| IVOD_ID |
15978 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15978 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024060495 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-04T12:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-04T14:47:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:17:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0f6b7fe0a3fe7e7f1984c5e936b9b088d3be8d109af184be42f1d92a45f3338bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-04T13:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：議案協商） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:29:59 - 14:47:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好,謝謝大家,非常非常感謝我們國民黨團、民進黨團、民眾黨團我們江副院長、秘書長,還有各位列席的官員在這裡先介紹一下今天我們列席的幾位重要的官員袁志明主任委員、曾主委,歡迎您杜章副主委,歡迎您經濟部的林次長,歡迎您經濟發展處的宋處長,歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2336.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2356.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
行政組織總處陳副組織長 歡迎您內政部國家公園署綜合計劃組孫組長 歡迎您環境部蘇組長 歡迎您農業部林副署長 歡迎您法務部廖參事 歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2357.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2374.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
各位黨團幹部還有今天特別列席的我們幾位原住民的委員吳委員陳委員高金委員鄭委員那今天我們就原住民保留地禁法補償條例召開協商那今天是我們柯總召所提出來的禁柯總召發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2385.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2409.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
主席、各位委員同仁今天這個協商當然很感謝各位能夠來出人今天的協商那主要就是說五六八已經結束了激情過後大家應該坐下來好好談我們希望朝委員會以後四年時間都是如此因為對立 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2410.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2429.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那立法院應該建立一個遊戲規則出來就是說30年來我在這個地方所有法案預算協商的所有程序一定是委員會審查完畢然後委員會協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2430.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2454.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
委員協商各種黨編都簽名的話那就直接送院會各種黨編沒有簽名的話就交給院長來處理協商所以院長的最主要功能就在這個地方能夠調整來能夠把所有意識爭議全部來處理所以過去30年來我們在這個地方從來就是這樣有優勢規則的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2457.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2476.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那我們這次磨叭裡面有兩個事情大家都知道第一個到底有沒有違憲違憲與否那實體性的問題該要提呼籲的提呼籲該提失憲的提失憲這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2477.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2496.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
另外我比較在意就是說,假如立法院的遊戲規則,從來沒有這樣突然間改變了以後所以我一直很抱歉一直罵韓院長說你必須一時作利了,民意發言也功能因為立法院這些新法68條寫得很清楚嘛,那立法院要哪有功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2497.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2511.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
若是完全改變的話那這立法院非常危險也就是說總統辦出的要為所欲為那真的是危险亂增而且造成國會香港化那今天我們就走過去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2512.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2539.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我們看到民意也在反映那每一個都是民意代表應該請進民意吧所以在我們昨天已經發蔡偉強的請求書拜託韓院長在之前還沒表決以前國防表決以前我們一直也發蔡偉強希望以後朝鮮選手遊戲規則是怎麼樣大家談清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2541.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2557.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
是不是只有三個黨編來參加那顯然過去不是這樣嘛有些預算和法案有些預算是個別選區的問題法案有提案委員有召集委員有相關選區代表委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2558.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2585.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
譬如說這個反老高與韓平都有關係嘛 各地方都有關係所以曹偉強是一個就是說大家能夠讓民主在這裡實現譬如說像柯文哲講的一樣 你們都沒有在談因為假如到議事會議的時候 都是大家在直播在談嘛這是一種溝通 一種協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2587.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2614.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
並不存在所謂要民進黨端的法案去請柯文哲來打個一火這是立法院在主導的事情和民進黨主席是在另外一個地方所以不要把責任推給說民進黨都沒有來談比如說這個不會扣錢的事情從月十五號我們都很清楚了吧所以紅毛黨委員就提出來 院長要 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2615.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2630.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
要答應國會改革那很清楚,院長責任就是行政中立除朝鮮以外就是國會外交所以不會存在院長來主導 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2631.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2651.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
提案也不會存在院長來指揮說各黨有提什麼版本這不會存在的院長高度是有一定的高度所以以這種的看待我先對於我們把很多事情移清我們希望像柯文哲這樣可以一直轉移焦點然後然後好像變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2652.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2666.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們不去按照 責任就變成逆傳就比如說好像 兩黨做拍攝被警察抓到然後說警察你沒有來溝通 沒有來協調變成警察責任 變成警察殺人這邏輯我們也要把它澄清掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2671.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2688.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
從這個角度立場來看我是真的早上有在跟韓院長講韓院長說他會來主持但是這個必須要各黨來談嘛我們來談的時候後來大家談得很清楚說大家不用怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2690.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2713.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個協商只有流程而已講透了以後今天就處理掉嘛不會說故意要拖延嘛本來我是建議說那第四案村里長那個先調開來我們就往第四案走然後專心來協商不管怎麼樣都是今天必須完成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2714.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2731.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以今天這個地方有這個程序我先感謝終於立法院看到了一個正常的立法院接下來我要談就是這個本案的看法我們都知道權益分立原則嘛這是憲法所規定的憲法有三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2733.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2750.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我這條行政院是國家最高行政機關嘛先往六三條兩立法院在一結一三條法律案嘛所以所以一三篇內包括一三篇內在先往八條一三篇內畢竟行政院院會通過有送立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2751.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2776.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
現在我講什麼 什麼時候要送立法院來 年度結束前三個月 所以現在差不多該算要送進來了這是一個國家潛力分立原則 所以並沒有所謂這一串前事由立法委員來主導的否則的話 行政責任無法歸屬 也破壞了生命體制與潛力分立原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2777.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2780.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那我講這個就是說黑話七嘴兩話說 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2782.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2808.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
又來審查議事法案只能用作增加的那我八五四字也講得很清楚權益分立那二六四也講得很清楚那這裡面有四三九一四字請大家看清楚三九三也講得很清楚就是說議事法案總書不變但是移動都不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2809.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2824.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那最清楚的大關是391號四字391號四字講什麼呢所有的我把它講出來假如預算他也講說前面預算有397條等等預算是屬於行政前的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2826.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2855.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你做任何更動的時候要涉及計劃內容的變更與調整導致政策的成敗無所歸屬責任制度難以建立有違行政與立法權的分立為了憲法所不席格所以假如像這樣的一個對於預算增加只能當作一種建議案行政院當然等於牽扯他自己要依憲法的形式 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2856.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2871.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以今天我們這個案子因為條例拿出來以後然後行政院必須要吞下去傷案變六萬當然這個東西我們就值得討論那在這個討論當中等一下會請行政部門、報告主席處、報告總統因為相關的預算在經濟部也有經濟部騙的是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2883.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2901.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
趙雲獎勵,水銀水質保護區趙雲獎勵,他已經有辦法,他已經有辦法處理這個所謂,如果有三條預算,一個是農,一個是園民會的進口補償然後農業部也有獎勵方法,農業部也有獎勵方法,所以我們要平行的看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2902.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2929.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那兩個部門是用辦法來處理現行辦法到底怎麼樣那現在我們要用法去強制的時候那等一下行政部門他自己會講尤其是經濟政策現在經營了一百七年才一百一十三億明年一百二十五他必須承擔很多法定的預算當然這個法定預算當然人數會與外的法定預算這法定預算很多包金包補助等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2930.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2955.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
