| IVOD_ID |
15985 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15985 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
30 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-05T08:30:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-05T12:36:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:05:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc558f108d180b0e1b9e2506b9d78cd73c3be8d109af184be40178b6bc23ea54b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。
二、繼續併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。
（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:31 - 12:36:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1821.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1841.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會出席委員8人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第一會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年6月3日星期一上午9時至12時13分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員謝委員龍介等12人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1847.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1873.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
貼習委員鄭委員天才等三人、列席官員法務部政務司長徐錫祥等人、主席中召集委員嘉賓。報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定,討論事項繼續併案審查、行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案等四案。決議一、進行逐條審查。二、第一條之第四條、第六條之第23條及第25條之第31條均照行政院提案通過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1874.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1899.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
三（第五條及第二十四條均保留送院會處理。四（台灣民眾黨黨團提案增定第七條之一不予採納。五（通過附帶決議二項。六（本案審查完具擬具審查報告提請院會公決。需交由黨團協商。院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明。七（次引數條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及議事人員整理。宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1902.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1917.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好,意思如我們稍後確定接下來介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員那應邀列席官員的部分呢我們介紹法務部政部長歡迎您還有法務部黃常務次長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1919.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1921.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1938.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1963.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案。」好。那麼先做本次會議議事日程的說明。本次議程討論事項原列兩案。那因第二案繼續併案審查行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案等案。業餘本週一本會第29次全體委員會議審查完略。今日僅處理第一案審查行政院函請審議的科技偵查及保障法草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1964.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1969.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好那現在進行機關代表報告時間三分鐘有請法務部正部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1975.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2004.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天奉邀列席那個大院貴委員會就行政院函請審理的科技偵查及保障法草案議案代表本部列席報告並被質詢請提供提供本部意見進行指教那主要是科技偵查科技發展日系因為很多犯罪利用新興的科技造成更大危害所以更多的被害人比如說我們現在國人聲通二絕的詐欺犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2005.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2028.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
就利用這些科技隱秘形狀製造斷點司法機關難以用傳統法法來查緝遇到重大的一個一個極大的一個瓶頸所以必要給司法機關一個合法的工具對科技犯罪與科技的一個反制有效追溯犯罪以確保國家安全及維護人民生命財產的一個安全也讓偵查機關善用這些科技而不濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2029.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2041.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
在打擊犯罪的同時落實基本權的一個保障這是這部的科技偵查保障法草案最重要的一個目的。那第二就是行政院函請審議的科技的一個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2042.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2071.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
一個草案的最主要的一個要點有第二條我們規定以科技方法譬如說以GPS追蹤位置可以追蹤榨汽車所的車輛一個去處如果不是超過24連續24小時累計為超過兩日的極短追蹤那這樣檢調檢警就可以依職權來實施可以避免錯失黃金時期超過24小時2日就必須要申請法官保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2071.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2090.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 規定對手機調查的一個要件跟程序這就是要規範利用AIM化車對詐欺機房訊息及手機定位或與AIM化車調查手機的序號SIM卡的號碼這也是採法官的一個保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2091.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2111.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那再來是草案第四條規範會以實體侵入的一個方式例如熱顯示以的測溫度從事外對室內的一個空間的一個調查那這樣可以可以對對譬如說以台版柬埔災案可以需要以熱顯示以對室內測高溫來救被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2111.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2129.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那再來就是台灣的規定法院許可書應記載的事項許可書應將使用的科技方法調查標的及裝置裝設的方式來展明反映可以在許可書對執行人做適當的限制或指示 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2131.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2155.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那再來如果說遇到緊（執法機構遇到緊迫情形呢也可以呢在實施三日內呢緊急實施科技偵查之後呢在實施三日內向法院來申請補發許可許可是這也可以可以避免吼那個那個負以那個受調查對科技偵查作為的一個一個一個作為那犯罪者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2156.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2179.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第一個勇於嘗試創新科技人那犯罪手法推陳初心這個是執法機關的一個一個必須要一個一個執法機關社會人民都因且期盼有這個新的科技偵查法的一個一個通過立法我想這個可以保障國家人民的一個一個一個達到一個目的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2182.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2202.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
好謝謝政部長接下來請司法院刑事廳廳長李廳長報告主席各位委員各位先進今天貴委員會審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2208.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2223.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
審議科技偵查及保障法草案 本院奉邀前來列席深感榮幸之就本次會議就本院有關的業務提出書面報告有關於行政院函請審議的科技偵查及保障法草案的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2223.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2252.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那因為伴隨著新興的科技發展造成犯罪手段的多樣的危害性那相應的新興的科技收證的方法及必要性那就非常的高所以科技偵查相較於傳統的手段可能對人民憲法上的基本權的產生甚大的影響那依法治國的原則卻由於法律保留立法規定的必要並依其影響基本權的程度為層級化的授權審查跟救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2253.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2254.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
檢查及保障法草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2273.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2279.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
檢查及保障法草案案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2301.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2330.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好謝謝李廳長那麼其餘的請送交書面報告機關來我們就列入記錄那機關報告代表報告完畢我們相關的書面報告內容都列入公報記錄那機關報告我們現在開始詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的我們先 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2331.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2332.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2365.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2390.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主席我們先請政務長好請政務長委員早部長早齁這個我們今天齁我們主席所安排的這個有關於科技偵查及保障法的審查是那這個我們行政院在5月9號齁這個行政院通過這個所謂打詐新司法那在5月17 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2392.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2416.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們立法院這個院會一讀來交付我們本委員會來審查那我在這邊想要比較首先請教這個部長就是說這個像這個科技偵查法他其實除了跟這個詐欺犯隊有高高度相關之外另外他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2418.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2418.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
刑事偵查及證據能力刑事偵查及證據能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2439.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2457.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那我們把這我們在這個在這次這整個立法過程中我們把這個科技偵查及保障法放到打詐司法裡面一定有他的道理因為他本來這所謂科技偵查應該本來是應該是一個整個整個這個形式訴訟裡面的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2458.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2468.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
一個這個有關強制偵查的相關規定以及他的證據能力的相關規定。那現在為什麼會放在打炸事法裡面?這能不能請部長說明一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2470.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2498.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
謝謝委員齁那個因為整個詐欺罪在整個一個犯罪的比例是非常大而且人們也非常的一個痛恨那顯而一個詐團以及一個詐欺的一個手法也日新月異這些他們是會善用那個最新的一個科技那我們現在一定要科科真法的一個一個設一個一個制定齁可以及時來因應來做一個打擊的一個利器那譬如說我們有有那個GPSM化車還有一些的熱線性以這這部分可以針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2499.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2509.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
最新的一個詐團的這些犯罪形態予以做一個壓制。」好那是不是我們今天警政署有來了我們警政署是不是今天是副署長來請陳副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2513.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2540.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
對不起因為剛剛部長講的這個就就牽涉到我們直接在這個詐欺犯罪的偵查當中的這個這個細節所以我想想要了解啦齁因為我們既然把這個科技偵查放到這個這個打詐釋法裡面表示這個我們目前在在這個防制詐欺犯罪上面科技偵查事實上已經變成非常重要的一個關鍵了是的我想請這個警政署這邊說明齁像什麼案例例如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2542.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2569.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們這個GPS追蹤器為什麼他他這個是必要在在偵辦過程中必要為什麼M化車定位為什麼重要熱顯像儀在這個這個整個偵辦過程中扮演什麼樣的角色像現在的詐欺他主要是領錢所以他就會有輪流跟車流包括車手所以我們要能夠即時的掌握他的行蹤那像這個GPS就可以我發揮我這個即時的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2569.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2572.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
如果沒有GPS我們要掌握他們這樣車手換來換去是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2573.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2577.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2600.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2619.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個人去監控的話像現在這種像這種新興的這種魯人的魯人跟這個魯人犯罪相結合的這種詐欺犯罪這個熱選相宜他的功能是什麼對對他的他像這個就是說現在詐欺集團大概都是複合式的那像之前這個柬埔寨這個案我們淡水破了這個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2622.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2623.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2645.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2665.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
現在目前國人這麼痛恨詐欺而且詐欺犯罪橫行的狀況之下我們在整個偵辦過程當中確實已經如果沒有用俯以這個科技偵查恐怕我們以我們的人力跟我們的能力是沒有科技偵查是難以難以防制的所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2666.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2674.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
如果這個科技偵查法一直沒有通過他會有一些問題像我們事實上過去也已經有什麼司法院有好幾個判決好幾個判決對於這個有關使用這個M化車好像這個110年度的4549號判決然後那GPS追蹤器這106年的3788 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2685.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2703.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
也都在判決當中判定這些科這些科技偵查他不符合形式送法規定所以把他的證據能力變成無效這個是已經有確定的判決了所以所以我們目前要應該要盡快的通過這個科技偵查法或者是把科技偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2704.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2720.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 規定,放在刑事訴訟法裏面也可以。但是不管怎麼樣,我們有這個科技偵查的法律授權非常重要對不對,副長。對,這個的確就是因為我們那個犯罪的一個調查方式,絕對不能落後於 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2722.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2749.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
否則我們在偵查過程中就像游泳在追遊艇一樣這個詐騙集團在開著遊艇跑我們偵辦人員在游泳後面追這個是難以沒有經過透過這個科技偵查是很難防制這樣子的詐欺犯罪但是這個我想等一下在審查過程中大家還是我們目前委員會裡面的成員大家對於這個究竟是要訂立一個專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2750.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2776.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
一個像我們今天這樣子一個科技偵查保障法或者是把它列在形式訴訟法形式訴訟法裡面再增列一個這個科技偵查專章讓他跟作為這個一個強制強制偵查的一個一個整體規範這部分部長怎麼樣看法為什麼今天最後我們選擇為什麼最後我們選擇用定力專法而不是納入形式訴訟法一定有我們的理由啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2777.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2799.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
謝謝委員我想定裝法跟定在刑訴這是一個政策的一個一個立法的選擇選擇但是我們認為是定裝法是比較適當的因為對最主要是因為整個一個科技的發展資訊因應我們即使因應整一個犯罪的手法的一個壓制所以我們希望定裝法齁這個這個速度齁會整個立法的速度會比較快對細部的事項會比較做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2802.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2829.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 規範,法務部主管法規,我們也是希望對偵查這部分我們比較了解,所以我們定裝法的話可以及時去因應這個犯罪形態的處理,這個是有必要性的。這個其實以我現在所看到的草案,現在我們的科技偵查保障法或者是目前我們院內有委員所提案的關於刑事訴訟法的修訂,其實內容幾乎是一模一樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2830.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2855.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
他只是在立法體制上面放在不同的位置他有不同的思考是事實上我們定立這個專法其實科技偵查這部分他其實還他包含了兩個重要的元素在裡面一個就是我們剛剛講的廣泛的這個這個有關強制偵查他證據能力等的相關這些程序正義的是一個面向程序正義是一個面向讓這樣的科技偵查取得法律的依據這是程序正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2856.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2880.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
另外一個是剛剛警政署所講的在偵查犯罪過程中發現真實我們要發現真實的一個重要的手段我們在發現真實跟這個程序正義這兩個衡量之間來是作為我們訂立這個專法不管是專法或是刑事訴訟法裡面重要的精神那當然在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2882.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2885.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2912.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2929.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
是比較是是比較比較妥當啦齁一方面主管機關也不同定律專法的話是我們法務部主管如果到刑事訴訟法就變成司法院主管好那這個這就我們的我們這個當我們在發現真實過程中需要的相關的法律規範我們就必須要會嫌 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2930.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2934.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 及保障法草案案 案 及保障法草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2949.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2978.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
的方式手段工具可能他的變化也會未來會超過我們想像的速度所以如果在放在形式輸送法裡面一方面他影響了形式輸送法這一整部輸送法他的穩定性另外一方面我們如果是這個定力專法的話他未來在因應新的新型態的技術科技這些在法律上面的因應都比較方便這是我個人的看法不過我相信我們本委會裡面也有其他的看法是不是說我們也許應該我們在形式輸送法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2979.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3000.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
掙裂一個一個這個有關科技偵查整體性的授權規定那接下來其他每一個具體的這個新的這個科技偵查的工具我們就用這個科技偵查法專法來定定這也許是一個折衷的辦法那因為我站到接下來的時間我就先執行到這裡接下來我們在這個廣泛討論或者是主條討論裡面我們再來討論這些議題好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3004.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3026.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
好謝謝省委員謝謝鄭部長接下來請黃委員郭昌質詢歡迎鄭部長和李廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3037.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3064.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
委員早兩位早針對科技偵查的法律授權我在新的國會第一次總質詢的時候從GPS到煙化車我已經質詢過上一任的行政院院長了那個時候都說還在研議今天終於研議出來了但事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3066.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3084.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這一部有關於科技偵查的專法我看完了以後我看完了以後我只有一個最根本的問題那個最根本的問題是裡面到底有哪一個條文性質上不是屬於刑事訴訟法應該管轄的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3088.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3113.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這個問題我在第一次啊質詢我們的司法院秘書長立法計劃的時候我又講得非常的清楚啊不管是線上的搜索不管是有關於對行動通訊設備的科技偵查駐財外的科技設備相關的規定在德國的刑事訴訟法裡面全部都是規範在德國的刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3116.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3145.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
但是過去這20年因為我們司法院的消極怠惰不作為根本沒有針對相關科技偵查需要的法律授權在刑事訴訟法當中予以檢討搞到後來我們的檢警去用GPS這樣子一個最低階的科技偵查的手段竟然 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3146.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3167.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
維法還被起訴移送法辦用M化車我們花了納稅人的錢從警政署甚至到高檢署採購了M化車結果採購來的M化車沒有證據能力在這整個過程的當中我對於司法院自身事外我覺得不可思議我今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3172.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3177.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
一個最具體的問題行政院版的科技偵查保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3179.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3203.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
看起來洋洋灑灑一部特別法只有十一條的規定十一條的規定啊你會不會把第一條第十條第十一條那些程序上的東西啊全部都拔掉我只有一個最具體的問題啊來請教一下我們司法院的代表有哪一條在性質上是不屬於刑事訴訟法對強制處分作為以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3204.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3228.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
他的法定程序的控制以及證據能力有哪一條是不能規定在刑事訴訟法的請司法院謝謝委員的指教那有關於司法院的立場部分我大概先重申一下如果資料沒有錯的話我們從司法院對於相關的修法一直都沒有離開過而且都都在對不起啊我時間有限啊就請我們是法律人依法論法 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3229.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3254.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那目前的話有哪一條是不能規定在刑事訴訟法的請你具請你具請你具體指出來我們也曾經司法院曾經擬過一個刑事訴訟法的條文把把列入在刑事訴訟法的專章裡面來做做規範所以呢現在修正法裡面有哪一條是不能或是不應該放在刑事訴訟法的請司法院回答這部分是立法那個政策選擇的問題所以在性質上面本來就應該放在刑事訴訟法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3259.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3264.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
建新減改開的研討會部長你有沒有去參加這個研討會因為我沒有參加我建議部長啊去看一下那個研討會說辦案的需求有關於科技偵查的手段我們打開天窗說亮話只有限於打詐嗎辦組織犯罪需不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3287.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3311.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
