障監察法他在過去到現在為什麼這麼長時間的討論最主要是因為他一方面對現在這個打擊這個現在一些相關國人關心的重大的治安案件包括詐騙包括其他的許多我們等一下會討論的一些犯罪形態他確實目前這個通訊監察確實是在偵查裡面的關鍵核心尤其是證據取得的關鍵核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3279.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3288.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
但是另外一方面因為這個通訊監察他也對於這個人權保障有一個最密切的關聯因為這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3291.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3315.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
對於這個一般通訊使用者而言這個是否受到監察這是完全無法掌握他不像說跟監不像說其他的這個強制處分的方式偵查手法這些可以讓當事者明白知道因為所有通訊監察都在當事者一定在當事者所不知的情況之下進行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3317.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3322.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以這個部分這個也在社會上引起很多的關注了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3323.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3347.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那我首先就是來請教這個部長你們第一個要必須要跟委員會跟國人說明的就是說為什麼把通訊監察法放在所謂打詐司法裡面他對於目前打我們要偵查打擊這個這個這個我們的詐騙集團的犯罪犯罪形態站著什麼樣重要性這部分我先請部長回答我等一下我請這個警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3348.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3373.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
警政署副署長等一下也現在請上台請部長可以回答等一下警政署副署長好謝謝委員那我們知道現在詐團詐欺的詐團的犯罪是我們所有檢警辦的所有案件的最大宗是佔所謂的而且是這個最被害人是非常多那而且現在一個網路時代的一個興起現在以前詐團都用電話來詐騙現在沒有人用電話了 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3376.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3403.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
現在轉到網路了網路的時代而且他網路也製造很多的一個斷點所以我們現在如果說這個修法不調取我們這個重點就是調取網路的流量的一個記錄如果不調取這些的一個記錄那我想我們真的是在一個偵辦犯罪會變成的落後於整個那個詐團的一些的一個角度我請先請這個警政署齁你說明一下現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3404.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3425.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們這次新增的就剛剛部長所講的一個關鍵的就是調取網路流量這件事情對於在目前我們偵辦上面因為我們現在不行現在目前的現行法令你不能調取使用者的這個網路流量所以他在偵查偵訪上面具體的實例他在哪裡會出現問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3427.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3454.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
在整個詐騙集團的這個犯罪過程裡面在我們怎麼證據取得上面在什麼部份會出現問題現在只要是大家可以看到以前就是前一陣子我們常常會接到那個恐嚇恐嚇的那個E-mail那個訊息結果他都是境外跳板的這個我們是查不到就是造成斷點那有這個法通過我們就可以溯源這個有利於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3455.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3482.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
最主要我這樣子聽起來最主要目前所謂製造斷點這個部分他是不是只有這個方式透過調取網路流量我們才可以包括現在大家全民受害的那個網路詐騙其實都是雷頭網路詐騙也是嘛他也是在我們在偵查的過程中遇到這個這個這個他們所製造的這些斷點我們就必須要用網路流量來偵查所以目前這個就是我們的困難那這個通過就可以突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3482.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3496.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好,謝謝副署長副署長這個昨天在我們今天就要審查要審查這個通訊保障法但是在昨天我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3498.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3512.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這個司法改革前天我們這個民間司改會他們也召開了記者會就是針對我們目前的通訊保障的修正他們也提出幾個質疑我覺得這些質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3515.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3534.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
有他的道理而且社會也有這樣的疑慮所以我希望說今天在這個集會上面我希望部長能夠在就這些部分做一些說明他們有蠻多針對這個通訊法這次修正的這些質疑但是我看到的兩個比較大的重點第一個就是我們這次修法這修第11條之一將這個過去這個調取這個這個通訊使用者資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3543.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3561.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
通訊使用者資料過去是檢察官保留跟法官保留現在我們把這個都拿掉了不是拿掉了我們現在擴大到警察他可以直接調取通訊使用者的資料這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3562.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3578.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
他依照統計過去的的的這些這些這些調取的案件齁這個部分是不是請請部請部長來說明我們拿掉拿掉了這個這個有關通訊者欸通訊使用者資料的這個檢察官保留的這個部分是不是請部長說明是一條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3579.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3597.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那個使用者資料就是我們那個升登的一個資料大概就是姓名、身份證、字號、住址、聯繫方式我舉個最簡單的例子這德國跟美國他們都不需要法官的令狀我舉個最簡單例子譬如說我們手機留一個不明的一個電話號碼結果民眾誤信了結果跟他聯絡他跑來就炸錢了結果他發覺錢拿出去之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3601.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3601.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
二、繼續併案審查 unemploy（二、繼續併案 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3620.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3642.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以我們認為這個對隱私的這個是一個啦因為這個是沒有內容的嘛這個使用的資料只有單純的深燈人的這些的姓名那個門號的這些的基本資料並沒有這個通訊裡面的內容這個民間團體他們質疑的是說按照這樣子通過大概有九成九成的案件都不會經過法院都不會經過法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3643.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3665.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個跟委員報告他這是使用者是一個偵查一個最先的一個開頭你現在沒辦法去做這個再做進一步的釐清嘛所以我們譬如說使用者只要調了之後我們才有辦法去進下一步譬如說調取這些的通聯的這些記錄這下一步才有作戰所以使用者只要是第一步而已這個齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3669.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3684.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個部分是民間這個有質疑而且事實上這個民間團體他們希望我們能夠提出完整的人權影響評估其實也並不是純然的反對但是認為說我們在立法過程中對於人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3685.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3685.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
二、繼續併 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3703.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3703.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
一）以上。 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3734.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3754.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
謝謝省委員、謝謝政部長、謝謝副署長由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢,尚未確定,現在先確認議事錄請問各位,上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?沒有好,沒有,那我們議事錄確定好,那麼接下來我們邀請莊委員瑞雄發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3767.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3774.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
謝謝主席有請我們法務部政部長有請政部長司法院今天是李廳長李廳長委員早部長我想今天幾個問題來救教這個我相信在法律人最有名的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3791.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3797.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
對於大法官會議的一個解釋大家都耳熟能詳的就是釋字第631號631號我看它在整個解釋裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3805.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3823.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
他有特別去你把他整個文件把它給看完以後你會看到就是說你如果說把人民的權利跟刑事訴訟就是刑事訴追的關係來列一個位階的話我不曉得部長你把什麼列為是第一個位階這兩個來做比較這問題就有趣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3832.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3856.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這個大法官4至6、3、1號解釋是主要是闡述那個那個保障那個主要是對秘密通訊自由的一些含色的範圍做一個做一個釐清對所以嘛我就我就問了就是說如果你把人民的權利跟刑事訴罪的關係來排列位階的話第一個位階當然就一定是憲法保障的基本人權嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3856.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3883.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
第二個才會是我們的這個刑事訴追的一個利益啊啊這個從幾號幾號的一個大會的一個解釋啊我們都可以看到了啊就是變成說隱私權跟秘密通訊這樣的一個自由啊這個其實就是一個普世的一個價值啦這我相信應該各位都可以來認同啊要怎麼樣去限制他你第一個你必須要去合理或者正當 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3884.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3900.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們整個通訊的一個監察我們看從過去從1999年通保法裡面檢察官去得到授權進行通訊監察到現在授權偵察機關也必須要檢察官向法院來申請這樣的一個令狀 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3901.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3926.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
其實這個都在表明國人跟執行機關對於通訊自由的一個重視那我今天為什麼特別會提出來就是延續著昨天的一個對法務部跟司法院這邊的一個詢問有幾個概念裡面其實我倒會覺得說我們今天在審查這樣的一個條文大法官事事631號其實還是很重要的一個基石很重要的一個基石 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3927.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3943.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那今天呢涉及到整個監察的情況你像譬如說事中的監察事後的監察這個都很重要我看在解釋文裡面他也講得非常清楚了這個涉及到這比一般的強制處分還要更嚴重我們今天得這些條文那 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3944.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3961.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我昨天提出一個最可怕的就是說你去做一般法院在或者司法機關在做強制處分的時候人民還可以現實的可以知道還可以行使一些防疫權那這種通訊跟屬於通訊跟監察的範圍裡面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3962.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3987.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
來無影去無蹤神不知鬼不覺所以過去我們歷次的一個修法裡面這個會有這麼多這麼多的一個爭議那你到了馬王政爭以後那整部法律院又去翻修到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的你就一直監聽監聽下去嘛到最後變成說一人一狀一人一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3990.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4017.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
你要監聽特定人的你就必須要經過法院的一個核可那我這一次要再提出來了就是說我們這個法令訂下去以後我們最擔心的就是說你在當事人甚至於第三人毫不知情之下會導致導致整個訴訟上的一個防禦沒有辦法去行使連聲明不符的機會都沒有這個是在631解釋裡面都要講得非常清楚了那這一次的重點我就來講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4018.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4041.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
網路流量紀錄這個太陽你把它加入這個變成可收集的一個證據的部分以後啊那我們本法在第15條又沒有去跟著修訂整個增訂整個告知的一個義務啦那我請教法務部長就是說對於沒有把網路流量這個紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼我特別來做請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4046.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4062.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這個通知當然是為了一個救濟但是是不是說要給予通知救濟那我想這個是應該有司法院來就會有通盤的一個考量這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4063.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4080.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這個是一個有爭議我們從整個這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑訴書案416條來提救濟嘛那既然是有必須要救濟的這部分這部分我們是法務部好那我請教司法院那個議廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4082.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4098.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我是覺得你們這樣的一個解釋這個都不夠充分了其實我是把問題丟出來給你們你們應該充分的跟社會來做一個對話你從憲法第22條你就可以去引申出來整個資訊的一個自主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4099.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4126.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這個在其實在釋字603號跟689號裡面解釋裡面都有去提到啦這個明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的一個自主權這個都屬於憲法保障上的一個權利因為昨天啊聽長你也在你們談到這個部分你們都是在講說我行政上的內控你們一直在談在這個內控可是呢你說個人的資料自主如果受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4128.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4155.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我剛提到這樣的肯認的話那你應該獲得相當的一個重視所以我一直在強調說這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題嘛那你們在事務條裡面沒有跟著去做一個徵定聽著你剛剛部長那個講法你可以做補充嗎如果依照委員的說法我是蠻認同委員的說法應該對人民的權益任何的侵害或是這個應該要給他有救濟的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4158.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4170.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
法務部這次提出這個修法我知道你們都利益良善但是我在這個地方其實都是在提出提醒你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微這個部分其實我是不認同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4176.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4193.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個是一個基本權力的一個保障的一個問題啦你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候啊你說姓名啊身份證字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握啊那這些資料不是所謂的影響輕微啦我是覺得至少不然你們用字這個部分啊 也不要這樣說你知道嗎 也不要這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4195.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4224.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個就不對喔那這次修法裡面你看你重點是修正了三條支一定的這個名詞網路流量所以網路流量是不是含設在第三條所稱的一個通訊跟委員報告齁因為我們認為那個只有使用者的資料這基本資料這是非常輕微那其他我們不認為就是說對隱私錢的一個干預我們認為是要法官保留是要法官保留所以我們認為是要經過許可的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4225.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4247.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我對這樣的講法我是覺得講法都不夠清楚啦我為什麼會這樣問呢就是說如果算在通訊裡面那你執行通訊監察的時候等於是賦予調查機關未來可以調查網路流量的一個記錄那等同是什麼呢你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有網路流量的記錄不是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4249.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4271.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
法律效果就會變這樣啊?根委員報告其實我們這次修的那個三之一的那個網路流量 這個不是通訊 這個不是通訊的一個內容這個不算通訊內容 這個不算 這個不是 這只是一個數位的一個軌跡那個就是一個通訊內容 來來來 廳長我來請教你的看法 這個我就跟部長的意見就完全不一樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4272.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4274.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那你要把它定成什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4274.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4276.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那他就不是受憲法保障的權利喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4291.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4316.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
他還是受憲法保障的權利來來來那憲法哪一個部分的保障的權利那可能是個人資料的一部分那不過跟委員報告一下在目前的相關的開戶資料我想在我們在偵查機關經常會調取什麼金融機構的帳戶的開戶資料那對偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的啦那所以說後面的相關的所謂的當事人覺得受侵害怎麼去 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4317.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4334.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
表示不符或是有一個救濟程序的話也許透過416條的相關的一個準抗告程序的擴張解釋應該是可以扯遠了有點扯遠了我的意思是說如果這個法條你把它定下去的話你會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量的一個紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4336.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4339.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以說嘛所以說嘛到最後變成強制你整個電信業者必須要把這個網路的流量的記錄把它做一個保存啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4353.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4378.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這個很可怕我是覺得這個很可怕要再跟社會講清楚了整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督的一個機制都沒有在法律的層次裡面去做訂定跟委員報告其實在三條之一就是這些網路的流量記錄是有列舉六項的流量記錄這個很清楚只有這六項的流量記錄列舉的才需要保存所以就變成強制啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4380.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4384.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你們也沒去做說明啊你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 從網域裡面一個名稱到協定的資料裡面 你就變成說我就可以知道說使用者進去哪一個網頁用了什麼APP 那其實就是瀏覽記錄的一部分了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4397.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4398.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我當然知道。 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4418.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4441.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那是另外一個要另外一個通訊監要去處理的問題不是釣取那個我意思是說你還要整包還要電信業者你一定一定要強制他必須要去做一個留存了啦這這這很可怕你知道不知道我就跟你說你像比如說我們內政部我們政府機關常常有一些資料個人隱私的資料會外洩啊你這一個落後 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4443.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4459.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
你就變成我們整個這個會壯大收集整個各自數量跟那個類型跟數量你這個到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料的一個分析像目前的目前的通信記錄本來這些電信業者本就在保留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4460.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4485.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那現在我們是增加因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化的現在用我們現在傳統那個門號的那種的詐騙方式他現在已經已經變成是不是居住那麼重要現在整個網路的一個詐騙變多了所以我們才有這一條其實這就是等於一個通聯的一個就像我們那個門號的一個通聯記錄而已而且我們限縮在列列舉的六種的一個一個網路的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4486.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4512.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
一個流量的就限定他6個是嘛你去看我們整個通保法嘛為什麼到最後要採令狀那在採令狀你也不是什麼罪你都可以去監聽捏這針對重大類型的一個犯罪捏這齁我再一次來講啦齁再一次來講啦這個齁連這個部分法官保留齁我都覺得這會養出另外一頭巨獸 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4517.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4528.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個我再次提出叮嚀一下就是說昨天講很多東西我相信不同的政黨的委員也都有去提到你們動不動就講說內空用行政監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4529.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4554.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那我現在講的是說你這些資料的保存業者的監督業者保存的範圍你這根本就看不到內控你行政監督你怎麼去管理啦我擔心的是這個法律有明我規定這個草案有規定就是一定要定執法那個是在14條之一這是一個執法的在第6第6項第6項要定執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4555.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4572.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那另外我有關心的這些的問題這個在第14條之一都有做相關的一個規定我想這部分可以細部的我會再跟你就教啦我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念你強制的業者了以後那他本來保存了以後那保存了以後假設我是駭客啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4573.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4592.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我又把你給侵入了啦你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪啦你就本一到最後把龐大國人的網路流量記錄交給別人來做一個掌管那個如果遭到外洩的這個後果又非常的嚴重你網路流量其實也會去記錄到當中的一個IP啊如果遭到外洩取得位置發動一些網路的一個詐騙的話甚至害入整個電腦的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4596.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4597.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我從昨天到現在的用語都是講說齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4611.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4628.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
再考慮一下看是不是可以把這個整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分再去做一個考量啦我要再一次再提出來總是要提醒啦雖然是執政黨的但是我看來以後我把我的疑慮憂慮再提出來讓你們做一個提醒好不好謝謝好謝謝莊委員謝謝部長、廳長接下來有請陳委員俊宇發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4655.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4658.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好謝謝主席那我們有請鄭部長有請鄭部長部長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4663.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4686.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
委員早好我們今天接續要審議的是有關通訊保障及監察法的相關條文修正的草案那也是因應我們現在網路詐騙的這個橫行境外網路犯罪的情況非常的嚴重那所以我們期待能夠透過法律的授權來提供給檢警有效打擊網路犯罪的一個工具那 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4687.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4695.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
想先就我們院版草案當中這個實務上資訊取得的爭議來就教我們部長在草案的第三條第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4696.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4719.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
第三條之一第二項當中所規範的這個通訊使用者資料從第十一條的第一之一的這個修訂來看是檢警自行決定就能夠調取的那我們瞭解是為了要防止詐騙集團用人頭門號來做一個斷點但因為這個調取的程序相當的簡單將來 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4722.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4727.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個有權力調取的人也會比較多那我想請教就這樣的相對低門檻的調取條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4729.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4753.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
會不會存在備濫用的可能?謝謝委員那我想這個那個要調用的前提一定是有對特定的一個犯罪來做修正的這個是屬於第一步哈就譬如說我一個詐團我一個一個被害人被詐團他有一個手機就是我這個手機或者是網路的哪一個一個一個e-mail是怎麼樣傳給我的那我我就去報因為我被騙了報 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4754.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4782.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
