| IVOD_ID |
15989 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15989 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-26-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-06T08:31:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-06T12:37:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:06:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854f41088fe7fdcd9e7aa87ef5e5fc7f973be8d109af184be4ec1c4ff57a177e545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【6月5日及6日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:00 - 12:37:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1708.953 |
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1721.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好,現在繼續開會本日會議議程為邀請環境部部長就廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升．廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃進行專題報告．並備質詢現在介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭芝委員盧憲一委員王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1733.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1762.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
林岳勤委員今天列席的官員有環境部彭啟明部長資源循環署賴盈穎署長環境管理署嚴旭明署長氣候變遷署蔡玲怡署長化學物質管理署謝彥儒署長國家環境研究院劉忠勇院長環境保護司蔡孟玉司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1764.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1772.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
大氣環境司張順清司長規劃綜合規劃司吳佩瑜司長水質保護司王月斌司長監測資訊司劉炳輝司長經濟部謝炳輝抱歉謝炳輝司長經濟部產業發展署連錦章署長產業園區管理局劉國龍專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1792.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1798.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
接下來請環境部彭部長報告時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1823.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1842.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
主席各位委員大家早安那我來報告關於廢棄物的暫存量逐年攀升我們的未來的中長期的計畫那請切到這個投影片事實上大家都知道我們這幾年因為生活形態的改變請切到投影片投影片上我們這幾年這個生活形態的改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1843.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1858.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
讓我們的這個臺灣的這個整個的廢棄物的排放量的確在增加當中那我先用這張這個物質流給大家來做分析來看那目前的其實我們一年臺灣大概使用到3億噸的物質流7成是進口大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1859.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1859.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
一般廢棄物的產生量 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1883.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1907.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
各位可以看到這個圖其實可以看得到其實從過去107年開始到112年可以說是逐年攀升但是這個裡面有幾個但書第一個是我們在算法上環境部為了更周延所以把這個員工一般企業的員工的廢棄物變成一般廢棄物納進來這是第一點那第二個呢112年我們納入非例行性的排出的垃圾包含了這個燃燒的紙錢我們推行這個不燃燒紙錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1911.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1932.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
還蠻成功的還有大型的活動最多64%還有工程美化天然災害等等把它納進來所以112年這個顯著的攀升但是這裡面也有一個習慣各位知道我們過去這三年疫情所以國人的生活型態很大的改變這種所謂的網購也讓我們廢棄物增加的非常的多這個是我們要關注的一個點那如果按照這樣的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1933.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1933.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
拜訪議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1954.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1964.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
通過這個資源回收的方式來進行但是在不夠的地方大概從下面那個數字那條線84% 84萬噸其實這個就進入到我們的100多個掩埋場不是垃圾山是暫存的掩埋場來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1972.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1994.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個部分因為我們目前我們的焚化爐正在整改當中所以它的量不大夠所以我們會持續的來進行那另外一個就是事業廢棄物它其實因為我們這幾年臺商回流還有經濟情勢轉好其實也在增加當中但是這個算法也有一點不一樣包含每年每年的這個企業的增長那目前我們對於廢棄物的產到人量 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1995.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2022.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
現在正在進行這24個場要申請整改當中那也會有一些新的場正在進行所以我們未來呢現在我們的廢棄物的燃燒量是681萬噸一年那未來呢到116年會到700萬噸所以剛剛那個垃圾量會逐年的逐年的應該就會顯著的一個地點等到我們在116年這逐年的會整改完成好那各位委員最關心的SRF也跟大院報告我上任之後這幾個幾 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2024.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2040.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這一個月其實都有很認真的去關注這個議題我也去看了SFR場其實有蠻多的一個問題我坦誠有蠻多的問題會出現所以我們現在要從源頭包含這個分裝甚至到最後如何去使用甚至空汙的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2041.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2062.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們會成立一個體檢小組會體檢小組全面的體檢甚至我們也必須很負責的跟業者組成一個聯盟來幫助他們可以正常的發展因為從減碳的觀點來看的話SRF我認為不應該汙名化我們要把它很好的發展來進行所以另外一個問題的挑戰我們大概要翻轉思維減少碳排提升韌性妥善的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2062.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2083.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
其他政策的部分我就很快的跟大家報告大概我們會用資源零廢棄的角度來看我們行政院也通過了過去這幾年的計畫我們施政組還用三大循環例如說綠色設計能資源循環還有廢棄物管理的方式來進行我們工作上當然要永續的產品包含綠色設計循環採購、源頭減量、資訊揭露還有延長使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2086.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2103.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我舉例像這個回收的分類分流現在已經做得非常好了還有可以再增強的地方那另外一個四大物料的循環也是一樣那我們會有一個資源的循環雲這個資源的循環雲就把各種的資料可以更順利的在一起以前這個算法可能比較粗糙現在會在一個大平台上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2103.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2124.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以這個以生物質為例我們就可以知道很動態的知道說我們一年的垃圾量或流逃到那裡去了還有一個就考量到廢棄物量的平衡跟管理這個就是需要我們整體的來做一些營運那這個部分還有一些新興的很難例如說實面的問題實面的問題也是必須我們去處理的我們每年大概有投入4億多來處理實面的一個問題那最後我給大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2127.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2146.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
就是我未來的中長期的一個目標再給我20秒的時間未來中長期的目標大概短期的大概3個月內我們會提出一個SRF的產業的體檢然後我們希望在短期就有一個跟產業一起來發展來把這個制度化中長期希望年底之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2146.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2161.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
到明年可以年底之前我們希望有一個資源循環促進法的草案年底可以公告然後長期來看的話當然要把資源循環零廢棄甚至呢我們用資源循環促進法的這個法律的精神能夠達成這個資源能夠更有效的運用以上報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2166.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2190.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好謝謝彭部長的報告那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始巡打好做一下宣告本會委員巡打時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案10點30分截止收案 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2194.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2219.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
現在請登記第一位委員盧憲一委員發言主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早安早安我想先問一個問題就是我們目前國內合法的BOT的水利電廠有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2222.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2247.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我所知道的有一個民間的水利電廠還有幾個我比較熟悉的是那個那我在這個上個月的5月20號去了花蓮濁西因為那邊的鄉親跟我說他們的環評的問題還有一些部落同意的問題所以我去看了一下所以當時的現場是這樣的一個環境這是他們的那個太平村旁邊那個河流第二張 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2249.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2254.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那我想知道說因為他認為他的主要的正義點是這樣他在1999年 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2256.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2283.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
完成了環境評估然後到現在已經2024年了那麼多年了都還沒有動工那他後來在根據16支一條的那個三年入內沒有開工的話他必須做環差那也就是說他2007年有補助那到現在2007年到現在2024年也過了十幾年的時間所以我希望我想說你對這個部分有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2285.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2312.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
報告委員這部分其實依照目前我們的環境影響評估法他是還是可以繼續進行但是我們有考量到這個相關很多包含了環團的一個建議應該有再次或提出這個環差分析的這個機制所以我們會把這個情況研議在適當時機來修法來修這件事情我們知道1999年到現在經歷了至少有一次的莫拉克最近的一個大地震花蓮市地震帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2313.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2339.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那如果說是每三年就三年內完成環差然後就終生適用一次使用永遠適用那認為說這樣會不會不合理啊這個地方是不是有需要修改的地方你認為呢對這個的確是如果以這個環團的這個建議我個人非常贊同但是目前環境影響評估法的確是適用的所以我們的確我在下半年會有一個環境影響評估的總體檢我們會把這個納入考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2341.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2363.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
資商同意的部分因為他本身是一個濁西鄉的一個資商同意結果不是這個鄰近村莊或者是有關係的村莊他也做了資商同意我覺得有必要做到全鄉的資商同意嗎基本上還是要這個可以請我們要看原鄉可不可以請我們這個市長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2365.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2388.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好謝謝委員那這個部分還是要看那個原住民基本法裡面的規範那我意思是因為它本身是狹長型的一個鄉可能從前面到後面的20幾將近30公里可是真正影響的是那兩個村莊應該是只做這兩個村莊而不是做全鄉的不是嗎如果說有相對或者說以後有這樣的類似的狀況是以地緣性來看可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2390.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2409.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個部分我們來跟原住民委員會來做一個恰商看看就是說有關於諮商的那個範圍這個部分能不能做一些的一個調整所以我想知道說這個三年的這個16之一條的這個條款然後他是利用這個環差來通過嗎以後他還是可以繼續動工嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2410.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2429.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
按照目前的法令的確是但是我覺得委員提到的意見非常好那我們因為其實這個不是只有您也環團也跟我們提出這樣的看法所以我們年底呢會有一個我知道他沒有上法院也敗訴了對對對只是我還是要提出跟你們提出地方的一個意見第二個就是關於我們原住民前幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2430.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2431.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
推動原住民森林探會 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2447.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2471.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那我們是2050年進領嘛在下一頁那我們在氣候編簽因應法的第5條裡面有提到原住民族的權益在第8款會推動自然碳會政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會的相關權益原住民族共享那我在 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2472.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2479.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
在一公頃6萬塊這個在說廣泛討論的時候提到一個數據就是2001年我們Dr. |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2479.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2497.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
Pierce在英國倫敦的學院他當時是所謂的環境經濟學家他說原始領的一個他那時候的價值是這樣大概在2000美金一公頃也就是6萬塊台幣這是2001年所以我是用這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2498.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2499.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
數據來提每公頃6萬塊的數據我們看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2504.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2531.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那未來這個探權因為我們現在才剛剛起步去年的8月7日才揭牌那這個探權交易所裡面我們沒有所謂的原住民的人員在裡面當所謂的一個諮詢委員希望無論是借期或者說希望借期在開會的時候能不能納入我們原住民的代表在裡面因為我們原住民目前有27萬大概27萬公頃的原住民保留地現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2533.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2546.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
申請到淨化補償大概7.2萬公頃所以這個部分在探選的一個比例上面你的看法是怎麼樣好,報告委員這個問題我其實在我們內閣會議的時候我有跟原住民委員會的主委提到這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2547.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2568.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
因為現在這個國有地其實要算是探權的部分真的有點困難所以這個要有一些解釋還有突破那我有跟他說因為在全球氣候會議裡面原住民都扮演一個很重要的角色所以我也特別跟他有提到說我們是不是共同來跨部會來商量這個問題那另外這個森林的探會涉及到農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2569.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2596.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
的認定跟我們環境部的許可所以這個部分我們的確會跨部會包含了原住民委員會還有這個農業部還有環境部三個部會會來一起來處理那你覺得未來我們主委員有機會從中分享他的利益嗎我認為長期來看這個是的確要考量到原住民因為原住民是公平正義但是以現有的法規在國有地要取得探權的部分的確是非常困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2597.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2607.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
目前的可信性不高目前不高而且我們必須要從探權的經驗但是如果說可以從保護這個國有的森林地的角度來看的話或許可以找到一些機會這個我絕對會來想辦法來解決這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2612.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2627.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我研究了一下因為這個非常難懂準備期注冊申請階段到額度申請階段這個就一般人來看你認為我們在原住民鄉這個取得的機制是成本過高還是怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2628.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2654.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
通常這個現實上現在來看的話大概100公頃的地才有他所謂的探全的經濟的價值100公頃而且這個土地呢要過去是被破壞的我們把它富裕起來所以這的確是有一定的難度所以但是呢這個我覺得目前最麻煩的就是認定上的問題所以這個方法學要我們農業部跟這個環境部一起來制定這個方法學 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2654.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2657.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我想請教部長說什麼時候可以開始交易呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2658.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2684.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
目前在以現在的這個制度上農業森林碳會的過的案件我們環境部在氣候署裡面還不多所以我們現在我是有跟那個農業部長來討論這個問題希望我們可以加快彼此的審查的一個速度所以目前還沒有開始交易森林碳會我們臺灣自己本地的森林碳會目前還沒有近期最快是什麼時候可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2685.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2685.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝盧憲宜委員的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2713.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2715.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
接下來請陳昭智委員發言。好,有請部長。請彭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2728.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2752.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
陳委員早部長早部長我在這個廢棄物管理部分是我非常關心的一個議題之一那部長上週的業務報告也有提到這個失業廢棄物的管理計畫那近年4月我在質詢前部長的時候那環管署署長曾經表示末端垃圾的這個處理經費預算是相對高了很多大概都是幾倍那這是因為將部分的經費花在這個焚化爐的這個整改 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2755.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2779.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
還有這個掩埋場的加強措施言下之意今年的垃圾處理量恐怕量能恐怕會出現更多的堆積所以我想請問部長到目前為止這些末端經費使用的加強措施究竟為了掩埋場帶來了什麼的效益那為什麼新竹蜂箱這個蜂箱5年內燒了快70次那還是沒看到掩埋場的這個效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2781.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2808.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
報告委員 這個第一個現在我們的民眾的處理垃圾的方式有時候也會把打火機各種易燃物品在垃圾裡面其實也會造成這個垃圾更容易易燃那第二個是過去對於這個掩埋場的管理跟處置我們其實環境部特別針對這個部分有加強的監控還有包含了早氣等等的這個處理所以現在的其實未來在這個半年一年中其實應該會降低大幅度的這個火災的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2809.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2812.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
廢棄物清除在清除處理機構許可管理辦法當中徵涉一項,也賣場應該設有紅外線熱像系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2830.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2833.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們透過這個採購紅外線偵測儀來監控當超過溫度的時候他會灑水降溫那來降低整個掩埋場這個發生大火的一個風險有想過嗎好對謝謝委員關係其實我們今年已經有在補助了有在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2846.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2864.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
已經開始進行這件事情?對,你要不要來報告一下因為發生火災的次數實在太多了是的,感謝委員關心新豐野霾場他新豐野霾場主要的燃燒地點是在他堆置那個雜木的地方幾乎都在燒那個地方所以我們一直 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2865.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2882.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
跟這個信族縣來商討這個地方是不是要做好掩埋跟早去蒐集另外委員關心的這個紅外線這個部分我們也一律補助還有消防水泡至少先從高風險或是經常在燒火的地方來先開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2882.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2883.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
是是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2898.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2925.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
中科資源再生中心跟簽約設施新設這兩項管理部門來看其實對2024年整體的這個失業廢棄管理的成效是有限所以我也非常擔憂就是說臺灣的這個垃圾掩埋場已經趨於飽和了那整個這個焚化爐借期老實說借零超零的都有嘛就是我們預計使用的一些整改的情形下想請問部長今年的垃圾堆積量是不是還是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2925.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2951.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好可能壓下來好報告委員其實現在是84萬噸那再分散在107個這個暫置的掩埋場裡面那那個以後都會拿去燈化爐燒的那目前還有350萬噸的空間分散在107 裡面暫置場也有暫置場問題請部長看左邊這張圖下一張這個民團實力走訪他把台灣本島垃圾暫置場大致點出來了你可以看到這雲嘉南南投台東 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2952.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2973.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
每個縣市平均超過10個戰車場那這些戰車場大部分是在掩埋場跟清潔處的附近那這些密集的縣市周圍事實上缺乏完整的垃圾管理措施或是調度出的問題所以導致垃圾一直堆製完全沒有辦法消耗掉那薛前部長說過公有民營的焚化爐的處理事業廢棄物那個單價比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2980.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2993.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
所以我認為垃圾堆積的原因還是有事業廢棄物會排擠家戶垃圾處理的可能性所以第一個我想問部長這些佔據場越來越多不就是這個原因嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2994.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3021.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
對其實這個事業廢棄物是佔了大概180萬噸不是最主要的還是屬於這個我們這個焚化爐它過去整改的量不夠但是目前來看的話比去年好現在已經681萬噸了增加了30萬噸未來會到700萬噸所以這個的消化會逐步的消化我們的這個暫存的量那剛剛委員提到的說垃圾的這個掩埋場的管理像這個部分我們會加強來處理那我們也編例了相關的大概有兩億多的經費來處理這個這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3023.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3046.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那部長你對於這個戰車廠垃圾有處理的規劃嗎?戰車廠的部分還是就任由他放著?報告委員其實我早上還在跟我們署長在討論我們到底什麼時候可以把戰車廠能夠降到去化掉那這個還要幾年的時間因為這個戰車廠分散到各個縣市那各個縣市其實也是必須學習說有些縣市不願意幫別的縣市燒 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3047.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3075.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那這個暫時的時程可能是不是請我也有機會瞭解一下如果你沒有定出來我們正在討論當中但是這個時間點可能還要再延商一下下那部長長期看起來你盧列的管理方針能夠有效管理的事業廢棄物當然是好的可以肯定那將來好像也會設跨部門的跨部門的合作來興建相關措施可是我們還有兩年的這個過渡期間第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3075.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3104.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
本席認為是不是應該將更多的資源投注在源頭的管理來緩減堆積的速度?部長您同意這樣看法嗎?同意 因為貴部聽說也已經補助了各縣市有長達推動半年以上42個減速市場那另外再請教貴部去年減速計畫的數據化的效益如何呢?就是減速化的成果如何呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3105.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3117.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
請我們署長來報告,謝謝我們是就4個主要的項目,包括過用塑膠袋、吸管、飲料杯那像過用塑膠袋我們大概實施之後大概是減量了大概一半,就是一年有減少110個 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3119.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3125.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
可是部長你來看我下面這張圖左邊這張圖是我之前質詢用的曾經提到左邊這張圖塑膠袋這個是來自經濟部的資料塑膠袋在10年成長14.4%塑膠參與成長了68.7%但是今天的報告中我想請教部長那這個你右邊這張圖就是剛剛這個市長來報告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3143.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3149.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那這個差很大欸怎麼辦這個包括這個購物用的垃圾他減了50%那那個免洗餐具減了46%飲料杯減了17%還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3156.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3161.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
因為這兩個資訊都不攏嘛你看一下那個我這個那個投影片上都不攏欸怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3175.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3200.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
跟委員報告就是經濟部這個呢他是包括我們整個產業還有生活面所以說像我們工廠使用這些袋模類都包括在內那右邊這個是我們就生活面裡面大家民眾消費量最多最可以減少的幾個主要項目來做統計購物袋也不夠啊你說處理垃圾錢就你只選擇購物用的垃圾袋好像這個分母也不太正確 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3203.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3218.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這個的確齁,例如說像我們也跟委員報告我發現就是說我們只要推動這個要減塑這個媒體就會說要多生收然後就引發很大的反彈所以我們現在想要用別的方式來推動更好的這種減塑的文化啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3219.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3220.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
謝謝陳昭芝委員的發言接下來請林月晴委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3250.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3251.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
謝謝主席 邀請我們的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3255.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3281.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
議員早部長早我又看過你針對於我們的廢棄物的報告寫的非常詳細方法也很多可是我4月的時候質詢的時候我就有提到說如果沒有面對問題的核心的話再多的方法也是沒有用所以應該要去訂定目標甚至要解決的問題是什麼甚至到底這個廢棄物你要減量多少所以今天就一一來跟部長這邊探討一些相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3282.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3300.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
因為廢棄物核心問題到底我們環境部掌握到了嗎?為什麼?我想部長我相信你跟我都非常同意要處理很多政策除了法制以外事實上要訂出目標手段更為重要那上個會期事實上已經通過了我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3301.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3317.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
期後變遷因應法也明確定出檢探目標與方法入境環境部後來也陸續公布執法本席希望環境部是不是也針對廢棄物要有一定積極的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3319.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3347.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以廢棄物的處理希望你能夠做到事實上是源頭管理另外地方政府跟居民比較頭痛的垃圾戰爭這個問題的話也希望能夠要做好社會溝通那我們就來看就是說在我上次質詢完沒多久我們的那個環境資訊中心就報導說我們8年來國人的垃圾是越減越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3348.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3369.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以部長是不是可以有幾點跟我們說明一下第一個國人人口進來是越來越少那怎麼會熱色越來越好問題到底出在哪裡這是想說請部長可不可以做一個說明報告委員兩個部分一個是算法的問題就是說我們有統計的現在我們的整一次環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3369.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3369.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
部長已經掌握到問題的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3393.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3411.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
未來就是看你的那個解方因為現在疫情已經是解封的狀態那第二個垃圾減量政策過去重點都花在末端處理那我們的政策方向是否有錯誤為什麼因為垃圾越減越多啊那你現在一直在花錢在處理末端那這個政策是不是有錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3412.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3437.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
其實現在的資源循環的比例也顯著的增多啦齁那所以剛剛講過一邊增長一邊下降那我們未來呢會如果這個資源循環促進法我們希望在年底能夠提出來之後應該可以有效整合各個部分因為其實也報告委員說我們所有的資源齁所有的資源其實掌握在我們的各個政府在管理的項目裡面所以我們環境部很積極的希望能夠推出這個資源循環促進法 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3437.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3460.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
希望在年底能夠草案能夠先預告出來所以如果這個法案通過的話更有效去把各種的資源合在一起這更能夠有效的來管理好那希望這個法趕快在年底的時候可以送出那部長再問你就是說因為院長也提到老問題要找新方法新問題要找好方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3460.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3484.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以你有沒有想到未來整個垃圾處理量的這個有沒有好的方法?好,報告委員我有去看了一些SRF或是一些垃圾廠的確環境條件沒有那麼好所以我有特別跟我們的同仁討論到一個議題就是說我們過去環保署是比較管制的角度我們現在是環境部了所以我們應該把這個所謂的業界在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3484.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3514.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我們過去想到業界可能是我們的工業局或是經濟部的事情但是我們現在是部了所以我們如何把我們相關的資源循環的相關的產業能夠聚集在一起幫助他們也解決我們的問題所以我目前希望說有不一樣的讓他們籌組一個聯盟的方式把一些產官學員能夠在一個平台裡面來討論這個事情更明確之後我希望有一個半年的時間然後我們到大院說把這個草案送到這個看能不能在年底的時候能夠預告出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3514.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3533.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個會更周圍一點這樣子表示也有在做社會溝通要社會溝通所以部長就要來我要為地方的百姓發聲我們的熱色我們的戰事場問題已經困擾百姓非常久了雖然我是不分區的立委可是我有任養 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3534.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3552.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3553.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3582.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
越過了護欄然後呢就有隨時有倒塌的危險那就可能會產生居民甚至用路人的安危那第二個就是那個戰事產生這樣子的惡臭的問題有沒有想辦法想辦法去解決因為有時候甚至會對於造成臨近的集水區學校居民他們對於這樣的一個困擾都很常時候要跟市府去做溝通才有下一個動作那第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3583.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3600.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
市長剛剛陳道志委員也提到嘛就是火災這個這件事情在桃園的我們的眼海上也常常發生火災已經是見怪不怪了可是造成空氣汙染我比較擔心的是耳哨因為距離學校蠻近的那這大家都變孩子都要上課戴口罩 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3601.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3622.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那所以去年桃園大塊西掩埋場為例的話火災影響到周邊數十間學校所以我不知道有沒有機會到時候是不是也歡迎彭部長跟我一起到我的壬陽的選區去走走但我不是要去看棒球也不是要去看籃球我希望的是能夠來看到到底掩埋場 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3622.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3641.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3641.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3645.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
對孩子的健康是有疑慮的所以問部長說你有沒有針對這個有統籌的管理辦法嗎未來退場機制是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3666.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3686.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
目前就是等到我們這個焚化爐整改上來之後還有新的上來之後這個就會陸續的去化當中那委員提到的問題我們現在正在有幾個特別的案例我們正在處理例如說他離水源地我們會特別的妥善來處理但你看到那個火災燒的惡臭的其實已經都在改善當中了 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3687.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3716.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好我們希望也要持續因為要必將解決因為畢竟跟學校這麼有接近的話事實上對孩子的健康我是非常關心的那可是垃圾問題不是民不自身問題有可能是政治問題因為目前就在開打那個垃圾大戰垃圾擱置呢焚燒還有運送都有可能是各縣市之間的利益交換可是人民常常是不知情不知不覺用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3716.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3719.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
目前全台這些跨縣市的垃圾問題環境部的角色是什麼因為中央畢竟你還是要給地方一些政策方向然後讓他們可以去做所以有沒有做能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3739.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3740.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
綜合調度 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3756.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3769.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
是不是也可以給我們更完整的那個書面資料再來就是要跟部長去討論預算問題也就是從環談的研究來看環境部在廢棄物末端處理要花將近17.7億 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3771.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3794.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
就反而是對比源頭管理我們都一直在講源頭管理很重要只有只花0.9億那兩者相差了22倍那可是連環境部都自己報告都強調要做好源頭管理的話那這顯然說的跟做的好像有點落差所以部長你剛上任馬上就要遇到那個編列預算了那請問目前編列預算怎麼調整明年的源頭管理重點做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3795.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3812.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
請我們署長來報告這個源頭管理是是是那各位報告那我們現在源頭管理呢我們會有在這個綠色設計循環採購都有一些工作的推動那特別是說我們還要去做一些資源回收讓這個我們的產業就是可以建立那個商業模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3812.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3837.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那這邊都有一些相關的人員還有經費來投入其實報告委員我們那個前兩天有一個新聞稿就是我們請他們算出來我們的資源循環的相關的產業1400億所以我們會用公司協力的方式來推動這些事情那當然啦過去的這個源頭的費用是都是宣導做這個事情不夠啦那我會逐步的來調整這件事情好那在環部部長這邊真的要多 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3838.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3838.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3866.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3883.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
謝謝林月琴委員的發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席各位委員各位官員早安我也想請部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3886.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3906.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
謝謝部長剛剛有提到小朋友對於空污這樣子事關重大的影響那身為不孕症醫師那同時我也是不孕症病人其實今年最新的期刊有顯示說空污也嚴重的影響不孕症以及各種癌症這個再提供給您 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3908.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3928.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
昨天6月5日是世界環境日,我也想請問一下部長,環境部有什麼重要的宣誓嗎?我們要減少淹地,全國減淹地的大聯盟成立。關於這樣子,你們會不會覺得很適合跟衛福部一起做配合?有昨天衛福部的賈淑莉副署長有來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3930.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3957.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
對但是我們希望更多啦昨天我們是跟文化部合作那未來應該會跟衛福部合作好所以昨天是世界環境日那前天呢6月4號的時候環境部發了一則臉書表示會持續協助地方政府妥善的處理垃圾問題可是我覺得很疑惑因為你的標題是寫焚化為主掩埋為輔作為這樣子的slogan |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3958.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3967.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
剛剛已經有多位委員反映空污的問題了所以為什麼我們還要再把焚化為主的這件事情特別來做強調呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3968.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3994.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個其實是針對我們資源回收完的沒有辦法變成回收的這個所謂的垃圾去做焚化的處理所以大概就是一年大概是600多萬噸但源頭的話剛也提到了其實我們減少垃圾會遠比後面的處理還要重要對吧所以我們回收的比例其實本來就很高這只是真的沒有辦法回收之後只好當成焚化來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3995.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4015.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
但我覺得這個slogan如果可以給一點建議的話當然還是可以再從源頭管理才是最主要的接下來我們才是做分化為主掩埋為輔嘛那我們提到當然今天我們也討論廢棄物可是我們從100年到最新的112年全國一般的廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4019.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4045.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
總生產量是每年都在創新高所以平均每人每日的一般廢棄物產生量從0.8到現在的1.359到底剛剛有講到說我們的這個源頭管理你想要跟很多協力廠商做配合等等的所以從100年到112年這樣子的源頭管理我們的成效到底如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4046.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4069.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
問題是出在哪裡因為反而是年年都在增加報告委員其實這裡面你可以看得出來資源的垃圾量就回收完了之後也都增加很多然後一般垃圾量呢也在增加其實最主要是一般垃圾量其實就是說我們國人習慣的改變當然我不能推給這個國人什麼習慣改變其實算法是一個最主要是哪一個習慣在改變您覺得網購 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4071.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4099.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
網購喔網購所以增加的是包裝但是其實包裝外送等等的生活型態的這種改變外食的這個改變在這幾年改的特別的嚴重但是其實最大的一個還是所謂算法的改變所以委員包括委員其實這裡面的包含我們把原來齁把一般公司的這個員工的這個廢棄物就員工造成的吃飯的造成的以前都是算的失業廢棄物現在算成我們一般廢棄物算進來了然後還有我們把包含了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4100.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4126.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
可是你不管是一般廢棄物或是各種廢棄物都是升高啊?基本上我們以前沒有算成我們的所以我們把那個算進來我們算法算得更精準所以就升高了這個才是現實啦那也給您看一下齁因為0403地震的關係所以大家手機都有收到這個訊息大家都知道說我們的玉山變矮了變矮5公分這是一個地質的現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4127.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4153.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
但是呢這個就很多新聞標題是寫玉山變矮了可是各地的垃圾山反而一直在長高現在中南部是很嚴重剛剛也有委員提到因為有一些垃圾場是臨近於水源比如說雲林啊台南南投等等的還有可能會造成水源的污染請問部長對於這樣子有什麼解方或是想法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4154.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4178.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
委員有兩個一個是傳統的垃圾山我們傳統舊垃圾山現在大概處理的都有把它掩埋起來然後都有做一些處理當然還是有一些有問題啦我必須承認那但是這個委員剛剛這張圖是掩埋場就的佔治場等於是他還是在拿去燒的所以這個但是他這個處理的應該沒有很好他應該要把它打包起來不會有這種惡臭飄散或是火災啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4178.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4196.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
好那當然剛有提到說我們看到環境部2023年永續發展的目標自願檢視報告中短期的策略是2023到2027減量回收及資源循環推動計畫這個短期目標要怎麼樣做到減量回收因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4197.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4215.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
在上一任的部長呢他有做到說我們全台灣有42個市場有在推禁止用一次性的塑膠袋像這樣子的政策啦您會有想要把一些政策再做擴大或是延續把一些政策收起來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4216.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4238.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
報告委員不會的齁但是我也必須說我們環境部在過去在推動在大的賣場都很成功那個都要花錢買最後的理路就是市場但是市場跟每個民眾都有關所以我跟我同事討論之後其實大概我們希望用別的方式希望有文化改變的方式習慣的改變方式因為我們報告委員我們其實推的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4239.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4254.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
很多媒體就會來說你看你看又要收錢了生活多麼不便我們買個菜買個魚都不能用塑膠袋我很不方便這個負面的聲音一直出來但是我們覺得說其實國外就是慢慢這樣在進行我們也沒有限制包含生鮮的部分還是可以用只不過要減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4256.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4269.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個其實您想您當初推就之前環境部當初推一次性就不提供餐具等等也是有非常多人抱怨但現在大家都已經習慣了所以其實部長您只要下定決心就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4270.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4285.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那委員要支持我喔這個要大家一起來支持啦但因為這個我們有時候遭遇到大家的說啊我很不方便他只要訪問幾個婆婆媽媽說你以後市場沒有垃圾袋你怎麼塑膠袋你怎麼辦那這個負面的聲音就會湧到我們這邊來好我們會支持部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4287.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4302.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個是環境部小編我不知道這個數據當然我還會再詳查這個數據是哪裡來但是他說每年投入90億來做源頭管理跟資源回收可是呢這個綠色和平民團其實他也有去拜訪您 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4303.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4331.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
也有拜訪我們許許多多的委員他計算7年的平均在垃圾末端處理每年平均是17億可是源頭管理才0.8億竟然連1億都不到用在比如說之前環境部在推的就是署長也非常熟的淨線用一次性用品推廣循環杯等等其實源頭跟末端處理我們花的預算是整整差距22倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4332.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4352.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
所以這樣子的比重是不是應該要去做調整因為處理垃圾預算分配有問題嘛你源頭管理是不是應該要更加提高才對報委員這個0.81是我們環境部的預算那這個90億應該是包含了包含資源回收等等的包含基金的等等的預算所以我們資源回收一年是花89.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4355.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4369.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
對他是有那個根本報告就是他有信託基金跟肥額基金那我們現在就是有公告14項他進了處理業都說我們都會進行補貼好讓我們的塑膠瓶還有這個電器能夠回收是是是我覺得方向是對的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4370.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4395.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
最後我們也想問一下我們2050年淨零碳排入法是一個長久以來國發會幫我們制定的目標可是我們看數據30年以來我們從1992年的1.32億公噸碳排放一直到今天是2.75億噸根本是翻倍成長您對於2050淨零碳排的目標還樂觀嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4397.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4398.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
謝謝部長今天吃了誠實豆沙包 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4417.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4430.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以你勇於承擔很感動因為這件事情是要博人生活的改變所以我們包含對能源的概念的改變都要改變很大所以你會幫自己設定一點點短期的目標比如說我們可以稍微趨緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4432.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4432.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們需要這樣的產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4450.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4477.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
所以今天本席也提供您一個想法因為我們既臨轉型有12個關鍵的戰略其中一個是碳捕捉的技術利用跟封存而這一點冰島做得非常好因為他們一年可以移出36000噸的二氧化碳大約是等於8600輛車子的碳排所以當碳排是我們國家整個額外成本的時候補碳機就像我們的印鈔機一樣環境部是不是有想要加入這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4478.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4507.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
打造補碳國家隊然後來規劃投入自主的發展你有沒有這樣子的想法這個是我為了上一頁所以幫您一起想方法我們這個在全球都在關注這個碳補桌但是冰島它這個天然條件特別好水力特別好還有地熱所以它的電是排碳力很低的所以在臺灣做這個就完全不合因為我們的電排碳係數很高所以大家要一起努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4508.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4528.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
但是現在您對於這個中油啊臺電啊都已經投身這樣子的技術了我是很希望因為之前我們也互相質詢過這個光電板啊環評很多都已經落到經濟部在主導所以我當然也很希望支持部長在環境部的主導上也可以多一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4529.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4552.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
對,幫我委員這個其實我們會積極的來跳脫原來大家設定的環境部的角色我們主動的跟各部會來協調因為其實這方面您的專業知識一定是更豐富嘛您也應該要更投入相關研發技術補貼等等的對,這個主要是在國科會啦那我們會跟國科會有一個跨平台的小組來討論這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4553.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4574.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
最後稍微問一下很多民眾關心的議題因為碳費這個議題已經吵了很久但是定價一直都還沒有出來那我知道說第三次審議會你們有聊到你們最後的結論是說要自主管理或者是說你們給他定一個指定目標我看最後的會議記錄是這樣7月還會再開第4次的審議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4577.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4598.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
但是呢國際的航空組織ICAO他會想要定降低航空公司的淨零目標因為航空公司的碳排放在全球的排放量大約是2.1%所以許多國人因為他們會在鄰近的國家旅遊所以他們會很關心說這個您有沒有去 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4600.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4617.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
關切這個ICO他們大概制定的碳費會在多少那會不會影響到國人出遊的那個成本旅遊成本那個我們我們國籍的航空公司特別是有一家國籍航空公司他們就做得非常的認真他的已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4618.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4618.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
謝謝陳京輝委員的發言接下來請邱政軍委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4657.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4677.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
好主席好我們有請我們彭部長請彭部長來邱委員早部長你好你是第二任的環境部長也是執行我們這次進行轉型碳費徵收的政策的一個部長所以產業在產業界 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4679.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4687.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
大家對你都有這個碳焦慮害怕你碳費定價真的從300元開始收取影響這個產業的生存 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4691.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4708.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那還好本席看到部長已經公開表示希望一開始不要給企業太大的壓力那未來費率會斜率向上分階段調高費率本席非常肯定部長的這個務實的一個態度那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4710.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4723.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
第4次的碳費審議會暫定在7月5日召開在這之前我還是要為產業請命就請教部長,碳費是目前方向是一公噸是要收300元嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4724.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4749.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
報告委員 這個目前還是由碳費審議委員會他們正在制定費率當中那他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布對 因為我這樣講根據我們碳權專家臺北大學的李建明教授的分析如果碳費按照每噸300元的課徵將對部分產業衝擊是非常的巨大那我這邊有一張表請部長看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4750.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4768.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那是針對國內主要的鋼鐵及石化業以去年的碳排量來計算中鋼公司一年碳排量2200萬公噸就是要繳交60億的碳費那遠遠超出它稅前的盈餘46億元也就是說中鋼還沒有繳稅就先虧14億 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4773.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4791.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
第二,我們看中時化原本稅前就虧損5.9億那再繳5億碳費他就加倍他就會虧到10億元左右那台數呢則要繳交高達98億元的碳費占去稅前的盈利的17%整體這個徵收的規模可能達到五六百億 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4796.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4815.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
請問部長這樣的費率您認為這樣的對於我們的企業它真的可以承受嗎?報告委這個要算這個碳費這是一個很複雜的算法很多人不懂所以我必須說這個表格是計算太過簡化了事實上我們必須考慮到一個產業他的自主減碳的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4816.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4839.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以如果依照我們現在來看這幾個企業像中鋼它就做得非常好如果依照它有自主減量計畫甚至也要考慮到它的高碳洩漏係數的話其實它不用講那麼高啦但是這個還是要碳費省營會決定就是說碳費不是只用一個碳費它的排碳量多少乘以一個價錢出來的結果因為我們擔心的是這樣就是說如果企業的這個部分如果真的這樣收的時候那 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4839.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4863.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我們也要全門考量不要影響到民生因為有很多東西它是相關連帶的它如果企業是這樣它成本增加它就會把物價調漲那調漲對我們老百姓直接的影響這個可能部長也要把它考慮進去那當然部長您認為我們的碳費現在應該多少錢才合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4864.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4891.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
如果依照基本上還是要衡量這個是要碳費審議委員會來決定但是以目前全世界必須有幾個考量例如說像歐盟他的碳交易大概是70塊歐元現在的價格是70塊歐元左右然後在有些國家大概都是預期未來到2030到2040年可能會到100到200塊美元所以其實這些企業應該現在要趕快想辦法不是說我不准收這個費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4892.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4913.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我跟部長報告就是說這個碳費啊審議小組這個決議我們大家都知道但是傳出來聲音非常多在之前的傳出每公噸大概300元也有人建議說500元的剛剛我們部長有提到歐盟的這個部分那其實我們仔細看了一下其實歐盟他是超出標準才課稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4915.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4935.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
所以他超出標準他們的科稅標準是針對每個產業前10%的這個企業的平均碳排量所以稅率看起來很高實際上卻只徵收超標的部分幾乎有九成是不用收費的而且用不到的碳排量還可以當作這個碳權的一個交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4936.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4957.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們再看新加坡他初期的碳費只收五塊錢美金日本也是收兩塊兩塊錢美金所以我們的十塊錢美金就是憑良心講我們這樣看起來是非常的高我在這邊建議我也聽到很多企業建議希望在這個費率希望能定在一百元以內 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4958.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4981.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你認為有可能嗎?包括委員這些國家你列的這幾個國家你跟你前面那一張碳費的是衝突的所以我建議說我們一起可以把這個如何去計算那個方式搞懂因為很多的媒體他不是很懂啦所以搞懂是最主要的那第二件事情呢基本上的這些國家都有碳交易跟碳費或碳稅碳稅的兩個制度並行啦那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4982.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5002.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
未來呢這個環境部也會考量說按照國際的趨勢這個也是總統的政見我們有一個更好的更完善的我希望部長今天提這個當然就是希望部長能夠把這個東西當作非常重要的一個事情也希望我們的審議小組呢大家都能夠好好考量因為還沒訂我跟委員報告齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5003.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5028.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
五百多家企業裡面前面大概三四百家高科技業界他們都準備好了他們還在罵我們說收那麼低對他們國際競爭力不利所以希望高那至於說比較困難的這個就是我們要跟經濟部一起來合作來能夠幫他們的忙順利的轉型所以不是說我們全部調低就好那我們也必須考量到我們國內的這個CPI這個不要讓這個綠色通膨快速的發生起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5029.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5048.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
但是綠色通膨呢依照全世界的這個情況我們還是必須要考量要淨零碳排一定要有一些不一樣還有企業也非常關心我們自主減量的這個優惠的費率那根據環境部的規劃企業適用於優惠的費率未來10年必須達到削減排飯量就是說鋼鐵業是25%大概25%水泥業是22.3%其他的行業42%也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5055.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5084.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
碳排量每年必須達到4.2左右才可以享有優惠的費率而這個我認為這個目標我跟部長講這個有點高因為我們目前以我們臺灣做得比較好的幾個企業比如說日月光控股臺達電還有聯電及台塑都拿到雙A級都拿到雙A級的但是4月初這個週刊的揭露即使是台塑集團這種減碳的策略都已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5085.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5095.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
都已經通過CDP的評鑑的資優生也達不到10年42%的碳排的一個目標那我認為這個標準有點高啦既然剛開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5097.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5116.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們是要鼓勵大家來做這件事情我認為我們部裡面有必要去調整這個優惠的一個門檻讓我們的企業大家都能夠更樂意來做這件事情委員的建議其實我們的概念還是一樣一開始低然後慢慢逐步的會升高這個是我們的目前的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5117.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5139.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
當然我們就是希望這個碳費的徵收也好我們進行減碳是國際產業的發展趨勢那當然徵收碳費的目的是要減碳不是賺錢沒錯這個希望政府能夠循序漸進然後慢慢的邁向這個經營轉型不要一下子讓企業生存不下去這也不是我們樂見的那另外第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5142.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5153.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們最近6年來我們家庭廢棄物的事業廢棄物這個量產生大幅度攀升了112年已經分別達到1158萬公噸即2004萬公噸那並且因為這個政府的事業廢棄物處理的這個狀況包括南部最終的處理廠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5164.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5181.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
撤銷以及各地方失業廢棄物專門處理設施這個深色的不順利那112年已經有高達171.5萬公噸的失業廢棄物進到我們政府的焚化爐裡面這個是非常嚴重因為我們計算的話是大概是 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5182.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5199 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我們目前的公有的這個焚化爐它年處理量可能只有600公噸等於佔了三分之一的這樣除了會排擠到我們一般垃圾的妥善處理率也會衍生這個很多的問題那接下來我們看這一張照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5201.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5214.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
都是擱縣市垃圾處理受到的失業廢棄物的排擠．無法順利處理而暫置的一個狀況目前包括桃園新竹南投等地方的垃圾堆積如山其中桃園市龍潭區 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5216.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5240.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這個電子壺垃圾掩埋場已經堆至上百萬公噸的這個垃圾甚至已超過防護欄這恐有它這個坍塌的危險另外也產生不肖業者會在中間處理業者這個亂到的一個情形部長知不知道現在政府焚化爐處理失業廢棄物一公噸多少錢?失業廢棄物大概一萬塊上下 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5245.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5263.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
地方政府欸?對,就焚化爐不是。焚化爐沒有吧?地方政府。您是說進地方政府焚化爐?進地方政府焚化爐是一萬塊。上下。那我知道的齁,有些這個失業廢棄物的這個處理商、清運商啦,他說的費用可能不止。 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5264.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5281.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
可能不只這樣子那他進到等於是他利用因為他如果進一般民間的可能更高可能更高所以我要講的重點是我們不能讓這些業者他用我們供的焚化爐讓他們來得到他們的那個獲利這個是暴利 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5284.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5307.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那當然我們也要讓我們這些業者有地方去啊那當然我們知道剛剛有提到我剛剛也看到好幾個委員有提到就在我們現在垃圾事業廢棄物處理的部分根本沒有地方去根本沒有地方去這個是一個非常嚴重的問題搞到後面這邊也不能說那邊也不能說的時候就是亂到就是亂到嘛那部長對於這個有沒有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5308.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5318.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們現在已經有方案來推動這件事情是甚麼方式行政院已經核定了方案那就是有環境部還有經濟部跟國發費我聽說有在做20那現在有推動12座設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5324.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5350.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我還給部長建議這是有很多的政策其實我們知道垃圾沒辦法處理可是到了地方當要設置的時候就是因為地方的聲音不同就退了那一般民間業者其實也是碰到這樣的問題我在這邊建議環境部應該要拿出政府的一個魄力該做就是要做你不然到時候這些東西要去哪裡呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5350.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5373.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
所以我認為各縣市都應該要有一個責任區甚至於我認為部長你應該給各縣市鼓勵、獎勵甚至要求各縣市至少要做一做各縣市處理自己垃圾的問題應該是很合理的我覺得用這個邏輯請政府出面然後政府來監督就不會擔心因為往往這種東西這是閒物設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5375.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5375.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5404.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5416.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
謝謝邱政軍委員的發言謝謝部長的回應那我們下一位請黃秀芳委員發言黃秀芳委員請謝謝主席我們請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5420.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5438.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
好委員好部長好部長在2013年齊柏林導演他拍了這個看見臺灣那我也相信當時齊柏林導演跟部長應該也還蠻熟的因為他那時候要拍的話可能有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5439.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5467.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
關於天氣的狀況有一些資訊都是詢問你我在2013年看到齊柏林導演的這部電影其實還蠻感動的因為我在2014年那時候就在各個我們彰化的各個社區因為那時候有公播了所以我們就買了版權然後在各個社區播其實影響到蠻多人就看到說台灣的山林 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5468.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5468.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
委員會議委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5486.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5513.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
沒有減反而是增那部長剛剛講說可能是計算的方式不一樣可是我在想說竟然已經經過了從齊柏林導演到現在可能也將近10年的時間那我們希望說環境部應該要做一些事情總是讓自己的這個生長的環境能夠更好而不是更差因為剛剛看到很多委員他們秀出來的這個照片到處垃圾山 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5514.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5515.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們也知道就是說整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5544.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5563.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
台灣的這個垃圾站制場剛剛部長也有特別提到大約是100座那其中有這個將近60座是距離學校不遠距離學校不到這個兩公里的地方那有的是在水源區尤其是南投本來鳥嘴潭這個鳥嘴潭旁邊的那個垃圾場 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5566.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5585.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好像也已經開始就是已經清理也快清理完畢了嗎那因為他是在那個水源區所以我是想要請部長針對這部分未來我們有將近100座的這個垃圾站置場那有一些部分是接近學校的這個垃圾站置場 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5585.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5610.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那未來我們要怎麼去處理我覺得這個總是要處理剛剛部長有講就是說如果是把它堆成這樣子的話其實是造成環境的這個污染水源的污染那空氣的污染那也許一把火之後可能又造成很嚴重的這個代藥性空污影響身體健康所以我想請教部長未來我們這樣的一個垃圾戰車場未來要怎麼樣逐步去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5611.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5625.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
報告委員短期是把這個好好的打包處理不要有火災、惡臭這個是短期我們要做的事那長期的話因為我們到117年等於是說等於是焚化爐的運能會上來所以這些都會把它去化掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5626.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5640.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以大概我們會再給委員一個時間大概遇到什麼時候但是這個要完全到零這個還需要跟地方政府再做一個通盤的這個計算所以我們會再想辦法再給委員一個數字出來這個也是我們早上在討論的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5641.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5655.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
所以我是認為就是說部長你自己來自民間我相信你跟齊柏林導演應該有很好的交情那他拍這部電影最主要也看到臺灣的好臺灣的美 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5656.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5681.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那也有臺灣這個環境被破壞的一面那很難得就是說部長你原本在民間那現在可以在這個環境部當部長應該也可以做一些事情所以我們希望就是說部長你在這個位置上應該要發揮你的影響力那讓整個臺灣不論是在環境上能夠有一些改變我覺得最基本的這個垃圾的問題應該要去做一個解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5681.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5703.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好謝謝委員的鼓勵這個我跟齊柏林是真的是好朋友他過世的那個前幾天的記者會我還去參加做到後面結果隔兩天他就失事了我是到現在為止都還蠻那個這個就覺得像您提到這個就感受非常的強那他其實拍了很多這個垃圾山那也跟委員報告因為我最近其實都有去 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5704.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5728.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
很低調的去看一些支援回收的處理我的確看到一些問題那我會花時間去看看委員提到的這個臨近學校的地方我們有沒有更好的方法來處理但是整個粉化爐的量能夠提升出來支持他們這才是現在我們可以用的方法那未來我們就支援回收促進法這個如果說支援學完促進法如果可以把它完成的話應該環境部扛起責任來 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5729.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5746.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
會更有好的效果所以我們希望年底如果可以這一次草案預告的話明年如果送到大院來處理的話應該會更有效是好那部長我想請教就是說之前那個環團有拜位這個行政院陳情就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5747.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5769.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
陳其那表示說這個源頭減量的這個預算不足那造成廢棄物越積越多的最主要的原因那環境部當時又回應就是說補助地方的這個源頭減量的經費就是當時可能沒有被環團記錄才會讓這個源頭減量的預算看起來好像是不多那也承諾說明年源頭減量的預算會增加那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5774.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5796.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
看到就是說你們有講說資源循環促進法在年底就會送進這個立法院草案預告希望明年可以送進來那如果草案預告是在這個明年你是說明年今年年底然後明年可以開始來送到大院來審那這樣子你明年的預算要怎麼增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5799.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5826.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
現在已經開始要針對明年的預算對現在開始要針對明年的預算要省了嗎那你這樣子的話你明年的這個源頭減量的預算要怎麼增加那各位報告就是我們在戰略部分有些相關的用途比如說要再使用啊修復或者循環採購這些都有在同時推動那因為促進法的話可以讓我們跟各部會還有我們要去要求業者做一些規定那更能有強制力也能夠建立一些制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5828.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5850.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我想請部長因為其實很多的政策只要是環境部有在推動其實地方也會跟著配合就像之前我們一直在講的這個減塑膠還有一個是禁用塑膠吸管其實我覺得環境部有在推地方他們主動就會配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5852.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5867.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
環境部如果這個政策沒有很用力在推的時候可能地方就覺得好像現在中央沒有很大力在推可能就沒有那麼用力在譬如說吸管的部分可能就沒有很用力在推所以我覺得一個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5868.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5884.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
中央的推動跟地方民眾是不是會去配合其實我覺得有很大息息相關就像之前我們一直在說禁用這個塑膠吸管可是民眾他自己就會知道說那我以後可能就要用那個鐵那個鋼的那種吸管或者是用那種紙吸管甚至用那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5885.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5887.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以我是不是可以請部長你再回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5913.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5938.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
其實我其實現在都是在不斷的有時間都會拜訪地方的縣市首長啦希望變成是一個策略夥伴的關係那剛剛這個源頭講那個部分其實我有注意到有些縣市的確是非常認真啦那有些縣市他可能重心不大一樣所以我們會環境部應該會起一步調啦像我們昨天弄淹地的活動幾乎所有的縣市環保局就全部都來了所以我們會在這個部分會再努力加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5938.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5961.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
好那我也感謝就是部長你有從這個最小我們剛剛講的那個菸地其實那個也是很有感可能我們如果可以設一個譬如說在公共場合設一個吸菸室它是菸地不要亂丟或者是在一些公園或者是在公的這個場所設吸菸室或者是那個菸地的那種回收的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5962.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5982.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5982.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6008.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以我覺得說真的源頭減量真的非常的重要那另外就是說我們講剛剛講的這個生活習慣的改變可能這個網購網購的生活習慣改變那可能會收到這個紙你買的東西可能包裝紙盒紙箱真的都非常的多那這樣子是不是也要鼓勵業者就是用回收箱好像這個回收箱好像好像也不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6009.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6012.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們會來主動來跟他們來聊聊天說看怎麼樣幫忙這些創新的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6025.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6049.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
好那這個就再拜託拜託部長那我們希望就是說台灣真的好山好水真的需要大家一起努力然後我們也拜託部長在新的這個剛上來之後這個總是新人有一些新的魄力新的氣象所以我們一起努力好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝防西方委員的發言謝謝部長的回應那下一位我們請蘇清泉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6059.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6064.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
謝謝主席。我請部長。好。有請部長。蘇磊好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6066.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6092.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
部長我看我們的廢棄物裡面最大的問題是塑膠啦塑膠堆啦是PVC之類的那有沒有辦法請那個那個衛生物專家喔看看有沒有衛生物可以分解分解這個PVC這樣問題就解決啦因為現在紫類的有機類的都會腐爛嘛都會腐分那現在以前菸埋場 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6094.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6099.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我今天要問你是醫療廢棄物這個哪一個署長比較專門的因為你講都沒有講到醫療廢棄物那醫療廢棄物的事業管理機關是衛福部但是衛福部沒有能力管理這個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6122.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6149.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
他自己也要分類而已所以我跟大家報告這個是他有一般就事業廢棄物一個是一般醫療廢棄物一個是有汙染性的廢棄物那來下一張你先看那個袋子我們現在在醫院裡面就是分五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6152.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6157.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
五天就是放到我們一般的文化場對不對五天就是要回收的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6159.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6161.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那這個環保署到最後還是你們要來統籌吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6189.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6217.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這是黃袋子現在就是像譬如說下面各位看到下面這個這針頭當然是要燒掉那是針筒還有這些管線譬如說洗腎室洗腎室一天台灣洗腎病人將近10萬人血液透析跟腹膜透析搞不好超過了那這些管線像血液透析他的管線一個病人就要用一套然後disposable就丟掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6219.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6237.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那這些管線事實上是沒有去接觸到什麼東西那這些管線沖完之後高壓、魅菌是可以回收的現在做的都是把它做這個衣啊做這個衣啊這個我們都去看過台南啊台中我們都去看過那像這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6239.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6254.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
你有沒有辦法要輔導說盡量能回收的就回收那真的是很汙染的接觸到病人的針頭的查CVP的那個是真的要燒那環保署你這一環保環防部隊這個有沒有什麼看法部長還有書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6256.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6273.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
報告這個委員這個我有跟那個衛福部長談到這個事情我應該會隨意來兩個部會來討論那因為現在的生物醫療廢棄物大概有8家的公司在處理我們福島8家那目前的確是有這種滅菌再利用的這個針對這個針頭還有塑膠的針管這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6276.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6304.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以現在燒的不多了嘛用燒的直接燒掉的一年不多但是回收的現在到了七八萬噸了齁不只齁第一張第一張那個第一張回收大概每個月是量能大概是兩千噸兩千噸啦每個月一個月兩千噸不過總一年是七萬多七萬八千多噸那拿去燒掉的就是一般的廢棄物就是我伯爺的啦十二萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6305.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6319.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
大概3萬多噸啦生物醫療的話是3萬多噸分化你這個這個你有沒有什麼想法要怎麼來提高這個因為我個人的看法是這個回收是蠻重要的啦就是你們要去垃圾減量這個是好的事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6325.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6343.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們這邊是會來輔導這個醫院他怎麼樣去分選然後可以再利用但是我們也希望說衛福他可以來幫忙譬如說在醫院評鑑的時候我們可以加入說如果你醫院做一些再利用或者簡單的工作那可以列入一個評鑑加分的項目那這樣更能鼓勵這個會有誘因那最好是能補助一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6344.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6364.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
你錢那麼多就補助一點嘛對不對我們跟衛福部差很多好幾倍我也要支持我們啊衛福部錢比較多包含醫院也要減碳啊這個我們都對啊醫院上次跟你執行的牌放也不少啊很多很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6364.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6389.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那衛福部這些專家學者應該沒有能力去弄到這一塊這個還是你們專門所以不要說這個是事業單位他們就要自己去負責不可以這樣做要去農業部 農業廢棄物就農業部去負責農業部才有能力到最後還是環保部 環境部最大你最大臺灣環境要靠你啊是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6392.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6418.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個我會跟邱部長來討論這個事情好不好那來接著我講這個小琉球的事小琉球有兩個很嚴重的問題第一個小琉球有在推這個杯子循環杯然後循環杯全台灣用循環杯的才1%而已這個我有data但是小琉球的data多少我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6419.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6444.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
所以你們可能要查一下給我資料那小六九這個杯子現在好像八十幾家餐廳有還有賣量的有加入但是我以醫生的角度看這個東西你看用一桶在那邊洗洗一洗清潔劑人工還要晾乾還要烘乾還要消毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6446.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6467.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這樣還會合嗎?這個推得起來嗎?你們有沒有補助?有補助沒有啊那邊自備環保杯買東西就折扣五塊錢啊然後洗完杯是不是有感染啊汙染啊臺北不是有兩三家麥當勞本來用那個後來都收掉了大家怕啦真的會怕啊這要怎麼改善? |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6473.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6493.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
其實要鼓勵自己戴啦第一個還是要鼓勵自己戴啦阿這個只是說一個循環的一個方式你沒有辦法戴的話我們盡量用這個因為小琉球那個地方如果我們不這樣做的話垃圾永遠沒辦法減量所以衍生到第三個問題小琉球現在的垃圾部長你覺得他要怎麼做運回來台灣用 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6497.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6507.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
用茶,一個一個吊在房間再來台灣這有夠誇張的,你知道嗎?前一陣子根本沒有人要飆啊所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6509.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6532.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
對於基如山 我不知道幾十萬棟就很嚴重臭氣沖天然後漏火就都衰衰下來那小琉球本來有一個焚化爐那個焚化爐不能用嗎為什麼不花點錢把它弄好然後垃圾從小琉球一袋一袋用太空包這樣掉掉到火船上然後帶回來屏東燒 砍頂燒 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6535.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6552.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
你會把那個焚化爐弄好嗎?那些都是你們出錢的嘛專題的焚化爐也是你們出錢的對啊 報告委員那個一個焚化爐運作要有一個量啦小溜球雖然垃圾很多可是如果一個焚化爐運作量又不夠啦養不起 又養不起這是最大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6552.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6570.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那你這樣的話你那個問題是無解捏因為他每開飆就沒有人要飆所以這次縣政府也強力介入然後把那個環保車就直接開到貨船上 走到塞塞修旅渠 走到塞到船上再載回來 再再塞去看電 看電話路你要想一個辦法把他解決啦這樣這樣這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6581.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6582.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們要排個考察來小寮球看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6611.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6615.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以這個小琉球的垃圾問題部長你要想想看要如何解決這個真的解決是不行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6635.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6635.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
希望委員支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6666.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6686.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言在這邊做一個宣告等一下在賴會員委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席有請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6690.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6716.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
王委員好部長好很高興今天又能夠在這個地方跟您切磋一些有關於環保的事情這次我很高興有機會去參加世界衛生會相關的會議擔任視導團的一部分其他的包括江副院長一起去日內瓦做視導 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6718.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6747.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
其實也得到蠻多的啟發所以想要再利用這個機會詢問一下部長相關的一些想法或者是未來我們可以努力的方向那這次其實很高興有機會同時去參加或者去洛杉磯管理學院參訪了有關相關國家競爭力年度報告的一些得到的資訊他們預計在6月18號就要公布今年年度的報告的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6748.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6777.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我們也很高興在2023年IMD的世界競爭率全球是第6名當然我們很期待它今年還有更好的成績出來在這個很高興大家共同努力得到這樣的成果的同時其實賴總統在今年的5月20日的就職演說裡面也提到有關於我們必須要發展創新驅動的經濟模式透過速度轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6778.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6800.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
以及近年轉型的雙軸力量來協助中小企業升級轉型不過我們看到的就是在IMD的排名的部分我們有一些擔心的地方包括說雖然我們的這個永續貿易指數總排名是第10名可是呢在於經濟社會還有環境面的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6801.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6821.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
在一共70個指標裡面有關於環境項目我們排的是第27名當然部長是先任的其實歷任的部長也都非常非常的用心在改善相關的這些指標或者是整體的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6821.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6832.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那部長依照您對於這個IMD在最後面的相關的競爭力的部分您有沒有信心明年可以更好? |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6835.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6858.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這個其實有很多的國際組織都會排名那我也曾經是國際的組織的排名的審查委員過那當然這個我比較相信這個IMD的確他的水準是很高的那我們現在的資料來看的話因為他拿的是比較舊的那我們當時也沒有相關英文的資料所以我們現在把英文畫之後讓他們可以直接每年都會抓到我們資料之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6858.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6876.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我們在今年的排名應該會往前提升所以請委員放心但是我們還有很多要努力的地方啦包含我們的碳的人均的排碳量等等這個我們要努力啦是因為下一章告訴我們說表現相對不是那麼滿意的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6877.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6905.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
包括像森林砍伐當然不是全部都是環境部的問題而是相關於整個國內如何能夠提升環境保護的部分包括森林砍伐也希望能夠有更精進另外就是環境貿易標準、碳再生能源等等剛剛提到比較期待的就是針對協助中小企業升級轉型的部分其中有關的就是淨零轉型的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6906.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6930.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
不知道部長目前有沒有瞭解哪一些的企業做的是相對是比較好可以當作我們點上標準的企業不管是在智慧轉型、晉能轉型還有他們帶動的這個經濟模式的部分可不可以有相關的企業可以讓我們國內其他企業可以作為標竿學習的這些案件可以讓我們瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6931.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6952.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
報告委員其實臺灣的科技業因為它的貿易對外所以臺灣的科技業在減碳的或是永續的各種指標都做得非常的好那我知道我們經濟部也有這種以大帶小的整個供應鏈在做所以他們正在補充還是我們請我們署長來跟委員說明一下我舉一個例子就是最近那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6953.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6973.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
對喔,我們有集合國內電子五哥跟他們一起合作總共有差不多有200多家的供應鏈一起跟他們合作那這樣就是以大大小會垂直下來那以後對我們國際在探足機是有相當大的幫助那這樣以大大小它的成效才會大所以目前我們正在推展這一部分的一個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6974.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6994.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
是 謝謝因為我這次同時也去參訪了世界貿易組織他是我們台灣唯一參加的一個算是國際型的組織他們也很期待把這些概念帶進來以後可以去國際貿易組織去做相關的一些表達讓我們去引領如果未來針對於這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6996.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7015.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
參與世界貿易組織當中可以把近鄰轉型可以把它變成一個貿易架構之下可以去跟世界發聲讓世界看到臺灣的部分就麻煩大家一起往這個方面再來努力包委員我在上任前包含蘋果的它的供應鏈的採購永續的主管也特別跑來 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7016.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7017.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
好 謝謝謝謝這一部分的這個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7033.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7048.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
再過來剛剛很多委員也有提到醫療廢棄物的處理的部分循環的永續其實我們也了解如果環境部要推動零廢棄的話即使醫療機構它產出的廢棄物相較於其他的製造業跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7055.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7080.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
電力供應業相對是比較低只佔了不到1%可是我們看到比較擔心的就是醫療廢棄物的再利用率相對是偏低的我們下一張範疇片可以看到的就是其他的總事業或者是經濟部的事業的這些再利用率即使是一般的事業廢棄物的再利用率都可以高到八九十個% |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7081.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7103.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
可是很可惜的就是衛福部的目的事業即使是一般事業廢棄物也只不到10%那剛剛部長也有說會跟邱部長共同來討論如何能夠有效的提升這方面的在利用率那其實在5月的時候也針對這個問題請教了前任的薛部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7104.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7127.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那薛部長也有回應說會持續的與衛福部合作來研議相關的這個工具那也很希望部長你能夠持續的關注這個問題希望能夠近期就有機會把相關這個研議的成果可以讓我們來了解也可以持續的來注意這個未來的這個可以改善的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7128.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7145.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
因為醫療注重的是安全跟我們其他的廢棄物的所謂回收的概念不一樣所以這個部分我們要突破我真的會跟衛福部來討論因為至少是一般的廢棄物不是說有關生物醫療廢棄物這個兩個部分還是要能夠有效的分開 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7151.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7175.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
再過來非常謝謝部長一開始就提出大家很有感的這個燕地減量推動臺灣新文化運動有關於這個對於這個燕地部分造成的這個影響那您提出的這個有六大策略21加N的措施這個N加得非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7176.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7202.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
請教部長這個恩會包括哪一些的可能有感的內容這個齁因為我們昨天有大概有包括了北一女的同學還有兩位都是年輕的朋友來那我是希望不要我們政府來定啦民間比我們政府有創意啦開放增建啦那個恩就是開放民眾來參與好的創意我們就來好的話可以實行的話我們就來用那個恩的意思就是無限大 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7202.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7228.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們要從民間來啦 不要政府訂啦 我們政府訂的例如說我們取締大家一定很不高興啊 我們政府想辦法如何取締大概這個效果也很有限但是我們如果從這個民間的創意來改變這個文化 這個會更快啦是 想見這個彭部長的數學一定非常好 可以把N用到這樣的地方來 那請問一下未來我們在多短的時間裡面就有可能看到N的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7229.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7253.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我們預計是11月才會決選出來我最近近期應該會到各個縣市找委員或是縣市所長一起來撿菸蒂所以這件事情我們一定會先來做因為各位都是知名人士然後來倡議這個會很有感因為我們現在全台灣的煙灰缸就是在水溝所以我們要趕快改變一下這個習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7254.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7269.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個就從文化所以為什麼昨天找小野部長來就是這樣因為他來帶動來站台就是很有說服力謝謝那希望行動的時候也讓我知道一下連請委員來跟我一起撿菸蒂來看那個水溝都是菸蒂很誇張啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7270.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7294.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
非常樂意那最後再提醒有關於登革熱房子的環境的清理的部分我們知道上一次我請教薛部長的時候像經費的使用預算也已經到了一個步我們希望如果說需要透過這個滾動式的管理的話可以讓這個經費的部分再適度的去幫助地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7295.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7298.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
謝謝委員現在本土病例高雄已經沒有了現在147例所以高雄現在已經稍微緩和了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7321.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7321.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
謝謝主席﹖有請部長﹖請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7349 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7374.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
是部長我今天是回梁家那個因為在上一屆我長時間是待在衛環委員會那其實你是新的部長我有特別觀察你就是你大概是我們所有的部長裡頭最優雅的一個為什麼因為你的西裝西裝口袋常常帶了一個口袋巾況且你的口袋巾還會做不同的一個變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7375.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7396.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那這樣子的一個這麼講究這個穿著的一個部長然後讓你來我們這個環境部管所有就是我們周邊的一個環境裡頭最需要的這個不管是垃圾的處理還是其他的一個處理這個實在是一個非常妙的一個人才的一個應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7398.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7405.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我想今天要來跟部長探討就是所有違法的廢棄物這個掩埋其實理見不鮮就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7408.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7433.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
有沒有辦法去掌握那我們用一個現在看到的一個新竹的案例他的罰款才1500萬可是他的獲利首得有多少他是1.5億的獲利首得那你想想看這樣子的一個那個有這麼好的一個獲利大家其實不斷的真的就是說非法掩埋其實絕大部分都是慣患 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7433.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7433.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
委員會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7452.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7452.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7471.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7484.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
買賣的喔他是把它買來了以後用人頭用人頭去就是做這個買家那他把好的土挖掉了剩下的就是蓋上蓋上就是這些違法的廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7486.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7487.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
有沒有辦法管? |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7487.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7497.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
沒有辦法管光是我們台南就是違法的這個廢棄掩埋廠就是工廠的這個廠我們都超過100個點現在是在環境部裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7503.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7505.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
臺灣的一個產業裡頭就是台積電做得最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7532.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7552.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
對那就是我覺得不要用台積電你應該就是用一般一般所有中小企業這個所有的一個君子來講對我們就是希望用台積電他管理成功的經驗能夠擴散到全臺灣所有的廢棄物都要這樣來管制來處理這不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7553.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7578.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
完全不可能 因為台積電我跟你講 台積電他有很厚實的一個財力 這個板磨工一般才是兩千塊 你知道台積電他一天雇用他們多少 雇用他們四千五可是他要他們就是有非常完整的一個SOP的一個勞工的一個安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7579.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7598.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以我覺得你如果這樣子跟我回答的話部長我會覺得你沒有抓到問題的一個重點那我們再來繼續再看下去就是說這個垃圾車在輕盈的路線裡頭有沒有辦法追蹤這個是在上一屆的時候我持續一直在追蹤這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7599.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7619.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7619.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7638.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
部長,會後給我,沒有問題。會後把這個資料給我。那現在AI的一個發展在我們臺灣有一個非常好的建制的一個制度有沒有辦法就是在我們所有的垃圾車你甚至就是說在垃圾車清印的一個路線裡頭我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7640.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7642.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
再來在這裡跟部長再做一個這個探討就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7656.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7679.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
垃圾處理不完,增加焚化爐,它還是要活化。台南的垃圾處理的一個不足已經累計暫存了30萬噸,它這個需要20年,所以你說減淹地這是一個先示,這個是一個非常好的效果,可是問題就是暫存的這些垃圾量 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7680.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7693.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個不是只有台南有這些問題如果你到了很多的一個縣市很多的一個工業區裡頭你去看到了每一個場每一個場進去的時候都是暫存的一個垃圾在那個地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7694.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7716.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以部長我跟你講你這麼優雅你這麼注重你自己本身那你要去這麼多地方都是這麼多本首的地方所以你要知道這本首有多少所以就是說回收的再利用我們知道回收再利用的價格其實是影響民眾的一個回收的一個應用那我想你拿回去檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7717.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7747.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7747.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7748.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
部長我在這裏請問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7777.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7790.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
全國有幾座文化爐?像我們台南,我們台南就有兩座那有多少座?24加5,5是在興建不錯,就是這個後建的5座還是在進行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7791.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7791.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
接下來請紐許廷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7826.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7839.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
好 謝謝主席 這個環境部部長還有環管署署長有請請彭部長還有嚴署長部長早安今天我們等一下投影片好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7844.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7868.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
今天看到這個專題報告本席是覺得很高興因為這個環境部不只有注意到這個垃圾處理最終去化的問題也注意到了戰事的問題這其實是本席非常關心的一個事情根據環境部統計的資料近5年一般廢棄物的總生產量即超過千萬公噸那與此同時針對一般廢棄物的暫存量的部分從21萬公噸翻了4倍來到84萬公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7873.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7891.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那麼處理量減少了5.85%一般廢棄物的妥善處理率從98.85%降到93%從圖表裡面你可以看到這個黃色的部分其實是這個紅色的折線圖的部分其實是所謂的垃圾佔滯量從圖表的角度看起來它好像很少 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7892.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7909.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
叫做圖表為福但是選區巨量什麼意思呢右邊這張圖是全台灣有超過100座的垃圾佔治場也就是基於垃圾清運的動線啊人力啊資源啊等等的一個困境我必須要把垃圾佔治在某些場域 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7910.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7939.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
然後再送到最終的去化場所但是這些事情當初在臺灣還沒有那麼完整發展的時候可能二三十年前設立的時候它可能是都市的近郊周邊荒煙漫草沒有人大家也就放在那個地方就算了但隨著都市化的推進這個大樓重劃區開始蓋起來之後這個就變成最麻煩的零幣設施部長今天特別要提這一點就是因為龜山本期的選區龜山這個叫做大埔垃圾轉運站這是我們用空拍機拍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7941.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7965.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這個桃園的焚化爐最近在稅休所以基於這個戰事的壓力就會大幅的來增加那麼大幅來增加的時候這個就是標準的以前是城市的競交現在周邊都是大樓我因為這樣的事情被人家罵死了那沒辦法遇到這樣子我們總是要面對總是要處理所以我今天看到環境部講說垃圾戰事是一個問題的時候本席是很高興所以趕快來跟部長做一個研討 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7966.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7990.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
部長現在竟然注意到全台灣有這麼多的垃圾戰事場垃圾的戰事量也上升請問現在中央針對這樣子的一個結構問題有沒有任何的措施來做處理報告委員那個因為我們有正在5個新的焚化爐在興建預期它的容量會到700萬噸所以現在的你剛才看到那個龜山現在正在轉運等於是正在去化當中還要一點點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7994.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8008.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
對我現在講你剛剛講說我們投入的資源都是在末端去化也就是說我把末端的量做大那相對來講這個垃圾處理速度會變快戰事的壓力就會降低但很多戰事其實是基於距離啊基於什麼的我發現你環保 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8009.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8024.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個環境部裡面有一個這個多元垃圾處理計劃他其實有一筆預算好去處理這件事桃園市政府本來想要申請一筆預算把這個做個加蓋或什麼的但是我認為不可以我為什麼認為不可以呢你在這個大樓旁邊一旦加蓋那就轉一轉就走不了了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8024.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8047.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那這絕對不是周邊居民要的但我希望的是如果這一筆多元的這個處理計畫除了是末端的處理之外中途的轉運你能不能做靈活的調度如何來順利的轉運讓轉運站退場其實是增加青年隊的人手增加垃圾車的數量讓這個轉運的過程可以順利我就不用因為送不完然後影響垃圾清運而必須要有站置場 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8048.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8064.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這環境部願不願意來做一下多年的思考也就是說針對戰事一百多座戰場的退場計畫與一定的預算支持跟政策的協助請部長回答一下我們請我們署長可以這我請他來講的很重要的一個原因是包委員是這樣子那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8065.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8066.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
地方政府主責 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8088.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8116.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
但我們希望中央可以提供預算跟政策的支持好不好我們來研討這個事情可以嗎好不好希望環境部這個會後我們來做一下強加的研討我們跟台灣市政府來開個會來處理那這第一個是我們講說希望可以增加垃圾車的車輛也好清潔人員也好協助地方政府做這個事第二個我們講去化這個我跟前任的部長有講過應該有區域聯防的機制焚化爐個別縣市沒辦法處理周邊縣市合作處理那當然合作處理你可以讓地方自己談但地方自己談沒有誘因 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8117.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8137.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我希望中央設定誘因凡是各縣是不管藍的綠的只要願意做區域聯防的相關的預算補助或什麼多一點提供政策誘因讓區域聯防的機制可以常態化第三個本席也要花點時間去講就是我們發現到這個末端處理的經費很高因為你要蓋焚化爐可是前端處理的經費綠色的你看顯然落差非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8138.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8149.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這一點我希望可以做有效的調整我們大家都在講垃圾減量最有效的措施叫做專用垃圾袋我們新的部長上任之後這個要不要推是全國推還是各地方推有沒有想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8151.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8178.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
基本上齁這個我們大多數已經直接最後一路就市場啦但是我們跟我同仁討論之後不要硬推因為要改變生活習慣壓力很大對不對壓力很大我們會想一個更好的方式來解決兩種做法一個是你中央要全國推你的主力很高這本席理解那第二個就是鼓勵各地方先行嘛然後慢慢慢慢擴散但同樣就是同樣的邏輯你如果要鼓勵地方推中央請給地方優惠跟誘因跟預算的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8178.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8203.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
讓地方在推的時候門檻降低他們才會有比較大的誘因去推動然後從源頭這個其實就是你源頭可以上升的地方嘛補貼一些地方政府來鼓勵事辦這樣的一個措施然後也收集經驗讓這個政策能夠慢慢的來落地這是本席的希望好不好今天這三個訴求都是希望中央給予地方一定的支持來解決垃圾戰事的問題希望部長可以提供好的解決方案我答應過這個主席不能浪費太多時間謝謝林委員謝謝謝謝我們會來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8205.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8209.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
好謝謝牛許廷委員發言那我們現在休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8457.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8457.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
OK,謝謝各位。 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8843.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8859.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
好現在繼續開會請林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家午安是不是請我們這個彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8863.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8883.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
委員好部長你好到目前為止我們衛網委員會三個部長看得出來你真的是相當相當的認真這一點我還是要給你肯定但是部長你在新上任的時候你召開記者會的時候宣布了四大重點政策其中一個政策是空氣品質標準的再檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8886.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8902.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那你所使用的語言是說你會想辦法像擰毛巾一樣再擰出一點進步的可能你是這樣說的吧?是是那我今天就要跟你討論如何再更用力的擰毛巾擰出更乾淨的空氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8903.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8917.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那我想你講這個應該上任前啦幕僚上任後啦幕僚應該已經跟你講了在你上任以前的4月29號環境部就預告修正空氣品質的標準草案其中這個PM2.5的標準齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8920.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8938.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
年平均值要將由每立方米15維克加嚴到12維克但是24小時的平均值仍然維持每立方米35維克但是我今天要跟你講就是空氣品質標準它會連動到空氣品質指標的AQI |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8944.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8944.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
議員提供的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8962.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8980.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那你們呢在2022年委託了民調公司調查那民眾感受到空氣品質變化的主要依據除了天空目測的能見度環境的意味還有身體到底有沒有不舒服以外其實它就是根據你們公布的空氣品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8981.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8981.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
指標或監測值來作為一個依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9013.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9033.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
只有超過到橘燈才會對人體健康不好但是我今天要跟你講是因為2018年國衛院跟你們共同發表了PM2.5氣旋伏為例特徵對民眾健康影響的研究國衛院本土研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9034.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9040.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
他透過減量成本和健康效益評估發現全台灣PM2.5的濃度減量到15微克一立方米的時候那他可以避免1843個中風可以讓166個急性心肌梗塞避免掉可以減少568個肺癌可以712位的慢性阻塞肺病的個案可以避免發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9065.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9092.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那可以增進27210年的平均餘命可以增進30282年的健康人生而可以節省健保29億8千萬元肺癌可以避免的死亡數如果把它降到10維克每立方米的標準以下的話那避免的死亡人數是638人 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9094.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9113.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
然後在15維克他標準下他是可以減少死亡345人那10維克是可以少死638個15維克是只剩下345個所以要講這個是說只差5維克就可以避免死亡人數就可以少一倍這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9115.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9124.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以你說 空氣品質標準重不重要 很重要因為你國家的標準定在哪裡 決定了國民的健康啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9126.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9147.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那健康攸關的每一個家庭啊那也關係到健保的支出啊所以這個國會院的報告在2018年的建議對PM2.5對健康的影響在相當低的濃度仍有作用都應該要降到WHO標準年平均10維克日平均25維克 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9149.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9176.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這是國會院的報告他還是建議我們說我們的年平均還是應該要10維克而日平均應該是25維克那事實上WHO的這個標準國會院建議的這個WHO的這個標準事實上人家WHO的標準都變了WHO的標準變成說年平均是5維克但是一天24小時的平均是15維克 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9178.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9181.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
他們已經變了這4年過去了但是我們要追上WHO的舊標準我們的阿旺只能看著他們的車尾燈還是一樣在追車尾燈捏部長你說還看不到喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9196.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9216.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
對第一個WHO是一個建議的標準目前還沒有一個國家真的用5維克當成是一個指標那我在講說看上一次的人家在那個10維克還有日平均25維克10維克也是我想達到的目標但是問題是說我們現在我們以現在我們幾個空品區來看花東 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9218.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9235.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這麼乾淨的地方也只有7到8那我們西半部這麼密集那我們過去呢這個8年從20大概降到13點多大概降了7左右7維克左右其實花了蠻多錢的沒有啦20沒有降到13點多啦北部空瓶區12.2竹藐13啦中部16.5雲嘉南18.6高屏17.5啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9241.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9242.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
但是你現在他們已經預告的這個變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9271.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9295.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
十二跟二十四小時一天平均值三十五維克你有什麼想法?你說他在用力的擰毛巾擰出好的空氣品質你有什麼想法?第一個是說我們對未來的這個排放量 污染的排放量的推估以前我們是用直接展覽的方式我現在講標準啊你就講這個標準啊我現在跟你講你讓我再說一下不好意思因為你講遠我時間有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9297.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9311.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我的意思是說你把15維克降到12維克年平均量看起來好像是進步的可是呢可是呢你24小時一天的平均值仍然維持35維克這有什麼概念這個概念很簡單啊因為它是一個總量的概念你一整天你吸進去的還是35維克啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9318.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9327.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以根據你們上個月發布的最新的112年空氣品質監測年報顯示你們雖然全台灣平均是13.7但是扣除掉陽明站、三義站、恆春站的測值以後事實上你們的年平均濃度是14.2而且都還比111年上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9342.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9347.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
111年是13.1結果你112年的濃度是14.2而且當然我們講花東地區都不要講啦所以在這種狀況裡面你們只有修正這個年平均值對於一天24小時你沒有修正你這個是維持原狀根本沒有用力擰毛巾這樣子不算用力擰毛巾啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9368.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9373.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
但不出來有用力擰毛巾要擰出好的空氣品質的感覺那沒有進步的誠意 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9374.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9388.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
有啦,委員那個是4月底公布的啦,5月我們會,6月應該會再修正啦,我們會有一些進步的空間會存在啦好,那我再跟你講AQI好了,AQI指標它對應到PM2.5 24小時的平均值,然後將PM2.5 15微克顯示為良好你們早已經不符合公共衛生裡面所有學界研究的科學事實了 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9399.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9427.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
你們的AQI指標都不動結果你說24小時平均值只要是15維克裡面的PM2.515維克都叫做空氣品質良好事實上就不是啊人家公衛的學者說這樣子對健康影響就很大了所以錯誤的良好的燈號讓我們民眾誤判也沒有因應空氣品質採取正確的應對方式造成我們民眾的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9428.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9441.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
防護上的缺漏我要舉一個美國為例美國基於人體健康這個研究證據在今年2月已經將PM2.5的年均標準值下修為9維克同時在5月開始更新他們的AQI指標PM2.5要在9維克以下才會顯示為空氣優良的綠色那依據美國環保署的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9456.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9469.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
他說他們也是這樣做啊做健康研究預計調整以後可望在2032年前增進460億美金的進健康效益包括防止4500人過早死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9471.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9500.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
避免29萬個工作天的損失美國的國家環保局認為對健康空氣投資每一塊錢的美元就會產出77美元的效益投入資源來改善空汙是增進全民健康的關鍵尤其是跟空汙相關的死亡率還有慢性病都造成我國醫療龐大的這個資源的負擔不要忘了我們的氣管支氣管和肺癌 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9500.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9520.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
然而是台灣癌症死亡的第一位那我們現在講確實就是預防勝於治療嘛你要在健保上支出不如把這個錢花在我們的這個空氣防治上面所以在這裡呼籲政府不要讓污染成本消耗過多的健保資源那 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9521.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9545.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
你們的大棄屍以前張副司長跟媒體講過根據國衛院的研究成果考量到防治成本和經濟效益所以你們修正了草案才會變成24小時一天還是維持35維克雖然年平均值從15變成12但我們希望部長你考慮的不是只有產業的經濟效益而是應該再講 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9546.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9574.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
促進國人全民健康所省下的醫療資源負擔及健保成本真的是隱性的成本還有社會裡面每個為這種慢性病所支付的社會成本真的很高所以部長我是希望你在這裡可以承諾我們用擰毛巾的方式想辦法加嚴真正的去加嚴空氣品質包括降低PM2.5的年平均值以外還要我剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9576.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9595.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
二十四小時的平均值一天的平均值不能再繼續維持在35維克而且他跟他聯動的AQI指標也要一併調整讓我們民眾真正可以了解當下的空瓶狀況而讓我們可以自己做出健康防護可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9595.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9614.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
委員我已經在擰了再給我一點點時間新的數據大概會出來抱歉我再講一個議題這個也是很重要因為就是說跟空污有關就從燃煤到SRF我們要建議都應該要建制有害空氣污染物HF |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9615.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9620.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
的策站因為根據空氣品質監測站設置及監測標準我們這個空品測站的設置和站址的這個選擇要反應全國性跨線式及空氣品質變化趨勢為目的所以考量要設置在哪裡包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9635.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9649.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個監測站要監測什麼種類包括污染源的分布類型污染物的濃度等等所以你們是考量很多所以你們的監測有很多種監測嘛包括你們的一般空氣品質監測工業區的空氣品質監測交通的空氣品質監測國家公園空氣品質監測還有環境背景的空氣品質監測還有其他空氣品質監測站 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9660.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9669.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
甚至要了解特殊污染的建置的還有任務型的監測站還有光化測站特殊工業區監測站河川陽城監測大氣窯測等等但是呢我今天要跟你講的是根據環保署委託中研院在2023年所做出來的112年度細旋輔為力PM2.5化學成分監測及分析計畫指出我現在講喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9689.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9715.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
他們去監測很多煙道煙道裡面測出DEHP塑化劑這個報告指出煙道採樣採出DEHP塑化劑他們提出一個疑問這是不是跟SRF的使用有關而且要持續去追蹤和釐清那這事情為什麼這麼嚴重你知道嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9716.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9732.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
支援循環燃料它正在而且是你的重大政策即將要取代部分的燃煤現在空品的策戰都是為了燃煤的空品在做的設置和管制然後去因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9733.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9749.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那你SRF要變成很大一部分要取代掉一大部分的那麼它你現在的策戰還有檢驗的方法等等都不足以因應支援循環燃料就SRF所造成的空氣污染第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9749.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9756.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
不要講這個固定污染源連移動污染源像柴油車也會排放這個有害的空氣污染物而我們國內環境大氣對於這個HAPS的監測站就是監測有害空氣污染物的這個測站的設置都是設在工業區去看到排放 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9771.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9786.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
但是除了我剛剛講固定污染源以外還有交通污染源還有其他小型的麵源它是溢散出來的還有多位區裡面的受體造成民眾暴露在這種有害的空氣污染物裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9786.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9795.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那我們環境部在這一部分其實是沒有足夠的監測的都沒有所以我在這裡要建議環境部要設置全國重要性的HAPS的有害空氣污染物的空氣品質監測網路包括設置國家型的有害空氣污染物的趨勢策戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9808.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9832.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
包括要選定特定區域設置區域任務型的有害空氣品質測算要監測重要的HA、PS的物種那以美國聯邦這個環保署來講有害空氣污染物的監測的概念書裡面他就建議其實不是建置在污染源的旁邊而是應該要以受體 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9833.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9842.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
他對於污染、污染源對受體的影響所以不是建置在靠近大型污染源的策點而應以社區、學校、鄰近污染源的受體就是我會呼吸到這個受體他要據你的選擇要具代表性的策點 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9854.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9863.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
作為策戰的這個位置而且要定期監測調整監測區位確保這個民眾的健康所以我今天跟你講這兩件事情就是空瓶標準然後AQI指標再來就是因應SRF你們要讓他取代部分的燃煤那你的監測你的這個這個管制的方法其實都應該要對應出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9879.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9887.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以我在我認為你是認真的人而且你就宣誓說你要擰毛巾所以我們希望部長給我們看到你願意擰毛巾擰出更乾淨的空氣的誠意出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9896.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9923.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我幫委員那個SRF我的確去看了您說的問題的確正在發生當中那我也承諾我們會有一個SRF的營運體檢的輔導團針對所有的廠從這個分裝到最後燃燒最後的大氣品質會全面的體檢大概三個月內所有的廠是什麼意思就是包含它的這個分裝還有最後燃燒我們不是講SRF這個建築廠我們是講使用了所有SRF的這個燃料的 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9924.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9924.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
謝謝林淑芬委員的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9947.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9955.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我現在在這邊做一個宣告等一下在洪森翰委員質詢結束處理臨時提案現在請廖偉祥委員發言謝謝主席有請我們部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9969.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9983.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
首先我先簡單問一下因為你日前接受媒體說2050年的淨零排放達不到但是賴總統在他的就職演說說面對氣候危機必須要堅定的落實2050的淨零轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9984.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10010.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我想問說到底是你吃了誠實豆沙包呢還是賴總統吃了謊言豆沙包委員這個不能只看這個標題喔我說的是說全世界的目標很多的大家都坦言很難達到的目標這個gap很大例如說我們可能還是升溫3到4度左右那臺灣其實也一樣所以我們要加倍的努力要彎道超車所以的確是這個很難達的到啦對所以也希望部長我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10011.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10033.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
就算很難你也是要堅定的來為這個我們的環境來做出這個貢獻來努力好不好那部長這個在報導裡面也有主動提到針對這個地面型的太陽光電暗場納入環評進度那有關這個光電開發案除了重要是滴之外事實上免環評的這個題目反正這個在這個題目在3月21號的時候那個時候的薛部長我也有質詢過他 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10034.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10051.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那時候他說承諾會盡快那我也查了貴部4月份公布的立法計畫其中有預定說要在6月這上面有寫6月要預告這個要修正開發行為應實施環境評估細目跟這個範圍認定標準但目前還沒有看到內容請問部長什麼時候會預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10053.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10081.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
報告委員這個我們已經跟能源署還有包含的太陽光電業者相關的業者我們有在討論他們有特別來找我來瞭解這個細寒所以我們廣大各界的意見我們預計在6月底應該就會公告對部長因為身為環境部對於這個環境的造成的傷害的這些要怎麼樣去平衡包含穩定能源跟經濟發展跟環境的部分這環境部部長要拜託您要多用點心思沒問題沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10082.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10093.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
好再來就進到今天的主要的主題跟廢棄物相關的部分首先我想要先問你一個基本的概念和問題請問部長你認為合理的廢棄物政策為何這個方向應該是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10095.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10116.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
基本上所有的物質都不應該是廢棄物它應該是可以回收的但是如果沒有辦法支援回收才會變成廢棄物所以我們終極的目標就是這個等於是零廢棄所以我也想說我這邊想要講的是我們是不是可以有效的建立一個有效追蹤不污染環境的圖案 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10116.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10136.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
處理體系是為一個標準這個是我們的目標那今天就想要來問一下有關這個事業廢棄物中這個營建廢棄物的問題那營建廢棄物是包含這個一般大型公共工程公司行號或是中小型店面跟這個家庭裝修的營建廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10137.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10166.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那這些廢棄物當然是必須持有清除執照的環保公司清運那其產生的量跟處理量也需向環保單位申報那可以看到這個圖在2021年的時候環境部的前身的環保署統計資料為例全台營建廢棄物約有214萬公噸這個每年而營建廢棄物最多的縣市包含著這上面也是新北市台中市為前兩名 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10166.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10195.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
大概統計的圖可以看到這個圖那我想要問的是這個圖上是否已經有效的掌握全台的真實營建廢棄物的流向跟數量基本上現在已經有很顯著的分流管理然後針對它的產源跟流向的這個追蹤而且它每一台車都有一些證明的文件所以每一次說要顯著的要上網申報例如說它什麼地方產生然後到哪裡去結束所以我們甚至還有一個路上會攔檢透過GPS方式來去檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10196.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10216.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
所以部長你的意思是說你已經有效的掌握全台這個真實廢棄物的流向跟數量嗎?跟委員報告那我們如果是說大型的一個建物的話那就是用那個連單的方式來管制但是因為我們在家裡裝修有時候是找一些這個裝修的這個設計工作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10216.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10237.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
人員來那比較屬於個人產生的所以現在就是用產生員證明文件好來做後端的所以署長你的意思是說你覺得你們已經很有效的掌握這個全台的真實流向人數量嗎有嗎其實還是有一些還是對好我跟你說我要跟你說完全錯誤你們這裡有非常大的漏洞這是官方統計的資料但是我要給你看下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10239.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10252.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
除了官方統計的數量之外其實有許多部分的營建跟這個裝潢廢棄物都交由勤運業者運送到俗稱戰宅廠的地方部長知道這是具體是怎麼做的嗎這是沙石戰場對 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10257.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10275.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
其實這就是民間業者對於這個住家翻新跟改造所衍生的這個營建廢棄物管理功能的這個砂石戰場的俗稱那也就是雖然沒有合法登記但確實真實存在在民間的這個中心處理這些廢棄物的中心那你知道他們處理量是多少嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10276.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10294.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
他們的處理量是因為有些他是沒有申報的項目不過因為這些沙災戰場目前已經在轉型中了在新北上就土地化了我給你看一下結論這些沒有受到監管的這個戰災場當然跟所有的我們的包含環境部經濟部跟其他主管機關有關當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10297.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10315.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這些地方是沒有廢棄物的統計真實的數字啊但是從媒體的追蹤報導我們可以看到這有追蹤報導跟這個新北市站場的這個同業工會理事長他們去稍微計算一下單單新北市一年進到這個站宅場的這個營建廢棄物規模就高達126萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10318.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10336.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
對吧?那如何計算出來的呢?這上面我帶給你看一下喔。新北大概之前約有68家啦,這個站在場。每天平均收到的這個約25台,載滿約4立方公尺的從裝潢啦,從營建工程產出的廢棄物。 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10337.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10357.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那一天最少產生6800立方公尺的廢棄物那如果用廢棄物平均密度大概0.52噸每立方公尺換算成重量的話一年就是有126萬噸那約是官方統計全台216萬噸的六成那這也是他們去估算的那部長你覺得這些處理的廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10359.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10387.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
的量是不是佔比很高?這些沒有統計到的是不是佔比很高?根委員報告那就是因為這個沙子戰場其實它有來自於我們剛剛講過的裝修的還有我們來自於事業那來自於裝修因為它從產線就沒辦法掌握所以現在我們利用一個這個這個產線證明文件而且有建立平台的方式那同時把這個沙子戰場呢建立合法化讓它土地合法化它現在在申請這個處理機構在內我知道所以我要告訴你也是說這些統計是沒有有效追蹤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10388.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10400.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
現在看到這個加起來非常驚人如果光是台中加上新北的239萬公噸它就大於剛剛我說的官方統計的這是一個很大的問題對這個是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10404.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10405.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
而且再來我們看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10425.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10453.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
根據經濟部統計這個是經濟部統計的數量來說他說每年臺灣營建廢棄物的產出高達7000萬噸欸這跟剛剛的數字又差異非常的大這跟環境部自己統計的數量落差非常大喔所以顯見這個是不是沒有對此掌握沒有相當的足夠是各位報告那因為他有這個剩餘土石方然後另外就是有混合物那剩餘土方因為我們把它當成天然的一個砂石 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10454.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10460.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以由這個國土署他他會來有一個地方這個自治條例方式好去讓進入土資廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10461.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10484.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
所以你沒有跟經濟部溝通過他這個數字是怎麼算出來的?內政部國土署但是這裡是循環經濟推動辦公室經濟部轄下的單位他寫出來的在他的網站上那應該是我們的辦公室有匯整各部會的那個廢棄物的一個統計數字那營建的方式內政部署管可能那我可以請你們再去把這個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10485.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10512.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
跟跨單位的去好好的瞭解清楚究竟是多少嗎?因為這裡寫出7000萬公噸然後剛剛所有的官方數據是兜不起來的。細節的部分你可以拜託追根究底嗎?因為剛好說要有效的追蹤對吧?對對對。因為攝影廚房其他的量非常大大概6000萬噸那營建混互是這個比較少少了很多。嗯。所以說大概那等於是你覺得大約有1000萬公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10515.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10523.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
幾百萬的那跟現在的數據還是有很大的差異所以要拜託你們可不可以去瞭解完之後給本席一份報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10525.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10548.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
因為這個數據讓人覺得很恐怖,因為7000萬公噸裡面即便只要有一層的業者亂處理的話就有700萬公噸所以吳怪乎這個媒體就報導在光是台61線的台中彰化雲林跟嘉義段周邊的地區就有超過300個棄置點所以這是本席很擔心的這個黑數的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10548.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10558.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那其中還有高達65%是位於農業跟養殖用地然後我自己統計了一下今年被查獲亂到且有上新聞的就有像下表這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10560.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10585.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
就已經在15件吧?部長總不可能把這個查或當成是績效我跟前幾個禮拜還在跟保七總隊總隊長見面我們要加強查締所以這是也是績效之一啦真的我們加強查締我們兩個部會合作檢警調環密切合作好這部分我們期待就是部長到時候因為我這裡有整理了一下剛剛所說的所有的架構喔您看一下這個圖喔其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10587.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10612.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
可能造成營建廢棄物被亂倒的結構圖表裡面目前當然剛剛環境部你們有在講你有兩項政策一個是這個站宅廠的轉型成為這個營建廢棄物處理機構然後並且希望2026年可以全面落日轉型想要請問這進度有辦法達到嗎2026年現在正在跟這個環保局那一起來這個合作我們會來這個你覺得這進度可以達到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10615.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10636.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我們會努力來達到努力啦我真的努力啦因為這個其實有很多的面向要處理然後第二部分喔好那第二部分這部分希望你們可以盡全力來做這樣子的努力喔那第二部分是今年5月10號那個資源循環署上線了新的這個營建及廢棄這個裝潢廢棄物流向管理平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10637.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10665.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我剛剛還是一樣的問題你有辦法有效的掌握廢棄物的流向嗎?又能夠保證未來不會被作假至少在營建廢棄物上不再被亂清到嗎?是是那因為裝修廢棄物我們就是讓輕運業者他有一個這個產業證明文件我們在路上攔查用平台的方式那如果是說你在輕運業者沒有這個有一個後面的產生我們就可以來處罰他那這部分也不會去干擾到我們這個家戶因為家戶我們總不能讓家戶他還要去做申報 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10666.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10666.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
接下來請洪森翰委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10710.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10716.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
謝謝主席 那請彭部長 請彭部長 彭委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10718.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10742.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
部長好,部長今天因為我們要討論的主題是關於這個廢棄物來處理的主題這當然是環境部一個非常非常重要的業務其實也是影響很多一般的人他的生活非常非常巨大的這個業務其實我們在廢棄物處理裡面我們其實常常都會在很多新聞上面看到很多亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10743.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10770.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
包括很多這個違法的氣質啊倒在農田裡啊也包括剛剛廖委員講的這個新北的店舖的問題喔但沒有錯但是其實新北店舖一直以來一個很大的問題是因為地方政府對於合法的廠商跟合法的土地的取得其實不夠積極所以才會造成一個非常非常大的這個讓我們很多的業者走在一個合法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10771.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10796.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
跟非法之間模糊地帶的空間產生剛才這個巨大的掉落狀況甚至我們看到很多新北市的廢棄物接下來就沿著台61往中南部不斷的傾倒跟運送這是我之前一直追蹤的事情所以我說在廢棄物問題裡面我們會看到很多表層的現象可是實質上面真正根源的問題我覺得這是現在環境部必須來面對跟必須來解決的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10798.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10819.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
今天環境部接下來說我們要來開始來推動這個資源循環促進法我覺得這很好這尤其是他有一個二法合一的概念是把過去的廢棄物清理法跟資財法資源回收再利用法二法合一來去處理但我覺得還是必須先回到我們整體在廢棄物治理上面有幾個最大的根本的問題下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10822.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10851.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
以上這四個是我們現在來看臺灣廢棄物處理我覺得是非常非常根源的四個問題第一個目前我們來促進產源發展資源循環的模式的政策工具其實非常非常的不足我們雖然喊了循環經濟這樣子的政策的目標可是實際上面政策工具是不足的第二件事情是這邊應該是環境部不是環保署環境部和其他部會在廢棄物分工協調的界面不夠清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10852.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10881.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
第三個 廢棄物處理的量能不足包括後端去化的管道受阻 這大家談很多再來一個是再利用的產品確實現在很多是沒有市場的所以造成很多是假再利用真氣質的這個問題我認為這裡面是很多是我們現在看到表層問題以下實質發生的狀況實質發生的根源的問題會在這些地方所以如果我們現在來檢視接下來環境部想要推動的資源循環促進法 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10882.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10911.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
到底有沒有效到底規劃的好不好設計的好不好我認為重點就會是在這幾個最重要的問題上面有沒有拿得出具體的法規工具放到我們的資源循環促進法裡面來去克服這些問題所以部長我現在想跟你請教就你覺得以第一個我們談到資源循環模式的政策工具不足現在在我們的資源循環促進法裡面有哪些工具可以處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10912.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10927.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
報告委員其實我看了他們的法令132條初步的法令我們還沒有預告但是我是發現說第一個是非常難懂所以各個利害團體都有不一樣的聲音跟意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10928.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10947.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
所以其實目前而且我也問了署長說我們跟經濟部這邊怎麼分工其實過去還是環保署的這個思維那我的確很鼓勵我們同仁說我們應該環境部我們他們做的我們其實我們是政策主管機關我們應該扛下來所以其實我們鼓勵說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10949.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10967.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
雖然是機關選手但是我們做的應該是循環經濟的事情所以我們把我們的目標稍微擴大一點所以現在呢我的確是要他們能夠把這個所謂的不管這個行業所有的這個上下游的關係都要把它湊集在一起重新再看一次這個法令然後才能解決你說的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10967.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10994.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
部長你現在講的部分我有部分我同意當然可以跟部長繼續討論我認為環境部想要把這相關的工作一肩扛起來我認為這個想法是好的可是我覺得也必須看得到環境部在自己的部會權責上面還是恐怕會有自己遇到的局限這還是在部會權責上面切分上面遇到的局限所以我其實之前也一直跟賴署長強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10996.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11019.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我認為今天完全要單靠環境部自己一個部門尤其是接下來的這個資源循環署搞定這整個事情我認為難度是非常非常高的因為談到循環經濟沒有錯該做循環經濟可是你就是有很多工作你沒有辦法取代經濟部作為一個產業推動單位的角色啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11021.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11045.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
你就是很難取代內政部在建築業上面很多從一開始產業政策規劃的角色這件事情你就是需要他們大力的協助你雖然我知道部長可能是不希望環境部再像過去只是末端管制可是他們這些角色對不起環境部恐怕一時半刻之間就是很難直接的去取代所以環境部勢必 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11046.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11067.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
要去規劃出一個怎麼來去協調其他部會尤其是經濟部尤其是內政部包括農業部因為也包括農業廢棄物這幾個相關部會的合作工作的界面我覺得這件事情很重要當然我們現在在你們看到之前提出來的草案的版本裡面你們有把目的世界主管機關的權責有放到法規裡面這我們有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11068.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11086.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我覺得值得鼓勵可是工作協調的界面接下來我認為是這整套體系能不能運作起來的關鍵可是現在在法裡面有這樣的設計嗎部長目前是有的有那目前就是我們有一個是促進管理會那同時會有一個計畫那會報行人來核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11087.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11103.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以我會扛下來這個事情就是說委員提到的我非常的贊成蘇長蘇長我要說處理管理會當然有這個用意可是我們都知道處理管理會以處理管理會的設計跟組成其實大部分是希望能夠廣納各方面包括專家學者利害相關方的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11104.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11120.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
它的功能主要是廣納意見可是接下來你跟跨部會上面是有非常非常大量的工作協調你是需要很大量的幕僚能量這件事情反倒跟促進這個管理委員會的角色之間是不是這麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11121.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11147.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
一致我認為這事情環保環境部應該再回去討論因為這個委員會的做法是廣納意見廣納專業上面大家可以建議的idea這事情我不反對可是你實際上面是有一大堆的工作協調的事情這是為什麼我們之前有跟環境部提出我認為其實應該在這法裡面要有一個跨部會的協調的工作的辦公室或者是委員會是主要以執行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11148.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11167.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
實行跟協調任務為主的部分要有這樣的設計當然這也要其他部會願意同意可是我還是希望能夠把這個想法還是請彭部長再帶回去研議一個月的時間裡面因為這個界面是很複雜的之前為什麼我們有這麼多的工作做得坦白說我覺得這個做得並不好的原因我也不完全怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11168.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11171.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我現在說的是說我覺得應該在這法裡面把工作界面協調界面給規劃清楚我覺得這是整套體系能不能運轉出來關鍵部長沒有問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11188.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11191.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
最後我要跟部長提醒其實我們在這裡面還非常非常關注的一個問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11207.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11232.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
其實過去台灣一直以來有我們所謂的回收體系跟回收網絡照理來說回收體系跟回收網絡在城市裡面它扮演一個非常非常重要的角色其實它應該也是我們在資源循環上面的關鍵人物跟關鍵角色可是這幾年我們過去透過回收基金透過基管會的一些經濟模式的運轉是有一些突破可是這幾年我們也看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11233.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11259.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
運轉起來越來越辛苦所以我們有很多包括前面的再利用業者大盤商中盤商甚至到最基層的實荒實荒者其實在這幾年裡面工作都遇到非常非常大的困難生技上都遇到非常大的困難我這邊秀出這個照片這在我們城市裡面應該是常常看到的照片他們工作非常非常辛苦可是收入非常非常微薄我在這邊想跟部長提出一個邀請部長願不願意跟我一起去 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11260.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11288.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我們來體驗一下實荒之收者他們的工作他們的一天部長願不願意不願意一天啦但我們一起來體驗看看大家就知道從這些在城市裡面的實荒者的角度到底我們的回收相關的工作是怎麼運轉的到底遇到什麼問題遇到什麼困境為什麼他們離尊嚴勞動這麼遙遠部長可不可以嗎我願意而且我會帶我們的署長一起去參加機管會要一起喔大家都一起來齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11289.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11300.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我覺得我們要從基層的視角第一線的視角最底層的視角來看我們的回收體系到底出了什麼問題謝謝部長今天同意我們今天來規劃我們會來跟部長邀請謝謝沒問題謝謝好謝謝洪森翰委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11304.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11319.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
現在處理臨時提案總共一案請宣讀考量垃圾資源回收焚化廠營運階段提供回饋金要點為83年公告實施迄今已逾30年又各縣市焚化廠進廠費益逐年提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11320.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11347.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
顯見要點時有修正必要．已符合時宜．原件請環境部於3個月內會商相關單位及各縣市完成修訂該回饋要點提案人委員黃秀芳 王振旭 林月琴 廖偉祥宣讀完畢請問行政單位有沒有意見沒有意見沒有意見就照案通過臨時提案全部處理完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11354.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11373.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
接下來請林楚英委員、林楚英委員、林楚英委員不在接下來請羅廷偉委員、羅廷偉委員、羅廷偉委員不在接下來請何欣淳委員、何欣淳委員、何欣淳委員不在接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11373.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11389.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
接下來請謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員不在接下來請黃婕委員、黃婕委員、黃婕委員不在接下來請伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員不在接下來請游皓委員、游皓委員、游皓委員不在那先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11401.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11403.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
先休息五分鐘,喝個水。 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11423.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11424.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11444.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11465.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
議員會議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11475.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11481.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11710.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11711.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
好現在繼續開會請劉建國委員請劉建國委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11723.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11742.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
來有請部長請彭部長你看我沒有來部長很多就這麼少人在問你我也好那你就要擔心了謝謝好謝謝召我今天排這個專欄來報告來做討論那最主要就是廢棄物的暫存量逐年攀升 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11744.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11760.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
為什麼會逐年攀升：廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃我想新部長要有新氣象但是這個老問題也需要新部長用新的思維來做面對我這邊先請部長看這個照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11762.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11777.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這個叫白匯新粒環保局坦承支援回收進焚化爐網友探被糟蹋然後就主要是民眾在辛苦在家分裂結果到頭還是做白工他還是進到這個焚化爐另外還有2023市彰化縣的這個西州焚化爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11783.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11800.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
福大廠在做落地檢查﹖那就發現有一包含有這個滋收物﹖滋有回收物﹖達15件以上﹖或除以50%以上﹖他立即來將這個全車退回﹖重新分類﹖並寄聯要求清潔隊至福文化廠接受教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11802.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11829.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
公所的清潔隊不得不落實垃圾破帶檢查也因此這個去年的垃圾量減少到5000公噸以上那就相當於1000台以上的垃圾車的這個量那我是想說從2018一直到2023臺灣的這個整個回收的制度還是充滿著問題那這個問題我們就要面對不然再看一個這個表格這是近6年 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11830.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11836.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
近6年的臺灣整個生產的一般加護的垃圾量平均還在400多萬公噸左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11840.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11855.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我們看這個表格是紅色的數字這個基本上除了110年降到389萬多那其他平均都在400多甚至到112年已經來到480幾萬然後你再看這6年的資源垃圾的成長從107年480幾一直到現在已經來到了620幾萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11870.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11890.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
解決高升我不曉得臺灣人民很努力的在配合政策然後大家也都有資源回收分類的這樣的一個概念或經驗大家都在落實但是這個支出為什麼會解決上升然後一般垃圾的處理量也卻沒有降下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11892.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11918.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
報告委這個有幾個因素啦齁其實這個資源回收的增加最主要就是說我們的網購盛行之後有很多的這個大型的這個這個箱子等等這個進入到這個回收這個是真的成長的非常非常的多那另外一個呢就是我們剛有提到的就是算法例如說我們現在把很多的這個例行性的非例行性排除的垃圾把它算進去所以有幾年的確是在升高當中啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11918.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11944.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以這個其實是例如說我舉例像這個燒金紙燒金紙在我們的這個裡面有4點多趴我們以前都不會算在這裡面現在算進去因為集中燒金紙我們推行這個政策降低空污那甚至還有一個大型活動的這個垃圾也會進來所以也讓整個垃圾量突然逐漸的一個增高當然目前最主要還是國內因為疫情國內人這個國人生活型態的改變外食比例也變多 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11945.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11964.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
OK外資比例偏多去增加這個量我可以我倒可以接受但是你想說燒金紙這4%算進去這裡面對對現在的算法就是112年之後這個跳高的原因就是說包含燒金紙或是大型活動或是工程美化災害等等全部都要我們算法我們算的也比以前精準了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11965.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11981.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
是112年才算進去?112年算但之前107年的話是又把這個所謂的員工一般的公司的員工攀升的廢棄物也算進來所以這個以前是沒有算得那麼好啦我們現在全部一個一個都當成是一般廢棄物所以這個數據就會往上走 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11984.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11996.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
部長你的意思是說113年把這個邵俊德4%順進去還有其他最多的還是大型活動大型活動以前大型活動就當成是事業廢棄物在處理現在把它歸類於一般廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11999.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12013.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
但如果這樣對照前一年來講也也也只不過增加多少827扣掉799對所有多少33萬噸33萬噸對啊對對我覺得應該不是這樣比例吧就是111年開始是有把那個開始放進去啦114我說錯了111年 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12021.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12039.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那這樣我就要看你們的細項了你這樣講我覺得有點奇怪我覺得這樣這個統計數據它的來源好像不是不是很精準那這樣這個源頭的一個處理的情況就這麼不精準難怪你這個相關的數量會節節的攀升啊而且會居高不下 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12039.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12064.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
以前的算法的確是籠統就是從源頭這樣分類多少現在是項目項目都有了那我就麻煩新部長道論是不是把你們的什麼計算方式重新定義清楚換得定清楚然後讓我們做參考好不好沒問題我們到時候就可以做這個相關比較嘛但是另外有一點就是地方的環保局會不會只挑這個高價的吃蔬物再利用處理嘛那其他的低價的吃蔬物也因為處理麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12067.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12083.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
沒有任何價值,像餐盒之類的還是即便民眾分裂之後,最後還是盡到文化的意圖,會不會這樣?餐具類的我們是有補貼,我們還是會去督導說有些地方青年隊,因為他有時候飆售他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12084.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12084.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
有些是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12102.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12121.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好 那我們這邊會來這個來這個輔導你們怎麼好意思回答我說有些就是這樣那這樣你叫你叫百姓去陪你們做資源回收到底是什麼你最終還是到婚禮去啊的確是少數啦 那我們沒有你的少數是幾趴沒有沒有沒有 書長講清楚你的少數是幾趴你的少數是幾趴 講清楚是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12123.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12149.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我相信你們相關有統計的數據你讓我們知道如果資源回收是這樣再做處理那你這個政策顯然還有執行力確實是很大的問題存在的因為有些地方的青葉隊他有時候我們還是需要去輔導他然後才能夠完全按照我們的方式來做台灣的資源回收已經做幾年了我們到現在還用輔導這兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12151.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12168.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這不對吧?你今天不落入針對整個你要進場的這些垃圾 迫待檢查 如果查到說你的失蹤物已經高過多少或怎麼樣全部就是退回 然後還要祭典 然後還到那個地方去做教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12169.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12185.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
你只要你只要強硬起來的情況之下他可以馬上一年的幾乎可以減少減少到5000噸然後相當於1000台我剛剛開場白就講這些話了但如果你現在把他視而不見他用輔導的方式去做處理這麼軟性的的手段在做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12186.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12211.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那你當然會高居不下啊你當然站不下來啊這個也是原因之一啊絕對不是成為部長你現在接受到的訊息這樣而已嘛我覺得這大大有問題勒我們台灣跟人家講說我們的自由回收做了多進步啊怎麼會人民百姓配合的情況之下你把這些東西因為它低價所以你沒辦法處理所以你現在用輔導的方式欸這沒道理勒你講這個不通吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12214.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12227.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
報告委員這個數據上我會在來跟我們同仁一起來把它一個一個把它算清楚好不好請部長不斷慎重面對這個事情看怎樣處理另外就是說部長也有講過環境部要來做數位轉型這個我絕對700%支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12229.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12254.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
就像這種製作物被丟進戶外的老問題有沒有辦法透過AI的科技來做怎樣處理我為什麼會這麼講這個是新北它最厲害它現在已經有的第一台AI的這個手臂快速分類回收物它的精確識別紙類的紙容器的塑膠體力罐等17類的製作物省去人工分選的人力而且快速的把這個製作物挑選出來為什麼只有他們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12258.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12258.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12260.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12289.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
報告委員,委員所指導的這一個部分其實在宜蘭、新北跟現在嘉義我們都在試辦就是說剛才委員特別提到就是說近文化場其實那些支收物15件以上等等這個制度現在全國其實都有這個制度那為了更瞭解它的熱值跟辨別支收所以有這一個試辦計畫正在進行那如果它現在辨識率大概80%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12290.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12307.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
大概還要兩年的一個訓練如果成功的話我們會推廣到所有文化場以上為什麼先選擇這三個縣市新北、嘉義還有宜蘭嘛對不對是的他們這三個縣市的製作物就是像我講的就是非常不落實通常建文化路所以優先他們選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12308.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12332.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
不是因為它畢竟是一個做錯事反而先有AI的東西可以使用沒有沒有他們的分類非常好而且很積極然後願意跟我們來合作這件事情畢竟它是一個新的技術所以這三個縣市就是因為分類特別好很積極沒有成如剛才署長所講的這個狀況持續發生所以我們有AI新的這樣的一個技術所必就讓他們可以來先行試用試辦以之獎勵嘛應該是這麼講嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12335.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12337.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
這一個制度其實以往是用牧師的檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12361.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12379.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那我們是希望他以前叫做抽查嘛現在希望能夠普查如果有AI技術他就可以普查是這個意思你沒有回答我問題嘛這三個縣市是就是做得不錯所以我們在事辦就優先讓他們有這個AI的技術所必來做篩選嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12380.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12408.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
應該我們就是用這樣鼓勵我覺得我覺得不為過啦我覺得不為過喔因為你不可能因為在事辦的過程裡面你不可能一次全國全國22個縣市都來做這個事情嘛所以你當然會選擇就是說你跟跟我們這個政策比較落實去執行的跟中央比較配合的然後也做比較淋漓盡致的我當然有這樣的先進的這個AI的這個篩選的手臂來讓你優先事辦OK啊減少你們的人力嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12409.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12430.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
但是相對的我要表達就是相對的其他的18個縣市到底是出了什麼狀況18個縣市在廢棄物的進場上面也沒有出特別的狀況其實剛才委員第一句話就已經講了尤其是彰化那個案例那個案例其實是全國都有訂定進場的允售標準所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12430.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12451.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
很多人在講究說垃圾這個資收物會進到文化廠這件事情而實際上文化廠如果發現有資收物進入他就有那一套機制在做那所以我們是覺得這個部分可能還要再釐清啦那個文化廠這套制度我們覺得做得還不錯而且我們有垃圾的一個檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12453.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12469.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我覺得是這樣,要怎麼去釐清,問署長就清楚了嘛,因為署長剛才就已經打呼我,他有掌握嘛,確實很多有這個狀況發生嘛,只不過是不是有沒有很精細的去掌握他的狀況到底是什麼樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12471.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12492.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
所以 署長剛剛你要提出來的問題署長剛剛已經答覆你的所以我現在我要具體這樣要求請部長待會研究好不好一個月來提出這相關報告第一個就針對全國各縣市的垃圾婚禮事件回收是否有落實執行進行一個大盤點那到底有多少資收物被送進葡萄園 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12492.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12521.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我覺得我們有責任要去做掌握啦這個報告是不是可以一個月給委員會來做參考這第一個第二個就是說針對這個輔助的回收還有這個分選等AI的智能相關技術進行相關預算的評估啦就像你們現在已經做這樣的一個處理嘛那是不是可以普及嘛但是我知道他還是要test一段時間差不多多久你的預算規模要到多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12523.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12547.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
如果大家來面對這個事情大家都覺得是認可的我相信委員會也會去支持你們嘛但是可能是不是要讓我們知道你們的評估方式還有評估這個預算的規模達到什麼樣的程度還有他的精準你說到保温 剛才次長師說講到80%嘛是不是可以有效再提升的這個情況的相關報告也可以給委員會來做倡導可以吧 可以可以好 謝謝部長 謝謝委員 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12549.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12572.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
好謝謝劉建國委員的發言接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接下來請陳冠廷委員發言我們請環境部部長請彭部長這位好 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12577.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12591.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
部長好,部長我之前我們在路上僑月的時候我就有提到說我們針對這一個快時尚的部分要來做討論那在前部長的時候我們有提到說這個紡織品循環指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12594.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12621.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
但是我發現到這個指引是採取自願性協議的模式然後給予標誌部長目前環境部針對紡織品的這個循環指引有沒有任何制度化的經濟層面的誘因像是像是怎麼講企業減稅啊或者是抵碳稅啊等等的折扣額度啊或者只是單純的用認證的標章模式啊如果只是用認證的標章模式你覺得這有足夠來吸引消費者嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12622.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12648.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
報告委員其實目前才剛開始所以我們其實是目前只有把建立這個商業模式一開始為主所以我們要了解一下這個情形所以未來應該是會跟採購端跟供應商我們建立一個媒合平台但是這個其實也必須說也要跟國人再教育因為有些的業像我自己買有時候鞋子他告訴我們鞋底磨破了我要去換那有些業者就說不換 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12649.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12674.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
叫我買一個新的那我就從此不會去那一家買鞋子其實這個要需要我們彼此觀念的要能夠提倡起來謝謝部長那我這邊有個建議我是建議說包含這個環境部的網站是不是能夠公開正面列表符合我們這個指引的業者或者是品牌名單我認為這對業者來說也是一個加分他們說他們完成了這件事情環境部有做這樣子的揭示 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12674.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12688.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那這種正面的揭示對於業者自己本身的品牌形象或者是反映給消費者消費者也會有知道說我未來針對我所認同的我的價值觀特別是跟環境相關的話讓他知道是去哪裡消費這個部分可不可以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12689.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12715.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
部長或者是部內來協助一下好謝謝委員這個現在因為只有3家3家品牌3家百貨所以我們應該會來考慮來做這個事情而且要大力的表揚我們會成立一個大聯盟把這些業者能夠去Promote他們的產品這個Promote他們的這個樣態非常好希望是未來當然是一定不會只有3家當我們有這樣的機制出現之後當這樣子的消費指引會成為新的常態之後會有更多的消費者去 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12716.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12732.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
去查詢我們環境部相關的網站這個到底有沒有符合就像飯店一樣現在有許多的飯店新級的飯店那他都會有特別標誌在他們的路口的明顯處他們有符合環境部的哪些指引是金職獎銀職獎還是銅職獎等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12735.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12752.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
對於對這個議題有認可的人他就會請下去那邊消費所以就是雙贏的機制就會產生出來那我們希望未來紡織品當然更要這樣子那部長在你們今年年初那你們有提供機關跟公民營單位服事紡織品的循環採購指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12753.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12778.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那有符合的業者或者是品牌名單我認為各單位採購的時候也可以更有方向那也鼓勵業者去投入這樣子的產業鏈所以相關的加分的機制等等的公營單位的話我需要有跨部會的討論有一個平台來講那這樣子對這不要是只作為一個部門就環境部只講環境部經濟部講經濟部國防部講國防部外交部講外交部其實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12779.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12798.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
各個不同的部門行政的各個不同的這個部會都是一體的那有這樣的價值觀要把它協調起來那當然是更有幫助那還有另外一個方式齁就是每一個紡織品都要好幾個側標籤那我們能不能夠請業者主動揭露是否符合這個指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12802.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12829.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
因為我們這個指引還有平台那個平台大概是7月來成立那我想這部分我們可以在那個平台來提出來所以有認可我們這樣子的呼籲跟這樣子的倡議嗎?其實這個我有買過一些東西有些業者他都會自己來做那我們未來推動做法上也可能也會鼓勵有這樣的做法除了我們官方可以鼓勵之外鼓勵業者也可以有把這個logo或是相關的把它附上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12830.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12844.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
對,如果有經過我們官方認可的這個Logo才可以放上去,這樣子是有序時尚標示好,非常好那最後就是關於就業回收箱那113年的回收量的目標是10%明年是15%那應該沒有問題吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12850.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12871.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
因為我看到一些快時商業者會在店鋪裡面他會提供就衣的回收箱但是如果沒有獎勵消費者比較難為了就衣回收特別開車到店鋪回收衣物是不是有可能串聯業者提供衣物的回收兌換現金或者是其他的超商折扣獎勵這樣子的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12872.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12885.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
讓這個就醫的使用歷程能夠延長降低環境的負擔這樣的可能性有沒有啊部長這個我們會努力來嘗試看看跟這個業者來討論看看因為我們環境部過去有些措施有過這樣的經驗我們可以來努力一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12886.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12913.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
大家好謝謝部長我最後再看一下你們自己的這個資料嘛那紡織品的部分12年的目標是5%那13年的目標是10%1415 19年的目標是27%那我還是希望目標提出來我們就把它達成那剛才提中的這些建議有些東西是只要三五分鐘就能夠執行完畢特別是說把它放在我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12914.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12915.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
謝謝陳冠廷委員的發言接下來請林俊憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12950.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12953.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
謝主席本席邀請我們環境部彭部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12956.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12976.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
好部長好部長一件事情跟你反映像石棉瓦這種建材它的粉塵有致癌的危險現在清理量統計出來全國最多在台南石棉瓦烏瓦全國有大概23%在台南市統計起來有54900多棟 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12980.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12984.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這房子的數目啦占全國的總量大概20%啦占全國的總屋數大概23%那現在啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12992.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13013.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我們環境部有在補助就是說大家要把這個東西給拆掉但是你補助的申請資格大概只分三類就是你要個人住家或者是農業等等設施、寺廟、教堂等等但是這五萬四千都動不是全部都在這三類裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13015.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13039.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那其他沒有在你補助範圍內的誰沒有啊你要叫人家自己拆啊通常啊你沒有給他補助那失去原來你補助的意義你既然要補助了為什麼不全數補助呢所以我們希望我們環境部是不是可以來協助你既然已經有補助的標準和對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13041.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13070.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
為什麼要再區分呢例如有些很多農會很多農會他的房舍其實因為臺南三十幾個農會很多房子都是日本時代下來的早期下來的那時候根本也不知道他的可怕那你既然要補助拆除那是不是可以議題適用全部都予以補助這兩個部長給你當參考好委員這個我們研議一下好不好因為這個拆除的部分還是要看說他這個屋主另外拆除的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13071.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13097.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
有些也是國土署他們的這個範疇那環境部這邊呢我們的主責是處理把這個物品可以妥善處理好所以我們是去爭取經費把這個民眾來這個做處理對那你既然有這個辦法就是你希望不要再有這種東西的存在嘛是 對不對那你現在補助就補助一部分的範圍那其他的他失去一個動力動機嘛或者是說他自己花錢你就沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13099.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13099.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這農民吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13113.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13115.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
災種東西都用那種籠膜,我對你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13115.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13135.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我知道我用一個圖啦,我們在種鳳梨,你知道鳳梨,用鳳梨那個圖來看一下鳳梨田啦,其實不只種鳳梨啦,農民在很多的災種上,農地他都會用這種籠膜給他包起來我舉例子,像我們台南很多種種鳳梨,一定都要用這個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13137.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13164.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
然後呢現在這種籠膜很難處理啦因為農民要自己處理啦清潔隊也不收啦因為它不是法定的回收物啊那業者回收意願也很低啦根本不要啊那農民怎麼辦很多就把它繳稅啦耕耘機把它繳稅留在田地裡面啊那就影響到第一個你有些植物的根等於在土裡面有這些塑膠的碎片啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13165.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13174.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以這種農謀我們要怎麼來處理?這個非常普遍,很多農地都有這種狀況農糧署合作他們會補助農民可以回收農謀的機器或說我要去把農謀佔置,把它去土的一些設施因為現在農民 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13188.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13195.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
對,現在農民都自己用很不環保的方式嘛是阿嬤頭小的啦,他們說阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿� |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13217.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13227.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
收這種濃縮的機器嗎?現在有開始補助嗎?那我們廢棄物清理法是不是應該要公告啊?這種東西要不要回收? |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13229 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13255.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
因為這種東西齁地方這種處理以後地方這種回收地方這種負責處理嗎?是不是這樣子?因為這個是這個我們的產業廢棄物啦那所以收了之後呢由這個就是他會送到那個塑料廠去做載入如果說他把這個土都去掉之後不是因為有一個叫做公告因回收廢棄物嘛我覺得應該要把籠膜給納進來就等於你要強制回收啦這個你們是不是應該做這樣的一個考慮? |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13257.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13286.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
主要是說因為它的數量少啦那其實如果是把這個土去掉之後也可以是因為以前沒有回收你覺得數量少啦農田正常的大家也贏到對不對數量怎麼會少好不好因為一年現在是7000噸啦可能委員說的可能是40有可能更多啦對因為你覺得沒回收啊所以都沒錢沒用沒辦法自己收啊你現在如果公告強制回收的話那可能數量一定會比你現在看到的還要更多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13286.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13287.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
接下來請陳穎委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13325.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13334.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
麻煩請部長,謝謝請彭部長總委員好部長好我們這一次討論的這個議題是有關於這個垃圾佔據場的問題可能也是過去部長比較不熟悉的領域那這個議題呢過去本席曾經質詢過但是我發現就是說其實這個問題的本質 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13352.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13381.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
其實是在於經濟而不是戰志的問題所以我們接下來有幾個問題要跟部長請教就是說台灣目前的焚化爐跟公有的公有的跟BOT私有的各有多少座目前是24加5好謝謝那在這個處理垃圾焚化還有失業廢棄物的費用是不是比較高失業廢棄物比較高對大概一噸大概一萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13383.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13389.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
一頓到一萬塊錢,那家用呢?家用三千塊,隨代徵收等等的一萬塊錢是哪幾家? |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13399.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13414.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
一萬塊進到哪裡的進我們焚化爐的話就是那個市費大概是就是青藥業者他跟這個這個業者來說大概一萬塊上下因為他沒有一個range嗎?每個都你說大概都一萬塊因為我們我們焚化廠就是有一個進場的那個收費標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13415.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13437.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那一般市費的話可能大概是六七千塊左右那清楚因為我去看因為有分工有跟民營當然民營會比較高所以我們目前看到數據大概像這個簡報上面大概兩千多到七千五左右那一萬塊錢我也蠻好奇想看看瞭解一下看是哪些那 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13439.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13465.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那就是一樣就是說既然這個事業廢棄物的費用這個燃粉燒的費用是比較高那這樣一樣都是在燒垃圾是不是會有這個先燒收費高的事業廢棄物而不是以這個家庭民生廢棄物為優先所以有些這個家用的燒不完只好先放置會不會有這樣的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13466.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13473.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
委員基本上這個是不會發生的因為我們有一個比例正在進行當中正在進行但是不是已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13475.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13500.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
就是其實就是簽合約就有在這樣的在進行當中但是並不是全面全面都是這個樣子嗎對對對所以所以今天我才會特別提出這個問題那我們先就是拋出這樣的一個概念這是很正常嗎大家就是收費希望賺錢嗎對啊有錢賺我就先做啊那所以以這個竹北BOO為例新竹縣每天產生的這個290噸的家用垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13504.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13527.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這個焚化爐呢只願意收費然後燒250噸那當然就是說私有焚化爐基於這個成本的效益呢當然會優先消化掉事業廢棄物那也會義務性的保留一定的額度給地方的政府那問題是說源頭的垃圾減費如果做不好所以這個家庭的這個垃圾量有增無減嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13528.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13534.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那燒不完的只好就先暫時放置了就暫置起來就不會演出 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13536.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13537.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
因為公有的焚化爐萬一 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13559.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13561.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們都有簽合約做規範所以基本上他要以我們的這個家用垃圾為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13581.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13599.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
好那你要確定都有落實才是因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責那你們有沒有每年去補助這個維運的這個費用還是就是說只有補助興建的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13600.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13615.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
目前只有新建的費用,沒有是地方負責的那你們對於這個目前我們國家現有的焚化爐的處理量有全部都盤點過吧目前有,就等於說到116年的話會到700萬噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13622.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13635.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
這樣子夠不夠處理所有產生的家庭跟事業廢棄物?因為我們過去老舊已經比較久了。現在是不足吧?現在是不足。那未來如果到700萬噸的話應該就可以夠了。所以你是說預計是? |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13644.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13660 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
116年底會到700那現在大概是680左右那個前提是如果都興建順利的話對興建順利的話然後每年大概會餘裕大概多幾十萬噸那就會把我們現在的這個野賣場的部分拿來去除 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13662.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13685.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
目前家庭與事業廢棄物收費標準是全國都一致?不一樣,因為那個是地方環保局他們在訂定這個標準,不是中央訂的。環境部你們能夠影響這個收費的標準嗎?應該是不行,因為那個是屬於地方環保局的事務。 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13686.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13697.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我是說你們有沒有方法可以影響這個收費標準有沒有可能去減少這個兩者的差距我講的是失業廢棄物跟家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13698.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13718.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
法規上可能制定上可能有一些就會讓這個經濟誘因可能就會跑出來你說沒有辦法我就要對你很失望了啊因為你是部長啊怎麼會沒有辦法這個上有政策下有對策那個有時候方法方法是人想出來的規矩法規是人定出來的嘛你要有棍子跟蘿蔔啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13720.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13739.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
所以我剛剛這邊這個問題這樣設計問你是你很聰明你剛剛都已經知道這個賺錢這個誘因了嘛那所以我才說那你有沒有辦法有什麼樣的方法你可以去減少這個兩者收費的差距啊好這個我去想看看好不好給我一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13740.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13754.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我一定會給你時間,這個要算清楚啊,方法也要想清楚啊因為我是對你很有信心,因為你那麼聰明謝謝委員,不敢不敢,謝謝謝謝還有這麼能力這麼好的兩位署長在旁邊幫忙我今天有在你額外,嚴署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13757.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13770.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
雖然你沒有穿粉紅色但是灰色跟粉紅色色系是一起搭的起來的那粉化爐呢這個處理的量能不足到底目前這樣是你覺得是什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13771.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13787.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
目前因為是整改嘛,過去這幾年老舊了,現在整改後在未來這三五年如果真的可以上來之後,這個問題應該可以進一步解決所以有沒有這個分布不均還是說不足的問題的確有幾個縣市是還沒有焚化爐的目前還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13789.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13813.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
南投是沒有嗎?那上次還在拜託臺東可不可以收他們垃圾呢?對對對所以就是未來我們會不會再興建就是如果按照您剛剛有提到應該是還要再興建新的粉化爐希望每個縣市都有自己的可以自己處理的粉化爐因為現在其實地方環保局要幫別人收有時候遇到緊張的時候像最近臺東跟高雄就是有這樣的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13815.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13837.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
那因為過去我舉過這個德國的案例那現在的技術燃燒出來的廢棄呢早已經就是遠低於這個排放標準了那很多的焚化爐有很多就是可以有多重的用途例如說發電啊溫泉啊還有這個旅遊跟環境教育但是我們為什麼每次在興建 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13838.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13841.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
對於這個溝通宣導的計劃有什麼樣的一個推動所以我想說部長你有沒有覺得說我們應該針對就是說未來這個宣導正確觀念的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13867.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13870.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
這個計畫應該要好好的推廣一下不知道你們有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13871.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13899.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
已經有想到一些方式?其實現在我們有些焚化廠已經是環境教育的場所這個應該再多一點那我也跟委員報告我曾經有靠到國外一些游泳池或是MOB旁邊就是焚化爐而且在都市裡面我覺得很不可思議在台灣一定是嫌惡設施但是在英國等等他們就有這樣的做法所以我希望說跟委員報告我還沒有真的到過焚化爐看過等我一點點時間我去過SRF廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13901.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13916.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
但是彭樺如還沒有時間去看等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出想法我覺得你去其實剛剛重點是那個民眾對於這個刻板印象的一個改觀所以這個部分我想說為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13919.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13933.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
為了你未來這個遠大的計畫你一定要好好先讓大家扭轉大家的刻板印象我覺得這個是你所有這個新建未來要推動什麼計畫一切的一切的這個最優先要做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13934.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13955.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
好就做這樣的提醒所以最後還是要回到說問題的本質當這個垃圾處理已經變成這個差別費率這個就是已經是一個經濟的問題啦那而不是說單純工程技術或者是政治的問題所以呢這個經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的所以要請部長要判斷經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13961.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13963.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那我大概就提出這樣子的建議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13982.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13986.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
給我一點點時間去思考如何進行因為30年前每當設置焚化廠跟掩埋廠的這些環保設施的時候環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾就是在抗爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14001.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14017.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
你們要積極主導各種溝通協調才有全國20多座大型垃圾焚花廠的完成其實過程是很辛苦的今天你們升格為環境部所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升該負擔的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14020.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14033.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
現在看起來地方政府好像都跑到那邊去那反觀就是說縣市的資源和人力還是跟30年前一樣他沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升啊所以結果就是我們現在垃圾擺出的垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14035.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14056.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
台灣到處都是那個垃圾山就是成為一個這個還蠻有趣的台灣新百月那那個南投雲林這些縣市的危機多年以後可能依然還是存在所以這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的那所以大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14058.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14080.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我是建議說你們應該多去了解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印親自下鄉去面對問題就如同部長都到現在都還沒有去看過這個焚化爐所以你也趕快安排一下而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告看數據寫方案計畫然後這個遙控這樣子就會弱掉了好沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14081.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14104.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
好,那與其每天你們發新聞稿呢到處說我去哪裡查緝到多少的非法棄置好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了,這樣是不夠的啦所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到就是說我們環境部告訴民眾說我們出了垃圾山我已經清理處理完畢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14106.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14124.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
然後而且也要認真探討原因因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了那你們現在發布的新聞稿公佈的違法案件還是不斷的在攀升我想這樣是有問題的所以真正找出這個問題來才是你們中央應該有的格局 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14129.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14145.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
好謝謝委員其實我們成為部之後人力跟預算沒有增加太多啦真的還很少啦所以也請問委員多支持但是整個整體人力沒有增加身上署長多了好幾位那個薪水也會變多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14146.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14148.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
謝謝陳銀委員的發言接下來請葉元之委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14183.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14185.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
我想請那個環境部部長請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14190.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14217.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
葉委員好部長好我們今天討論廢棄物問題因為其實我們新北市的廢棄物其實還蠻嚴重你對我們新北市不知道狀況了不了解因為你剛剛上任嘛我們有三座焚化廠你曉得它總共一天可以處理多少垃圾嗎我數字記不得啦但是我從小在開公路看到五穀山然後被整治我就很有感觸那個跟焚化爐沒關係我們焚化爐有三座巴黎新店 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14217.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14232.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
還有樹林那總共一天是處理2700噸那現在一個很大的問題就是說因為我新北市的垃圾的焚化毒的量他並不能夠處理全部新北市他所產生的生活垃圾跟事業廢棄物沒有辦法總共2700沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14234.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14262.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
現在光是清潔隊就2000噸一天要進2000噸只有700噸可以處理事業廢棄物所以這個事業廢棄的都要往外縣市去送我現在是希望說部長因為你們是中央你們比較知道各縣市的狀況應該要發揮協調的功能我現在舉一個我可以預測嚴重的問題就是明年巴黎的我們這邊巴黎的焚化爐就要整改那巴黎是我們新北市最大焚化爐它是一天要處理1200噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14263.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14286.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
換言之就是差不多近一半垃圾都是巴黎要處理那如果說由巴黎如果整個整改當然現在環保局的計畫是他要分機組嘛分年來整改可是他一定會遇到要整座停的狀況而且要停兩個月就會造成他可能有兩個月每天1200噸的垃圾沒辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14290.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14317.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
你知道那個嘉麗嘉麗不是之前有個焚化爐也在整改嗎你知道他怎麼處理沒辦法處理的垃圾嗎你知道怎麼處理嗎打包的啦打包對不對所以他打包他的垃圾就堆在那邊嘛他整改完之後再回焚化廠回焚化廠就如果說你的焚化廠平常都燒不完的話你打包的那些垃圾也消化不了啦我現在的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14318.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14346.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那中央要怎麼去協調這個問題比如說明年我們巴黎焚化廠要整改的話那這一天一天一千兩百噸的垃圾你可以協調就是其他縣市有餘裕的部分可以讓我們新北市的垃圾進去燒啊然後第二個是如果中央因為我看到你們有把各縣市整改的計畫都列出來嘛代表說你會有這個時程嘛我不知道說環境部在 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14347.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14369.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
協調這一塊有沒有做啦?因為你不能夠讓全臺灣很多縣市的焚化爐同時在整改包括這個我們都有跨縣市跨區域的我們環關署就是在協調不能夠讓所有的焚化爐同時整改否則的話那我剛講的那個有關於巴黎焚化廠如果要整改環境部這邊可以提供什麼協助嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14370.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14398.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
是報告委員這樣子齁那個我們跟新北市環保局其實很密切啦我本身也是從新北市巴黎廠廠長擔任過廠長的食物經驗齁在這個部分我們跟他協調有幾個路徑第一個當然是協調到其他縣市是最佳嘛或者哪些縣市現在現在還沒大概還沒阿什麼時候要協調什麼時候要協調他只要我們跟環保局再來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14400.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14412.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
署長那個以前我在新北市做議員我常常關心這個議題啦環保局給我答案我都不滿意啦你現在給我答案也是在敷衍了因為垃圾如果沒辦法處理的話影響到是我們社區的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14413.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14438.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
我們因為垃圾的問題現在我們像我是來自板橋啦很多大型的社區他們大部分都是找清運公司在收垃圾但是因為清運公司他的垃圾沒有辦法進到焚化爐裡面所以他要往外縣市送所以他成本就提高了還有他會放掉一些小的客戶所以導致於後來的客戶他的成本越來越高他要付的這個費用就越來越高所以每一個人都感覺垃圾費漲啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14440.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14457.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
每個人都感覺這個社會長那歸根清源就是焚化爐的量不夠所以我現在聽署長的態度就是空話你要怎麼解決這個問題你要怎麼協助還是你覺得這是地方環保局的事還是請部長回答這個我們會協調啦怎麼協調嘛因為這個已經很多年的問題了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14465.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14482.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
發委員那個剛才委員所擔心的這個垃圾我們這幾年來從來沒有一包垃圾是流落街頭的這個請委員報告費用就提高了嘛我剛講的不是只有垃圾流落街頭的問題第一個大家垃圾費就提高了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14483.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14506.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
然後很多社區因為他的本來找遷運公司然後垃圾費提高之後他就不找遷運公司他就改丟清潔隊然後清潔隊現在人力物力也不夠所以很多新型的社區希望垃圾車可以開到他的社區旁邊不願意開啊因為量能不夠啊所以你影響的不僅是一般的事業廢棄物你影響這社區的生活垃圾你也影響到一般的民眾啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14507.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14521.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
你現在只有告訴我說沒有流落街頭所以我就好棒棒可是我剛剛舉出來那些問題例如說他們在倒垃圾不方便倒垃圾的費用成本的增加這些你都沒有解決啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14523.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14543.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
所以我不知道說你們環境部你們對於垃圾這個問題KPI只要是路上看不到垃圾你就好棒棒是這個意思嗎各位報告當然這幾年我們是逐漸在推動一些設施因為我時間到了我希望說因為剛剛講的確實是很抽象 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14543.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14559.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
非常非常非常抽象可不可以請主席才示一下可不可以給我的問題非常具體好不好因為我們新北市就三座焚化爐巴黎焚化爐即將要整改而且現在也面臨到焚化爐不夠的問題請問一下中央怎麼協助地方來解決這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14560.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14576.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
你給我一個具體的方案好不好我拿著這個方案我去跟地方來討論我跟地方的協會來討論我跟地方的清潔隊社區來討論看有沒有可以在環境部這邊才可以幫忙的地方我不知道這樣可不可以可以可以沒問題那大概什麼時間可以給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14579.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14603.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
報告委員這個北北基桃他有聯防的一個機制在我們北北基桃一起討論之後再跟這個委員報告有機制就有我剛是把問題我很具體的問題講出來是你一直告訴我說你現行有機制現行做什麼但是就是有發生這些問題嘛我就覺得你做不夠嘛所以希望你解決我的問題嘛然後你一直告訴我說已經有機制了 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14604.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14626.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我希望你這份考卷可以考80分你說已經考10分了是不是考10分就夠了現在新的部長來新的新跡象希望新的部長提出新的方法嘛這樣有很要求 有很過分嗎委員我們會給你一個報告好不好我們協商一下我們這邊研究一下再給委員一個報告大概什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14627.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14628.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
請環境部一個月之內再把資料提供給業委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14644.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14662.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
謝謝葉元芝委員的發言那本日會議詢答全部結束委員楊耀、王育民、鍾嘉斌、屠權吉委員的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14662.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14675.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會 |