| IVOD_ID |
159832 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159832 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-31 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-31T16:36:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-31T17:09:22+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:32:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22902bedf9a457e5f81a5e9e1bc61778fc15670ac5e97bb5232f1291eaafe6828c09dfcc218e895f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:36:40 - 17:09:22 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-31T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會 第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員暨行政院國家發展基金管理會召集人劉鏡清率所屬單位就「國家發展基金投資如興股份有限公司及聯合再生有限公司之決策及監督管理作為」提出報告） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席我其實不太想要讓主委為難理由是說我必須要老實講我看完這些投資案幾乎全部都不是在你任內通過的但是這件事情整個國發基金的管理運作機制必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
35.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
60.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
要徹底的檢討否則會一而再再而三的發生因為我不想要讓主委為難剛主委說他身體好像有一點不太舒服所以就請主席直接問主委您希望單純的聽我講還是您希望有機會可以回應因為我如果不給你機會回應對你不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
61.345 |
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86.423 |
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那但是好像我一定要你講又好像搶你所難所以主委是不是可以請主席先詢問一下主委他是想要單純聽我講他們事後用書面補題因為我再跟國發會還有國發基金講一次喔我點出來的問題都是希望在最後做調查報告以前給國發會有respond有回覆的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
88.342 |
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106.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那現在我接下來要講的你們是希望說現在有答覆的機會您願意上來還是您不管是身體不舒服還是基於什麼樣的理由你只希望單純聽我講不希望回覆是不是可以請主席徵詢一下主委的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
108.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
129.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問主委那剛剛黃委員有提到就是說主委您是有希望說有回應還是說就單純黃國昌委員他說明然後主委日後再回應看主委的意思好我們回應好那這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
132.885 |
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159.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
黃委員因為主委的意思是如果他要回應的話是不是可以請他們上去要不然他們坐在那邊我站在這邊這樣不是很好吧好那就麻煩主委主委您現在身體狀況還OK嗎還好不是你會不會累或者是身體不舒服因為我剛聽到你說你身體好像有一點不太舒服我有點擔心沒有沒有現在OK齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
160.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
181.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
你如果身體不舒服隨時跟我講你要回去做就請主席才是就好齁其實齁主委講的沒有錯齁就是說整個國發基金每一年從累積起來是有獲利那但是我們看齁2016年以後投資的這幾家賺錢的有六家啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
184.135 |
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198.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
產賠的大概19家這個是我整理到2022年的經歷拉到2023年其實狀況差不了多少那這些數字其實也不是我編出來的這些數字其實我們大概去看你們所提供的財報 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
199.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
216.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
就可以寫得出來因為裡面有一些不是上市公司裡面有一些不是上市櫃公司所以我們在外面的公開資訊找不到那我看完了以後其實我很贊成我們的總統府秘書長潘蒙拉在當立委的時候講過一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
217.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
238.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
他說國發基金不要成為紓困基金國發基金不要成為紓困基金那個時候民進黨在野的時候本來是希望透過法律來去管國發基金的作業要點那但是現在就沒有這樣子做嘛所以我們還是在產狀條例的授權之下其實管理作業要點完全都是授權國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
241.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
263.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
在訂定的法律沒有介入法律沒有介入這個是2016年以後我們所看到的狀況我們2017年6月的時候投資了14.88億這個是主委有講當時投資的一些背景脈絡但是為什麼說大家覺得很困惑覺得很困惑的第一個問題就是說到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.424 |
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277.83 |