警察第一步一定是去了解這e-mail跟那個這個手機門號這使用者的一個資料嘛那如果說這個以併案來講他非常急而且警方也非常的一個會急迫的情形或者是一個擄人的屬於電話或一個恐嚇恐嚇的一個治安的一個電話我們是不是還要再經法官保留啊檢換保留那這個一定這個在延誤辦案時機更何況德國英國這個都沒有德國美國這個都是不需要法官令狀的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4782.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4783.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
二、繼續併案《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》案 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4804.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4805.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
二、繼續併案審查cellence |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4821.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4847.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這個有關我們第三條之一的第三項網路流量的記錄的部分那看到草案的內容其實對網路的範圍還蠻廣的啦齁那尤其是我們現在每天可能都透過手機會在網路上留下大量的這個足跡所以我想特別對這一項資料的調取想跟部長您來討論一下就是我想先了解的是我們檢檢在偵辦的這個過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4850.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4858.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
通常是用何種情況下會需要調取這些資料而希望能夠達到什麼樣的目的來這個申請這個要調閱資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4863.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4887.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
就是我們有看到就是數位的比如說我們知道門號或者是e-mail這一種的一個詐騙的一個情形那我們最想要知道就是說因為這個是不明而且有人頭的一個帳戶帳號的一個情形所以我們希望能夠找出犯嫌那個身份所以我們去追追是不是追這個IP啦或是怎樣的一個真正的一個背後的一個到底是一個身份那我們才用上述溯源 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4887.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4912.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這個就是一個在偵查犯罪最早最早的一個階段而已這個在一個個人隱私這部分這個是非常關鍵是非常小而且而且這個我們這前提一定要有個案件一定要這個事實認為有必要性跟關聯性我們才會去做才這樣的一個一個調位這些一個資料好那看起來在這個11條之一當中並沒有特別規範說調取網路流量記錄的這個對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4916.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4932.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
只要檢察官認為有必要有關聯,這個剛剛部長您也大概說了都能夠向法院來申請調取的票但是如果要調取沒有犯罪嫌疑的第三人是不是應該要有更嚴謹的把關門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4939.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4940.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
二、繼續併案 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4962.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4962.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
二、繼續併案 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4980.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4993.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好那如果部長我想請教就是說我們今天使用的是這個VPN在上網這個應該有涉及到境外的部分我們還能夠追蹤得到這些紀錄嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4995.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5019.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個密片是一個虛擬的私人網絡它其實裡面都是加密的它就一個就是加密的中轉站它是把那個真實IP是隱藏起來另外再開一條加密的一個途徑那這邊當然這邊我們是在這邊可以增加我們這個辦案的一個困擾但如果說我們這邊有一個網路受到網路的一個流量的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5021.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5028.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
一）一些的記錄就這些的數位軌跡我們可以試圖去做去做一個一個去做一個突破吼那我想這 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5030.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5050.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那這個比較詳細的這部分因為執行面的是不是可以請警政署就這樣執行面的這邊的一個說明沒關係沒關係這個部分後續我再請教警政署針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破那因為以現代人的這個生活型態來看上網的時間應該都遠過於這個通話的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5054.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5074.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說了對於這個打擊犯罪有其必要但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎避免這個涉及到這個侵犯到個人的隱私的這個方面的問題謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5075.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5091.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那另外我想請教就是對於AI應用的部分那因為近期這個熱門的搜索關鍵字就是AI我想跟部長您來討論一下這幾天我們整個新聞社群媒體甚至百公百業都在討論這個AI不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5094.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5121.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
討論到這個AI在台灣的發展趨勢那現在在隔壁的這個國防部長報告當中也提及到這個AI在軍事上的應用那過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的這個輔助應用對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解紓緩這個壓力甚至在過去我們法務部也曾經以這個科技化的法務部自詡 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5123.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5144.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
不過對於實際的這個應用成效目前我們所知的這個資訊也都只是這個比較片段一些我想請教部長就是我們各部會都在積極部署AI的業務上應用那法務部也有使用這個一段時間的這個AI的這個應用了那目前看來使用的成效如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5145.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5171.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
謝謝委員目前我們法務部的AI計劃已經完成了跟警方的一個借接了那這部分基本上可以用那個譬如說詐團的那個幫助人頭賬戶的詐欺的一個付表或酒駕這一部分那可以用AI來做一個處理而且可以帶入警訊的一個筆錄那這個已經在台中跟桃園來試辦了那我們希望下半年能夠擴大到台北跟新北那希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔那謝謝委員關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5175.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5190.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好因為智慧AI我相信這是未來的一個趨勢的啊那我們現在在全台只有四個縣市的地檢署有在試辦這個AI的這個這個今年年底交到四個對在台北新竹苗栗跟台南嘛齁那未來是不是有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5190.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5219.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
一）到我們每一個縣市都能夠來普及來使用。對,我們希望若事辦的效果更好,我們會在整個全部普及來使用。我們是很期待。那就期待我們這個法務部來努力,看能不能盡早來部署完成。好,以上謝謝部長。好,謝謝委員。謝謝陳委員,謝謝曾部長。接下來有請林委員私名發言。好,謝謝主席。 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5220.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5221.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我們請法務部政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5225.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5253.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
委員早部長早部長我們這次修訂的通保法內當然有很多疑慮該大家也都有提出來我首先請教部長就是說我們通保法內的通訊的定義是否包括以網路通訊軟體比如說LINE或者是微信或者這個Message所傳送的文字圖片以及語音訊息有沒有包含這些通訊軟體 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5255.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5280.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這部分不包括不包括嗎?如果說不包括的話那以我們現在國人使用手機的習慣所以我們大部分都是使用這些LINE的通訊軟體或者微信或者臉書的message來做相關的文字或者圖片這些相關的語音訊息的一個傳送 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5281.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5294.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以如果沒有辦法就這些網路通訊軟體的通訊內容加以監察是不是會對於我們犯罪偵查的效果就變成打折了所以這樣通保法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5295.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5323.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
立法跟我們昨天我們在這個當然也就這個科技偵查法我們也做相關的一個審查但是如果說對這方面的我們沒有辦法去做相關的一個去去做去我講就是如這一次的我們去把這方面的通訊做相關的一個監察是不是我們對就感覺上就好像少了什麼東西啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5325.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5346.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
謝謝我關心這問題。事實上這些社群網路的這些的平台業者這些的通訊軟體這部分是沒辦法去因為都是加密的所以沒辦法做通訊檢查所以部長我的感受就是說這個就變成說這個這變成防君子不防小人的溫柔立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5347.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5367.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
很溫柔對犯罪偵查的注意有限就這些人因為你沒有辦法去做這方面的監察那這些不管是詐騙或者是阻止犯罪的這些人他如果利用這些通訊軟體來做相關的通訊的話聽部長剛才的一個說法是不是我們就完全 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5368.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5368.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
媒折。 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5393.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5417.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
如果真的需要這些通訊軟體的資料比如說LINE的軟體的一個通訊的一個資料我們也沒有辦法跟他們來就是說做配合我們的檢警調沒有辦法去跟這些LINE的公司來合作就是說因為真的我們有偵查犯罪的必要來請他們提供嗎沒有辦法合作嗎目前的話我們只用協議的一個方式那就要看這個整個通訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5418.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5419.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
規定任何的協議嗎?目前有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5431.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5460.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
他另外那個以以賴的話齁以賴的話齁是他我們協議是沒辦法他一定要個搜索票要要就依循序訴訟法是是規定申請搜索票去跟賴講說欸這邊有說欸他他他才會提供而且他只能調到回溯80日齁跟連續7日的一個資料那基本上這個賴的內容都是有加密的所以事實上事實上我們只能看調到的內容還是有限還是有限喔好 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5461.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5473.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那好 這個部分當然我還是希望法務部能夠就這方面的漏洞 這真的是一個漏洞看如何來做一個建制還是那個我們次長 處長做補充一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5475.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5502.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
關於LINE的這個部分,如果LINE它本身有投放廣告的話那在我們昨天大院所一讀通過的打雜專法裡面事實上就這一個平台業者他如果投放廣告的話他有相關的留存的義務跟我們跟他調取他比較提供的義務所以未來如果相關的平台他有符合廣告業者的規定的話可以用新的打雜專法去調取 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5502.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5530.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
是,好接下來我再請問我們現在的詐騙案件大多數投資詐騙的網站IP都是在境外所以部長對於這種偵查到如果是國外IP的伺服器那我們是不是就都沒有辦法偵查沒有辦法來偵辦目前在這部分會整個就偵辦就會遇到阻礙了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5531.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5552.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以如何克服這部分如何克服所以這樣聽起來即便有科技這幾個大專法通過好像對這些境外的這些他的機房在境外的或者他是用國外的伺服器聽起來就完全我們沒有辦法去打擊所以委員就問到重點了這就是我們第三條的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5553.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5553.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
所以我們先﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5568.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5588.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
即便目前我們在國際間的形式合作有很多的一個管道不管是法務部我們有國際及兩岸法律司調查局有國際事務處警政署也有國際組刑事警察局也有國際刑警科所以我們這幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5591.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5604.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
國際的這些相關的跟國外合作的相關單位都沒有辦法對這些來自境外的這些IP去跟國外來請求協助嗎?欸這部分這個比較專業有沒有那個我們警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5607.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5635.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那個我們是不是可以先請那個我們市長好市長請回請回跟這個委員報告剛才講到境外的這個網路業者的部分事實上我們昨天打詐專法裡面也通過有一條要求這境外業者要在台灣准落地是他必須要到台灣設置一個法律代表人的一個機制如果他沒有設的話我們必須用高額的行政裁罰去裁罰他透過行政上的管制要求境外的業者在台灣准落地的方式去控管這些境外的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5635.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5662.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那至於司法互助的部分當然我們國家可以透過正式的司法互助去做請求但在國這個當然是緩不比較速度比較慢透過警政之間的情資交換也是一個途徑去取得相關的情資交換的情資是所以打詐專法裡面已經有相關的對這些有一個行政管制的那如果這樣的話我們警政署這屬於你們的業務吧那未來這個遇到這種情況你們未來要如何執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5664.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5684.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
因為現在碰到境外確實有他的困難就是說這個剛提到VNPA的斷點就是伺服器在國外所以就追不下去那我們現在可以做的第一個就我們知道他這個網路就把他封鎖第二個當然成效不一定就如果我們知道是某一個國家如果我們有駐外聯絡這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5686.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5698.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
８二）行事局有諸外聯絡官或許可以請求協助８二）那另外我們現在積極在爭取的希望我們能夠增加加入國際刑警組織但是目前這個還在努力當中８二）副處長我覺得我聽起來這方面真的我們要再 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5702.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5702.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
現在還有他的難度 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5726.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5754.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
是我想我時間的關係我再問最後一個問題我想我們在考慮無論是訂立科技偵查或者通保法我們總是再三考慮不要侵犯人權不要涉及各自不要收集到第三人的資料而且我們昨天的科證法也這個對於說收集到的資料我們除非認為有必要那否則要立即銷毀有必要也要在五年後要銷毀 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5755.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5782.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以法律是定的很嚴謹但是我們看到還是有些人可以輕易的取得這些資料就比如說這個被台北地檢署現在在偵辦的王逸川他就表明了說他對於民眾的個資他掌握的有包含性別年齡足跡數位足跡所以我要問部長他是否就掌握了通訊使用者的資料還有我們的網路流量紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5785.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5804.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
依照王一昌他的說法這是他個人的說法那這部分我們不知道他的說法的依據來源不過這個案件現在已經臺北地檢署在偵辦中我相信檢察官會依法來不是啊我希望勿忘無重他敢這樣講他今天敢在電視上這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5807.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5835.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
一）可見他是真的有這個掌握相關的資料。他說他用膝蓋就可以可想而知就可以去了解這些資料。部長你相信嗎?他這不是在胡說八道嗎?所以部長我在這邊就是說因為已經在偵辦中我要求你勿忘無中。一個人可以膽大妄為在這個電視上說他掌握了這些網路通訊的流量記錄以及使用者的資料。 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5836.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5837.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
主席有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5866.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5893.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
請鄭部長部長我念一個條文給你聽就是我們昨天審的科技偵查及保障法草案第二條第二條第一項規定偵查中檢察官認為有必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5894.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5912.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
情形及收證證據有必要時一同。我想請問您這一條拿掉了嗎?這一條沒有拿掉這是原來的草案的第三條那昨天在就是委員的關心就是說因為這是類舉我跟委員說明齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5914.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5921.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我先跟部長講我謝謝你澄清啦昨天我問你這一條你說拿掉了但事實上是沒有拿掉你先聽我講完沒關係部長你說謊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5926.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5943.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
你騙我嗎?我直接幫你講答案好不好部長我不認為你說謊我也不認為你騙人因為你們的次長跟你們的幕僚跟我講說你可能理解錯誤我講這一條你可能理解到別的地方去然後你也可能口誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5944.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5969.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個是第二條拿掉是原的我昨天明確的問你是第二條第一項欸你現在還要我不認為你說謊喔你現在是意思是你騙我說謊嗎那個我講的拿掉的是屬於原草案的第二條我沒問你這個嘛第二條的那個蓋瓜授權我沒有問你蓋瓜授權嘛我跟部長問我昨天問你蓋瓜授權嗎主席在旁邊聽到我問你就這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5969.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5994.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
啊這一條是絕對不會拿掉答對了嘛我之所以說你不會說謊我不認為你說謊因為這一條絕對不會拿掉嘛可是你今天防禦心態重我問你這一條你直接講這一條拿掉了我跟部長說今天吼雖然說國會改革法案已經通過因為還沒生效吼裡面有所謂說謊官員罪但這一罪我這邊直接做示範辦不到你你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼辦不到你因為我不認為你說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5999.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6019.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
因為我認為我講這個條文你可能理解錯誤昨天主席也講理解錯誤理解錯誤不算說謊我接受不可能拿掉我不認為你說謊我幫你辯護欸部長對可是我告訴你啊部長請問是你理解錯誤還是我被你打臉啊昨天 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6021.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6047.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
昨天我們就是就法條的內容抱歉喔雖然我很體諒我昨天也沒有要幹什麼你有沒有發現你問你的幕僚來跟我解釋我就接受當然說那我接受部長可能就是跟我講的法條理解到別的地方去我接受這個說法我接受這個說法可是抱歉明天那個綠營的側翼可不是這麼看啦到處做影片開始說我被你打臉請問我被你打臉了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6048.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6074.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
有沒有我們在再做一個釐清嘛對嘛就在那邊做釐清嘛我只問你部長我被你打臉了嗎還是昨天你的溝通過程當中你對我講的法條你有誤解可能我們是對那個是不是蓋掛授權第二條的我就跟你講我沒有講蓋掛授權嘛我講的是第一條第一項我才講第一項你就跟我講拿掉了你就拿講拿掉啦我沒有講到蓋掛授權的問題啊我講第一項你就講拿掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6075.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6098.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
昨天影片很清楚喔所以抱歉部長我告訴你我已經也採取法律行動了因為我沒辦法容許今天這麼明顯的一個狀況還要去在網路上造謠扭曲那個側衣粉專也把這個相關的這個文章把它撤下來但是我今天要跟部長講本來昨天說的我也接受剛剛我們的那個主席的說法所以我昨天沒有說什麼事喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6099.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6122.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
可是抱歉我今天必須鄭重的澄清我還是說一句話部長以後我們在這個詢答的過程當中請你聽仔細我的問題好不好我沒有問的問題你不要馬上跳出來先做超越性的回答第二個我要針對今天我們通保法還有包括昨天柯真法裡面我有很多的問題要請教一下部長首先我想請教您 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6125.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6137.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
你知道過去我們發生很多的大案包括說高鴻安案對不對包括這個楊文科案或林芝妙案都發生一件事情就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6138.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6160.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
在檢察官開始去偵辦的過程當中奇怪啊近週刊通通都知道所有案情所以很多人質疑你的偵查不公開沒有落實可是部長我有問過我有問前面蔡清祥部長這個問題他就說這個東西難以激考因為不能保證是檢察官或法務部洩漏的你是持同樣的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6162.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6182.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個媒體的來源我們並不清楚非常好告訴你總而言之偵查不公開連我自己都曾經遇過我曾經因為這個一個洩密案我被當證人約談檢察官當場跟我講說羅先生因為這個偵查不公開你出去不要對外講結果一出去之後媒體全部都報導出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6184.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6211.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那當然法務部可以說這個跟法務部沒關但是實際上偵查部公開輪迴一紙虛文甚至變成是今天拿來做所謂帶風向的工具以及是大家招招攬的事實那我想問你知道這跟今天我們的不管是科偵法跟所謂的通保法有什麼關聯性我想要請教一下第一個對通信記錄的部分我認同法務部說的它侵害性較小你知道為什麼認同通信記錄侵害性較小呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6212.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6226.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以可以給予比較多的所謂的你的所謂的授權一般性的授權或是最最多到所謂的事後或是檢察官保留你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼通訊紀錄這一部分我覺得相對來講侵害比較小為什麼因為現在沒什麼在打電話了大家談什麼事情都用什麼東西談剛剛前面林市民委員講的用什麼東西談 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6236.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6237.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
部長你現在溝通還用電話溝通嗎?對嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6242.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6269.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以換言之通訊紀錄這個部分確實如你所說因為時代變遷的問題它的侵犯性較小但是抱歉網路足跡我不認為網路足跡我只問你一件事情網路足跡今天你調查到比方舉個例子賴清德總統如果說他很喜歡勞力士表他到購物網站去看勞力士表就被你們開始要去收集所謂的這個賴清德不一定是那位總統賴清德我只舉個名字而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6269.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6294.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
或是這位賴清德有一位賴清德他的主錯想要信託他答應主錯要信託結果主錯沒有信託跳票了他到法律網站去諮詢這個網路的足跡如果一旦被列為你們要偵查的對象的話這網路足跡看不看得到看不看得到網路足跡我們在第三條之一看不看得到嘛我只問你看不看得到嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6295.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6295.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你到底查什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6309.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6336.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我們就是從裡面我們不會知道網址我們知道就譬如說他的IPIP位置但是我們不知道網址你說IP位置不能查不能做後續偵查那個是我們查的IP是可以嘛但是我們可以啊你就講可以啊IP不能查我要跟你講是後續作為要不要啟動的問題嘛對不對前端作為你要做你收集IP但後續作為你要不要做進一步的是進一步的問題嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6337.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6351.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
對這個是網絡網址我跟你講所以部長我時間真的有限你每次在這種細節的地方要跟我帶到外太空去我也質詢不完可是我回頭要講一件事情我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王逸川 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6353.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6359.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