判國安犯罪需不需要各式各樣的犯罪形態在今天這個時候都需要科技偵查的手段從基層的檢察官到刑事訴訟法的學者大家都主張我們應該要回歸放在刑事訴訟法裡面予以規範這樣的聲音我不曉得部長有沒有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3312.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3335.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
法院有沒有聽到?這是為什麼台灣民眾黨一開始的時候我們就把他放在刑事訴訟法接下來中國國民黨的召委吳宗憲他也是把他放在刑事訴訟法民主進步黨的召委鍾嘉斌也是把他放在刑事訴訟法結果大家等了半天等了半天 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3336.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3365.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
你們推出一個科證法結果只有11條的規定那11條的規定掐頭去尾實際上面真正有實質內容的只有3條那3條全部都可以放在刑事訴訟法當中我老實講啦對於行政院嚴當了這麼久嚴當了這麼久結果搞出一個11條的科證法而且裡面所有的性質性質上本來就應該放在刑事訴訟法的我非常失望 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3366.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3389.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
但我接下來問一個比較具體的問題當初對於使用科技方法位於非具隱私或私密合理期待的空間進行調查的時候本來法務部科偵法的版本是有法律授權的依據跟要求為什麼到行政院版沒有來請部長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3393.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3408.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這部分我們是既然既在整個一個公共空間在一個一個隱私期待比較低的一個一個環境所以不需要法律授權不要過度授權所以不需要法律授權這部分回到刑事訴訟完來回到刑事訴訟法第幾條28條230好來請一下司法院針對對於這一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3420.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3444.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
非具隱私或秘密期待空間的實施調查用科技方法進行調查直接用刑事訴訟法那個概括的條文作為授權的基礎。司法院認為足夠或不足夠?就228條是徵徵查的概括授權的規定是不是可以直接用228條當作基礎? |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3446.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3457.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
是嗎來是今天是代表司法院的立場哦我們立場是應該是可以的好我現在的問題就來了今天司法院的立場說可以司法院的立場會拘束法官嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3459.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3482.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
為什麼這麼多刑事訴訟法的學者認為即使是非具隱私或秘密合理期待空間的人或物實施調查還是要有法律授權的基礎因為特別是在看來請看一下如果是在空中實施調查的話你如果用228條當作基礎的話有沒有時間的限制有還是沒有請部長各位委員報告沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3487.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3491.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
可以不需要有時間的限制嗎來請司法院只要是看他的偵查的時間的長短對於個人民的隱私期待他這個不就正是應該我們在法律授權的時候要寫清楚嗎你既然說 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3506.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3531.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
對於隱私的期待在空中實施的時候他對於人的隱私跟資訊自主的侵入的手段是比一般的時候更強烈司法院的立場要講清楚因為這要負歷史責任的喔如果萬一以後檢警用這樣子的手段用刑訴228條當作基礎我們個案的法官如果不買單的話誰要負責這是我的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3535.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3546.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
當初檢警在用GPS的時候在被移送法辦之前所有的檢警都認為用228就可以當作授權的基礎我說的對不對來請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3552.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3575.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
當初在被移送法辦在法官跳出來講話以前所有的人都認為用228就可以當基礎啦。各位各位報告我們今天是要解決就是科技偵查科技偵查我們今天就是要解決問題所以我很擔心啊所以那個訴訟法這部分竟然可以解決像我們這個M花車那個該委員解決的GPS M花車對不起喔我現在在跟你講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3576.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3592.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
是空中實施調查的問題。空中實施調查的問題沒有任何時間的限制。時間用刑訴228當作基礎。這個就像齊柏女那個整個就是可以公共空間本的就是請示期待評審的地方。來來來那個請司法院。 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3593.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3615.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我回應一下委員的問題對空中實施調查主要他到底有沒有時間上的限制這個部分主要還是重點他到底會人民的隱私期待有受到侵害他228條是蓋過偵查的蓋過授權他可以做但是他一旦越越遇越的侵害隱私期待的時候那應該有另外的法律授權另外的法律授權是什麼請說明可能用科偵法用專法來做他的法律授權在第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3625.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3640.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
再第幾條?這個就是我的問題嗎?二、三、四這個部分就是科技偵查法的基本的授權二、三、四那現在因為在之前在草案的時候不好意思喔,剛剛你說二、三、四是什麼?科技偵法的第二條、第三條、第四條這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3640.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3669.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那裡面有空中調查嗎我現在要說明的是空中調查在之前的草案裡面曾經出現過但是對於空中調查、空中偵查的定義一直沒辦法做明確的定義包括所謂的空中偵查到底是無人機之外的包括CCTV在高空上的是不是也叫做空中偵查那這部分因為定義上的不明確所以需不需要時間上面的限制不管啦今天你是有人開啦還是沒有人開啦是用無人機啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3670.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3671.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3684.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3703.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
過去長時間以來有很多人認為用刑訴228可以處理很多事走到今天顯然就不行嘛所以才需要針對科技偵查不管是透過專法還是定在刑訴裡面給法律授權嘛那你們現在把本來有的條文把它拿掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3704.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3727.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
而且那些條文還是很多刑事訴訟法的老師認為需要有法律具體授權的你們現在把他拿掉說回歸刑訴228那我就一個最根本的問題啊時間上面的限制不需要有嗎如果司法院認為時間上面的限制應該要有那我最具體的問題就是在哪裡在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3729.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3753.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案� |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3754.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3783.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那今天用科偵法這樣的一個專法如果裡面除了本質上面是形式訴訟的東西以外還有其他的事情的話我們還可以考慮但我看完所有的條文沒有一個條文是超越本來應該在形式訴訟裡面規範的範圍時間到了啦等一下我們再進行大體討論跟主條討論的時候我們再進一步深入的去追究一個科技偵查法 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3784.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3799.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
十一條的條文裡面具有實質內容只有三條本來就都應該可以放在刑事訴訟法你全部都准用刑訴全部都准用刑訴在立法的體力上讓大家搞不懂你搞這個專法要做什麼你為什麼不把它放在刑事訴訟法裡好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3802.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3809.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
立法體制在通報法就有這樣的一個特別的一個規定。好,謝謝我們黃委員,謝謝鄭部長,謝謝李廷長。接下來,有請陳委員峻宇質詢。來,請。好,謝謝主席。我們有請鄭部長。請鄭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3831.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3831.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
副長早 委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3835.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3860.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我們今天要審查的是這個科技偵查及這個保障法的相關草案那主要是因應我們這個科技的日新月異那犯罪的形態也越來越多元同時也是打詐事法當中最重要的一個調查武器那誠如草案說明所寫這部這個法律是為了要確保我們偵查機關運用科技方式來進行偵查的一個合法性 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3861.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3887.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那同時也保障人民的一個基本權更重要的是要讓調查犯罪的工具不再落後那最近風靡全台的這個黃仁勳執行長他也曾說台灣是AI的一個起點但2024年的台灣似乎同時擁有最先進的科技和最原始的一個調查手段所以不論是訂定這個科真法還是有委員提出希望能夠修形式訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3887.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3901.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那儘快讓科技偵查的這種手段有法律的基礎相信是我們各黨的一個高度共識那我再次我想請教就是說這個對於這個立專法還是立專章的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3901.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3931.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們法務部跟司法院之間有沒有對此有一個溝通過的一個機制有沒有謝謝目前的話我們就是有公司就是一定那個專法那其實定專法也也非常多就大概講就是說像通報法通訊保障監察法這個也是對人民的通訊這個也是把它抽出來定一個專法像國民法官法正能保護法等等這就是立專法這樣的話可以即使因應這個時代的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3932.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3936.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我們有沒有跟司法院有有溝通過這部分是我們有溝通過的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3937.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3939.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3965.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3985.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
訂定的過程裡面更加的透明。」這個部分再請我們法務部這邊就再後續再做協助。那我們今天對於這個科技偵查在事務上的使用齁我來請教我們法務部在這個草案的第二條當中有寫到我們偵查中檢察官任有必要時任有必要時 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3986.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3998.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那得使用全球衛星定位系統的GPS或是其他非以這個辨識個人這個生物特徵的科技方式來追蹤位置,那部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4000.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4026.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
對剛剛所說的這個任有必要時會不會有不夠明確的問題那換言之倘若有其他更輕微的方法能夠取證就不能發動科技偵查嗎謝謝委員那個必要的時候是個案來做一個一個認定一個認定如果說沒有用這個科技偵查方法沒有其他的方式來做一個一個一個收集那這部分我們就是認為就就這個一個必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4027.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4049.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這個必要而且這個根據這個這種相機PS其實對隱私是有但不是非常大所以我們這個查案允許說在24小時之內在24小時沒有連續24小時或者沒有連續打打兩天這部分我們是可以允許辦案單位可以可以這樣做但是超過的話在這邊也要是要請法官的一個許可好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4049.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4068.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這科技日新月異啦齁那除了應用在這個地面上的調查還有從空中的這種科技方式例如我們這個空拍機由上而下的這種進行拍攝錄影或是這個測量手段那我還是請教部長就是說空拍機有涵蓋在整次我們本次的我們這個科偵法可使用的範圍當中嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4073.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4095.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個空拍機這部分當然課程法這邊沒有去規範空拍機但是空拍機最主要是會隱密的空間他是一個公共空間他去做一個修正就像齊柏你看見台灣他也是用空拍機是在一個一個一個一個拍攝台灣的一個美景但如果說用空拍機去做一個一個修正或是怎樣我們認為這要因循序訴訟法的規定就可以做一個一個規範的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4096.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4097.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4119.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4120.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4147.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4173.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案上都能夠帶來很好的效果,那也是我們在當今偵查犯罪中最好的一個工具,那個必須盡快有法律的依據,那所以我們剛剛講的這些工具我相信我們法務部應該都已經有在思考要怎麼去讓他們這個合法化,那我也請我們法務部就是後續的這個這個相關的這個修法或是相關的這個制定的過程應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4174.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4196.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
加緊腳步,讓我們所有的同仁在使用這些科技工具上能夠有一個依法性。」那另外就是草案第三條有提及就是調查過程中因為技術無可避免取得第三人的個資,那僅得供這個調查目的之比對且於調查實施結束後應該要刪除。 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4197.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4207.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那我想請教就當遇上我們上述剛剛講的提及的狀況對於資料有無銷毀應該要如何來確認那需不需要有獨立審查的人員來確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4212.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4214.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4229.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4231.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4246.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4274.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
各位報告關於這個M4車無可避免的會取到因為技術上它無可避免的會涉及到第三人那除了比對目的之外我們要求它收完證就應急刪除但這條事後如果去控管這法規上因為屬於技術上的問題我們沒有在法規上寫但是我們未來會要求所有的司法警察執行機關要定在內機內控上面就這個銷毀做一些特別的規定那我們檢察官據偽偵查組織的角色我們也會去監督這個司法檢察機關的內機內控 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4275.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4277.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
獨立審查的人員就是檢察官喔?」 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4291.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4319.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那我想我們從草案的內容來看對於這個調查隱私空間的發動門檻還有調查的方式也都有這個更加嚴格的規範那包括使用這個高倍數的攝影攝影機或是這個熱顯熱顯像設備也都是打擊重要這個重案的非常重要的一個手段跟工具當然也希望我們透過科技偵查的這個應用能夠對打擊犯罪起的一個比較好的效果那也讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4320.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4335.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
所有在偵查過程當中我們同仁在使用的工具能夠有效的提升這部分再請我們部長跟相關這個同仁繼續努力看能不能趕快把它完成好以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長、次長接下來有請羅委員志強發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4350.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4372.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
主席有請部長請政部長委員好部長我非常支持打詐但是我想請教一下這一部所謂的科技偵查法他的所謂的犯罪的偵查對象不只是詐欺案件對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4374.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4385.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹖一、審查行政院函請審議．一、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4401.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4405.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4423.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4443.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
是不是其他犯罪形態也包含在裡面嗎 對不對我只是要一個答案一分鐘沒關係部長再請教你剛剛我看到幾位委員質詢其實不管是國民黨民眾黨還有民進黨其實都會委員提案是要來修刑事訴訟法把科技偵查作為一個專章來處理對不對那請問為什麼我們堅持要一個專法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4449.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4478.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個專法的話因為其實立專法有立法例包括我剛才有提到的就是像通保法對我又講現在三黨都有委員提出是刑事訴訟法但也覺得配合刑事訴訟法這是立法選擇問題但是如果說以專法的訴訟法既然是立法選擇問題因為這既然是科技偵查為應時代的一個需要科技的發展如果說以刑事訴訟法的修法的話光日廢時那另外說以修那個專法的一個方式可以及早應用就像我們那個國民法官法也是定專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4479.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4501.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那個通報法通訊保障委員是定一個專法我倒沒有看出什麼曠日廢死啊幾個黨都已經提出了版本因為像我們這樣只有定十幾條的話我們這就做一個一個審查我想速度會比較快我想這個定專法的話在整個立法當然我跟你講快慢之間有周延性的問題嘛法的體系的所謂的那個一致性的問題嘛專法當然有定專法的好處啊部長我覺得幾個委員幾個政黨委員意見還是參考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4507.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4529.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我想請教您下一個問題您瞭解一下您瞭解我們最近通過的這個國會改革法案嗎這有三讀通過有三讀通過我想請教您你知道這個國會如果要行使聽證調查它的門檻是什麼第一個程序上需要什麼經過誰決議要發動的話要誰來決議部長要熟悉一下因為你們都要提復議了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4535.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4563.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
法務部在扮演提復役的角色當中應該有角色吧。法務部就是我們這個行政院的法律守門人啊。要誰決議啊。在整個在59條之一有這樣要委員會跟調查委員會等來做一個。最後當然程序很多啊。最後一關最重要就是要院會決議嘛。院會113位立委決議嘛。對不對。然後你也看過我們國會改革在審的過程當中。國會的那個真是焦土戰啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4564.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4579.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
要通過院會決議一旦如果說大家沒有共識很困難吧對不對就要經過很很大的一個所謂的一個呃溝通過程嘛那我問你要這個聽證調查啟動要院會決議這件事情就要門檻高還是低啊這個實際運作這個還要再觀察那我想請教您吼您知道在聽證的狀況的話如果說59條之五啦吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4594.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4623.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
在有些情況之下出席的人員還可以拒絕正言跟表達意見嘛 對不對 對不對包括說涉及國家安全國防外交之國家機密事項與越聽證會調查目的所提出的結論或對質我要講的重點是什麼即便都已經到要院會113位立委決議的這種情況之下你知道我看到很多的外面都講阿民進黨阿或是綠營的朋友講齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4625.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4635.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
說學校老師土豐武社張忠謀還有我們這個各式各樣的所有人民都會被聽證調查你覺得所有人民都會被聽證調查嗎會不會這個要看這個是議題議題個案這個民眾當然嘛兩個第一個嘛一定會有被這個裡面有規定人民也也有被 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4652.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4670.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
被人民什麼三大條件嗎?第一個可以拒絕陣營嗎?第二個院會決議嗎?第三個跟立法院職權有關嗎?對不對?法條寫得很清楚啊。大家符合這三項條件所以有門檻嗎?而且是相當高的門檻113位立委決議你跟我講門檻不夠高?不然這個意思嗎?門檻門檻夠不夠高?至少有門檻嗎?法案不是我們法務部的主管的法案我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4681.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4707.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
你們行政院都要提復議了我跟部長講113位立委決議就是個高門檻所謂的土豐五社啊台積電啊還是不管是張忠謀還是說今天是學校老師要過這三個門檻沒那麼容易啦好啦我要問你啦跟我們的科技偵查法有關齁你知道法治局對科技偵查法有意見吧立法院法治局 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4710.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4724.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
一個意見是什麼請問你照剛剛部長標準人民還是可能被查了對不對我想請問你學校老師土豐武社台積電或者黃仁勳還是館長還是里長有沒有可能被科技偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4727.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4746.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
黃仁旭會不會被科技偵查?會不會?我們科技偵查是針對個案做壞罪偵查來收集證據。會不會對普遍性人民的這些的資料我們在做收集的。你這不是廢話了?國會聽證調查也不會對普遍性人民做這個調查啊?聽證調查還有門檻啊?我要問你是什麼?會不會嗎?有沒有可能性嗎?黃仁旭會不會被科技偵查?有沒有可能性嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4751.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4757.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我直接告訴你有為行政院辯護守護的那個一個所謂的政治的一個框架沒有關係我直接告訴你我要問你問題是什麼立法院都還有113位立委的決議才能夠實施聽證調查作為高門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4776.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4792.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
可是我看法治我講的是法治局意見我是要請您來解釋疑問不等於是反對喔現在設計只要檢察官檢察事務官司法警察司法警察官認為有必要時就可以用科技偵查是不是是不是這一條已經拿掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4799.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4808.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
立法院要新增所謂的不能或難以其他方法收集或調查證據之要件作為該等科技偵查方案門檻嗎?要鎮定這項嗎?有要鎮定這項嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4815.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4832.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個我們這個必要的吼這個特這個整科技的一個其實他比前天我要你把門檻再跟我講一遍嘛他只要是比照搜索的一個門檻比照搜索的門檻所以包括所謂的我們講的這個所謂的GPS也是一樣沒有這24小時檢察官判斷這個問題拿掉了沒有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4836.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4837.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
審查及保障法草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4852.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4879.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我只講20小時的必要時來來來沒關係沒關係我來問你齁今天你的所謂的門檻跟我們現在現行的所謂的那個通訊監察保障的那個通訊監察書的方法一樣嗎這個不一樣不一樣嗎曾以其他方法調查人無效果或以其他方法調查合理顯示為不能達成目的或重大危險之情形有這個門檻嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4882.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4885.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4906.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4925.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
今天GPS也好手機也好定位也好定位黃仁勛立法院法治局認為說這個可能要有更嚴謹的法律安全保障程序我不知道今天怎麼我今天請問你嘛法治局裡面意見我請問我們的法務部怎麼回應你們看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4931.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4953.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
他認為齁,基本上因為委員報告齁,這個短期的本來就是這個短期的他那個干率本來就是程度很低短期程度很低這短期,因為短期沒辦法收集到這個短期,如果短期沒有的話我們就直接就沒關係,待會還要大體討論還有主條審查,我們再一一討論,以上好,謝謝羅委員,謝謝曾部長接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4968.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4972.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
謝謝張偉有請我們法務部正部長有請正部長我們司法院那個刑事廳廳長好不好廳長今天也有來部長早還有廳長那我想幾個問題要來就教就是說今天我們這整個科技偵查法這個其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4996.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5013.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
人民也期待但是人民期待的是整個犯罪真實或者犯罪的一個整個針防裡面可以提供政黨機關更強大的一個武器可是期待提供這個強大的武器是要發現這個真實打擊犯罪可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5014.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5037.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
也會擔心確實有人權上的一個憂慮讓我幾個問題來就教就是說你比如說我們在四年前科技偵查的一個草案當初就是有一些人權上的一個爭議像是比如說不符合這個虛情法官審理同意以後檢方或司法警察才能執行的法官保留這樣一個規定後來我們法務部去做了版本去做了一些修訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5038.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5057.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
錢防制法修正草案案 案 案 例如公共空間在檢警修正的時候只能連續二十小時共計兩天超過的部分就是要法官保留在M化車跟手機通訊監察都採用法官保留的一個原則這個其實往好的方向去做一個修正這個代表法務部這邊其實也 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5059.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5084.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
對這個手段,你們也會有疑慮啦,這進步是一個好事啊。但是本席還是想來就叫法務部或者說刑事廳廳長就是說,這一部法案法案你們認為,有哪些地方還要精進的地方,比較符合人群的一個保障。我對你的看法,如果是這連結出來可能給你講比較困難。聽到你的看法,你如果站在院方的看法,你的看法會怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5085.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5113.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
謝謝委員指教那有關於科技偵查法這個整個立法過程修法過程我這草案提出的過程行政院一直都有參與有參與7次的相關的審議那我們認為我們當時所認為有疑慮的部分那行政院這邊法務部這邊都已經參財了就目前為止我覺得在成績化的處理跟各個程序的審查的部分我覺得是我們認為目前我們是可以認同的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5113.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5118.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
目前你覺得可以接受的我倒認為啦你像比如說我們這支法案呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5119.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5146.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我這兩天才去看了德國的刑事訴訟法了那我們確實是去大量的去援引他援引人家進步的立法當然是一個好事啊但是我比較擔心的就是我們學了半套學了半套你知道比如說你這個部分條文採法官保留的原則但是你卻沒有去同步採納發動的要件那種嚴謹性跟受干預第三者的這樣的一個影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5147.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5157.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
又或者說你在告知義務或者在權力救濟的部分我們去採了德國行動訴訟法第101條強調什麼時候要告知當事人以第三人的不同的一個規範我就以這次法務部提出來的第四條為例所以如果調查人員認為犯罪嫌疑可能觸犯到三年以上有歧途刑必須要法官保留才可以使用空拍機還有監看這些設備因為可能會干涉到非當事人可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5175.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5190.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我們同時去參考德國的刑事訴訟法那個100H那個地方就是我們知己那個設計其中另外兩個包含的一個但書裡面要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實其他手段都沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5191.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5205.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
還有第二個就針對非調查主體你必須要事實上跟當事人有關聯所以我就要來請教部長或者廳長對於制度性保障當事人跟非當事人的這個發動條件我們把它漏掉了這個我看聽到你繼續說你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5212.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5240.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這個部分如果要比照所謂的通保法的部分我想在我應該有看過的行事書那個德國行事書他有相關的通信監察的部分的規定的話他也是用列舉的重罪原則或是列舉的罪名那包括所謂的罪惡手段性原則或者叫做侵害罪小原則用這個方式來做處理當然啊你這叫做自視教科書講法對對對我的意思說那你對這一些那個其他人不相干的人造成的損害你怎麼辦的影響啦他不要說損害啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5242.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5271.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
因為你這個設計喔你那個到第七條那個是有霸王條款捏因為霸王條款是很可怕的捏我是認為啦法務部跟德國的版本有一個基礎的概念就是說犯罪嫌疑如果是重大經過法官保留可以採用科技偵查這樣的一個極端的一個手段可是呢德國刑事訴訟法我們去抄到為什麼說你抄了半套他們是你要窮盡一些必要的那個你現在的一個手段沒有辦法以後啊你才可以去向法官來申請啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5272.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5274.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5291.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5292.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5309.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5310.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5327.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5351.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
你如果用法務部的版本會變成說我今天去調查一個罪行重大的一個嫌疑犯經過法官保留以後呢就可以直接用最極端的手段你說變成我們去抄人家就沒有窮盡一切這個偵查的手段的精神在啦我擔心的是這個啊所以你現在也開始在點頭啊所以我要請教的就是說你們有沒有可能在調整的一個地方有沒有可能部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5357.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5375.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
其實我們現在的科技科技偵查環境線裡第二條就是GPS還有第三條M花車跟第四條的那種熱血性的這一種的設備事實上這個對人的因為他不可錄音嘛他不可錄音也不能吃他那個內容嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5375.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5381.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
所以他只是只是追蹤那個這個我知道啦所以這個賦予賦予偵查人員更強大的武器這個我知道啦你那講會講武器對等啦但是我講的是說當事人人權的一個保障你的社你的社程的一個範圍啦你像比如說啦你現在講齁你現在目前的版本線三種太陽區告知受調查的當事人而已喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5400.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5406.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
第一個法案許可的或者緊急狀況經過法案核發的緊急狀況經法院停職以後來進行施行調查的這一些以現在的目前的草案的一個設計的話你去看你若我資料若沒有超過24小時的我就一天叫一個年輕人說來欸欸柏丁有時候給你懷孕懷孕23小時就好給他懷孕23小時就好或是連鎖不要超過兩天這樣就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5423.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5424.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5433.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5440.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
不是嘛,你是院方喔。以下你第七條的法王條款、緊急狀況、實施科技偵查三天內都可以事後來追認喔。沒人知道你就要審過了啦。我的意思就是說,叫你們重新再考慮一下有一個好處。你事後才可以去追蹤,來看看說我們這副法令通過以後,我們有沒有去超越人權保障還是說我們會比較不好意思,我們用這個手段喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5462.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5464.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5470.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5474.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
乾綠是當然我知道你們會認為輕微但是輕不輕微啊每一個人的判斷會有所不同但是在這個過程裡面我會擔心造成腐爛然後大家馬上都跳到第七條去 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5498.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5515.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我又要跟你說了就哪怕是剛羅志祥在他在質詢的部分他也是他也是自己擔心這個民眾一定希望你們有更好的武器去打擊犯罪可是呢他真的民眾還是會有這樣的一個疑慮像我就會有這個疑慮我認為這個有疑慮這如果過去你看以前馬王征征的時候好夭壽喔這波如果還有這個法律下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5525.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5528.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5555.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5561.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
庭長,你怎麼那麼糾激?你那個24小時的啦,沒有超過兩天的啦,沒有糾激啊,都白看的啊,愛怎麼看就怎麼看,老實講你就變透明人,誰任何人都會變透明人,我擔心的會有這個啦,我就不要超過24小時就好了啊,整天叫個年輕人跟你們對啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5576.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5600.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
有沒有這個問題來清檔你有沒有這個問題這個事實上在我們在草案演繹的時候當時有跟法務部那邊有一些提出有一些看法那我說在透過行政的開案的程序就是說警察機關在實施科技偵查的時候他記得要做行政開案那開案的時候才可以追蹤他到底有沒有超過24小時或是累計超過兩天這部分那在事後你可以用行政監督的方式來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5601.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5625.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
對我知道我知道你們想會講到行政監督啦好啦我如果行政警察局啦還是我如果是調查局啦你檢察官法官你事後根本就不會想去監督啦就是輕微嘛23小時沒有超過24小時嘛沒有連續超過兩天嘛我的意思是說你怎麼樣去踐行這個通知當事人的一個程序這個部我們有漏掉我之所以會特別點出這個就是說因為我們第七條是一個帝王條款那個是最嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5628.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5629.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5639.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5640.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
洗錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5670.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5676.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
審查及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5685.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5686.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
洗錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5705.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5728.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
你要去發現追溯犯罪然後把讓這個刑法權來具體的一個實現我向大家都不會質疑啊那這個法定程序跟保障這個我以上我提出了這幾個哈我都要看廳長你還一直覺得我都對話啊但是提出來的法務部這個地方我就不曉得裡面有沒有可能這個部分再去做加強或者去調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5730.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5731.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5745.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5770.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這部分我們這個這個法律當然是沒有規定那個內空期制但是我們會整個通過我們會會做一個訂定一個內空的一個一個內空跟集合的一個要點這部分我一定要管制我比較煩惱的是今天吵一半而已啊這個我們就啊這個請委員放心這個我們會會是因為德國刑事署法的部分你今天給他衝一半去買啊你像我剛才講的那個保文就漏掉了我是認為可以再討論一下啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5774.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5774.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
謝謝專委員、謝謝政部長、謝謝廳長接下來請鍾嘉斌鍾委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5799.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5802.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5817.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5831.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
負擔好聽長好部長我們看到了今天所謂的科技偵查法大家在討論到跟刑訴之間的一個體制選的問題那麼我現在看一下這個需求很久了為什麼到現在大家因 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5831.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5834.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 規定是屬於新型的強制偵查,所以必須要符合正當法律的程序。」請問李廳長是不是有這樣的一個判決? |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5851.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5871.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
是的在106年就手就發現需要了對不對好部長那麼在110年的同樣的有一個刑事判決說M化車他在犯罪偵查的效率與人民的基本權保障他有個衝突跟抉擇需要明確規定和妥適立法請問部長是不是因為這樣的關係我們趕快推出了科技偵查法 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5872.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5881.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
其實科技偵查推已經推一段時間一段時間那對啊從106 110都被告知啦那為什麼現在才推出了科技偵查及保障法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5882.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5907.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那這部分的確是我們現在的科技的發展之心而已齁。我是說很早就知道可是法體制的一個嚴格好像有點嚴當我們看一下齁。在四年前是不是法務部曾經有預告過法案?有。有嗎齁那時候是蔡部長的時候。那時候我們看到的在野黨提出說科技偵查出爐全民公敵威權再現。是不是由於在野黨的質疑使得我們法務部的腳步慢了下來? |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5910.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5934.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那這個他是要跟委員報告因為的確是科技偵查這部分各位的那個可能各界的意見是非常通是的所以各界的意見都很多所以花了很多時間去整合各類的意見所以到現在仍然有要求放在刑事訴訟法或者是用科技偵查法的專法來訂定是不是這樣的一個體制選擇就存在了的確是有這個好那我們往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5934.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5935.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5959.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5976.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
檸檬局的飛機也是空拍啊,那我們用無人也是空拍啊,甚至美軍使用的戰術使用的那種微型的進去室內去看人質被綁票在哪裡的也是空拍啊,那那種東西很難界定嘛,那目前你們就把它先暫時放在一邊是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5977.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5994.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們現在科技偵查法科技偵查的保障法科證法最主要是我們我們要把新的一些坑可以使用的科技工具納入列舉的方式所以我們先是在234是列舉這三條所以未來如果有新的科技偵查的方式出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5994.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5996.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6016.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6040.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這繼續24小時還有未達兩日對但是呢24小時內的話本來是法官保留剛剛有委員在詢問但是你們就認為偵查有必要時嘛就把它有點放寬到偵查有必要時不是由檢察官來認定那麼什麼是有必要時我們這個必要時是比照搜索的一個概念好那麼可以放在聯繫人的身上嗎因為我們犯罪偵查都有一個犯嫌嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6041.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6054.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那如果說我們無法找到范賢你們限縮到要跟范賢確認有聯繫有哪些條件讓你們在24小時內基於偵查有必要就可以發動你們有哪些的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6057.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6067.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6083.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6102.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案件,甚至是跟可能你們犯罪偵查的對象有關聯的人或車都有可能,好那這就是我們很關心的,也是為什麼我認為說必須將原定的20日以上的法官保留限縮在24小時以上,就必須有法官來認定,那在24小時以內才准予依據偵查的必要性來實施,是不是這樣子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6104.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6123.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好,那我們那接下來看一下了GPS人臉追蹤辨識跟車牌的自動化辨識我們看到了啦其實呢在德國呢他2021年在世修牌他們刑訴的當中納入了包括這樣的一個監視器那請問這樣的一個監視器有人臉辨識跟車牌自動辨識你們有做區隔嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6128.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6131.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6152.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6177.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我們基本上是認同的因為在車輛車牌的部分是在公共空間在自己駕駛人到底是誰他沒辦法完全連結到個人的隱私的包括他生活圖像的問題所以單純車牌的部分我們認為我們認同法務部剛剛的見解好我們講到GPSGPS呢他是基於安置主動安置一個追蹤裝置在人或物件的身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6178.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6180.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
車牌及車輛是公共上可辨識的,基於追蹤嫌犯的可能移動位置入境,所以我們用車牌來調取。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6198.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6201.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6228.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6233.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個這個委員你關心這個這個問題這個是在這個我們在草案裡面並沒有這些的一些的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6234.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6255.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
沒有啊,車牌自動辨識要有前端,要有攝影機啊。有攝影機我才知道拍到車牌啊。有車牌在我的數據資料庫裡面,我才知道它移動的路徑啊。這就是車牌自動辨識的目的嘛,不是嗎?這是叫我們過往的一個資料,不是我們這要處理的問題。我當然知道,就是說現在要有配置監視器,要有配置監視器影像的大數據的資料庫。大數據的資料庫要有一個車牌辨識軟體。 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6259.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6260.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6273.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6275.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那這部分我不是請那個防證次來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6299.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6322.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以要知道車輛的現實狀況在哪裡,那他也可以（他所事後的調查是刑事訴訟法上的規範,不是我們自己正常法正法。其實我們常常知道在一般民眾常常說我的車子丟了,找不到了,請警方幫我協詢,這時候是屬於事後的一個追查嗎,是不是這樣子。好那這個我車子遺失遺失失竊,我的追查呢是另外這個,好往下看齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6322.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6323.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
券券券券券券券 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6337.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6339.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6365.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6366.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你們怎麼去決定要撈哪些號碼? |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6368.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6376.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6397.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6426.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
公務員報告因為M4車他這種科技方法使用的技術的過程當中他可無可避免的會收集到第三人他只有號碼他的過程中收集到號碼對那號碼本身沒有個人個人資料就號碼因為他分析工具的特性死難會收集到號碼所以我們要求只有在比對的過程當中你可以技術上必須會收集到這時候你可以暫時的保有但一旦分析完了你就必須要無關就要刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6426.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6433.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
所以這個號碼本身是未來你們進行對犯罪犯罪有偵查必要的連結才會去把它找出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6434.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6436.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6463.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6464.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6478.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6494.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
檢查的發動者他可能會因此而窒息其他與跟犯罪偵查無關的資訊那如果他這幾時候有對外洩露或者說察覺到室內的隱私行為這些情況那他如果有做一些呃非偵查以外的使用那你們怎麼樣去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6498.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6525.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
各位報告我們的法官法以及我們的檢察官倫理規範就這個違反檢察官倫理情節重大委員座提到這個情形本來我們法官法就有他送評鑑的記者但是通報法第27條第二項是有他其實是一個重複規定他是重複規定所以你們認為通報法的27條第二項重複規定你們在裡不需要規定當然用法官法的第30條第二項第89條第4項就可以了他本來就是要送個案評鑑好那最後呢我們說的他案無關或違法取得證據的禁用行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6526.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6538.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
在刑事訴訟法第158條之四他有規定那目前通法法18條之一也有規定但是在我們這裡沒有規定你覺得有沒有你是認為也是重複規定不需要再定還是認為這裡面我們需要再加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6541.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6542.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以這些問題來了之前有提到刑事訴訟的問題目前克森法雖然獨立立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6567.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6578.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
但他相關的一些防防備的規定他是要適用到行事訴訟法的規定是不是這樣子那包括可是通保法我們有有做重複的規定啊那你們認為有沒有必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6580.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6580.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這段的說明很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6599.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6628.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
科偵法及通保法因為是一個前者涉及到有內容後者涉及到只是一個外部行為的路徑或者說確切的位置並沒有涉及到他的內容所以在他的保障的規範上強度上就沒有像通保法是這樣的是這樣意思嗎?好 部長那因為待會我們要繼續做大體討論跟主要審查所以希望未來您剛剛回應到黃委員的說的包括我們建新改檢察官們的期待希望未來部長有機會多多到跟第一線的人員多多做這些經驗跟意見的交流可以嗎?可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6629.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6654.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。好謝謝好我們備詢官員請回我們接下來請林思明委員好謝謝主席請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6660.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6661.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6691.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6716.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我首先請教部長全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法除了我們追蹤嫌犯位置的資訊還能收集到哪些相關的環境資訊就是說你用全國衛星的定位系統你去定位這個犯罪嫌疑人除了他的位置以外你還可以收集到什麼相關的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6721.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6722.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6740.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6765.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以只知道他的行蹤行蹤他追蹤那個行蹤追蹤他這台車子的這個這個蹤跡蹤跡軌跡而已是所以我就很好奇了因為你後段學說或其他以非辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置那部長那這一這一條後段講說或其他非辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6766.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6793.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
事指哪些方法你可不可以歷史一下這個像我們現在最主要是我們在美國那個GPS那歐盟的那邊有那個潛力類的一個定位的一個系統事實上都是在追蹤這個軌跡就是位置而已是所以你就是反正除了就非生物特徵的其他的方法對就你講只有這個嗎因為你就講就全球衛星定位系統這個我們大家很了解GPS嘛對 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6794.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6796.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6814.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6830.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們我們知道了國外當然你先只是講說用全球衛星GPS的定位系統那我們知道國外有所謂的天眼系統這個天眼系統可以看到利用衛星定位啊可以清楚的看到說嫌犯他的蹤跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6831.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6833.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6857.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6858.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6875.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6894.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
他們可以利用這個衛星定位系統很清楚的看到說這個嫌犯他是在哪一個這個房間裡面哪一個房間裡面那這個人是不是他們要追蹤的人那我們的這一套系統只能達到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6895.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6900.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6924.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6926.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6937.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6965.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這個委員很清楚對啊所以道高於尺磨高於杖對如果說我們要讓科技偵查真的發揮它的效用我個人覺得說可能在某部分我們要有所突破要有所突破否則這個再用這種傳統的方式來這個做一個科技偵查其實我個人覺得在這種AI大數據的時代我們這科技的偵查方法其實是落伍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6966.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6984.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我講很簡單的例子啦齁。如果說現在我因為你剛才提到說這個呃就是空拍機的問題啊齁那這一次的條文我們看到第三條的欸就是條文裡面的規定喔是不是到底有沒有包含空拍機啊有沒有包含空拍機就是在呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6987.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7003.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個條文第四條沒有包含空拍機嗎但是部長你看你的條文規定講說檢察官或檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本行三年以上有刑徒刑之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7004.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7023.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
有相當理由認為具隱密或私密合理其擔之空間內之人或物與本案有關得從該空間外使用非實體侵入性之科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及攝錄影像。」所以從這個條裡面你講說得從該空間外 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7029.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7041.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
來使用非實體侵入性質方法對該空間內之人來監看或者錄影。」所以條文裡面看並沒有排除空拍機啊?這部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7043.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7068.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
因為他從這是一個這一條是處理那個要營救因為現在炸團比如說機房實在很隱密的一個空間內或者是把人囚禁在裡面一個空間內那這部分我們這種科技我們只是說必用最有名的就是我們熱顯性去測那個溫度去形成那個圖像所以不然我剛才會提到說那個空拍機他直接是可以攝錄的在整個這個技術性這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7069.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7096.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
除了沒辦法以外那空拍機主要是適用在一個公共空間那這個不是對室內的一個一個偵查的一個方式那另外空拍機當然在在空拍機可以在戶外可以去用其他的搭載設備譬如說委員長關心像M花車的那種設備或者GPA這種設備當然這個就要就就不能空拍機就不能獨立來規定空拍機的性質這還回歸到我們那個科偵法裡面的做一個規範的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7098.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7114.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
是那個部長所以我該會講到說其實這部科證法的偵查的手法我個人一直覺得真的很保守我再講就是說你講說可以用什麼高倍數的攝影機或照相機透過窗戶拍攝屋內囚禁被害人的情況或透過熱顯像設備探知內部溫度等 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7121.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7146.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
來去做調查那實際上為了保護人這個我們人權啊為保護隱私啦所以你什麼進入屋內拍照然後在屋內專攝攝影機放是極非許可的範圍嗎所以我聽起來啊這個條文的設計看起來這跟偵信社在監看監看這個過去在屋外一直監看說哎這個外面去監看屋內有什麼動靜沒有兩樣哎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7148.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7150.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我們的科技偵查是用這種方式喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7152.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7175.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
因為最主要還是要監護隱私的一個保障因為在一個人的隱私的基本權這部分我們是非常注意的所以我的感受就是說我們還停留在非常低階的一個科技偵查方式裡面實際上我剛才也跟你提到嘛就是說當然國外的天眼系統這個涉及到當然人權的保障的隱私各方面那我們認為在這個條文的設計裡面沒有那麼先進 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7178.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7203.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
但是現在AI大數據的時代我們透過衛星的定位其實都可以或者空拍機啊剛才你都空拍機你都不敢講到底空中調查含不含蓋在這一個條文裡面好像法務部也很保守我剛才聽到幾個委員在問你你也想說這個空中調查應該他好像剛才次長講說這個應該在刑事訴訟法裡面好像有相當的授權但看不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7205.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7206.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7218.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7241.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
但是第三人的資料我想相關的法規你可以即時銷毀嗎?那個剛才委員有提到就是對內的那個空拍機我們空拍機如果說掛著那個那個熱顯性熱顯性熱顯像儀或者是MRF可以收集這些的一些相關的。是啊所以我想其實這個立法我還是希望法務部未來在這個實務上的運作上面可以做 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7242.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7266.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
可能真的要做更先進高科技各方面的一個事務的研討方面你可能要再去探究是否則只有這樣法這樣規定我個人覺得這個說要打炸喔這個很有限的這個可能方法手段上面太落伍了啦我我只能這樣講了另外就是說我還是要講再給我一分鐘就是說我們在這個如果說你要去去用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7269.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7270.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7290.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7318.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
條文裏面好像沒有規定到最強是第四條啦,第四條就熱選像以的那個像我們那個台版柬埔災案就這個這個一個問題啦但是現在就如果你不知道犯罪嫌疑人的手機號碼,你只知道被害人的手機啊,家屬提供給你啊,你是不是對被害人的手機號碼,你也要去做一個追蹤啊,這可以是啊,包含在這個條文裏面嗎,這個在第第三條是第三條可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7318.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7320.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
連被害人的也可以去做一個． |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7350.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7351.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
檢查及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7373.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7393.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這裡提出來的科技偵查及保障法草案確實是有蠻多的疑慮那剛剛前面幾個委員其實又談了他們解釋了這個相關條文之後的一些看法那我這裡我也這個會再提出我對於這部法案的幾個疑點幾個問題點第一個其實在你們的第一條裡面你們的這個很就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7401.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7414.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
要設置科技偵查及保障法的一個重要的目的就是為了要追溯犯罪可是本席以為追溯犯罪的犯罪概念會不會過廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7417.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7418.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7437.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7440.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7462.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7482.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這部分我們當然科技偵查他沒有去明列線說是哪一種的犯罪的一個類型但是我想我們再各二三四條那個是我們對科技偵查他有去列舉哪些可以做哪些科技不是你們現在只是手段我現在就是具體跟你們講我希望說你們可以去看一看那個情報工作法 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7482.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7507.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 bicyn 報工作法里面其實他也給這個情報人員他有一些可以去收集資料啊資訊的這樣的一個手法那麼但是呢他是會限縮在是一些重大的犯罪比如說涉及到什麼內亂外化有洩露國家機密等等的那我建議說你們這個部分應該要再去解鎖一下有一些如果做一些不是那麼重要的一個犯罪行為難道也必須要動用到這個科技偵查嗎畢竟這個是會 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7512.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7537.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 會侵害到個人的資訊隱私這個部分。然後第二個部分就是剛剛大家也在講的就是在第二條裡面對於什麼叫做非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法可不可以請部長再舉例一下用全球衛星定位系統這個大家清楚可是什麼叫做其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7537.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7539.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7556.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7559.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7571.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7599.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
規律定位系統是怎麼樣的系統?就跟美國那個什麼GPS只是做一個定位追一個人的定位那個行蹤而已。我跟你講嘛如果說是這樣的系統你們現在還是採取這樣的一個系統方法的話我覺得還是很落伍嘛不要說什麼我們我不知道這個部長你有沒有使用過Google MapGoogle Street你現在透過Google的地圖你都可以看到非常清楚如果說我知道部長您家的位置我可以一直放放放大看到你們家現在的窗戶你們的這個窗簾 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7601.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7602.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7617.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7621.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7642.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7647.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹖一、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7661.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7681.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 都可以採取這樣子你們現在所說的這種定位偵查法那我想了解的就是說那在你們內部未來會有一個內內控機制嗎檢察官他自己一個人說他要今天要去透過這樣的一個這個衛星定位系統要去做追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7682.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7690.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 議案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7708.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7722.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條之一條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7732.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7745.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7761.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7788.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,告訴他們說其實我們當時在調查這個的這個相關案件的時候其實你們的資訊也被也被我們所收集到了這個會通知會通知但是如果說以一看我們還在分別如果說干液極少的就隱私干液非常小的就譬如說我們那個短期的那個GPS的追蹤行動這部分短期的因為只不到是誰來決定這影響很小 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7789.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7789.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案．一）三） |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7812.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7814.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。閱讀委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7840.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7861.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我認為在這部法律裡面不應該授權給執法機關有這麼大的授權範圍所以我建議你們要將所謂的什麼叫做後續還有偵查或調查目的你明明之前的調查案子已經結束了跟委員報告其實以干預程度比較高的通報法這部分也是這樣的規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7862.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7869.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以現在通保法才被人詬病嘛那現在那個部分就是不明確謝謝你提醒我那這部分的話也要求這個通保法有關於這個後續怎麼調查目的這種有不明確概括授權範圍太廣的這個相關的條文你們都要把它提出來要檢討修正因為在過去這些年來其實已經這個大家對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7888.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7889.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7917.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7919.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7947.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7948.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7967.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7968.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7985.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8012.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
好那我們剛剛的會議宣告我們做個修正齁待會我們進行到11點休息或者是今日的詢答結束那接下來我們請鄭委員鄭錢鄭鄭錢鄭正元我們不在我們請張家俊委員張家俊張正元不在我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在我們請林楚英委員林楚英林楚英委員不在我們請邱志偉委員邱志偉邱志偉委員不在我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8013.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8025.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8034.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8050.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
打炸司法一定要加速立法我們都希望在這個會期能夠來完成讓科技的打法打讓科技的打炸能夠執法有據同時來確保保障國人抗炸的能力也要再提升啊下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8051.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8071.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那我一直認為我們要進入修法之前其實我們要對於目前的詐欺罪的案件各案類來進行分析才能夠有效診斷出最有效的利器是什麼那我手上呢我花了一些時間去分析我手上拿的是2016到2020、2021所整理的詐欺罪案件統計分析部長您知道這個資料嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8080.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8094.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這是我們法務部來統整的那我們就就教於您喔我在分析這整份資料裡頭看到詐欺罪的案件逐年攀升而且已經躍居各類刑案之冠 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8095.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8099.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8121.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8149.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
券4899 124899件他已經到6位數了所以一年間增加了5.8%一年間就增加了36940件所以這個趨勢是快幅的往上走在這個2020開始而詐欺罪的平均年增率也是所有的刑事案件裡頭最高的高達18.6%所以你要不要分析一下這個趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8151.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8176.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
的確是詐欺的因為詐詐團的一個詐欺手法不斷的一個翻新而且就結合新的一個科技的一個發展所以變成說他他的一個一個一個才會有所以一個是新興工具的運用嗎所以我們要也要跟進我們的新興的打詐的工具第二個其實是讓他們直接食髓知味嗎覺得有利可圖嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8178.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8199.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
所以他們才會快速的讓很多人加入詐欺犯的這個犯行好下一頁那麼來看看哦詐欺罪案件逐年攀升之外呢在細部分析電信詐欺是所有的佔比居冠的這五年來詐欺罪總共癥結了50萬7859人當中63%就是電信詐欺恐嚇案 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8208.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8232.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那電信詐欺恐嚇案當中呢以單純提供人頭賬戶有占將近六成19萬人最多這是最輕的一種他就是可能被拐被騙可能覺得這個貪圖小利也很好賺所以是六成是單純提供人頭賬戶的這一類那另外一類叫做車手啊單純作為車手五年間呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8236.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8239.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8258.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8275.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
所以26、7歲的人大家都去做車手就好賺就有利可圖所以從我這個分析你又告訴我們我們要該怎麼來檢視我們的作為以電信詐欺恐嚇罪然後提供人頭賬戶的最多然後做車手的人也很多然後都是年輕人 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8277.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8304.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這部分我們在法制上我們要跟著上腳步尤其說我們的偵查的方法要以竟然用科技的方法來詐騙來詐欺那我們就要與時俱進所以我們的GPS的系統M話車這個是最起碼的一個授權好這也是我的解讀我們要能夠診斷出狀況才能夠找出解方嘛下一頁那我再來分析喔詐欺罪的這個起訴的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8306.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8328.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這幾年來五年來呢起訴的比例是21.9%不起訴的比例是45%而電信詐欺類起訴比例是28%當中最高的就是車手這一類59%那你要不要再分析一下這樣的數字用在我們的相關修法給我們什麼樣子的一個示警跟參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8329.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8350.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以以車手的話因為我們這個起訴率最高因為車手就第一個跟那個被害人接觸的去拿到錢的就是那所以這部分我們可以用那個我們科徵法這部分草案第二條第二條就是可以用GPS追蹤那個車手的一個軌跡然後順勢上可以往他的上手去追查 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8351.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8368.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以現在在沒有一個科證法之前也沒有通保法的配套之前確實不起訴率是高達四成五用工具使用的少嗎即便有些人你確認他就是犯嫌可是你沒有東西去證明他有罪嗎好所以我們都同意這個立法的必要下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8370.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8396.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
進入條文前我要提醒我手上的這一份資料我覺得太重要了可是統計的資料只到2021年你們最新的update的數據應當持續再作報而且我認為都應在這個打詐司法修法前應當有最新的數據可以讓我們作為最強化參考的依據我們目前已經統計到今年的四月了那還沒上網 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8399.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8399.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8416.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8417.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8433.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8437.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8462.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8467.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這部分是在技術上會比較那或者我們跟內政部一起來處理嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8469.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8495.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我認為這個是大有必要的好嗎我們再來研議說如何來擴大整個詐欺罪的統計分析當然除了犯刑者加害者對被害人的被害原因各類我真的認為我們應當有這樣的data跟分析才能夠交相運用因為這對於我們如何去協助指導人民抗詐太重要了你要歸結出哪些抗詐的方法ABC |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8496.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8498.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8511.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8528.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
好謝謝下一頁好進入我們的條文打炸四法下一頁我們主委員長說了讓想騙的不敢騙已經騙的會被抓騙到手的沒得花其實今天的科證法聚焦的應當是哪一個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8530.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8533.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8551.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8568.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
然後再搭配這個熱血象儀來測溫救人我基本上都同意但是呢他的申請程序通知程序救濟程序以及形式執行準用都要更嚴謹就是在我們的法案裡頭下頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8569.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8585.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那我也看到我們從第二條第三條第四條都有相關的對於程序保障對於人權保護也都盡可能去做了防護當然有賽業黨委員認為是不是還會造成人權強害我們在逐條的時候可以來進一步的商議喔下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8587.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8604.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以說這個最高法院110年度的有一個4549號的判決見解啦我想部長應該知道這個這個判決嗎也正是因為M化車欠缺了法律授權的基礎違反了法律保留的原則這讓我們更清楚看到我們需要科證法 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8604.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8622.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我們需要一個具體的法制作業來同時兼顧憲法22條保障隱私權跟資訊自主權的範圍內但是又賦予我們行政權限辦案應當有的一個授權最好的方法就是立法來授權嘛好最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8623.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8641.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 也可補強,之前剛剛我講高達五成多是,四成五是沒有被起訴的,就是因為很多已經採證,但是在法院被認為他的證據能力是有疑義的,這也是我們立法修法的必要性嗎?對,這個是委員說的,所以我們科證法的一個,就讓這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8649.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8656.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
科技偵查的這些的手段這些的能夠得到法律的授權我想對打戰應該很有注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8658.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8684.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
讓實質破獲所掌握的證據他具有法律賦予的證據能力可以協助他在後續的審判上定罪他而且我更認為可以讓我們執法同仁他的士氣可以受到提振否則我查了一堆案辦了一些人然後最後到法官那裡覺得沒有辦法起訴沒有辦法定罪就對大家來講是一個很大的打擊尤其這些人未來都會再回去再做同樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8685.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8699.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案,則持續成為集團的議員,好嗎?好,不好意思,我以為有加二的時間,所以那個時間用的比較多。好,我們在除條的時候,未盡之處我們再討論。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝吳委員,謝謝鄭部長。接下來有請吳委員中線發言,請。好,謝謝主席。那我們要麻煩部長還有李廳長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8714.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8735.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
請政部長跟李廳長好那個李廳長你好那我想說這邊我先跟部長跟廳長說一下我先直接破題說我的想法啦就是對於科技偵查其實我從到這邊開始我就是舉雙手贊成一定要趕快 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8736.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8741.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8761.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8786.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那我自己提的提的我自己的提案也是認為說應該就刑事訴訟法裡面我們就刑事訴訟法去修法或是另立專章都可以但是實在是我不太認為說應該是用另立專法的方式去處理啦好那我想就教一下那個司法院請問一下那個司法院對於行政院的這個科偵法的這個專法司法院有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8788.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8802.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
檢查及保障法的草擬過程,我們司法院一直都沒有學習。我們認為用專法來處理,那也可以適時及時符合偵查機關的需求。 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8802.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8806.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
函請審查及保障法草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及保障法草案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8825.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8829.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案 及科技偵查及保障法草案案 案 及科技偵查及保障法草案案 案 及科技偵查及保障法草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8841.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8860.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那個我現在是問你科證法的部分吶那通保法的部分我想說已經二十年了我們就不要再討論那個部分因為我一直認為侵害人權的東西其實都要法官保留我一直是這種觀念吶不要說由偵查機關自己去下決定這樣其實對人權保障會更好否則我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8861.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8890.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
其實以前搜索權在檢察官那邊的時候當然有一些檢察官他就會濫用嘛那自從到法官之後其實已經規範到很規避掉很多濫用的問題啦但是我一直覺得很奇怪從106年最高法院就已經就已經就判決裡面就要求說有關GPS追蹤器的使用要件他希望要趕快研擬可是這7年過去了到底司法院有做了什麼樣的什麼樣的那個改正然後去正當化這個法律程序呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8891.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8893.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8907.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8930.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
草擬過用專章的方式在刑事訴訟法來修法但是在109年法務部就已經有公佈他的所謂的預告科技偵查法的草案那這邊也許是當時的氛圍或是當時的需要改由立法分工由法務部來處理聽長會不會有這個可能性因為訴訟法是司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8934.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8938.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8945.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8947.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8970.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8971.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8997.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9025.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個搜索扣押的這種概念就你卻要另立專法其實我跟你說這一次院版行政院版的科偵法專法裡面的條文我沒有我沒有反對我也蠻支持的但是我今天是對於體力上面為何要另立專法而不是設在刑事訴訟法裡面更何況今天我們很多東西要求的是法官保留那今天有司法院去就刑事訴訟法去修正那不是最好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9026.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9046.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
你今天讓法務部來去定一個東西然後叫你法官來遵守我個人覺得無法想像為什麼要把體力弄成這樣所以我自己在當檢察官的時候我的一個感覺是說你到底司法院在混什麼東西的為什麼不趕快修行這訴訟法然後搞得我們以前GPS都不能用 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9047.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9048.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9072.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9087.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
刑事機關我們的警察機關礙於預算我們都是用比他們舊好幾代的設備在辦他們結果今天我們好不容易說辦出一個了我們希望裝個GPS然後去跟蹤他的車結果法院說不准 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9088.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9089.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9116.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9142.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
法務部行政院不得不推這個很奇怪的專法出來。」委員我可以回應一下是那也在當時的時空背景是怎麼樣我可能無從得知啦不過我可以推敲的是偵查偵查作為主要是偵查機關在使用他最貼近第一線的偵查人員他對相關的偵查手段的日新月異他的人最快的掌握住 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9142.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9144.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9171.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9187.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
但是目前來講我覺得可以快速反映偵查機關所需然後做反映說適當的修正因為基本上司法院對相關偵查機關的相關偵查作為的日行便宜的相關手段我們的知識可能比較軟一點聽起來你的想法是這樣但是我的想法是比較是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9188.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9189.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9204.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9227.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我們會覺得會比較保障一點保障一些啦欸再給我一點時間吼好那還有吼就是更何況這些證據的認定將來有無證據能力或是證據力到哪裡這個也都是法官在認定嗎不是檢察官啊所以這個東西吼我還是覺得我還是對於這個體力去設計由專法來處理我還是有很多的意見吼那因為時間的關係吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9229.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9252.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我最後我是希望一個東西啦我想請問一下你們這些獲取的數位資訊請問部長獲取的如果這個法過了獲取的數位資訊你們怎麼監督怎麼管考怎麼讓人民信任你不會拿去做其他的用途我們會對一個會再制定一個定定一個內規的一個一個要點讓這些執行單位那個這個有這個依循 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9254.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9264.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
所以目前都還沒有這個法律過了我們會定定一個內控的一個機制所以目前都沒有任何的那個計畫嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9274.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9289.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
檢察官開始上線在科技偵查你了就資料怎麼保存不知道有沒有像德國的話他是有一個中立的單位在在審查嗎你們去看一下那個德國他是有設置一個外部的中立單位審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9290.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9292.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9307.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9308.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9333.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9351.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
就是說資料能夠讓我們瞭解一下你們對於將來的想法是怎麼樣好不好那個跟委員報告就有關你那個剛才委員提到那個歌詞的那一部分那個歌詞委員那個歌詞個人資料那個委員會的一個籌備處他們這邊是他們有他們在主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9351.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9371.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我了解啦但是各自籌備處我們也會很怕各自籌備處雖然是中立機關但走到最後會不會跟NCC一樣又被大家罵到臭頭就大家都開始質疑他的中立性這是我擔心的部分啦當然我很希望說制度都很完美不要讓人去濫用制度我的想法只是這樣謝謝兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9375.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9401.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好謝謝吳昭偉謝謝政務長謝謝李廳長那所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關競速送交個別委員及本會那由於稍後呢我們條文宣讀時間約9分鐘那與會人員可利用宣讀時間去洗手間稍事休息那在條文宣讀完畢我們就直接休息到11點20我們繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9404.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9410.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
現在請繼續宣讀現在進行討論事項那請議事人員先宣讀提案條文宣讀後我們會休息到11點20那再進行討論那如有修正動議請一併宣讀請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9423.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9451.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
科技偵查及保障法草案行政院提案名稱科技偵查及保障法第一條為規範科技偵查以保障人權並有效追溯犯罪確保國家安全維護社會秩序特制定本法第二條偵查中檢察官任由必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9453.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9480.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
檢查事務官、司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪情形及收集證據任有必要時一通。前項實施期間不得於連續二十四小時或累計於二日。實施當日不足二十四小時以一日計。有再次或繼續實施之必要者致詞應於再次實施前或期間屆滿前。由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後, |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9481.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9498.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
面記載第六條第一項各款之事項與實施調查之必要性及其理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。實施前二項調查前可預期實施期間將逾連續24小時或累積逾二日者。 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9501.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9526.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
得於實施前依前項規定向該管法院申請合法許可書,前二項法院許可之期間每次不得於30日有具繼續實施之必要者,至此應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書, |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9530.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9548.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
檢查中檢察官任有必要時得使用科技方法調查行動通訊設備之位置、設備號碼或使用之卡片號碼檢查事務官、司法警察官或司法警察因調查犯罪情形及收集證據任有必要時一同。 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9550.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9564.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
錢喪情形應由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第六條第一項各款之事項與實施調查必要性及其理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9565.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9582.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
錢向許可之期間每次不得於30日有繼續實施必要者至此應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9583.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9598.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
錢防制法 實施第一項調查時應技術上無可避免取得第三人之個人資料除為供第一項之比對目的外不得使用且於調查實施結束後應即刪除。 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9598.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9616.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
錢防制法第四條檢察官偵查或檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本行三年以上有期徒刑之罪有相當理由認為具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物與本案有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9619.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9646.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
從該空間外使用非實體侵入信息科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及錄攝錄影像,前項情形應由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載。第六條第一項各款知識項與實施調查之必要性及其理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9647.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9668.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
錢向許可之期間每次不得於三十日由繼續實施之必要者至時應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。第五條對軍事上應祕密之處所 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9672.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9688.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
費得該館長官允許不得實施前條之調查,前項情形處有防害國家重大利益者外不得拒絕。第六條第二條至第四條之許可書應記載下列事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9690.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9712.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
一、案由及涉犯之法條二、受調查人或物但受調查人不明者得不予記載三、使用之科技方法及使用該科技方法調查得取得之標的四、遣款之裝涉或實施方式五、執行機關六、實施期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9715.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9743.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
合法許可書之程序不公開之法院並得於許可書上對執行人員為適當之指示第二條之第四條之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符第七條於下列情形之一檢察官檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察有相當理由認為情況急迫而有立即實施之必要者得進行實施並因於實施後三日內 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9745.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9767.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
一（各該條規定以書面申請該管法院補發許可書一（實施第二條第一項之調查已於連續24小時或已累計於二日實施當日不足24小時以一日計二（實施第三條或第四條之調查前項之調查有下列情形之一者應即停止實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9768.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9792.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
檢察官不許可或於報請日期於三日未為許可之決定。二）法院未補發許可書或於申請日期於三日未為補發許可書之裁定。法院補發許可書者實施期間自實施之日起算。第一項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符。 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9793.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9809.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
行政院函請審議第18條經法院依第二條至第四條前條核發或補發許可書實施至調查結束或依前條第二項停止實施後實行機關應續名授調查人之姓名住所或居所 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9810.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9830.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 許可書和發機關文號實際調查期間有無獲得調查目的之資料及救濟程序陳報該管檢察官及法院由法院通知受調查人如任通知有妨礙調查目的之餘通知顯有困難或不能通知者應一併陳報調查結束或停止實施後 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9837.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9844.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。二）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。二）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。二）行政院函請審議:「洗 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9862.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9867.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。一）行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9881.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9900.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
第二條之第四條前條之調查所得資料,除已公案件證據之用,留存於該案卷或為後續偵查或偵查目的有必要長期留存者外,由執行機關於調查結束後保存五年,預期予以銷毀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9903.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9923.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
調查所得資料全部與調查目的無關者執行機關應及報請檢察官許可後銷毀之。第九條為執行刑事裁判除其他法律另有規定外檢察官檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察得准用第二條至前條之規定實施調查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9924.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9942.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
第十條受調查人對於第二條至第四條第七條前條之裁定或處分不符者得依刑事訴訟法提起抗告或申請撤銷或變更之。第十一條本法自公佈日施行宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10060.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10085.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
錢防制法及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及現在設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10172.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10188.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
現在開會提案條文已宣的完畢現在進行討論事項審查行政院函請審議科技偵查及保障法草案那麼因為有崗位委員表示我們本案先進行大體討論大體討論後再進行逐條審查請在場委員先就大體討論發表意見來論請 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10202.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10223.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我們先放主席我先放一段影片現在設計只要檢察官檢察事務官司法警察司法警察官認為有必要時就可以用科技偵查是不是是不是這一條已經拿掉啦這一條已經拿掉啦這一條已經拿掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10224.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10247.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我在這邊齁我剛剛看部長不在是不是請問市長部長不在對不對我要說齁這很嚴重欸請問拿掉了沒有我唸給大家聽我們的科技偵查法的第二條偵查中檢察官任有必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統及其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10248.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10260.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置檢查事務官、司法警察官、司法警察因調查犯罪情形及收集證據認為有必要時議同。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10263.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10284.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
請問這條拿掉了嗎?顧問報告部長的意思可能誤會了這個我就是我告訴你這兩種嚴重啦第一種比較輕微嚴重是他根本不懂條文他不熟悉嘛我老實跟你講我他跟我講拿掉的時候你知道我的反應是什麼嗎我嚇一跳我想說早上看的資料難道是舊資料裡面有更新資料我沒拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10285.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10290.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
結果他跟我講拿掉了他是對法條不熟悉還是說謊啊第二個更嚴重哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10296.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10316.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
第一條我講的我我剛剛講的不是你講什麼該關授權不受我講的就是必要性啊不是嗎他講拿掉啦必要性這個拿掉啦他拿掉啦我我再第二個我要跟跟我們這個呃部裡面說啊為什麼我要提這件事情啊因為其實剛我一看幾位委員也都表達很多的疑慮啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10318.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10344.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
從一開始今天科技偵查法我們確實是因為詐騙非常嚴重但是很顯然科技偵查法實施之後其實也不是只有詐騙的這個犯罪形態受約束嘛那剛剛部長跟我閃了半天第二個就是說今天我們願意授予今天檢查機關一個犯罪偵防的一個工具跟武器但是今天人權的保障也不能夠偏廢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10344.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10363.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以說換言之今天如果說檢察官檢察事務官司法警察官認為犯罪調查有必要就可以行使第二條這個這個所謂的一個科技偵查的一個武器的時候那麼這個必要性的內涵顯然就有點模糊嘛所以這是為什麼法治局認為說應該要增列一些門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10365.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10387.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 則不允許今天空白的讓檢察官司法警察官就行使這樣的一個對人權產生妨害的一個相關的一些一些一些作為所以換言之不是反對今天法務部今天用科技偵查的方式來偵辦犯罪偵辦詐騙而是希望在人權保障這個平衡天平上否則最近 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10388.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10415.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
最近你也發現這個所謂的王一川事件大家也是非常擔心啊那為什麼要擔心如果照這種情況之下也不用擔心啊也不只是說今天我們講第二條有一些這方面的疑慮第三條也有啊第三條今天根據第二條第三條設計偵查機關前面那個第二條他是在所謂的連續這個24小時或是兩日之後才要進到法官保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10416.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10423.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那這樣對這個我們的所謂的一般民眾的包括說隱私權包括說今天相關的一些保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10424.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10447.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
是不是足夠,這個我覺得法務部要好好去思考去研究,很多學者也對這提出一些擔憂啦。那第二個就是說基本上包括說第三條第六條裡面講到使用科技方法追蹤未知或調查行動通訊設備,受調查對象並未區分被告或第三人。我剛剛前面有聽到我們莊瑞雄委員啊,有質詢的有講到啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10448.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10475.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
你照你的方式他沒有區分的情況之下的話也許想查的是羅志強那旁邊第三人今天莊岳雄倒楣嘛在旁邊就一旦被你的射程打中啊所以被告跟第三人今天啟動科技偵查的一個做法本來就應該有不同的門檻這在我們其他形式輸送法制乃至於通信監察保護裡面也都有類似的設計嘛那為什麼今天科技偵查你想要查羅志強最後連莊岳雄一起打呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10476.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10480.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10494.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10523.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
但你今天你們一定要提專法你要提專法但專法裡面相關的一些我剛剛講是所謂法官保留程序性的保障這足不足夠真的我覺得法務部要注意而且最後還是要再講抱歉剛剛那個是一個很嚴重的事情你怎麼可以針對說我今天詢問你今天第二條這必要性的問題的時候你竟然跟我講那一條拿掉了就是沒有拿掉不管你任何理由在講你誤解還怎麼樣條文就是沒有拿掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10524.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10543.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以到底是對法條不熟所以政部長搞錯了還是說今天就是當場想要欺騙想要欺瞞那這兩個情況其實我覺得都是一個很糟糕的狀況我請法務部提供說明給我啦以上好謝謝羅委員因為我們現在是大體討論好來請那個專委員謝謝專委那個次長我延續我早上的那個質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10551.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10577.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我還是會認為說第七條這個帝王條款我不曉得你的看法會怎麼樣啦早上我看廳長也一直在那邊笑嘛那是說這種東西對話是有它的實意的啦那針對我提出的疑慮因為早上的時間比較短一點我提出的那些疑慮你像譬如說我先講第一個好了啦我們現在本來就是說打詐專法對不對那第一個其實這也不是打詐專法啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10579.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10581.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10599.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10602.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10625.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10628.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10649.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10650.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10666.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10668.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10688.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10690.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10703.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10708.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我叫你你像比如說如果哪一天立法院說你們超過24小時沒有超過24小時的累計沒有超過兩天的你們弄這樣的一個科技去偵查的數量多少你來回答是說掛齋沒有統計數字因為沒有人告訴你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10719.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10747.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
你現在這個是已經是連司法警司法警察官司法警察都可以做執行判斷沒有人監督他的捏我是認為會變到最後變成腐爛你內部會你要怎麼樣去有機會去做反省這兩個問題我覺得難道你司法院或者那個次長這邊你們不覺得會有疑慮嗎以上好那我們是不是先請次長答覆那再請其他委員就大體討論進行發言來請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10749.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10773.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
好那首先那個羅委員的質疑啦那必要時的要件夠不夠那事實上我們必要時這個要件在我們刑訴法裡面出現了非常多在強制處分出現的這個要件那我們拿搜索來講搜索他的要件就是必要時搜索他是對人對物一個更強制甚至進入住宅的一個人生的一個強制處分他都用這個搜必要時為要件所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10774.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10800.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
本案這個本案的這個條文其實他都沒有這這麼強高強度的這個強制處分所以我們用這個必要時其實立法力體力上並不是沒有這第一個第二個您提到的就是說我們這一個科技偵查法要不要去區分被告跟第三人做不同程度程度的層級化的一個構成要件來處理我跟委員報告這老師講的確德國法上他是有第三人跟被告的區別 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10800.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10828.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
但是這是一個立法我老講他是一切是個立法選擇問題在我們國家裡面的強制處分很多狀況他也沒有區分被告跟第三人我拿這一個鑑定來講鑑定也沒有他是一個很強的強制處分發鑑定許可書他本身是個很強的強制處分他也沒有在區分被告或第三人吊取票扣押這都是非常強烈的一個強制處分他沒有分被告或第三人所以我覺得強制處分要不要區分被告或第三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10828.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10856.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我們其實到時候未來可以有法官在做核票之後他去做這個核票與否的這個決定並不是說一定要區分被告或第三人那另外有關於我們莊委員有提到的緊急第七條緊急的狀況事實上我們所有的強制處分幾乎都有涉緊急的例外狀況包括搜索他有緊急監聽他有緊急監聽扣押有緊急狀況可以調取票也有緊急 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10858.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10876.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
槍指主憤他必須要讓執法機關在某一個狀況之下他可以緊急去處理但是他的確要有事後的一個救濟機制就是第七條所設計的法官補發第七條不是他緊急之後就沒事他事後還要呈報法官去補發他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10877.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10895.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 bicy 若不准許他事後會產生證據排除的問題所以他並不是說緊急之後就沒事的我們就設計他事後我講的是沒有超過24小時沒有超過兩天的我跟委員報告對那這在這第七大不規範在第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10897.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10899.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10920.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10921.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10936.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10956.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
檢查手段,我們認為這部分應該交由這個司法警察或檢察官來職權來行使。一旦超過了24小時,一旦超過兩天,它就有可能形成生活圖像,就要盡到我們法官保留的這個原則來進行,這樣才能符合我們偵查上的這個人權保障跟發現生死的一個平衡點啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10956.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10969.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這一點跟這一點市長我當場來回應啦就是說這個跟一般強制處分不一樣啦你去搜緊急狀況你去搜找科技那大家搞不好都會知道啦啊我們現在提供你們這個叫做神不知水鬼不覺的捏沒人知道捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10971.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10977.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
你你有必要性你說要去什麼人引導他去搜索,我緊急狀況可以啊,那當場人會知道啊,對不對?說不定我們說不定沒什麼叫就出來啊,啊你這不是啊,你這沒人知道啊,我是在講這樣的一個認證,你們再考慮啦,你們再考慮看看有沒有辦法有更精進加了一點什麼,這個畢竟還是一種疑慮,而且我擔心的是什麼,氾濫。 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10997.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11018.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
對各位報告啦吼那這24小時內的並不是我們沒有定在這一個課程法並不代表他不受控制只是要用什麼方法去控管他剛剛答詢的時候已經提到了24小時內司法警察去做他未來一定要在內機內控內規裡面相關的行政規定就要規範好他要怎麼樣的立案要怎麼樣的進行相關的保管程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11019.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11021.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11041.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11069.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那我聽起來啦我先做一個建議你們內部先去炒你齁因為進入主條我們還是會有附帶決議的需要那其實委員所關切的就是凡走過必留下足跡啊那您在24小時內不具有檢察官保留但是你們的內禁內控是否會留下未來如果為了追查有不法獨職的時候有留下這樣的一個足跡這樣的紀錄那才能知道有沒有被做過嘛不能準規罪沒魂嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11069.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11071.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
負債決議上的我們怎麼樣來表達讓未來在執行的時候這些細節的細則的部分能夠有所拘束好那我也再提醒一次因為剛我聽詳細聽了羅委員的詢問跟剛剛他跟部長的對答 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11092.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11093.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11107.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11130.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
布送院的那個第二條的認知那我是建議你們現在的認知一定調整到送院版過來的這個認知避免跟我們委員在對話的時候產生了一些分歧好不好那現在我看到有吳昭偉有黃總昭是哪一位先你們有舉手沒有嗎我剛剛不是有看到舉手黃總昭好來因為現在我在大體討論我很想我還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11136.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11163.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
表達一個最基本的立場我們今天用科技偵查的手段去對於犯罪實施進行偵查在打擊犯罪的必要性上絕對是有必要的那否則的話過去產生了非常荒謬的狀況也就是這些罪犯他們已經進入高科技時代用高科技的手段在犯案 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11164.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11167.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11183.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11208.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
讓我們現在整個法規範的秩序狀態下面成為了是壞人精神抖擻武器非常的多我們的檢警辦案辦案累得跟狗一樣然後最後還不一定有實際上面的效果這種荒謬的狀況在過去這幾年我們從基層的警察檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11209.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11234.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
調查局的同仁他們所提出來的抱怨其實我們都有聽到這也是為什麼我們一直催促我們一直催促不能夠讓我們科技偵查的法律授權沒有一個法律授權的基礎拖延了這麼久我當初在質詢司法院秘書長的時候其實我就講得很直白 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11235.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11253.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
德國從1992年以後到現在針對有關於科技偵查的手段在刑事訴訟法的修法是不斷的與時俱進不斷的在修人家已經修了上百個條次了結果我們的司法院動都沒有動 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11255.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11272.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團的立場是在針對有關於打擊犯罪必要的科技偵查手段上面根據對於不同的人權侵害的程度用層級化的法規設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11274.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11298.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我相信這個應該是國內刑事訴訟法學界的共識啦也是不管是基層的檢察官或者是法官大家都可以採認的一個方法但是我認為在立法體力上我今天早上質詢的時候我相信我說的很明白了大家看完了所謂的科技偵查法的條文以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11299.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11321.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
除了第一條跟最後那兩條其他的部分根本就應該要規範在刑事訴訟法當中才會讓刑事訴訟法裡面就有關於發動偵查的法律授權依據強制處分科技偵查能夠比較完整的在一個法典裡要不然東跳西跳東跳西跳 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11322.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11336.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
特別是我今天針對有關於空中實施調查的方式上面你們號稱這個是一個課證法那課證法也沒規範要回到刑事訴訟法最基礎的規範條文228條來當作依據我老實講我很擔心今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11342.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11363.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
司法院刑事廳的廳長在立法院說放心沒有問題用228條可以當作授權的基礎那我直接的懷疑就是法官會買單嗎法官會買單嗎那當你針對有關於偵查犯罪的手段法律授權的基礎條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11365.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11386.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
明明就應該要放在刑事訴訟法裡面讓整個規範更完整那卻現在切出一些條文把它放在科技偵查的專法裡我老實講我知道法務部的同仁黃市長有很多的無奈你們需要用的東西嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11387.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11410.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
但司法院就不關心不積極不熱衷不關他們的事情所以搞到你們必須要特別法來弄但是我們在進行有關於司法相關的修法的時候我們是沒有辦法接受或是不應該去接受法務部跟司法院兩個各掃門全邪的狀態因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11412.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11440.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
如果這樣子持續的不斷的下去的話那以後真的會沒完沒了以後真的會沒完沒了所以在大體的上面對於行政院終於推出了科技偵查的法律授權的基礎這件事情我們是支持的因為我們已經呼籲非常久我們事實上自己的版本提出來的時間早就提出來了我們只是一直在等排審 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11441.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11442.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
到今天都還沒有被排審 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11443.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11472.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那你們行政院用專法的方式突然生出來了以後今天排審對內容上面剛剛一些委員他們所提出來的關心我覺得你們有必要去進一步更細緻的說明所謂更細緻的說明指的是說譬如說使用GPS在24小時之內如果我們今天要強化人權保障的話我們一開始全部都用法官保留的令狀控制 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11474.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11497.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
負不符合檢察官方案的需要?司法院對於這件事情同意或不同意?因為接下來申請令狀的申請案就全部會到司法院那邊去了。司法院準備好了嗎?還是說我們要用一些層級化的控制。有一些是事前控制,要發才能做。 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11498.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11507.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那有一些是事後控制那不管是事前控制還是事後控制當有人違反法定的調查程序去非法 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11508.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11529.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
採取一些強制偵查的作為的時候那我們事後是不是有好的救責機制可以救責這個可能各個不同的委員大家都會提出他們的高見那可能也是法務部或者是司法院接下來要非常嚴肅面對的問題因為現在是處於在大體討論的狀態因為我們一開始在整個立法的選擇上面我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11537.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11565.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
基本上是認同非常多的學者跟檢察官他們自己都認為應該要規範在刑事訴訟法裡面整個規範的體力才會完整所以我先清楚的表達我們的立場就我所知吳宗憲召委下個禮拜應該也會排刑事訴訟法放在專章裡面的一個修法的條文我希望到時候在最後立法政策的選擇上 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11567.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11583.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
到底是要透過這樣的專法還是說能夠透過在刑事訴訟法裡面把它訂完整那這件事情等到最後大家再討論要進入院會處理之前可以再有一個政策上面清楚的決斷以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11586.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11603.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
謝謝黃總召在那個吳釗偉說之前主席這邊先做一個程序上的說明那誠如黃總召所言有關於科技偵查是不是要再用刑訴在刑訴法當中訂定專章還是現在的行政院版是以專法的方式呈現就我個人的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11603.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11605.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11630.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11645.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
三個黨黨團的或者委員的版本的刑訴法那跟委員會說明一下我們的路徑因為立法例不同我們不在委員會先做抉擇而是先在委員會就相同的立法例的法案我們併案審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11646.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11654.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議︰ |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11664.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11666.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11688.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11703.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
謝謝主席有關這個部分其實剛剛我有聽那個黃國昌召委他所說的那其實跟我剛剛在詢答的時候那8分鐘因為我跟那個黃總召並沒有溝通過這件事情但是剛剛我講的其實跟黃委員剛剛大體討論講的內容幾乎一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11708.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11727.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以說就法律人的角度去思考這件事情其實我們的邏輯是一致的就是覺得說這個東西為什麼是另立專法但到底司法院是不是怠惰於某些事情這我想說我們兩個觀念不謀而合一定是就法律人或是像我實務界出生的或他學界出生的對於這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11729.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11731.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11747.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11769.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我用我的理解很多東西不能夠就是用用坐在辦公室裡面去試想說這個條文要怎麼設計所以在在這個到底你要賦予檢察官檢檢他們到什麼樣的的偵查的工具到什麼樣的強度其實你不能夠說用通保法的那個概念下去套 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11770.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11799.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
因為我有看到很多很多人給我的資料包括法治局那邊給我的資料其實他變成是用通保法的概念下去套人權保障然後再去套到GPS其實兩者在實務上面的運作強度完全不同如果你所有東西都要求要像通保法那樣子的話那其實沒有一個犯罪你能夠查下去第二個就是其實犯罪的偵查是非常浮動的所以為什麼德國法他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11800.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11801.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11807.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11831.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
判罪事實交給我們我們不是神我沒有辦法知道背後的原因是什麼都必須經過偵查長時間的抽絲剝繭你甚至會發現被害人原來才是被告就被告竟然是被害人這都在實務上面非常常見的所以不可能存在說我很多東西在第一時間我就把你區分說這個人叫被告這個人叫第三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11833.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11859.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這個絕對是今天你只要我覺得不管在座當過檢察官或是在看直播當過檢察官的警察的一定很了解我在說什麼所以這兩個強度的保障我認為不能拉在一起我說我看到有一些人他提的法案甚至說要求說像什麼叫沒有其他的偵查方式以後才能夠用科技偵查我覺得這個是完全不懂科技偵查不懂偵查的人在講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11860.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11888.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
因為如果照這樣講GPS都不用不用用了因為不是沒有別的偵查模式啊你叫人家跟監也可以啊可是我可能20個人才能跟一個因為我必須分三班制我可能要編20個人去跟一個被告那其實這是很傻的更何況我們面對的被告就像剛剛黃總召說的他用的東西是日新月異他用的東西就是我剛在詢答的時候講的他用的都是低流的東西而且他毫無法規的束縛 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11889.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11896.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那我們今天綁手綁腳的情況下你要去對付這樣的犯罪集團我跟你講我的經驗是不可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11896.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11898.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11924.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11928.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案．一）行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11949.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11971.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
因為我們還是要保障人民所以我們對於數據的取得我希望還是應該類似像德國一樣成立一個甚至外部的中立機關來監督你所獲得的這些那個這些數據資料你怎麼運用你有沒有好好保管有沒有定期銷毀這才是我們應該重視的點好謝謝各位好謝謝吳沙偉謝謝申委員主席各位同仁我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11979.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11998.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
確實有關於究竟相關的科技偵查的這些限制究竟是應該訂定專法還是在刑事訴訟法裡面看起來大部分的法律學者都認為說應該要訂在刑事訴訟法的專章裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12001.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12022.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
但是今天行政院之所以會用提出專法的這樣的方式來提來這個進行這個科技偵查的這個保障法我想這個這個他這個困難跟這個考量我們這個本委員會大家也都知道為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12024.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12026.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
我只是在這邊稍微提提提醒一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12044.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12052.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
確實行事訴訟法的在定定在行事訴訟裡面他確實知道他的他的道理跟正當性但是因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12055.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12082.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
你由這個法務部來提出專法他其實他在雖然條文都一樣內容他的限制保障都都相同但是他在精神上面就變得不太一樣法務部所提出來他重視的就是發現真實這是在偵查犯罪的過程中為了發現真實他的必要採取的手段他的他的變得立法的精神在這裡但你如果在刑事訴訟法裡面他就不是發現真實的你他就是程序正義的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12083.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12086.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12104.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12105.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12128.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12146.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
是比較容許的。但是行事訴訟法如果過於頻繁的修正對行事訴訟法來講他本身更需要更大的安定性所以我個人是倒是比較傾向於說在在行事訴訟法裡面就科技偵查的一些原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12148.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12172.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
注定在刑事訴訟法裏面但是因為你這個犯罪太陽的這個科技手法是日新月異而且他的速度可能未來速度很像比我們想像的快你因應的這個相關的這個偵查科技偵查的手法跟他所需要像我們現在這一次的這個專法他其實真的定有規範的大概就GPSM花車跟這個熱線相儀大概就這三項但你可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12173.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12202.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我們立法完成公告之後可能有新的我們想像不到的的犯罪方式科技犯罪方式他必須有一新的因應因應方式那未來如果說我們全我個人是是對於釘釘在形式輸送法我我我是也是贊成啊但是我是有一點這個疑慮就是未來他會不會你因應的各種新新的的科技之後你的形式輸送法的安定性怎麼會被破壞必須不斷的去修正這個形式輸送法的有關的這個這個科技偵偵查的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12203.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12204.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12229.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12246.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
這個議事資料裡面只給我們科技偵查法的資料並沒有給我們形式形式做法的對照條文那所以在這討論裡面大家會其實可能討論有些在發言都已經他自己黨團的的條文就跟他的發言是是想是相反的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12247.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12273.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以我是建議說這個雖然說在體力上面很少這樣做但是我是建議說我們意識人員是不是肩拔行事作用法的對照對照條文能夠一起提供給大家作為參考就作為參考資料就是大家可以比對你在24小時裡面偵查你所採取的這些要件各黨雖然他現在體力在不一樣的法裡面但是他我們在討論才不會說我們先討論今天討論的東西到時候下禮拜吳宗憲稍微再排行事作用法之後我們又重新 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12274.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12282.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
重新再看一次然後又要把今天大家討論的結論又拿來再對照我覺得這個這部分請主席參佐是不是能夠這樣做以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12284.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12310.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
好謝謝齁謝謝非常感謝沈委員其實剛剛幾位委員召委總召的發言我覺得都深具意義啊從不同的面向切入來探討兩個立法體系不同的版本的法案那如何未來因應目前社會的需要那麼我這邊齁先真的大家同意啦因為過去沒有這樣的體力就是說我們下週因為吳釗偉已經口頭表達他要排審刑事訴訟法那刑事訴訟法有三個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12311.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12336.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那委員會這邊的議事人員也已經準備好三個版本的對照表但是呢今天因為他不是我們的審查資料那我想是以附件的方式提供給委員待會在審我們科技偵查法專法的時候可以看到下週要排審的三個版本的形式輸送法的條文對照那當然就可以知道說哦原來目前我們審這個條文下週可能在刑訴他是什麼樣的位置那內容上規範是不是類同 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12338.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12338.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12364.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12389.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那在這裡呢我也處理一個會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行到議程討論事項處理完畢為止好OK好那我們就請那個資料就印給大家那請問大體討論部分還有沒有要發言的沒有的話呢那我們現在就進行主條來那我們開始進行主條審查哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12391.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12405.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
檢查到處理完畢為止,討論事項處理完畢為止。」好。那我們第一條就是專法的名稱請問各位對法名稱部分目前有行政院提案在場大家對專法名稱有 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12407.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12409.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12435.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12462.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那如果沒有的話我們是不是就叫行政院提案通過?OK接下來第二條的部分第二條部分因為就進入到會跟刑訴的部分有關了那我們稍微先休息先我把停下來讓那個資料送到各位的桌上後我們再進行第二條以後的討論讓大家可以參照到下週要排審的刑事訴訟三個版本的內容來王總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12465.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12492.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
因為我覺得就刑訴的部分有三個黨的立委不管是黨團還是委員各自提的版本那章偉剛剛也說明得很清楚了吧我們下個禮拜併案來處理那在立法選擇的政策上面反正今天處理有關於課徵法的部分下禮拜處理刑事訴訟法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12492.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12516.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那到底在立法體力上面要選擇哪一個最後要到院會決定以前大家看有機會再來做溝通所以我覺得先把這個條文順過去這件事情本身我並不反對我並不反對那只不過說有一些委員他們所提出來的疑慮我認為是有道理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12516.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12531.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我認為是有道理的因為最近科證法處理的事情剛好跟一些可能通訊監察的資訊或者是個資的事情社會大眾會疑慮的事情剛好結合在一起的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12532.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12548.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那也會引發非常多人的關切那我倒是認為說就刑訴的部分我們下禮拜那既然召委排案都做了這樣子的決定那我們基本上都尊重因為我想不管是國民黨的召委還是民進黨的召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12550.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12566.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
兩邊都釋出善意嘛最後立法的形式上面大家可以再討論到院會的時候再做一個定奪所以我覺得先把條文順過去但是在順這個條文的過程當中我覺得有一些事情藉由逐條的審查讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12569.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12585.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
法務部跟司法院把話說清楚我覺得是重要的事情比如說就第二條的部分我基本上對於他們所設計的條文我沒有什麼太強烈的意見但我有一個具體的問題想要請教一下司法院就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12592.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12615.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
針對GPS的部分針對GPS的部分就是在24小時之內如果我們都要求法官保留的話司法院贊不贊成因為啦24小時之內都要求法官保留的話我相信有法官做把關啦大家應該就會相對而言會比較放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12616.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12645.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
但我現在比較關心的是第一個司法院能不能夠handle第二個如果在GPS追蹤的時候司法院目前法官執行的狀態有沒有辦法24小時待命因為他們在出去追人的時候不是犯人啦壞人不是早酒晚霧通常是晚上甚至是半夜你好不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12646.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12649.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12663.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12687.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那在這個時候如果在24小時之內都要求法官保留的話我的問題很具體只要檢察官認為說這樣子他們可以處理那司法院那邊也認為可以處理把他拉到法官保留的這件事情我相信沒有人會反對但重點是可以處理嗎這個是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12688.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12710.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好謝謝黃總召跟委員會說明目前我們在處理的是第二條的主條討論那現在已經將下週的三個刑訴法的版本的對照也發給大家請大家可以參考但是我們今天只處理科證法專法的條文那現在是請第二條那剛剛黃總召意見是不是分別請次長跟廳長來做回應請 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12714.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12715.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
洗錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12743.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12766.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我我覺得在人力的配置上司法院我覺得目前可能怕很難應付的到沒有啦我希望你們話再講得更明白一點因為我有請教有參與整個法案的研擬跟討論的刑訴的老師因為那都是在學界的老朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12767.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12788.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
他們講的很直白啊所以24小時之內不用法官就是司法院要的啊司法院要的司法院又不敢講不是啊你要把現實上面的狀況講出來讓所有參與討論的立委跟在關心這部法案的社會大眾來自於我們非常多基層的檢調 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12790.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12792.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12812.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12837.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
go through法條的過程當中你們各個主管機關不管是站在法院的立場或是站在檢查章的立場能夠講得更清楚一點。第二個除了現實上面的需要以外第二個你非常重要的一個reference就是外國的立法力因為你針對不同強制處分的類型跟侵害的程度去進行層級化的層級化的 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12839.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12862.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
保留跟層級化的設計這應該已經是學界的通縮了無用質疑只不過我們在說明我們自己的法條設計的時候你們可以更清楚的跟大家說明譬如說可能在國內討論會比較多的在德國的刑事訴訟法或者是在美國他們在強制處分的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12863.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12883.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
在用的時候他們的reference就是說其他國家他們一定在任何的社會當中都有兼顧人權保障跟犯罪偵查兩者平衡點的拿捏所以我們才會出現所謂層級化保留或層級化不同設計這樣子一個重要的概念出來那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12884.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12899.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
過就在review過這個條文的時候你們要很清楚的讓委員們跟社會大眾都可以瞭解現在的狀況外國的立法力這樣子我們才不會才不會第一個引發誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12900.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12903.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12927.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12950.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
的次長因為我相信兩位都是常任的文官那在法律的專業上面跟在這個法條實際的討論上面都有相當程度跟長時間的參與能夠在法條討論的過程當中把實際的狀況到底是什麼更清楚的跟所有的委員還有社會大眾做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12952.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12977.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
好謝謝黃總召吼那今天跟委員會說明一下那待會再請廳長答覆吼那個我們看到第二條吼那因為我們今天的版本是專法是科偵法那另外三個的刑訴的內容大家可以看得到跟目前的專法呢是有相同的地方但是呢其他的三個刑訴的版本有額外的地方那因為我們今天不是在討論刑訴我們就請看專法的部分吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12978.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12989.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那至於呢司法院今天可能對司法院來講今天這樣的一個雙軌審查是對你們來講是模擬考啦下周審刑訴的時候就是你們的大考 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12989.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13017.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那建議今天委員提出來意見比如說剛剛黃總召在關切人力是否充足能夠應付法官保留的這個需要那我希望司法院在下週進行刑事審查的時候待會我們吳阿偉先宣告你們先提醒啦你們可以先做好準備如果真的有人力不足你們要提出來那請問委員對於第二條科偵法第二條的條文內容目前有行政院提案內容在場那麼大家有什麼意見來請羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13020.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13045.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
首先還是強調一下就是打詐是全民大家都期待的我也認同一定要給這個我們司法單位足夠的武器但是武器當中跟隨的人權保障跟這個相關的一些隱私保護諸如此類的這個法議的橫評這個我覺得是一樣是要提醒這個我們的就是主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13046.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13074.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那當然我也看了一下不管是院版或是幾個黨團的版本當中的一些意見很多地方有相同之處那我看到立法院法制局延期意見也歸納一些學界的意見那我是覺得說可以把它保留跟我們的這個將來這個刑事訴訟法這邊也將來就是要一起來做政黨的協商但是我們再來做細緻化處理不過有幾個提醒就是說比如說以這個第二個第二條來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13075.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13099.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
他在所謂的未遇連續二十四小時會累計未遇二日實施當日不足二十四小時日期就沒有到所謂的那個連續二十四小時會累計未遇二日的情況之下他其實就是幾乎是接近空白授權給不只是檢察官檢察事務官司法警察官司法警察又檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13100.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13101.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13117.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13135.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
但是是不是直接用這種方式就是空白授權給這所有的人都可以來發動這個所謂的一個科技工具這點我覺得還要再審視那我認為實際有幾種幾個做法上的東西當然法官保留的部分我想剛剛司法委員講過有人力負荷的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13137.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13138.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13162.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13190.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這個我們的通訊監察保護法號來及德國刑事輸送法裡面就是說其他調查犯罪事實或探查被告所在地的成效不大或有困難那或者是按照我們的通訊保障及監察法第五條裡面的一個保留的方式是曾以其他方法調查人無效果或以其他方法調查合理顯示不能為達成目的會有重大危險情形換言之對必要性的部分加一些所謂的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13192.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13194.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13217.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13232 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
對人民做政治偵訪王一川的狀況在大家剛好這個時間點上有一些疑慮的時候那結合到科技偵查保障法的這個部分的話那我不認為這個所謂的疑慮是完全沒有原因的 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13232.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13248.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那這種情況之下那加上我們現在前面也講說關於立法體力的問題嘛所以我個人對這個部分我有一些保留那希望能夠有更細緻化的一個討論以上好謝謝那個是不是我們先請廳長然後次長回應然後再請吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13251.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13270.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
謝謝主席剛剛黃總召有提到說這24小時以內的要不要採法官保留那這部分我剛剛請木娘幫幫了解了一下那24小時之內沒有採法官保留並不是司法院去要求的我們並沒有直接要不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13270.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13284.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我還是要強調司法院目前的人力的確是持緊的如果在24小時之內的全部都進到法官保留來這邊這個的確我們的人力可能會有點難以應付那第二點就是有關於剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13288.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13291.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13317.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13318.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13341.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13362.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
檢警那個警方在跟歹徒對峙的時候你用空中偵查他的被告還是被害人或是被告的所在空中的臨時性的偵查這個時候並不需要特別的法律授權因為他的干預性是非常低輕度的干預但是如果你要追蹤特定的人也長達一定的時間的時候那可能比較需要法律的授權以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13363.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13378.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
好,接下來請次長有沒有必要回應?有齁,來。跟著報告羅委員的意見的回應,那的確如羅委員所講的就是說這個科證法要做怎麼樣的一個事後的控制機制,它其實是有一個成績化的一個概念,那 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13379.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13404.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
如果採法官保留或檢察官保留他的問題點可是剛剛討論一模一樣無論法官保留或檢察官保留他的現實面可不可能做到檢察官人力現在也一樣更吃緊也要檢察官去對司法警察20小時內的GPS全面性的核票檢察官照樣的人力上會產生崩解第二個是現實上有可能沒有辦法臨時取得到票的馬上發現車手正在正在 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13405.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13407.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13431.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13431.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13446.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13448.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13473.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13500.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
行政機關司法檢查機關他本來在內控上就應該要有一個行政規則上去做內控啊這本來一個行政機關依法行政本來就該做這法不是只有法律立法院通過法他要遵守行政規則他通過了他照樣要遵守透過一個這種層級化保障方法去規制我相信才能夠達到這個發現真實又能夠人權保障的一個balance以上補充謝謝那因為吳委員先問他來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13501.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13528.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
好我想就條文啦因為已經進入主條了因為剛大體大家已經交換過意見了那謝謝這個主席請提供就有關於科偵法專法方式跟其他三位委員各黨都有好的刑事訴訟法的條文來對應我就直接看這一條的條文那第二條是對應於刑事訴訟法153有的是放在之三有的放在之二那以內容來講好我們來看相次 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13530.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13558.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
第一項誰可以發動偵查中的檢察官認為有必要或者是檢察事務官司法檢察官或司法警察應調查犯罪情形及收集證據有必要一同嗎對不對所以這這個前提誰可以發動其實幾個版本是一致的第二個呢在這個用什麼樣子的科技方法一樣都寫到同樣的方法文字都落在全球衛星定位系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13560.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13586.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
其他或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置。」方法也是一樣的嘛對不對新興的工具的條文也是一樣的好再來講到剛剛講的這個稱其化的保護就實施期間來看好我們進入第二項那實施期間我現在只是講院版加上另外三個刑事訴訟法的版本都一樣是落在24小時或累計逾兩日 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13588.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13611.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
然後連續當日不以二十四小時不足二十四小時者以一日為計。」這個也一樣嘛 對不對好再來下一個在下一個level有再次或繼續實施之必要者致詞要在下次實施的屆滿前一樣尋這個程序這個四個版本都一樣嘛 對不對好我們看到第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13612.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13613.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 規定規定規定規定規定規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13627.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13651.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案的規範,最後一項到底法院許可的期間是多長?四個條文四個版本寫的一樣都是30天所以回過頭來講就舊條文來講這個條文大家對於發動者工具你層級化的保護時間然後的界定然後要延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13653.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13678.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
可預期性以及最後的這個每次的時間最長是什麼三十天條文都一樣所以我認為這一條應當是各黨的提案委員也好或是政院版也好都是有高度的共識那如果這樣的話我基本上覺得這一個條是這樣double check check check check四個條文都一致那我認為可以交行政院版通過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13679.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13685.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
就條文論條文因為沒有明確不一致的部分嗎好謝謝那個羅委員應該要發言嗎來 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13687.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13708.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我說過齁基本上他這個剛剛講的四個層次的一個做法嘛我說我沒有主張哪一個做法或是把大家的疑慮整理出來但是如果說今天法務部真的是講一句說最後就用最後一個方式或是剛剛那個三板都一樣啦齁用內控的方式的話那至少要做到剛剛莊育雄委員有提到疑慮嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13709.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13711.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13736.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13737.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13758.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13783.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那這種情況之下的話那你當然又是一個新的方式新的形式那會引起的人民的那個疑慮也不是我個人的疑慮啊抱歉我有看到學界有疑慮啊我看到立法院法治局在歸納大家意見也有疑慮嘛所以這樣的疑慮怎麼樣去展現出來那怎麼樣去回應這樣的疑慮那這個我覺得是政府機關要做的事情以上好謝謝我這邊做一個建議各位人參考齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13784.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13805.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那因為剛剛吳委員已經做一個四個版本的分析比較那羅委員之前的莊委員都有提到那麼因為我們這次很湊巧的兩個雙軌先後依次進行審查那我是覺得委員們可以回去就這個條次的部分哪些應該注意的事情可以用附帶決議的方式表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13806.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13807.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13829.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13850.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
可以嗎?同意同意那這樣的話我們第二條的部分照行政院提案通過好謝謝那現在我們看第三條的部分那第三條部分講的就是M化車啦那請問郭委員對於第三條的部分有沒有什麼意見要表示來那陳委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13857.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13881.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
好謝謝主席那我還是延續上午的這個尋討的部分我再次提醒我們相關部會未來在進行這個科技偵查的時候若無可避免取得這個無關第三人的個資的時候在執行上應該要特別注意的部分就是保存跟銷毀剛剛也有委員再次提醒那 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13882.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13898.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
要有妥善的這個機制降低資安風險的避免那資安外洩的情況我們應該要這個有所把關避免這個情勢再發生那由於這個科技偵查所獲得的這個數據量 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13899.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13900.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13921.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13940.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
好謝謝主席那一樣我就是快速的去review跟比較四個版本就第三條好的一個內容那基本上院版是用四項來為之我目前看起來就這個條文院版反而是跟嘉賓委員版是相對嚴謹的啦程序上規範的比較明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13941.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13950.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案,包括發動者、檢察官許可、時間不得逾三十日、陳俊宇委員提到的第四條文修正草案案,如果無可避免去取得第三人個人資料的話,有一定的使用限制,然後也有刪除條文的要求。 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13971.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13974.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13987.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13991.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14008.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14037.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我看這個就是大概我們中招委的版本有點不一樣啦齁中招委的版本有區分這個這個被告跟第三人有區分啦齁那我想是不是我們這個對因為我們還是還是對於是不是要區分被告跟第三人齁剛剛在大力討論的時候有做過討論所以我們是不是按照院版來通過好那如果委員會同意的話我們第三條按照行政院提案內容條文通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14038.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14051.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
好接下來第四條第四條講的是熱選項熱選項的部分這個好像也差不多來主席來有沒有第四條一樣就對照了版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14052.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14073.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 則明確對於最重本刑三年以上之有企圖刑之罪進行偵查然後來使用熱影像的方式所以關鍵的主體還有使用許可的期間程序跟幾個委員版本一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14074.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14075.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14094.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14103.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
有適時逐﹑這個五中院委員版本有適時逐任的部分這個他多了這個前提這個跟一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14105.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14129.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
認為說有相當理由跟有事實主任有事實主任他嚴格的非常多啦他會造成他在在真的使用熱像儀的前提會變得更加嚴格非常多你可能像像類似這種柬埔寨案的這種這種虛情致敬私刑拘禁私刑拘禁可能就就你就沒有辦法用事實認定來來發動這個熱像儀了 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14132.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14144.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
所以我這裡我個人是比較傾向政院行政院的版本好有沒有要回應還是我們這一個條文我後面有一條好不好先回 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14145.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14148.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14171.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14198.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
第二條他是關於軍事上陰秘密的部分他規定的就兩項而已啦那其實在另外三版本的行訴裡面都沒有規範沒有主席我反而覺得這個有什麼樣的不合理吧就是說我反而覺得說因為主席的思維是說另外的版本沒有那這裡要不要先hold住但是我反而認為如果我們先回到這個科證法裡頭我們如果認為這個條文是必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14199.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14217.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
然後後續再處理情愫的時候反而是在是不是要加嘛而不是現在就就決定這個吧。因為現在的我們走的審查的雙軌進行的方式這樣這個今天討論的專法版本只要一個條文保留我們就是到委員會會進入到政黨協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14218.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14230.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那下週五委員排的也是這樣這個條文保留也是送委員協商那未來兩個委員協商完成後會送請院長進行朝野協商那屆時呢這兩個委員會協商之後的 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14234.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14237.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14251.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14271.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
折衷啦。」我也來請來請各位報告這個條文倒不是其他版本沒有規定他是用不同方式呈現像那個胡宗憲委員版本他是用127條之規定準用之127條規定其實就是本條的第五條他是用這種方式都有寫包括趙偉寧的版本也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14272.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14301.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
你把你最後一項對最後一項準用127事實上127就是就是本條規定就是本條規定事實上都謝謝謝謝次長提醒吼那呃我在這邊再跟各位委員會說明一下因為看起來因為後面還有678幾個條文吼其實如果仔細看我們待會仔細看吼不然我們這一條先先暫暫停那我們往後面第六往上看搞不好我們整個看完了會認為其他的條文呢三個版本跟這個都 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14303.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14322.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
大同小異．那可能就這個留一個條文做保留我們可以以後做兩軌的一個整合的一個基礎可以嗎那我們先暫保留那我們繼續看那個第六條就是印記載事項對是記載事項印記載事項實施期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14333.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14348.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
好像差別的部分應保留事項我大概有差別的是我們中招委的版本有一個他增加了一個實施必要性及理由然後那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14352.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14377.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
這個吳宗謙召委的的版本吼他有這個每次不逾30日他是對室內他對室內調查僅限10日啊他有有有有增加了這個對室內調查的一個一個限制應該是這樣子好那麼請問委員還有沒有其他意見那如果沒其他意見我們第六條照行政院提案文字通過接下來請看第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14381.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14401.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
就是補發的程序。應該進行補發的。第七條是調查後的通知事項。補發許可。不對,這個第七條是那個緊急急迫的狀況的調查程序。要補發許可。後面才是通知。 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14407.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14427.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
如果第七條跟其他三個版本的文字大體相同,是不是我們先依行政院提案在專法部門先予通過?好,可以。好,第八條呢,就是屬於事後的通知程序。對。看起來。第八條有幾個差別,就是這個大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14435.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14462.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
五中憲委員版本他有有一個就是說他未經法院合票的案件他也要通知這個是他們整整夾第二個就是第三人連帶干預重大第三人的連帶干預重大的要通知這也是五中憲委員版本另外一個很重要就是資料銷毀檢察官要派派員在場這個是五中憲委員才有的才才才有的規定民眾黨的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14463.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14485.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
是由檢察官呈報法院通知的。」有些差別,那我們也可以在後續的刑訴三百門的討論中繼續審查。那因為今天是專法的部分,那請問大家對於第八條專法依行政院提案通過?可以。同意好,謝謝。同意。好,請看第九條。 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14491.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14518.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
第九條是執行刑事裁判後則准用本法的相關的規定這沒問題啊我看第九條其實這沒問題沒問題啦好那麼如果委員同意我們第九條一行政院提案條文文字通過好那麼第十條第十條是有關救濟的部分嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14525.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14536.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 提起抗抗沒有問題好那麼第四條專案法的部分行政院提案就依行政院提案文字通過好第十一條就是施行日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14543.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14561.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
現在我們回過來看第五條我在這裡跟縣委員說明那麼如果第五條不管有沒有保留我們在全案就算每個條文都通過我們還是可以保留送委員會協商就看縣委員覺得第五條要不要保留等一下我問一下第五條是對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14570.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14597.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
軍事上隱秘密的處所。」我們先看實質好不好?你如果要保留,要保留這條嗎?因為如果不保留也是做那個合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合… |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14602.079 |
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14613.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
因為主席如果已經我們等一下我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14625.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14642.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
對!對!對!就是第五條好一句!我意思就是這樣!好!謝謝!好!那麼我們第五條呢,照行政院提案文字通過!好!好!那麼,各位委員報告本案逐條均已處理完畢,作以下宣告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14643.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14668.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那本案審查完略擬具審查報告提請院會公決那麼本案呢需交由黨團協商那院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語用字用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14670.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14676.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 議程討論事項均已處理完畢。本次會議到此結束。現在散會。謝謝大家。 |