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我看到最新的資料到去年9月的時候已經虧了12.38億了這個是國發基金提供的資料投資了14.88億現在虧了12.38億這個是針對乳腥的狀況那當然我們會去追啊追是說因為當初我在追的時候國發會說投資評估過程嚴謹可遭公信這是當時的國發會主委陳美玲在國會備詢的時候說的但這是你們提供資料以後我去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
296.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
318.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
參與投資的評估意見炮聲隆隆不是質疑就是反對不是質疑就是反對三個外省的專家意見大概都是這個樣子大概都是這個樣子那看完了這些外省意見了以後我接下來看這個是國發基金管理委員會的會議紀錄15位委員裡面有6位請假諸位 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
323.342 |
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333.407 |
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你會不會覺得很困惑外省的意見這麼負面15位委員有6位請假然後這個案子就這樣子過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
336.224 |
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353.511 |
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這個是我們希望國發基金能夠解釋的第一件事但是你是新任的主委這也不是你任內過的案子要你說明很困難所以在野的委員才會有那個提案意義那這個主委您說您需要兩個禮拜的時間回覆對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
356.787 |
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369.562 |
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對嘛所以我也願意啦給你們兩個禮拜的時間回復因為盧西重大投資案不是代理就是請假現在我看了所有會議記錄以後我有另外一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
371.633 |
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397.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
因為其實那個管理會應該是最後最重要的一個會議但是你看了所有的投資的記錄以後主委你會不會發現其實絕大多數裡面的委員通常都是找代理要不然就請假很少自己來開會的主委你有沒有發現這件事還不是只有在盧鑫的案子其他的案子都這樣可以可以可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
399.08 |
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424.398 |
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跟委員跟跟委員報告就是這個管理會的成員有七個是部會的首長那確實憑良心講部會首長每一次都到確實有困難但是他們雖然說派代理來但是意見在內部都會去做成合然後來的這個代表是去陳述這個該部會的這個意見所以你認為每個部會都好好的去去去討論過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
426.498 |
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436.403 |
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這個我們不敢替其他部會講不是啊 這個就是我的問題嘛了解 了解 了解因為你一個管理會我們理論上它是一個最後最終做最後決定的地方嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
437.921 |
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我也坦白跟那做這個final decision的地方委員都不來那你們要不要重新的去檢討說那管理會的要點哪些人當委員這件事情我們要不要重新評估因為我其實不太想要走到最後一步走到最後一步就是現在給你們國發會定的管理作業要點全部用法律定你們希望這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
462.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
486.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
了解那就是我剛剛只是跟委員補充說為什麼那個部會會有一些代理的這個對這個就是我現在我講的還不是只有盧祐欣的這個案子其他的案子你們全部去看通通都一樣都代理都是代理那我就覺得很奇怪啊如果都代理的話那為什麼委員要找一些明明就沒有空來開會的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
488.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
512.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個你們要不要再重新想一下這個代理的你如果是外部的委員他是不能代理的那代理的委員都是部會的首長的委員這個這個這個我來我回去來檢討看看啦是嗎的確你你你現在提到的就是我們怎麼怎麼去看看在我去看一下是不是法律的問題我們有什麼有什麼樣的改善的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
514.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
542.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
可以嗎?可以可以可以這個就是問題嘛這些問題你沒有攤在陽光下面全體國人不會知道嘛那你也同意了嘛針對這個問題看了就很誇張啊因為大家都在問啊外省都是負面意見來開會的請假一堆代理的更多這個投資過到底誰要負責現在納稅人沒有辦法接受的事情是看起來是沒有人要負責嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
543.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
570.134 |
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因為也不知道是誰做的決定因為我老實講像陳美玲這個案子她卸任了國發會主委以後她一天到晚在喊冤說她雖然是主委這案子根本不是她決定是別人決定但是現在根本沒有人知道這一件事情到底怎麼發生誰要負責任到底誰要負責任因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
572.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
593.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
之前的主委龔明星說他比較倒楣被騙了我在這邊不要做什麼政治性的發言我在外面記者會全部都罵過了納稅人聽得下去聽不下去每個人心裡都有一把尺到底是國發會倒楣還是納稅人倒楣大家在問的是這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
