| IVOD_ID |
159690 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159690 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-19-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-27T10:31:18+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-27T10:48:28+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9008314d583a985e4651e62e9fce1db2a031f25d2de176b75bc6283ac1051a9c2f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳超明 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:31:18 - 10:48:28 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、農業部部長、內政部首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就「鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月26日及27日二天一次會】） |
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主席好首先有請我們農業部副市長我們那個國安會我們彭富職委還有我們內政部國土管理使我們的習副市長好那以上幾位委員長早安早安第一個啦 |
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30.745 |
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51.296 |
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我向你請教一下,那個副市長,你以前住在哪裡?我台南台南、中華還是哪裡?中華,我住鮮華你住過四合院嗎?有啊,我們都三合院,我不是三合院三合院,好,那個彭副主委是 |
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52.196 |
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阿你不讀四合院嗎?我有讀過,因為...還是像現在說的喔,你是建築師,新年快樂快樂...在台東我外公家是三合院阿我們的市副市長,阿你有讀過?我讀了幾年你讀了幾年嗎?幾年...七年啦七年,阿我讀過三合院還是四合院嗎?我為什麼會問這個問題? |
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100.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
其實剛剛我們趙薇講的,我非常肯定,而且很認同,跟我今天問的都是一樣。在村落裡面,以前的人都怕分家、丟面子,結果那期待一直傳下來,多行都沒有辦法解決。所以你要把鄉村的一個提升它的韌性,我告訴你,不是只有吹哨子就行, |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
102.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
107.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
不然大家都在空口講白話講一講 講給農民高興 講給誰高興那都不是做事情的方式我對這個問題 我要來彭斯指揮副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
121.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
147.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
你跟我們的鄉村基路你絕對要往區亂徵收依照那個面積要有多大包括公共設施要重新劃定下來沒有那個路消防車都進不去那個騎腳踏車才能進去這都我們面臨的問題衛生的環境非常差我們就是進步的國家我們一點在鄉村也不進步所以我告訴你第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
148.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
171.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
你要擺變這鄉村肌肉 你就要做一個器官蒸熟料跟這裡的人說 土地換土地你才有辦法成功 這第一步一定要有這樣的想法那我今天為什麼這麼講我們國土事務司長你們一定要配合尤其農業部他非常擔心農運團體講話或外農事長不用怕啦 台灣的土地還要很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
176.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
201.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
你要真的改造農村好就剛剛我講的第一步包括我們稍微講的基建要成立起來第二步我跟你講你現在看到幾個匯六都以外的那個交流道的地區或是中要聯絡的地區都是在鄉村區裡面你要去改變這個觀念現在這些人沒有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
205.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
226.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
小地址大電農 那些都是做人看的一些有這樣的情形底下你應該在交流到那個地方要特別劃幾個地區跟鄉村區互相應用你才有辦法提升鄉村的韌性但是你現在看我們高速公路連絡重要的連絡道路都在農村區都不能動 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
227.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
247.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
等一下你要怎麼活啊?因為交通現在變成人生必須的共進你只要交通方便,大家都會延遇回來還有一點,人往高速跑,水往低速流你交通不便,他要去外國參加,還是要回家 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