你當然講不可能啊!你會不會違法偵查公開?你會不會?我跟你講你當然說不會嘛!就像說你會偵查不公開你也跟我保證你保證你們做所有偵查案件你們會做到偵查不公開嘛對不對?對嘛!可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件只要重大案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6381.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6399.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
就周刊馬上報導出啊我告訴你到現在為止只有法務部還在下壓他認為你的偵查公開做得很好偵查不公開做得很好我當然知道你的辯解我講的是結果論不是講你今天主觀論你主觀論認為偵查不公開做得很好但是仿在現在現實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6401.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6428.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
每個重大案件都這麼巧通通都偵查公開了也許不是法務部也許警政署也許是別的人我不知道啊但是我看到這件普遍性的現象我只問一件事情你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王逸川抱歉我只能盲目的相信你欸因為我很信任部長欸可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題是什麼我今天堅持就今天立法院法治局講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6429.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6449.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
你今天如果事前你跟我講不知道昨天的我們講這個所謂的科偵的一個作為GPS的作為說啊事前法官能力不夠檢察官能力不夠沒辦法法官保留沒辦法相對法官保留沒辦法檢察官保留我非得要辦案我一定要有效率一定要及時抓到人好啦為了打仗當然其實這部法不只是規範打仗沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6452.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6478.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
打詐只是其中之一嘛最重要之一也是你的主觀評價但是牽連到所有的犯罪類型全部都有沒有關係我跟你講昨天已經講過這我不打算跟你爭論下去我要講的是什麼我要講的是說今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講檢察官保留法官保留是為了打詐這個目標很宏大我支持打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6479.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6491.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
可是至少你要做到一件事情你事後總要通知當事人吧不知道主席喔這個問題因為前面我先做很多澄清喔你事後你事後總要通知當事人吧要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6493.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6508.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
要不要我今天被科徵了我被找到GPS了事前你說因為打詐的一個一個所謂戰隊征防的速率效率我們那個監聽就委員通知當事人嗎那這個也可以有有一到有沒有嗎現在有沒有規範嗎那個監聽這麼速那個我監聽而已啊我講的是科徵我講的是GPS我講的是通訊記錄我講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6515.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6519.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
今天網路的紀錄我講的是24小時內你不要跟我跳跳跳跳概念我講的是24小時內沒有法官保留欸你還是說你24小時內是法官保留是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6530.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6552.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
當然不是嘛所以部長說真的齁你今天昨天為什麼出這個狀況就是我問A你要跳到B回答才會造成昨天的情況我沒有認為你說謊但是你的答詢模式我認為大有問題最後我還要再強調一件事情你事前說你今天為了犯罪增防的效率齁我跟你講說真的這帽子很大啦我也不知道怎麼跟你講啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6553.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6574.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
但是人權保障的部分你至少事後要做到你可以答應我今天不管是GPS只要被調到的人只要是今天通訊監察所謂的通訊記錄跟網路記錄被調到的人你案件偵辦結束之後發個通知書跟他講說你被柯真了你被通聯記錄了你被網路記錄了你做不做得到做不到修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6578.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6591.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
真的啊事後你不要跟我講人力不足喔事後人力不足變成藉口事前是因為犯罪征訪我給你這個空間但事後連這個都不做我跟你講就是偷懶兩個字以上謝謝接下來請審委員伯陽發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6618.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6618.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6623.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6646.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
委員好你好部長我今天不會花太多時間因為我大概就只有兩個重點而已因為畢竟這一次的這個通訊保障的地方沒有那麼多那這一次就兩個點第一個當然就是這個使用者資料這一次你們做了一些改變然後再來就是有這個所謂的網路流量紀錄所以我大概就問這兩個點那第一個點就是通訊使用者因為按照現行的法條看起來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6647.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6675.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
只要有關聯性就可以做調取所以我們看到這個法條現在是說有事實主任那檢察官跟司法這個檢察官就可以直接調取那因為這個在之前我們看一下數據就是說大概一年這個其實因為他本來有這個檢察官保留或法官保留的狀況之下我們看這一個核准大概九成九成那跟法官跟檢察官還有一點落差但是一年呢就還是會有400多件是在檢察官或法官還是被駁回 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6677.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6694.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
現在如果走這一套那這個應該就不止400多件了應該會更多 對不對因為畢竟警察人更多嘛所以在這個狀況之下目前我不是說這個完全不行但這個一定要有配套措施還有救濟那這種配套跟救濟現在法務部會怎麼去設計它 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6695.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6716.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那目前我們設計就是其實是我們為什麼使用者資料這是一個身份資料我也都很清楚那所以最基本就是一個開付的一個資料而已就是基本資料那我想這個最隱私權的這個干預是極為輕微那我們為什麼一定要讓檢警能夠直接去去調取不需要法官的許可因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6719.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6742.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這一定要有特定的一個案件的一個存在然後有它的一個收集的一個必要性對它會有一個案件嘛但是它這個案件本身不是說腐爛的對社會大眾就可以廣泛的說這個這個是要負責任這個是要負民行事或其他的一個責任的所以這個使用資料不能夠隨便亂掉一定要有前提有案件而且有必要性而且有關聯性常用掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6743.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6767.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個案件跟關聯性這件事情因為你可以看到就是說我們左邊這邊是整理了一些新聞就是說之前警察有些濫用各自的狀況那當然我們 這些都被辦了對所以目前來講就是說但是因為這個事實存在嘛也就是說當這個制度被推出去之後呢被濫用的可能性會提高所以不管是我覺得剛剛因為剛剛前面我也有提到通知我覺得這個通知不一定是我們要採取的做法但 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6767.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6792.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
不管是通知還是救濟因為今天如果你沒有前階段的通知你大概也很難去做後面的救濟所以濫權他不一定要在程序上做保障比如說在警察的教育訓練啊什麼等等之類的這一類要因為這個濫權的可能性會很高那如果我們在盤點的狀況之下我覺得這件事情是一定要注意隱私親愛很小這件事情我覺得大概跟等一下我要問的比較不一樣但這件事情我覺得要注意這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6793.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6812.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
第二點就是在這個網路流量資料因為之前我們是有這個最重本刑三年以上這樣的限制那這個限制我看修法理由有提到說這個就是會造成一些困擾就是說有些案件沒有辦法辦但現在很麻煩的地方就是說如果這個限制拿掉的話會變成說 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6814.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6828.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
因為他本身沒有這個重刑的這個限制或者這種中度案件的限制變成說他現在要做這件事情變得很方便那因為網路流量資料這邊我就不進入細節因為他的這一邊的這個修法有提到這個叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6830.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6859.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
通訊設備識別資料這個識別資料其實比較不清楚因為他可能包含device ID他可能包含IMEI他可能也可能有MSI因為他沒有講清楚所以這些東西如果去跟IP來做拼湊的話這個能夠造成的隱私情案會比較大那我這邊有因為時間的關係我這邊是一個小小的建議就是說因為我知道因為實務上會認為最重本刑三年以上這樣會造成很多案件你們要做這個調查沒辦法調查嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6860.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6880.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那能不能用反面排除的比如說我們今天排除最重本刑三年以下那我這樣講是因為量能問題因為如果按照比如說像現在有藐視國會罪那公然侮辱現在比較沒那麼容易成立還有誹謗這些比較輕的犯罪如果全部都可以走這一條路的話他有可能到最後是警方沒有辦法負荷啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6880.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6881.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
因為時間的關係部長就簡短回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6905 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6908.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
其實我們是認為有取消這個限制比如說我們那個引誘兒少從事色情業的這個都是很輕如果說這個不拿掉這個都沒辦法掉通年那這個兒少的這個屬於那個從事色情業這一種的這個是我們社會大眾關注的問題那另外像脫逃罪這也是輕罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6925.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6952.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那個那個這個像我們上次那個殺警案這個如果說沒有掉這個這個這個紀錄的話我們沒辦法即時的去去直接就就就做一個偵查的一個一個啟啟動那會延路時機那我想這個還是有他一個必要性啊那我想我們這部分其實掉這些的資料這是一個爭吵最早最早的一個開端而已至少知道知道希望能夠能夠知道這個這個被告的一個一個身份吼這個基本的一個資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6953.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6978.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那我想這部分對人權的一個侵害非常小而且基於公共利益的維護我們認為是有必要的那我覺得兩個點第一個就是說法定刑本身輕重這個必須就是還是要跟隱私清單做衡量這個是還是要做的第二個就是濫權他不一定是在法務部這邊做但就是我剛剛講的他在第一線的教育訓練這件事情這部分我們來加強對這個可能要跨部會要去討論一下就這兩個點我覺得要稍微注意尤其在進入主條的時候好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6981.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6996.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
謝謝省委員 謝謝政部長那也提醒一下今天的列席機關代表未來我們在進入法條的主條討論的時候可能會有類似今天委員關切的部分以修正動議提出或者以附帶決議的方式表達那請各列席機關代表要先譽為因應接下來有請黃委員國昌發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7017.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7022.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
請政部長和理聽長兩位好今天針對通訊保障的修正可以說是我們在科技偵查法律授權非常重要的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7041.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7066.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
不過因為昨天就已經有民間思考團體聲明說通訊保障侵害隱私資訊自主當然我看到民間思考會有這樣的聲明我有點驚訝所以我就必須要具體的看說通訊保障的草案侵害隱私跟資訊自主指的到底是什麼我們等一下進一步的來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7068.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7093.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
不過昨天基層檢察官團體看到了民間司改會的聲明顯然是非常的憤怒因為我很少看到我們基層檢察官用這麼重的詞要他們停止禍害國家這樣繼續搞下去是在形同保護、詐團基層檢察官的聲明部長有沒有看過這個有看過認不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7095.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7101.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這個反應就是基層檢察在辦案的一個困境是啊基層檢察官的心聲部長認不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7102.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7128.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這個的確是反映事實面的一些的震撼的一個困境我們具體的看因為我不喜歡討論抽象的問題用形容詞形容來形容去一點意義都沒有我們具體的看這次通訊法的修正是不是真的有去侵害人權的部分還是在打擊犯罪兼顧保障人權的前提下所必要我想這件事情要回顧在去年夏天的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7129.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7134.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我們非常多包括現在已經當政委的台大法律系的教授林明新 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7135.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7162.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
還有很多台大跟州委員的學者就說應該要立法授權設備端的通訊監察跟網路流量記錄理由講得非常清楚但設備端的通訊監察也就是所謂的小木馬大木馬小木馬部長分得清楚嗎分得清楚嗎那我們這一次連小木馬都沒有放進來就是擔心這一步如果跨出去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7163.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7192.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我們對於有關於通訊監察資料相關目前現有機制的保障是不是能夠做得充足有很多人很擔心啊所以最後你們草案也不敢把通訊端的設備端的通訊監察放進來我這樣說對不對這個小木馬這部分那個原來的草案那部分因為有人權侵略各界有這樣的一個聲音所以這部分我們就拿掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7192.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7204.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
德國刑事訴訟法有沒有?德國刑事法有有嘛我們看外國的立法例因為台灣在現實執行面上面的資訊夠管大家沒有信心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7205.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7232.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以這一步從保護國家安全的角度來講我認同學者他們所提出來的呼籲有必要但現實上的執行機制大家很擔心嘛所以連行政部門這一次都不敢提導致我們這次通訊法其實只有修網路流量紀錄嘛那我們要調取網路流量紀錄這件事情為什麼有必要2002年8月培洛西訪台的時候我們關鍵基礎設施遭到駭客攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7234.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7260.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
針對這種駭客攻擊如果要進一步追查的時候網路流量紀錄有沒有必要性這個有有嘛好再來我們在2020年年底的時候啊突然有人在網路上面啊散播恐嚇的訊息說要血染台灣那個時候可以破案最重要的關鍵是不是剛好一類電信他們在抽樣的時候剛好有留那個網路流量紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7262.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7288.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
實際上面偵辦的時候是不是這個樣子對這個有當初如果沒有留這個網路流量紀錄的話這個案子可以破案嗎這個有流量紀錄的話可以讓我們這個破案區的破案好我們就進一步啊來看但問題是網路流量紀錄的修法躺在行政院躺了非常多年今天終於放到檯面上我們針對網路流量紀錄是不是跟通訊的紀錄一樣到目前為止採取法官保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7289.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7311.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
對,是法官保留是採取法官保留嘛那這件事情要講清楚啊有法官在最後把關那個網路流量紀錄啊事實上對於個人資訊比通訊的內容所謂通訊的內容是我今天打個電話給部長結果我手機被監聽了我們兩個講什麼話全部都會被聽到嘛對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7313.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7328.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
對這個是監聽的內容那這個那個就有關於監聽的部分是不是也是法官保留這個是因為他對隱私權比較大所以一定要法官保留是嘛那以網路流量紀錄跟我們通訊的內容哪一個對個人隱私權的侵害比較強 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7330.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7355.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那個通訊內容對嘛那所以如果我們第一步賣出去的時候就針對網路流量紀律的部分我們還是採取法官保留嘛但有另外一件事情大家比較擔心的就是通訊使用者的資料通訊使用者的資料這支手機是屬於誰的住在哪裡這個是屬於個人資料的部分嘛我們目前通保法的規定是不是採取法官保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7356.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7382.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
目前是是嘛但我現在為什麼我們提了草案我們採取檢察官保留你們現在一步啊從法官保留跳到什麼司法警察官也可以嘛所以大家會擔心嘛那如果說我們這一步不要邁了這麼大步在兼顧人權保障的情況之下採取檢察官保留這樣的立場部長支不支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7387.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7388.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們是支持行政院函 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7417.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7438.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以你不贊成採取員長官保留?因為因為那是有可能就是說那個人頭那個門號非常多啦吼那要迅速調如果說他還要找檢察官也人力不會啊你如果說這種大型的詐欺犯罪人頭門號基本上都是報檢察官指揮在辦案啊怎麼會是警察在沒有檢察官統一指揮的情況之下像無頭蒼蠅一樣去辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7440.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7469.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那個那個跟委員報告齁那個就是重大案件報警跟指揮我想這部分齁都這個是純粹檢察官的主導齁那做一般案件主要是考慮到人頭賬戶非常多如果每一件都找檢察官檢察官就是整個人力負荷可能會比較吃緊沒關係啊這個很會牽涉到人權保障跟打擊犯罪中間的平衡點嘛那我問過非常多的檢察官啊他們都贊成那不過部長支持行政院函的立場沒關係我們到委員會審查進一步講 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7470.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7490.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我支持打擊犯罪就像我今天提案說明的一樣我們不可以讓壞人精神抖擻覺得好人累得跟狗一樣然後那些壞人吃香喝辣結果我們辛苦的基層的檢警在後面苦苦追趕這我絕對支持但在另外一方面在另外一方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7491.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7515.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
如果有不肖的檢警跟犯罪集團勾結的話這件事情絕對不能容忍一定要嚴懲到底嚴肅的追辦部長同不同意?同意來我們繼續來看郭澤民洗錢上百億的八八會館的主人之前你們前任的法務部怎麼縱放的?郭澤民跑掉喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7520.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7543.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
檢察官去過他的招待所結果你們前一任的法務部長軟趴趴問他什麼說要追究檢察官的責任推三阻四的結果不只只有郭澤民我發現台灣很奇怪洗錢洗越多的有招待所的檢警關係都很好郭澤民拖了快一年才抓回來現在換屠城文 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7544.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7561.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
徒成文去年11月檢方發動搜索的時候他竟然跑了欸他們兩個有什麼共通之處徒成文也有設招搜索啊檢察官也去過啊警察也去過啊到現在人還沒有抓回來來我要問的就郭澤民的案子檢察官可以一面限制出境一邊放人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7573.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7581.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
光澤平的案子來看一下二零二二年三月到十一月都已經盡管囉限制出境出海喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7582.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7607.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
結果他18號26號要出境的時候海關通知檢察官檢察官說放人這樣辦案正常嗎來請教部長您當過檢察長啊對犯罪偵查失誤應該非常的熟悉啊我搞不懂檢察官一方面限制出境出海一方面放人結果放人的檢察官去過郭澤民的招待所這是什麼跟什麼啊這種事情不需要嚴肅檢討嗎來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7612.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7637.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
他這部分那個檢察官那部分那監察院也彈劾那現在是移送到懲戒法院在審理中的對嘛部長你不會覺得很諷刺嗎當初我們相信法務部相信檢察官評鑑委員會結果兩個跟檢察官最有關係的軟趴趴反而現在是最不受社會信任的監察院最後把他彈劾了您不會覺得很諷刺嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7638.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7667.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
除了這個以外我們再繼續往下看怎麼這麼巧徒成文來請部長仔細看一下他的犯罪歷程2019年的時候檢警開始偵辦他地下會對洗錢罪嫌2020年7月檢警到他私人的招待所你光看這個時序啊你就會覺得匪夷所思啊一個在被調查地下會對跟洗錢的人我們的檢察官跟警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7668.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7693.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
還呼朋引伴到他的招待所去可以這樣搞喔結果等到要對他執行搜索具體的時候他已經跑了怎麼跑的有沒有內線消息怎麼這麼厲害又跑了這件事情啊法務部偵辦的進度如何跟大家說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7695.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7697.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案． |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7724.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7739.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
當這麼離譜的狀況出現的時候法務部就躲在檢察官個案偵查後面有沒有一個基本的態度啊所謂基本的態度是這種行為絕不允許法務部的立場絕不寬待嚴懲嚴辦這樣的立場部長可不可以公開宣誓 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7745.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7771.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們保護部的立場是不允許我們所有的這些檢察官及辦案人員齁在偵辦個案去有接受一個招待的一個情形那我想這部分我...啊就有了啊就有了啊問題是有了以後你們的態度是什麼嘛你們的立場是什麼嘛你們具體的作為是什麼嘛我們會責請那個那個台高檢署我們再來做了解調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7772.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7791.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這個案子我會持續的看第一個屠城文什麼時候抓回來第二個他怎麼跑的我們都尊重檢察官的偵辦但是不要以為新聞熱度過偵辦一年兩年三年四年無疾而終石層大海這個案子會成為石層大海嗎會不會石層大海屠城文抓得回來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7802.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7812.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
當初怎麼跑的洗錢上百億欸謝謝洗錢上百億欸我們再修洗錢防治法再修科技偵查的授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7814.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7832.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我們就是希望落實到具體個案的時候這種離譜的狀況不要發生嘛我希望部長齁新的部長新的跡象硬起來啊讓全國人民對我們減掉的偵辦啦是有信心的嚴懲犯罪打擊不法特別是這種洗錢上百億的大亨可以嗎好謝謝黃委員謝謝部長謝謝廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7847.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7874.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
好我們請下一位我們鍾嘉賓召委主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生邱青英法務部正部長還有國家通信傳播委員會的蔡處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7876.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7902.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
以及行政院個人資料保護委員會籌備處的陳科長好請部長、處長、科長委員好部長好、處長好、科長好今天我的標題網路版的通聯紀錄有助於主詐跟打詐但通報版的授權應配套救濟保障這也是很多委員關切的首先我們來看一下先了解一下部長對這個相關的認知下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7904.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7919.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這是一個中研院的學術研究他是利用手機的訊號資料去分析雙北的人口移動他這裡面有定位所謂的手機夜間人口跟手機日間人口這是以手機的所在位置去取得讓他去對比當時手機用戶申辦門號的時候的個資 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7924.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7942.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
去對應到他的戶籍業縣人口分析這些人住在哪區到了早上這個人移動到哪區我先請教一下我們的先請教蔡處長請問你認為這些手機門號業者的這些資料提供學術研究這是可以允許的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7944.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7968.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
是,如果說他已經去識別化,有辦法再連接到這個所謂的一個個人資料的一個人權的話那陳科長我請教一下,像這樣的一個研究不管是基於學術研究或是商業統計,如果在當時手機門號的公司跟申請人用戶本身在契約訂定上有明定同意,那有沒有侵犯到個人隱私? |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7973.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7980.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我申辦門號的人跟手機門號公司我有這個約定說這個可以從一做商業應用或者做學術研究可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7991.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7998.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
基本上如果是有經過用戶同意的話是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8019.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8042.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