596.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
617.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
國發基金那個時候承諾我要成立專案調查小組但不肯提供專案調查報告這個是我那個時候在追這件事情的時候客觀發生的狀況那也感謝這一次也感謝這一次我們成立了國發基金調查委員會我終於看到了當初的專案調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
619.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
633.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我終於看到了當初的專案調查報告那個主委或者是國發,主委很忙,主委可能自己沒有時間看這個調查報告那個國發基金的同仁有看過這份調查報告嗎?有啊你看了以後你的感想是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
636.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
661.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這一個調查報告我跟委員報告一下其實也是國發基金代表在董事會去提案專案去成立你知道為什麼國發基金代表會去提案嗎是這個就是也謝謝委員指正出來所以我先停一下所以我還是要苦口婆心跟主委講一件事主委你當初你剛剛在上面報告的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
662.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
689.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以我要求國發會去介入人家公司的經營主委其實你這樣的發言不是很妥當我坐在上面聽了不是很舒服但沒有關係啦你可能也認為說你是執政黨的官員可能要講一些話給交代但從我的立場來講如同在你旁邊那位國發基金的同仁講當初我要求的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
691.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
718.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
國發基金的董事善盡公司法裡面所賦予董事的權責這本來就是董事應該做的事主委您認同吧董事該盡他的職責是應該的對嘛所以他就因為我提出了問題他回去董事會要求提進行調查小組嘛沒錯好那調查小組調查出來的結果我那時候追半天 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
720.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
737.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
當時國發基金都不給我完全不給我我現在終於有機會看到了我看完了以後我自己感觸很深那我只想請問國發基金的同仁你看完這個調查報告了以後你們認同那個結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
741.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
761.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們必須尊重那個調查小組的報告因為裡面包括讀董包括國發基金派的代表包括會計師事務所那當時沒有提供當時我不在任但是我去看了我也是這一次看到這個調查報告裡面確實有涉及到一些機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
762.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
789.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
誰去把這個東西提供出去我們同仁確實會有那個責任直到這一次的這個調查委員會成立了來調閱資料我們也不敢貿然提供所以我們是問了這個律師的意見才提供出來然後用這個機密的這個方式處理大概就是用這樣的一個機密不機密是一回事啦現在你也問了律師了嘛你們所有的處置我都尊重啊現在我的問題是你覺得那個調查報告有反映現實嗎當初有好好調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
792.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
820.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
就我看到的董事會要他們調查的11個事項那另外他們也增加了三個事項然後哪一些不符合這個內控的這個程序或者說離職人員的這個面談分析記錄必須要留存等等這一些部分他是有這個調查報告裡面去顯現出來這一些東西那至於說我個人是不是完全滿意對不起這個部分我比較超出我的這個判斷範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
821.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
839.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
沒有啦,我其實從來不會問你們個人的看法我其實只有一個問題對於這個結果從國發基金的角度,因為國發基金不是有派董事嗎?董事總是要表達意見嘛這個董事對這個調查結果背書嗎?其實這個是我關心的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
840.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
863.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
是這個董事在那一邊是表達就是說這一些要進行改善那各個權責部門也要提報這些改善的計畫並由集合式因為我們不介入公司的這個經營所以集合式定期要去追蹤改善這個進度沒有關係時間的關係我很快把我希望給你們有機會respond的問題直接跟你們講 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
866.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
881.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
接下來的事情我就不管了2018年評估要退場,這是2018年嘛評估的話現在應該還在評估啦那以現在股價的狀況,我看也是很難退場了啦現在還有要退場嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
884.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
909.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
跟委員報告當時我在評估的時候他是兩塊多現在到三塊多一度到四塊但我們了解因為去年開始他轉虧為盈所以我的想法如果往下等待當時我們也找過運公司來問如果他有機會再往上走一點那越晚賣我反而虧的少一點越早賣我虧的比較大那目前看起來以他轉虧為盈的狀態來看的話我們還會再等待一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
912.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
924.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
不知道現在在我們投資的爐心公司有董事的爐心公司現在在中國那邊的實際負責人是誰中國的酒地東澳 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
927.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
952.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
實際負責人是誰實際負責人我並不清楚但是在台灣的話那這樣子我提醒你我們董事會目前是我們是是是對啦但是從過去的教訓是由中信金空來目前託管從過去的教訓你應該知道嘛胡搞瞎搞全部在中國那邊胡搞瞎搞都在中國那邊你們也知道那裡出來的財報 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
955.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
982.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
數字對不對都要出現一個巨大的問號因為這個案子為什麼被大家併購表面上好像是如心去併酒地實際上根本是反向併購你根本就被人家吞了在台北這邊名義上好像總公司在這邊實際上根本不是這麼回事你把整個事情看完了以後你應該會認同我的看法但我現在要請你們回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
983.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1001.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
提醒國發基金的董事提醒一件事情因為在中國那邊的營運活動那才是實質的啦在台灣這邊只有個總部啊在台灣這邊哪裡有什麼生產營運活動沒有啊所以我才問你在中國那邊實際的負責人是誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1003.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1032.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
在中國那邊實際的負責人以我的了解我現在善意的提醒國發基金啊是被台灣法院通緝的通緝犯叫孫楊我有再講一次喔盧星碧案陳士修跑了嘛他跑到美國去嘛下面的財務長法務長一審被判刑了嘛這我都尊重司法程序還有另外一個很可惡的人中國的孫楊 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1035.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1051.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他現在在台灣喔 台灣法院是通緝犯我們國發基金投的盧欽現在在中國那邊實際懇措的人是我們台灣法院的通緝犯叫孫雅 在中國那邊這件事情國發基金有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1052.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1066.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
跟委員報告我們這邊掌握的訊息是之前孫楊是總經理那後來是換成的總經理是James Ian Harrison我們目前的了解是這樣子那中國那一邊的這個運營因為中國那邊有 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1069.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1096.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
有這個他那個組織圖我們憑良心講確實複雜啦大概有20家左右的那個子公司、孫公司然後有的做貿易有的做代工有的做這個然後還有柬埔寨、坦桑尼亞等等的我們確實憑良心講我們要一一了解每一家公司的那個我必須承認我們國發基金的這個同仁在這個部分沒有啊但是我但是你們不是有派董事去嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1097.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1119.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以我這樣講台灣的納稅人對於台灣的納稅人我們國發基金所投入而且當初是因為國發基金投資本市場才那麼多人跟進結果在中國胡搞瞎搞的那個人現在被台灣的法院通緝這是客觀的事實被台灣通緝的人現在在中國繼續run在中國那邊的營運國發基金覺得合適嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1124.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1153.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那第二個問題如果覺得不合適國發基金應不應該去了解我現在還是善意的提醒我們會去查證然後進行我們必要的行動好了時間的關係我最後給你們看一個東西這個聯合再生這個我就不講了一樣外省專家炮聲隆隆這個剛在臨時提案過了你們需要兩個禮拜做說明大家都反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1154.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1168.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
大家都反對然後結果這些委員竟然通過了這個到底發生什麼事我看完資料以後我沒有辦法理解人家跟你講不要投那個有問題那你們還是投了還是投了所以才要把這個到底發生什麼事情要問清楚嘛這個納稅人應該有權利知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1182.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1200.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
為什麼外省專家都說不要投這有問題你們還是投了來看一下產業創新轉型基金第四次投資評估審議委員會依照公司簡報的資料2018年營收現在我還不是在講獲利或虧損單純營收 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1204.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1213.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
單純營收都沒考慮到成本營收2018年是510億2022年是980億來我們看一下實際的營收2018年沒有510億只有131億2022年也更沒有980億才188億你們有沒有看到當初的評估跟實際的數字那個落差有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1232.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1258.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
主委你看了這個落差數字落差這麼大差了好幾倍現在我只有討論營收我還沒有看到成我現在營業成本跟營業費用都還沒有算你會不會覺得這個數字落差的太誇張了那當初這個評估是什麼評估是這些公司欽猜瞎瞎錢騙到就算了嗎因為我看不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1260.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1268.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
2017年決定要投資的時候說2018年營收有510億結果量出來只有131億這差太多了吧的確因為當時是四大會計事務所做的我覺得這個中間應該有需要去查核的地方有需要查核的地方嘛那一樣你們兩個禮拜以後我也不要再做臨時提案你順便回應這個問題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1289.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1307.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
因為我真的是善意給你們機會做回應喔這個是客觀數字上面的差距沒有任何主觀的評價喔我沒有說誰收了什麼錢去做什麼壞事我單純的只是問說當初要來叫我們政府投資營收寫這樣2018要511億2022要980億阿時日計勒慘不能賭慘不能賭 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1317.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1342.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
就是因為這個樣子所以我們如果看實際的累積虧損國發基金投資以前已經虧損上百億國發基金投資以後又虧損上百億我看2024年第三季已經光第三季就虧了19億了你們現在2024年全年的財報拿到沒有因為在你們所給我們的資料裡面資料沒有你們2024年全年的財報拿到沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1348.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1367.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
連智庫都還沒拿到嗎智捷的智捷的部分拿到沒有智捷的部分我們手邊應該是有但是因為會計師查核那個還沒有沒有關係你強調智捷就智捷嘛你在資本市場上面講智捷所有投資人都聽得懂他智捷出來虧多少虧21.45億虧21.45億嘛因為所有納稅人會看 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1376.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1404.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們在投以前就虧這麼多了結果要國發基金投資的報告裡面我不要講說從頭到尾都在偽荷蘭這樣講話太難聽了話大餅但的確是不切實際的大餅營收落差這麼多虧損就變這樣這都是客觀的數字這沒有主觀的評價現在我們只是在思考說我們的mechanism到底出了什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1407.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1433.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
當然投資沒有穩算所以會有Forecast會有評估嘛但是當我看到評估資料又是這麼負面的時候我們還是決定要投了作為一個立法委員我只有個最根本的問題是Why為什麼主委您可以理解嗎我可以理解OK我可以理解再來那個張斌工業區的今天你也有提報告嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1434.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1458.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
你既然有提報告我相信來龍去脈你很清楚我也都講過了我就不要再複述節省大家的時間但我現在要問的問題是什麼來來來你看一下右下角說因為價金是2.62億所以不用提董事會但不對啊契約總價金是4億2600多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1461.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1485.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我真的看了這個會議記錄我看了眼睛在冒金星他白紙黑字上面就講契約總價金是4.26億超過3億董事長可以合決的權限為什麼國發基金的董事還是同意不用經過董事會董事長就可以決了這個投資案是沒有過董事會的是董事長自己就批了 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1486.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1509.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
但是我本來以為國發基金的董事被蒙蔽但後來一查他那個投資案是4.26億契約價金嘛超過3億嘛結果竟然沒有提董事會董事長自己就決定了然後我們國發基金決議的情況是說本基金董事代表會中提問並經公司回覆洽息就這樣喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1514.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1535.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個是分兩件事第一個當時是用2.63億來報那因為他認為成交金額是2.63億那我們當時做了一件事情第一個事情我們是要求我們同仁道董事會提出要求降低以後就是說我們不希望這種金額會被帶過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1539.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1560.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那後來呢這個當時在董事會並沒有通過我們希望把它降低這個不能用3億那後來我們又提一個就是重大決策需要提董事會那這次因為我們也一樣利用這個機會在大清盤以後呢這裡的確是有一個可以被質疑的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1561.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1575.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以我們這一點也會找律師再去看過一遍那看看我們這邊能夠如果該採取任何行動我們會行動OK喔不是啊因為這個你問律師啦你看這個價錢是4.26億嘛對你不能只算現金啊對 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1580.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1601.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
你怎麼可以只算現金呢他加薪就4.26億啊不管3億是不是大概高就超過3億啦這個董事長也同意要去處理來來來然後特別股的狀況這個就是我剛剛最後跟你們講的說我在2023年的時候揭發這件事情經濟部發聲明罵我說已經買回60股份說我對公務員潑髒水哇這個指控很嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1609.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1634.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