剩下以後只要變成六萬的時候剩下的只有百分之十那百分之十要做很多事情要長照、嚴重檢疫服務條例、要買土地回來、到處整修等等我想等嚴重委員會及各部會大家談一談、大家冷靜來聽聽所以針對本案我們應該如何處理由待大家朝夕相共同來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2958.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2958.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
紅蘇議長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2969.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2980.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
感謝院長今天召開這個協商其實說實在話我想我們每個人在我們的桌上都有看到立法院黨團協商結論在5月2號其實在紅樓202會議室就已經有召開協商而這個協商如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2988.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3007.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們看到下面所有簽名的委員是各黨團都有簽名共同贊成結論均照委員會審查結果同意不管是鄭天才委員、武力華委員、陳寅委員、張其凱委員我們所有各黨團的委員都在這上面有簽字了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3008.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3027.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那如果說這樣的話我不清楚說今天剛剛民進黨黨團柯總召剛剛一席話又花了13分鐘的時間講這個話其實也都沒有針對今天院長召開協商來去做這個實質的討論我們先這個必須要先釐清因為說實在話柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3028.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3048.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
林剛還是把過去的這些歷史都講了一遍可是我們不知道說您的態度到底是什麼是民進黨團現在要推翻這個結論不支持這個結論還是有這個相關委員的這個意見不一致我想這個民進黨團應該也要很務實的跟國人來說明清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3049.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3053.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
法務部門的意見他也特別我特別去看了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3072.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3091.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
法務部書面報告草案規範原住民保留地禁法補償申請禁法申請範圍以及補償金額調整攸關原住民族權益保障事關主管機關跟大院的權責決定本部競表尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3092.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3108.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
換言之法務部門他就直接他的書面清楚明白在討論三十二頁就已經講了事關主管機關跟大院的權責及決定本部定競表遵守所以換言之立法院當然有權能夠來去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3109.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3110.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
討論：處理：決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3130.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3159.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們再一次釐清上個禮拜五我們就已經確定這個禮拜二的五個討論事項包括國民黨團很負責任的把再生醫療跟再生醫療製劑條例給排在第一案第二案而第三案也是我們所有原住民的委員共同關心關注從2015年爭取一直到現在當初2015年通過之後一直到現在十年內我們希望能夠追求所謂的原民正義所以排在第三案第四案是村里長跟地方民意代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3160.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3186.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
第五案是我們的這個紀律委員會的一個譴責案我們都已經在上禮拜五早上十點半左右就確定今天的議程如果說真的各黨團有任何意見的話當然應該在上禮拜五十點半之後就可以拜託院長再來召集協商但是剛剛柯總召自己也講了是什麼時候民進黨團才送出拜託院長協商是在禮拜一昨天才送出協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3187.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3202.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以換言之從禮拜五的十點半禮拜六禮拜天一直到禮拜一才送出協商然後跟我們講是說很追求程序正義我想明眼人大家都看得出來所以最終我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3204.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3218.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們尊重經濟委員會跟內政委員會聯席委員會的審查我們尊重出席五月二號禮拜四朝野協商所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3218.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3238.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
出席代表簽名的 包括吳立華委員 陳寅委員 鄭天才委員 高金樹美委員以及下面所有各黨團的委員代表 共同簽字的協商那我們希望大家共同來支持 讓今天的協商能夠順利通過 謝謝接下來我們請民眾黨黃總召請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3246.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3269.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
謝謝院長針對我們今天協商討論的主題有關於原住民保留地禁法補償的條例針對這個條例台灣民眾黨的黨團我們其實並沒有提案但我們看到本院不分黨派的原住民的委員他們有相關的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3270.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3288.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
當初高金素美委員他提的是從每公頃到五萬塊那民主進步黨的吳立華委員跟陳寅委員他們也都個別在他們民進黨委員的支持下提出來的條文是到六萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3290.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3305.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們現在最後在內政跟經濟聯席審理完了以後在5月2號我們看到了黨團協商的結論那個結論是大家都同意就是由美工請6萬元來當作補償的基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3308.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3326.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
當然在這個過程當中也很感謝高金素美委員他其實有不厭其煩的來解釋他們這樣子調高基本上面的正當性的基礎跟計算的基準所以我們本來以為這個是一個跨黨派 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3327.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3343.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
各個不同的委員他們基於因為如果原住民的保留地沒有辦法進行任何的種植的話那屬於一種特別的犧牲那這種特別的犧牲國家予以補償本來就是在憲法上面的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3345.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3365.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
補償的金額到底要到哪裡這件事情我們有一些其他的reference來可以當作參照所以我們在理解這整個案子的時候我們黨團也對於最後這個黨團協商的結論我們予以支持所以在上面我們通通都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3366.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3366.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
立法院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3386.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3403.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
上上上屆國會吧2012到2016的那屆國會的時候我現在看到的是簡東明等48位委員擬去的原住民保留地進法補償及照領回饋條例的草案那當初要怎麼補償這件事情也是由立法部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3404.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3428.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
他們所提出來條例上面的修正在我們這屆國會的時候在整個討論審議的過程當中也沒有看到我們的行政部門有提出什麼強烈反對的建議包括那天黨團協商的時候就我們所看到的會議紀錄大概是這個樣子的所以我想前面委員會討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3430.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3453.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那在委員會的黨團協商大家也都簽字了所以高進樹的委員也很負責的有來跟我們解釋為什麼有需要與調整以及調整基準的考慮所以這個是我們黨團現在目前的看法以上謝謝黃國昌總召你發問以後就請我們再請民進黨柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3460.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3485.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
第一個齁,我一定要再次講一次政府有多於預算能夠照顧原住民來自於弱勢,包括噪音補助,我們都100%贊成等一下,你先跟我講,不過我也知道沒有,因為沒有關係,我也了解原住民委員巴黎有我講完就好,我講完沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3487.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3514.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我會給你額度啦,這樣可以嗎?高委員是原住民委員嘛陳奕英也是嘛,有立法院都是嘛他們當然對於選區就特別了解所以他希望多爭取預算我們都了解但是我現在把事實誠信啦剛才不管黃孟雅和黃國昌講話都講一半而且我非常訝異他們會怎麼講這些話這各位都在立法院裡面這麼久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3514.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3536.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
第一個委員會協商所有討論黨團都簽了委員會協商是這樣一般委員會討論以後出委委員會有委員會招委主席商招委主席商說假如大家都沒有意見最後黨邊都會簽名那直接就三讀了當然沒有完成這個程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3537.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3557.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們三長都沒有簽嘛在立法院這麼久王國昌你還不知道每次都是你跑掉的時候我們就拜託再回來協商甚至到院長這邊也是一樣什麼叫你以為你以為大家然後你認為都是已經超越黨團都簽名我們三長都沒有簽 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3558.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3577.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這是立完遊戲規則很清楚嘛不要這樣子講話到這裡已經是直播的時候還在講這種話第二個所謂法務部的意見他說總統出席總統區議官以及大院嘛總統現在是誰總統現在是人民會員因為當然他在那個情況底下他也要 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3579.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3599.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