249.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
266.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
他只有有賺錢的機會只要生活過得好很多人回來鄉村可以把都市的人口拿過來所以就換了一個大的錯誤都市計畫內的農業道路六都的農業都市計畫農業區都可以改為建築 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
267.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
286.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
鑑定商業用地溫泉跟土地要怎麼維修等一下等一下說講人口不夠哪裡不夠你沒有製造好的環境所以要過來這個要大膽嘗試要大刀剋武我不曉得聽了這幾句話你們鄉村長大你們的感受如何跟我講一下這樣我說的你聽得到嗎有清楚嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
294.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
319.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我沒有選擇,你也跟我說一下,大家不跟我說話,我沒有辦法判斷你這樣有選擇的時候,我都沒有在館裡去做這個沒有,我告訴你,當時你要協調,很多都是在農業部擋掉啦我按外公社委,我們十幾年的民意代表,這個問題常常存在彭副主委、胡處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
321.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
342.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
還有我們的副市長真的要去溝通協調不認輸幾十名沒有一次成功的以前還有農村再生還有地方創生但是這些都是電話死你真的改造農村你一定要想好策略農村改造就像都市的都更一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
343.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
371.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你可以各種狀況去設定如何跟生態配合這樣我們討論想不出來 做得出來我覺得彭副主委這個責任很重大我想你以建築師出身為什麼請你來當副主委這跟地方暢生 農村再生最重要土地的管理是在我們內政部國土管理室這邊所以三個要密切的配合才能把這個達成有沒有信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
372.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
394.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我是很有信心啦我是很有信心,但是...大家一起密切配合,然後...真的要這樣,不然你不可以固定,綁手綁腳不敢大刀剋斧,你農村再...農村提升什麼改造農村都不好真的要用新的思維去做啊在這,國土計畫吧,再給我一下澳門農業縣85% |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
400.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
418.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
四山坡頂 阿堤丘返坡 我在這裡 我要特別跟農業部講你們那時候有一個 那個叫農水的什麼?蓋農社的那個 蓋農社 蓋農社 農村局農田水 水保署啦不是不是 農水署不是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
418.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
420.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
蓋農社的鄉鎮啦 那不是你們在說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
431.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
455.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
農事的興建是我們去補啦,去補沒有啦,那是我們農業部裡面去補那是我們補喔,那是資源永續利用,那是我們發明啦不是資源永續利用,我現在在總科我看一看苗栗縣85%的三坡林,我們一塊地三千坪挖你們台北市的一公尺,十坪挖不去你說有比例嗎?這有公平嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
459.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
466.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我覺得六都的市長也沒有什麼好他靠土地變更來賺錢的他一變更的話幾十億 幾十億的收入 那多好我們的鄉村其實叫做廢六 六都叫鄉村區 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
474.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
492.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我常常在想苗栗縣的地方環境比較特殊,它是低區環坡,我一直在講。您好,我來做。成為一個低區環坡示範區,你看到美國高級社區的話,都是在低區環坡裡面這樣做出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
494.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
510.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你看鄉長澤就是在這樣地區環波做出來現在在山頂沒水、沒工人、沒人去做事一片荒蕪在那一邊你給人家報仇說怕農運團體抗爭沒水夠人家、沒米人家我們糧食生產過剩現在赤貢山頂沒人要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
518.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