他能顯示輪廓不能回推個人部長你到底瞭解這樣的一個經常性的應用嗎部長你對這樣的應用瞭解嗎這個市場有這樣的一個應用好那我接下來要問到你了往下看其實呢手機訊號用於商業或學術以及犯罪偵查的區別我大概簡單的闡明一下基於商業的目的或學術研究呢他通常呢是根據各執法及 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8042.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8071.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
契約的約定那原則要當事人同意那你看到這麼一群人他是分析群體的輪廓他大概知道說什麼特性的人在什麼時候大概會在什麼地方出現誰具體誰他去識別他不知道但是我們犯罪偵查就不同了我們犯罪偵查要識別犯罪者在這些通聯的網路的通聯記錄當中我要找到什麼我要根據刑訴跟通保法的過去呢內容依照法律的規定找出幾種第一個特定的嫌疑人 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8072.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8093.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
但是我要區隔出什麼?潛在的受害人 有時候犯罪者是跟受害人聯繫的以及共犯以外的第三人 比如說家人、商業網絡上的其他無相關的客戶 是不是這樣子?所以這是我們在手機訊號上就現在說的網路的這個通訊流量或相關的通聯記錄 在使用上的目的是不一樣的 對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8094.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8116.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
所以正因為我們犯罪偵查必須明確的鎖定個人所以我們就必須要法律上授權上有包括檢察官保留法官保留跟一個必要的後面的救濟保障是不是這樣的原因是嗎請就麥跟我回答好是好那這樣我們往下看其實目前詐騙的前三名檢訊電話跟社群媒體社群媒體越來越多人使用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8116.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8142.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
其實電商平台或通訊軟體的電子郵件都是屬於電信或網路詐欺所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂就是因為我們的數位科技啊通訊非常的發達往下看所以我們舉這個例子以賴群來吸金詐騙我們叫這個案有個民眾失業了他上網有人邀請他加入個賴的投資群組成員當中其他的人跟他畫家場卸下心防成員的其他人然後慢慢的人就講到了什麼講到了有關股票啦虛擬貨幣的投資訊息要花錢加入專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8146.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8161.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
但是呢你給他的錢之後呢他就要叫你說你要退群跟著顧問學習操作等到他投了40萬那退了群學本無歸連被誰騙了都不知道部長你瞭解類似這樣的個案經常發生的情況嗎這個瞭解有齁好往下看齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8162.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8184.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
所以說警方或檢調怎麼調查呢首先嫌犯他既然涉及電信詐騙他一定有受害人受害人就報案警察受理之後他要去調查他要去跟電信業者調取使用者的資料這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平台配合他能確定嫌犯的真實身份是不是是這就是為什麼你們的條文當中為什麼要取得用戶的個人資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8185.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8185.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
．二、繼續併案審查二、繼續併案審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8206.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8233.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
時間頻率讓來判斷他聯絡的對象是他的家人還是共犯還是車手還是被害人所以我要再確認一次調取網路的流量記錄是不是是只能看到聯絡的記錄看不到內容看不到內容是啊你們就要必須根據外觀來判斷嗎是這樣嗎就是從這些裡面去做判斷所以這也是為什麼你們需要取得這個流量記錄的原因往下看其實我們目前呢在沒有通訊保障修改之前平台業者怎麼回應警方檢調他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8234.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8254.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
要求提供這些個資,譬如說我們搜索Dcard、FB,有17個重案個資,LINE也要搜索票,我們看一下,FB、IG,怎麼樣,重案就提供,LINE的話要搜索票,Dcard要搜索票,是不是這樣子,實務上是不是這樣子?是。是,您也知道還是要問副署長才知道,您確定是這樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8257.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8276.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
目前這些大的平台他的態度是不一樣的為什麼因為沒有法律的授權他們可以拒絕是不是這樣好那往下看所以目前我們看通訊保障第11條之一我們這第一項當中我們就看到了其實這裡面有三個重點第一個三年以上我們這次最重本刑三年以上的拿掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8276.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8297.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那把檢察官保留呢擴充到也提供給司法警察官那最後呢書面和請法院調取票現在這個也拿掉了是不是這樣子沒有法官保留了嘛那使用者呢從檢察官發動到司法警察官都會發動那麼連本行的規定剛剛結尾委員都問過了請問一下你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8299.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8320.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個第一這個是本來就我們德國跟美國的立法力本來就沒有這一種的而且這個這個完全沒有涉及到在你們今天的報告說明當中有收到德國的刑法有這樣的一個立法力就是這個東西是只屬於司法警察官就可以開始發動的是不是這樣對所以你們是參照德國的例子德國美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8321.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8342.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
好那我來看一下往下看喔但是我們看一下我舉個例子齁我舉例啦我常常去捐血捐血到時候他要填一個單子他說你同不同意你這些個資可以做學術研究我同意你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做做宣導我說啊可以啦鼓勵大家捐血嘛那你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚我說那不用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8343.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8358.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
為什麼捐血的時候他要尊重我但是如果說今天衛福部基於疫病的調查要做疫調他擔心我的血有汙染他強迫捐血中心取得我的個資瞭解我這捐血的流向你覺得有沒有可以可不可以有沒有法律的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8360.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8379.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個是屬於個人資料保護法對不對?這個不是我們通報法的?部長可能我了解您的理解的問題的認知好我這樣講齁這個根據傳染病防治法就可以啦根據傳染病防治法基於公益的目的他可以為了瞭解我的血液的分布的流向他可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8380.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8392.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
同樣的道理我們剛剛講我們個人跟手機業者的這些個人的契約內容我有的同意有的不同意但是基於我們犯罪的偵查你們認為有法律授權當然可以拿到嘛是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8393.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8417.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
當然可以去取得嘛前提是要法律授權嘛但是法律授權之外有什麼要求呢我們往下看喔修正草案的第三之一條的第三項這個網路的流量紀錄剛剛一直在談到了沈博洋委員也問到了這些內容細微的差別對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的所以他剛剛很細緻的問到了一些問題你們回去要趕快的把它區分清楚同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8420.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8427.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
接下來本來的原則是由檢警申請經法官同意修正了但是有些重罪就無需法官保留為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8428.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8455.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
因為急迫性而且是要快速處理快速處理好但是不管是取得他的流量紀錄或者甚至只是瞭解他的使用的資料那麼被調查人士會知道嗎剛剛一直在問這個問題啊莊委員也是啊還有誰還有羅委員也是啊所以我是覺得你們對這個部分有沒有一個想法那個整個要區分那個要層次性的一個處理嗎對流量紀錄比較影響大對對他一定要通知嘛但是條文當中有寫到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8457.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8458.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
昨天我們在審我們的這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8474.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8489.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
科技偵查法的時候我們有說其實相較於科技偵查法只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具但是到這個部分通訊保障的部分因為雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察但是對於各自的使用對於流量的紀錄的取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8492.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8516.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這會對當事人的隱私跟人權有些影響所以我請你們要趕快去思考條文雖然目前的願滿條文並沒有明定但是後續的執行的細則你們要趕快的去思考程序上要予以規範包括警務人員的教育訓練要予以增強正確的觀念那我希望在待會後面逐條的部分呢是不是你們對於可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8516.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8532.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
復代決議你們要先行研議可以嗎OK那最後的結論我們同意強化偵查效能來達到打造的目標但是我們也希望你們完善各自的保護並考量告知跟就近的機制這個是我們每個人遇到這種情況我可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8533.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8553.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
在犯罪政策當中少到的可能的一個無辜的第三人但是我有權利知道我的個資曾經被這樣的當然是準個資啦進入這樣的一個犯罪政策的使用我有權利知道你同意嗎在這邊我們還是我們會去再做釐清好那趕快好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝鍾嘉斌昭偉那也謝謝部長的備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8567.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8580.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
好接下來我們請油耗委員油耗油耗委員不在我們請賴世保委員賴世保賴世保委員不在我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們請吳釗偉中線吳釗偉中線吳釗偉中線不在吼那我們請吳委員私謠發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8588.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8604.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
在這裡先做預告待會我們委員會發言之後我們再進行後續的議程處理可能會參照昨天的方式先進行條文的宣讀然後再休息那宣讀時間大概要20分鐘的時間讓大家有充分的時間休息好請好謝謝主席部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8610.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8610.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8634.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8657.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
其實我認為確實在執法的部分在更有層次的一些分析上我們還要在條文當中再做補強好下一頁所以這我也分享昨天我為什麼覺得現在打詐司法必須先通過確實我們面臨了詐欺案的逐年攀升已經是各類刑案之冠 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8658.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8677.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
而當中以右邊這個表格五年來詐欺罪共貞節了五十萬七千八百五十九人當中百分之六十三六成三是電信詐欺恐嚇案最多所以我們需要強化偵辦的工具我同意下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8678.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8697.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
而當中呢、詐欺案件是網路犯罪之慣這是我進一步去調閱內政部警政署的資料請看我左邊的這個圖四大類的網路犯罪詐欺、妨礙名譽、妨礙電腦使用以及侵害智慧財產權四大類 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8700.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8727.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
當中呢後三類都是逐年下降的有的下降的比例是越來越高譬如說侵害這個智慧財產權其實它已經下降到只剩下6.9%這個是有很好的一個我們透過各種管道去做宣導所以這個制裁權的部分已經下降很多但是唯有一類就是詐欺類在網路犯罪上是一直的攀升 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8728.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8740.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
來到三乘四來到三乘四所以說我們當然也不得不支持啊今天的工具讓你們更能靈活的使用好下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8741.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8761.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以這是這一次的修法重點我就不再贅述下一頁那也透過這一次的增修我們可以擴大實施通訊監察之罪的大概是十三部法律那數十項都可以來擴大使用我也不贅述下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8762.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8776.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那剛剛我非常同意就順著剛剛我們嘉賓趙薇所說的雖然我們通保法的修法之後我們不涉及內容但是畢竟對於隱私的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8777.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8788.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
不可說不到啦所以執法一般來講喔因為您剛也提到說很多的包括當事人通知啦確保人權啦這些會用執法來規範一般來講是法律通過之後六個月之內提出執法但是我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8795.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8817.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
如果你不能夠更早把司法的方向或者是期程在這裡承諾我們早一點來完備其實我們要授權給你連我自己是執政黨的委員我都覺得有所保留所以相關的司法有多少你們在進入研議或者是已經有的期程是如何來就教於部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8822.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8848.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
你要先讓我們知道安我們的心喔否則就是一個空白的授權這個執法齁這部分齁一十四條這草案十四條之一的第六項齁這部分執法這部分我們還是法務部還是要會同會同內會有幾個相關執法這個有會是需要那個舊式法條規定以及是需要以及是需要是幾個你們現在都沒有方向某某標標 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8853.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8859.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
你們去準備一下資料好嗎?我們等一下逐條咧。因為我們每個條文相關...當然當然啦。那事情細則你會有相關的會有幾個事情細則? |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8865.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8883.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
就一個就好了就一個就夠了是嗎一個授權的一個執法那你會拖到6個月之後修法完備6個月之後才推出嗎我們會努力在6個月內完成我覺得6個月是給你最長的期限這個一旦下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8884.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8885.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
二（二（ |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8915.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8941.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
網路的恐嚇性假投資信件資安的攻擊性還有我現在要論述的就是兒少性私密影像的部分昨天呢未還委員會我也有提案針對兒少性剝削的這個相關的條例的協商已經有擴大要求我這裡來跟您報告昨天通過的結論也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8942.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8958.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
被害人不需要自己去搜集性影像被害的那些部分讓查緝犯罪更有利的話就必須建立一個性影像數位的鑑識資料庫這是昨天的結論而且也新增了三個犯罪樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8961.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8982.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
購買、下載都一併要被懲處就是無故重置兒少性影像支付對價持有兒少性影像以及支付對價來觀賞兒少的性影像這個是昨天協商完的我是建議部長要去follow我們昨天的另外一套相關法律的一個協商進度下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8983.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8998.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我們來看看兒少性剝削的犯罪。左邊這個表格告訴了我們,兒少性剝削的案例有七成是運用網路社群、通訊軟體或其他的社群平台來犯罪。 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8999.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9016.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以當然社群平台的偵辦很重要而右邊這個數字我覺得非常的驚悚這是美國的資料顯示全球的兒少性剝削的影像居然來自台灣IP的通報數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9019.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9047.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
從2019的三萬三千多件到2022來到七萬兩千九百零二件成長了二點三倍我不想讓台灣慣上這種是不是兒少性剝削影像的來源國我們要努力去洗刷這樣子的一個罪名所以網路的IP成為調查的重中之重下一頁下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9048.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9064.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
再下一頁我個人一直有一個遺憾當我看到為了打詐防詐抗詐行政院可以一次提出四法一個專法一個科證法一個通保法對不對我們四法一起來處理它 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9066.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9092.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
但是呢對於性影像的犯罪的雙軌防治目前只對於兒少的受害案件建立起比較高的防護作為跟偵辦的行動的增加但是對於成人受害的案件這一次並沒有一致性的跟上來所以我是在這裡提出呼籲跟要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9093.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9116.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我過去都在其他委員會我在教育文化委員會我沒有機會跟法務部有比較多的這個溝通跟建議的機會有關性影像相關的犯罪目前是散落在四個法律嘛刑法還有兒少性剝削防止條例性侵害犯罪防治法還有犯罪被害人的保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9116.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9125.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
其實吳思瑤本人我本席我一直在倡議我已經倡議了兩年多我們需要有一個信 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9127.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9155.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
信私密影像犯罪防治的專法才能夠從兒少到成人從提高法則到前端所有的建制預防調查偵辦跟刑度我一直認為要有一部專法就比較我們打架司法有一個更新的高位代表國家的重視那我不曉得部長因為您新上任你對於我的這個倡議 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9157.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9170.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我已經講了三年了兩年多了您認不認為可以來演繹有一個專法來擴大針對性私密影像的犯罪防治不只現在著重而少對於成人的也要一起來強化防護 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9172.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9173.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我都知道啊。我都參與啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9190.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9203.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
因為現在你看到都在保護兒少的比較多可是事實上性影像被流散被重置被有價的關懶的受害者多數是成人 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9204.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9232.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以這部分我們這次在通訊保障也有修正就是這部分委員關心這個承認的這部分也列入了列入了那個通訊監察大家都頭痛一頭腳痛一腳好沒有關係我不會放棄努力我認為我看到了這樣一個犯罪行為的很不幸的它的發展趨勢就如同詐欺詐騙案類我們可以用一個更全觀的方式來統合性的處理它我還是認為我們可以研議一下好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9232.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9251.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
好謝謝委員好吧我們後續再努力好時間到謝謝謝謝吳委員謝謝部長所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9252.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9273.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
委員陳冠廷、翁曉琳、吳宗憲所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆現在進行討論事項先請議事人員宣讀提案條文宣讀後而我們會休息到11點半再進行討論如有修正動議請一併宣讀請宣讀時間大約20分 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9277.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9297.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案行政院提案第三條之一除第一項首句末的者字刪除第二句句首的為電信使用人修正為指用戶或電信使用人第三句句首的電信系統修正為公眾電信網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9298.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9321.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
第二項手具中的支字刪除第二具具手的為電信使用者修正為指用戶或電信使用人令增訂第三項為本法所稱網路流量記錄指用戶或電信使用人使用電信服務後公眾電信網路所產生之通訊設備識別資料網際網路網址與位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9326.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9341.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
網際網路位置與位置、資訊、通訊時間、連線用量與封包數量、網域名稱、應用服務類型及協定等記錄、其餘未修正。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三條之一對照行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9342.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9362.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
除第三項第三具開始修正為公眾電信網路所產生之發送方與接送方之網際網路位置通訊起器時間通訊鋪協定封包大小及數量查詢與回應之網域名稱系統及其網 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9365.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9386.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
及其域名解析器與域名伺服器協力查詢資源等未涉及通訊內容之記錄其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第5條除第1項續文末的據點修正為分號第二款條文中 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9388.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9398.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
第109條第一項第三項第四項修正為第109條第一項及其未遂犯第四項令第121條後的第一項刪除第131條後的第一項刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9403.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9420.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
第143條後的第一項刪除令本款後段修正為第256條第一項及其未遂範第二百五十七條第一項及其未遂範第二百九十八條第二項及其未遂範第三百條第三百零二條第一項第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9421.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9442.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
第三百零二條之一第一項第三項第三百十九條之一第二項第三項及該二項之謂稅範第三百十九條之二第三百十九條之三第三百十九條之四第三百三十九條第三百三十九條之三第三百三十九條之四或第三百四十六條之最 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9443.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9464.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
第七款及第八款修正維期期貨交易法第112條第五項或第113條之罪。八、槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第十二條第一項第二項及該二項之未遂犯第四項或第十三條第二項及其未遂犯第四項之罪。 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9465.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9480.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
第十款之第十三款修正為十農會法第四十七條之一第一項或第四十七條之二第一項第二項之罪十一漁會法第五十條之一第一項或第五十條之二第一項第二項之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9481.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9493.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
二、兒童及少年性剝削防治條例第32條第1項、第3項、第4項及該3項之謂稅範、第36條第1項、第4項及該2項之謂稅範、第38條第1項、第3項及第4項之罪十三、洗錢防治法第19條、第20條或滋恐防治法第8條、第9條之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9506.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9535.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
第14款條文中第二項後段修正為第4條第15款條文中第24條第二項後增定及其未遂犯令增定第19款至第21款為19國家安全法第7條第二項第三項及該二項之未遂犯之罪二十反滲透法第三條第四條之罪二十一人口販運防治法第二十九條第三十條第三十一條第三十三條之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9536.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9549.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條除第一項第二款條文中第121條後的第一項刪除第131條後的第一項刪除第143條後的第一項刪除並第七款條文中的第一項第二項刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9561.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9576.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