主管級官當然最後是行政院嘛行政是一體的不是行政院有院會所以有一體的這個本案是沒有行政院案喔所以委員排這個東西當然是把閉住聯盟會主管級官當然表示尊重但是呢真正的主管級官是行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3600.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3616.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
於是大約﹖所以兩任必須要好好談當然沒有說所謂的﹖從文貴來講是講得非常清楚明白的不要再去曲解至於坦白講我是上禮拜五就發言因為上28號 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3619.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3627.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
28號 請大家春午以後平靜5月30號上禮拜五就發寫章給韓院長昨天再補發一章我希望韓院長能有善意的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3636.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3657.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那當然還原諒說他昨天有令委員行程這我能夠體會但是因為他早上才跟我講嘛所以請黃國昌以及副委員你們注意聽有關於超外線的遊戲規則在這個以前還沒表決以前一開始我們一直講這個事情講了多少次遊戲規則先要信定定 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3658.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3678.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
包括什麼包括所所謂的三檔我都講說今天是跟原住民有關的原住民委員是不是應該來是應該來嘛 對不對這個是我們一直在講的嘛怎麼會只要我們包括和選區有關係包括提案委員包括召委都應該來過去都是如此嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3679.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3700.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
反正你難道忘記嗎?前三基礎建設預算的時候因為國民黨整個一路阻擾嘛造成委員會沒有辦法發言嘛所以到上了院會來協商嘛院會協商的時候當初的院長是誰?是蘇嘉潛啊而且還院長還在特別的就是說好安排一個總統給民眾黨把所有部委來 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3704.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3711.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
到這個朝野鄉長,我們都退了把朝野鄉變成委員會執行,我們也忍受啊你亂來一個鐘頭,國民黨兩個鐘頭,再來亂罵,我們也沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3716.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3739.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
去講話 因為就就特別的把曹小強變成委員會話當初我們是非常有意見但是為了能夠遇事和解 能夠大家能夠好好談我們也是忍受的所以並不存在所謂說委員會協商大家簽名委員會沒有黨編簽名 這個大家都知道什麼時候黨編沒有簽名就算數了所以韓國昌 彭文凱 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3743.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3759.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
吳棠真的眼睛縮小這不好讓協商當初很坦然的來講然後起偏斷雞尖滑然後用這樣猛黑這是不對的我們沒有辦法這樣接受等一下吳世耀委員有一段話請他講一下接下來請吳世耀委員請派言 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3760.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3774.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
謝謝院長,我很快速的來報告一下對於這個案子我想幾個面向,其實我手上拿的也是我們當天委員會審查的這個報告那剛剛洪茂凱委員他所為大家來念誦的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3775.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3779.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
法務部的意見但這個案子其實主管機關當然是園民會啦園民會當天的會議它的這個綜整的結語是什麼呢園民會說的是有關各委員所提增加預算的部分涉及國家整體預算政策規劃建議待新內閣審慎評估再通盤考量這是剛剛剛剛洪孟愷委員他念的這一份但是我是 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3802.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3817.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
主管部會、原民會的立場都希望能夠做得到的話預算能夠協調的話努力來照顧原住民是我們共同的方向但是呢這整體預算的規模而且增加的預算甚高所以建議是新內閣來然後來審慎的評估、通盤考量所以這就是為什麼民進黨團在委員會審查之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3824.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3826.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
﹚立法院黨團協商．事由．議案協商．事由．議案協商．事由．議案協商．事由．議案協商． |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3845.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3845.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
委員會總預算的40%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3872.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3884.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那如果再加上原民會的法定支出 法定支出再加上禁法的補償的話 那總共的金額會來到佔整個原民會的89% |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3887.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3912.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
換言之如果通過了三萬到六萬明年原民會只剩下百分之十一的預算可以去做其他照顧援助民族的工作不管是道路的、交通的、衛生的、文化的尤其教育的所以這些東西都要去衡量說它可能造成的其他預算的排擠所以這個需要很橫貧的去面對另外在部會之間譬如說農業部的照領獎勵的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3916.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3939.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
現行是三萬一公頃那經濟部的植樹保齡獎勵金他的金額是二到四萬一公頃所以都沒有超過大概四萬是一個比較合理的這個range所以今天原民這個對於原住民族的進法補償如果要高到六萬的話那可能在部會的橫評上可能這會牽一髮而動全身 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3941.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3941.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3958.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3985.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
財政紀律法是2019年修正的那財政紀律定定的新的立法所以財政紀律法第五條第七條都寫得很清楚如果立法委員不只立法委員政府機關要增加新的預算那他必須去籌措出新的可行的裁員在哪裡我自己非常感同身受我在爭取文化部文化基本法授權的文化這個我們的這個文化基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3986.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3986.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
文化發展基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4009.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4033.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
幾億幾億開始來做所以這是一個我們自己要依法來財政紀律法也是一個我想財主單位一定會去捍衛這樣一個法律的精神更不要說憲法70條拉大法官釋字這個相關的規範所以總的回來我們是希望如果等一下讓部會來說明如果預算有空間增加來卓與的提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4033.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4033.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
委員．議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4058.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4070.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
換言之60萬的原住民族的朋友他其他的需要的服務性的工作發展性的工作職業創業教育文化的支持工作只能夠剩下11%的預算的話我覺得這原民會應該也很頭痛所以橫憑的說怎麼樣去喬出一個合理做得到的這個補償提升我想是我們共同面對的課題好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4081.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4105.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
市長我們先聽一下行政單位講完再發言好嗎我們可以交錯麻煩請原住民曾主委你是最重要的大掌櫃你一定要表達意見好不好具體一點謝謝好 院長還有各位委員我想維護國土保安還有氣候變遷的這個來照顧受限制的原住民這本來就是延民會的天職那因為延民會明年的預算大概是125億左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4108.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4108.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4123.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4123.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4153.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4153.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
主席請表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4157.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4182.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
主席 各位委員 主計總處在這邊說明就是我們是整個政府財政帳推估那園民會他在114年的額度是125億所以相較於113年度大概是增加15億但是如果這個案子從3萬條到6萬那就會增加20幾億的這個數字所以他相對就會吃掉他增加而且還會 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4183.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4183.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4200.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4203.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
主席發言其他列席的行政單位有沒有寶貴意見要補充的不用客氣經濟部長者好經濟部的次長林次長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4226.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4243.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
主席,各位委員,我想經濟部這邊來補充一下因為剛剛有提到經濟部這邊涉及到原住民保留地的部分主要是我們的自來水法規範底下的自來水的水質水量保護區那自來水水質水量保護區它是收取那個煤鍍水的 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4244.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4246.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
還有沒有其他行政單位要補充的?沒有,我們請莊瑞雄委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4274.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4282.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
