| IVOD_ID |
15987 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15987 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-05 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-05T10:13:18+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-05T13:18:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:04:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e558f108d180b0e1b475d7792c9d43a4f3be8d109af184be4f43eb4f40e496fb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-05T10:10:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第1次公聽會（事由：召開「財政收支劃分法修正草案」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:13:18 - 13:18:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
283.683 |
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285.549 |
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好 謝謝那我們會議準備開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
316.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
341.285 |
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好,我們現在公聽會正式開始首先歡迎今天蒞臨的所有學者專家包括我們的莊部長以及22縣市的代表包括財稅局的局長還有一些副市長、副縣長等等都蒞臨還有政府機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
342.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
367.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
來參加今天財政收支劃分法修正草案的公聽會介紹一下與會王宏威王委員紐許廷紐委員也是財政委員會昭偉郭國文郭昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
371.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
373.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
張綺楷 張委員介紹 臺北商業大學財政稅務系教授黃耀輝黃教授歡迎先稍後我等一下介紹稍後 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
393.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
421.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
介紹政治大學財政學系教授暨系主任陳國良接著也是我們立法院的前輩老同事也是在整個政治學術界非常榮盛的政治大學財政學系名譽教授曾俊威 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
422.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
452.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
曾教授、曾老師、曾委員介紹臺北大學公共行政暨政策學系教授 呂育成介紹成功大學法律學系副教授 陳文晶介紹國立臺灣大學經濟學系李顯峰副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
456.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
469.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
接著介紹 國立成功大學經濟學系 林長青 林教授國立成功大學經濟學系 蔡群立教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
477.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
500.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好 那我們現在開始公聽會每位發言8分鐘那結束前1分鐘會按鈴提醒原則上依專家學者之簽到順序來發言那這場的委員如果需要發言請到主席台前登記立委的部分每人大概5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
501.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
515.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
等全部發言完畢後請行政機關就業館全責整體回應現在請第一位學者專家黃耀輝發表意見兩邊的這個司令台都可以齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
531.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
555.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
謝謝趙委 各位委員 各位與會先進 大家早安時間有限 我就直接開始用PowerPoint跟各位做說明我的主題很簡單 就是財劃法的修正從解決垂直的失衡 把同層分配稅款做大開始後面的問題都可以迎刃而解 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
557.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
559.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
時間先等一下再開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
574.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
599.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我先講結論,因為結論比較重要從大歷史來看大數據所謂的大歷史就是我們在民國88年修憲、廢審然後也修了財劃法就造成了我們地方財政跟地方自治的災難也是我們財政上垂直失衡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
600.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
601.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
中央政府的淨收入佔比 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
623.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
641.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
從動審、廢審前不到60%暴增到第二年就增加到74%那25年加起來的話我看中央政府已經多拿了10兆我們來看下面這個表這個表呢如果用這個地方說明各位可以看到在這個紅線是顯示民國88年廢審前 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
651.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
660.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
在民國88年廢審之前我們看到中央政府在各級政府收入的佔比大概以前都在50幾%了不起來到62%所以你看那個動審前3年這個中央收入的佔比大概只有57% |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
671.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
671.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
687.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
690.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
竟然暴增到75%左右 從此中央集權以後造成垂直四橫的嚴重惡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
703.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
704.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
財政收支劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
733.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
734.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
745.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
745.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
772.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
772.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
財政收支劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
790.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
790.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
《統籌分配稅款》 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
815.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
833.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個餅做得不夠大 中央都拿走了那統籌分配稅款分配公式又搞了一國三制切割成持家式、縣式跟鄉鎮式那公式又三套很複雜很瑣碎所以就變成現在的那過去這幾年炒財化法一直炒每一次中央副爸爸 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
834.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
834.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
財政收支 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
854.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
862.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
修財劃法是賴總統曾經許下的諾言他在106年擔任行政院長的時候他主動講說隔年第二年我會提出財劃法修正財劃很可惜那時候107年民進黨地方選舉大敗他辭職下台不了了之後來前財政部長蘇建禄107年上任的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
882.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
907.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主動宣誓說﹖他的首要目標﹖要扛下歷任財政部長﹖不敢碰觸的財劃法﹖修法可是最後﹖第三年﹖他就說﹖這是零和﹖找到這個理由﹖就跳票林志堅﹖前新竹市長﹖他也曾經抱怨過﹖新竹縣市﹖科學園區那邊﹖貢獻的國稅很多﹖拿到了一點點稅款﹖所以他想透過升格為第七都﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
908.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
918.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個當然他是出於政治的考量要把它變成第7度他其實他凸顯的就是我們這個財劃法非常荒謬的地方就是我要靠升格為直轄市我才有錢那這個財劃法是顯然是很嚴重的問題那陳處理長呢他說是認為也建議早就該修財劃法了所以25年了財政部到現在還不打算修財政法實在是不可思議 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
935.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
935.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
財政轉型正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
954.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
978.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
大幅的扭轉垂直失衡的問題玩不錯記網希望父爸爸都拿出全部政府收入的15%還給地方政府統籌分配水管做大之後分配公視就很簡單了簡化不要搞一國三制然後平等站在每個國民他平均分配的金額在照顧一些貧窮的離島農業 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
981.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1004.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
現分讓他們多分一點然後另外一個就是補助款不能比現在少為什麼這樣講因為剛才這個表在主計總署這個表他說這個中央拿到75%這個收入他是已經扣掉了各級政府彼此間的補助跟協助的重複收支說意思就是說已經扣掉補助款之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1005.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1026.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
中央政府還佔了75%的收入所以財劃法修正的時候我們要提防中央政府就來一招說土中配方做大之後我就給你砍補助款就是一律不容許所以時間有限所以這個做大現在按照國民黨的版本我看過了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1028.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1047.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就增加比例來講,縣市政府增加是最多然後連那個臺東增加的比例最低也有增加到1.8倍那六度呢增加的平均不到一倍所以這個有平衡這個富都跟窮縣的差距問題就從增加的金額而言,離島縣增加最多那六度呢大多增加300億以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1048.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1058.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
從人均金額而言 新北市雖然人口最多 但是分配到每個人的金額是最少只有2.6萬 六都又低於16縣市 離島三縣最高所以六都的佔比 總收分配稅款從62%降到49% 16縣市就增加到40%這是改變我們現在城鄉差距 還有富都窮縣的問題另外一個部分就是特別貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1072.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1072.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
財政財政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1089.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1093.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
財政部指財化法修正是零和財政部指這是錯誤的觀念垂直平衡絕對不是零和對財政經濟的效益是很大的為什麼這樣講我們看到過去財政部8年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1107.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1112.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
佔盡了肥稅8年內超徵稅收1.8兆結果他就超花超花編了2.5兆的特別預算2.5兆的特別預算搞到最後還不是這樣舉債所以有錢他就把它花掉然後你看到今年5月10日國債中央每人負債27萬創歷史新高所以這就是道德危險錢很多放在政府那部門他就會想辦法把它花掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1132.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1135.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
國防外交的機密預算很難遷讀 把這個錢都花在國外所以如果我們財化法垂直失衡改善 把錢下放給地方政府就是留給國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1155.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1183.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
國內同胞來拼經濟對經濟的陳述效果來講是幫助很大總比把這個錢花在國防外交外國人手上去買武器就像副老闆中央去外交去搞交際應酬錢花不給窮子女來用所以簡單來講財劃法的修正如果改善了垂直失衡新利益又儲備效益其實是加一減一大於零是絕對不是零的所以最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1184.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1200.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
基於這個已經25年過了我們小孩啊地方政府啊25年了他還在穿很舊的衣服已經有六都了從一都二都變成現在六都還是穿舊的衣服父母爸爸你只能夠無動於衷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1201.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1206.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們看到國民黨跟民眾黨的版本都是鼓勵凶姊 想是六都讓利給弟弟妹妹的縣市看到他手足情深六都當中藍營執政的雙北、桃園和台中都同意讓利給那個把增加的額度優先分配給所得較低的石榴縣市請父爸爸的中央不要無動於衷先請藍白合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1227.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1236.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
幫我們賴總統對線他已經開過的支票也達成了民進黨的理想吧謝謝謝謝黃耀輝黃教授下一位請陳國良陳教授也是陳主任下一位王宏威請準備王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1255.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1282.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主席、各位委員、各位財政部的長官各位先學先進大家好我是政大財政系的陳國良今天很榮幸有這個機會參加第一場的公聽會時間非常的寶貴我謝謝民眾黨團的邀請謝謝委員會的邀請時間非常的寶貴我利用這短短幾分鐘的時間試著跟大家溝通強調一個觀念然後在修法上我有三點的提醒希望能夠引發一些作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1285.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1313.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那在觀念上面我要提的就是長久以來尤其在財政圈有兩個錯誤的觀念第一個觀念就會是其實地方政府不會珍惜財政資源那今天地方政府會有浪費會有過度擴張的情形那因此與其地方財政自主不如集權集權中央那第二個就會是財政收支劃分是一個零和賽局那A多分了B就會少分那既然是一個零和賽局對於整體經濟注意不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1314.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1314.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
財政收支劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1336.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1363.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
今天我如果能夠拉近增進資源的效率促進地方區域分配的公平整體社會福利就會提升所以今天我們在這裡修財政收支劃分法各位委員在做一件非常了不起的事情此外今天地方財政如果能夠自主的話也可以促進地方政府跟地方政府之間的相互競爭比照可以提升地方行政效率可以造成地方行政效率的創新 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1364.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1381.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
最後是地方財政自主﹐可以約束政府﹐避免政府透過公權力﹐透過剋稅﹐對於人民進行過多的財政剝削這是第一點我要講的﹐地方財政自主﹐是有它絕對跟根本的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1381.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1388.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
在修法上面我的三點提醒分別是一、不應該重套覆轍第二、讓凱撒的歸給凱撒第三、很多現在的爭執不必捨盡求遠、不必原木求魚 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1398.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1425.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
讓我以下分別就是就這三點略做論述首先在不應傳套覆轍這件事情上今天我們在這裡修財政收支劃分法原因就是因為我們知道我們現在財政收支劃分失靈這個主要的原因是什麼其實財劃法25年來沒有修正地方行政架構早已經改弦更張財劃法沒有做相對應的修正所以我要強調的就會是地方財政自主其實雙向的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1426.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1447.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那收支一定要並同考慮那如果我講財化法其實它是地制法的財政面向那這兩個法其實應該要考慮聯動修正那如果用一個人做比喻的話那財化法是管帳的手那地制法是做事的手那兩隻手如果不合作是成不了事情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1448.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1463.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那或許我可以用另外一個譬喻就是我們有財化法我們有地質法所以我們的財政分權其實是Tango那不應該玩一二三木頭人不能夠就是之前我們在修地質法的時候一二三財化法那現在我們在修財化法的時候一二三地質法 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1465.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1488.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
因此我們現在的討論是對的我們要做垂直的分配我們要把餅做大但是不能一味的把餅做大這個東西可能會有矯枉過正這樣的一個情形我建議就是第一點就是不應該重蹈覆轍我們應該要去檢討財政自主然後要認真嚴肅的檢討地方自治事項然後確實的去檢討事權所以這個是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1489.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1515.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那第二點就是我要提醒的就是凱撒的歸給凱撒那我們中央跟地方財源共享的方式有三個機制第一個是統籌分配稅款第二個是補助款第二個是就是共分第三個是共分機制那讓我用下面這張圖形來呈現這樣的一個關係就是我們現行中央跟地方財政的關係我們有一個很大的中央政府擁有非常充沛的財政資源我們有非常瘦弱的地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1517.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1536.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
財政資源是平級的我們透過共分稅、補助款、統籌分配稅款來對地方進行一些垂直的分配在這個情形大家可以看得到在這個垂直架構底下統籌分配稅款的規模是最大的現在我們的討論好像也是集中在統籌分配稅款再進一步的擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1537.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1565.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那我認為這樣子會讓這個垂直架構失衡那或許我們應該做的是在這裡我要提出來的就會是我們應該強調共分稅的機制所以讓我回到上一張投影片這裡在共分稅這裡啊其實它是概念就是把稅收徵起之後有一定的比例留在地方所以地方政府可以直接享有經營地方財政努力的成果統籌分稅款本來就是地方的課稅收入那現在從地方拿走了再來分為什麼不直接留在地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1566.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1581.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