第十三款修正為十三洗錢法洗錢防治法第十四條第一項第二項司恐防治法第八條之罪第十四款條文中第二項後段等字三除其餘未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9579.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9603.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
行政院提案第六條除第一項中段修正為組織犯罪防治條例第三條洗錢防治法第十九條滋恐防治法第八條刑法第二百二十二條第二百二十六條第二百七十一條第三百零二條之一第三百二十五條第三百二十六條第三百二十八條第三百三十條第三百三十二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9605.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9631.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
第三百三十九條第三百三十九條之三或第三百三十九條之四其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第六條除第一項條文中洗錢防治法第十一條第一項第二項第三項修正為洗錢防治法第十四條第一項第二項滋恐防治法第八條其餘未修正行政院提案第十一條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9634.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9647.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
檢察官司法警察官為偵查犯罪及收集資料由事實主任通訊使用者資料於本案之偵查有必要性及關聯性時得調取之檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9649.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9673.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
為偵查犯罪及收集資料由事實主任通信記錄或網路流量記錄於本案之偵查有必要性及關聯性時除有急迫情形不及事先申請者外應以書面申請該管法院合法調取票申請書之應記載事項準用前條第一項之規定司法警察官未調 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9674.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9689.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
調查犯罪及收集資料有事實主任通信記錄或網路流量記錄與本案之調查有必要性及關聯性時得依前項規定報請檢察官許可後向該管法院申請合法調取票 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9690.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9718.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
檢察官司法警察官為偵辦最新本行十年以上有期徒刑之罪強盜搶奪詐欺恐嚇辱人勒俗防害電腦使用脫逃及違反人口販運防治法槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例懲治走私條例毒品危害防治條例組織犯罪防治條例廢棄物清理法兒童及少年性剝削防治條例洗錢防治法國家安全法反滲透法 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9720.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9749.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
總統、副總統選舉罷免法公職人員選舉罷免法農會法第47條之一至第47條之三與會法第50條之一至第50條之三等罪有事時足認通訊紀錄或網路流量紀錄與本案之偵查有必要性及關聯性時得由檢察官依職權或司法檢察官經檢察官許可後調取通訊紀錄或網路流量紀錄不受前二項之限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9750.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9761.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
一、第二項急迫情形調取通訊紀錄或網路流量紀錄後應於二十四小時內向法院補行申請調取票。 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9763.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9781.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
掉取票應記載下列事項一按由二應掉取之通信記錄或網路流量記錄三有效期間欲其不得執行掉取及掉取後應將掉取票交回之意旨第二項第三項及第五項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9784.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9808.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
和發調取票之程序不公開之有調取第七條之監察對象通訊紀錄網路流量紀錄或通訊使用者資料必要者由中理國家情報工作機關向電信事業設置公眾電信網路者或郵政事業調取不受前八項之限制檢察官司法警察官為偵查犯罪及收集證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9811.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9822.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
經用戶或電信使用人同意得調取其通訊使用者資料通信記錄或網路流量記錄不受第一項至第八項之限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9824.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9854.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條之一對照行政院提案除第一項修正為檢察官司法警察官為偵辦犯罪或收集資料有事實主任通訊使用者資料與本案之偵查之偵辦有必要性及關聯性時得由檢察官依職權或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後調取之司法警察官如任有及破信心者 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9855.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9860.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
得進行調取之,並於調取後立即報請檢察官許可。 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9861.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9879.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
第二項守據中及修正違或第三項守據中及修正違或第四項條文中段修正為廢棄物清理法總統副總統選舉罷免法公職人員選舉罷免法農會法第47條之一至第47條之三漁會法第50條之一至第50條之三農田水利會組織通則第38條之一、第38條之二等罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9890.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9917.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
第五項修正為第二項之急迫原因消滅後應向法院補刑申請調取票第十項前二具修正為檢察官司法檢察官為偵辦犯罪或收集證據得用戶或定性使用人之同意另末具修正為不受第一至八項之限制其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第十四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9918.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9925.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
除第二項手具具手的電信事業後增訂設置公眾電信網路者 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9928.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9949.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
第三項默劇中交通部修正為目的事業主管機關第四項手具聚首的電信事業之通訊系統修正為電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊監察建置機關指定者其通訊系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9951.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9962.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
第五項默劇中的交通部修正為目的事業主管機關其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第14條對照行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9963.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9982.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
除第四項前二具合併修正為電信事業及經通訊監察建置機關指定之建置公眾電信網路者之通訊系統應具有配合執行監察之功能其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第14條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9983.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9996.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者由保存及協助執行調取通訊使用者資料通信記錄之義務電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9998.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10024.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
監察至建置機關指定者由保存及協助執行調取網路流量記錄之義務電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者因協助執行調取前二項資料或記錄所生之必要費用於執行後得請求執行機關支付電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊監察至建置機關指定者其通訊或網路系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10026.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10046.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
應具有保存及執行調取網路流量記錄之功能並以公眾電信網路性能可予提供者為限電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊監察之建置機關指定者為建置保存網路流量記錄之系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10048.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10060.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
為建制保存網路流量紀錄之系統與維持保存及執行調取網路流量紀錄功能正常作業所生之必要費用由建制機關負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10062.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10081.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
網路流量記錄系統之設置方式保存方式保存期間查詢之作業程序調取之項目監察費額及其他相關事項之辦法由法務部會同內政部並會商國家通訊傳播委員會及相關機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10083.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10110.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團提案第14條之一電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者由保存及協助執行調取通訊使用者資料通信記錄網路流量記錄之義務電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者之通訊或網路系統應具有保存及執行調取通信記錄及網路流量記錄之功能並以公眾電信網路性能可予提供者為限 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10112.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10126.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者應協助執行調取通訊使用者資料通信記錄網路流量第一項記錄所生之必要費用於執行後得請求執行機關支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10127.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10153.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者為設置符合前項功能保存網路流量紀錄之系統及維持保存及調取第一項網路流量紀錄功能正常作業所生之必要費用由建制機關負擔其費用由目的事業主管機關會商有關機關訂定公告之通訊使用者資料通信資 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10154.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10177.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
通訊紀錄及網路流量紀錄之保存方式保存期間查詢之作業程序調取之項目與費額及其他相關事項之辦法由目的事業主管機關會商有關機關定之。行政院提案第29條除第一款至第三款末的者自均三除 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10178.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10205.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
另第二款修正為二．電信事業設置公眾電信網路者或郵政事業人員基於提供公共電信、公眾電信網路或郵政服務之目的而依有關法令執行其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第29條對照行政院提案除第一款至第三款末均增訂者自其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第31條 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10208.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10226.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
由協助執行通訊監察義務之電信事業設置公眾電信網路者及郵政事業違反第十四條第二項之規定者由該管目的事業主管機關處心台幣五十萬元以上二百五十萬元以下罰還經通知限期遵行而人不爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10228.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10254.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
而仍不遵行者按次處罰由保存及協助調取通訊使用者資料通信記錄或網路流量記錄義務之電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者違反第14條之一、第一項或第二項之規定者亦同對電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者之主管機關依本法所為之行政處分不符者直接適用行政訴訟程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10256.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10272.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團提案第31條對照行政院提案第一項及第二項除第一項第二句末的之規定者者自刪除第三句句首的由該管該管二字刪除末句後增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10273.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10293.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
並得廢止其特許許可登記或其公眾電信網路之網路設置核准及審驗合格證明之全部或一部第二項默劇中的或第二項等字刪除其餘同行政院提案第一項及第二項宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10859.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10884.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好繼續開會提案條文已宣布完畢現在進行討論事項並案審查行政院函請審議通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案等二案那麼本案經上午詢答後那各位委員我們就先大體討論請問委員是直接進入主條還是要先大體討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10887.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10913.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
有人煮這一頓嗎?那我們就省略大體討論直接進行主條那...抱歉我喘一下好那我們現在進行主條那麼首先是第三條之一有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案那是不是請民眾黨團有要先進行表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10915.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10940.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
阿勤阿勤主席喔就針對阿有關我們在第三條之一其實配合修正關鍵的條文是對於網路流量紀錄的定義啦那在網路流量紀錄Never Lock裡面事實上從Cisco1995年以後他其實不斷在演進那個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10941.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10960.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所謂的Net4Log它裡面所指涉的內容到底是什麼那我第一個因為其實我們在做定義的時候就是我第一個問題是說你們這裡的網路流量紀錄是不是已經包括了 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10961.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10985.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
通訊設備識別資料你們這個通訊設備識別資料指的是是IMDI嗎這個是我的第一個問題是你有包括那個設備的IMDI嗎因為通常我在講網路流量記錄的時候它事實上是在記錄的是那一個data |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10986.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11008.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
他的flow從哪邊出來?從哪邊收?所以你有Source的IP Address你有Destination的IP Address你有在過去的時候封包的數量封包的大小這個是我們在一般看網路流量紀錄的時候我們所做的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11009.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11025.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那在這邊你們的意思是說你們所所講的網路流量紀錄有包括了那個通訊設備的識別資料也就是可以特定到是哪一個特定的通訊設備嗎這個是我的第一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11028.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11044.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
如果是的話那這樣子的特定基本上面它的目的是什麼?它的目的是什麼?也就是說你藉由通訊設備的識別你是不是已經可以在這個流量記錄裡面去特定到每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11045.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11072.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
每一個設備就每一個設備他的識別嗎這個是我的第一個問題第二個問題是說我們其實不一樣的地方還有一個那個通訊庫的規定就是他在進行通訊的那個port是不是在你們的定義裡面是不需要收集的data這是我的第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11074.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11096.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
第三個事實上就網域名稱的系統你們用網域名稱的系統事實上包含了兩個部分也就是我在上面所寫的查詢跟回應的網域名稱系統然後以及域名解析器域名伺服器他協力查詢的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11098.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11123.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那基本上就網路流量記錄的這一件事情我們不會堅持要用自己的定義就是你們如果確定你們的定義是符合你們現在實際上面的需要的時候我們會尊重但我想要確定的一件事情是說第一個通訊設備識別資料指的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11124.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11150.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
因為我一般在看外國文獻的時候就NetFlow它事實上是不會有這個東西那你們是不是特地把它加進來目的是什麼那第二個部分是通訊付的部分這個Data是不是沒有需要那第三個部分你們針對網頁名稱的系統是不是就是這個概括的詞事實上包含了我剛剛所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11151.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11168.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那個查詢跟回遇的網域名稱系統跟域名解析器還有域名伺服器的協力查詢資訊。那就這個部分你們希望按照你們這樣子抽象的寫那還是能夠像我們在黨團的版本裡面寫得更具體一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11168.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11190.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
因為我們寫的具體的部分是按照目前網際網路位置及頂級網域名稱注冊管理業務監督辦法我們針對於網域名稱系統它所做的定義把它做了一字化把它做了一字化的定義那就這個部分看是不是再請主席請主管機關表示一下他們的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11191.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11205.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
謝謝王委員因為這邊涉及到的是設備端的專業專有名詞是否指涉的是相同的對象或者說目前通用或限定的名詞是哪些來我們審委員先詢問後我們再統一請法務部這邊回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11206.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11234.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
好我想說在法務部回答之前我想說就是在確認一件事情跟剛剛那個那個那個黃委員講的一樣就是因為在這邊呢並沒有特別把因為原來的行政院的版本有這一個呃設識別資料所以識別資料這一邊到底指的是什麼還有他會拿到哪些還有device id有imei有imsi到底他拿的是什麼東西因為這個在這個民眾黨的那個版本是沒有的我覺得這是一個巨大的差異我覺得這個一定要先優先說明那後面那個我我倒是沒有什麼意見謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11236.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11264.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好,請列席官說明。好,不。跟貴委員報告那關於這一個網路流量的內容在怎麼去定性它事實上我們在討論之前因為我們已經融合了我們兩個建制機關一個是調查局跟刑事警察局它辦案需求上作為一個統合性的把它規範成這個我們縣版這個條文的這個定性的模式那至於剛剛黃委員所提到的就是說有沒有包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11264.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11285.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
相關的這一個手機的音密或音息這部分那據我所知我根所知待會我請我們兩個建制機關再補充就是識別資料他是可以知道門號也可以知道序號但是是可以的那另外就是說通訊付的部分我們再請我們建制機關補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11287.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11312.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那網域名稱的部分那他們給我們的資料是說網域的名稱他可以去cover我們民眾黨所所所所包括的這幾個幾項的這個比較更具象的這個名詞啊這當然是一個科技技術上的一個定性名詞那可不可以用網域名稱去cover我待會再請我們建制機關補充請機關代表分別說明來請哪一個哪一位因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11314.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11323.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
行政警察局好請行政警察局代表那還有一位是調查局代表也請就位請先自我 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11324.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11348.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
介紹單位及職稱是主席各位委員好那我是新市局通訊檢查科科長林偉祥是那有關剛剛委員垂詢的部分那有關這個一米的部分這個通訊設備識別資料的部分那這個部分其實我們會希望是說那 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11350.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11378.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
根據這個法規的保留那我們希望是說使用者所使用的設備那為什麼會需要這個部分因為我們會需要知道說因為只有IP其實我是不知道他是誰在使用那經由IP的查詢他使用哪一種設備我們才有辦法去做後續的偵查那所以這個是我們考量過在犯罪偵查上面所必須的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11379.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11400.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
最少的一個欄位的需求那我們希望說這個欄位希望可以保留我不好意思主席我可以再進一步請教嗎可以好我現在大概比較清楚了齁因為其實你要的不是只有那個flow data其實你已經要特定到在那個IP address的時候他連的東西是什麼嗎設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11402.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11429.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那如果要特定到聯的東西是什麼的話你們在具體上面是你們認為IMEI就夠了不用到IMSI因為他那個equipment的序號那個東西到底是誰買的其實買手機是不需要有跟個人的資訊做強力的連結嘛我今天在地上撿到一支 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11431.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11431.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
二、繼續併案 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11453.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11476.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
這裡不是我的專業領域但是我們那時候在定義的時候我大概把在外國文件上NetFlow他的定義大概全部看完了我在裡面所有定義裡面我真的沒有看到一個是你們要到跟在設備端的device去做連結這樣子的程度當然啦我再強調一次因為我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11478.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11505.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
採取的是法官保留採取的是法官保留所以我覺得會盡可能滿足你們辦案上面的需求但如果是這個樣子的話我覺得道理更要講清楚要不然的話你們到時候會導致外界很多的疑慮跟批判比如說你如果是MDI的EI你只連接到那個equipment你真的有辦法跟使用者連接在一起嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11508.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11524.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
來請說明再來審委員謝謝委員的這個問題那這個部分其實我們如果做這個資料保留其實我們從IP的部分就可以查到說這個IP是由哪一家業者所配發 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11526.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11526.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
一）行政院函請審 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11556.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11583.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
對你犯罪的偵辦有什麼幫助這是我的問題科長科長我看喔需要科普一下啦是不是那個審委員說明一下我再試著把大家問題釐清瞭解你的需求那個審委員請因為我覺得我覺得還蠻重要的就是就跟國防部要作戰需求一樣你們有辦案需求啦所以到底是需要哪一個哪一個哪一件事情是你們最需要的像剛剛有提到第一個是device本身嘛不是device ID是那個MSI嘛對不對那個MEI然後另外一個是門號 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11584.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11613.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這個SI那另外一個是那個TMSI就是我我我將傳給中華電視中華電視要回傳給我的那一個這一個其實我覺得搞不好比較不容易其實到時候你問大家都有辦法特定啦但是在最後這個TMSI搞不好是屬於剛剛講的這個flow的一部分其實這個flow我們要怎麼定義我們國家可以自己定義但現在問題就是說哪一個才是最需要的然後我們再來去盤點說因為後續要到底要怎樣的保留嗎就是說到底我們要檢察官保留還是要什麼之類的我們要先把這個定性所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11613.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11639.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
是不是可以說明就是說比如說幾個辦案的情境那你們最需要的會是哪一個數據資料科長在你答覆之前因為要幫助大家我試著用一般常識啦我們用戶會有一個手機門號是系統給的那系統會給我們一個SIM卡讓我跟我的手持設備做連結那手持設備可能是蘋果手機它有一個設備手持設備的單機的ID所以有三個東西一般我們只記得撥的號碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11640.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11641.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
二、繼續併案審查namon |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11663.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11676.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
大概這個情況所以至少有三個手機門號、SIM卡的ID跟手機設備的ID那剛剛省委員的部分可能已經包含了更多那希望你們說明具體說明你們需要怎麼來辦案 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11678.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11695.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