謝謝院長還有我們各黨團聯席的行政官員大家好我想這個案子是這樣對我特別有感 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4284.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4308.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這個案子是從3萬你現在要調不是無中生有也就是說本來這個禁法的一個補償行政部門就已經在做那你如果調高到6萬的話我剛也聽了曾主委你的講法就是說對於你整個預算來看的話就是說你這個部分所增加出來的你到最後變成在114年度你就變成佔了41% |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4311.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4331.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個就不能開玩笑了而且你這個一增加以後就是每一年這跟經濟部這跟農委會那種一次性的又不一樣二十年一次性再來就沒有了那不一樣我為什麼說我特別有感就我那邊有六個原民鄉我那個地方特別我還有墾丁國家公園 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4332.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4338.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那剛黃國昌委員所提到的部分我就特別有一點感觸了就是說譬如說他強調特別犧牲我們一般在講特別犧牲的就是說你這個所有權人的財產或者譬如說土地好了或者一般我們都會也好各地方都會碰到你說基層巷道那你只要說被人家走一直走走到就會形成一定的要件以後嘿!很抱歉你這個特別犧牲怎麼辦政府怎麼去做補償 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4361.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4387.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
現在說實在話我們園民會還算很負責任擔負起這樣的一個責任現在是三萬塊嘛那不然很多基層巷道如果按照大法官會議的解釋政府你應該去籌措裁員沒錢啊院長幹過市長也很清楚啊不是以前的高雄市每一條基層巷都你都有辦法去把它做一個徵收啊這是第一個那第二個就是說我那個地方又有墾丁國家公園你說列為保護區的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4388.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4402.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
你的隆基 你的建壁 一定都是比別人還要少對不對 這大家都知道的那所以說為什麼特別犧牲特別犧牲 如果照你這樣講的話我這整個墾丁國家公園或是說整個保護嶺的地方那全部都是特別犧牲啊所以 大家都去發明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4406.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4418.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
有念過書的人開始去發明了就看看這個委員社會的容忍義務你的高不高你這個地方是保護林這個地質比較敏感你要負擔的社會義務就比較高沒有超過容忍的限度所以我就特別有感就是說國家公園的 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4426.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4438.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那在我們這整個原民區的地方你說這一些你去禁法那該不該補償我就認為這個就屬於特別犧牲已經超越社會的忍耐的一個程度了所以政府來補償它是應該的那所以本案要討論的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4442.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4461.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
曾主委他剛提到一點他不好意思講出來我就幫你講出來啦他應該講的就是說我行政跟立法院他不好意思來跟立法院對抗啊但是行政確實我一年編的預算就是這樣子啊然後我的施政計畫是這樣子啊你立法院你們誰把我做調整了以後那政治責任誰來擔負 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4462.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4467.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個其實就是在我們大法官會議解釋在391號裡面所講的啦所講的就是說哪怕你只是在項目之間去把它做移動啊他都認為喔這個就跟憲法上所指的增加的提議是一樣的你這個到最後你這個整個政治責任難以確認施政承辦沒有辦法來負責所以本案是三萬本來就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4488.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4496.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
你現在是要調高到六萬是多少才合理那現在鄭主委跟你講說我就真的沒辦法啊我就變四十一趴啊這樣我怎麼做你像原民會裡面啊那麼多原民將裡面其實原民會對整個我們原住民的一個朋友啊經濟弱勢那個原住民的一個建構跟修繕那個住宅的計畫他也必須要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4514.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4518.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
補助啊然後部落的特色那個特色道路的部分我們也都在爭取啊排擠的問題啦排擠的問題啦所以是不是會到6萬我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4527.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4528.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4551.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4566.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
在場幾位高級委員、盧委員、吳委員都測過他的支持他在競選政見的時候提到什麼他要擴大屏東縣競法補償的範圍2014年的時候我們競法補償是2016年立法通過當年期約要實施有4萬位原住民受惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4567.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4567.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4588.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4615.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
處的處長是誰?就是現在的主委曾志勇我是後當副縣長所以我們對於原住民保留地的建法補償是非常的支持所以呢我們對後來中央能夠立法來推動我們也是非常的欣慰但是我還是要強調的我們認為呢在本次的修法當中有一個地方要提醒各位來注意一點就是我們在這個法條的最後一項它裡面提到說每兩年調整一次由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關發布的最近一次消費者物價指數來調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4617.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4639.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這個是屬於我們立法的權限因為立法權它是一個重複性普遍性的適用原則所以它跟預算也能不同在這裡當年訂定的時候有訂定金額也是在2016年是由立法權跟行政權都在由國民黨執政情況所通過的但是我們必須提醒的現在我們去調整這個法律的金額從3萬到6萬不管調回幾萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4642.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4650.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
他其實上已經實質上是屬於預算權的一個部分依照大法官釋字C9號解釋立法院決議逾越憲法所定之權責者僅為建議性質我們不希望這個立法這麼辛苦得來不易得到朝野共識的一個立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4658.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4676.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
到頭來被認為只是一個建議性質而需要它具有約束力所以在這裡具體建議朝野思考一個方式就本條文的後項就是屬於兩年一次的誤條這是屬於立法權的權責我們予以支持但是至於金額多少你從3萬到4萬還是到5萬還是6萬這事實上是行政權在預算編列的時候它要去衡量衡酌去考量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4683.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4699.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那麼根據包括我們是自第264號的一個決議其實立法院在審議預算之外所做的決議比如說在民國94年調整公教人員年終獎金增發半個月要編入追加預算大法也跟你說不好意思你們這個違憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4700.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4730.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所以我是希望說我們是不是請責成 請院長組織責成行政院 園民會就進法補償在全國範圍內實施他的金額可以提到多少由行政院提出來由議法院來寫入這樣的條文當中因為我非常支持這個條文尤其是後半段關於每兩年一次物條規定在於關關主義總署都知道我們立法院所訂的各種攸關於民眾的受益權的部分都有訂定一個物條的規定那這個我是支持的 以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4730.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4739.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
阿兵委員等一下請列席原住民委員每一個人簡短二要說一下畢竟是你們最憂奇相關請高經委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4744.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4772.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
謝謝院長此時此刻的心情還有場景我要回復到八年前也是一樣的場景我心裡面非常的心痛所以今天我有幾點要說明的第一點就是104年《禁法補償條例》三度通過的時候也沒有所謂的行政院版本都是原住民的立法委員的版本所以這八年來所發放的禁法補償金難道是違法發放嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4774.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4797.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這是第一個 第二個 民進黨在這八年當中不管是在他們的業務報告 或者到原住民的地方都說非常謝謝民進黨政府的德政 讓原住民的進法補償在這八年來當中政府有編列預算那今天非常多的族人在電視機前面看我們的朝野協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4798.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4798.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
內政委員會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4814.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4829.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
包括經濟委員會的委員在我們的委員會裡面大家都同意支持原住民族的土地正義尤其原住民的進法補償是憲法保障原住民的私有地 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4830.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4858.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
因為政府的政策而被限制不能夠有其他的利用的時候政府應該是要給補償的以前都沒有補償一直到104年這個法案通過了之後才開始補償那今天為什麼會希望提高他的金額第一點是因為物價指數升高了第二點呢我們是依照林務局 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4860.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4876.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
林務局即將通過的獎勵輔導照領辦法的修正草案林務局的這個草案是說第二年到第六年每年每工請六萬塊所以我們不是無地放矢 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4877.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4879.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
5月2號朝野協商的時候,大家手上都有資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4897.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4897.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
陳婉嫻議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4917.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4936.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
東溪這個補簽的案子給陳穎委員簽了這是事實然後在5月2號我也非常感謝國民黨團三長民眾黨團三長都同意支持原住民的土地轉型正義然後在5月3號的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4937.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4960.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
大院裏面我拿了這個這個朝野協商的結論去給柯總召簽柯總召當時馬上就回我一句話說你的這個條例我很清楚花政府太多錢了我都不會簽那時候柯總召跟我回了這麼一句話我心裏很冷 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4961.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4987.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我先講完嘛好不好然後我心裡面很難過我覺得包括民進黨的立委都同意為什麼柯總召不簽然後因此一直到今天6月4號這麼長的時間我也不斷的透過媒體透過我的臉書也讓柯總召能夠理解原住民的土地法案然後民進黨的兩位委員也都跟部落承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4988.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4991.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
立法院執權行使法 只要過了一個月的冷凍期 就可以在立法院表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5009.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5034.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我的經驗也看到民進黨團也好國民黨團也好執政的時候大家都是這麼做的所以因此我才會請國民黨團的孟凱是不是已經過了一個月的冷凍期我們可以如果一直在等柯總召簽字我們不知道等到何年何月那既然柯總召不簽字他已經過了一個月的冷凍期當然就可以表決啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5035.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5053.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
所以今天我們才會在上個禮拜五的時候請國民黨黨團能夠在討論案裡面把原住民的進法補償能夠排在今天的第三案來表決但是我非常的遺憾就是今天要表決了民進黨黨團還會有意見而且還虧黃國昌這個總召說他不懂得立法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5060.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5086.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
一個月就可以表決有多少的案子是如此再來民進黨談說一定要行政院版本才有預算我在立法院這22年來我從來都沒有看過這麼荒謬的說法法案本來立法委員就可以自提啊不管立法院自提法案或者是行政院提案的法案只要立法院三讀通過行政院就必須要依法行政依法編入預算然後我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5087.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5117.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
沒有行政院版本的黨場條例是不是在立法院三度通過了現在在執行了還再看一下今天的第四案地方民意補助費修正案也沒有行政院版本這也是要非常多的預算為什麼今天就可以再來促轉條例有沒有行政院版本也沒有行政院版本依然在立法院裡面通過了不是嗎所以我真的非常期望今天院長您在這邊主持公道 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5118.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5119.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5139.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5160.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我記得吳立華委員在執行行政院院長的時候陳建仁還有主席總長的時候行政院院長就說只要立法院三讀通過的時候他們一定會去找裁員啊然後主席總書也講啊總長也講啊只要是立法院通過的他一定會會去找預算啊為什麼今天會說我們今天通過了這個條例增加了25億然後就會去這個這個吃掉排擠掉園民會的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5168.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5168.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5198.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5202.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
麻煩請吳立華委員請發言你不是登記了嗎?你剛舉手了 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5210.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5228.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我其實一路爭取進法補償金提高都很順利是到最近幾十天才不順利但是我很高興我們終於有機會坐在這邊協商我相信這才是符合立法院民主的程序那我就溯源 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5229.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5257.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
其實因為這個案子我三年前就開始質詢那我溯源的結果就是1996年赫博颱風之後我們的政府開始有所謂的土石流這個名稱所以開始做國土保安於是實施全民造林但是執行不當我們發現很多人砍大樹種小樹所以呢曾經一度全民造林有停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5258.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5278.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
可是在這個當中當時叫做地球公民協會還不是基金會還有一些立委像田秋瑾等等他們就開始倡議護齡禁法那在這個同時終於2001年第一個禁法補償條例版本是曾華德立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5280.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5307.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
2006年剛才鍾嘉斌委員提到他當時是副縣長曹啟榮縣長一上任就用現款自己在屏東縣政府做競法補償那一直到2015年簡東銘委員領銜的競法補償條例版本終於在立法院三讀通過那當時蔡英文總統已經當選所以我要說的是我們因應剛才高金委員講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5309.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5329.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我們面臨探匯探權的交易我們面臨照領補償獎勵金的提高所以我們都覺得說進法補償金要調高那我曾經在2021年我質詢一將主委他說只要修法就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5330.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5351.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
後來我兩度質詢陳建仁院長他也都肯定的說修法就可以也請原民會研議要提高到多少最恰當的版本確實主計總長也說只要修法通過就可以來做所以沒有人我一路過程中沒有人去擋這個東西我覺得很順 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5353.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5353.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5373.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5375.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
現在在這個房間你覺得順還是不順?順啊,越來越順啊麻煩請鄭天才委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5394.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5401.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
立法前沒有限制包括預算立法前 立了這個法絕對會包含經費很多 我就講最近101年 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5412.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5437.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
國民黨執政 馬英九執政 花東第七發展條例沒有行政院版本 立法院三讀通過多少錢 四百億 四百億的花東基金 第一個第二個 一百零三年 原住民族教育法 原住民的教育經費本來是百分之一點二 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5439.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5451.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我們103年修法只有連駐明德立委的版本103年我們修法提高為1.9%從1.2提高為教育部總預算的1.9%沒有人說不可以這是立法前 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5463.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5488.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那另外就是剛才原住民現在我們談的原住民保留地進法補償條例一百零四年馬英九執政的最後一年最後一個月最後四個月我們一百零四年十二月在這裡三讀通過沒有行政院版本第一個法律沒有行政院版本沒有行政院版本啊沒有人說不行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5490.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5518.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們就講最近111年我當內政委員會的召委我主持地方民代及村里長的條例村里長的事務費調高為五萬塊沒有行政院版本當時內政部的部長在做報告的時候反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5520.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5548.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
但是朝野認為是需要調高了三讀通過三讀通過所以為什麼今天各黨團只剩下民進黨團不簽字然後依照立法院的執行行使法本來召委協商之後過一個月就可以表決了也歡迎補簽了 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5550.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5550.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
委員長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5577.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5578.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
原保地經濟價值超過122億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5601.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5601.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
陳英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5635.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5636.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5655.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5678.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
國民黨團提案有列入討論的議程那當時呢民進黨團也沒有反對所以特別韓院長有宣告就是我們全體就是無異議通過所以今天呢這個禁法補償的案子才會列進來我們今天才有機會坐在這邊所以我剛剛講韓院長也都一直點頭禁表同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5683.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5712.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
所以我要在這邊特別說明我反對高金委員您在臉書上特別點名我和吳麗華委員說我們兩個反對這個案子也反對說把這個議程列入今天的討論我想這樣子的操作它是不是一個事實那這樣也無助於我們大家來推動這個案子因為畢竟我想替原住民爭取權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5713.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5731.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
大家應該,我們原住民所有的委員其實應該就是合作那我想對這個我們來替這個原住民爭取禁法補償這件事情是沒有錯的那當然我們的立場也是非常的堅定要和原住民族站在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5732.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5748.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
但是呢我想就是說其實當然啦行政院它就是說這個任何一個黨執政那行政院要來這個控管掌控這個所有全國的這個財務那也是沒有錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5749.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5777.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那只是說我相信在過去簡東銘委員的提案當時也沒有行政院的版本但是我相信行政院的這個行政院當時也有充分的溝通協商然後也有精算過那當時或許那樣的金額行政院是沒有問題所以大家就一起無意通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5778.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5804.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那我其實剛剛大家都講了很多也把過去的這個整個脈絡都有提示過了那我比較想要了解的是說就是說到底這樣子盤點之後到底行政院這邊有多少的空間我想要了解這一點因為我們剛剛討論了這麼久都沒有把這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5805.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5827.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
提出來一個比較具體的一個數字那我想因為我們在協商嘛但是我們的提案當然也是有精算過但是我想聽聽行政院的意見到底你們面臨的問題那在盤點之後你們空間到底在哪裡請說出來讓我們了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5829.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5849.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
陳委員6萬塊錢這個你現在保留6萬塊錢這個你保留因為我想聽他們的意見我都沒有講陳委員沒關係你的意思就是說你很支持原住民但也重視行政部門的意見對不對我想聽看到底現在請黃人委員我要講一下好不好謝謝院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5855.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5882.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那各位朝野各位我們的委員大家好今天既然吳立華跟陳寅委員都已經認同禁法補償六萬塊的這樣的議題而且也非常支持當然我們也感謝高薪素美包含我們的鄭天才過去一直提案這樣的議程到現在已經進入到三堵通過了但是朝野希望民進黨不要再擋這個案子而且希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5883.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5895.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
趕快通過 讓族人明年的一一四年的一月一號趕快實施 以上 謝謝我當然很仔細聆聽 所有委員的發言當然我非常了解 你們對於選區的關係應該爭取一算 這是理所當然 也非常尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5908.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5925.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
但是要把事實釐清那我不希望做真正操作各位委員那你們抄襲鄉議以後你把院務委員來找我就叫我簽我說這個要 院長總督抄襲協商我並沒有說要發很多錢說院長總督抄襲協商再談就是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5926.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5947.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我沒有跟你講說要院長主持朝夷賞,所以你這樣嘛,你又去馬上操作政治,沒關係啦,沒關係啦,即便說很多錢要院長來主持朝夷賞,這個也是一個,我不會否認,但是我一直跟你講說這個一定要院長主持朝夷賞嘛,所以你馬上做政治操作,雷之魚屁我都忍受,沒關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5950.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5955.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
沒有,你就把這個,我講話你等一下,你等一下再回答,沒有關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5958.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5981.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
沒有關係啦都沒關係都沒有關係剛才也有點名第一個我希望大家不要做政治操作因為人家臉書去批我我說沒關係啦人家經濟預算我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍耐一下我會忍� |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5983.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6000.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我都在現場剛才吳立法委員把這個立法過程也講了剛才中央衛生委員也講到2006年曹啓紅的事情也講了那我把這個都講清楚好了事實上這個題目在臺灣不是只有2006年曹啓紅現場的時候神戶時期 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6004.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6029.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
整個時期齁整個時期齁宋楚瑜當黨主席神主席的時候就有一些想辦法去做一些一些補償都有一些辦法沒有錯我們從這裡開始談就是說大家對於齁這個事情是不是要來思考一些對原住民的一個補償乃至於招呼這個從這裡開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6031.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6035.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
回頭過來 我講 當初委員你不要忘記 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6037.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6061.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我告訴大家講 當你竟然議完的時候 你們成立原住民問政委員會 對不對我和王拓 他之前過往的 我是總召他幹事長 我們兩個還去參加原住民問政委員會幫你來整齊預算 這個事實你沒忘記吧所以你看到立法院有一張照片 當原住民老人今天七點五十歲的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6062.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6088.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
包括YSB也含有很多原住民委員當初委員把他抬起來在議場裡面通過的時候把他抬起來這是我們一起去爭取的是不是這樣這段歷史你不要忘記回到辦案前的好辦案前是什麼是馬英九執政是通過是什麼這最早是沒有錯二零零一二年中華的開始然後英文歷史弄到什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6090.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6106.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
2015年10月18號是檢通命委員然後之後通過那不是民進黨執政是馬英努執政的時期最後的時候那時候有兩個法案我告訴你有兩個法案不是只有一個法案通過一個叫做嚴正計劃補償當然我們認為這個是違反權力分裂原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6111.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6136.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是呢假如行政部門能不能做得下去他當然會做他認為沒有辦法執行的時候只是當作參考他多少是他的錢益錢益分顏者一定要講清楚這個錢益分顏者就是說預算編列前是在行政院我們沒有辦法去編列預算做預算增加的支出所以2015年12月18號通過的時候那時候也沒有財政紀律法 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6138.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6156.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
現在有沒有有傳證記憶法通過說我說兩個法案包括這一個他什麼時候公告呢是2016年7月1號公告2016年到我們執政了我整天要講另外一個7月1號公告所以2017年的時候臨前院長的時候開始編列一算 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6157.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6174.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
到二五一九年的時候 首頁的時候 賴清德 賴清德總統 廖長青那一張他更照顧 他把這些水銀 水資水銀 保安局全部放開 全部排除給更多的照顧 這是這樣的歷史 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6176.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6176.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
國土計劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6194.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6213.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
國土計畫也是2015年選前的時候通過當初滿意國土計畫是一個很進步性、影響性是沒有錯啦執行起來非常困難所以那時候我在在野黨的時候我都提出很多挑戰包括國民黨、立委都提出很多挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6214.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6229.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那時候有兩個,一個叫做邱榮業,一個叫做田秋瑾他很認真,後來終於通過那時候馬英九政府是怎麼樣,通過2015年通過的時候他設定2019年5月1號開始實施,後來我們接到了520 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6233.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6258.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
蔡英文總統執政了我們接到這兩個球這兩個球要怎麼辦呢當然就是國土計劃法居然來了到施文昌當院長的時候發現說糟糕這國土計劃法一通過七一計劃要廢掉了那各縣市都全部國土計劃都不送來有的把什麼把優良農田來公衛區當然不行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6259.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6287.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以再去延遲三年那現在我們又面對到國有紀律法的問題那國有紀律法現在各縣市又不送來所以當年馬英九到最後的時候通過這兩個法案他知道讓你們民進黨去背這個事情我們今天回頭過來談這個事情的時候所以有關於黃昌委員所謂特別犧牲特別犧牲發生在什麼地方呢就是經濟部嘛你要去造雷你一定有去跟眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6288.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6299.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我再給你補充,並不是,等一下我知道,我把這個總統談完,我們馬上,今天一定會表決我們等一下要講一個終極答案我把這個該講的話先講完再講所以,幾個,我立法講得非常好啊他覺得很順利,我也不順利,他當文武程序的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6315.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6321.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
包括陳議員我也講一樣嘛 也有回憶嘛 但是還是要尊重行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6322.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6346.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
不過大家都在一個憲法法規範裏面在做這個事情比如行政立法之前的分立上面那包括我們黃榮委員講的我們6萬塊是民進黨在擋我們今天不要講政治議員我們講說面對這個問題我都知道因為講出是應當的嘛然後這也是應當的但是不要做政治操作已經抹黑那今天我要談到最後就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6348.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6354.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我面對這個體育的時候,剛才中山兵委員談得很清楚,包括張美琼委員談得很清楚,中山兵以前是國大 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6363.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6389.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
大法院是391嘛你超越在行政院所能做的事情的話的事情會影響他施政的完整性以及整個歸屬都屬於建議性質嘛我們今天可以大家說三萬、五萬、二萬、十萬都可以建議但是行政權在他身上嘛他如果偏內當然是他的潛力嘛所說並無法強制為之啦我只能講這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6391.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6406.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
謝謝柯政銘總召,我建議曾主委,等一下我會敲一個休息時間,讓您在休息時間跟我們的趙偉,黨團的幹部,那高經緯,你簡短二要說明一下。我知道,謝謝,謝謝趙偉,謝謝那個韓院長,因為剛剛那個柯總召也好,陳議員委員, |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6412.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6412.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6428.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6431.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
民進黨沒有把進法補償列入他們今天要表決的議案是事實我只是把這個事實貼在臉書也希望陳寅委員跟吳立華委員趕快去說服柯總召然後第二個我要講八年前柯總召我謝謝你您告訴我說只要田秋瑾委員簽字你就不會有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6452.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6464.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
因此我跟簡東明委員兩個人就每天纏著田秋瑾委員最後田秋瑾委員簽字了因此禁法補償在八年前在立法院就三讀通過照片還在我的臉書上面然後當時一通過了之後民進黨黨團馬上就發了一個新聞稿也就是由我們的一將當時是民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6478.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6493.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
原住民事務部的主任他在新聞上就說這是一個錢坑法案這是事實我也沒有政治操作大家都可以去翻新聞而八年後的今天柯總召你告訴我說因為這個會花政府太多錢那事實上你沒有簽字而那天鄭天才也在我旁邊最後我要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6501.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6523.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
院長今天如果柯總召沒有辦法簽字的話我剛就說了我們立法院的職群行事法超過一個月的冷凍期就可以表決今天民眾黨團也好國民黨團也好我們在這邊都在期待等待院長你最後說服柯總召如果不能夠說服柯總召我們就進去表決吧謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6525.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6534.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我馬上回答,這很關鍵性因為曾主委是行政部門,你現在說修正完他的壓力我先講很簡單的問題,你說我沒有簽字,我等一下就會簽簽的時候我們不同意常常在表決,我不是要贊成員 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6550.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6578.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
簽字是有協商結論的這一定會啦不然我今天來這裡幹什麼不會再演了 不會再今天是不是我弄來的啊我弄來 我已經答應你就是要曹偉強有簽字才能表決我是堅持這個東西啊第一個第二個你聽清楚不要再招你做到低級的操作根本沒有已經就是在這裡就是要沒有結論也要簽字要表決嘛這等一下要表決什麼還要還有什麼你在爭取的是我爭取來這邊要曹偉強第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6579.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6591.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
上禮拜五你聽清楚委員長的案子是什麼是再生惡法以及村里長補助這是我們的案子對不對等一下等一下我們提出來的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6592.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6612.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
當然是我們主張嘛 要通過 如果你就跑下來說沒有進法主張 下一個案子是你們的案子 有進法主張 以及 以及什麼 以及關國維的懲戒 懲戒案 好你 你 我馬上提的 我馬上同意 有沒有跟反對 沒有反對嘛 我在講的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6613.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6631.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
沒有關係走程序但是要朝野鄉要簽字票簽字以往有標的就是如此你現在這個凹這個東西凹的一直很難看根本毫無道理嘛等一下當他簽字不然他怎麼辦簽字以後蘇明智要怎麼樣立場過去我先告訴你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6633.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6651.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
民進黨成立1979年成立以後,到2016年,我們30年間,表決幾萬次,經過超越協商表決幾萬次,我們都輸,但是我們還是福音。今天我們人數少,每一個表決都輸,但是有經過這樣的民主程序,這是我們最在意的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6652.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6681.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
就是如此嘛你到底懂不懂你們都亂講一通我今天來就是讓大家簽字啦簽字重新糾結嘛院長對不起我建議您是不是先把五月三十一號因為您主持先把那一段釐清有利於我們接下來協商不然大家為了五月三十一號這樣都跟武力華被操作所以我們現在就是有點不順五月三十一號就是無意通過啊我們都無意通過啊你們做台信我們無意通過啊只是要炒我協商而已啊這操作真的非常低級啊而且一半啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6682.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6698.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
到底還有沒有主席 都請陳...贊成啊 無異議啊 無異議我要表決沒有 我們就是贊成那案子是無異議啊 還有什麼 還有意見你到底是講什麼話嘛那案子我們完整無異議也沒有表決啊 全黨都差額是一次的啊現在有點 有點凌亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6703.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6719.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我建議曾主委你掌握最後黃金時刻我會喊一個休息十分鐘你跟幾個不同黨的委員協商我感覺你在執行的時候你剛剛的表情告訴我你會有部分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6721.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6723.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我也必須要把剛剛朝野協商很多意見胡說八道的來講清楚阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6740.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6750.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
各自認知我又沒有指明你們兩個嘛你們怎麼會認為我在指授你們胡說八道呢是不是跟金額有關你溝通一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7248.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7254.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
好,各位委員,我們請...各位黨團幹部請坐,我們準備繼續開會各位委員,我嘗試訓練一個我們暫時達成的立法院黨團協商的一個...好,我跟你講這個... |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7268.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7296.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
好 那為了麻煩控制一下時間 謝謝我一定控制時間的院長 我想啊 剛剛大家對這個案子大家的極度的一個關注啦那 剛剛鄭太宰委員講話我又有所感啦 你知道過去怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣十年前如何 八年前如何 我說實在話啦立法院通過任何的法律 如果到最後行政部門他把預算給編列進去了 這個叫追認 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7297.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7300.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
也沒有人提出釋憲他要編的預算這沒有問題就是等同他的願版我們要把他代勞但是我必須要提出來我們2019年4月10號我們整個修訂的財政紀律法裡面你中央政府各級機關或立法委員所提的法律案大幅增加政府稅出或減少稅入者 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7318.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7333.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
第一個 具體指明去彌補資金的一個來源甚至於你各地方政府 例如居然所提的自治法規增加的政府稅出或減少稅入者同樣都是準用那剛剛大家在提在提的就是說本來3萬那今天的案子是6萬高金委員特別提到說那這個不是對原住民族的一個照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7344.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7363.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我接受我接受這個是一個特別犧牲我接受但問題就是說那三萬塊啦好像是提到六萬塊那是容忍的問題社會容忍度到什麼地方的問題那三萬塊的時候大家一直慶祝喔我們為了援助民主我們爭取了多少權利啦那好那我請問那今天變成六萬塊了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7365.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7375.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那如果明年變成十萬塊了呢那後年變成二十萬塊了呢所以我剛特別開宗明義去講到說這個所謂的特別犧牲是說這個社會容忍的義務到什麼地方我特別也指明啊說整個國家公園保護區啊或者說保護林的地方啊隆基跟建壁全部都是限制啊這到底是不是特別犧牲政府說不是現在我們的社會共識也說還不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7392.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7409.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為你那個地方土質比較敏感你還要去做承擔去承受那我要特別再去指明的就是說今天剛好是涉及到原住民委員會裡面他這個我特別在意的就是說你現在把他提撥到41%光這一個部分而且是逐年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7413.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7416.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我們各位偉大的政治家你認為這樣子真的是合理的嗎真的是合理的嗎今天大家談的都是在談情吶都在談理吶沒有人針對這一種對特定族群的這一種補助你說要達到一個公平的對待笨到說我來阻擋你變成社會的一個劍把但是我必須要提出來就是說法律也講在這個地方吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7436.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7463.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我贊同柯總召所講的啦到底有沒有抵觸憲法的部分憲法的規定在這個地方立法跟行政這個分際倒不是用表決啦但是如果說原民會對這個這個金額他有所折衝他都同意了我認為他是事後的罪證這倒也沒有破壞到整個憲法的一個設計是說行政權跟立法權之間的一個衝突啊所以我是認為你的想法好你這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7465.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7465.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我們也不想當壞人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7486.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7490.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我屏東那個地方也有6個原民鄉鎮阿我現在跟你講的是說你會不會有排擠的問題阿我現在跟你講的是不是跟你講說立法院去制定你把它弄成6萬明年弄個10萬20萬大家說不會我們大家講爽了就好反正有選票就好全部都是政治操作啦我也不想當壞人但是我必須要去指明我們2019年財政紀律法是這個要對全國國民負責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7513.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7536.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
大家現在認為說大法官都沒有用的但是四字三九一就跟你講得很清楚啊等一下那個原民會的曾主委你請掌握最後重要的黃金時間好不好你請發言我們大家都想聽聽您的意見你發言之後傅坤吉總召請準備不是等一下院長不好意思因為還有一個更重要的人我們的主席講都沒講好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7541.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7553.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
主席各位委員我想這樣的一個這個預算進來真的會排擠到人民會的這個預算就變成我很多的這個很多的預算就不能做了是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7555.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7557.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
主席,那你來當主席,我就當很累 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7579.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7580.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
有可能讓我們去西川還要去西川 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7601.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7609.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
因為跟主席報告,我想我們也還要再細算一下麻煩請副主席長,麻煩您是最重要的財政言情說 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7612.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7634.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
主席跟各位報告 因為整體政府的財政 它基本上有一些是法律義務有一些已經是專項 像國法 公共健身跟科技所以它基本上是已經有一個框架在那邊 所以對於原民會 我剛剛有跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7635.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7635.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7659.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7659.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7679.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7679.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7704.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7704.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7734.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7746.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
現在就在聽你的意見 有多少的幅度 你們都不講你不講今天就是六萬塊下去表現在在給你機會講這個空間他沒有辦法決定的 我跟你講的話你聽我講一下吧 聽我講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7748.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7752.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所以我覺得謝謝院長因為今天這個協商也是應柯總召要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7775.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7801.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
事實上今天我們這是第二次會第一次的協商會我們就講得很清楚由於規則要清楚我們協商是協商多少時間因為如果說過去蘇家前院長在擔任立法院的會議主持的時候不管是委員會的朝野協商或者院會的朝野協商其中有一次在冷凍期一個月後就可以正式進行表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7802.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7803.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
這個是都已經記錄在案公報的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7806.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7831.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那如果今天要變更為其他的遊戲方式一定要院長召集的話那必須要 各黨必須要統一 這第一個第二個 統一的前提必須是遊戲規則要很清楚不然的話我們永遠的協商明明就是立場完全不同當然一中求同是好事但是完全如果只是各自表述那永遠沒有辦法交集的話那是損耗全民的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7832.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7851.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
而且有這麼多幾百個法案要陸續來推動的話立法院可能有很多的時間都在空轉我們這個先和先續名那對於這個禁法補償的事情我們要再次強調上一次去調整在民國105年也是一樣也是立法院發動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7853.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7879.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
也執行到現在有沒有違憲的問題因為違憲的時候就應該講嘛 對不對你說憲法70條這個預算案不能增加 立法院不能審預算 不能預算案來增加這是法律啊 這個不是預算案大法官事件391條你講得很清楚嘛我們可以刪減行政院的預算嘛你可以要求在他們範圍內去做一個調整嘛這個就是要求他們來做調整更重要一件事情我們還是要強調一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7881.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7910.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
有沒有財政紀律是全民來公斷立法委員都可以表述今天行政院的這幾年來的施政到底有沒有財政紀律的問題民間一度電民眾繳兩塊八他們去搞了一個風電一度五塊八你去買五塊八的電來收兩塊八的錢台電怎麼可能會不倒什麼時候有財政紀律了民進黨政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7911.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7933.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
合適2900多億蓋好 隨時可以啟用不用然後搞了一個風電兩兆多 這個我們的代代子女要怎麼面對這個問題更重要一個事情我要在這裡特別強調 因為我今天實在不想發言 我想大家講好就好了但我們要真的來看一下去年前年 我們竹記長今天演得不錯啊 說沒有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7934.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7949.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
去年我們政府超收3671億前年超收5237億怎麼會沒有一天到晚在超收它足跡什麼時候預估準過了 對不對所以我在這裡要再次強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7951.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7968.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
原住民的事情是臺灣土地最早的主人我們給一份尊重嘛那如果院長真的是因為我們在這裡講一次兩次三次五次六講六輪都沒有用天才我們在講六輪都沒有用因為各自表述 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7969.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7978.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我想民眾看這個直播也看得是很厭煩的,我想我們就訴諸民主的程序來解決好不好,謝謝等一下我講公告講清楚一點,為什麼不能講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7991.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7991.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
范國威先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8009.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8023.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我等了半天他終於發言了他講第一句話是對因為我的要求沒有錯我感謝大家因為那個應該這樣做大家就這樣做但是底下的談話就很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8026.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8046.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
每一個會議要多少時間 要多少次奇怪 蔡偉強過去是這樣 有過一時間了嗎我甚至 剛才有講 甚至播出時間給有國民黨民眾黨再去執行嘛所以應該要講得很清楚才回到各黨同意啊所以這個問題很大今天講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8051.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8058.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
很重要就是說上次因為行政部門同意滿有執政嘛但是硬壓下來嘛所以後來我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8060.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8086.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
就推下去了嘛而且還放寬所以今天這個不管主席長或是人民會主委他們在這裡都很難決定這行政一體了嘛那行政一體來決定說欸這六萬元太少不能兌換也可以這個是行政權的問題啊權力分裂的因素啦這個憲法可以拿來這裡表決的然後也要最後一刻院長我先把曹營陽結論拿出來誰不先再講再講嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8088.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8096.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
好不好那各種幾個發言先寫一個過去也是一樣先寫出來打出來嘛然後要補簽嘛總是要這個程序嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8102.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8104.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我們廣泛討論每個黨兩位 民眾黨一位 國民黨民進黨各兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8125.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8126.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
第3條、第5條維持現行條文,不予修正第6條保留,提報院會表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8140.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8145.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
3.院會進行處理時,廣泛討論,臺灣民眾黨派一位,民進黨派兩位,國民黨團派兩位,輪流交叉發言,順序授權議事處處理,每人發言三分鐘,逐條討論,各黨團均不發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8167.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8181.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
院長你不要忘記我們第一次引述草野鄉的時候有關於動腸電壓的事情 鄉以後沒有簽名後來是拿來我補簽名啊311嘛 但是好像是要3嘛311沒有關係嘛 反正在整個演講都講清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8192.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8200.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那大家要簽名嗎?國會委員同仁麻煩請我修正一下第三條院會進行處理廣泛討論臺灣民眾黨黨團推派一位民進黨黨團推派兩位國民黨黨團推派兩位輪流交叉發言順序請告訴我們最後一個問題每人發言三分鐘,逐條討論時每個黨團派一位代表發言大體是只有兩位?院長你簽簽名嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8222.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8249.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二一主條二二 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8251.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8259.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
謝謝 非常感謝我們行政部門各列席的官員謝謝你們 後面交給我們來處理的謝謝大家 祝福大家午安各黨團幹部簽了字以後我們預計在3點10分左右開會 謝謝 |