OK 那我們目前只有遺產稅、贈與稅跟菸酒稅有共分的設計而且規模非常的小那我希望第二點提醒在這裡就是財化法的修法能夠強化國稅的共分機制把更多的所得稅跟遺業稅留在地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1582.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1582.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1598.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1621.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
OK 所以今天呢 最棘手的問題就是做大的餅該怎麼分因為我們至少要保證不能夠就比較小可是今天做大的餅該怎麼分呢那就是所謂的水平公平或是水平分配的問題那部裡面到目前為止部長對外的說法都會是要去尋求最大共識那我要強調的就會是沒有最大共識OK 所以讓我做一個譬語就是考試考100分 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1622.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1638.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
第二高是多少分?99分不對有99.5分99.5分是最高分也不是為什麼?因為有99.75分所以今天一旦有一個共識就有一個更大的共識那因此其實沒有最大共識所以我們今天在這裡討論最大共識都是空轉跟虛號是浪費時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1641.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1667.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那所以就是我不由得要去懷疑說其實最大共識尋求最大共識是不是其實是行政部門在凝聚內部的共識的一個說辭那希望就是在這個部分就是我們能夠放下所謂去尋求最大共識這樣的一個說法那其實我們要做的問題我們面對的問題並不是那麼的不可以處理如果透過我剛剛強調的第二點就是把一些做大的餅留在地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1667.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1693.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那我們要做的事情就會是那剩下來再怎麼分呢那我覺得就是該做的事情就會是我利用現在統籌分配稅款跟補助款的合計數在各個地方政府的分配情形當成基礎我們知道現在有30個40個50個指標那我覺得那些指標要達成一個所謂的共識是不可能的那何不我們就用現在統籌分配稅款跟補助款分配的情形當成討論的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1694.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1717.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我們可以設計權數我們知道統籌分配稅款有比較多是給直轄市補助款有比較多是給地方政府或許我們可以設一個權數如果我們認為一般縣市比較重要的話那我們把補助款的權數高一點如果我們認為離老重要的話我們也可以離老那個部分重一點為什麼我會有這樣一個想法的話其實在財政理論上有一個說法叫救稅及良稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1719.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1725.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
統籌分配稅款跟補助款這兩款目前分配的情形是長期以來我們社經發展跟政治運作底下的均衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1727.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1753.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
今天為什麼我們要放棄打破現在這個均衡所以我建議就是以現在分配的情形當成基礎來進行討論最後就是在舍健求穩、原木求魚這個部分長久以來統籌分配收款跟補助款都有所謂政治分配這樣的一個疑慮所以我建議立法院在這次修法的時候是不是可以考慮我們以後在分配上能夠有一個撥款委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1754.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1754.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
陳國良、陳教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1782.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1789.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
接著請王宏威、王委員五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1799.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1824.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
好謝謝主席我想先謝謝我們召委今天從我們的初步討論到現在召開的公聽會是希望這一次大家眾所矚目的財劃法能夠得到就是大家多討論一下尤其在前一個小時我是全場坐在這邊聽我們每一位縣市的代表來聽財劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1826.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1850.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
其實呢我聽完了之後我有幾個結論我想第一個結論是最重要的就是修正財劃法能夠增加這個地方的財政的收入就是從中央的統籌款能夠更多分一些到地方這個事實上是全部各縣市的一個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1851.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1877.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
不管你是藍白綠執政所以這個非常難得的是是一個藍白綠的共識而並不是大家說這個是只有藍白所提出來的一個法案那我們也都知道就是剛才特別都提到在精審之前我們的中央和地方財政基本上那個派那個大餅的分配是六四餅 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1878.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1881.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
但是經審之後到現在變成75%比25%當然這個趨勢充分的說明了也就是我們中央確實有特別的集錢也特別的集權這大家剛才也都說了就說這個數字會說話 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1899.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1901.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1915.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1915.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1937.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1939.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
應該是勢在必行只要我們願意去聆聽我們地方的意見就知道這是一個跨黨派大家的一個共識所以我剛才其實很同意我們新北市財政局長他的說法他有一句話我認為很正確 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1956.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1969.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
先求有再求好也就是說對於我們地方縣市來講我非常清楚知道我剛才聽得非常仔細即便是民進黨執政縣市的別提到了這個有關於是不是對農業土地未來有國土法的一個相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1978.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1992.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
或者是對於老年人口是不是也應該做一些來納入考量甚至我看到也有說你也要考慮到我們現在能源政策我們對於光電風電的一個貢獻我覺得這些都可以談但是它最大的前提就一定是地方政府要先求有再求好 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2003.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2023.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
也就是說如果我們不能夠從中央在整個的派裡面能夠合理的多分一些比例給地方縣市政府那麼大家剛才所講的各縣市政府你的考量事實上都是白說你沒有錢請問一下你要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2024.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2024.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
中央的態度是什麼呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2044.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2045.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
財政部只有三個字不要修 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2060.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2079.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
最主要的理由是什麼呢?他說因為經過統籌分配稅款啊經過我們的補助款啊我們地方財政通通改善了現在有好多的地方縣市政府代表請問一下你同意了嗎?你同意現在地方的財政通通改善了嗎?同意的請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2083.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
2095.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
你怎麼能同意這樣的話呢所以財政部告訴你我不用修啊他用各種理由告訴你就是呢哎呀你們財政都改善了因為我補助款給你啊我剛才講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
2098.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
2123.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
大家全部都仰中央鼻息啊所以我覺得在這一次地方的縣市政府一定要結合起來一定要促成財劃法的修正那麼只要中央的餅分配給地方夠多那麼大家每一個縣市我們事實上現在所提出來的黨團版 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
2125.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
2152.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
每一個縣市都會增加很重要每一個縣市都會增加如果你不修的話你就只好向中央求爺爺告奶奶就是向這個父爸爸要錢嘛他想多給你就多給你他不想多給你他就不要給你然後呢你可能每一次一般補助款啦這些特別補助款你就去求他們所以在這邊我真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
2154.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
2155.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
財政部來自於中央抗拒修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
2170.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
2172.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
謝謝 王宏威 王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
2202.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
2230.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
好 謝謝掌聲很多接著請曾鉅威政大財政學系名譽教授也是我們立法院的前輩委員需不需要來得及嗎我現在怕可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
2231.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
2233.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
請秘書人員協助一下謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
2262.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
2264.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
2285.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
2300.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
有關於修法時機的這個問題呢我特別提醒大家第一個就是我們在這兩年之內應該不會再有馬上有選舉所以這個很具有政治性的話題或許這是一個空檔的時間是我們可以好好來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
2302.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
2302.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
財政修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
2321.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
2348.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
其實我們趁這個機會可以好好的大家來做討論因為表示大家都有想法都有準備第三個就是目前的政治的狀況是國會三黨不過半那我們都知道財化法的修正大家都說它具有強烈的政治性所以不太容易能夠尋求到共識但是我們也發現一個歷史上所告訴我們的一個事實就是一個政黨基本上在野的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
2348.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
2376.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
他非常的強力主張要修《財劃法》但是當他執政了以後他的態度就會非常的保守基本上大概就不太願意輕易的去動這個《財劃法》的修正所以呢就表示在這種情況之下假設國會執政的時候通常是絕對多數的情況的話那各位就可以看得出來在野跟執政的時候的態度的不同讓這個《財劃法》其實是不太容易能夠修成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
2377.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
2397.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這一次因為國會的三黨不夠棒所以或許我們有一個新的契機的出現可以在大家都已經有了主張有了版本的以後在沒有選舉的情況下大家可以找到一個更好的修法的契機這是第一個部分第二個部分我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
2399.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
2418.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
修法的責任 當然剛剛也有教授特別提到 其實草案法當然主要是中央政府財政部所負擔的最重要的權責 修法的這個主管機關所以我個人的看法是認為 既然是這樣 所以其實修法的責任當然是在中央政府身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
2418.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
2441.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那到目前為止我們所看到的訊息大部分都是之所以沒有辦法馬上進行修法主要是因為沒有辦法得到地方政府之間的大家的一個共同的一個比較有共識的一種修法的內容的形成但是這樣的一個說法可能沒有辦法對社會各界有一個很明確的交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
2442.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
2450.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以既然中央政府是權責的機關所以即使在地方政府意見分歧的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
2450.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
2475.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我覺得中央政府還是要負擔最重要的責任來引導地方來找到一個可以形成共識的這樣的一個修法的內涵至少在這個修法的過程裡面這是中央政府所應該要做的所以這是第二個部分我認為在修法的責任上中央應該負擔更大的一個責任那第三個部分就回到來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
2477.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
2479.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
2503.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
2531.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
第3個部分就是希望在修改了以後地方政府的自主性跟自律性可以提高第4個部分就是希望在解決未來的問題的情況下讓中央跟地方可以用共同決策參與的方式而不是用現在的單純的協商的方式來處理這4個修法原則如果能夠做改善的話基本上就可以對我們未來的修法有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
2532.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
2556.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那當然這整個的修法的內容很多所以我因此我就把我的這個修法的內容的架構大概整理在這個圖表上但是因為很複雜我就不仔細談那我簡單的來的這樣說把幾個重點第一個部分有關於統籌的擴大的部分那我想剛剛大家都提到了所謂的75比25的這樣一個概念那基本上一個規模的大小 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
2557.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
2575.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
中央跟地方之間怎麼分在我們現行的情況之下我們要做調整的話大概有幾個觀念上的問題我們需要注意的除了剛才那個75跟25的比例大家在中央跟地方之間的收入的一種這個收支的分配之間有意見以外那第二個更重要就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
2576.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
2599.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
財政部常常提其實在現有的制度之下其實我們也在成長在分配給地方但是這樣的一個概念基本上是有差異的那就表示說在一個現行制度下的規模的成長跟制度改革之下的規模的成長其實意義是不一樣的其實地方政府現在要的不是在現行制度之下所得到的成長的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
2600.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
2620.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
在最重要的是因為這個制度本身有很多的問題而且不能夠符合時代的需求所以制度改革了以後的成長會遠比在現行制度之下所看到的所謂的成長會來得更重要這也是我們要關心的話題這也是為什麼我們要修這個草案法的重要的原因所以為了這個問題所以因此我們在這個情況之下要修這個第一個部分所謂的統籌部分稅款的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
2626.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
2627.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
財政事務委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
2648.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
2667.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
擴大的過程當中其實是把營業稅全部給地方再加上燕酒稅這其實是一個已經形成的一個似乎營業的共識那我現在唯一的差別就是在擴大的過程裡面因為已經經過25年那我們有沒有必要除了這兩個稅以外再適度的再加上一部分的稅源來當成 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
2668.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
2668.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
中和索賭稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
2685.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
2702.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那補助款的部分,因為一般性的補助款它終究有一個很大的功能,就是做收支差短的彌補那既然是收支差短的彌補,其實它的屬性跟統籌分析款是相似的所以我們建議呢,要這樣的一個部分把它併到統籌分析款進去那這樣的話就可以讓整個的統籌分析款的這個規模擴大那接下來第二個部分就是分配的問題那這個分配的問題當然是很大的一個爭議的所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
2713.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
2739.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那這中間要解決的問題第一個就是當然是我們現在目前的三層式的這樣結構是不合理的所以因此我們要把它改掉而且各地方政府不管職下是縣市它的分配公式是要一樣的那採用什麼樣的公式呢基本上我的建議就是回到所有的地方政府都採用基準的收入跟支出的差短的彌補來當成是適用的標準那在這樣的一個標準之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
2740.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
2740.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
2764.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
2765.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
2782.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
2801.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
每一個地方政府所認為對它最有利的因素的不同而導致於所謂的每次在談到怎麼分配的時候我們那種所謂的共識很難形成那我為了這個問題我設計了一套所謂的最有利指標的分配機制但是因為時間不夠所以我在這邊就不強調了這個問題如果地方政府或是立法院有這個興趣的話我可以再有機會我再另外的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
2812.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
2813.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
地方自主自律 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
2834.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
2834.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
2855.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
2881.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
銀利事業所的稅在各地方之間的差異性跟它的穩定性相對其他稅是最高的那稅收分層的一個好處很多但是壞處是什麼壞處是怕在這樣的情況之下各地方的稅收的差異性會越來越高如果每一個地方的某一個稅它的這個差別性很大的話就會造成所謂的窮者愈窮富者愈富富的可能性所以因此我們在挑選的過程裡面要兼顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
2881.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
2882.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
共同決定機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
2903.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
2930.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
有溝通的機會是透過所謂的協商在那個協商我們都可以感覺到從法律的條文的意義上來看或是實際執行的過程當中我們都發現其實只是找地方來聽聽意見最後的結果還是決定在中央政府身上那我覺得這樣的一個方式基本上讓地方政府的參與性不夠所以因此我們建議未來大家需要一個共同參與的機制所以希望設一個統籌分配稅款的分配委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
2931.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
2959.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
由實際的參與決策來達成中央跟地方之間未來問題的解決這是這個我的這個修法版本的內容大概的狀況那另外我就修一個民進黨黨團在101年的時候其實有財法法的修正的版本如果各位可以仔細看一下的話你大概也可以體會出來大概目前如果執政黨要提版本的話應該是他的方向和內容大概是什麼樣的情形那最後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
2960.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
2967.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我就要提到我的幾個結論第一個就是我希望我們在談這個問題的時候呢中央政府應該全盤的進行制度的檢討跟改革不要再做只是單純的局部條文的修正這樣是我們已經25年沒改了現在如果只是在希望透過局部的改變而來應付現行的情況的話我覺得這是不適當的第二個我希望各政黨能夠先把各黨的個人的委員的意見整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
2986.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3009.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
各政黨提出黨團版本方便未來委員會在討論的時候能夠有一個比較更統一能夠有一個共識趨勢形成的可能性來有利於未來的修法工作推展最後一個我要沉重的呼籲我希望中央的改革態度能夠要有誠意 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3010.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3011.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
現在請郭國文 郭昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3047.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3049.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
主席安排公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3064.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3086.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
在15年前那是我在地方政府擔任政務官的時候地方政府包括台南縣政府、台南市政府也好當初兩位市長都積極地想要去推動縣市合併升格那當初推動縣市合併升格的其實背後的最主要目的其實是要改變那個地方政府的這個財政能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3087.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3111.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那地方政府財政能力確實就如同剛剛幾位專家學者所說的在京省之後呢確實受到一定程度的框架就我理解那從1999年的這個財法法修法之後就是京省前的這個財法法修法之後呢其實地方的財務對中央的依存度其實是越來越高相對呢自主性也相對是越來越低這是不爭的事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3111.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
3112.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
3133.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
3134.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
財政部長財政部長財政部長財政部長財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
3159.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
3159.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
該修,但不該亂修 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
3174.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
3200.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
為什麽我會這麽說呢但是你如果要牽扯到全面性的就單純一部財法法其實要修其實就不容易了這一部財法法是在整個政黨輪廓之前所設計的一個架構那中間呢歷經了整個國民黨完全執政的時候也就是說呢當初啊國民黨完全執政的時候第7屆國民黨的時候有81期立委為什麽不修那時候國民黨只有27期也就是說簡單的講不是那麽容易修啦不是不修不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
3201.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
3226.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
不容易修不是不修那不修跟不容易修這個差別在哪裡呢除了不是單純的只有中央垂直的分配而已還有現在水平的分配大家都會非常清楚從財化法的目的來說是要顧及整個地方的一個均衡發展顧及要顧及地方的均衡發展我也同意剛剛那個王煌維委員所講的所以國民黨版本增加5000多億之後每個縣市都會增加錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
3228.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
3248.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
問題是 增加多跟增加少差很多它可能會讓差距越來越大差距越來越大 看似給地方比較多的錢但是呢 之間的差距會越來越大差距越來越大的時候 城鄉將來會越來越失衡各位有沒有想到這個問題所以這裡頭 我就是對國民黨版本一直沒有辦法苟同的一個原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
3250.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
3267.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
嚴格來說以整個經省來看之前的比例剛剛黃耀輝黃教授有提到我剛才看到一下之所以會這樣子的話其實那個稅別有所不同整個經省之後的省跟直轄市的稅別營業稅會是劃分在國稅這個比例上老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
3268.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
3285.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這在中央政府來說是有平平正正的但是嚴格來說呢地方之所以會如此的話會這樣做調整當初北高的損失的部分也有提撥所得稅10% 貨物稅10%所以在彌補之前修法前的一些不足的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
3286.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
3286.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
3304.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
3305.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
3329.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
3330.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
3354.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
3370.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以我認為在這些版本當中會不會造成地方更加失衡老實說我最擔心的譬如講原來國民黨版本是多一個所督條款結果我今天剛剛側面聽到台北市政府今天又提了所謂的營業稅50%留在地方營業稅50%留在地方的話我看台北市政府又多了大概1000億之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
3372.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
3386.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
銀索稅的部分就是高鴻安的版本的話銀索稅的部分應該放在地方政府要5%如果這樣的話對高鴻安也比較有利每個縣市都是朝他有利的一個方向那我其實最後要講的部分才華火真的是要修 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
3387.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
3405.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
但是這有一些歷史的問題 也有一些現實的問題我覺得要修 但是真的不要急著修我想專家學者這麼多 我覺得要多辦幾次公聽會然後多幾次的研討會 多一些版本我們來進行一些細緻性的對話 多一些民主的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
3405.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
3405.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
郭國文 郭昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
3435.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
3442.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
接著請臺北大學公共行政暨政策學系教授 呂育成 呂教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
3458.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
3471.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
主席還有在座各位委員還有先進各位專家大家早安我想剛才聽了很多從這個地方這種食物面然後財政的這個收支等等這個層面來討論這個財劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
3474.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
3499.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
或許我是一個公共行政的一個學者在我們這個場合裡面顯得相當的另類提供一些政府管理公共行政的這個觀點給大家參考我是來自於臺北大學公共行政系的呂日成那我今天主要的這一個分享的重點呢就在於時間的關係我就直接把委員會給我的這一個發言的問題直接先跟各位分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
3500.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
3526.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
林天的剛才從這個縣市政府來至於這個學者專家前面的意見我想各位都能夠理解到有兩個我們常常都看起來很有共識的一個議題但是卻很難去做一個決定第一個就是我想大家都同意歷經這麼多年的這個時間《財化法》應該要修正我想每一位應該都不會反對但是我們為什麼沒辦法修正答案很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
3528.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
3545.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
從頭到尾就不是一個財政的問題它就是一個政治的問題那我的想像很簡單既然是政治問題那我們就回歸政治問題的方式來處理只是增值這個百分之多少哪一個稅務各位先進真的覺得我們這一次能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
3546.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
3547.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
政府管理政策方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
3568.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
3590.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
提到把柄做大,我想大概也不會有人反對把柄做大但是如果把柄做大的結果只是中央地方一直在爭奪或者是分配他的既有的財源各位先進真的覺得我們這一次還能夠成功嗎?我覺得更重要的一件事情可能要想想看在未來我們整個國家發展的一個情境下 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
3591.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
3591.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
財政收支劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
3615.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
3619.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
通盤性的檢討通盤性的規劃各位想想看地方行政區劃法是不是也是相同的狀況我們都認為行政區劃應該改但是問題是在實務的狀況下行政區劃很難做改變既然很難做改變我們是不是就回歸現實 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
3639.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
3640.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
3651.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
3676.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
記錄的這個問題這等一下我要做說明第三個呢就是這個分配的程序公式化透明化我想在座各位先進不會有人反對但是問題在於公式化透明化的同時我們用什麼樣的機制讓它能夠被真正的操作那我個人認為說應該要納入協商跟微調的這個彈性最後一個呢就是協商的這個機制我個人覺得非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
3677.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
3677.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
財政統籌分配稅款分配問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
3705.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
3705.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
3720.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
3720.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
3737.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
3737.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
財源有限,效用更加重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
3756.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
3756.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
立法院第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
3772.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
3797.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這一個75%到99%這樣的一個巨大的落差那不僅如此在年齡層的分布上也有非常巨大的落差所以我們今天在談各種的這個財政的比例跟配置的時候是不是應該把這些政策的一個基礎也把它納進考量但是各位有沒有想過如果把這些政策基礎全部納入考量的話恐怕我們今天又是一個各說各話這個雞同鴨講的一個情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
3799.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
3806.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以這個是六都之外我們也可以看到整個十六縣市的一個實質的一個情形所以我還是從比較務實的角度來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
3810.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
3835.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
如果我們今天把這個財源真的去擴大兩個問題是我們現行的這個地方政府的這個體制真的能夠好好的去運用這些有限的財源嗎各位可以看到第一個表格是我們現時的狀況是整個地方政府之間的這個公務人力數非常的懸殊光從六都各位就可以看出地方公務人數的懸殊那麼更不要講這個其他的這個縣市的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
3838.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
3865.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
另外一個線索這是我這幾天一直在想像這是最新的111年度省計部所做的一個統計跟分析用這兩個圖因為我不是財政專業我是從政策的角度來看我特別把社福支出跟教科人支出圈起來我要說明的是未來我們整個國家的發展事實上已經是社福支出跟教科人支出佔了絕大的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
3866.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
3895.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
不管你生活在哪一個地區生活在哪一個縣市我們民眾在這兩個項目上所獲得的服務應該是一致還是不一致我個人認為應該是要一致的這是一個國民生活的基本的一個概念所以如果這樣的邏輯是可以接受的話只是在做這個百分比的分配我覺得意義其實是不大那不僅是稅入跟稅出都有類似的狀況換句話說我想要強調的是未來國家發展的時候已經很 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
3896.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
3922.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
強烈的走向必須要先滿足民眾、國民的基本需求那麼除了這些數字的呈現之外時間關係這也是省經部裡面我覺得很有興趣的一個表這是從107年到111年這個中央撥補地方的這個預算編列的撥付情形各位可以發現即便是現在地方在執行這個中央補助款的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
3923.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
3923.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
3942.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
3966.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
政策的一個規劃的檢討各位可以到裡面去看一下事實上它在執行的過程中還是有很多的這個共同性的問題存在不僅如此這一項所要呈現的是未來我們在長照我們在資源這個環保乃至於這個少子女化的這個問題上更需要通盤的去做考量所以我最後用這張投影片來作為我的結論第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
3968.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
3986.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
統籌分配款應該回歸到分配的議題也就是讓縣市有能力去執行全國一致性的政策那麼縣市應該要相對的去符合特定的政策標準換句話說除了去給去要求去給更多更多的財源之外我們是不是要考慮到政策執行的標準化一致化以及政策的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
3987.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4013.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
在配合的途徑上可以去建立一個協商制度這個我個人極表同意有一個協商公開透明的機制我們比較能夠讓很多的事情攤開在全國國民的這個觀念之下那不僅如此可以做一些排除規定也就是我們在有限的資源可以用在什麼樣的科目什麼樣的科目應該就排除我就用過這樣的方式可以把寶貴的資源做更合理的應用以上分享 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4016.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4020.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
謝謝呂育成、呂教授接著請張祺凱立委謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4043.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4070.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
今天這是歷史上財劃法最接近可能可以比較完美來修改的一刻是歷史上最有可能把財劃法做一個比較公平完美修正的一刻為什麼呢一方面立法院有三黨不過半第二其實更重要的是各黨都有主張現在大家看到其實不是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4072.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
4087.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
國民黨跟臺灣民眾黨提了版本事實上民進黨有非常多人都主張過也提了版本我特別請財政部莊部長注意一個事情以前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
4088.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
4113.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
民進黨的專家 立法院的專家彭百選 許天才都非常注意這個很多民進黨有理想的 立法院也提過 更重要的林全剛上任行政院長的時候 貝尼井他是有版本的第二個更重要賴清德 賴總統 這很敬意 一定會信他是有允諾他提修正版的 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
4114.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
4142.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我知道這次的能夠修正有兩個歷史上很大的契機剛好在這時候都發生了一個是三黨不過半以前國民黨執政民進黨要求要改民進黨執政國民黨要求要改都過不了嘛現在三黨不過半所以他的契機就來了第二其實更重要我認為有林全那個版本有賴清德總統當行政院長時候的允諾他對人民是有允諾的所以我鄭重呼籲莊部長其實你今天報告看起來你好像看起來不修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
4143.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
4166.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我鄭重的呼籲你回去把林全的版本拿出來看一下林全部長剛剛接行政院長我之前在電視的主持節目他找我到他的辦公室聊了很久我覺得他那個版本事實上是可以解決問題的一方面他把餅做到的同時他把一部分的錢真的有下放到地方去了他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
4167.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
4191.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
分配方式也是比較公平的可以滿足各個縣市的所以我鄭重呼籲莊部長回去要做兩件事情第一個把林全的版本拿出來看一下我非常期待民進黨最後有一個行政院版你如果不提的話或者你要抄要參考用林全的版本你民進黨自己的行政院長嘛第二個你應該跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
4193.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
4205.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
賴總統要提醒他跟人民是有承諾的好不好所以我認為現在是很有可能可以跨出這個完美修正的一步恭喜齋他是個政治問題沒錯啊誰擔保民進黨以後會永久執政把法修好對任何一個黨對民進黨對國民黨對台灣民眾黨對所有的縣市都是好的剛剛我聽了蠻感動很多選手中間都說啊少一點政治 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
4221.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