在這邊補充那其實因為我們在網路流量紀錄的部分其實是沒有內容沒有保存通訊內容那所以我們如果經由這個網路流量紀錄去查詢到相關的犯罪者的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11696.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11723.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我去追蹤到誰在用這個IP但是他所使用的設備是不是涉及到真正的這些犯罪內容我可能需要知道說他是不是真的用這個設備那我們在以目前來講我後續可以去做相關的手機鑑識的動作去確認相關的這些詐騙行為是不是存在這個雙方的這個設備當中那這個部分就需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11725.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11737.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
需要這個參數再去做後續的偵查使用所以剛剛沈委員講的那幾個參數跟黃委員講的那幾個參數他所指稱的名稱是不是你們認為就是以概括的寫在通訊設備識別資料裡面就夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11740.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11768.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
不需要再細的去一一表達還是未來在你們的細則當中在操作的時候你會跟業者因為你們要根據法律的授權是訂定施行細則那這細則是你們跟業者相關溝通的一個依據那業者就根據你們這個依據他提供嘛所以你的細則如果沒有載明業者會說這個是立法通過要給你們要的嗎現在我們擔心的是這個部分嘛你不講清楚你們可以說這個都是我要的啊因為立法院通過法律啦那個設備就包含這些這些這些啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11774.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11794.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那我們預計留存的手機門號序號跟卡號那這個部分就是包含來源手機的跟目的手機的門號然後來源手機跟目的手機的序號還有信卡雙方來源跟目的手機的所使用的信卡的這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11804.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11822.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那我有一個建議就是說因為在修法裡有講到像未涉及內容然後民眾黨黨團的是把未涉及內容放在這個本文那我覺得因為如果是這個樣子的話未涉及內容這句話特別重要所以不知道你們的意見是什麼就是未涉及內容這個東西需不需要把它放在法條上 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11836.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11857.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
黃總長我必須要講說為什麼當初在提的時候我特別把沒有涉及通訊的內容放在法律條文當中而不是像你們放在立法理由裡因為這個老實說啦去收集這個data在國外其實不是什麼新鮮事但是在台灣是第一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11858.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11887.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以我們在走這一步的時候不要去引發一些不必要的臆測跟困擾所以你們是不是看你們要考慮一下是不是像我們這樣的寫法一樣把它寫在法律的條文當中這樣子大家會很清楚的知道跟通訊的contact是沒有關係的那莊委員完然後就要請答覆那你們試著想一下修正動議的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11889.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11899.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
謝謝我還是要來請教啦今天早上這個廳長還有部長的你們的回答讓我全部都聽不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11901.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11929.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
真的聽不懂之所以說聽不懂我還是從那個整個第三條之一啊那個整個第三項裡面啊本法所稱這個網路流量紀錄這個部分我再來讓你們就回憶一下啦早上大家講的我問的是說要不要告知義務那因為涉及到權力救濟我們在刑訴訴訟法第416條裡面我們在2014年修法的時候把通訊監察部分我們就放進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11931.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11938.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那也就是說你要屬於通訊監察你才有救濟喔才有刑處訴訟法第416條針對這個部分來申請這個這個說出的法案來撤銷跟變更喔那好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11945.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11960.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
早上我不是問嗎說為什麼沒有新增那個網路流量的告知權的一個要求對不對那法務部的講法是說如果是為了要救濟啊是不是要給予通知跟救濟應該由司法來整盤的考量啊你們的考量是什麼顯然你們是沒有答案的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11962.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11976.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
不是嗎?顯然你們是在這個法律你要立法院來給你做出最後的一個決定要通過這個法律以前你們還沒有考慮好喔因為我還真的沒有看到啊這是事實嘛那另外就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11978.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12001.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那後來部長是講說要用刑處訴訟法416來提供救濟好啦講了一半你就上來了嗎聽到你就上來了嗎對人民的權益只要有侵害應該都給有救濟的一個機會法務部的立場是表明說認同流量紀錄如果是屬於通訊監察所以才會適用整個刑處的一個救濟你都沒通知我被他救濟你這不是矛盾嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12005.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12028.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以這個核心的大家先講清楚啦這個三條之一裡面所稱的一個這個流量這個網路流量記錄的部分我的還是認為啦這個是憲法保障的一個資訊的一個自主權啦這個資訊的一個自主權啦那部長早上是講說只要使用基本資料是非常經緯的是要法官保留是經過許可的這個意思是他認為不是喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12032.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12058.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
所以才有聽長你上來救援喔他說這個部長講完修正三之一啊這不是通訊的內容只是一個數位的軌跡聽長你早上的講話我就覺得更奇怪了就是說你說按照法部的定義如果不是的話把使用者的資訊通訊的一個記錄做了不同的定義你再跟他說這個我現在整個路上都在想我是說聽長你怎麼這麼有智慧說的我都聽不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12062.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12077.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
所以說那要定義什麼那聽到你說當事人的不符的救濟程序416條準抗告程序擴張解釋是可以處理的我們為什麼要擴張解釋你為什麼不把它定義清楚一定要來擴張解釋416條這個是我的重點因為你們是司法你現在不是跟法務部綁在一塊的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12085.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12100.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
當初為什麼整個通訊監察裡面到最後那個大官會議解釋會把他認為說是違憲的地方就認為說你法院你畢竟是一個比較屬於聽訟比較屬於客觀的一個第三者是這個原因才放到你們那邊去的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12101.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12121.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以我的結論就是說這個流量網路流量的一個紀錄這樣的一個告知權部長跟廳長如果法務部如果跟司法院認同是救濟是準用416好那你如果要準用的話那你得有告知因為這個弄下去是神不知鬼不覺喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12122.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12129.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
沒有人知道的喔尤其涉及到你用第7條那個霸王帝王條款以後你20沒超過24小時沒連續48小時這個部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12135.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12162.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
沒有任何義務可以,你們那個司法部門有任何義務去告知的喔。這樣你們現在告訴我救濟,所以我不覺得說這個就奇怪了啦。這個到底網路流量記錄到底是不是通訊監察的一部分要定位清楚。如果是,那你要有救濟。那你要救濟的話,你就必須要有告知。那你如果認為不是要用擴張去處理, |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12165.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12181.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
聽證的意思是可以準用416可以準用就等於是你認同法務部又認為不是你們法務部跟司法院就在打架了我覺得我提的是核心問題我只是提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12182.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12193.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
真的 這個還涉及到整個權力救濟的問題啦再想一下 你們可以回答我嗎主席這邊先處理一下會議時間好不好 那個莊委我先處理會議時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12195.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12201.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我們先處理會議時間主席這邊先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至議程討論事項處理完畢為止那我現在先把剛剛討論的部分因為莊委員進來的這個部分跟前面黃總召所提的那剛剛省委員我先做文字上的一個整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12221.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12237.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那麼剛剛省委員的一個看法綜合我們黃總召就是在第三項的最後最後一行服務類型及協定等後面的加入民眾黨團版的那八個字未涉及通訊內容之 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12240.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12268.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
記錄那這樣的話呢這兩個版本如果不討論第三項那些包含的設備項目的名稱紙色如果紙色的內容是一樣只是名稱用法不同那麼或許在行政院版的最後第三項的最後一句話加上民眾黨團版的那八個字就達到剛剛那樣的效果第二就是專委員的問題就是說是不是加了這幾個字未涉及通訊內容的字樣就表達了 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12269.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12286.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
網絡流量紀錄有別於通訊內容的敏感性．他對於個人隱私的影響就不強度不及於需要到更嚴格的保留或者是救濟還是說就算是 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12287.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12288.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
二）行政院函請審 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12307.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12326.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
各位報告那我們在修正第三條之一的網路流量記錄的定義的部分其實我們列舉那六大項就是說在定性上它想當然就沒有涉及到所謂的通訊內容的資料那如果這個立法模式是比照我們第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12327.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12351.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
第二項的通訊記錄那些記錄其實也都沒有涉及內容但是我們原來的條文也沒有把它寫出來說為涉及通訊內容之記錄也沒有把它標示出來所以說在列就想當然他當然沒有涉及到通訊內容但如果說如果說大院覺得就是說加上這個幾個字外界可以適宜的話那我們也尊重大院的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12354.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12378.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
關於那個莊委員的意見提到這個通知跟救濟的問題啦吼那事實上我跟莊委員報告啦吼我們訴訟法上有很多的偵查作為假外很多的偵查作為包括司法警察有很多的偵查作為並不是所有的偵查作為都一定要告知或事後一定有讓他救濟的一個途徑這涉及到一個層級化的保障的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12379.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12401.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
市長我就反對了你那個強制處分你這種通訊監察比一般的強制處分還強大而且都沒有人知道這個影響才可怕對跟委員報告我們這個架構是在原來的通保法的架構底下在進行的原來的通保法裡面就通信記錄的調取這部分本來就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12402.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12403.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．則不復議同意書．則不復議 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12423.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12448.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
只是我們這次原來只有通訊紀錄我們現在多了一個叫做網路流量紀錄這個東西我們不去變動原來通訊保障法相關的救濟的機制架構以上補充我提到14條之一來請羅委員然後再來是吳昭偉我真的非常認同剛剛那個專業選委員講的說說認第一個這是新法其實你在試我要講說新規定啦新規定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12449.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12476.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
你今天適用的那個太陽竟然是新的太陽的話那我要講的是你過去你前面要講的所有東西因為要打擊詐騙我也講過你們其實不只是打擊詐騙啦你這個法律的所有適用是包含所有犯罪太陽啦大部分犯罪太陽幾乎看不出寒瓜進去可是事前你今天為了所謂的你的偵辦的一個所謂效率辦案的效率事前部分我保留我沒有表達一個偏向的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12477.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12504.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
但是你連事後你的通知你都不願意做這點其實你已經在侵犯到說基本上我們自己的通訊的通聯的秘密跟網路的所謂的那個秘密這種情況之下你做事後通知那確實會有人力上的增加可是你不要跟我講說人力的增加就作為說今天我可以侵犯人民隱私的一個藉口外面其實民眾對這件事情我認為是很多保留的態度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12505.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12529.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
這是我今天早上質詢的過程當中說今天比方說我們專委員他已經從科技偵察法到現在都講一個重點今天因為沒有這些事後的一些機制存在他變成一個情況就是說事實上我今天不管是用GPS定位不管是調你的通聯不管是調你的所謂的網路的那個流量記錄我調完之後神不知鬼不覺你只有你們執法單位知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12530.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12547.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
然後呢換言之到最後這些資料會到哪裡去也只有你們自己執法單位自己做內控去管制可是今天我們是當時我被柯真了我被這個所謂的那個通訊通聯的那個調查了解了我被今天你的網路去查我的網路的那個那個記錄了 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12548.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12576.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
這種情況之下我當然當事人我覺得事前你可以為了犯罪征訪你沒有辦法告訴我這我覺得可以接受但事後你今天跟我講你不需要通知抱歉我覺得我是覺得是連這一點我覺得執法單位都要拿這個當作所謂的他一直說這個影響範圍很輕範圍輕重我覺得也不是執法單位一句話說的也不是法務部一句話說的你去問民眾到底他覺得重不重他覺得侵犯重不重 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12577.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12599.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我們會擔心說今天這些資料你們拿去用了以後我早上質詢也講啊雖然你們一直講說你們偵查不公開做得很好啊可是實際上現在所有的社會大眾觀感是什麼今天我去作證的時候我就發現馬上隔天報紙都出來了原因是什麼原因是你們內控機制到現在為止我沒有看到內控機制的績效嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12600.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12619.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那你今天叫我空白授權給你然後說連通知都不要我抱歉我覺得真的是這一部分我覺得我個人是有很大的保留啦以上謝謝那個在吳釗偉講之前剛剛其實次長你有提到通訊保障本身有依照它對象內容的強度做層次化不同的一個保障啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12620.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12620.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
一、繼續併案《通訊保障及監察法部分條文》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12640.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12653.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
我這邊有兩個文字可以給大家參考我待會請會務人員印給大家試著把剛剛大家討論的內容根據剛剛法務部的回應我把它試著文字化那接下來請吳昭偉有關這個部分我是滿認同莊瑞雄委員的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12661.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12690.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
因為其實從最近這幾個法的修正上面其實我是非常站在檢警的立場去思考每一個條文尤其是在偵查期間昨天我也有提到因為偵查是非常浮動的所以我希望在偵查的階段不要給太多的限制包括不需要每一個東西都要法官保留我希望說是一個讓他能夠充分的去行使他的偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12690.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12716.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
但是在結束之後我們是不是要做事後的通知我認為這一塊可能還是有它的必要性雖然目前對於那個調閱通聯我們是不需要做事後的通知但是其實我們可以回過頭去思考說這個東西是不是我們在調閱這些數位資料的話像從你這個相關的資料裡面你可以知道我有很多個人的習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12719.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12735.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
這跟打電話的那個通聯記錄不太一樣通聯記錄那個電話號碼你可能還要再去分析分析那個對象是誰嘛像以前我們都會從通聯去分析說如果說這個通聯如果只有15秒左右那應該都是買毒品用的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12736.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12737.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
一、繼續併案《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》案 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12760.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12787.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我個人認為說在偵查階段偵查的前階段你不通知不讓他知道這個是有偵查的必要性但是如果在案子結束之後是不是還是不要通知我覺得這個大家要思考一下當然啦案子在懲辦一定有它的例外嘛比如說我A案結束之後其實我引起另外一個B案要繼續辦那這個東西就暫時不通知我們可以用內控的方式去解決嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12788.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12790.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
二、繼續併案審查二）行政院函請審查二）行政院函 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12811.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12832.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這個可能要再去思考對不對而且我們是如果我們是把它設計在結案之後比如說你檢方已經起訴之後然後再定一個比如說起訴後兩個月內要通知給他們一個彈性但是我們做事後的告知民眾我不認為說這個會影響第一個我不認為這會影響到偵查第二個在人力上面我認為是 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12834.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12851.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
這個負荷是還好欸因為像最早期我想說在座比較資深的警察官應該知道早期的通訊監察結束之後的通知其實規範的非常的簡略所以當時有很多警察怎麼通知我在這邊跟大家報告實務上面有很多警察會故意遞資寫錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12853.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12867.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
然後就寄到別人家去別人也不知道這個人是誰但是在卷裡面看起來他已經通知了他已經完整他的程序了可是他實際上根本沒有通知到受監察人早期是這樣玩後來程序在慢慢補充到現在不會有這個狀況發生所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12870.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12883.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
有時候這樣啦就是我不能夠說就是一廂情願的認為說這個這個根本就不需要通知我覺得不是更何況說這些數位的資料就像我剛說的他可以分析出你的生活習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12884.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12913.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
就像我們以前在查一些案子的時候我們會從他的很多資料他上哪一些網站我就知道他喜歡什麼所以這個東西我個人認為說可能事後通知還是有他的必要性給大家參考謝謝吳昭偉待會我們請沈委員再來莊委員在他們兩位發言之前因為我們本條三條之一是在討論設備的名稱但是委員們關切的已經在本法的第15條關於結束後的一個告知但是因為15條在本制修法並沒有修所以我們無法對15條進行修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12915.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12933.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
道士十四條之一有寫到網路流量記錄的相關文字若委員們有關注的話可以到十四條之一在二十六月的部分去參考一下有沒有可能在那裡面把大家的意識放進去我現在已經有兩個附帶決議的文字供大家參考接下來我們請省委員再來莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12935.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12948.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
好我很快我剛剛要講一樣的事情就是說我們先把第三條之一搞定喔對因為通知在後面但的確因為這個15條這是沒有在裡面嘛齁那但是我的意思就是說第一個就是剛剛講的那個未涉及內容要不要放進去齁這是剛剛討論的那往剛剛聽起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12951.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12974.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
對於這個通訊設備識別資料看起來好像大家並沒有這個意見所以他應該會留著所以我是要確認這件事情那最後就是使用者資料、通聯紀錄、網路、流量、通訊內容這四個是不同層次啦那網路流量資料因為畢竟在這一次的11條質疑是把它放在法官保留所以我也是蠻贊成說可能要有一些告知義務啦因為畢竟他就是把隱私拉到那麼高拉到法官保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12976.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12991.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
來請莊委員謝謝其實在我我剛這樣提是希望說司法院跟法務部這邊我是做出一個提醒啦因為這個涉及到你像比如說我們三之一我當然知道在討論第三條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12993.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13010.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
還是要定性的問題的如果你認為這個整個網路的一個流量的一個記錄不屬於通訊監察你當然就不會跑到15條嘛剛吳宗憲委員他也有口誤的地方啦通訊監察當然那個是在所謂的第五條的部分那我會提到第七條八項條款第五項條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13012.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13016.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
其實我當然也知道那個分內容不同但是我是在講說整部法已經那麼強大了那你既然整個網路的流量這個部分你第15條你沒有修嘛你沒有修嘛那剛剛黃處長的講法是說我們在整個強制處分裡面有很多太陽啊確實啊沒有每一樣都受到告知啊可是我問你就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13035.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13059.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這一種涉及到整個資訊的一個自主喔這個是很強大的啦跟一般的強制處分不一樣啦因為強制處分你說你去搜索啦扣押的還有到現場去啊當事人我還可以說我可以請一個律師的你這都沒有啦你這件事都沒有沒有人知道啦我講一個最難聽的啦政黨最害怕的就是這種事啊每一個人當立法院可以當多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13060.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13065.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
可是問題是說你這個搞到最後這個你這個這一步法下去以後我擔心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13067.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13092.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
你們的立法的出發點當然是要打擊犯罪這對嘛但問題是說你這個對於整個憲法保障的權利做侵害的時候你說都沒有救濟手段沒有這樣的一個設計也很奇怪啦你認同它是一個權利啦我看廳長你也認為是一個權利啦有權利真的要有救濟啊那你有救濟你沒有告知這個你怎麼去救濟呢除非你告訴我這是很輕微的這哪算輕微 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13095.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13116.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我這個先大家先講清楚我做這樣的一個提醒好不好好那來那個省委員省發會委員好這個我想我回到這個第三條之一這個部分剛才在前面有很多專業性的討論那這個這個大致上就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13117.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13141.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我們這發言的委員就是擔心說我們在目前我們院盤的這些規定裡面有一些我們可能在偵查過程中應該其實應該取得的東西但是你們現在所列的這些要件並不包含這些但是這個我們法務部的說明就是說不已經包含了這個概念大概就是說你們覺得說我已經我需要我已經把寫出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13143.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13162.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
但你覺得他們有提的這些就是蚵仔、青菜、雞蛋你說我這個都就是已經蚵仔煎就已經有這些就已經爆發這些了但是有委員會說我這個不是不是不是青菜不是蚵仔我這個是牛肉啊我這是鮑魚啊你蚵仔煎沒有爆發我這個鮑魚在裡面啊那這個東西其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13164.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13180.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
因為這個偵查者是你們所以你們偵查的需求偵查單位的需求列出這樣子那我們對我們立法委員來講我們在立法過程中我們是善意提醒你們因為這會未來會牽涉到包括你們對於這些相關的這些這些這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13181.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13203.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
一．民間公司我們要求他們的這一些相關資料的法律依據那他也會牽涉到未來在相關案件在這個司法審判裡面這個法官的認知他是不是包含在你們所列的這些專業項目裡面那我個人是比較建議說我們是不是就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13204.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13217.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
如果我們現在偵查單位認為說這個部分他們需求的東西就是這些那我們就尊重願版的所列出來這些要件那其他所增列的這些東西這個未來如果你們真的認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13219.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13241.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
因為這個確實有一些在解釋上面的問題就光對那個Netflog的內容到底包括什麼東西剛才在這邊就已經在爭執他定義上就有爭執了所以這部分是不是未來齁你們再例如制定施行細則或者是以其他的方式我們再要必須要再讓他定義更明確化一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13242.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13246.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
