| IVOD_ID |
15975 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15975 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
29 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-03T08:30:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-03T12:14:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:43:30 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc572295eeeb93594190a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be4424a2cfe81dd192b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：繼續併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。
（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:30 - 12:14:00 |
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1808 |
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報告委員會出席委員五人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年5月30日星期四上午9時4分至11時58分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃委員郭昌等12人列席委員林委員德福等12人請假委員陳委員俊宇 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1808.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1837.94 |
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列席官員司法院秘書長吳三龍等人主席吳昭吉委員鐘憲報告事項一宣讀上次會議十五決定確定二要請司法院秘書長保護部部長衛生福利部教育部率所屬相關單位列席就鐵窗裡的少年如何提升輔導處遇預防再犯落實社區轉嫌機制促進社會復歸並完備社會安全網進行專題報告並備質詢本次會委員黃國昌等12人提出質詢委員陳俊宇等三人提出書面質詢 |
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1839.12 |
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1848.588 |
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決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢 |
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1863.342 |
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1888.256 |
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那麼其他位及介紹的列席代表請參與名單,我們不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄。那本次議程呢,討論事項繼續併案審查立法院審（函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案等四案。那麼討論事項所列議案呢,前於113年5月23日立法院第11屆第一會期司法法制委員會第25次全體委員會議審查決議。 |
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1891.687 |
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1907.02 |
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報告及詢答完畢令定期繼續審查源於今日繼續併案審查現在進行討論事項先請議事人員宣讀提案條文宣讀後及進行討論那麼如有修正動議請一併宣讀 |
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1913.672 |
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1941.137 |
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洗錢防制法修正草案行政院提案第一條未修正行政院提案第二條續文未修第一款及第二款修正為一、隱匿特定犯罪所得或掩飾其來源二、妨礙或危害國家對於特定犯罪所得之調查發現保全、沒收或追徵第三款未修正增訂第四款四、使用自己之特定犯罪所得與他人進行交易 |
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1942.808 |
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1957.487 |
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民眾黨黨團提案第二條對照行政院提案除第一款隱匿前增定意圖二字第二款具首的防礙修正為阻礙令保全後面修正為或沒收 |
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1958.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1977.658 |
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第三款由行政院提案第三款及第四款合併並將首句末的犯罪所得後面增定者字進行交易後面修正為者亦同其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第三條除第一款條文中以上之行等文字刪除 |
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1978.459 |
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1987.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第二款及第三款修正為二、刑法第121條、第123條、第201條之一第二項、第231條、第233條、第235條第一項第二項、第266條第一項第二項、第268條、第319條之一第二項第三項及該項之未遂犯、第319條之三第四項而犯第一項及其未遂犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2006.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2026.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
第三百十九條之四第三項第三百十九條第三百十九條之二第三百十九條之三第三百四十二條第三百四十四條第一項第三百四十九條第三百五十八條之第三百六十二條之最三懲治懲治走私條例第二條第一項第二項第三條之最 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2028.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2057.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
第六款修正為六商業會計法第七十一條第七十二條之最第七款條文中第四十一條後增訂第一項第九款條文中第四十四條修正為第四十六條第四十五條修正為第四十七條第十一第十款及第十一款條文中的第一項第二項等文字均刪除第十二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2058.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2085.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
條文中的第九條修後面增定第一項第二項第四項等文字。第十三款修正為十三本法第二十一條之罪。增定第十四款至第二十一款為十四組織犯罪防制條例第三條第二項第四項第五項之罪。十五營業秘密法第十三條之一第一項第二項之罪。十六人口販運防治法第三十條第一項第三項。 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2085.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2107.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第三十一條第二項第五項第三十三條之最十七錄出國籍民法第七十三條第七十四條之最十八食品安全衛生管理法第四十九條第一項第二項前段第五項之最十九諸作權法第九十一條第一項第九十一條之一第一項第二項第九十二條之最 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2108.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2127.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
二（總統副總統選舉罷免法第八十八條之一第一項第二項第四項之罪第二十一公職人員選舉罷免法第一百零三條之一第一項第二項第四項之罪其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2128.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2137.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
除第一款條文有其圖形後的以上二字刪除第二款修正為二刑法第121條第一項第123條第201條之一第二項第231條第233條第一項第235條 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2145.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2173.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第二百六十八條第三百三十九條第三百三十九條之二第三百三十九條之三第三百四十二條第三百四十四條第三百四十九條第三百五十八條之第三百六十條之最第六款修正為六商業會計法第七十一條第七十二條之最第九款條文中第四十四條修正為第四十六條第四十五條修正為第四十七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2175.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2204.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第十二款及第十三款修正為十二指控防制法第九條第四項之罪十三主資犯罪防制條例第三條第二項第五項之罪令增訂第十四款至第十八款為十四營業秘密法第十三條之一之罪十五兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十一條第二項第三十九條及第四十條之罪十六人口放育防制法第三十條之 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2205.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2231.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第一項第三十三條之罪十七入出國及移民法第七十三條第七十四條之罪十八食品安全衛生管理法第四十九條第一項第二項前段之罪其餘未修正行政院提案第四條未修正行政院提案第五條除第二項守具修正為辦理融資性租賃提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2235.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2247.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第四項首具前段修正為第二項辦理融資性租賃提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員之範圍第三具條文中的第九條修正為第十二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2248.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2274.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第五項修正為第一項至第三項之金融機構事業或人員所從事之交易。必要時得由法務部會同中央目的事業主管機關指定其達一定金額者應使用現金以外之支付工具。增定第六項為第一項之第三項之金融機構事業或人員違反前項規定者由中央目的事業主管機關處交易金額二倍以下罰還。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2276.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2298.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第七項及第八項由原第六項及第七項條文遞移並將第七項修正為前六項之中央目的事業主管機關認定有疑義者由行政院指定之。第八項首具修正為第四項第五項及前項之指定其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團第11002781號第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2303.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2330.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
除第二項手具修正為辦理融資性租賃之事業虛擬資產服務提供者及第三方支付服務業者。第四項手具前段修正為第二項辦理融資性租賃之事業虛擬資產服務提供者之範圍。第五項修正為第一項金融機構第二項辦理融資性租賃業務事業虛擬資產服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2334.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2358.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
提供者第三方支付服務業者及第三項指定之非金融事業或人員所從事之交易或其他依其業務特性交易形態亦為現金洗錢犯罪利用之事業或人員必要時得由法務部會同中央目的事業主管機關指定達一定金額以上之交易使用現金以外之支付工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2362.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2371.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
條文中的前二項後面的支字刪除其餘未修正委員郭國文等提案第五條對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11002781號 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2376.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2391.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
除第一項增定第18款為18電子支付第19款由原第18款條文第一第二項手具中手具末的業者修正為提供者 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2393.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2411.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第五項首具聚首的第一項金融機構修正為第一項之第三項之事業或人員金融機構第二具條文中依其業務的其字三處修正為一業務。其餘同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11002781號提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2415.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2417.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第11004478號同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11002781號提案第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2428.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2453.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
行政院提案第六條提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務之事業或人員未向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗錢防制服務能量登記或登錄者不得提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務境外設立之提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務之事業或人員非依公司法辦理公司或分公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2455.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2479.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
設立登記並完成洗錢防制服務能量登記或登錄者不得在我國境內提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員辦理前項洗錢防制登記之申請條件程序測銷或廢紙登記虛擬資產上下架之審查機制防止不公正交易機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2479.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2506.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
自有資產與客戶資產分離保管方式資訊系統與安全錢包管理機制及其他應遵循四項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之提供第三方支付服務之事業或人員辦理第一項洗錢防制及服務能量登錄之申請條件程序撤銷或廢紙登錄及其他應遵循四項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2507.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2531.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
違反第一項規定為完成洗錢防制服務能量登記或登錄而提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務或其洗錢防制登記經特銷或廢止服務能量登錄經廢止或失效而仍提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務者處二年以下有期徒刑、居易或科或病科新台幣500萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2533.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2560.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
法人犯前項之罪者處處罰其行為人外對該法人亦可以前項十倍以下之罰金台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11002781號第五條之一前項第二前條第二項融資性租賃之事業虛擬資產服務提供者第三方支付服務業者及線上遊戲或遊戲點數 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2564.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2585.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
業者於營業前應備其一定文件向中央目的事業主管機關進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明之登記。中央目的事業主管機關於收受洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記申請之日期45日內應將申請結果、續名理由以書面回覆申請人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2586.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2600.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
前向所定之一定文件以及辦理洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會商法務部定之境外之融資性租賃之事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2602.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2619.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
虛擬資產服務提供者第三方支付服務業者及線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者非經依公司法辦理登記並向中央目的事業主管機關辦理完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明者不得與我國境內進行廣告業務招攬或營業 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2623.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2644.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
為進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記卻進行廣告業務招攬或營業者處兩年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或病科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金委員郭國文等提案第六條之一虛擬資產平台及交易服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2647.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2672.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
虛擬資產場外交易服務第三方支付服務提供者為向中央主管機關完成洗錢防制防制登記者不得進行虛擬資產與第三方支付服務廣告業務招攬及其他顧問與委託投資業務境外設立之虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務提供者非依公司法辦理公司或分公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2673.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2700.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
設立登記並完成洗錢防制登記者不得在我國境內進行虛擬資產與第三方支付服務廣告業務招攬及擔任投資顧問與委託投資業務前向虛擬資產服務與第三方支付服務提供者應備其一定文件向中央目的事業主管機關進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明之登記中央目的事業主管機關關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2702.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2721.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
收受洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記申請之日起。四十五日內應將申請結果虛名理由以書面回覆申請人。虛擬資產平台及交易服務虛擬資產場外交易服務第三方支付服務提供者 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2721.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2745.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
辦理前項洗錢防制登記之申請條件及其他應遵循事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之違反第一項規定為完成洗錢防制之登記而提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務或其洗錢防制登記經撤銷或廢止而仍提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務者 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2746.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2773.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
處兩年以下有期徒刑具欲或科或併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金違反前項規定之虛擬資產服務提供者中央目的事業主管機關應將其公開為黑名單且金融機構得以暫停或限制違反者帳戶帳號之全部或部分功能或禁與關閉暫停帳戶之作業程序及辦法由主管機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2774.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2792.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
法人犯第四項之罪者主處罰其行為人外對該法人亦可以前項十倍以下罰金台灣民眾黨黨團提案第1104478號提案第五條之一第一項同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第110278號提案第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2803.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2831.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第二項至第八項條文為前項所定之一定文件以及辦理洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記之方式程序及其他應遵循事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會商法務部定之未完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記卻進行廣告或業務招攬第一次被查獲者由中央目的事業主管機關儲新台幣50萬元以上100萬元以下罰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2834.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2862.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
並由中央目的事業主管機關公布名單第二次被查獲者處新台幣一百萬元以上二百五十萬元以下罰還並獻期責令完成第一項之登記第三次以上被查獲者處一年以下有期徒刑局域或科或病科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金未依第一項規定完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記卻營業第一次被查獲者 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2863.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2880.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
由中央目的事業主管機關處新台幣250萬元以上1000萬元以下罰還由中央目的事業主管機關公佈名單並責令完成第一項之登記登記完成前不得營業會議第一項規定進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記卻營業 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2882.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2896.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
第二次被查獲者處兩年以下有期徒刑。據獄或科或病科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金。法人違反前三項規定者,其代表人或負責人亦處各該項所定之裁罰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2898.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2924.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
不同法人但代表人負責人董事經理人實質受益人實質控制人相同或可證明為同一自然忍者亦處第二項至第四項所定之裁罰第三項及第四項所定由中央目的事業主管機關所公布之名單其所應公布之項目方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2926.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2953.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第11004478號第五條之二近外之融資性租賃之事業虛擬資產服務提供者第三方支付服務業者及線上遊戲或遊戲臉書業者非經依公司法辦理登記並向中央目的事業主管機關辦理完成前項所定洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記者 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2953.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2972.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
不得與我國境內進行廣告業務招攬或營業境外之融資性註定事業虛擬資產服務提供者第三方支付服務業者及線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者違反前項規定會議公司法辦理登記或未向中央目的事業主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2974.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3002.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
機關辦理完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明而與我國境內進行廣告業務招攬或營業第一次被查獲者中央目的事業主管機關應公開其名單並令其依前條規定辦理洗錢防制法令遵循聲明經中央目的事業主管機關依前項規定要求辦理洗錢防制法令遵循聲明為完成確認進行廣告業務招攬或營業 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3003.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3013.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第二次以上被查獲者中央目的事業主管機關得釋情節與查獲次數,限制其網頁或網站之瀏覽。 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3014.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3034.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
或要求網際網路平台提供者網際網路應用服務提供者或網際網路接取服務提供者移除相關之網頁資料第二項名單之建制應公開之資料方式及其他應遵循事項之辦法第三項中央目的事業主管機關所 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3037.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3059.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
應視情節查獲之次數限制網頁或網站瀏覽之方式程序移除之方式程序及其他應遵循遵行事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會商保護後定之行政院提案第七條由原第六條條次變更並將第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3064.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3093.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
第四項後段中的一千萬元以下罰還的分號修正為頓號後段的一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下令增定莫具為並得按次處罰第五項條文中的五百萬元以下罰還後面的分號修正為頓號令五十萬元以下修正為二百五十萬元以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3094.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3120.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
令增定默劇為並得按次處罰其餘未修正行政院提案第八條由原第七條條次變更並將第五項手續修正為違反第一項至第三項規定或前項鎖定辦法中有關確認客戶身份留存確認資料加強客戶審查之範圍程序方式之規定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3122.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3131.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
令後段中的一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下。令增訂墨具為並得按次處罰其餘未修正。 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3132.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3158.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第七條之一法務部應建制平台提供金融機構及指定非金融機構事業或人員辦理前條鎖定確認客戶身份程序前項鎖定平台就其應收集之資料範圍查詢及查詢之相關程序方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3159.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3175.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
由保務部會商中央目的事業主管機關及相關機關後定之。於定定前應遵循相關公會之意見。行政院提案第九條由原第十一條條次變更條文未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3177.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3194.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第11條第一項未修正第二項修正為前項所稱洗錢或滋恐高風險國家或地區之定義依國際防治洗錢組織公告定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3196.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3210.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
行政院提案第10條有緣第8條條次變更並將第二項手續中的交易記錄修正為必要交易記錄第三項手續中的交易記錄修正為必要交易記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3213.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3241.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
第四項手具修正為違反第一項第二項規定或前項鎖定辦法中有關留存必要交易記錄之範圍程序方式之規定者後段中的一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下令增訂墨具為並得按次處罰其餘未修正行政院提案第十一條非信託業之受託人 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3242.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3261.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
於信託關係循序中必須取得並持有足夠正確與最新有關信託之委託人、受託人、受益人及任何其他最終有效控制信託之自然人之身份資訊及持有其他信託代理人、信託服務業者及本資訊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3263.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3274.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
前向受託人應就前向信託資訊進行申報並於資訊發生變更時主動更新申報資訊。第一向非信託人之受託人 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3276.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3294.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
第一項非信託業之受託人以非信託業之指定其非金融事業或人員或其他法人為限其受理申報之機關如下依指定之非營業事業或人員擔任受託人者 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3295.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3318.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
為各該業別之主管機關二千款以外之法人擔任受託人者為各該目的事業主管機關受託人自然受託人自信託關係終止時期應保存第一項之資訊至少五年第一項受託人以信託財產於金融機構指定之非金融 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3320.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3343.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
事業或人員建立業務關係或進行達一定金額之臨時性交易時應主動揭露其在信託中之地位第二項之申報更新申報之範圍方式程序前項一定金額之範圍揭露方式或其他應遵行事項之辦法由保護部會商相關機關定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3344.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3363.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
違反第二項第四項第五項或前項所定辦法中有關第二項申報更新申報之範圍方式程序或第五項揭露方式之規定者由第三項受理申報機關處心台幣五萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還並得按次處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3367.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3386.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第十條之一金融機構及指定之非金融事業或人員擔任受託人與辦理信託關係程序中必須取得並持有足夠正確及最新有關信託之委託人受託人收益人 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3387.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3413.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
及任何其他最終有效控制信託之自然人身份資訊以及持有其他信託代理人信託服務業者基本資訊前向受託人在信託終止後應保存資訊至少5年受託人以信託財產與金融機構及指定之非金融事業或人員建立業務關係時應主動揭露其在信託中之地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3414.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3420.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
第一項所定應取得資訊之範圍方式第二項資訊保存之範圍方式程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3421.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3449.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
以及第三項應揭露資資訊範圍程序方式及其他應遵行事項辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會商法務部及相關機關定之於訂定前應徵詢相關公會之意見違反第一項至第三項規定及前項所定辦法者由中央目的事業主管機關限期令其改善藉其未改善者處受託人新台幣五萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3452.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3480.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
行政院提案第十二條由原第九條條次變更除第一項手具一定金額後面的以上二字刪除令第三項後段中的一千萬元以下發還後面的分號修正為頓號一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下令增訂墨具為並得按次處罰其餘未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3481.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3503.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
行政院提案第十三條由原第十條條次變更除第一項條文中第十四條第十五條修正為第十九條第二十條第四項手句修正為前項第七條第三項第八條第四項第十條第三項及前條第三項之辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3504.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3532.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
第五項後段一千萬元以下罰還後面的分號修正為頓號一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下令增定莫具為並得按次處罰其餘未修正行政院提案第十四條由原第十二條條次變更除第一項第一款次第四款條文中的以上二字均刪除令第一款末的現鈔修正為現金 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3535.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3558.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
第四項第二具修正為其超過前項規定金額部分由海關沒入之末具的前段修正為由海關處以相當於其超過前項規定金額部分或第五項第五具修正為其超過第三項規定金額部分由海關沒入之其餘未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3559.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3578.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第十二條第一項至第三項未修正第四項及第五項同行政院提案第十四條第四項及第五項第六項的莫具巨莫的通報修正為申報其餘未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3579.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3602.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
行政院提案第15條海關查獲未依前條第一項或第二項規定申報或申報不實之物應予扣留但該扣留之物為前條第一項第一款之物者其所有人管領人或持有人得向海關申報提供足額之保證金准予撤銷扣留後發還之 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3604.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3616.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第十二條之一除倒數第二句末的保證金修正為單保金外其餘通行政院提案的第十五條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3618.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3637.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
行政院提案第16條海關一第14條第4項後段裁處罰還與處分書送達後為防止受處分人隱匿或移轉財產以逃避執行,得免供擔保向行政法院申請假扣押或假處分,但受處分人已提供相當擔保者不在此限。 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3637.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3653.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
第17條受理第12條、第13條申報及第14條通報之機關。繼於防止洗錢或打擊滋恐目的的就所受理申報、通報之資料予以分析,為辦理分析業務的向相關公務機關或非公務機關調取必要之資料。 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3654.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3677.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
前向受理申報通報之機關就分析結果,任由查緝犯罪、追討犯罪所得、健全洗錢防制、穩定金融秩序及強化國際合作之必要時,得分送國內外相關機關。相關公務機關基於防制洗錢打擊指控目的或依其他法律規定,得向第一項受理申報通報之機關查詢所受理申報通報之相關資料。 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3678.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3687.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
前三項資料與分析結果之種類範圍運用、調取、分送查詢之程序、方式及其他相關事項之辦法由法務部定之。 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3688.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3706.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
行政院提案第18條由限刑法第13條條字變更並將第一項第二句中犯第14條或第15條之罪者修正為犯第19條或第20條之罪者單書前的句號修正為逗號及第五項的首句中的第21條修正為第28條其餘未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3709.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3729.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
行政院提案第19條有第二條各款所列洗錢行為者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣一億元以下罰金及洗錢之財務或財產上利益未達新台幣一億元者處六月以上五月以下有期徒刑並科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金前項之為稅犯罰之 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3732.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3753.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第十四條有第二條各款所列洗錢行為者處六月以上五餘年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金其特定犯罪所得達新台幣一億元以上者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑得並科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金前項之未遂犯罰之 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3756.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3771.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
行政院提案第20條授受持有或使用之財產或財使用之財物或財產上利益有下列情形之一而無合理來源者處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金依冒名 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3772.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3800.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
以假名或其他與身份相關之不實資訊向金融機構提供虛擬資產服務或第三方支付服務之事業或人員申請開立賬戶賬號二（以不證方法取得使用他人向金融機構申請開立之賬戶向提供虛擬資產服務或第三方支付服務之事業或人員申請之賬號三（規避第八條第十條之第十三條鎖定洗錢防制程序請向之未遂範罰之 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3801.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3819.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團提案第15條收受持有或使用之財產財物或財產上財產上利益有下列情形之一等命本人就該財物或財產上利益之來源提出說明無真當理由未為說明無法提出合理說明或說明不實者 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3820.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3834.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑得兵科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金一（財務或財產上利益與本人收受使用或持有期間之收入或支出顯不相當者二（以不正方法取得或使用他人向金融機構申請開立之賬戶向虛擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3838.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3857.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
資產服務提供者或第三方支付機構申請能儲存財務或財產上的異議之賬號三（以冒名假名或其他不實質資訊規避第七條確認客戶身份之程序四（以不合教育常規或其他方式規避第八條留存必要記錄之程序五（以分批 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3858.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3879.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
提存通貨交易或其他方式規避第九條之申報程序。六）以提供不實資訊或其他方式規避第十條之申報程序。犯傾向之罪及收受持有或使用之財物或財產上利益之金額大一億元以上者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以上五千萬元以下之罰金。 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3882.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3903.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
行政院提案第21條由現行法第15條之一條次變更並將第一項的手具後段修正為頓號向提供虛擬資產服務或第三方支付服務之失業或人員申請之賬號其餘未修正。行政院提案第22條由現行法第15條之二條次變更並將第一項的手具中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3905.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3922.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
首句後段修正為燈號向提供虛擬資產服務或第三方支付服務之事業或人員申請之賬號交付及第五項的第二句修正為燈號金融機構提供虛擬資產服務及第三方支付服務之事業或人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3923.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3948.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
第三具中的得修正委應其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團庭第十五條之二第一項至第六項未修正增訂第七項及第八項第七項依第五項規定而予以限制之帳戶如今確認係應錯誤或經調查後經不起訴處分確定未有裁處告解之必要者其帳戶或帳號之管控應予以解除 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3949.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3974.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
錢箱、帳戶、帳號之認定基準解除、告誡、撤銷、暫停、限制功能之認定方式、範圍程序、作業程序等應遵循事項之辦法由法務部會同中央目的事業主管機關定之。第九項由原現行法第七項遞以其餘未修正。行政院提案第23條法人之代表人、代理人、受僱人或其他從業人員應執行業務犯前四條之罪者。 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3976.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3995.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
處處罰行為人外（對該法人並可以十倍以下之罰金（但法人之代表人或自然人對於犯罪之發生（以盡力為防止行為者不在此限。犯第19條至第21條之罪與犯最後自首如有所得或並自動繳交全部所得財務者,減輕或免除其刑。 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3996.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4019.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官得以扣押全部洗錢之財物或財產上利益或查獲其他證犯或共犯者免除其刑。犯前四條之罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白者如有所得或並自動繳交全部所得財務者減輕其刑並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官得以扣押全部洗錢之財產財物或財產上利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4021.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4045.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
或查或其他政犯或共犯者減輕或免除其刑。第十九條、第二十條或第二十一條之罪與中華民國人民在中華民國領域外犯罪者適用之。第十九條之罪不以本法鎖定特定犯罪之行為或結果在中華民國領域內為必要,但該特定犯罪已行為遞之法律,不罰者不在此限。 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4046.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4072.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第16條法人之代表人、代理人、收穫人或其他從業人員應執行業務犯前四條之罪者處處罰行為人外對該法人並可以各該條罪所定二十倍以下之罰金犯前四條之罪與犯罪後自首如自動繳交全部特定犯罪所得者得減金或免除其薪並因而查獲其他偵犯或共犯者免除其薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4073.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4093.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
犯前四條之罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如自動繳交全部特定犯罪所得者減輕其刑並因而查獲其他偵犯或共犯者減輕其刑至二分之一第十四條第十五條或第十五條之一之罪由於中華民國人民在中華民國領域之外犯罪者使用之 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4093.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4121.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
第十四條之罪不以本法所定特定犯罪之行為或結果在中華民國領域內為必要但該特定犯罪依行為地之法律不罰者不在此限行政院提案第二十四條由憲刑法第十七條條字變更並將條文中的第十四條第十五條均修正為第十九條第二十條其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十七條對照憲刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4122.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4147.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
第一項第二項維修正增定第三項第四項申報單位之人員中央目的事業主管機關之人員以及與偵查程序中依法執行職務之人員基於防制洗錢目的而泄露或交付之關於申報疑似犯第十四條第十五條第十五條之一第十六十五條之二之罪嫌疑之文書圖畫消息或物品者等免除簽二項之刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4148.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4175.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
金融機構或指定非金融事業或人員寄予一方洗錢防制目的而泄露或交付之關於第七條第一項及第三項第八條第一項第九條第一項及關於申報疑似犯第十四條第十五條第十五條之一第十五條之二之罪嫌疑之文書圖畫消息或物品不受各自保護法之限制及範圍程序方式及其他相關事業及相關事項之辦法由法務部定之。 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4176.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4194.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
行政院提案第25條由現行法第18條條字變更並將第一項修正為犯第19條第20條之罪洗錢之財物或財產上利益不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之第二項手續修正成犯第19條或第20條之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4196.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4225.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
第三項守據中的第二十一條修正為第二十八條之外其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十八條犯第十四條之罪洗錢所涉之財物或財產上利益不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之犯第十四條或第十五條之罪有事實足以證明行為人所得之配置前項規定以外財物或財產上利益系取自其他違法行為之所得者沒收之第三項未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4227.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4244.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
行政院提案第二十六條由憲刑法第十九條條次變更第一項未修正第二項除了守據中第二十一條修正為第二十八條之外其餘未修正。行政院提案第二十七條由憲刑法第二十條條次變更其餘未修正。 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4245.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4266.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
行政院提案第28條對照現行法第21條第一項未修正第二項對於外國政府機構或國際組織請求我國協助之案件除條約或協定另有規定者外的基於互惠原則提供第12條至第14條受理申報或通報之資料及及調查結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4267.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4290.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
依第一項規定以外之其他條約或協定所交換之資訊的基於互惠原則為防制洗錢或打擊自恐目的之用但依該條約或協定規定禁止或應符合一定要件使得為特定目的外之用者從其規定台灣地區與大陸地區香港及澳門間之洗錢防制準用前三項規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4292.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4317.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
民眾黨黨團提案第二十一條對照現行法第二十一條第一項第二項未修正第三項依第一項規定以外之其他條約或協定所交換之資訊的基於互惠原則為防制洗錢或打擊自恐目的之用但依該條約或協定規定禁止或應符合一定要件使得為特定目的外之用者不在此限 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4317.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4322.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
台灣地區與大陸地區香港及澳門間之洗錢防制準用前三項規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4325.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4349.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
行政院提案第29條為偵辦洗錢犯罪檢察官得以職權或依司法檢察官申請提出控制下交付之偵查計劃書並檢附相關資料報請檢察長核可後核發偵查指揮書前項控制下交付之偵查計劃書應記載下列事項一犯罪嫌疑人或被告之年級資料二 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4349.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4370.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所犯罪名三所涉犯罪事實四使用控制下交付調查犯罪之必要性五洗錢行為太陽標的及數量六偵查犯罪所需其間方法及其他作為七其他必要之事項台灣民眾黨黨團提案第21條之一同行政院提案第29條 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4373.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4380.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
行政院提案第30條、一）第7條、第二項之查核、第7條、第4項、第5項、第8條、第5項、第10條、第4項、第12條、第4項、第13條、第5項之採處及其調查、中央目的實業主管機關得委拜直轄市、縣市政府辦理並由直轄市、縣市政府定期呈報查核成效。第31條本法除第6條及第31 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4398.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4412.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
及第十一條之施行日期由行政院定之外於自公布日施行宣讀完畢。好,提案條文均已宣讀完畢,現在先休息。 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4716.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4742.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好繼續開會在進行討論之前先確認上次會議議事錄好那麼請問各位對於上次會議事錄有無錯或遺漏沒有那麼議事錄確定好現在呢我們繼續併案審查行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案等事案那請教委員有沒有我們要先大體提討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4745.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4773.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我是建議直接進入主條。好。那我們就進行主條審查。那麼來開始。來。坐下來啦。那我們現在進行主條審查。因為本案是全案修正處理有三十個條文。我們先從第一條。那第一條呢。我們是行政院提案啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4776.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4793.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
來我看一下本條並未修正是否我們就照行政院提案通過同意好那接下來第二條呢有行政院提案也有台灣民眾黨黨團提案那這個部分是不是有台灣民眾黨黨團請換委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4796.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4813.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好謝謝主席我想我們的提案其實我們是針對整本修正喔那這個其實是把它講得更清楚那當然願版的部分跟我們的意見是差不多只是我們會把使用自己特定犯罪所得與他人進行交易這個部分他放在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4815.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4837.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
第三項的後面的原因是因為他是收受持有或持有他人特定犯罪者那有點把這個定義放在等同不過按照院版的方法也應該是差不多所以我們沒有特別意見好那麼其他委員目前有院版跟民眾黨團版其實意思是一樣只是在第三款後面接續或者分為第四款 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4839.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4867.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
來 沈委員那我們是不是因為這個意思是一樣啦就是他就是把這個第三款這個跟第四款這邊分裂那我們是不是就尊重院版我們就照院版的這個來好 如果委員同意的話我們就照行政院版行政院提案通過好 現在第三條也是有行政院提案跟民眾黨團提案那麼請問黃委員有沒有要進行說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4870.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4898.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
是現在主席我想我們的版本其實跟院版的部分其實都差內容差不多但是可能會有一些增列或什麼但我們原則上如果委員們沒有意見的話我覺得院版部分我們也可以接受好是那我們第三條就照行政院提案通過接下來第四條本條未修正那我們是不是就照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4899.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4912.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
同意。接下來第五條有行政院提案台灣民眾黨團提案還有郭委員等提案那是不是一樣我們先請台灣民眾黨團說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4918.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4934.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
五條的部分我們主要跟行政院不同的是他目前沒有把第三方支付放在這個系統裡面所以我們認為說這個部分可能會有漏失因為第三方支付業者還是有處理金流還有接受民眾的款項還要跟銀行申請所謂的虛擬賬戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4935.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4955.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
來存放客戶的款項,它的確還是洗房的一個對象,所以我們希望在地方方支付應該還是要放進來。那如果院版沒有的話,我們是不是建議這個部分可以保留,然後到院會再來討論。來,那個請森委員。我們是不是請法務部這邊做一下說明。好,法務部請說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4958.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4977.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
第三方支付的話已經行政院已經把它指定為非金融機構的指定非金融機構在110年已經指定了所以這個就會是在第三項第三項裡面所列的這一個非金融機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4979.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4987.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
對就第三項是屬於那個非金融指定的非金融機構現在已經有法律規範了 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4993.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5014.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
是主席我們的意見是這樣因為他現在就是行政院把這個部分放到訴法部去但是如果有相關的狀況我們希望他是比較適同金融機構來處理否則他會是洗房或者是在整個業務上面可能會有掛一個萬的狀況所以我們還是希望能夠把第三方支付加進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5016.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5023.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
好請那個次長說明這個第三份支付是不是請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5025.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5053.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
哪一位?數位部來說明一下。好。我們速發部是師傅組長。是。主席還有黃委員。大家好。我說明一下第三方支付的部分。第三方支付的部分目前是在110年8月18號的時候是由法務部會同經濟部報請行政院指定它是非金融事業及人員。這個指定是依照洗錢法第五條第四項的規定來指定。然後它指定為是洗錢法第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5054.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5062.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
第三項第五款的一個非金融事業人員那他的洗房的要求呢也是比照金融機構以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5063.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5087.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好那主席在這裡先暫時就一個說明因為我們在場有包括郭國文委員的提案那這裡面我想也就較於我們的行政機關因為在第17款是信託業那18款我們看到郭委員的部分等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5094.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5103.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
對好那麼郭委員的部分在26頁的部分他有一個電子支付頁那因為現在電資已經被金管會認定為金融機構納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5105.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5134.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那是不是說這裡可以考慮吼因為這當然吶因為第18款是說其他經目的事業主管機關指定的金融機構其實電子支付業就已經在第18款當中那但是如果單獨列出來呢也不妨礙到他跟第18款之間的這個相合度啦所以呢在郭委員的版本呢他是有提到這一點吼他特別將電子支付業呢獨立成一個一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5135.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5160.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那這當然也事實上也是包含在原來的其他金目的世界主管機關的金融機構那麼這是一個部分那是不是就這個部分呢法務部或抒發部你們的看法金管會在嗎那麼應該這個部分是童副局長還是黃副局長可以說明來請這個是童副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5163.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5174.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
主席還有各位委員好那稱儒委員剛才所指示的這個部分我們已經在104年就依照第18項的規定指定電子支付機構是洗錢防制法 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5175.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5181.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
議員郭國文等16人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5205.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5231.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我沒有意見那麼請問在場委員那如果這個部分因為這是郭國文委員的版本那當然剛剛有黃委員提出這個部分我們如果還有一些思考的空間那我們可以在這裡先做個討論那麼這是一個部分那另外呢再包括大家所關心的融資性租賃之 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5232.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5244.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
事業還有提供虛擬資產的還有第三方支付的部分那我們看到在目前的國版的部分26OK |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5248.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5273.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那郭板的26頁也有提到說第三方支付那因為這裡他是把它單獨列為一項就是在行政院板當中他除了辦理融資性租賃之事業那麼他這裡加上了及第三方支付提供者那等於是其實上他就不是金融機構但是是屬於非金融機構的 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5275.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5301.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
內同於融資性租賃的事業那他特別的把他跟虛擬資產服務提供者和第三方支付服務提供者呢明白的列出來這也是郭板的一些主張那請問金管會對這個部分的看法如何因為第三方支付目前你們並不是納管為金融機構但是有要求他做一些申報報告委員那個第三方支付是數位部是不是請數位部這邊開始請 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5310.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5338.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
蘇衛部說明就如我剛才說明的因為第三方支付已經納入洗房的洗房法的非金融事業級人員那他的洗房標準跟金融機構其實是一樣的其實原則上所有金融機構比如說他要做KYC內積內控然後可疑交易申報都要比照金融機構去做因為在洗房法裡面有明定那包含相關規定都跟金融機構是幾乎是一樣的以上所以我們認為是我們建議就是採院版就是不需要把第三方支付特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5339.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5363.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
列出來要不然的話未來如果有新型態的一些商業服務出現的話那可能就是每一個都期盼法都要列以上說明好了解那再三委員那這裡也做一個說明因為的確目前的院版他是用其他但是呢其實在這裡面如果把虛擬資產跟第三方支付加上其他都並列的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5363.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5392.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那這裡面就有對於民眾所關心的虛擬資產和第三方支付呢比較有介入的意味而不是只是涵蓋的籠統的放在其他等於說如果只列虛擬資產或第三方支付有掛一落萬少了其他只列其他並沒有彰顯出虛擬資產跟第三方支付那如果把這兩個並列在這裡面呢因此啊這裡面對於鍋板的部分呢本席這邊有試著提出一個修正動議供大家參考就是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5394.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5410.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這樣兩個並列的方式看大家覺得如何在那個修正動議第五條那個部分沒有那個看沒有我是先請在場委員參考如果認為有需要我們再提啦那個黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5411.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5428.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以我請問一下書發布的意思就是說你在其他裡面就喊掛這個了所以以後這個題他就可以無限擴張就對了我們百分之四想幫你限縮他就把他講清楚說明白 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5429.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5454.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我們甚至希望說難聽點我們甚至希望第三方支付本來也應該視同為金融機構讓金管會來管其實你說法固管這個也很奇怪啊對啊你要不要試著把它推給金管會就好了我們會幫你的忙對你要不要試試看因為放進來就很清楚因為電子支付那第三方支付其實有規模的大小差異啦對如果把它動 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5455.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5469.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
講清楚第三方支付的定義很清楚就不會將來會有新興行業爭議爭議的問題那新興行業是另外的其他嘛我們的想法原來是這樣這樣會也會清楚然後我們更希望把第三方支付拿去給金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5472.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5488.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
謝謝委員原來行政機關的立場還是支持院辦因為其實非金融事業或人員還是經由一定的指定程序所以現在現行法的第五條第四項已經有規定所以這部分我們還是建議支持院辦謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5490.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5506.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
主席我沒有堅持但是我還是覺得第三方制度這種事情應該是經管會管每次都出發部在管這件事情其實會造成這個監理跟洗房上面的差異我只是希望說這個立場我們希望經管會跟出發部這邊可以去協調將來應該是把它統籌一個單位來處理會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5511.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5535.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好,那麼我不曉得其他委員的看法,那要不要因為這第五條,因為我們今天還進行了蠻順利的,那第五條給大家再一點時間思考,邊站保留,那我們往第六條推進,到後面我們再回過來看第三方支付跟虛擬資產,是不是要給它適當的規範強度,說不定看到後面的條文,它的規範強度已經足夠了,我們就不用在第五條裡面把它特別明列或增訂,好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5535.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5545.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好那接下來我們看第六條第六條有行政院提案還有台灣民眾黨提案及郭國文委員提案那麼請問台灣民眾黨黃委員有沒有要做說明補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5546.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5572.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好謝謝主席我想各位同仁以為因為這個案子我們一直希望說他是一個以洗錢防制為為重心的法案但是呢我們上次質詢的時候已經提過了我們感覺這次行政院版的洗房法他其實是有點幫金管會把一些該他自己去立專法的責任丟給洗房法丟給法務部也就是說你今天看到接下去的條文裡面很多都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5574.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5602.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
針對虛擬資產相關的管理方式那監管的方式不應該在洗房法這樣子這樣子的體力的法條裡面來幫監管會管他要管的對象所以我們希望說因為現在沒有母法所以沒有辦法沒有辦法管所以用洗房法來當個母法我也不反對但是我認為這個有必要將來應該是推回去給監管會另外成立專法把這些相關的管理規則怎麼樣上架什麼亂七八糟的這些管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5602.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5627.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
都不應該在洗房法上管那分級管理我們是同意的分級管理要進到法條裡面但是你有沒有登記有沒有裁罰這個都不應該是洗房法來幫他們處理的啦所以我具體建議就是說因為為了要有母法所以我們這一條我們不堅持但是我們希望它有落日條款幾年之內你儘管會要拿回去立專法把這些法條全部洗回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5627.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5637.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
否則你在洗錢防制法裡面幫你們做監管我覺得這點是有點不倫不類的。好謝謝黃委員是不是先請法務部再請監管會做說明來請法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5639.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5661.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我想如同剛才委員所講的齁以我們找到這一個洗方法可能會是很多執法的一個母法啦那以目前的狀況來講這樣的設計是有一點有一點我們是有點算是應付我們現在這個狀況啦所以希望委員能夠支持我們院辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5662.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5682.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以我的意見是我對這個急需要母法我們支持但我希望有個兩年的拖日條款請金管會拿回去做他自己該做的事這樣法務部同意嗎我覺得這樣的話比較合理啦幫你法務部你不應該在你的主管不然就把這個洗房法主管業別轉給金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5684.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5706.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
委員這個部分我們尊重就是說我希望他兩年之內要回去把虛擬資產也好其他的這些執法的管理機制什麼撤銷登記廢紙這個部分應該在洗房法裡面什麼由中央主管機關定制那都本來就是應該金管會定的所以主席我我贊成現在有一個母法但是我希望給他六日條款等一下我會提一個求證動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5708.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5718.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
因為第六條的確是針對虛擬資產第三方支付我這邊是不是先請金管會說明我在本席這邊做一個建議來先請金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5721.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5748.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
謝謝主席還有謝謝委員那這邊先說明一下那為什麼這一次會在那個洗房法裡面去引進這樣的登記制而且如果沒有登記就執行這個業務的話就會行政這個其實也是遵照非TAF非TAF他的一個指導原則非TAF的原則他提到說從事這樣的虛擬資產業務的不管是法人或是自然人他要求都要有登記的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5749.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5752.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
議員郭國文等16人擬具 «洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案案 案 規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5777.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5793.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
美國他也有在他的規定裡面規定說那個如果沒有登記的話就是做這個業務他也是有刑責的他對這些人員或是機構也都處以刑責的那另外的話跟委員這邊報告一下那 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5794.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5823.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
為什麼我們要在條文裡面特別去把這些屬於虛擬資產未來要管理的這些架構例如說上下架的審查機制或是資產分離保管等等這些事項要特別先在洗房法這邊訂當然未來如果有這種專法是當然也會訂進去但是就目前而言我們是檢視的結果這些項目是對於洗錢我們防制洗錢有特別的一個急迫性例如說上下 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5824.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5847.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
上下架的審查機制裡面的話我們知道說那目前的洗錢的三個三個階段包括處置分層還要整併這個處置階段就是他怎麼樣去把這個他的章錢把他進到我們的金融機構或是那個虛擬資產的這個事業來進行後續的這些洗錢那在處置階段他就很有可能用到這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5848.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5848.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
三）台灣三）台灣三）台灣三）台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5870.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5895.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
好那麼因為今天的列席官員蠻多的話那請大家第一次發言的時候自我介紹一下哪個單位不然我們要請教是報告主席不好意思我自我介紹我是金管會政期局那副局長黃副委員我就跟主任確認認了因為我們剛剛有見了面主任說欸是嗎沒關係那個確定是我們黃副局長好再次跟您確認好那麼委員有沒有其他委員有意見來沈委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5903.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5917.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個我當然知道剛才黃委員所提的有關落日條款的這個建議當然這是一個我們在立法過程中運用立法技術來希望說儘管未來能夠讓這個實際上應該有 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5920.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5941.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
大家認為應該由金管會來主管的第三方支付的相關的這些主管單位能夠訂定專法來加以管制這個是對於第三方支付目前的管理上面的一個正本清源之道但是如果我們在立法上面我們把落日條款放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5944.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5960.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這個會不會到時候造成反而造這個你實現到了讓這條條款落日但是金管會那邊還是缺還是我們還是沒有成功的在財財財政委員會比金管會比金管會的立法反而會變成一個法律上面的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5961.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5979.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
一個公裝洗啦所以我是我是建議說我們正本清源還是大家到財政委員會去逼金管會來趕快叮叮轉法不要把它列在不要在這個這個洗網法上面列一個落日條款到時候變成我們自己立法院在立法過程中自己卡死自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5981.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5994.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
謝謝省委員因為剛剛前條有個修正動議那這一條本來黃委員要提修正動議那我是建議還沒正式提案之前我們先印給大家參考因為有文字大家比較能夠理解那是不是請議事人員將剛剛第五條的擬修正動議跟第六條的擬修正動議先印給我們與會的委員參考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5999.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6020.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那因為剛剛第五條我們是說先暫保留大家思考一下那第六條呢我這邊是不是可以提議黃委員這邊思考如果說做修正動議有剛剛沈委員說的困擾的話我們也可以用附帶決議的方式行之啊那看看大家看看文字內容如果覺得文字內容以改以附帶決議的方式行之我們待會回頭來再處理好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6022.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6046.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
好那我們第六條比照第五條先暫保留那我們先將擬修正動議給大家參考那再考慮看是有修正動議或以這個附帶決的方式來為之好接下來我們看第七條來第七條呢是因為行政院提案那提案內容呢就是不予修訂本條未修訂那麼是不是我們就照 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6050.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6078.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
呃對不起我看第七條吼啊第七條有條次變更然後有其他的罰環的處罰規定那是不是我們大家看看第七條的部分是否有意見第七條吼在四十九頁的部分在那裡在這審判會那裡大家看看第四十九頁吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6079.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6107.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
到第五十頁的部分他是將條次變更然後呢將環環上限提高也增列了案次處罰的規定那如果沒有意見我們就照行政院提案通過好那麼接下來呢第八條那第八條有行政院提案那同樣的也是條次變更那同樣的也是將處罰的部分呢預修正提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6109.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6136.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那請問各位委員對於行政院提案內容有無不同意見那如果沒有的話我們第八條就照行政院提案通過好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6139.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6162.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
接下來我們第下一個欄位因為我們這裡說明一下因為台灣民眾黨黨團提案他並不是條次沒有超過二分之一所以不是全文修正所以他是以部分條文修訂的方式在條次上他有一個第七條之一那是不是這邊我們請黃委員針對民眾黨提案的第七條之一進行說明請 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6163.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6180.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好謝謝主席我想這個主要是因為我們在財委會發現很多的包括虛擬資產業者或者是這些希望能夠跟我們的法務單位或者是檢調單位進行平台甚至虛擬資產跟銀行之間也沒有平台所以現在的問題就在於 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6182.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6182.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6211.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6223.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
不以做這樣技術性的規定的話我們希望說法務部這邊能夠儘速完成這個平台的建制那法條我們就不再堅持那希望說實質上有做到就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6224.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6245.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好 謝謝歡迎說明大家可以參考我們的第53頁在民眾黨團提案說明當中他特別強調了擔心這個客戶是否列明各國的制裁名單是不是有洗錢等相關犯罪的前科那這個是屬於政府掌握的資料所以是建議構置這樣的平台是不是法務部先做一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6246.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6273.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
謝謝主席委員本部內網有所謂的公告制裁名單專區那DNFVP主管機關也會含情本部呢進行有五前科的四格性的審查那第二本部為了執法的需要目前已經跟其他部會虛擬資產交易所還有相關執法機關建立諸如向金融資料調取電子化平台KYC |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6274.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6296.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
資料線上調取平臺虛擬資產重大案件通報機制數位部並預計在113年6月底呢要供各執法機關線上使用第三方支付服務業虛擬帳號查詢平臺我想這些的平臺都是用來查詢相關的一些資料那至於監理部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6297.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6321.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
因為我們本部並不是金融機構那DNFBP的目的事業主管機關所以我們大概不是很方便凌駕在這些主管機關的就是建立一個大平台因為我們不是主要的不是目的主管機關那如果這些機關需要調取資料的話我們這些平台都會提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6322.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6345.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
大概是這個意思好謝謝好謝謝策長說明那麼請問黃委員對於剛剛這樣的說明內容就是說法務部不是建制平台但是他們內部的這些資料可以供其他的機關調取那這樣的機制是否您覺得可以用附帶決議的方式來具體要求好的如果這樣的話那我們的法條我們的條文本身用附帶決議的方式來提進行要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6347.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6372.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那這個附帶訣的部分我們在尊重委員的提案那稍後再處理那第第九個藍刺就是民眾黨的第七條之一呢我們就不予增列好那麼接下來是第九條第九條有行政院的提案跟民眾黨團的提案在第十一條的部分那是不是我們請看第五十四頁那請問黃委員有沒有要做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6379.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6405.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
好的我想這個也是我們希望說在國際合作上面的處理所以其實內容都是比照FATF的公告制定的那我們就這個部分其實跟院版的部分其實沒有什麼太大的差異我們認為說還是依照國際洗房組織的公告來做那當然院版的部分其實內容又比較完整那我們也都尊重好那麼法務部要不要做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6406.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6423.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
沒有沒有吼好那麼第九條吼他在第二項的部分吼所謂的洗錢或知恐高風險國家或地區他有明白的列入下面三款一二三款那麼民眾黨的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6423.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6443.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
他是在第二項就直接是依國際洗房組織的公告那剛剛黃委員也可以接受我們行政院提案以三款的方式來明白訂定那是我們在場委員第九條的部分我們依行政院提案來通過好同意同意好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6445.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6472.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那接下來我們看第10條第10條是行政院提案那它是條次變更那同時它也有在華凡上還有案次處罰上予以加強請問委員對於本案有無意見沒有黃委員這邊沒有好那我們第10條的部分就按行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6473.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6498.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好那接下來我們看第11條有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案第10條之一那是不是先請黃委員這邊就民眾黨提案做說明是我們大概也是針對他們所做的內容做一些完整的敘述那院版的部分其實也都還蠻明確的所以這兩邊我們原則上願意尊重院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6500.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6526.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
好,其他委員是否也覺得可以接受行政院提案?好,那我們第11條就依行政院提案通過。好,接下來第12條有行政院提案,那是條次變更。同時呢,它對於罰還跟案次處罰的規定予以增強。請問各位委員對於行政院提案有沒有其他的意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6530.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6551.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那沒有的話我們第二十二條案行政院提案通過接下來我們看第十三條十三條也是行政院提案內容同樣是條次變更那也是將罰還上限跟案次處罰的規定呢予以加強請問各位委員對於行政院提案內容是否有不同意見或補充請 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6552.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6579.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
沒有好那我們第13條呢就按行政院提案通過接下來看到第14條第14條有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案的第12條那是否黃委員要先進行說明好的我想也是一樣就是針對末路的部分那我們是著作文字修正那調整文字內容的話我們也可以尊重面板的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6581.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6601.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
好謝謝黃委員那請問在場委員我們第14條部分是否依行政院提案通過同意好同意好接下來我們看第15條呃第15條是新增那這裡面呢是對於查扣的規定呢予以把他詳細規定那是不是法務部要進行說明第66頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6617.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6645.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個內容跟民眾黨的第12條之一內容是一樣就是保證金跟擔保金的用詞不同只有一個是用擔保金一個是用保證金行政院提案用保證金民眾黨提案用擔保金來市長謝謝主席我想我們希望能夠依照院版那黃委員在電話中等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6647.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6671.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那黃委員請問呃行政院版用保證金那民眾黨提案用擔保金是否接受行政院版的保證金沒意見好那請問站長加委員是否我們本案按照行政院提案通過同意好謝謝我們按照行政院提案通過接下來我們看到第16條哈16條呢是新增啊那麼是對於呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6674.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6689.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
剛剛的處分他的擔保跟假扣押的程序進行規定那本案只有行政院版那法務部要不要說明沒有沒有好那請問委員第16條按照行政院提案通過有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6690.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6715.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好那我們第16條呢就叫行政院提案通過接下來呢第17條也是行政院提案那麼也是新增這個部分呢是授予一些關於防制洗錢或打擊知恐的目的要予以分析那也可以內容呢在第二項呢可以跟其他國內外的相關機構分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6717.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6733.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那最後第四項呢他的辦法呢是由法務部定制吼那這一點吶因為涉及到人民各自隱私有沒有可能做非目的外目的外之使用這個部分是不是可以請法務部來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6735.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6752.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
謝謝主席因為以往其實洗房處對這項工作也一直在推行可是所適用的法律大概都是屬於他們內部的規定那因為又牽扯到各自法的問題覺得這一個分析以及資料的調取 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6753.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6765.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
有一個法院的依據是比較好對於民眾的權益保護以及執法者他的法律上的地位會相對的比較有保障所以我們建議就是按照院版的把它明文化謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6768.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6784.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
好是那請問在場委員對於剛剛法務部的說明是因為涉及到人民的各自隱私非有法律規定的授權那無法進行處理所以因此希望能夠建立這個規定那在這裡我還是要提醒一下因為最後這個辦法還是由法務部定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6786.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6808.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以如果委員對於人民的人權或各自隱私的保障有什麼想法的話我們是不是就是尊重行政院提案那如果大家有覺得不足的地方可以用附帶訣的方式來予以補充可以嗎黃委員可以好那我們17條按照行政院提案通過那接下來我們看第18條 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6811.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6838.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
來18條呢目前也是行政院提案他是條次變更就這樣而已請問大家各位委員對於18條條次變更文字著作修正有沒有不同意見那如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院提案通過好接下來請看第19條那第19條呢有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨的提案第14條請問黃委員有沒有要做補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6844.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6865.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
七十二頁七十二頁的第十四條我們這邊是在特定犯罪達一億元以上的罰則是比原版的要重一些三年以上十年以下他們現在是六個月以上五年以下那五年以下我們認為說可能還是沒有辦法達到賀詞的作用所以我們提案是比較加重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6867.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6875.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好 那個防護部要說明因為你們一般的話是比較重但是在特定的話相對於民眾黨版是比較輕來 次長請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6878.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6906.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
因為原來的規定七年以下有期徒刑有時候會碰到他情節是比較輕微的那這個案子的話是完全沒辦法議科罰金所以對於可能判刑以後要入監有些情節是比較輕微的所以我們就希望說能夠在一億元這個未達一億元的話我們有一個六個月到五年以下他那個空間是留給法官有機會可以議科罰金不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6907.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6932.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
就是判那麼重所以我們就把他局局分開然後分開以後呢就變成說如果是在一億元已經超過一億元的話那當然就是從重來量刑那如果是還沒有到達一億元我們希望定是六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑給情節輕微的有一點機會我想大概立法的我們建議的話大概的用意是在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6934.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6949.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6949.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6978.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
體力上是表述方式不一樣啦我正在想說一億元以上怎麼會他是一億元以下一億元以下變輕對因為我們的想法是一億元以上就你看一年以上七年以下你判兩年以下還是有機會緩刑啊所以為什麼我們要定在三年以上讓他有緩刑的機會都沒有你都洗錢到一億了你還可以緩刑嗎你只要繳回錢現在國人最痛困的就是這些人只要繳回錢來他就不用坐牢 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6979.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7004.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
如果這個都已經確定你是洗錢到一億元以上的話還可以緩行這我想一般國人會沒有辦法接受所以我們才會把三年當成一個基準就是你訂到一億了你就沒有緩行的機會是來法務部這邊因為等於如果按照剛剛黃委員這樣說法的話如果以行政院的提案內容可能第一項前段要寫三年以上記念以下請回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7006.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7024.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
其實一年以上七年以下已經比原來的就重了。原來是七年以下那去年以下是有期徒刑以上就兩個月以上都可以判那現在已經規定說洗錢法的話一年以上七年以下我們覺得這樣的刑度應該是適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7028.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7028.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
議員郭國文等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7048.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7050.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們大概的意見是這樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7073.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7073.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
議員郭國文 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7090.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7113.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
法官為什麽大家看到詐欺犯那一般有沒有他在開好車住豪宅然後繼續讓他交交錢就了事甚至可以緩刑這個是讓一般民眾沒有辦法接受所以也許這一次修成這樣如果再不行如果還是詐欺犯居高不下的話我想這個修法委員們也會持續把它加重好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7113.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7142.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好委員今天我們先這樣啊如果看你一年之內沒有表現表現的詐欺案沒有一億元以上的沒有下降的話我們就繼續加重好謝謝黃委員那是否其他委員也同意我們就依行政院提案先與通過好那麼其實呢這個在國外的虛幣交易所就有一個現在正在做了啊因為他繳了很多錢他做的行期就比較短才四個月好那麼我們第49條呢就照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7143.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7170.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
好那接下來呢我們請看第20條20條有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨第15條的部分在第76頁請問黃委員是不是要先就民眾黨團版做說明因為我覺得這個部分我們是把它分的比較比較比較細緻啦那但是院版它其實也大概有包括了所以對內容部分如果沒有特別的話我們院版的話也可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7171.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7194.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好其他委員是否同意我們按照行政院版好那我們第20條按照行政院提案通過接下來請看第21條在第81頁那這是條次變更那做部分文字的修訂那請問各位委員是否我們第21條一行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7196.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7211.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
好 同意齁 好 那我們21條一行政院提案通過接下來請看第22條 22條呢是有行政院提案以及台灣民眾黨團提案第15條之二在第82頁請問黃委員是不是要做補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7213.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7232.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好這個可能要特別跟主席跟各位同仁補充就是我們的第六項跟第七項因為現在我們發生了所謂的警示賬戶或者是現在有一種叫告誡賬戶就是你可能是因為當了人頭變成告誡賬戶他所警示賬戶他是有被 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7233.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7250.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
有相關的警示跟解除的程序但是告誡賬戶目前沒有我們上次質詢的時候監管會表示說沒有所以我們特別把這些賬戶的不管是要監管或者是要警示或者是他因為已經查明清楚已經不起訴處分已經無罪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7251.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7277.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那他要解除都把他具體的提出你應該定出一個相關的程序的做法所以我們在第六項第七項我們認為說這是解除現在實務上面目前法務部還有相關的單位沒有這些程序的問題我們希望定出一個程序的規範請他們盡速的定出相關的辦法以上好那麼請法務部就第六項第七項在第84頁的部分請做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7281.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7287.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
台灣民眾黨團版的提案。第六項、第七項。好,對不起,第七項、第八項說錯了。84頁第七項、第八項。 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7296.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7314.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
行事不起訴處分的認定跟無正當理由交付提供賬戶而被裁處性質為行政處分的告誡兩者處理的事實類型不同那前者主要是個案事實為主觀具有 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7315.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7341.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
幫助詐欺或幫助洗錢的範例而構成幫助詐欺或幫助洗錢等罪嫌而裁處告誡是個案事實是處理主觀上明知自己交付提供帳戶或帳號然其交付提供不具正當理由的情形這兩個構成要件是不相同的並不是形式不起訴處分確定就代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7342.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7354.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
行為人交付提供帳戶帳號有正當的理由那告誡是行政處分應循術院行政訴訟途徑救濟而不是解除這是以本部的說明請教方委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7357.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7385.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我想這個我再補充一下為什麼會這樣做就是很多人他被告戒了但是他要等到拿到不起訴處分的時候已經超過了他訴願的期限他已經沒有救濟的機會然後他就一直被告戒著他告戒不是不能用是很難用然後他也沒辦法解除因為他已經超過了訴願期限他們已經沒有程序處理所以上次我質詢法務部的時候他們也兩手一攤說沒有規定程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7385.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7404.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
所以警示賬戶有解除的程序反而告誡賬戶沒有我們才希望說你訂出一個辦法你可以不要立立在這個法裡面但是你要訂出這個程序來對否則他連救濟的機會都沒有這是實務上碰到的我們實際上有相關陳情案件上次也問過法務部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7405.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7427.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好 那麼法務部就針對黃委員的部分請回說明謝謝主席 包委員告誡他是行政處分沒有錯但是在書面的上面就有記載救濟的途徑那30天之內就可以提出訴願這個是不用的但是他拿到不起訴處分書已經超過你的30天我現在去訴願也沒用啊因為我沒有證據證明我是無辜的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7429.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7454.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
對 這個跟不起訴處分是不是幫助詐欺或幫助洗錢這個是刑事調查是脫鉤的這個是認定他有沒有正當理由提供賬戶這是兩件事情所以並沒有去連結說一定要等到不起訴處分才能夠做這樣的糾結大部分的人都沒辦法證明自己我說我有正當理由你說沒有你已經被告誡了然後你已經受到法院權法院還沒判 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7454.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7478.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
你根本就麻布沒關係各讓我們來處理但是我覺得你們要訂出一個告誡賬戶如何解除的程序否則書院期間過了怎麼辦或者是他拿到證明的狀況怎麼辦我們不會無緣無故訂這個辦法啦因為就是因為碰到太多人跟你們解也解不解不開法務部可能不會不會細緻到處理這麼小的事情但是的確很多的民眾是受到侵害的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7479.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7504.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好那麼這個部分我是不是建議我們先暫時保留一下齁啊讓那個黃委員思考一下附帶決議的方式來那個陳委員主席我想不用保留啦齁今天剛剛我聽聽這個黃委員的意見他也並沒有堅持要把這個列在立法裡面但是他是他他他剛才所關注的事項確實在現在實務上面這個這個被列為這個高級高階帳戶的狀況齁確實是這個這個民眾在 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7509.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7527.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
在這個舉證上面很困難所以他必須等待這個法院的這個不起訴處分作為證明所以對你們來講這個在法理上是脫鉤的但是在實務上面他是他確實確實結合在一起所以這才是才是花為關注的地方那我是認為說這個用附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7529.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7556.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
如果可以的話我們用附帶決議來要求法務部來就這個部分必須要訂定相關的辦法。那黃委員同意嗎?那附帶決議部分我們就先開始試擬啦那我是覺得法務部也可以就黃委員的意旨先試著試擬一下達到黃委員所關切的事實上民意機關作為人民協助人民在面對行政或司法上的追訴或處分的時候呢都會設法以民眾的利益來做幫他做爭取那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7557.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7565.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這樣的利益是相當好的那是不是請我們這一條呢我們如果沒有意見我們就按照行政院提案通過但是就請待會的附帶決議部門我們來擬一個附帶決議好來來羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7570.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7591.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我剛剛也是就是跟著我們的黃珊珊委員的意見我覺得法務部這個確實有些個案已經出現這個狀況所以我們民意代表才會收到這些狀況所以因此我們作為政府機關不能對這些狀況是兩手一攤那即便不是在這個條文裡面處理其實也不能讓這種狀況就是讓民眾來承擔這種無法解決的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7596.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7610.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以因此我覺得也同意附帶決議也就是說應該行政機關還是我覺得法務部要去研究出一個方式可以跟華山委員對接一下說到底什麼樣的狀況那用什麼樣的方式可以去把這個缺口把它補起來以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7611.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7636.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好謝謝委員好那麼就請次長請我們同仁先試擬那我們第22條就依行政院提案通過那我們附帶決議稍後再處理現在已經有可能兩個或三個附帶決議擬議中好第23條有行政院提案及台灣民眾黨提案的第16條那麼這個請看第85頁那是不是黃委員這邊要做補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7639.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7663.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這一條的部分我們看過以後可以接受院版的內容好請問站長委員我們是否就照行政院提案通過好同意那我們第23條案行政院提案通過接下來請看第24條第88頁有行政院提案及台灣民眾黨團提案的第17條那同樣的是不是先請黃委員進行補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7666.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7673.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
二十四條的部分這個部分我們修正以後我們也同意原版的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7675.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7700.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
主席不好意思我再補充一下但是後面這一項可能希望能夠給他可能可以針對進去的部分就是金融機構跟指定非金融機構的從業人員這一條的部分可能我們會希望他比較完整一點然後對第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7703.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7729.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
法務部針對那個民眾黨團提案的第四項金融機構會或指定非金融事業或人員基於洗錢防制目的而洩露或交付等等等等後面的這些相關事項由法務部定之這是由法律授權給法務部來定定請問法務部對於這第四項的看法沒關係先讓一點時間這個是寫得不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7737.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7763.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
好謝謝主席金融機構及指定之非金融機事業或人員對於大額交易申報可疑申報可疑交易申報之免除業務上應保守祕密義務現行法第九條第二項第十條第二項就是為本部修正草案第十二條第二項第十三條第二項一定有明文 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7772.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7787.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們這個主要是因為我們發現就是銀行跟銀行之間他們可能銀行金控之間通報沒有問題現在是各銀行之間互相去照會或瞭解狀況的時候可能會有所謂的洩漏格子的問題所以有很多銀行不願意提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7788.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7804.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
協助或者是相關所以我剛才會講說第一那個平台很重要第二也要免除他們所謂泄密責任第三個也要授權他們有這樣子的通報的權利否則現在碰到的困難就是A銀行去問B銀行B銀行不會告訴他對 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7807.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7822.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
主席除了剛才有一個免責條款以外在打詐專法現在也是在大院修正裡面第八條第二項十三條有照會的機制可以因應在發現有可疑的資料銀行跟銀行之間是可以照會 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7823.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7837.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
市長可以把整部法條裡面跟洗房跟打炸的部分的照會包括剛剛講的平台跟通報機制給我一份完整的東西不然像散落在各個部門我們實在是每天東問西問都不一樣好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7839.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7868.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
如果你這邊有那邊也有那有照會的機制有免除他的限密責任的問題那這個我覺得就讓這些金融機構從業人員或者是相關巡禮資產從業人員他們有一個依循可循啊否則現在變成是這邊法條寫一個那邊法條寫一個你把整個完整的版本弄出來第二個平台就是這個目標嘛就是希望說大家去那個平台可以查到東西也不會被也不會負相關的所謂限密的責任那政府應該做這樣的溝通跟管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7869.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7889.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我的目的只是這樣而已。好,來,次長能不能走中間。謝謝主席。那會後我們會整理好資料給委員長表。這樣子齁,我是不是做個先處理齁,因為這個第四項的部分,台灣民眾黨團的提案的第四項,原來他是補充行政院提案24條的相關保密的免責規定。對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7890.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7907.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那這個在我們行政院提案後來條次修訂後的第12條跟第13條有部分的一些規定但是呢黃委員的意思是說這個部分因為他不能調次齁還是按照原來的調次啦如果真的要採納也這樣的一個原文也 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7908.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7931.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
沒有辦法完全照用是不是我們把第四項法務部先做個研究那把剛剛說的打詐專法的相關內容呢先背個文字給我們委員參考那我們這一個部分先暫保留那大家看到了內容之後我們再回過頭來看怎麼樣把它修得更完善一點好那麼第24條我們先暫保留啦那我接下來往下推進 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7933.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7956.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
請看第二十五條二十五條在八十九月到九十月有行政院提案及台灣民眾黨團提案的第十八條那也是一樣請黃委員做補充這部分只是文字上的調整我們尊重院版那因為是條次修正是不是各位委員我們同意第二十五條按照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7958.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7975.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
同意好同意好那我們就第25條照行政院提案通過那接下來請看第26條那有行政院提案他基本上是條次變更做部分文字修訂那請問各位委員第26條一行政院提案通過是我同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7978.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7998.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好 同意吼 那我們第26條依行政院提案通過那麼第27條呢 有行政院提案只是條是變更內容並未修正是否我們就27條依行政院提案通過同意吼 好 那我們27條依行政院提案通過接下來請看第28條行政院提案以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8001.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8026.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
條色變更號以及台灣民眾黨黨團提案的第二十一條請看第九十三頁那是不是請黃委員做補充這一條我們只是增加了一個段數就是如果說依照這個條約或協定規定禁止或應符合一定要件使為特定目的外資用者不在此限有點在擴大一些他們的空間但是如果沒有的話我們也沒有意見尊重院辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8027.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8054.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好那麼法務部那個因為這個但書規定第三項的後項但書規定後半段但書規定黃偉震不堅持說尊重行政院版那個包主席我們也有但書的規定我們那個草案也有你也有沒有但書規定對看到了好那麼如果委員同意的話我們第28條是否依行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8056.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8076.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
同意啦齁那第28條我們依行政院提案通過接下來請看第29條29條呢是新增那麼有行政院提案及台灣民眾黨提案的第21條之一請看第96月97月那同樣的我們請黃委員先做補充這部分我們尊重院板 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8078.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8098.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那我們包括其他委員我們第29條是否依行政院提案通過好同意我們第29條依行政院提案通過接下來我們替看第30條那30條呢他基本上他就是條次變更那做部分文字修訂那是否大家同意我們按照行政院提案來通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8100.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8111.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
同意我們第30條一行政院提案通過那第31條也一樣是行政院提案條之變更那幫日期呢做一個規定那請問各位委員是不是第31條好 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8116.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8135.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
第三十一條現在有一個擬修正的部分是我們黃委員這邊我們先給各位看一下這是目前還沒有修正動議是擬修正動議請大家參考是我們請議事人員應給大家看一下第三十一條那大家手上請黃委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8139.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8159.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
好各位同仁我想這個主要是我們認為說這次洗方法儘管會很偷懶就把它的應該定的專法的規範全部關在洗錢防制法裡面所以我們覺得這樣很不公平那第二個就是說虛擬資產業者跟第三方制服的監理他本來就需要有明文的法院依據不是用洗方法來當授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8160.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8161.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8191.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8205.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
對那因為這個本條修正動議的擬議是在我們之前第六條那目前我們第五條跟第六條是先暫保留剛剛意思是說是不是先請行政機關就第六條剛剛我們黃遠的意見能夠增強對於相關的執法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8212.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8235.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
落實啦那這個部分我是不是說我們這個擬修正動議我們第31條並同第6條待會我們一併看附帶決議的部分再來進行處理那是不是我們給行政機關一個時間將附帶決議先做個草擬那我們先休息那建議我們11點繼續可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8238.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8246.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
好那我們先休息好那11點後我們繼續開會那先這段時間請行政機關就剛剛的委員意見先是你附帶決議請謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9940.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9941.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
好我們準備繼續開會了告解 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9979.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9984.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
好謝謝我們各位委員那也請我們列席機關代表先回座。 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9988.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
10002.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那主席在這邊先做一個更正齁剛剛我們在處理台灣民眾黨黨團提案增訂第七條之一那因為剛剛經過我們的意見呢應該是不予採納不是不予增訂齁我們就修正為不予採納好 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
10004.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
10027.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那接下來我們回過頭來看到前面幾個暫保留的部分首先看到第五條那第五條剛剛的一個意見是說可以用附帶決議的方式來進行處理那現在附帶決議的擬議已經放在各位委員的桌上我個人先簽名那大概這個附帶決的內容我是就直接來跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
10028.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
10049.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
各位委員跟委員會做說明。附帶決議第五條第三方支付已由行政院110年8月18日依《洗房法》第五條第四項規定指定為同條第三項第五款之非金融事業或人員應適用《洗房法》第五條第二項及第四項之規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
10050.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
10077.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那這裡呢這個互代捐內容我再說明一下由於剛剛的在處理的是處理第五條行政院提案以及郭國文委員提案當中第三方支付是否要放在第二項當中辦理融資性租賃提供虛擬資產服務就是本來第二項只有融資性租賃以及提供虛擬資產服務那 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
10080.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
10102.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
國版加入了第三方支付。由於第二項與第四項是一個並列的項目,如果第二項加入了第三方支付,第四項就要加入第三方支付。這三個都是屬於非金融事業。但是有關於非金融事業的部分,在同條款的第三項的第五款, |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
10103.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
10132.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
其他業務特性或交易形態亦為洗錢犯罪利用之事業或從業人員那依行政院的部分他已經有公布了第三方支付就是在第三項的第五款當中那就是屬於非金融機構非金融事業那他的地位是跟融資性租賃和虛擬資產服務是同樣的都是屬於非金融 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
10133.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
10147.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
機構裡面但是會容易涉及到洗錢的所以呢就應該比照融資性租賃和虛擬資產服務適用第二項跟第四項的相關規定所以呢這樣的附帶決議已經充分的將 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
10148.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
10164.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
第三方支付的性質等同於融資性服務,融資性租賃跟虛擬資產服務。」那這樣的一個內容,請問在黨委員覺得是否可以接受?那來,請,黃委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
10168.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
10183.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
是稍微你的稍微是意思是說現在就變成郭國文版本的那個就不放進去了就沒有放進去但是呢用戶代決的指名第三方支付的性質啊他等同於是第二項的 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
10183.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
10207.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
融資性租賃及虛擬資產服務因為這兩者本來就不是金融機構但是呢他在處理上根據第四項的規定他是要受到這些相關的規範的大概是這樣子只是用附帶決的方式點名第三方支付的特質性質是屬於類同於融資性租賃和虛擬資產服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
10209.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
10209.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
來 那黃總章 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
10224.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
10249.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
在立法的體力上面竟然我們都已經決定要把第三方支付跟在第二項第四項提供虛擬資產服務的事業跟人員把它奉在同一個類別裡面進行規範我現在有點困惑的事情是說那為什麼不把它直接在法律明文就好了竟然要用附帶決議的方式繞了一個彎 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
10251.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
10275.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
對 這個在整個立法的體系上面是不是可以請主管機關稍微說明一下如果我們現在立法者我們在討論立法的過程當中已經很明確的要把它放在跟同一個類別加以規範那不放在法條裡面是用附帶決議的方式來加以處理那它實際上面的考慮到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
10276.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
10282.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
好那麼請書發部說明應該是在第二第五條第三項的部分請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
10287.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
10315.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
拜託主席和委員因為非金融事業或人員原則上他的程序是由主管機關去申請向那個行政院去申請指定然後由行政院指定所以大概所有的過程都是這樣子那如果是因為未來如果有些新興的樣態的話要納入的話也是循這個程序來處理那我們因為行政院在110年110年的時候8月的時候已經指定他這個是屬於那種非金融事業所以我們是認為說既然是這樣子的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
10317.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
10345.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個第五條條文裡面有提到非金融事業或人員本來就包含第三方支付所以不用再另外去寫那我們的意思是這樣就是未來如果處理方式是一致的話也是可以照這樣處理如果未來有新的話那就不用特別寫他本來就適用所以我們才會用那個附帶決議的方式來處理以上說明好謝謝請黃總召我們再進一步交換一件就是說其實如果按照你剛剛那樣的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
10346.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
10352.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那附帶決議其實不應該這樣寫因為沒有在第二項跟第四項的問題而是在你剛剛所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
10355.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
10384.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那個第三項的第五款的射程範圍內我的意思是說如果啦按照的是你剛剛那樣子的說法的話那反而不應該做這個附帶決議因為會把整個規範的結構變得非常的複雜也就是按照行政院目前的看法是屬於在第三項第五款那我們既然用附帶決議的方式又把它放在第二項跟第四項但是第二個部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
10386.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
10404.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
在立法的體力上面有兩種狀況第一種狀況是我們直接把第三方支付放在法條當中那他就會成為一個法律條文的一部分也就是未來不管行政院他所指定的行業如何變動都會成為法律規範的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
10405.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
10420.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
但是你如果現在是把他放在第三項第五款的話就會隨著行政院他的指定或不指定而去變動這個法條設成範圍所及所以我最後要請教的問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
10422.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
10451.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
在整個政策的選擇上把第三方支付明確的寫在法條當中不會因為行政院的指定或不指定而變動跟你們希望不要放在裡面保留給行政院未來指定或不指定彈性的空間我覺得講到最後啦大概就是這兩種立法模式上面的選擇是不是可以請主管機關再進一步的表達他們的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
10452.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
10479.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好那麼請書法部可以提醒一下因為目前的洗房法的第五條的原文的第二項就已經包含了融資性租賃以及虛擬通貨平台當初是用融資虛擬通貨平台現在叫做虛擬資產服務啦那因為原條文本身就已經把這兩個名列了那請書法部說明一下為什麼融資性 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
10480.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
10494.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
租賃及虛擬通貨平台在原條文當中他既不是認定為金融機構但又適用金融機構的規定他當時的立法考量以及現在你們將融資性租賃和虛擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
10496.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
10510.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
通貨平台或說虛擬資產服務之外所有的非金融機構你們都一概的用第三項的第五款去含設在這裡面請說明這個差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
10513.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
10538.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
主席還有委員那個第三方支付的部分有本部主管所以本部說明這部分就是我剛才講的那個邏輯原則上就是保留一個彈性那就是選擇就像黃委員講的是後面那個立法邏輯就是所有的新興的東西都可以依照第三項第五款來去做處理那至於為什麼虛擬資產或是融資性的租賃因為並非本部主管就可能要請法務部或是金管會來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
10540.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
10564.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
來那個金管會能不能說明這個不對這個是法務部法務部先試著說明吧因為融資性租賃跟虛擬資產服務目前的主管歸屬是在金管會嗎那金管會說明一下當時洗房法把融資性租賃跟虛擬資產服務特別單獨在 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
10566.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
10584.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
第五條的第二項明定它非金融機構但又適用金融機構的規定那這兩個條文都沒有改變嗎那這個當時的立法的原意這兩項為什麼特別把它標明出來而不是用第三項第五款去規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
10586.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
10600.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
跟主席還有委員報告有關於榮租性租賃公司要把他納進來是當時我們這個版本在提交給大院的時候在大院裡面特別把它加進來的對是好那麼那個黃黃 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
10602.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
10630.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
主席,那虛擬資產的部分是因為那個非TAF他有這樣要求啦所以才在洗方法裡面把它加訂進去。OK,好所以洗方法原條文現行的原條文在第五條的第二項原來的融資性租賃及虛擬資產服務就是配合國際公約的規定。國際的規定我們就把它放進去了在原來的洗方法就放進去了那這一次是並沒有再額外的增訂那這次是透過第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
10631.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
10646.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
向的第五款去把其他非金融機構的有高風險的都用這個條次規定來規管,是這樣意思嗎?好,那訪問部有沒有要做補充?沒有,尊重。好,請黃總召。 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
10649.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
10677.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
其實剛剛行政部門把在這兩種立法模式上面的選擇我想說明的很清楚那我只是要希望點出來說就是說過去兩次其實在健心減肝的論壇上面對於在強化行政管制的部分其實具體有點出來的就是包括了我們現在所講的虛擬資產跟第三方的支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
10678.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
10698.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
因此如果在政策的立場上面各個黨團的委員跟行政部門都同意把第三方支付給放進去的話那其實我覺得在洗錢防制法這一次的修正當中把它明確的在第二項跟第四項把它並列事實上是一個比較好的立法模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
10701.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
10724.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
好那麼在場因為這個附帶決議是擬議啦好意思是說如果因為剛剛第五條的部分大家覺得三支的角色剛剛經過說明是在同條文的第三項第五款其他經過指定的部分那指定的程序也已經在附帶決議當中表明他應該未來在管理上是一樣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
10725.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10753.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
用第二項及第三項的規定類同於融資性租賃及虛擬資產服務的方式來規管那請問在場委員對於第五條的部分依行政院提案然後我們附帶這個決議的方法的處理上有意見是不是我們也請那個吳昭偉有沒有什麼特別看法目前都還尊重大家的想法那個省委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10758.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
10764.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我想這個剛才我們這個金管會這邊大概講的有說明的蠻清楚就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
10766.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
10787.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
因為我們現在目前在這樣方式確實如剛才黃總召所講的齁就是他他我們有有這樣子有列舉式的把這個這個融資性租賃事業還有這個虛擬資產服務齁這個有把它列舉出來那現在大家的爭執就是說這個第三方支付是不是應該也同時列舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
10788.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
10798.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
列舉在上面那在在其他的新興行業齁再用這個這個未來的這個第五款來處理啦齁第一那這個我 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
10800.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
10829.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那剛才也說明說那為什麼只列舉這兩樣為什麼其他的我們大家其他關心不知道第三方支付這個確實在現在的洗錢防制上面變成一個很重要的大家也認為是一個很重要的一個關鍵那這個金管會的說明是說它是完全就是按照FATF的你們就是按照FATF因為FATF上面就把這兩項列舉出來所以我們就要依照FATF的這個方式來列舉在洗錢防制法上面那我覺得這個部分其實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
10831.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
10844.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
在我這樣一個早上剛剛從前面討論過一次那後現在回頭保留回頭再討論之後我想還是同樣的問題就是說其實大家都關注都認為說第三方支付確實現在應該要列入管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
10846.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10869.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我們行政院提的願版他們比較傾向於說因為為了因應未來可能還有很多新興的這些新興的這些非金融的這樣子的相關的這些這些業別都可能要納入或都有可能會成為這個洗錢防制的一些新興的一些重要的行業所以他們是認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10872.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10885.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
他們也沒有說不宜啦他們只是說他們覺得說這樣子列舉可能未來任何再有這種新興的這種這種行業他就我們是不是立法就一直要把他列舉那這個其實也不是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10886.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10910.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
大反對的理由。我覺得這其實就很簡單的一個選擇在我們是不是如果大家有共識就是說看尊重行政院版本大家有沒有共識那如果大家覺得說還是應該要列入比較好那我們是不是就把這個條文保留到政黨協商那大家最後還是一個其實這最後還是一個立法技術的選擇而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10913.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10933.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
來 謝謝請吳督昭委我是建議就是說這應該是保留然後給大家一點時間再去討論一下因為我還是覺得對於現在要主要我們這一次提這個主要是要打擊是詐騙嘛但是做任何限制跟那個市場的市場的這個機制上面我覺得還是要達到一個平衡啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10933.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10946.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
告告度的限制其實有時候會不會對國家經濟發展會有一個風險這也是一個問題所以給我們一點時間然後我們去了解然後在那個我們協商的時候我們提出來然後找到一個對國人最最好的那個那個標準點好 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10949.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10977.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好 謝謝謝謝吳昭偉來謝謝我們來請莊委員謝謝昭偉我是不是再來就教一下啦因為我剛剛好在記者會啊也沒有聽得很清楚啦你們到底是不把第三方支付列進來你們最重要的想法是什麼報告委員齁不是不列不是不列進來是110年的時候已經行政院公告他就是屬於非金融機構也是已經按照原來的規範在管制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10978.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10992.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
已經有了已經有了如果今天把它列到第二項的話那跟原來的已經公告的那個又不合了那可能是照程序的話可能那個部分的指定命令又有問題了是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10996.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
11017.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
對因為已經公告他其實已經受規範了那現在只是特別的要把他拿出來第二項放在這個適用的這個部分那跟原來認定他是第三項的第第五第五款的是又變得不一樣了我們現在已經指定了已經行政院110年就已經指定他是第三項的其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
11018.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
11041.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
已經已經指定了對對對已經第一現在已經有規範了要不要把他特別抽出來那因為因為包委現在新興的一個一個服務行業非常的多那你你現在列上去如果萬一明年又有一個新興行業出來我們又要回過頭來檢討說這第四個要不要也再放進來好理理理理 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
11045.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
11061.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以主席我想爭取一下那個中間這邊因為他剛剛在說明的很清楚嘛就行政院110年就已經很清楚的把第三方支付已經很清楚的定義是非金融事業或人員嘛所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
11062.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
11068.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我剛提的也是這個啊就是我說還是保留大家再討論一下因為我剛有講到嘛一個是你市場的運作一個是對於國人的保護嘛兩個要找到一個平衡點 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
11088.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
11113.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
因為你先我的想法是這樣啦所以我說還是希望說給一點時間讓我們大家再研究一下然後再討論好那這樣子啦齁那因為齁這裡面涉及到問題齁其實呢按照原來的我們這個本齁這一本的第23頁原來行政院提案的立法說明在第4點的部分已經寫到了剛剛說的好大家可以參考第22頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
11114.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
11135.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
他說指定第三方支付服務業為第三項第五款之非金融事業或人員那這裡的非金融事業或人員如果是放在第三項第五款那他跟第一項的金融機構或是第二項的融資性租賃或虛擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
11137.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
11158.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
自產服務呢他主要的差異會在後面的第13條那因為如果你是金融機構或是適用金融機構的規定的他的罰則比較重那如果你不是第一項或第二項要適用金融機構的處罰規定的你是用第三項第五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
11159.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
11188.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
的這個其他非金融事業的人員好那麼就會進入到不同的處罰的類別啦那這個部分的我想剛剛已經有委員提議好既然事關產業的發展和我們國人好在這個防詐上我們希望杜絕這些漏洞那我們就把這個部分保留那我們在委員會協商的時候我們再進行處理好不好好那我們第第五條我們就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
11190.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
11200.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那接下來大家手上還有一個已經發給大家的附帶決議在哪裡?簽完了嗎?這第幾條?還沒發嗎?請發給大家。就剛剛那個第22條還是24條?22條的附帶決議請大家看一下。發給大家。我這邊也要一份。 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
11222.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
11246.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
等一下主席好來請我們第六條不是可以把好來第六條因為我們第六條因為還在處理我們先把剛剛的第二十二條他比較明確就是屬於告誡的程序的部分有這樣的一個附帶決議那是不是我很快的就宣讀一現行洗錢防制法第十五條之二規定警方對於無正當理由交付提供賬戶賬號者 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
11249.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
11273.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
應與告誡依同條第六項授權執法規定受告誡者帳戶帳號功能受限或停止關閉。三）開執法規定於一一三年三月一日施行因部分受告誡者不按法律程序未能及時提起訴願或物以虛待刑事不起訴處分才能舉證自己並非無正當理由交付提供帳戶帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
11275.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
11302.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
以致於告誡處分確定而帳戶帳號功能受限制為避免此等情形請法務部與內政部警政署針對性質為行政處分之告誡研擬相關救濟程序並加強宣導相關行政救濟程序並於告誡處分書以明顯可知之方式標明相關行政救濟程序及告誡效果於當面交付受告誡者情形得以延遲告知相關程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
11303.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
11303.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
議員郭國文等16人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
11327.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
11338.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
主席因為這個附帶決議我剛剛跟法務部討論了很久他們還是認為說其實他們不可能再做另外一個程序那我們還是希望他們去研議一個可能怎麼樣讓民眾可以救濟雖然這個時間從去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
11342.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
11370.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
通過以後到今年3月1號以前的可能會受到這個影響但是我還是認為說民眾的權益還是要保障雖然只是演繹程序上面我覺得還是要有我們今天這個立場表達我們還是希望說將來不管是任何的行政處分都需要宣導而不是讓人家發生問題之後再跑回來我覺得這才是政府部門可能每一個程序都應該在事先就要做好我們現在只是亡羊補牢而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
11371.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
11389.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好謝謝黃珊珊委員的極力爭取我們一樣的口頭補充我們也是會在我們會議記錄當中會被記載好那麼請問這個附帶結我們就通過了來那我們現在處理下一個我們下一個是有24條因為第6條跟第31條的保留情況是要並同處理我們先看24條20條暫保留當時是提到了台灣民眾黨團的第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
11398.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
11420.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
是否可以大家請參照88頁跟89頁這個第四項有無可能將這個保密義務免責的規定能夠並同其他的打詐專法予以一致性的規範那這個部分目前有可能在這麼短的時間內法務部有辦法做出一個整合的意見嗎還是你們要更長的時間還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
11425.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
11451.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
拜託主席剛才我們是建議會後我們把資料整理好好那那沒關係啦那這主席在這邊證明大家是不是我們這個也保留因為既然剛剛已經有第第五條齁我們保留委員會後再來協商了嘛是不是我們第二十四條也保留做協商好不好可以嗎好那我們二十四條齁我們保留協商齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
11453.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
11458.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好那現在處理第六條跟第31條的部分那法務部這邊剛剛你們討論的結果有什麼樣的看法? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
11467.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
11497.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
對就是落日條款的問題因為我這樣說明一下因為謝謝我們黃委員不斷的提醒那由於呢這個部分是在金管會在財政委員會的部分那法務部會擔心說我們在司法法制委員會在審洗房法的時候那去做出一個決議去要求金管會可能對於財政委員會的執掌上似乎有點不夠尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
11497.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
11517.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
所以這個部分是不是我們今天非常謝謝黃委員特別從財政委員會過來給我們很多的指導那黃委員這個部分是不是我們可以用什麼方法讓未來金管會在財政委員會的部分有辦法透過財委會的要求去形成一個更具體的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
11520.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
11548.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這個主席還有各位同仁我們主要是我在可能很多同仁剛剛才到為什麼我們要提這個法的這個修正的意見就是洗錢防制法他應該規範的是洗錢的行為而不是洗錢的相關的業別的管理監管那我個人覺得金管會非常的偷懶他把他們對於虛擬資產應該做的相關的監管全部塞到洗錢防制法 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
11549.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
11572.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這一條是我認為他們應該要正本清源將來應該要回歸到金管會另外訂立相關虛擬資產管理的專法而不是把因為洗錢防制法不可能去幫金管會管他們這些虛擬業者要怎麼登記怎麼登錄怎麼處罰都不應該是在洗錢防制法裡面但是為了打詐或者是洗房所以我們勉強讓他立了這個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
11576.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
11592.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
把洗錢防制法當成母法讓他盡快的通過來做管理有關洗錢的行為但是我還是認為資產虛擬資產業者的監理跟管理必須要另訂法令但我也同意說司法法制委員會做決議要求金管會的話可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
11592.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
11608.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
他們回去大概才會委員也會很有意見但是這個部分我認為還是應該今天的同仁在現場我希望你們就是將來要針對虛擬專法的草案架構這些都進度都必須要有一定的回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
11609.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11629.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
好至少不管是像財務會報告或者是像司法法治委員會這邊的報告因為你將來這個洗錢防治法主管業還是法務部很奇怪了所以我還是認為說這個部分我希望他有附帶決議如果沒有的話可能他們回去又東西又擺著不敢對 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11631.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11649.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
在決議我們金管會在場的兩位副局長有沒有什麼方法我們因為這也是尊重財政委員會我們今天司法制委員會在審查洗房法的時候做出一個決議要求金管會就財委會督導金管會的業務範圍內關於虛擬資產要如何納管歸管我們怎麼樣去拿捏那個分際有沒有兩位副局長有沒有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11659.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11678.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
謝謝主席謝謝黃委員這邊對我們的鞭策我想我們這回虛心的就講對於說未來這個虛擬資產在怎麼管理我想我們一定會依照委員這邊的指示我們會另外再去跟財委會這邊來報告怎麼樣去對這樣一個新興的產業去做監理這樣子以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11684.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11712.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好 那麼因為我現在主席台這邊有一份擬議那我想我們就很大家請各位看一下在我們司法制委員會可以決定的範圍內做出一個整適度的附帶決議那同時也尊重財委會未來他們在審查相關法案或對於他們的督導機關的要求上不要去侵犯到我們財委會的一個範圍好不好這個擬議請大家看一下請印給大家等個一分鐘就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11713.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11740.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那因為這個部分的如果處理的好我們就第六條跟第三條就處理來請三委員我趁這個主席在處理這個硬的時間大概大概說就我我完全同意黃先生委員剛剛所講的這些內容就有關這個虛擬資產的管理這些確實是金管會應該要做的法令那訂定在洗錢防制法裡面現在看起來就是一個立法上面的便宜形式這是我們先把先把這些相關業別的管理的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11741.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11765.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
其實這些什麼登記登錄等等這些怎麼會是法務部主管那這個未來一定是要回到金管會這我們都完全同意但是我個人跟黃三偉認識不遠我認為如果訂定落日條款就是最最不好的處理方式的因為萬一到時候落日條款實現到了結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11766.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11780.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
禁管會還是沒有做相關的專法訂定那就整個這邊又變成空窗期了所以我是我個人是是也是希望說我們是不是就是今天透過我們等一下看看附帶決議的內容能夠能夠要求經管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11781.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11809.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好那我們很快看一下附帶決議內容有鑒於虛擬資產業者之監理應以專法為之將虛擬資產業者之監理建基於洗錢防制法上有違洗錢防制法之體例為促進我國虛擬資產業界之發展建立虛擬資產業者之監理法之架構原要求經管會針對虛擬資產專法草案之架構內容草案審議進度草案擬具過程每六個月向立法院提出報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11810.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11828.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
制草案提出這個就是這個大家看看文字上看主管機關你們覺得我們也尊重到財政委員會的權責我們自己的司法法政委員的權限你們看一下這裡面就是定期向立法院報告那 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11829.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11851.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
如果也跟先華委員也提議如果說要向立法院提出報告的話恐怕我們這個要送到院會去就是連同我們的法案因為我們如果是要到立法院報告的程式我們就要送院會了今晚會這邊你們看一下這樣內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11856.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11871.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
就是剛剛主席這邊提到的如果說跟立法院報告的話會成績會拉那麼高是不是我們這邊先先先把他改成向立法院財政委員會這樣子那我們設法法這決定請他們向財政委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11875.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11885.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我是建議每六個月鄉立法院相關委員會提出報告,讓他們有一個空間這樣。好,大家看一下鄉立法院相關委員會。然後我也附議一下剛剛發會委員所提的,我基本上支持這個附帶決議,未來用一個專法來處理虛擬資產業者相關的管理監理的事項,然後我們也定定的期程,然後相關委員會我們都可以follow你們的進度。 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11902.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11917.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
所以這樣的話應該是我們未來就是在相關委員會我相信珊珊姐一定在財政會一直push push這樣一直watch你們那所以在那個落日條款的部分確實是應當要去審酌要不要把它放進來啦既然有這樣一個附帶決議來共同來約束來督促的話所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11923.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11943.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
最後那個是不是看黃山委員同不同意最後一個落日的部分來來把他拿掉請教黃委員如果這個附帶決議可以完成的話其實我們目的就是希望你多出他們做專法當然那個落日條款是最強的啦但是如果可以的話我希望這個至少附帶決議要出去好 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11944.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11969.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
來那個吳趙偉我這邊也是支持就有關那個虛擬資產的部分應該是要用專法來處理那我這邊是蠻認同那個黃珊珊委員的想法那其實這一塊不只應該要做應該還是要趕快做因為這已經落後太多那這段時間因為這些虛擬資產無法可管所以在法院判決上面其實有些案子他因為這樣判無罪然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11970.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11997.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
然後那個那個反而造成社會上面的一些風波因為他們不了解說這個判決判無罪的理由其實是源自於我們無法可管那他有時候會去回過頭去認為說是司法在包庇包庇這些那些這些業者或是犯罪犯罪集團所以我還是認為說我蠻支持黃珊珊的那委員的這個想法謝謝好那聽起來各位都蠻認同的那我最後呢主席這邊那個金管會這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
12002.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
12023.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
議長請就是有關於這個就是第一行就是說虛擬資產的監理以專法為之那因為到底要不要專法其實我們也還要再跟司法跟財政委員會委員在多方的溝通這邊如果直接在這邊就把它定成說一定要立專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
12025.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
12039.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
是否定專法?因言義以專法為之。好不好?因言義以...那個第一句有介於虛擬資產業者之監理因言義以專法為之。好不好?好。好啊這樣子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
12040.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
12062.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
再來還有一個人簽名再簽一下好那我們就這樣子先第一行因言義以專法為之因言義再以前面加個言義第二個呢那個剛剛的是每六個月向立法院相關委員會提出報告這第二個修正第三個修正的那個自草案提出又放在 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
12064.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
12090.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
與委端委具比較奇怪我們是不是把他這樣在草案提出前放在那個逗點的後面每六個月向立法院提出相關委員提出報告好不好在草案提出前每六個月向立法院相關委員會提出報告句號那這樣的話就看起來文字上可能比較OK好那這樣他簽了嘛好那這樣就再宣讀一次嗎給大家簽一下給委員會簽名一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
12093.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
12118.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
三位委員因為黃珊珊委員不是本委員委員所以我們要請本委員委員簽名好謝謝謝謝哇我們這個各黨團都簽了謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員特別從財政委員來給我們來這樣就好了那個吳總吳昭偉我這邊再念一次很快的念一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
12120.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
12123.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
好那待會委員要補簽也可以齁來有鑒於虛擬資產業者之監理應延逸以專法為之 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
12134.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
12156.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
並將虛擬資產業者之監理建基於洗錢防制法上有違洗錢防制法之體力為促進我國虛擬資產業界之發展建立虛擬資產業者之監理法之架構原要求金管會針對虛擬資產專法草案之架構內容草案審議進度草案擬具過程在草案提出前每六個月向立法院相關委員會提出報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
12157.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
12175.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好,那提案人就請各位委員來參與。那這個負債決定我們就這樣通過,OK嗎?好,謝謝我們負債提案的修正草案通過。那我們第六條跟第31條是不是我們就照行政...報告主席,那最後面那個自草案提出這幾個字是不是也還保留著? |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
12177.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
12203.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
在草案提出前每6個月每6個月這樣比較好在草案提出前嘛每6個月你就要做嘛如果草案提出就不用了那包括主委包括包主席那個如果是前面的第一行只是研議專法齁那我是不是建議在第四行的地方對於虛擬資產對於研議這邊虛擬資產專法前面是不是再加個研議好不好因為這樣子前後才比較好針對研議虛擬專產對 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
12207.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
12227.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
針對研議是不是對原要求金管會針對研議是不是對好研議好研議加兩個地方齁一個在第一行的因研議以專法為之那在第四行針對研議虛擬資產專法好OK好那麼我們委員同意的話我們就修正後的章案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
12228.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
12250.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好謝謝那接下來呢主席這邊就確認一下是否第六條我們就照行政院提案通過以及第31條也照行政院提案通過好第六條照行政院提案通過沒問題第31條照行政院提案通過好那今天呢我們還有哪一條還沒處理都處理了那個主席不好意思來總召黃總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
12253.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
12263.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我要請行政部門回去看你們行政院院版第19條的規定。請看第72頁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
12278.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
12290.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以我們當然有討論過沒關係請黃總長沒關係因為剛剛我有跟那個三三商量過啊這個跟有關於打詐賺法兩者之間的接軌配合必須要把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
12292.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
12312.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
說就清楚因為在打詐專法裡面針對有關於犯339之事如果是一千萬以上的話他的法定刑其實就已經是三年以上十年以下有期徒刑這個是目前我們看到行政院院板所看出來的結果那 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
12313.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
12326.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
之所以要在處理第19條的規定有兩個層次的問題一個是立法解釋的問題一個是行度調整的問題我們先處理立法解釋的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
12328.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
12353.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我單純的齁我先不處理刑度的問題我們單純的看目前行政院院板洗錢的財務或財產上利益如果超過一億的話你們目前是回到本文就是一上西下的處理嘛好在解釋上洗錢的財務或財產上的利益有沒有達到一億 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
12354.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
12382.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
切割的概念跟切割的時間點指的是什麼因為洗錢它其實是一個不斷接續不斷接續的行為所以你們在這邊有答一億以上跟沒有答一億是透過刑法上面一行為的概念來加以解釋嗎那我為什麼會特別把這件事情講出來是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
12383.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
12397.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
在行政院版的打詐專法裡面我們針對詐欺不法的金額按照不同的金額去設定不同的法定型這樣的立法設計我是贊成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
12398.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
12423.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那同時這也是非常多的被害者團體他們共同的心聲跟訴求不管是我們黨團自己辦的公聽會那或者是說包括了去行政警察局調查局那乃至於在建基金錢改的論壇上面大家所提出來的看法都是這個樣子的但是我要請法務部注意的事情是說在打詐專法裡面對於怎麼樣去計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
12427.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
12432.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
怎麼樣去計算因為在打詐專法裡面你們拉高刑度的門檻是一千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
12433.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
12457.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
在立法理由裡面有說他是針對同一個行為或者是接續那或者是針對不同的被害人他是同一個行為造成多數人受害的時候然後以那個去劃定所謂刑法上面一行為的概念來去作為區分的基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
12458.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
12473.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
但是在你們現在所提出的洗房法裡面在條文裡面當然沒有辦法去做這樣子的設定但是跟在行政院版的打詐專法不一樣的事情是說行政院版的打詐專法對 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
12474.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
12498.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
有沒有超過一千萬的這件事情是如何在定義的在立法理由當中是有說明的但是在你們目前所提出的洗房法當中我先姑且不論那個刑度贊成或者是不贊成因為老實說就刑度的部分跟打詐專法跟打著詐專法就是詐欺得到的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
12499.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
12512.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
提高的刑度跟在這一次洗房法當中你們門檻是一次就放一億嘛然後打造專法是一千萬你拉到一億 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
12513.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
12528.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我必須要老實講論其實際的法定型其實並沒有提高你們事實上是在做法定型往下拉的工作也就是沒有滿一億的話你是用六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑來加以規範那 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
12530.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
12547.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
如果這一次我們針對要有效打擊詐欺犯罪的這一件事情我們在現實上面洗房法所進行的方向是在做刑度的實質減輕是在做刑度的實質減輕而不是加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
12548.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
12574.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
而跟打詐專法那一邊所要進行的立法方向是會按照被害的金額再去加重進行我必須要老實講行政院所提出來的洗房法跟打詐專法針對在面對詐騙以及洗錢前置犯罪跟後續的洗錢行為上面在立法的思維上面跟政策上面完全是背道而馳 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
12575.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
12590.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以這有兩個層次的問題第一個層次的問題是說針對跨越一定的金額今天不管我們把它設定的是一億還是一千萬你們在這邊的解釋是不是跟打詐專法所適用的概念一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
12592.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
12617.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
還是你們所適用的是證券交易法裡面的概念因為證券交易法針對有關於證券詐欺的行為超過一以上的他也有加重期刑的規定你們在計算那個不法的利益的時候你們所用的刑法的概念到底是什麼因為這個一定會去影響到事後法院的裁判也就是你要怎麼去計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
12618.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
12632.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
是好幾個一億以下的行為還是把它看成是一個一億以上的行為這個在法律的適用上會產生非常劇烈的非常劇烈的差別那因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
12633.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
12652.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我理解在法條上面的規範沒有辦法進行這樣子清楚的定義這個大家都理解因為在法律構成要件的設定上的時候本來就含有一定的不確定法律概念在裡面必須要透過解釋跟事後司法的裁判力但無論如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
12654.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12676.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
你們現在心裡面所想的到底是怎麼算是按照洗房法在立法理由當沒有對不起是按照打詐專法在立法理由當中那樣子計算的基準還是按照目前在證券交易法裡面實務上面累積那種計算的基準在立法理由當中可能要把它寫清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12677.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12703.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那第二個就有關於法定型的部分因為在這一次洗房法裡面老師說針對不同被害金額你們在劃分的時候我們看到整個大的趨勢下是刑度的減低跟在打詐專法裡面我們希望被害金額增加的時候是往重的方向去前進兩者之間的方向是不一樣的那因此就這個部分是不是可以請法務部再說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12706.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
12728.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
謝謝黃總召那第19條剛剛我們委員會審議通過但是剛剛黃總召提的的確在法條的競合上那麼金額跟量刑的額度上還有到底是洗錢行為還是詐欺犯罪所得還是證券交易所得等等都有待釐清是不是先請法務部先做一個回應好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
12730.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
12756.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
謝謝主席謝謝黃總召我因為我剛來對於這個過程我不是很清楚那我就我的認知我想一個是前置的特別犯罪一個是洗錢這兩個其實是最直上是不是不一樣的那什麼叫洗錢有可能我拿一本帳戶提供一個帳戶讓人家把錢放進去就已經構成了所以他的range會很大他可能很簡單的一個帳戶跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
12758.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
12772.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我成立一個辦公室顧請很多人專門在幫人家洗錢那規模上是不一樣那條文上對於詐騙或者是只是單純洗錢我們認為在立法上可能就有輕重的區別 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
12773.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12799.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那我的認知,詐騙當然就是比如說一個機房他可能騙很多人那他的金額我們會跟他算在特殊詐騙裡面在洗錢的話因為他不是只有洗炸機他有可能洗賭博他還甚至洗一些毒品交易所以我們在查獲的時候他會去算這些哪些是屬於他特殊犯罪這些加起來一億就一個標準我認知上是應該做這樣的區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12802.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12815.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
沒有沒有我再講的更具體一點齁比如說你在洗錢的機房齁目前在洗錢的行為當中他的金額是不斷的累加上去的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12817.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12846.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
他的金額是不斷地累加上去他會實際到會牽涉到的是說比如說我有三個洗錢的管子到今天當你在破獲的時候就檢察官在起訴的時間點的時候你是直接沒有去追究他刑法上面一行為的概念直接就以破獲的那個時間點累計的金額是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12847.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12863.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
來決定那如果當你後續又破獲了第二個他洗錢的管道的時候那你這個時候是透過追加起訴的方式在變更起訴法條嗎?您懂我的意思嗎?因為在 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12866.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12893.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
呃行法上面一行為的概念跟在行事訴訟法同一事件的概念他會牽涉到的內容還蠻多的會包括到時候一個確定判決他實際上面所會產生的實質確定力他客觀範圍的問題所以我才在說你們在這邊所講的一億你們使用計算的方法是要用像政教法現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12894.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12901.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所已經穩定的因為政交法一樣嘛你如果在資本市場上面去做相對成交 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12902.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12926.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
等等那樣子的一個證券詐欺的行為的時候在那邊所穩定的概念還是你們會去適用現在在打詐專法裡面現在在打詐專法裡面針對到底是一行為接續行為還是同一個被害人沒有同一個行為有多數被害人到底是適用哪一個概念來加以適用因為這個會牽涉到 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12928.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12952.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
當我們在法定型做區別的時候當然法定型的高或者是低你們的設定跟我們希望的設定可能內容上面跟方向上面未必會一致但不管怎麼樣我剛剛所講的第一個層次的問題一定要先決一定要先解決所以我才會請教法務部你們現在針對有沒有到 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12953.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12977.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
確定金額的那個解釋到底是採取什麼樣子解釋的方式當然我理解前置犯罪跟後續的洗錢犯罪他本來就是兩個罪質跟概念都不一樣的犯罪行為嘛所以我們才會另兩個犯罪行為全部都去論處那先不管如果是同一行為人的話他接下來會不會產生裁判上一罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12979.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12980.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
13001.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
13024.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
前面在打債專法的部分我們按照不同的金額去做區別這個我贊成但在打債專法我們按照不同的金額去區別的時候我們是往加重的方向去前進的但在目前有關於洗錢防制法的部分我們就不同的金額去做區別但我們是從減輕的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
13025.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
13050.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
去做前進的這是為什麼我說針對就有關於第20條的部分第19條事實上那個跟我等一下要講的第20條一模一樣因為第20條的部分當初台灣民眾黨我們所提出來的版本針對不同的金額其實我們還是有做類型畫面的區分從第19到第20通通都是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
13051.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
13060.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那而且在方向上面是往加重的方向去做前進的那就這兩個部分是不是可以請法務部再為斟酌好謝謝黃總召現在是我們吳昭偉表示意見來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
13067.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
13090.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
法務部這邊我是覺得本來剛那個黃委員所提到的罪訴論本來就是就是刑總裡面非常難的一個章節啦所以說在前階段的犯罪行為不管是詐欺不管是賭博不管是什麼他切的行為是一行而獲接續跟後面洗洗錢防制這個部分可能確實是銜接上有一點問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
13092.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
13121.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
但是將來實務上面一定會遇到這個問題所以剛剛那個黃委員講的我非常認同啊這東西如果你沒有條文部分我們都沒有意見甚至你說他的設計跟那個打詐專法裡面是用往上加這邊19條他卻是用往下減這邏輯上面不太一樣我覺得這個就算了但是這個可能會造成將來在計算到底在洗洗房洗房法裡面他要適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
13123.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
13129.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
呃以以上或是以以下這個計算上面一定會有問題而且每個檢察官他一定都南轅北轍 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
13130.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
13157.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以說法務部至少你在這個的案例上面你們可能要做出一個統一的說法到底他這個是屬於將來在洗房法上面是一罪一罰還是屬於一個接續犯的概念這你還是要弄清楚否則到時候他檢察官起訴的時候他雖然是同一個條文但是他的做法上面會差距很大我跟你講光是我看這個條文以後我要怎麼適用我頭就很痛 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
13158.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
13179.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
然後會不會造成另外一個狀況就是說有一些檢察官他可能可能他的想法或是他可能有不一樣的就是譬如說他想要幫這個當事人朝比較輕的方向去走的話那他就把他切割認定切割成兩個不同的行為那這樣我們是不是兩個不同行為一算下去就每一個剛好都9900萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
13182.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
13201.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
然後全部都適用六個月以上五年以下的行者會不會造成實務上面有這樣的狀況發生變成說法務部你一定要特別注意這個點而且要有一個統一的做法讓檢察官們能夠能夠遵循啦不然從最速論上面最速論那個那個理論來看這個部分將來會是一個大問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
13202.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
13225.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
好不好就像當年你說連續犯還在的時候到底是連續犯還是一行為這個當年都吵了幾十年的問題了這個在這19條將來一定會有同樣的問題再次發生而且這會變成很多上訴的理由所以我想說這個就會這反而會增加司法上面的一些負擔好謝謝好謝謝吳釗緯的寶貴意見阿是不是黃珊珊委員要再補充請是 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
13226.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
13255.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
謝謝主席我想這個剛剛我們在討論這一條的時候民眾黨的版本其實我們也是希望說朝加重的方向走那剛剛因為市長所說的我也勉強認同也就是說你這樣有一些做一個區隔但是如果從跟原條文比起來其實是實質減輕也就是有關議員以下那這個部分可能我們剛剛我以為是主席我們有要求他把打詐司法拿過來做比對之後再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
13256.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
13272.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
但是可能主席認為說剛剛沒有什麼沒有意見就把它通過了那我還是覺得說如果這個部分可能要跟剛剛講的打詐思考做一個區隔跟比對然後以7年以下有期徒刑然後再1億元以下變成6個月以上5年以下其實事實上剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
13274.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
13302.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
議員郭國文等16人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案案 案 中憲 趙薇 講的也是一樣,可能有很多人就是剛好詐欺到9999萬,那這種狀況的情況可能會有更多人用去這樣規避的方式,然後在實務上可能認知的問題,所以我們的版本是希望說還是朝家中的方向走,那如果今天洗方法是這樣的話,我可能等一下可能趙薇她可能會在黃國昌 趙薇可能會在希望就是到之後再去協商的方式處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
13303.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
13318.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
跟委員說明一下因為剛剛我們的條文是在24條有保留送協商那24條的就是因為跟打詐專法的之間的保密義務的免責的部分我們說要一併處理那至於這一條是第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
13320.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
13334.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
所以我們是照行政院提案通過不過後續由於幾位委員提出來意見我們在協商之前還是可以繼續討論所以未來也還是可以在院會處理之前有任何的修正都可以再度提出是不是可以請委員會我們就先做這樣的處理好那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
13337.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
13364.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
本案逐條均已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完順擬具審查報告提請院會公決那本案須交由黨團協商院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明附帶決議兩項一併提報院會處理條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
13365.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
13372.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
議程所列事項均已處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在三位謝謝大家 |