4245.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
小一點政治 我們今天卡司很強欸我們不只有來自22縣市的 欸 都戶企一定有來秘書一定有來 就一定都來了 對不對這個要非常謝謝這個主席的安排第一個 我們學者的卡司也很強啊曾紀惠 曾教授 我以前在做記者我比他心裡最低分寸的國庫課題他就是我的推薦系的專家了那時候有彭百選 有翁崇勳 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
4248.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
4275.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
黃耀輝黃教授我古尼我們一起開了財劃法要怎麼修的記者會今天這麼多有名的財經界的這個大師都是記簿啊陳國良陳教授李顯峰李教授李育成李教授陳文清陳教授林長清林教授蔡群立蔡教授柯格宗柯教授這卡子非常強一個我是覺得每個學者跟每個立法院都站在這邊講話都要對歷史負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
4278.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
4298.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們把政治少一點點竟然考試這麼強我們就把專家學者今天講的還有一個很重要的重點每個縣市都派了代表來了今天不只列到公報上面我們嚴格的要求我們很期待的是今天各個縣市要求的一些改革我覺得我整個聽下來很合理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
4300.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
4329.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
你只要去看年前那個版本我覺得今天各個縣市提的專家學者講的非常多是吻合的所以最後做一個簡單的結論第一個很謝謝主席今天邀了這麼多的縣市跟專家學者來等一下可能我們每個黨講話可能立場不見得是一樣可是有幾個原則一定要做到第一個各個縣市在這次修法之後不只一毛錢不能少每個縣市喔都應該是要增加的那你說白話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
4331.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
4358.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
有沒有公屏 這個有方法可以做嗎 我覺得加一期提的方法非常好 加一次提的是什麼他說你先提撥一定的比例 這個在國民黨的版本我們有看到啊 國民黨說你要撥下去之前你先把11%先拿出來 那有22個官區嘛 對不對那每個縣市在做的事情幾乎都 很多事情都是一樣已經要達成的嘛 那你先拿11%出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
4359.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
4380.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
分給22縣市分0.5啊這可以滿足他基本的這個需求而且是公平的我覺得嘉義市這個非常的好第二個中央要好好去回去想一想不是只有覺得說現在好像是各個縣市或者是國民黨和民眾去搶中央的錢不是這樣子的中央的錢你看最近這幾年每年都超收啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
4381.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
4408.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
對不對他有足夠的財源而且他是有機會把餅做大的我覺得莊部長跟民進黨的中央應該要對歷史負責不要從短暫的民進黨執政這個事情去看我覺得是有機會可以改的那另外利用這個機會我最後要做一個做一個呼籲今天難得22個縣市的代表都來22個縣市的代表都來那今天可能有些人在講說22個縣市好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
4411.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
4426.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
立場是不一 我不這樣看這次我看到一個很大的一個契機就是國民黨四個直轄市的市長都已經講了他們就是在分配的過程裡面他們因為把比較多的錢分給各個其他這個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
4428.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
4448.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
所以第一個從垂直的分配上面請中央去參考零錢的版本該把餅做大的你現有的財源下放到地方來第二個在直轄市到各個其他縣市比較貧困的縣市做一個比較水平的某些直轄市的錢確實應該撥到地方去好不好我們共同來努力我再強調一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
4450.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
4464.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這是歷史上最好最接近可以改革的一刻而且這是對所有的政黨對中央跟地方都是好的我們共同努力謝謝大家謝謝謝謝感謝謝謝張祺凱張委員接著請陳問津成功大學法律學系副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
4507.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
4529.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
主席還有各位委員還有各位先進還有各位的機關列席代表大家好我是成功大學陳文清地方財源不足必須高度仰賴中央的補助一直是以我們長期以來地方自治長期以來的問題而且也長達 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
4532.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
4559.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
25年沒有修法了那今天地方財政困難最根本的根源是在於說我國未以憲法的明文規定中央跟地方的財政稅捐立法權還有稅收權它僅僅只是用法律未接的財政收支劃分法地方稅法通則地方制度法公債法等等法律來加以規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
4561.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
4583.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那這些法律的一個問題是在於說它是由中央的一手主導來立法所以呢當然就會把這個稅收的一個比較豐沛的一個權員畫到自己手上這是一個問題所在啦然後再來就是說呢因為地方自治呢是受到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
4591.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
4617.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
市自498號的一個憲法所保障的一個制度然後所以而且從這個理論上來講的話呢這個地方自治的一個住民呢他是一個有一個呢他的一個核心的一個需要保障的一個範圍所以不管是人事高權財政高權立法高權這個都是屬於地方自治 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
4618.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
4620.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
中央為某全國之經濟平衡發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
4639.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
4640.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
4661.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
4662.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
4680.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
4693.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
中央拿走了將近90%然後營業稅拿走了將近60%跟貨物稅拿走將近90%那剩下的所向所得稅來說的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
4695.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
4705.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
將近剩下的10%才由所有縣市下去劃分這些縣市包含6個直轄市、13個縣、3個市跟198個鄉鎮市下去劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
4712.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
4732.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這可以看得出來 這樣的一個劃分方式已經先天注定各地方政府的分配款項很難維持它基本的財政能力即便是垂直上的分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
4733.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
4734 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
6個直轄縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
4751.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
4770.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
分配到24%然後198個鄉鎮市分配到8點多的一個分配稅款所以即便是地方自治團體彼此水平之間呢他也不是處於一個很平衡的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
4772.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
4773.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
4794.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
4794.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
4823.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
4824.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
4839.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
4850.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
特別統籌分配款又是在特殊情況下才會分配這都是問題所在當然我們可以參考一下德國的一個聯邦跟中 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
4855.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
4855.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
4871.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
4872.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
4896.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
4924.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
銀利事業所得稅這三種比較分配的稅捐他就去做進行分配那第二階段他是做水平的財政分配也就是說在各幫之間他已經分配到剛剛分配到的款項按照各幫的稅所收取的稅收去直接歸屬於各幫 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
4925.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
4928.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
引頁稅收按照各邦居民人口最後還有一個特殊的地方有比較有錢的邦 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
4947.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
4948.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
4966.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
4970.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
中央應該捨棄對地方稅捐立法權的過度限制因為當你對地方的立法權過度限制的時候地方不可能再去做什麼財政努力了因為他錢就不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
4993.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5019.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
然後第二個也是剛才各位與會學者都有提出的稅捐收入要由中央跟地方去合理的共享到底比例是多少這個還可以再去討論但是怎麼樣都會比遺產稅好因為遺產稅它是一個可規劃的稅捐它在我國的稅收裡面絕對不會佔前百分 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5022.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5023.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5042.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5043.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5057.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5057.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
最後一個主張就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5079.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5102.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
在這個即便是我們要用財化法這種法律位階制度來處理這個問題的話請要有一個代表地方地方制度的一個憲政機關的一個產生來為地方發聲以上是我的一個簡短的報告 謝謝各位好 謝謝陳問卿 陳教授接著請賴世保 賴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5120.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
5138.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進今天談到財劃法我心裡感觸滿多的我在立法院多年這一部財劃法25年沒有修在中間我們幾個委員修幾次都不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
5140.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
5165.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
最大原因在哪裡?最大原因是因為這個難運沒有關係 跟縣市有關係各縣市選出來的立委一定要幫他講話所以縣市之間的整合就變成非常的重要那這次我們國民黨團已經先整合了各國民黨執政的各縣市的版本水平分配 垂直分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
5169.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
5178.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我個人的提案所得稅增加百分之二十給地方我愛快樂給地方這叫垂直分配財政部的莊部長擺爛而且最可惡的地方就是說因為稅評分被搞不定了所以他不要垂直分配莊部長你要認清楚一個事實喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
5194.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
5202.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
修憲以前1999年李登輝時代中央跟地方比例是60比40然後到現在2024年 去年的時候經過25年了 245年了中央的頭越來越大地方的腿越來越小啊那這裡我卡在哪裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
5222.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
5237.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
像麻雀腳一樣阿中央地方多少你知道嗎72對28阿不僅3年都是如此阿去年72對28.1去年72點多對28.2再過來29所以就是72對28阿講70對甚至是客氣的阿我們要的不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
5251.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
5254.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
你好歹回到1999年60對40啊 總部長就擺爛說哎喲地方沒有恰好 所以連版本都沒有提啊你是部長欸 行政委員擺爛 總統他還說哎喲這個不能修 要割你的肉李樹德當部長都還願意割960幾億給地方政府 結果莊春英當部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
5280.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
5294.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
一毛不拔你只會講我現在給地方很多給地方很多來看比例啊你整個坪變大了整個坪變得很大你給地方的越來越少比例28.2是過去這幾年最少的一年去年前年28.3你不要糊弄大家啊你說哎呀我給這裡給他給他給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
5308.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
5337.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
第一個可惡的地方啊財政部啊財政部是最可惡啊不知道這個民主時代中央的地方是夥伴關係啊拳一把爪要前來磕頭向你磕頭然後在分配的時候又正常意識這麼強這是最令人痛恨的我今天部長在這裡啊一定講給你聽啊財挖瓦最大的主腦的黑手就是莊翠穎 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
5339.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
5344.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
你這帽子很沉重喔你到現在為啥不提你的版本為啥不提版本呢為啥不敢提版本呢你告訴我們啊院長下令不可以提嗎民進黨腿擺爛 故意不提只會講說要拖時間他們的委員說都派公聽會Man 這次公聽會大家都已經清楚了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
5366.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
5372.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
中退營部長用水平分配搞不定不給垂直分配從李登輝時代的60對40一日一日膨脹到72對28這是現況你不要跟我講說我給地方給很多錢那個騙人的中部長不要變裝騙子專門欺負地方政府就跟你要我具體來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
5397.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
5413.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
比例說臺北市他還交很多錢啊相對的你給他很少啊統籌加我剛剛的數字是統籌加一般計劃加專案計劃加起來的數字喔不是只有指統籌分配稅款喔這三個加起來的數字是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
5416.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
5437.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我主張營業稅百分之百應該給地方稅額你現在覺得百分之四十我們還很客氣啊百分之百地方稅額可是我們願意50%給這個要統總分貸稅款這是臺北市政府的版本我臺北市選舉委員立委要替臺北市政府講話第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
5441.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
5470.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
未來的一般性補助款財源不可以低於所得稅的10%貨物稅的10%最重要最重要的就是前面幾個專家提到了現在都好多德政喔加薪喔里長加薪喔議員的助理加薪費里的加薪喔通通地方買單啦面子都是你莊崔穎部長在做喔都是卓榮堯在做喔 你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
5472.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
5474.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
中央多大方啊結果通通是地方政府在買單啊我們要修法以後開任何的支票不可以地方政府買單只要中央這裡立法院通過的通通中央沒有買單這才對啦所以簡單的講我今天的話我就把實況講出來1999年開始中央跟地方60對40到現在為止一路變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
5503.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
5524.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
其實他不是28你說你有公事林全講了公事公事把它法制化林全的治理明年要錢沒有要明一條他就是用公事來分配你們有什麼公事你們公事叫做老闆的意思就是公事行政院長的意思總統的意思就是這個所以你攤開一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
5527.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
5538.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
現在民進黨執政 綠的政府地方政府拿錢就那比較多嘛 跟疫苗一樣啊這到底在那邊有趣啊大家心裡不服啊 我覺得我們地方政府太善良了太善良了地方政府應該群起起來抗議財政部的莊部長為什麼到現在沒有膽子拿出你的版本你告訴我們啊你做不到嗎 你絕對做不到啊每一個立委都可以拿出來 為什麼你拿不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
5556.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
5559.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
你公聽會講：是行政院長叫你不要拿 是不是採取無事上的 要水不費改不便宜的撥錢下來其實要對28樁部長 這幾年下來一路的減少 地方一路減少你嘴巴講出來比較多 因為餅變大了啊比例還是低啊樁部長你很可憐 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
5584.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
5597.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
不改了部長的肩膀你也很客戶欺負地方政府我們才要把這個會期我們希望臨時會我們拜託主席啊這個一定要把他送出委員會想辦法盡快的通過刪讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
5601.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
5621.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我覺得讓社會來公平這個讓地方政府不能夠這樣欺負地方政府啊中央地方不是上限級的關係是夥伴關係地方的首長都是一票一票選出來的不知道你還有沒有民意基礎勒我有民意基礎你沒有勒想清楚啊 謝謝好 謝謝賴仕寶賴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
5629.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
5654.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那部長是 中央地方是夥伴關係嘛那公聽會還要不要再辦今天一場 有沒有需要再辦需要的話再跟我講接著再請黃珊珊對不起 黃珊珊請準備 請李顯峰臺灣大學經濟學系副教授請李副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
5668.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
5682.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
主席 各位委員 還有專部長 還有在座的各位專家 學者 各位朋友很榮幸 大家好那就來簡短對於財劃法的修正發表一點淺見 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
5685.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
5695.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這個財化法的確從民國88年到現在這個衣服坦白講這個已經舊了中間縫縫補補縫縫補補大家都可以穿大家就是這樣過但是呢的確不是非常的舒適那這個中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
5707.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
5715.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
跟地方的財源比例因為也有歷史的因素了因為陳傑省府的負債那這樣一直下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
5716.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
5737.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那麼當然這個財源跟權責是要對等所以移轉的話財源多但是責任也應該多一點那所以到目前社會有一個共識氣氛也慢慢成熟也就是財化法應該要修那簡單來講就是因為國際情勢的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
5742.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
5767.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
政府的職能這個劃分也慢慢慢慢的複雜所以原來財劃法裡面的副表一副表二還有甚至關於這個地方制度法等等這些也不見得非常的妥適那其次各級政府參與的劃分也不夠合理也就是我們從 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
5773.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
5793.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
稅積、稅務、適當原則上的確是要檢討這個詳細數字各位先進都非常熟悉的確從稅入稅出差短還有地方依靠補助還有協助收入還有自籌財運的比例實在都比較低 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
5795.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
5807.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
在這種情況之下,的確需要中央很大的挹注現行的中央統合婚姻稅款的確是很複雜,因為它直接切成3塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
5811.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
5838.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
財源方面有營業稅、貨物稅、土增稅、移證稅、菸酒稅等其次分配的比例的確是非常複雜因為當年在訂這些比例的時候 剛開始是遷就限時因為指甲是能夠拿到多少 剛開始是先從71% |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
5841.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
5843.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
指標分配指標分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
5866.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
5890.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
當然接下來我們要去修法那現在其實社會的氣氛也慢慢慢慢的成熟那所以在這種情況之下在修法上大家比較有一些共識所以基於分配性的正義我們要照顧最弱勢者平衡區域的發展在這種情況之下的確來做一些調整做一些修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
5891.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
5908.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
當然因為縣市他除了統獨分稅管這個本來就是自有的財源大家來調戲營需但是還有一塊是一般補助款那這個部分是滿足地方政府的基本的財政需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
5909.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
5909.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
5929.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
5952.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
中央統統配稅款跟一般補助款這個的確是要調整但是因為這個法源不同主管的我們的機關也不同這個要好好的去做一些協調因為原則上的確在稅源財源上要擴大規模也就是說這個時代這個時候來檢討垂直的分配跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
5953.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
5953.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
5980.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
5980.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
立法院第11會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
5984.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
5984.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
統籌分稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6016.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6043.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個指標上因為從各縣市所反映的這些共識大概共識裡面最多的人口營利事業的營業額還有土地面積財政能力比如說可以用自有財源或者農林雲霧的產值還有平均可這邊所得然後很重要的一點參照日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6044.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6044.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6070.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6099.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
首都有首都的需求但是呢比如說像離島地區它配合這個離島條例那這個離島基金這邊來做一些調整那這個權數呢大家可以有一些討論這個日本的地方交付稅有這樣的那最後啊也要來配合修訂地方制度法比如說關於這個地方的自治財政啦自治的稅客啦跨區的治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6100.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6117.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
還有中央地方費用全責這部分來一起來修併那這樣的話希望氣氛已經成熟了所以應該是可以來啟動這一個修法的大業謝謝好 謝謝李省鋒李教授接著請黃森森黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6139.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6139.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
財政局長、市府代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6159.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6187.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我們也來自地方政府今天有看到臺北市還有我們相對的新竹市其實在地方稅收貢獻很多的地方它分配回去的公平性其實一直備受爭議今天的主題財化法的修法臺灣民眾黨也提出了我們的版本整個版本其實在各界包括選前我們都有遵循非常多的專家也謝謝非常多的教授給我們很多的指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6188.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6188.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6207.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6211.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
上任之後質詢陳建運院長的第一個問題就是財化法陳院長說他會來做相關意見的徵詢不過這個徵詢一徵詢就徵詢了25年 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6221.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6247.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
過去的三個月財政部的說法他們都在彙整地方政府的意見但是現在看起來地方政府都有表示意見但是財政部他們依然在討論說他們要用什麼樣的指標什麼樣的分配方式什麼樣的相關的參數或公式但是我昨天前幾天質詢我們莊部長的時候我也講得很清楚我們希望行政院有自己的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
6247.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
6274.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
如果財政部跟行政院的指標這麼好分配的方式非常的好非常的公平就也請財政部提出你們的指標讓我們納入新修訂的財政收支劃分法我想地方政府很清楚的就是我們希望地方的努力能夠被看見該有的地方自治的權限應該被能夠保障他在地方上面施政的順暢所以我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
6276.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
6285.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
檢討相關地方財政的時候從2015年到2021年六都的自籌財源比重大概是54到57左右16個縣市的自籌財源佔稅率比重其實是23到27左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
6292.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
6318.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
也就是說指轄市跟非指轄的水平分配非常懸殊地方政府自籌財源占稅入的比例也非常的有限甚至有些縣市是減少的趨勢也就是各地方政府他們自籌財源在他的需求上面是越來越少完全要靠中央的挹注那財務法的修法我們國民黨跟民進黨還有民眾黨我們都提曾經提出過相關的版本當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
6319.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
6337.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
蔡英文總統任內是唯一一個沒有提出財化法修法的版本的總統我們也希望接下來的賴總統不要成為另外一個蔡政府最重要的是2012的賴市長跟2017的賴院長都說要修財化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
6338.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
6359.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
財務法裏面兩個迷思 第一個是中央跟地方之間的聯合賽局我們認為不是 它應該是一個互惠雙贏所以台灣民眾黨希望的是在現有的中央政府的預算裏面能夠在不影響中央政府的正式運作的情況下能夠撥出一定的比例來回饋給地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
6360.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
6384.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
從每一年的稅期剩餘從106到112年我們的稅期剩餘從25億到4900億不等平均一年大概是2057億也就是說台灣民眾黨所提出的財化法的版本所釋出的金額大概就是2700億這個也就是說不會影響到中央正式的運作我們希望在一個合理的範圍之內中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
6386.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
6405.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
本來就用不完這些錢這些錢應該可以拿來做益助地方政府尤其是財劃法裡面的財源第二個我們不希望富者很富窮者很窮所以希望在水平分配上面也有一定的公式跟制度化跟明確化最重要是公開與透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
6405.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
6431.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
讓地方政府很清楚知道自己做什麼努力會有得到什麼樣的補助而不是像現在可能要不知道會不會有下一秒鐘每一次公教人員壓刑中央第一句話就是我們一定補助但是第二年請你自仇我想說地方政府最痛苦的就是就像昨天早上通過的地方民意代表自己條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
6432.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
6432.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
謝謝黃珊珊黃委員接著 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
6462.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
6479.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
請成功大學經濟學系教授林長青林教授另外報告,12點了,到了用餐的時間,請方便的執行用餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
6499.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
6522.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
主席、各位委員、各位部長、各位先進、大家午安很高興有這個機會來這邊跟大家分享一下對財政劃分法的一些想法我們都知道這個財政劃分法是對於中央跟地方財政長久發展有非常深遠的影響而且它不只是影響到財政,它還會影響到地方的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
6524.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
6546.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
由於這個改革是相當的大所以我們特別是呼籲要透過這個機會我們是不是能夠有一個比較周延的規劃跟討論以下我就針對首先針對我們這個地方水平分配大家比較關心的部分提出一些自己的想法其次如果我們真的考慮到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
6549.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
6555.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
分配呢 要中央要挪到地方要挪多一點點的時候那是不是我們應該進一步去考慮我們財權跟事權的明確規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
6561.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
6580.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
最後針對中央到地方政府的垂直分配做一些很簡單的原則上的建議首先針對水平劃分的一些原則我相信各縣市都有提出他們最有力的指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
6583.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
6603.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
當我們這個經費撥到地方之後實際上它就有一個共分的特性這個共分的特性老實說應該就要回到地方自治的精神什麼叫回到地方自治的精神很簡單那就是各縣市跟直轄市要進一步來協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
6605.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
6628.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
到底看看有哪一些共同的指標要把它納進來但是這些共同的指標事實上不是那麼的困難因為各縣市都有自己知道什麼樣是共同的一些共識那如果有各縣市自己的需求呢剛剛曾居樂老師也提出一些其他的處理方法他有一些處理的公式可以來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
6629.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
6657.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
但是最重要的是什麼最重要的就是它的分配規則一定要有公式要有透明那為什麼要這樣子呢因為要增進它的明確性而且這樣子讓地方政府也有利可循那所以在修法上面我特別提醒各縣市政府跟直轄市可能可以考慮幾點那特別是 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
6659.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
6665.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
這個統籌分配款的主要目標之一是在平衡地方區域的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
6667.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
6687.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以這個時候應該要將地方的基本財政需要比方說人事、社福作為分配的指標讓地方有更額外的資源來投入地方的整個基礎的發展然後進一步來推動建設以及經濟發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
6689.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
6714.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
此外,因應老年社會的來臨,地方政府可以在人口的數以外,可以進一步考量老年人口、學齡人口等人口結構的變數此外,如果我們有所謂的永續發展的時候,也可以把相關的永續指標放進來,來當作不同的權重考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
6716.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
6742.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
但是我這邊特別希望有兩個指標可能要進一步考慮第一個就是獎勵性指標第二個就是補助性指標獎勵性指標事實上是希望能夠增進財政的健全這個補助性指標事實上是能夠兼顧到公平性進一步來講獎勵性指標大概是在講的是所謂的財政努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
6744.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
6758.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
財政努力是包含地方財政的自主性、自律性我們希望能夠達成中長期的財政健全開源節流提升整個財政上面的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
6760.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
6780.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
至於補助性的指標,這部分是比較考慮弱小的縣市在基礎建設、人力、公共服務的需求上面,我們給予相關的一個補助至於指標要納入哪些因素,事實上可由地方政府跟中央一起再來談一談 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
6783.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
6805.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
其實我要來談一下財政支出的全責劃分我覺得也應該在這樣的一個修法機會裡面一併討論我們都知道財政有收入跟支出他們是一體兩面的所以當地方財政的收入增加的時候地方政府支出的責任老實說也應該要連帶提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
6808.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
6835.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那所以呢財政支出的權責劃分在這一次的修法裡面應該會是要是一個很重要的一個部分那舉例來講呢如果中央政府對地方的各種支出項目補助的額度到底我要不要調整那其次呢如果中央政府的收入來源減少那中央政府的權責是不是也應該要同步調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
6837.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
6852.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那如果地方政府已經體認到了中央政府的錢變少了那這些責任是不是也應該要回到地方上面來所以這個財政制度的全責劃分在這一次的修法我覺得需要稍微考慮看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
6853.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
6880.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
最後就是擴大中央統籌分配款的來源這一項理想上我們的稅收就是這樣當然它有各樣的機率的一些措施但是我們希望能夠達到是整個系統它的效益能夠最大整個系統是包含什麼整個系統是包含了中央政府以及地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
6881.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
6907.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
中央政府的考量當然是反映了整個中央的利益國家的發展地方政府的考量是反映了各個地區的發展需求所以針對這點有大概兩點跟大家來做一個討論第一個就是我們在進行這樣的分配的時候還是要去考慮到中央財政的穩健 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
6909.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
6920.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
特別是財政穩健目標是中央政府根據經濟情勢跟發展需求來制定的事實上我們要確保中央政府有足夠的財源來面對潛在的國安跟經濟風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
6925.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
6943.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
其實我們也必須考慮一下地方上面我們這個分配的時候該怎麼分配那比方說直轄市的人獲得的財政資源跟其他縣市地方政府所獲得財政資源如果差距到某種程度的時候我們是不是應該也要有一個很良好的機制來做一個轉換 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
6947.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
6971.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
整體來講我們發現整個的修法涉及到的不單單只是財政收支劃分法事實上它也有部分涉及到地方制度法公債法地方稅法通則事實上也會涉及到裡面所以如果有機會的話我們也建議一併納入檢討讓大家有更充分討論的空間以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
6974.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
6976.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
蔡群立教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7006.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7020.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
主席還有各位委員還有就各位先進大家好那我也是很榮幸能夠來參與這個財劃法的這個公聽會那我有就是拜讀的就是我們各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7022.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7023.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第1次公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7039.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7064.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
政府的一個自治的精神還有強調需要有地方政府的一個自主性還有希望能夠有足夠的地方的一個裁員以縮短這個所謂的這個縣市的一個城鄉的一個差距發展那我想也很多的縣市也會關心到就是說自己的一個縣市對於稅收的貢獻非常多但是卻發現就是收入的一個不對稱的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7067.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7067.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7088.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7091.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
政務支出、國防支出、教育、科學、文化、經濟發展、社會福利支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7108.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7116.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
社區發展及環境保護支出、退休輔助支出、債務支出、一般補助支出過去從2013年度到2012年度各項目支出的項目在稅出比例相當具有穩定性 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7133.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7134.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7159.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7185.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
在這邊的話我想要特別提出來就是以112年度來看的話其中在這九個支出裡面社會福利支出的話在27%那所謂的教育在第二個是教育科學的文化支出占19%那第三個的話最多的稅出比例的話是經濟發展的支出占18%那換言之呢我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7186.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7206.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
整個一個我想在立法院在審查這樣子一個預算的話是相當重視人民的一個社會福利還有教育科學還有經濟一個發展的一個支出那如果說所以我今天想要從一個支出面的一個想要關心這個議題上面就是說今天如果說在於 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7208.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7232.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
中央跟地方的一個財源的一個比例上面的改變的話那這樣子的話如果說是中央的一個財源減少的話相對來講的話可能在於社會福利的一個支出教育科學的一個支出跟經濟的一個發展的支出的話同時可能也會變少那相對來講的話如果是這樣變少的話我不知道就是說對於一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7233.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
7234.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
7256.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
7274.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
如果說今天把中央跟所謂的地方的一個財源的一個支出的一個比例有所改變的話可能我覺得可能也確實是要在所謂的地方制度的一個第二屆的一個地方自治的一個事項還有地方的一個稅法可能必須要跟財發法一起來做一併的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
7281.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
7298.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
如果今天所謂的這個我們把中央跟地方的這個財源的比例做了一個改變換句話就是說假設呢因應到各個委員所關心的一個議題就是希望能夠把地方的這個財源增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
7298.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
7298.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
7316.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
7316.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
7339.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
7339.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
7359.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
7362.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
中央稅收減少、國家基礎建設、總體建設減少會不會產生對於整個總體環境的改變? |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
7377.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
7405.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那另外一個就比如說我看一樣的話整個經濟支出的話比如說穩定的供電的一個系統一個建設在一個很大的一個比例那比如說在支出部分的話還有國家語言發展法勞工保險教育補助或者是住宅一個效能的一個提升這對我來講看起來都是比較像是中央在一個統一的政策那換言之就是說如果說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
7406.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
7406.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
當這個比例改變的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
7422.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
7422.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
7452.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
7452.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
7475.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
7476.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
謝謝蔡群立、蔡教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
7501.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
7518.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
接著學者專家的部分請最後一位台灣大學法律學院教授柯格中那等一下因為我們通知12點半時間到如果說教授有其他事要離開可以先行離開謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
7529.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
7557.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
謝謝主席羅委員還有各位委員各級機關的代表還有在座各位學者專家女士先生們大家好那我今天就關於財劃法的修法的部分因為我其實有提供那個簡單的PPT那我想我就按照PPT的內容大概簡單跟各位這個與會的各位先女士先生們做一個簡單報告下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
7557.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
7579.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那我先做一下財劃法目前的現況盤點因為我們大概要修法的話可能要先了解一下大概問題會出在哪裡第一個我簡單講一下說這個財劃法目前的狀態是不是會形成一個中央集權跟集權的現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
7581.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
7596.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那簡單來講這個答案是對的但我必須要講說極權跟極權這不代表違法濫用這是另外一回事情那我就舉一個例子就是說因為我們財化法目前的規定第8條第1項跟第8條第12項分別規定的國稅跟地方稅民國88年的時候我們當時候營業稅有那個總繳跟分繳的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
7605.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
7634.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我只要把12條的第一項第一款營業稅把它搬到第8條第一項第4款立刻就從地方稅變國稅他其他法律都不用動喔營業稅法都不用動這是當時的背景所以我只是說從這個客觀事項你可以看得出來立法院只要想要動國稅跟地方稅的任何一個稅目他其實透過財化法規定一個條你就把它動過來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
7635.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
7638.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
中央取得當時是地方最重要的自治稅捐的來源叫營業稅營業稅被拿掉以後才變成土增稅這個是必須要從那個歷史背景脈絡去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
7656.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
7671.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
第二件事情同樣透過立法形成第8條第2項到第4項以及第12條第2項到第6項的規定這個地方我提出來這個條文規定其實是有利於直轄市跟省轄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
7673.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
7697.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你知道為什麼嗎?我就舉那個遺產稅做例子張化縣大春鄉最近幾年有一個遺產稅正新輪胎董事長跟董娘的過世你知道這個遺產稅發下來以後是怎麼樣徵啊?大春拿八成其他兩成留給中央張化什麼都分不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
7698.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
7710.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這件事情你就會看得出來但是如果這個事情是發生在臺北市呢臺北市可以拿五層中央拿五層各位知道我的意思嗎就是說在這個地方我們是水平來比 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
7712.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
7734.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
縣會在遺產證與稅的分配裡面他一毛錢都拿不到直轄市跟省轄市沒有這個問題像新竹市跟基隆市沒有這個問題因為它下面沒有鄉鎮市可是遺產證與稅就會在縣裡面產生這個問題我再舉第二個例子契稅跟娛樂稅你去看我們的財劃法第12條的第5項跟第6項規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
7738.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
7765.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
看起來是地方的稅收本來應該在直轄市跟省轄市是他們可以收進來的哦契稅其實也沒有多少當時候蘇院長那時候還本來有在討論要不要改那個契稅的問題結果契稅是80%給誰?給徵企的鄉鎮市然後20%由縣統籌分配給鄉鎮市答案是縣也是一毛都分不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
7767.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
7795.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
娛樂稅百分之百全部都給徵起的鄉鎮市所以這個地方形成第二個問題現象城市型的地方自治團體比較有利這就是為什麼大家搶進六都的原因因為很簡單我不用再分下去我如果以彰化縣作為一個例子來做說明的話那我可以留在我彰化縣做一個統籌的我要做什麼基礎設施我也可以統籌但錢分下去你就是不能動 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
7796.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
7823.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
因為這個地方就是涉及到我們的地方制度法裡面把那個自治層級裡面分成了直轄市跟省然後第二級的縣市然後還有第三級的鄉鎮市這個如果委員們考慮這個問題的話我相信不會是只有垂池分配還有水平分配的問題第三個剛剛其實前面有委員提到財化法是沒有憲法未接的標準跟基本原則啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
7824.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
7845.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
但其實不是說完全沒有,它只是放在我們的財劃法第16條的第一項規定那個地方其實我有用一個比較簡單的、比較通俗的,其實財權劃分不是沒有基本原則你如果去看其他先進國家,財權是跟事權掛在一起的,要做事情當然要有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
7847.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
7875.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
這事情要有人要有錢他才可以做所以財權的劃分他基本上是透過財劃法的規定本來理論上是要去扣地方制度法你要做什麼事情你說要做多少事情其實我們歷年的預算都可以攤出來在這裡面不是沒有標準只是我們財劃法跟治法我們兩套法律的立法向來是各行其事沒有把它連結在一起只有一個蠻弱的一個條件是在財劃法第16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
7877.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
7879.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
財務的支出收入要對應嗎?所以德國人他就講說事務支出收入要配合在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
7896.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
7912.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
錢是這樣分的 因為做事情你總是不能讓人家巧婦難為無米之炊這個是 我要講就財權方面不是在講啊大家搶餅餅大餅小的問題是大家是中央地方夥伴關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
7913.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
7936.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
做事情本來就是你做事情你給他什麼樣子的你希望他做什麼事情你要給人家一個該有的財源劃分標準是這樣才能夠建立一個客觀明確可被依循的標準不然大家都用政治思維角度考慮的話我個人是認為這有點可惜啊然後最後面我講一個工具的 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
7937.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
7964.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
使用的問題齁因為其實財政部也沒有說真的是獨佔全部的財源他在制度的操作上他是你在劃分的時候劃不夠我用統籌分配稅款先給你補上來然後第二層次他再用那個所謂的補助款就是一般型補助款或是專案補助款或是計畫型補助款那我只是要講一下因為補助這個事情比較沒有法律上的依據啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
7965.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
7987.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
補助其實它原來的用意是政策性補助因為中央可能會有一些政策它希望你配合比如說舉個簡單例子來講它希望你們自己蓋一些捷運設施那我要給你這筆錢通常會希望你也要有一個自籌款項你不夠那我就支援你這樣一個政策上的補助所以它是有特定目的的 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
7987.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8009.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
但今天我們要談論的問題是我們如何透過我們國家既有的這些稅收能夠去做合理的劃分讓至少地方自治團體為了要滿足事務商的需求他是有足夠的至少一定程度上的經費去完成這個工作這個才是基本上不是黨派考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8009.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8010.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
科格宗科教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8040.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8066.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們今天的公聽會其實與會的專家學者都有準備充分的書面資料有需要的可以再跟蔡委會這邊來拿另外就是現場的與會人員因為也12點多了請一邊用餐不要客氣那因為符合時代潮流就是要充分討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8067.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8079.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好 我們就充分討論 讓所有的委員講到今天發言完畢 我們會議才結束不要客氣 好不好 盡量講下一位請立委 牛許廷謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8089.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8118.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
財政收支劃分法上一次修法是民國88年 超過20幾年沒有修正那麼2022年的7月 時任民進黨主席蘇貞昌率領6個民進黨縣市代表包含台南市長賴清德 嘉義市長張花冠 雲林縣長蘇志芬屏東縣長曹啟宏 高雄市副市長李永德 宜蘭縣副縣長吳哲成以及民進黨黨團總召柯建民 幹事長潘孟安 召開記者會說真抱歉 我們就是這麼窮要求當初的國民黨政府儘速通過財政收支劃分法的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8119.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8136.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
當初我蘇貞昌的內容講說人應該生而平等站在台灣因為出生在不同的縣市有不公平不平等還不是因為山川地理的限制是因為中央主政者用制度用法律用資源分配造成的不平等而且越來越不平等就算立法院做成決議也不處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8138.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8158.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
20109年修改《地質法》讓縣市合併升格時立法院就已經做出決議要求兩個月內要修正《財化法》到當初2012年已經超過三年都沒有修很遺憾喔這12年過去了還是沒有修那麼賴清德總統過去2017年擔任行政院長的時候曾經說要均衡地方發展的三個面向第一行政區重劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8159.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8186.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
第2修正財化法第3叫地方創生那當院長下台時都還沒有看到財化法的修正版本希望他當總統的時候可以看到財化法有個像樣的進度我們都清楚給人釣竿不如教他如何釣魚中央向大家長縣市政府向他的小孩要真正當大人不是通通把錢給父母由父母來分配而是小孩要自己學著管理財政自己學著面對問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8188.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8206.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我們也知道巧複難為無米之炊地方政府沒有充足的財政收入那怎麼樣去調整產業結構怎麼樣注意收支平衡我們更不希望財政支出黑箱化每次都跟中央用喬的這裡搶資源那裡搶資源而導致各縣市間產生不公平的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8208.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8231.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
應該讓這個有能力的縣市得到多資源若是縣市尋求中央的協助我想才是正辦這也是為什麼我們希望財政收支劃分法能夠修正的重要的原因這個財務法的修正是活絡縣市發展的重要法案也是落實地方政治的里程碑民進黨在野的時候曾經大聲呼籲如今執政希望趕快兌現這是本期要講的第一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8232.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8257.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
第二個重點是我們剛剛很多學者也討論到集錢集權的這個遊戲規則它的政策效果我們必須要說目前的機制缺乏公平性國庫國稅的收入超過3兆但地方分配的資源從10年前的35%到今年只降到28%是為垂直不均而其中直轄市又比縣市分配到多許多只為水平不均 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8259.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
8277.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
財政收支劃分分配就是要讓中央主導米平城鄉差距米平區域發展不均衡的問題可是現況觀之我們過去這麼長時間20幾年都使用這樣子的一套遊戲規則請問政策效果何在我們真的有平衡城鄉差距嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
8278.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
8306.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
看起來是沒有嘛看起來人口還是往六都拼命的集中偏鄉的時候不是人口流失就是人口老化顯然這一套集錢的遊戲規則沒有辦法拉近區域間發展的不公平不正義那為什麼不換一個思維給予地方政府更多的財政權限呢讓相對優勢的直轄市有更好的財政自主權讓相對弱勢的縣市得到更多中央的補助也許是一條可以走的出路這是我們講的第二個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
8307.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
8325.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
第三個重點我們歷任財政部長都講說要修正這個法令想要達成全國所有地方政府的共識但是大家都清楚要達成共識那需要時間誰知道當政府終於達成共識的時候這些地方政府還撐不撐得下去我作為桃園的民意代表幫桃園講講話我們桃園最晚升格 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
8328.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
8343.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
在分配的戰略位置上其實是非常非常不利的簡單來說五都把餅都分完了我們才升格所以常常不管是統籌分配稅或者是一般補助款我們都叫萬年老六六都最末那在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
8344.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
8345.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
財政收支劃分法修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
8361.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
8387.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
後來經過國民黨黨團統整各個縣市再也縣市的這個版本之後我們財政局長主動告訴我他說這個部分我們就不再堅持了為什麼因為要統整各縣市的共識本身就是一件非常艱鉅的工程我們主張工業其他人主張農業其他人主張老人到最後沒完沒了無法達成共識所以這是國民黨版本可貴之處在於至少在地方已經做了初步的版本統合 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
8388.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
8409.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我們作為桃園人我們都願意妥協這國民黨的版本橫跨16個縣市財政局的大抵共識橫跨了城、鄉、離島其實已經具備了中華民國一定的代表性所以我們希望已經有初步共識了這樣子的法律修正更不應該再等 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
8410.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
8432.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
希望財政部可以好好成全我們所有的立法委員都會希望財化法趕快進行修正還給地方公平正義讓各地政府有更高的財政自主權能夠大展拳腳 促進地方自治的品質以上 謝謝好 謝謝 牛許廷 牛委員接著請王美惠 王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
8439.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
8456.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
主席 大家 專家大家好 跟我們各縣市我們的主管或是副市長 副縣長跟我們在座我們的同仁 大家好在這兩天 我覺得今天的工作財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
8458.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
8470.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
財政收支劃分法的時候今天我認為表達的就是一定要去照顧任何官司的財政和財政因為我覺得普通 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
8476.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
8491.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
雖然說很久沒去修、沒去做什麼,我們不能說因為很久沒去修,我們跟立法院說不用修尤其我來自自己家,因為說實在,我們經常,我是有議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
8496.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
8496.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
8516.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
8517.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
8543.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
8545.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
財政發分法的事 我覺得有需要大家要探討一下 要做一下因為這二十幾年來 我看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
8556.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
8577.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
您所有的資料本身有看到很多關切的以我自己來說因為我自己沒有兄弟我自己有姑娘所以在分配的當中自己分配都是最重要的雖然我們做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
8582.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
8597.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
市長也好 館長也好 都希望簽簽還簽的當中 沒看到中央公平的眼神所以這是非常困難 我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
8598.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
8607.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
不公平在這 常常我們都說 叫立法院那邊去跟立法院分辨多 跟分到多少 到有多少在這裡修所在 因為我認為我們要讓修所在也有競爭力 也有主權 所以說 普通在本社所說的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
8625.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
8637.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
最主要﹐讓受討伺的人﹐也有尊重的空間尤其是高利貸﹐你看到高利貸﹐高利貸現在漸漸的發展﹐但不是高利貸沒有認證﹐高利貸﹐包括市長﹐市長帶領和所有的負責也很認真﹐但經常﹐他要建設的時候﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
8655.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
8664.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
都要他的配合款﹚所以在這個會期內﹚承擔很多建設的配合款的錢﹚都是非常無價 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
8668.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
8673.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以我也願意在未來修法時﹐可以讓自己再發生的阻礙因為在自己來說﹐法官司都有兄弟來分配﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
8685.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
8686.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
8707.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
8708.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
在此,我們有特別的同仇款應該是結束後,應該若存,還要分給當地 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
8718.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
8738.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
的地方兼是以秩序和修立所以這才可以解決他們財政的問題所以我希望我們的中央如果要做什麼建設應該是中央要做中央出資不然你如果像高利貸來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
8740.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
8744.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
請提督告知 每天都說要錢要配合 配合之後 地方要再負擔很多所以我希望未來的財政 能夠對各縣市財政一個劃分 因為我認為是我們國會的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
8761.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
8770.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
不只是自己的事是每一位我們都要照顧到也不只分到最後差距越來越大以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
8777.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
8793.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
很感謝王美惠、王委員、嘉義市很辛苦的,大家盡量到三天盡處一會因為王市長有幾百個電話號碼,每次找我他說他的困難很多,我們共同來關心,為嘉義市加油,謝謝接著請林思明林委員新竹縣加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
8810.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
8824.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好謝謝我們主席各位與會的各位學者專家還有我們各位委員財政部莊部長以及各縣市的各位代表大家好我想這個財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
8826.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
8840.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
從民國88年修正到現在已經25年未做任何的修正了我們相較當時的未配合精神而公佈實行的地方制度法 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
8841.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
8867.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
都已經修正了14次行政區劃早已從2都22個縣市現在修訂為6都16個縣市所以我們的財政收支劃分法實在已經不具有中央補助地方的精神與成效而有加以適時的修正的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
8869.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
8890.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那我想這樣的完全適合的分配機制不僅無法協助我們各個地方政府解決長期財源偏低與債務負債的問題也更加拉鋸大城鄉區域間的發展差異所以我在這一次我有提出了修法的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
8891.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
8898.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
國稅與地方稅的部分的修改重點包含將營業稅總收入與減除依法提撥之統一發票給獎的獎金後的全部餘額由中央統籌分配給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
8913.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
8926.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
也刪除現行應繳給中央統籌分配給各縣市的20%的土地增值稅條文將土地增值稅稅收改為全部歸直轄縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
8928.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
8942.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
此外,我們也沒有忽略離島縣市的需求,也提案將金門及連江二線徵得的菸酒稅收入改為在減除1%作為積增以及查緝經費後的80%分配給各該縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
8946.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
8972.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
而中央統籌分配稅款也應該以總額的98%列為普通統籌分配稅款並且也要根據合理的公式做透明化的分配關於區域制建設計畫或合作事項亦應優先予以補助或其他必要之協助讓我們各地方能夠更均衡的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
8974.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
8985.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們有看到許多委員的提案但是我比較遺憾的就是我們財政部針對各委員的版本說那個也不行這個也不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
8988.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9009.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
繼續拖延所以我在這邊要建議財政部財政部我希望你不要說只動腦不想動腦提出修法的版本那如果說你要繼續批評我們各委員會各委員的版本那為何不利用各委員提案的內容去整合出一個可以討論的方向或者是版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9011.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9025.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
甚至我也建議可以將2017年當時的行政院林全院長已經準備好的版本重新拿出來這個也可以啊所以我請財政部要去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9026.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9026.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9042.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9068.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那我以我新竹縣為例新竹縣是我們繳稅最多的一個縣新竹縣的發展也特別的快因為新竹縣我們有很多的科技的產業園區當然有AI智慧園區有鳳山工業園區有新竹的虎口工業園區有台元科技園區還有竹科台積電的二三級也在我們新竹縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9070.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9088.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以新竹縣可以說繳稅真的是非常非常的多但是我要在這邊跟大家報告新竹縣各位猜一猜新竹縣分配到的統籌分配稅款只有多少新竹縣快60萬人口新竹縣只分配到55.77億 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9091.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9115 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
全國報數第一名阿全國人均最少的不到一萬塊其他各縣市都超過一萬塊新竹縣只有九千多塊所以可見這個統籌分配稅款對新竹縣來講或者剛才王美惠講的嘉義市是多麼的不合理所以我希望說財政部能盡速 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9116.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
9134.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
就今天這個公聽會各專家學者的意見以及我們所有立委提出的相關的修法的一個建議希望財政部能夠採納最好財政部你就提出一個我們的公版或者你提出一個公式到底我們財化法要怎麼修 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
9136.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
9148.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
請財政部真的要積極加快腳步因為這個財化法如果不修我想這種惡性的循環各縣市叫苦連天會不斷的循環的上演 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
9152.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
9165.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
大家會一直呼籲說財劃法要來修正所以以上建議財政部也積極加快的就財劃法的修正能夠有更好的一個修正的一個版本以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
9176.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
9190.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
林詩明 林委員 因為新竹縣是相對也是很辛苦的也請大家多多來支持新竹縣 為新竹縣加油接著請楊瓊英 楊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
9195.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
9195.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
楊瓊玉 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
9216.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
9217.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
9239.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
9240.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
中央分配 中央提60% 地方拿40% 之後中央分 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
9267.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
9285.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
分配給地方的補助款就逐年再下降地方分配只剩下25%多15%再回歸給中央造成縣市自有裁員的不足而且預算的短差在過去的10年國稅的成長成長了多少成長了104%地方的稅只成長多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
9290.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
9291.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
9310.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
9311.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
9329.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
9348.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
城市發展 都市轉型 淨零碳排 這些重責大任在自治事項裡頭 跟委辦的事項也逐年的一直在膨脹但攸關的中央跟地方財政分配的財劃法卻沿用的舊有的財政規劃實在是難以來承擔 擔起新世紀的一個挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
9355.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
9359.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以我們看到中央政府在111年裡頭國家總收入 達到多少 達到了3.20兆國稅的部分有2.82兆元 佔的佔比是85%地方的稅收僅有多少 4047億元 佔比15% |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
9375.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
9381.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
中央給地方的統籌分配款上面補加上喔還要再加上補助稅款來看在112年去年度裡頭只有佔多少 佔28.1% |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
9393.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
9394.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
中央給地方統籌分配款逐年降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
9414.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
9441.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
並越做越大的時候但是它的分配比例是不增反減這個邏輯太奇怪了中央超增竟然補助給地方的是不增反減地方政府為了要配合中央政府的施政事項越來越多所以因此地方財務卻沒有增加的情況之下地方政府我們要如何的來協助中央政府推動的國家政策呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
9442.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
9467.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
所以我在這邊要特別本席提出財政是輸政之母地方政府缺乏健全的財政來作為後盾導致一切的施政都是無法展開的情況之下為了要建設地方必須仰賴中央的筆息關係好一點就多給一點關係差一點就以公式來分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
9468.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
9496.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
給多少都要看行政院的心情這樣的做法不利於整個地方財政的一個規劃導致窮縣會越來越窮人口外流也會越來越嚴重這都是全國民眾所必須要負擔的那財政草案分法已經超過了25年未修正中央應該要聽進去地方政府的心聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
9497.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
9525.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
事出財源改善集權集錢的這個現象考慮中央財政耐性之餘也要將地方財政的需求納入考量第一則可避免中央繼續的偏私濫權二則可讓地方掌控更多的自主發展的一個主機這一點是非常重要所以以上是本席的一個建言也敬請大家來參佐 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
9531.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
9540.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
感謝臺中市的楊瓊英 楊委員因為未來臺中市的發展也非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
9541.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
9559.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
各式的建設都大幅的推動今天的投資是為了明天的成長所以也請各位委員給臺中市多多的支持多多的爭取多多的愛護謝謝楊秋英 楊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
9564.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
9591.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
下一位是羅敏草委員發言我就在上面講幾句話因為時間的關係其實政治最重要就是要和諧地方要的就是要進步國家的未來發展就是經濟要蓬勃的發展這幾天我們看到NVIDIA的黃仁勛 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
9593.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
9619.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
黃董事長他來台灣台灣我們很高興可是台灣的未來他為什麼會選擇在台灣我們要讓城鄉的發展在高雄也好在台中也好每個地方都應該要大幅度的起飛我都曾經還建議過NVIDIA的亞洲區的總裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
9620.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
9644.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我問你可不可以把NVIDIA的總部或者是現在6月7號大概一分十可不可以有一些股票在台灣上市或者是有更大的未來AI的計畫可以落腳在台灣那要怎麼做當然是要讓台灣均衡的發展每個地方都搶起來都富起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
9646.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
9671.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以今天本席在這裡召開這樣的會議那麼多的委員那麼多的專家學者所講的建議我不但通通接受我還繼續要努力來達成大家全民的願望在這裡要代表全民向財政部莊部長大聲喊話25年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
9672.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
9695.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九部長我們還要等多久拜託拜託拜託所以我最後就是幾句話最重要的重點講三次莊部長加油莊部長加油莊部長加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
9696.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
9725.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
公聽會你如果覺得有需要的話因為我以前是跑馬拉松的我是不斷電的我奉陪到底一天兩天我都可以但是你還是要有版本提出來因為這個立法院的運作二三十年來大家都很清楚該討論的我們已經清楚的表達清楚的討論大概講來講去都是大概這樣子結論就是一個這地方缺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
9727.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
9747.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
解決的方法很簡單中央就合理的給錢就OK啦不要不給不理會版本不提出那就是繼續大家又在對抗所以我剛講的那幾句話也請部長聽進去政治要和諧地方要發展經濟要進步謝謝接下來請高金樹梅委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
9761.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
9778.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
謝謝主席辛苦了也謝謝今天在場的所有公聽會的各部會的還有專家學者們我覺得今天主席來開這個公聽會就是聽大家的意見剛剛您的議席話本席也聽到了我覺得非常的有道理但是我身為一個原住民的立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
9780.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
9781.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
原住民立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
9802.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
9827.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
也能夠好好聽一下這個民主是我國立國的根本我們用選舉的方式然後呢多數人來決定同時呢也要尊重個人跟少數人的權利為原則這個叫做民主但是呢也因為民主選舉的制度也造成了自然資源或者是我們的財政資源自然而然它就往人多的地方去挹注 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
9829.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
9846.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
相對的人少的鄉市鎮區就會變得非常窮困而因為沒有稅收收入的我講的是六都的三地原住民區更是苦不堪言我們目前沒有一個橫貧的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
9847.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
9848.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
9863.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
9887.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我看到的是我們的政府以來長期忽視了原住民族這個民族的存在的事實而且呢用所謂的地方制度法來切割各原住民族的族別就如我自己所屬的泰雅族可能大家不太知道我屬的泰雅族呢就被切割在7個縣市的12個鄉鎮市區所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
9892.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
9910.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
以足的未來的文化各方面來說的話它其實被裂解、被切割的跟別談我們的政府也支持原住民族的自治如果在今天我們所謂的財政收支劃分法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
9914.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
9922.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
長期以來,地方制度法或財政收支劃分法將會把原住民族切割不成樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
9923.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
9950.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我為什麼說地方制度法對於原住民族而言它是一個災難呢我們先看一下在2010年的時候在2010年的時候我們為了要配合直轄市的改制因此六都的三地原住民區它就曾經被迫喪失了它的自治地位這導致了一個民族卻有兩套地方自治的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
9951.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
9951.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
9970.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
9997.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
陶淵不管是在新北不管是在這個高雄台中地區我們有六個都我們回復了我們的參政權可是呢當時呢是在各黨團折衝的這個快速的這個的這個的結果之下呢六都三地原住民的財政區四項我們就缺少了稅收收入來源的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
9999.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
10014.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
也因此地方制度法對六都三地原住民區產生了財政上的不公平怎麼樣不公平嗎因為六都三地原民區沒有自主財源它只能依據地方制度法第83條之7由直轄市來受算 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
10018.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
10036.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
補助給六都的三地原住民區然後用這個來維持改制前的統籌分配財源的水準可是呢 補助的額度卻是任憑直轄市政府他自己的意願來編列這是事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
10038.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
10055.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
另外我也看到了中央統籌分配稅款的分配辦法對於55個原住民族地區的財政分配的困境我們先來看直轄市的普通統籌稅款如果按照各項指標的競爭來決定分配的額度的話土地面積市佔20%這是直轄市的 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
10060.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
10060.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
10079.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
10093.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
然而我們的高雄市政府用這個所謂的土地面積他跟中央爭取到了統籌分配稅款可是他沒有按照同等的比例來回饋高雄市的這三個園鄉區 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
10096.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
10122.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
同樣的一般的縣市也是利用原鄉的土地的面積在中央取到了統籌分配稅款之後實際回到了地方政府他也沒有按照土地面積來給足其他鄉同樣額度的分配款我講到這個大家應該都在點頭了我看到足記中央在點頭了你們都很清楚我們的所謂的中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
10123.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
10147.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
中央統籌分配稅款有幾個比例土地直轄市土地是在20%一般縣市是在35%可是這些地方政府拿了這樣子的資源分配的這個比例去跟中央要錢可是中央回到地方上來的時候卻沒有按照土地面積給應該要有的原鄉地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
10148.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
10166.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
如果按照這樣子的比例來說﹖不管是我們六都的山地區﹖或者是一般原住民鄉鎮﹖他要分配到的統籌分款﹖不會像現在這樣子的一個額度因此各縣市政府在講財源不公平的同時﹖請你們也回過頭來想一想﹖你們對於一般鄉鎮﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
10170.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
10170.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
10191.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
10215.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
然後來研議合理的分配方案然後來規劃實質的平等的財政制度這樣子才會符合憲法徵修條文的精神跟原住民族轉型正義的目的我很高興今天代表原住民的族人在這邊幫我們55個原鄉包括六都的原住民區來這邊把他們的聲音告訴在場的各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
10216.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
10243.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
行政部門以及專家學者也請召委下次我們要來提到這個要來這個這個修正財政收支劃分法的時候一定要把這個土地的面積好好的講一下然後並且也要求地方政府按照他們如何跟中央爭取的比例就應該按照怎麼樣的比例分配給這個所謂的鄉鎮市政府以上我的發言謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
10245.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
10264.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
謝謝高金素美委員也希望剛剛的花園部長應該也都聽進去了多多來照顧我們所有園鄉的朋友真的是很辛苦啊平均的壽命也比較少一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
10265.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
10265.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
10285.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
10301.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
對,速度很快反而這個2300萬人的大家熬待補的經費的問題希望速度更快一點多多照顧一下上次幾個版本算起來需要的大概就是2600多億國民黨的黨版是大概有5777億那民眾黨的部分大概是2700億 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
10307.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
10322.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
對中央來講都是為乎其為啦我都跟部長講缺錢你來找我嘛因為我手上有很多的檢舉信啊移政稅的啦還有很多的地的這個國有地可以處理的那個一下子都五千億八千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
10325.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
10352.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
對,我們稅收年年超徵希望大家一起來努力加油,謝謝感謝,謝謝高金素美的委員那因為我們現在充分討論當然還沒有委員還沒發言的可以趕快過來發言因為我們就是不斷電的討論充分的發言讓大家講夠、講足這就是很開放的 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
10353.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
10358.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
而不曉得現場或者是院內還沒有委員要發言的可以趕快來發言有沒有委員要發言都沒有人要發言了齁我們都充分的討論了齁接著因為大家都發言完畢請行政機關回應請財政部莊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
10390.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
10394.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
主席、各位委員以及我們各地方政府的財政夥伴們 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
10395.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
10422.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
專家學者大家都離開了以及我們財政部還有媒體朋友們大家夥伴大家好我想非常感謝我們今天羅昭偉安排這樣的一個公聽會邀請我們各地方政府以及專家學者對有關財政收支劃分法的修正都提出意見那我也覺得很好來這邊聽我們各地方政府他們在地方的財政上實務上的一些需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
10422.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
10423.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
法律面、經濟面、行政面、各個面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
10434.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
10435.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
財政收支劃分法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
10454.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
10454.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
財政部﹑財政學者們 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
10482.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
10484.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
請回應一下今天公聽會討論的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
10513.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
10540.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
主席、閣委員還有各縣市的代表大家好剛剛學者其實也有提到一個修正還是要考慮到市群分配的問題如果說照國民黨的版本一下要釋出五千多億的話相對的中央的稅出可能也要減到五千多億那這個是非常非常的困難的所以後面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
10542.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
10563.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
後面的事宜我們會配合財政部檢討的結果,我們會適時提供建議以上報告好,謝謝主計總處好,那現在相關政府機關都已經做回應了還有兩位嗎?哪一位? |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
10566.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
10571.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
請內政部接續,國防會要回應嗎?好請內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
10580.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
10606.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
主席各位與會先進內政部報告的確中央與地方的事權劃分是跟財源的分配是彼此聯動的今天在座的學者專家還有各位委員所提到有關於事權的檢討這一塊是有關於我們地方制度法的部分我們會帶回去做一些研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
10607.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
10617.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
日後我們也會配合財化法的相關的討論然後進行我們地方制度法看看是不是有一些配套的處理以上報告好 謝謝聶貞布接著請國家發財委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
10640.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
10667.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
主席好﹖還有各位委員﹖還有在座的與會先進﹖跟大家午安國防會在這邊基本上很感謝今天有這個機會來這邊來聽取各﹖還有主席很感謝主席邀集各地方政府的一個代表所以聽取了很多寶貴的意見本會未來還是持續與會先尊重主政機關的一個延期意見以及到大運的決定以上報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
10668.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
10670.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝國發會接著我們為了要達到充分討論請問現場委員有沒有要再繼續發言的有 請吳立華吳委員其他委員如果要再繼續發言不要停繼續來登記發言到充分發言為止 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
10694.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
10714.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
謝謝主席昭偉在場財政部以及各縣市局處的各位好朋友大家午安我是原住民選出來的山地原住民立法委員今天特別感謝昭偉安排這樣的一個公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
10716.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
10716.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
10731.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
10732.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
立法院第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
10750.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
10774.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
因為我們財化法我們都說他已經歷經25年從來都沒有修訂但是在這個當中地制法已經歷經了15次的修訂原住民在這個當中從過去的兩都變六都的時候有四個原鄉區他呢一度失去了公法人的地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
10775.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
10799.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
在大家嘩然之下感謝過去的立委們在2014年又把它再度修法把直轄市的園民區改回公法人可是在這個當中修法的時候有辣掉了一些東西造成現在他們的困境像我們以高雄市的桃園區為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
10801.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
10827.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
他過去改制前稅客收入70%結果呢改回來恢復公法人地位之後他的稅客收入就0取消那為什麼會這樣子最主要的原因是因為在2014年恢復公法人的時候地制法的第83條之2第一項寫得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
10828.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
10846.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
準用本法關於鄉鎮市的規定他恢復了可是呢在第二款財政事項的地方他卻把過去的稅捐公共債漏掉了沒有寫那我們回去看當年的討論資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
10849.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
10865.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
財政部當年修法的時候有承諾原住民區是財政自治的黨團協商的時候也去主張可以恢復獨立自主穩定財源因此我們再細看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
10866.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
10892.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
現在的問題是出在竟然當年地制法第83條之7他寫著這麼一段話他說直轄市改制前各該山地鄉前三年度的稅客收入平均稅客收入平均那細看我們再細看過去財政還不怎麼樣的時候我們發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
10893.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
10917.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
直轄市的園區跟一般縣市的園鄉沒有什麼差異可是這幾年當國家財政進步的時候各位可以看到這幾年我們發現他們都可以高達6000萬以上的差距而且有可能未來的差距會越來越高因此我就提出了一個修法的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
10918.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
10918.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
10938.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
10943.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我們希望不要只找縣市應該要把直轄市有園民區的這些區公所要把他們請過來單獨開會聽取他們的意見並且納入修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
10953.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
10978.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
在這裡我當然也了解我必須也要在地質法裡面同步的去做修正這個部分我也是在地質法的第83條之3有把稅捐公共債的自治事項再把它納回來總之我在這個地方做這樣的一個發言就是要來呼應這一次的財化法修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
10978.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
11004.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我覺得關於過去的這個疏漏 修法的疏漏 召委 主席還有我們的財政部 還有我們的各縣市局處希望能夠來支持 來響應 來積極的推動因為這個是最沒有爭議的部分 不需要跟大家做一個太多的討論那我做這樣的一個說明 讓大家能夠更清楚更了解 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
11006.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
11029.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好,謝謝吳立華吳委員好,那經過充分討論依據立法院職權刑事法第58條規定委員會因於公聽會終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
11030.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
11051.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者所以我們會把今日與會者所有寶貴的發言意見作為未來修法之參考並會邊陳冊送交本院全體委員及今日出席 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
11051.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
11054.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
再次感謝各位學者、專家及政府機關代表的出席謝謝大家 散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
11084.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
11087.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
法定人數不足 |