好謝謝沈委員齁這個時段你講到額阿珍齁會有大家立刻其他聯想齁來那個請我們呃吳思揚 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13250.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13262.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我想很多討論我看到有兩個附帶決議還有等一下再看15條之後要不要再補充處理所以回到條文我覺得要考慮的就兩點剛剛民眾黨黨團裡面寫的比較細的這個起氣時間通訊鋪然後協定封包大小數量等等這些他們明列出來的如果已經含括在我們院版現在裡面寫的那個大主題裡面那個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13277.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13300.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
通訊設備識別資料裡面的話如果都include那就不用放我同意第二個最後一句話如果剛剛次長也講如果是為了讓閱讀者或是一般大家覺得比較有安心而且覺得可以接受的話放入這個未涉及通訊內容之記錄我個人是可以支持我覺得就直接處理條文好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13301.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13318.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13319.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13344.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
如果我們說不含動物性其他動物性蛋白質你要加進去讓人安心說不會吃到其他的牛肉啊豬肉的話是不是我們這一條我先待會因為要用正式的修正動議啦那是不是剛剛主席有做一個宣讀就是在行政院版的最後一行第三項最後一行服務類型及協定等加八個字未涉及通訊內容之那就接著記錄這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13345.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13368.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那雖然剛剛次長說沒有錯第一項第二項也是望聞生意又知道不含這個但是第三項呢大家可能擔心你額要在裡面參加火腿所以就乾脆想未含其他動物性蛋白就把它寫上去這樣比較安心那這個修正動議我們先討論到這先暫時結論原狀是照行政院版的文字後修正通過但是修正動議我再補請大家簽一下大家是否同意這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13369.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13397.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那最後我們再做個確認好不好可以喔那我們第三條之一我先暫時宣告案行政院版的文字修正後通過但是文字修正內容我們待會再請三黨團看過一遍再以正式修正同意方式給他確認接下來看第五條第五條有行政院版跟民眾黨團版的部分請問在場委員有沒有來詢問因為它是罪名的甄列 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13403.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13427.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
前財黨委員有沒有要進一步詢問的我可以問一下來請吳委員因為早上在質詢的時候我特別關心那個兒少性剝削的那個性私密影像的部分那個相關要查辦的部分所以我們有在這個第12款裡頭有處理但是我早上也有問到那對於成人的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13428.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13457.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
好,那早上那個部長告訴我說也有在裡面,它是放在哪裡?因為12款是主...是在二上席博爵,刑法的嗎?第二款的部分的319之一底下那個來吧,標籤牌319,319第二款下面的319條之一第二項,第三項319之一它就是去年過的姓氏名影像的相關的條文就只有這一款沒有漏掉沒有,它都是全部 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13457.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13484.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
整張的最多都包括進來了好在第七頁的部分第七頁下半段三百第三百十九條之一第二項第三項及該二項之未遂犯這一項對好OK好那如果委員同意那是不是我們第五條條文案行政院提案通過好通過那我們接下來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13487.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13510.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
第6條在這第6條部分有行政院提案跟民眾黨團版提案第6條是關於罪名修正的罪名跟程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13515.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13523.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
請問委員會對於第6條內容文字上他就是把罪名增列啦就增加一些增辦的項目那沒有問題的話來請那個黃總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13535.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13559.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那個針對第6條的部分基本上他只是就適用的罪名上面就主管機關法務部他們認為應該適用的罪名來予以針對這部分我竟表同意沒有問題不好意思因為剛其實第5條有相同的問題可是我要剛跑去交通委員會諮詢所以跳過去所以等一下問的內容如果剛第5條有討論過的話請見諒就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13562.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13578.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我們現在打詐專法裡面第43條跟44條你們所設定的法則的加重你們在定性上那個是形種性質的加重還是形分性質的加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13580.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13603.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
為什麼問這個問題因為我看起來像是刑分性質的加重那如果是刑分性質的加重的話他就是一個獨立的新的罪名那如果是獨立的新的罪名的話那我們這一次在配合整個修正你們現在裡面不管是第五條或者是第六條其實都沒有把現在正在併案審查的打詐專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13604.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13626.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
把他放到涵蓋的範圍當中我先以第五條來講第五條你因為第一款有最新本型三年以上有期徒刑所以你可以cover到打詐專法的43條這沒問題但是你cover不到44條那你如果到第六條的部分的時候到第六條的部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13627.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13645.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
因為你更是用列舉的方式連最新本刑三年以上都沒有嘛所以你在這裡面所條文的列的當中你當然有講說什麼你當然有講說啊刑法第三百三十九條三百三十九條之三三百三十九條之四嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13646.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13664.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那你說你如果連339的普通詐欺這都有了那334的加重詐欺當然要有嘛但你這次打詐專法的43條跟44條沒有必要放進去嗎那當然你們會說可能會說啦這個是未來的法律條文會不會通過我們還不確定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13667.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13691.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
但問題是你們在這一次修正的裡面條次上面的處理我已經看到你們把洗錢防治法第6條已經調到第19條了現在不是在19條了這個19條是未來的條次我的理解應該沒有錯啦所以你們在炒你這個草案的時候是說啊我們在整個立法上面把它看成是一個bundle |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13692.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13717.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
也就是說這一次通訊保障的修正跟洗房法的修正我們是把它掛在一起的我們到時候到院會的時候希望兩部法律都順利三讀通過那這樣子你這一次通訊保障的規定跟洗房法的規定條次才可以對在一起嘛你們在立法理由上是這樣寫好那既然你們已經考慮到了未來未來條次 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13719.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13746.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
更正也就是相關的法律修正以後的配套已經反映在你們這支行政院院盤那我的問題就來了除非你把打詐專法43條、44條你把它認為是總則的加重那如果是分則的加重的話你們認為需不需要在上面把它明定出來讓它是很清楚的在第五條跟第六條的設成範圍之內這個是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13749.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13761.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
好謝謝那麼是不是法務部這邊真的有人的要同意的答覆那剛剛的第三條的文字的修正已經是你好了待會發下去請各位參考好請次長呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13766.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13791.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
謝謝黃委員的提醒的確有黃委員提的那個法律上的一個問題我們打造專法我們在修的時候打造專法因為在同步在修所以我們原來草擬的時候打造專法那時候搞不好還沒有存在所以在條文的時候未來在試用上的確會有委員所提的那問題在43條的部分在監聽部分因為43條本身他是最終3年以上10年以下的罪所以他可以被這個第5條Cover第一項Cover第一款Cover沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13792.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13818.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那44條的部分呢那跟我們緊急的部分我們第6條的部分可能就因為我們認為它是刑分的加重不是一個刑總的加重它是一個獨立的犯罪類型並不是刑總加重所以呢它的確會有這個聯動修法的問題所以是不是就是說如果各大院支持的話我們負責修正把條文加進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13820.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13832.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那這樣好不好那個那個黃總長因為齁那個第五條剛剛雖然是已經討論通過第六條大家要討論其實啊我跟大家報告一下齁那麼這一次三法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13834.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13848.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
審查我們最後呢預告可能都以全案保留方式送交委員會出委員之前有一個黨團協商啊那個時候如果有些呃比較需要更深入的地方那個時候也可以再來做跨條次的處理好那請黃總長 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13852 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13876.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
謝謝因為這個問題釐清了以後我相信以後我們在打擊相關詐欺犯罪的時候就不會掛翼漏腕了好不容易搞了一個打詐專法好不容易有四三四四可以加重刑罰結果竟然沒有配套在通保法裡面這個真的是不好所以也感謝次長剛剛的說明釐清了講得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13877.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13896.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
打詐專法4344是刑法分責性質的加重已經構成了一個獨立的犯罪類型了嘛所以我們的修正動議其實剛剛也早就準備好了針對第五條跟第六條的修正動議第五條的部分因為有最新三年以上本期圖形可以cover43條嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13897.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13919.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
所以第五條的部分我們增略了打詐專法的44條第六條的部分因為沒有那個cover的條文所以43、44條兩個條文都必須要含掛在裡面那剛剛那個修正動議已經送出去了那我也尊重尊重沒有那個招委等一下可以發給大家啦因為我也沒有說今天一定說啊今天就按照我們的修正動議通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13921.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13936.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
稍為願意多保留一點時間給法務部看一下我們的修正動議看一看想一想覺得有道理把它納進去我們也沒有說今天一定說啊這個條文就按照我們修正動議送出去要保留也可以OK |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13936.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13948.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
主席在這邊口誤做一個更正我們還是希望全案審查完畢後保留送協商不是全案保留全案保留是沒有討論到一個共識今天我們希望審查完畢後全案送黨團協商現在有修正動議在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13953.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13978.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
那麼剛剛的第三條之一那請大家看一下文字的部分已經把剛剛民眾黨團的提案內容的部分文字融入那至於說剛剛雖然已經有審查通過說第五條但是呢如果大家願意我們第五條、第六條修正後請大家一併參考那我先做這個程序上的處理那請問第三條之一若以目前這樣修正後的文字加八個字那大家覺得是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13980.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13993.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
對,對,同意啦齁?同意好,那麼我們第三條之一按行政院提案文字修正後通過好,那剛剛第五條那第六條現在那個其他的修正動議是不是各位已經拿到手了?第五條第六條的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13996.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14009.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
還在硬喔那這樣好不好黃總召我們先往下推進可以回過頭來再來看齁那我們第6條先暫保留齁第11條之一有行政院提案跟民眾黨團提案是不是有要做補充來請黃總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14014.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14029.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
第11條之一其實是大家比較關注的條文我相信法務部也知道第一個我們先確認網路流量紀錄的部分我們還是採取法官保留要向法院申請調取票 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14030.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14056.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
跟我們在監聽的時候的那個監聽票採取相同高密度的法官保留這個我覺得在邁出第一步的時候雖然老實講網路流量記錄給你的資訊跟我們在打電話的時候聽的內容對隱私權保護侵害的程度其實也沒那麼嚴重但我還是贊成用法官保留但我今天在跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14060.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14082.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
部長交換意見的一件事情就是說那針對有關於使用者使用者的資訊比如說這個電話是誰的他住哪裡把他特定到人的那個使用者的資訊這一件事情你們有一定堅持說要一口氣就放給警察嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14084.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14098.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
因為當然這個是就是大家很注意很在意的事實你們是不是要考慮一下說在第一步第一個階段的時候因為我們使用者的資訊在過去的通保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14099.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14100.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我同意。但 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14123.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14150.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我們為了配合你們辦案的需要現在我們要把那個管制稍微放鬆放鬆是不是有必要一下子就鬆到直接警察就可以了是不是還是讓檢察官稍微控制一下那你說警察有緊急必要怎麼辦我們黨團條文上面也設計你有緊急必要你還是做嘛但是你事後你還是要報檢察官的許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14151.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14180.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那是不是在現在這個修正的第一步的時候我們原則上還是事先得到檢察官的許可那如果有緊急狀況那你們事後可以補跟檢察官申請許可我是建議啦這樣子的一個比較比較穩健的修法的態度能夠提供給主管機關審慎的考慮好那麼有沒有其他委員要做詢問那是不是請法務部來請陳柏洋委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14182.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14203.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
在這邊我覺得至少檢察官保留應該還是比較合適的一個做法這邊我有一個小問題就是說因為在這一個民眾黨黨團的這一個檢察官保留之後後面有一個如刃擊破情形然後呢之後可以再報情那我不知道現行的實務上就是說因為我之前是看數據其實檢察官許可的這個機率是算高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14203.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14217.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那是不是要不要後面這一款因為對我來講有時候就是他可能要了之後結果當然後面就說不行但他也已經拿到了這個部分呢是不是也可以順便說明一下好請法務部市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14219.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14243.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
跟各位委員報告啦那謝謝各位委員的關心那就法務部的立場那行政院版的條文他當然這部分我們認為是讓司法警察大家可以職權來調取啦那最主要理由當然他就是我們說了很多次他只是一個開戶的一個資料包括地址身份證個人的這個地址是非常單純的個人資料沒有其他的任何內容甚至也沒有軌跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14244.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14260.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
所以這一部分我們事實上辦案有很多的個人開戶資料我們銀行也有開戶資料我們很多的東西升登都有開戶資料這種東西在辦案實務上並沒有要求一定要甲官保留或法官保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14262.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14291.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
就是因為通訊保障就是這邊做的非常嚴格的規定所以這部分如果要採取以前的法方法當然不可採那採檢察官保障我們認為是說沒有必要他相對其他的開戶的資料其實都是辦案上的一個需求因為他事實上他的資訊量實在太低了實在太低而且是個人直接填載的資料所以這部分是不是請大院支持就是說院版的條文這部分讓司法警察他可以直接來調取 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14294.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14297.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
好那在這裡來那個專委員好那我再做整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14298.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14326.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我再來提個提醒我來請教司法院因為黃次長的意見表達得很清楚打擊犯罪的立場那我來請教司法院就是說11條之一你檢察官或者司法警察官你在偵查這個犯罪收集證據的時候你說認為有使用通訊使用的資本資料就當然要去打擊犯罪你當然會認為有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14328.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14342.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那我來請教德國的立法律是怎麼樣?德國的立法律法官保留對不對?聽到沒錯嗎?民眾黨現在認為是檢察官保留我現在請廳長回 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14354.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14355.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
民眾黨認為是檢察官保障我要來聽聽司法院的意見你們認為怎麼樣會比較符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14367.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14391.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我剛剛看了一下在德國的《刑事訴訟法》一百條G這個部分他講的是通訊記錄啦那應該不是使用者的資料那大概是有點差距啦那根據剛剛三之一那部分他把通訊記錄使用者資料這部分是有點區別的通訊記錄德國立法律是法官保留啊對對對通訊記錄是法官保留是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14392.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14401.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
瓜瓜說他由國家調取的紀錄已經存在的通聯紀錄也是相關法官保留的部分剛剛也趁這個機會回應剛剛莊委員的提醒關於救濟的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14408.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14430.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
剛剛也許我回答得比較快因為我剛才在思考說沒關係 我是跟你們提醒而已你們做出一個可以跟社會對話的我可以接受你說法務部的立場我也知道他們的立場嘛問題就是說你們比較屬於一般討論整個條文討論到最後為什麼大家會認為說是不是到最後應該保留給法院他認為你們比較有一個第三者比較公正的一個立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14431.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14448.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
如果以我司法院立場是現在目前在偵辦中的案件包括所謂的開戶資料金融開戶資料的調取護證資料的調取這個都警察機關都直接就去做調取的動作包括前科資料也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14449.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14468.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那也就是說這個是行之有年他對於各自的保護的部分包括的措施稍微比較低說實在的目前的狀況之下在警察機關在做初步偵查的時候就會調取相關的病歷資料包括他的金融金融的開戶資料都會直接去做調取那相關機構也會多配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14469.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14469.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
．一．一．一．一．一．一． |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14498.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14524.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
你可以去做理解的。好,總統委員,那麼是不是我這邊容我整理一下。那麼關於目前在討論的第11條之一有行政院提案、民眾黨團提案以及我們看原條文。那原條文的第一項包含四個部分。它的差異在於說第一個原條文是由檢察官發動。那行政院版跟民眾黨團的提案都是包含司法檢察官。 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14525.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14553.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
二、原條文當中是限定於追蹤本行三年以上在行政院跟民眾黨的提案當中就把這個拿掉了第三個原條文是將通訊記錄跟通訊使用者資料把它並列那麼在行政院版跟民眾黨團的提案當中他就有做一個區隔行政院版是說限定是指使用者資料使用者資料那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14554.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14582.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
民眾黨黨團提案也是以使用者資料為限那最後呢原條文是通訊記錄及通訊使用者資料都需要由法官保留要法院核發那到了行政院版的部分就不需要那民眾黨團版是認為是要有檢察官保留大概這幾個差異啦那剛剛的爭點主要是在於說援引德國的法律認為使用者資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14583.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14610.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
不在他們原來的法官保留範圍內所以行政院提案就比照將使用者資料呢排除在法官保留那至於是不是要加上檢察官保留的部分這個委員們有些不同的看法大概做這個整理是這一條大家覺得先保留沒有因為其實我覺得剛發言完一輪以後啦多數委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14612.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14635.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
其實聽得出來聽得出來那只不過說法務部這邊還是似乎說希望就直接放給警察那因為這個是一個蠻重大的政策決定我覺得是不是先沉澱一下先沉澱一下然後讓法務部也回去跟我們刑事警察局的同仁跟調查局的同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14636.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14648.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
稍為再協調一下是不是真的要那樣子一下就直接放給司法警察官所以我建議這條是不是就先留著讓法務部有一些時間跟空間再沉澱一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14650.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14654.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
那麼因為這涉及到齁,欸來那個審柏洋委員再來審判會員好審判會員 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14675.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14693.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
我只是要表達說我也贊成保留好OK這裡的保留是指條文保留所以我們第11條之一就保留接下來我們進行第14條有行政院提案和民眾黨團提案請問在場委員對於14條的部分是不是有一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14696.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14717.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
我想問一下那個十一條之一剛剛都是討論那個使用者資料但是後面的都沒有處理對都一樣我們只是針對第一項的規範到底使用的資料要不要有檢察官或者是就不用檢察官保留大概是這樣好那麼第四條的部分請委員表示意見各版本都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14721.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14740.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那如果沒有意見的話我們14條就按...欸是...黃總在有意見因為14條跟14條之一基本上就是一方面這次有網路流量紀錄另外一方面是配合電信管理法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14744.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14764.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
在條文14條上面的規範因為都是配合電信管理法的規範所以實際上面的內容沒有什麼不同但我只有一個問題是因為我們當初其實我們在送修法的時候台灣民眾黨黨團我們除了通保法以外其實我們有送電信管理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14765.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14793.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
我們為什麼同時送電信管理法因為你要藉由科語這些電信業者你要求他那個NetFlow Log的紀錄你要給我留下來那等於是說你必須要透過國家的法律在科語那個業者義務在規範的體力上面因為現在的電信管理法裡面他保存義務的其實沒有什麼其實沒有網路流入量紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14795.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14810.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
所以我們那個時候在修法的時候是配套的通保法也修電信管理法也修啊你們這一次齁這樣子修你們只修通保法啊我知道啦你們把你們想要的東西啊全部塞在通保法裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14811.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14829.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
全部塞在通保法裡那電信管理法裡面有隨之配合修那以後這樣看起來就會很怪喔就是你在電信管理法裡面那個電信業者他要留存東西的義務啊跟在通保法裡面他要留存東西的義務啊那個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14831.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14831.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
好來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14858.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14878.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