546.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以我在苗栗縣一直要推遲一個地區環保但是我發現本市長這裏有一條農舍用地應既行配置以農地之地界線及臨界道路那是北京的農舍改善你山坡地怎麼可以這樣規範再來要兼備叫人改善但特殊地形者中央並沒有定義什麼叫做特殊地形者 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
547.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
568.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你來新的本領要帶動啦人把人已經地球環保做到很好地了外國都用地球環保是補貼捏你居然限制我們農民使用現在沒人敢,你越搞越晚還有農民耕種,還要種什麼食材要種,那都好笑,我要剪得漂亮高單價的東西不可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
571.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
586.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那當然可以啊可以啊 你們都整天在嘻嘻 只叫我們講漢字只叫我們不是啦市長我不是跟你計較啦 我已經摸了很多了嘛我一直在強調這一點 你們給我定義清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
588.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
613.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們地方來頂頂自治法規我一家五十個一百個我有地方去開路水保都做得好你現在不用怕大家煩惱水保的問題自己的房子自己蓋水保它比誰還更重視你們都沒有煩惱一下排水系統都給你做得很好啊你為什麼這樣懷疑百姓感覺你們政府在搞限制啊你不要怕農營團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
615.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
626.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
現在農民整個財產都沒有你限制到多少錢我是很良心真心的講我現在農業部這一條我還未再圖出來你那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
630.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
659.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
農村農舍的興建尤其我們地區環坡我帶你去看真的很漂亮尤其苗栗特殊台北下來40分鐘就到苗栗30分鐘到每個地方去這個是最好失散人口的地區像我天天搭高鐵上來又回去很近你老爸用這個觀念你用全國統一的一個思想每一個地方的地理環境不一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
661.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
669.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
董事長三坡地的這些我真的領工農村改造這個都要改變公民路來都沒錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
671.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
690.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
的確應該要因地制宜啦因為委員這苗栗比較多是散春嘛所以那個村落的狀態跟南部比如說那個昭偉這邊他們嘉義這邊就比較集村所以跟昭偉講給我多講一點他那邊也有那個地球環坡的山坡的地方你那邊是甚麼來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
695.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
722.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你還憑什麼跟我闖瘓我現在說三句那邊但是這個我一定要改進我希望農業部要支持也希望國土署你們要喊我到岸就靠近路邊就要計算方針你整天都在想什麼我跟你講這個改造成功你要種什麼食材水果大家種的一定會變成農工隊出來把你地方弄得很漂亮 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
723.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
735.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你們如果要跟我說要叫你們做,你們怕農運團裡面嗎?那些都沒有種田的人在講話,哪比在組織種田的?你們這個政府真的要改進,你剛才這個看法怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
739.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
751.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
現在國土計畫法是各縣市政府按照地方的發展需求每五年可以同盤檢討那如果認為有必要的話可以去做相關的規劃因為我們地球環保障85%你來看就很漂亮 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
755.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
782.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
真的很漂亮你去的話 你想說在苗栗圍長好 到台北 到台中都會很近台灣就在掃紙化 去一個飯櫥 要賣什麼啊還是要做白粽子那個退休的地方 人家有錢人家要賣什麼 要賣什麼人在那邊端著豆豉的 讓給年輕人我們老老在這邊 要看身子坐著高鐵上去所以這就跟觀念大家不一樣要賣什麼人我們要想的我們要站在 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
784.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
796.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
國土長治久安的立場你國土長治久安你把山坡定給都市人禮拜一到禮拜五登峰久定他們在賺錢他們在台北 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
799.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
827.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你把我鄉下禮拜六禮拜天給他們去散步看青山綠水啊我們得到什麼有啦 休閒農業你休閒農業 唉唷你輸不出錢啦這也是一種風險我們做散步地不可以搞得這樣適度的開花這涉及到國土保安啦這國家的國土保安的話不差這一塊啦我講真的啦環境會比原來保持得更好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
828.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
841.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你怎麼常常在國土保安我們要站在公平正義啦我這就叫做公平正義嘛我告訴你都市 都市內的農業區一直在改變 變更為自在區 商業區他們在賺錢 其他人要做農奴 去整理 整齊 再讓人家吃飯你為什麼不用這樣反悔 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
854.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
875.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
一個市委去判斷你都在顧主席人欸不然你整個越來越丟臉 越丟臉我主席管不了啦 抱歉你主席管不了 我跟你說怎麼整個衝就好了啦不然你這個保證叫我來做啦我真的講 觀念的市委要改變嘛我現在跟你說我們已經受到不公平的待遇了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
883.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
910.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
啊你怎麼說這樣社會要公平啊就是不叫他農地都不要跟我辯農興都還好嗎那以前農地他現在怎麼可以變為自宅區、商業區去獨立、去暴力為什麼環境會差得那麼多為什麼會少數化所以我今天講你這個觀念沒辯鎂大家平等普通我只在問一句話你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
913.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
926.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
六都裡面的都市計畫類的農業區為什麼每一個人都在變不是天之教主啊我們都不是六都要人不是都市的農業區都要變 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
928.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
956.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
沒有,都市計畫地區如果是農業區要變,也有相關的規範我展要有相關的規範,你跟我講都在變我現在跟你講公平勝利嘛一樣的你幫我留下來重點,什麼都不能變大家公平你如果讓我這樣思維在講話我意思很不滿這一點所謂的鄉村區我現在跟你證明就是揮六度叫做鄉村區 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
958.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
980.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你們都偏向有選票六都越多的地方你們越重視你們哪裡在關心鄉村區關心灰六都的我這個一定堅持這個是叫做不公平聲音國土保安大家都會去做一樣的國土保安六都跟灰六都的都要一樣你們只顧他們賺錢你為什麼要整個人都不顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
987.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1001.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
怎么他们可以变我们都不能变连速度的利用都不可以还有一个是现在都市的环境会高把这一个开放出来自然的环境就降低了 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1003.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1030.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
臺灣不要那麼多米以前你糧食生產過剩了天天再講糧食安全以前的觀念帶來現在現在的糧食你們藝人成名多少你們外銷虧損多少你拿去你去做那個照明做了多少這個觀念要改啊不可以這樣稀稀地啊好不好 謝謝好我給你兩杯 |
| gazette.lineno |
434 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
陳委員超明：（10時31分）主席好。首先有請農業部胡次長、國發會彭副主委，還有內政部國土管理署徐副署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：好，請以上幾位。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
彭副主任委員立沛：委員早安。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
陳委員超明：早安。第一個要請教胡次長，你以前住在哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
胡次長忠一：委員是問我的故鄉？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
陳委員超明：小時候。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
胡次長忠一：臺南。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
陳委員超明：臺南鄉下還是都市？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
胡次長忠一：鄉下，我住善化。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
陳委員超明：你住過四合院嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
胡次長忠一：我家是三合院，不是四合院。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
陳委員超明：好，三合院。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][1] |
彭副主委，你住過四合院嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
彭副主任委員立沛：我住過，因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳委員超明：是不是真的要說喔！你是建築師出身…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
彭副主任委員立沛：臺東我外公家是三合院。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
陳委員超明：徐副署長呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
徐副署長燕興：我住基隆。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
陳委員超明：你是住在都市的嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
徐副署長燕興：基隆旁邊的七堵。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
陳委員超明：喔，七堵。那你住過三合院或四合院嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][1] |
我為什麼會問這個問題？其實剛剛我們召委講的我非常肯定，而且很認同，跟我今天要問的都一樣。在村落裡面，以前的人都怕分家會丟面子，結果幾代一直傳下來，根本都沒辦法解決。所以你要提升鄉村韌性不是嘴巴說說就好，就像召委說的，大家都在空口說白話，說來讓農民高興或是誰高興，其實那都不是做事的方法。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][2] |
針對這個問題，我要請教彭副主委和胡次長，第一，舊有的鄉村聚落絕對要用區段徵收，依照所需面積大小，包括公共設施都要重新劃定，不然道路太窄，消防車都進不去，騎腳踏車才能進去，這些都是我們面臨的問題，包括衛生環境非常差。我們說自己是進步的國家，在鄉村卻一點也不進步。所以我跟你說，第一點，要改變鄉村聚落就是要區段徵收，跟這些人說，土地換土地，你才有辦法成功。這是第一步，一定要有這樣的想法。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][3] |
我今天為什麼這麼講？國土管理署徐副署長，你們一定要配合，尤其農業部非常擔心農運團體講話，說農村怎樣、怎樣，不用怕啦！臺灣的土地很多，你要真的改造農村、為農村好，我剛剛講的就是第一步。包括召委講的基金要處理起來。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][4] |
第二步，我跟你講，你現在看到幾個非六都的交流道地區或是重要聯絡道路的地區都是在鄉村區裡面，你要去改變這個觀念。現在務農的人又不多，小地主、大佃農，務農都是做給人家看的！已經有一些這樣的情形了。你應該在交流道一帶特別劃幾個地區，跟鄉村區互相運用，才有辦法提升鄉村的韌性。但是現在高速公路、重要的聯絡道路都在農村區、都不能動，這樣要怎麼活化？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][5] |
因為交通已經變成人生必需的工具，只要交通方便，大家都願意回來。還有一點，大家都說「人往高處爬、水往低處流」，只要交通方便，不管他要去外面工作還是要返鄉，只要有賺錢的機會、只要生活過得好，還是有很多人願意回來鄉村，這樣就可以疏散都市的人口。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][6] |
所以你們犯了一個大的錯誤，都市計畫內的農業道路、六都的都市計畫農業區都可以改為建地或商業用地，我們鄉下的土地為什麼要死在那裡！等一下又講人口不夠，哪裡不夠？你沒有製造好的環境，誰要過來？這個要大膽嘗試、要大刀闊斧！你們幾位在鄉村長大，不曉得你們聽到這幾句話的感受如何？請跟我講一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][7] |
我講的你們聽得懂嗎？清楚嗎？清不清楚也要跟我講一下啊！為什麼大家都不敢講話？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝委員、謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
陳委員超明：我又沒那麼兇！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
胡次長忠一：委員講的有清楚，但是農業部無權去做這些，這是內政部的權限。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
陳委員超明：但是你要協調，很多都是在農業部被擋掉的。我為什麼會說這些話？我當了十幾年的民意代表，知道這個問題常常存在。彭副主委、胡次長，還有徐副署長，你們真的要去溝通、協調，不然你們做了幾十年，沒有一次是成功的！以前有農村再生，還有地方創生，但是做的都是蜻蜓點水，真的要改造農村，一定要想好策略。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][1] |
農村改造就像都市的都更一樣，有各種狀況可以設定。如何跟生態配合？這用頭腦就想得出來、做得出來。這件事我覺得彭副主委的責任很重大，你是建築師出身，為什麼請你來當副主委，這對地方創生、農村再生至關重要，土地的管理是在內政部國土管理署這邊，所以你們3個要密切配合才能把這個目標達成。有沒有信心？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
彭副主任委員立沛：我是很有信心，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
陳委員超明：我提的方案你覺得可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
彭副主任委員立沛：大家一起密切配合，然後…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
陳委員超明：真的要這樣，不然你們像過去綁手綁腳，不敢大刀闊斧，再怎麼說要提升農村、改造農村都沒有用！真的要用新的思維去做。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][1] |
接下來是有關國土計畫法的部分，我們苗栗縣85%是山坡地，低丘緩坡，我在此要特別告訴農業部，你們以前有一個叫做農舍的什麼？蓋農舍的那個。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
胡次長忠一：那是農村及農田水利，水保署啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
陳委員超明：不是、不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
胡次長忠一：不是農水署嗎？以前是…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
陳委員超明：農舍的興建啦！那不是你們在說的嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
胡次長忠一：農舍興建是我們的水保…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
陳委員超明：沒有啦，那也是農業部管的。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
胡次長忠一：有一個資源永續利用，這是管法令。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
陳委員超明：不是資源永續利用。我在鄉下看到，苗栗縣有85%的山坡地，我們1甲地（大約3,000坪）換你們臺北市一間房子的10坪都換不起，你說是不是很悲哀？這樣公平嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
胡次長忠一：這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
陳委員超明：我覺得六都的市長也沒有什麼好的，他是靠土地變更來賺錢，一變更就有幾十億、幾十億的收入，那樣叫好嗎？我們鄉村區就是非六都才叫做鄉村區！我常常在想，苗栗縣的地方環境比較特殊，它是低丘緩坡，你就讓我們成為一個低丘緩坡示範區。你看美國的高級社區都是在低丘緩坡的地方開發出來的，日本的輕井澤也是在這樣低丘緩坡的地方開發出來的。現在山上沒水、沒工人，也沒人務農，一片荒蕪，你們只有抱守，就怕農運團體抗爭，說會沒水果可吃、沒米可吃，我們糧食生產過剩，現在缺工，山上沒人要去做，所以我在苗栗縣一直要推低丘緩坡，但是被你們的法令綁死了，裡面有一條農舍用地應矩形配置於農業用地之地界線側及臨接道路。那是平地的農舍才可以，山坡地怎麼可以這樣規範？再來，每次要請你們解釋「但特殊地形者」，中央並沒有定義什麼叫做特殊地形者，你們應該要改變觀念，別人低丘緩坡已經做得很好，外國都用低丘緩坡，是個寶地，你竟然限制我們農民使用。現在你們越來越嚴格，還要農民耕種，還要種什麼蔬菜又種什麼，那都是吹牛，我要種漂亮的、高單價的東西，不可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
胡次長忠一：當然可以啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
陳委員超明：可以？你們規定得死死的，只會叫我們種蕃薯。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
胡次長忠一：但是如果蓋房子、如果是農…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
陳委員超明：不是啦！次長，我不是跟你計較，我已經摸了很多了嘛！我一直在強調這一點，你們給我定義清楚，我們地方來訂定自治法規，一次50甲、100甲，讓地方去開路，把水保都做好，你現在不用怕大家擔心水保的問題，自己的房子自己蓋，他比誰都還更重視水保，你們都不用擔心這些，排水系統都幫你做得好好的，你為什麼這樣懷疑百姓？好像你們政府在限制我們，你不要怕農運團體，現在農民整個財產都沒有，你限制得這麼多！我是很良心、真心的講，現在農業部這一條，我還會再提出來，農村農舍的興建，尤其我們低丘緩坡，我帶你去看，真的很漂亮，尤其苗栗特殊，臺北下來40分鐘就到苗栗，30分鐘就能夠到每個地方去，這是最好疏散人口的地區，像我天天搭高鐵上來又回去，很近。你怎麼不用這個觀念？你用全國統一的一個思想，每一個地方的地理環境不一樣。彭副主委，山坡地的這些，你光農村改造，這個都要改變。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
彭副主任委員立沛：是。的確…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
陳委員超明：農民越來越沒有錢。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
彭副主任委員立沛：對，的確應該要因地制宜，因為委員苗栗這邊比較多是散村，所以那個村落的狀態跟南部，譬如召委這邊，他們嘉義這邊就比較集村，所以村落的方式不一樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
陳委員超明：所以跟召委講，給我多講一點，他那邊也有低丘緩坡山坡的地方。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
彭副主任委員立沛：也有，他比較有山坡地，那邊也有。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
陳委員超明：你是海邊還是山裡面？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
主席：我是海邊。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
陳委員超明：你是海邊，和我一樣的。我現在說山裡面那邊，但是這個我一定要改進，我希望農業部要支持，也希望國土署不要給我限制那麼嚴格，要靠近路邊、要矩形的方式，你們規定得這麼多要做什麼？我跟你講，這個改造成功，你要種什麼蔬菜、水果，大家種了，一定會變成農耕隊出來，把地方弄得很漂亮。你們大家上次跟我說好，要叫你們做，你們怕農運團體罵，那都是沒有種田的人在講話，拿筆在指揮種田的，你們這個政府真的要改進，你對我這個看法覺得怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
胡次長忠一：這個是這樣，現在如果國土計畫法是各縣市政府按照地方的發展需求，每5年可以通盤檢討，如果他們認為有必要，他們可以去做相關的規劃。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
陳委員超明：因為我們低丘緩坡現在是占85%，你來看，很漂亮，真的很漂亮，但是你去的話，你會想在苗栗非常好，到臺北到臺中都很近。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
胡次長忠一：但是是這樣啦！農地不要蓋，結果蓋得一大片，臺灣就在少子化，蓋那麼多房子要賣給誰，還是要做別墅？那個…… |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
陳委員超明：退休下來，人家是有錢人，說什麼要賣給誰？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
胡次長忠一：那沒有道理啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
陳委員超明：那些老的人住在都市，讓給年輕人，老的人在這邊，要看孫子時，坐著高鐵上去，所以這就是大家的觀念不一樣，要賣給什麼人？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
胡次長忠一：我們要站在國土長治久安的立場，不能…… |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
陳委員超明：國土長治久安？你把山坡地給都市人，禮拜一到禮拜五燈紅酒綠，他們在賺錢，他們在臺北，禮拜六、禮拜天我們鄉下，你讓他們去散步，看青山綠水，我們得到什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
胡次長忠一：有啦，休閒農業…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
陳委員超明：休閒農業？你的思維要改啦，這也是一種方式，怎麼樣山坡地不能這樣適度的開發？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
胡次長忠一：委員，這涉及到國土保安，這國家的…… |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
陳委員超明：國土保安不差這一塊，我講真的，環境會比原來保持得更好啊！你怎麼常常提到國土保安？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
胡次長忠一：我們要站在公平正義的立場，國家的公平正義…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
陳委員超明：我這個就叫做公平正義嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
胡次長忠一：你個人的，當然…… |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
陳委員超明：不然你告訴我，六都都市內的農業區一直在改變，變更為住宅區、商業區，他們在賺錢，其他人要做農奴，去種米、種水果來給都市人吃？你為什麼不用這樣一個思維去判斷？你們都在顧都市人，難怪鄉下越來越凋零、越沒落。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
胡次長忠一：沒有啦！都市我管不到啦，不好意思，我是只管農業。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
陳委員超明：你管不到都市，我是跟你說怎麼樣把鄉下做好啦，不然你這個部長讓我來做啦！我真的講，觀念的思維要改變嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
胡次長忠一：我知道要改變，但是有時候社會公平正義跟國家子孫，要替子孫想。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
陳委員超明：我現在跟你說，我們已經受到不公正的待遇了，你怎麼說這樣社會要公平啊？不然叫都市那些農地都不要改變，都還回來，好不好？以前的農地現在怎麼可以變為住宅區、商業區，去圖利、去暴利？為什麼房價會差了那麼多、為什麼會少子化？所以我今天講，你這個觀念不變不行，大家平等，我只再問你一句話，六都裡面都市計畫內的農業區，為什麼每一個人都在變？這樣不是天之驕子嗎？我們不是六都的人、不是都市的農業區，都不能變？ |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
徐副署長燕興：沒有，都市計畫地區，如果是農業區要變，也有相關的規範。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
陳委員超明：我知道有相關的規範…… |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
徐副署長燕興：不是都在變…… |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
陳委員超明：我現在跟你說公平正義嘛！一樣的，你幫我留下來是重點，什麼都不能變，大家要公平，你怎麼可以用這樣思維在講話？我一直很不滿這一點，所謂的鄉村區，我現在跟你指名，就是非六都的叫做鄉村區，你們都偏向有選票的六都，越多的地方，你們越重視，你們哪裡在關心鄉村區、關心非六都的？我這個一定堅持，這個是叫做不公平正義。國土保安，大家都會去做，一樣的國土保安，六都跟非六都都要一樣。你們只顧著他們賺錢，你有想到那些鄉下人有多難過嗎？怎麼他們可以變，我們都不能變，連適度的利用都不可以？還有一個思維，現在都市的房價會高，把這一些開放出來，自然房價就降低了，臺灣不用那麼多米，已經糧食生產過剩了，天天在講糧食安全，把以前的觀念帶來現在，現在的糧食，你們一年存餘多少、你們外銷虧損多少？你拿去做了多少糙米…… |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
主席：好，陳委員，已經超過10分鐘了。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
陳委員超明：真的觀念要改，不要這樣死死的，好不好？謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
主席：好，我給你兩倍的時間，感謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][1] |
下一位請賴瑞隆委員質詢，賴委員質詢後，我們是不是休息10分鐘，讓官員休息一下？好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
418 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-3-19-5 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
廖先翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
369 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-03-27 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1143201 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1143201_00007 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、農業部部長、內政部首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就
「鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向」進行報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1143201_00006 |