這個指控很嚴重但沒關係這是經濟部發的聲明我不會找國發基金跟國發會沒有關係我會去找經濟部但重點是什麼重點是該公司所持的其實只有10%這就是我說你們早就知道這是在2022年9月就知道的事本基金意見你有看到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1636.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1639.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
中間那一欄有的你們早就知道是10%對我沒有說錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1644.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1664.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我是不是跟委員報告一下因為特別股的設計它有點複雜雙方出資的比例就是1比9所以他在設計這個的部分的時候股權裡面有表決權的股權沒有表決權的股權所以我說特別股創造有控制的虛偽假象有錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1671.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1700.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
你那60%是假的你10%才是真的我有說錯嗎謝謝委員當時針對這個議案其實基金這邊因為有詢問過經濟部經濟部對於聯合再生這個股權的處理方式他其實最後的結論是免於同意所以那時候基金不是啦所以你們等於是經濟部要你們配合就對了是不是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1700.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1717.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
沒有沒有不是這個意思沒有因為當時是經濟部回經濟部是免於來來來來來再看下一張你有沒有看到我用紅框框起來的字說這個跟經濟部6月24號同意函的內容未符有看到嗎呃有你有看到嗎這裡這裡這個這個這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1729.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1743.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
與MOEA是什麼就是經濟部英文說寫6月24號同意內容未符有看到嗎有他簡報不就有寫了實際有表決權的只有10%經濟部當初的同意還是要他有控制權所以他上面寫說跟經濟部的同意還未符 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1757.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1766.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
為什麼我說你們早知道因為這是你們提供的文件啊上面還有人在上面寫這個字我就很好奇你們知不知道上面這個字是誰寫的我們回去查好不好好然後一樣兩個禮拜之內回覆等一下我會讓你講我講白話文你們早就知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1780.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1806.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
跟經濟部的要求不符甚至有人用手寫在這個簡報上你們可以下去查你們回去的原本這個絕對不是我偽造變造的你們回去查你們的原本因為你們提供給立法院的是銀本吧你們回去查你的原本原本上面是不是有這個字那你們國發會的人上面就在簡報上面寫說這個跟經濟部的要求不符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1807.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1819.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
跟經濟部的要求不符合還是放水讓他過我看不懂啊所以我剛才又問啊說是不是經濟部叫國發會要放水那要不然這個怎麼過的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1825.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1854.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
主委你有看到嗎這個我有看到我也跟委員報告齁我待會可以給你你們應該有帶嗎我們我有要求他們在下次董事會齁要求他把這個部分進行改善我們有這個提案齁你們有沒有帶有帶那個沒有主委主委主委主委我等一下就給你看其實我已經交代這件事了我再跟您強調一次喔我知道這不是你任內發生的我也沒有要你背這個鍋 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1855.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1882.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
但我覺得這些事情要查清楚要不然根本亂了套這根本亂了套我看東西看很細的我看東西看很細的我那時候在看到這個簡報上面看到這個文字那代表你們的人早就知道他們的改善方案跟經濟部的要求不符啊但還是過了這就是我的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1884.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1897.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
主委可以嗎這個我來查一下因為我之前不知道這個訊息但是我有注意到他只有甲種特別股跟乙種特別股他只有感染支持所以我2023年就注意到結果我注意到以後開記者會被經濟部痛罵說我 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1902.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1927.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
說我在講假訊息對公務員潑髒水我2023年就注意到了我2023年就揭發這件事結果當初經濟部說我在對公務員潑髒水您到2025年也注意到這件事情我講的都是真的但我現在的問題是什麼當初大家早就知道了我不是說你早就知道了因為我現在搞不清楚這個字是誰寫但可以證明一件事情從這個簡報 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1929.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1957.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
早就自帶有10%而且白紙黑字寫跟經濟部的要求不符主委這需要多久的時間這一樣給我們兩個禮拜好不好一樣嘛就兩個禮拜連今天臨時提案的事項一併書面回覆好嗎好今天我想就先到這裡啦我也不要讓主委太疲乏我再強調一次善意給你們respond的機會在調查報告正式做以前好謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1959.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1960.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
謝謝 |