先自我介紹一下我NCC法律事務處處長我這邊簡單報告一下就是說在現行的定性管理法第9條那已經針對就是通訊者使用資料以及通訊記錄這部分的一個資料的一個留存 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14879.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14908.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那至於說網路流量記錄這一次在通訊法這邊特別法來做這個相關規定的一個新增那當然就是說這相關的資料的一個留存那在特別法這邊裡面去做增訂那這個是法律所賦予的義務那當然電信業者他必須有這樣子一個配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14909.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14936.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
議員議員議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14936.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14964.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
訂管法的部分因為那一部分是業者他本身自行建置留存那供這一個使用的用戶他來調取他只是作為贓物記錄的一個使用調取所以那一部分的這個經費他們必須要自行來做處理那這一部分特別法還有另外的建置費用所以這兩部分是把它區隔開來 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14967.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14992.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
請黃總召我跟ACC的官員交換一下意見科與業者這個義務然後國家在金錢上面要不要予以補償這是一回事你有的是他無償我就要你做第二個你做了國家因為施加你這些義務給你補償 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14995.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15000.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這個跟在電信管理法裡面要不要同步修我的看法是兩回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15001.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15026.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
要不然以後你法律適用法上會變成怎麼樣我唸給我唸給NCC的司長聽目前電信管理法第九條的規定第四項說電信事業及設置公共電信網路業者有依通訊保障及監察法協助執行通訊監察調取通訊記錄及通訊使用者資料之一物 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15028.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15058.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
一般正常的人看到電信管理法第九條你問說電信業者有什麼義務他有保存通訊記錄及通訊使用者資料的義務那你說啊不對你法律念得不夠通透你怎麼會只看電信法第九條呢你要回去看通保法那邊還有別的規定你等於是讓我們的法律體系很破碎啊你自己要把它拼湊在一起啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15059.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15070.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
您懂我的意思嗎?我如果要想要知道電信業者有什麼意義我當然是看電信管理法嘛我看電信管理法以後看到第9條然後我再看第40條40條的第7款寫什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15074.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15099.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
第七款現行法是依通訊保障及監察法規定具有提供通信記錄等資料之功能但那個通信記錄你在設成範圍上面沒有辦法涵蓋網路流量記錄啊所以你們其實之前我不需要老實講你們也知道啦電信管理法第九條跟四十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15101.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15129.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
是在這一次配套修法的時候跟通保法要一起修的我只是沒有辦法理解說你們這次行政院提出來的時候為什麼把電信管理法給浪槓掉那當然你可以說啦反正我就放在通保法啦電信管理法法條文字不一樣的部分我們依照後法優先於新法的原則那我們自己要可以知道要把通保法的規定跟電信管理法的規定把它拼在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15130.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15133.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
二、繼續併案《通訊保障及監察法部分條文》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15149.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15171.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
這個網路流量記錄的一個建制因為它大概不是一個補償的概念那個因為是政府要去進行的一個這個這個事務所以在這個通訊保障裡面就規定說這一部分是由機關來提出這個建制的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15172.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15199.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
當然相關法律委員所提到的確實有這樣子一個比較破碎或應該比較完整來做規範的一個問題因為我們電管法其實它在當時這個制定的時候從電信碼到電管法一個轉軌一個新法一個成立因為通保法它已經就存在了 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15199.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15225.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
所以委員所提示我們將來在電信管理法如果修正的時候那我們也願意把這個相關的一些把它也做了一些銜接過來好這樣子那個我先做個整理目前的增點是這樣子因為電信管理法第9條或第40條誠如黃昭偉所說它裡面只有寫通信記錄或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15227.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15250.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
實用者資料他有保存的義務但是我們現在在通訊裡面創設了一個流量記錄那流量記錄在通訊裡面有定義但是呢在電信管理法當中並沒有規定所以這個就產生一個兩個法之間對於新增事務的定義跟管理的問題好那這個部分是不是沈發慧委員要表示意見剛剛你不是有舉手沒有我看錯了好來來從黃總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15255.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15274.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我再強調一次這一部相關的法律基層的警察跟調查員還有檢察官已經等太久了真的等太久所以我不會因為這一次電信管理法你們沒有併案審查就去阻攔這部法律我不會做這樣的事情不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15274.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15296.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
不夠完美但可以用可以符合實際上面的需要那我只希望說可能可以請主管的部會特別是NCC我們用附帶決議的方式到時候是不是可以請NCC朝你一個附帶決議等到我們到院會處理這所謂的打詐事法的時候提一個附帶決議說 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15299.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15322.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
這個過了以後未來NCC針對電信管理法相關條文的調整應該要把它提出來做一併的修正那我覺得有這個附帶決議當作提醒大家也知道說未來電信管理法這次漏了沒有處理到沒有關係但我們下次還是要處理這樣NCC可以接受嗎好那麼請蔡組長趕快擬一個附帶決議那莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15326.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15345.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
對,黃委員提的很有意思啊。不好,不過完美,但是可以用。那當然啦,我們今天在這邊講的都是在做一個提醒啦。我最很怕的是什麼你知道嗎?我們現在都幫你通過了,你其他人說好啦,我們後面再來執法再來做,甚至於你們早上本來講的是說我們這是行政內部的一個監控。 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15347.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15357.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我剛才一直在想一個問題就是說像這個像這個整個網路的通訊流量像這些東西其實就類似軌跡嘛啊你這要放多久你們有沒有初步的想法有沒有初步的想法來請說我們這個其實真的都是核心問題啦我可以一輩子讓你在那裡說你想到了,心情好了司法、警察就可以把他調取 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15377.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15396.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
審法會三十年前經過哪裡有點開玩笑了嘛我意思是說你們要初步一個構想不能說後來我們的執法我們的通過到我的執法我再來想一下當然就是要讓你們去用審這個法律本來就是打仗那其實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15397.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15421.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
我都認為有點偷渡了啦 這個其實也不只是在打詐 也都OK打極犯罪我認為也都OK可是問題就是說 那小孩先算我請測啦 要先講我請測我是覺得 你說法律立法院定出來你本來要一個明確性那可是呢 通過了以後反而是我還沒有看到說你們初步的想法就是說 啊不然你想什麼 這東西要撈多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15424.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15424.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
二、繼續併案審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15442.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15459.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
新聞報告了吼那就已經通過的電信技術部分他現在留的大概留一年吼那未來的這個網路流量的部分其實我們在行政院審查早就已經評估過這涉及到你留的時間長久還你抽樣的比例還漏接的可能性這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15460.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15461.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
我們在14條之一徵定的14條之一的最後一項有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15487.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15506.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
我看到我看到所以我問的就是說你有一個選項要讓我們知道啊那都要想一下國家預算要開支的你連建制吳宗昇有建制以後就變成業者他變成他的法定義務囉跟委員報告包括建制費用的評估的部分我們也請各大業者也評估過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15507.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15532.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
也評估過了。因為那個涉及到我剛剛講的你要留多少留多少取多少留多少那個費用都不一樣那未來再本法好來請那個黃總召來但我覺得這件事重要剛剛次長我很欣賞你的坦率業者都評估過了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15533.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15555.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
不同的範圍不同的期間會有不同的費用那顯然業者有給你們法務部一個他們評估的估計嘛那個資料可不可以提供給司法及法制委員會全體委員一定有啦要不然你不會講這個話是不是這些資料應該提供給所有司法及法制委員會的委員業者一定有提供給你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15557.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15574.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
多少的範圍多少的長度大概費用是多少錢這個打擊犯罪絕對有必要啦老實講電信業者該給人家的給人家我們不會有意見啦但問題是你要讓大家知道我們現在在談的是多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15576.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15594.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
這個是不是可以請召委請法務部提供這個涉及到犯罪徵房未來我們需要取得犯罪徵房的成本的問題那也是立法院未來審議預算的所要說明的那次長這個部分剛剛就黃總召提到的部分因為這待會我們14條之一的第6項就在處理這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15595.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15609.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
要不然我們這樣子就是說相關的評估因為這涉及到業者的營業秘密我們把他們抽象化的代號的一個方式來抽象化的一個去識別化的方式去表達業者評估的成本我想至少是在我們進行黨團協商之前要提供吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15619.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15637.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
好不好那個黃總召我用黨團協商之前做個時間點來啦現在給他兩個禮拜好不好搞不好我們下禮拜就黨團協商了不是啦因為喔任何的資料你要負責任都要消化啊你如果怕預防這樣那這樣可以我具體建議壓三天 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15638.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15640.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
你們要清楚講啊,我們給你們合理的時間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15656.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15683.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15686.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15701.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
那是不是這個部分因為文字看來規範的對象範疇是相當接近啦那是不是我們因為剛剛要的是未來在黨團協商的時候所需要確認的 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15703.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15728.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
那請教各位委員對十四條之一他都在細則裡面要表達啦第六項的細則相關辦法由最後兩行由法務部會同內政部並會商國家通訊傳播委員會及相關機關定之那麼因為他這裡是一個授權但是我們需要知道委員所質疑的或想了解的有沒有被包含跟表達進去那委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15732.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15751.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
我是認為說我們這個委員會我們大家想要了解這個資料這是也是我們未來進一步進一步針對他們所訂定的相關的這些這些保存方式設置期限保存方式保存期間我們將要了解的一個審查的基礎但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15752.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15775.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
我想這個不管那個資料內容是如何應該在法條文字上面是不會有影響我們還是會授權無論如何我們還是會授權主管機關來訂定執法我們一定要授權主管機關訂定執法不然這個法怎麼執行所以我是認為說這法條文字的部分應該跟剛才所謂資料的索取是無色的好來那個委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15776.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15801.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
關於這個部分確實需要相關的這個施行細則執法來來處理那我早上質詢的時候也有就教於部長一般來講我們相關的法律修法立法過後的執法的時間是大概半年給你們一個時間的半年只是我早上有具體的要求說盡量要去縮短因為你這些東西的處置都很都是委員所關切還要單半年半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15804.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15804.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
二、繼續併案審查則不予審查則不予審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15827.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15854.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
他是說三個月他會努力這樣子好謝謝吼那是不是委員會這邊主席跟他商量一下因為還剩兩個條文我是不是說我們結束後再用餐啦吼因為我怕現在發便當吼影響到我們討論的秩序可以啦吼委員再忍耐一下好那是不是剛剛有提議說十四條徵定十條之一依行政院提案通過好可以接下來請看第29條有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15855.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15874.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
請大家翻開會議資料28頁跟28頁那28頁我看行政院提案跟民眾黨黨提案內容文字是一樣的那是不是我們可以按行政院提案的通過可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15876.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15892.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
可以嗎?可以啊可以齁都一樣好那我們就按行政院提案通過那接下來第31條也是有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案那內容上是有些許的區別齁請問委員有沒有要表示意見啊來黃總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15898.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15914.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
我只是要請教一下因為之前針對於電信業者他們的協力義務因為在行政法上面的協力義務如果違反這個協力義務的話是處50萬以上250萬以下的罰環 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15922.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15942.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
這是第一個我們在整個行政法上面違反這個協議義務除了法官以外經通知限期遵行而不遵行按日連續處罰那最後還有個法律效果可以把他的退許或許可給撤銷掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15943.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15966.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那我們現在改回來了以後這個協力義務的執行你們到目前為止看起來就是出發犯那暗刺出發那最後那個最強烈的效果把他拔掉了理由是什麼因為等於是說啊那個電信業者在你給皮皮啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15967.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15993.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
我老實講啦電信業者罰個新台幣五十萬以上兩百五十萬以下你跟他每年的銀額比起來那很難三的啦我這樣說應該沒有錯啦看起來金額好像很嚇人跟每年的銀額比起來那個真的是很難三的啦那你們怎麼會最後自己決定要把最有最有牙齒的那個東西給拿掉好蔡組長請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15995.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16014.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
是,這個跟委員報告從電信法轉軌到電信管理法先前是採許可特許制可是在電管法現在已經改成登記制登記制有提供這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16017.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16018.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
二）行政院函請審 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16035.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16061.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
他的登記是因為他提供了這些電信服務而這些電信服務是為了考量相關的一些民眾他電信上的一個需求所提供這個服務所以這一部分他必須是應該在這個登記的一個範圍那什麼時候會廢止他的這個登記在我們電信管理法第7條除了他終止營業 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16062.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16062.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
．二）行政院函請審 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16079.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16079.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
．一．一．一．一．一．一． |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16098.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16101.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
謝謝蔡組長說明大家可以參考今天法務部的報告第六頁第五點來那個是吳奧偉再來是黃總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16129.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16155.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
我覺得法律的設置還是要有它的效果啦那你對於這些不配合的我不想說在重演之前曾經有去搜索過那時候叫台灣大哥大嘛還是哪一間我有點忘了曾經去搜索過他們的機房啦那你這個50萬到250萬的這個這根本就是對中小企業在處罰的金額啊你今天去罰那三大電信業者嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16156.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16156.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
黃總裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16174.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16197.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
我這樣說明好了啦就是說依照電信管理法的規定申請電信事業登記應檢據申請書向主管機關辦理嘛我知道你剛剛想要把它鋪陳的方式是說你有提供電信服務你就要登記但我覺得你話不能這樣子講第一個事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16198.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16224.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
台灣是一個法治國家我們什麼時候變成了說啊你只要有提供電信服務你一定要來登記意思是什麼意思是我們政府一定要接受你的登記登記完了以後我們拿你沒皮條怎麼可能是這樣子嗎你如果在登記的過程當中如果有出現違法的事情你剛還講的是廢紙廢紙是事後發生的事由 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16225.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16242.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
移民計劃書的變更他歇業所以才用廢紙的概念所以才用廢紙的概念嘛那有一個最簡單的事情是說那他如果在取得申請登記的過程當中那本身就違法的話你要怎麼處理所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16246.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16265.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
對於這些大的電信業者法條的文字上面我覺得可以修正可以修正可以再論可以再論可以修正但對於這一些違反這一些在法律上配合義務的業者誠如剛剛吳昭偉所講的你罰個50萬到250萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16274.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16304.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
有什麼實際上面的效果啊我們本來的法條喔還不是這一次修正的時候新增加上去的喔本來的法條就有賦予你們這樣子的權利的那你只是配合電信管理法的修正文字列做調整就好啊怎麼會搞到現在我們現在在整個通訊偵查上面我覺得整個大的方向上面好像是不好意思我這樣講喔不要介意啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16305.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16330.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
是要讓電信業者他們比較開心嗎?要做這個事情的時候我們還要編預算給他錢啊不配合的時候罰個50萬到250萬把終極的武器自廢武功這次修法的時候我們主管機關面對電信業者自廢武功這樣真的對嗎?這樣真的好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16335.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16361.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
好謝謝黃總這樣好不好因為呢這四色道電信管理法的修改齁他從原來的特許或許可改為登記在電信管理法新的第五條第六條有明定那這條我想大家有疑議我們是不是就保留啦好不好就把它保留齁那麼第三條保留那現在呢這邊做幾個處理齁要證得大家的意見齁這邊首先第四條之一我們剛剛有通過但是有一個附帶決議是不是我請大家看一下可以的話我們就來處理齁那請簽名後發給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16364.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16383.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
那再過來呢跟那個黃總召說明一下因為剛剛第五條的部分齁因為這裡有一個修正動議是第五條跟第六條一併修正但是剛剛我們在審查第五條的時候已經通過了那第六條呢是因為因有這個修正的我們先暫時保留但是呢我看這個修正動議內容第五條、第六條是連動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16384.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16402.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
你要是第六條修第五條就要修是不是我這樣建議說我們可以第五條第六條第六條比照第五條就按行政院提案通過但是我們在黨團協商的時候這個修正動議還是因為你沒有啦我這樣講好了吼我們現在委員會還沒有結束嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16403.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16427.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那現在委員會還沒有結束我很清楚的講法務部都已經講得那麼清楚了你第五條第六條不能夠按照現在行政院的版本貼因為他沒有把打詐專法的四三四四放進去嘛啊你這樣子修會很好笑啦所以我認為兩個方法一個你第五條第六條都保留這我可以接受啊第二個要不然你就第五條第六條依照我們剛剛提的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16428.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16452.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
因為我剛說講的那兩個法條要放進去法務部也同意了嘛那我們第五條跟第六條也保留啦那那個修正動議請法務部待會去評估若可以的話我們在黨團協商就第五條第六條再按照修正動議通過因為這是至於我們議事的效率考量啦還有議事的規則因為第五條已經剛剛有宣布了嘛那我再回過頭來把第六條保留第五條也保留可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16453.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16480.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
好那麼第五條、第六條跟第十一條之一和第三十一條保留那通過的是第三條之一的文字後修正以及第五條、第六條、第七條那現在呢附帶決議請大家看有沒有看到第十一條之一第十一條之一我們既然保留有附帶決議怎麼處理剛剛十一條之一有保留嗎?有保留啊現在是附帶決議是針對十一條之一嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16484.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16513.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
欸不對這剛發下去的是什麼啊對不起說錯了是14條之一更正那現在我們就請大家看14條之一剛審查通過的條文要不要加一個附帶決議請發下去給大家參考那我這樣直接念一遍啦吼有鑒於調取網路流量紀錄對於人民隱私權及資訊自主權有所干預除事前才法官保留外並因有事後監督及控管機制以落實人民基本權之保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16514.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16543.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
原請法務部與司法院針對調取流量記錄相關通知救濟及加強監督等程序與修正草案第14條之一第6項之授權執法內通盤考量。請問法務部你們看到了齁?請問各位委員對於這樣的附帶決議我們是不是就...要補簽可以啦齁?通過嘛齁?好,同意那我們附帶決議按照剛剛宣讀的內容通過。那我們就開始。 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16545.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16549.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
現在就不用了,那前面那兩不用了。好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16550.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16578.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
那本案逐條均已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢拟據審查報告提請院會公決本案須交由黨團協商院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明附帶決議一項一併提報院會處理條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16581.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16586.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
議程討論事項已處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |