| IVOD_ID |
15965 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15965 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
28 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-30T08:30:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-30T11:59:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:28:30 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc1dc129ce818bd32890a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be4f24a40d699ade6fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:30 - 11:59:00 |
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好不好意思那我們現在開始開會報告委員會出席委員8人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年5月29日星期三上午9時4分至11時31分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃委員國昌等12人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2085.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2106.962 |
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列席委員賴文、世保等8人．列席官員．司法院秘書長吳三龍等人．主席吳昭吉委員鍾憲報告是向一宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二、邀請司法院秘書長．法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就強化社會安全網暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2108.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2128.719 |
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機構場域安全之檢討進行專題報告．並備質詢本次會委員黃國昌等10人提出質詢委員翁曉琳提出書面質詢決定一報告集詢答完畢二委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關緊速送交個別委員及本會通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2135.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2149.054 |
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請問上次會議的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話會議議事錄確定接著我們介紹道場委員跟議事錄列席官員黃國昌委員謝榮介委員 |
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2153.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2173.584 |
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接著我們介紹應邀列席官員司法院秘書長吳三龍秘書長法務部徐錫祥政次、小政署長周輝煌部長他9點到11點因為另有要務有向我請假我這邊有主席這邊有同意所以11點以後部長會到會 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2177.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2195.058 |
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其餘未介紹的列席代表請參院名單不再一一介紹並列入公報記錄本次議程我們邀請司法院秘書長、法務部長、衛福部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就《鐵窗裡的少年》 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2196.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2198.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
現在進行報告發言時間5分鐘請司法院吳秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2228.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2246.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士本人僅代表司法院就本日的專題鐵窗裡的少年如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸． |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2255.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2274.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
並完備社會安全網進行專題報告如下有提出比較詳細的書面因為時間有限我則要報告如下進行主教第一項是建制復選少年行政輔導先行機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2278.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2293.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
108年修正的少年事件處理法增訂第18條有關暴險少年行政輔導先行新制那定在112年7月11日施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2296.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2309.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那麼少年由少年事件法第3條各幕的這個暴險行為會先由縣市政府少年輔導委員會那麼結合相關資源那麼對暴險少年施以適當期間的輔導那麼經評估任由 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2320.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2343.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
《少年法院處理使能保障少年健全之自我成長》就請求少年法院來處理本院在新制的籌備期間有跟行政院有密切配合訂定發布少年輔導委員會設置及輔導實施辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2351.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2366.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
陸系也有跟行政院來召開兩院的協商平台就這方面的制度如何來落實都有密切聯繫跟合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2368.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2387.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那麼第二項是依照少年事件處理法第42條第5項第6項的規定建立支援聯繫執行整合會議機制那麼按照修正的少年事件處理法那麼增訂第12條第5項第6項 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2391.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2399.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
明定少年法院為該條第一項裁定之前認為必要時得徵行適當之機關、學校等召開相關的會議來為適當處理在110年有訂定發布少年法院與相關機關處理少年事件聯繫辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2420.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2431.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
就參照這些新增的規定來建立司法與行政之間在少年合作協力的聯繫機制這一段期間都有陸續來召開相關的協調、諸行、整合會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2442.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2462.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
司法院跟行政院之間平台會議也從110年開始定期都有召開來會議最近一次是在今年的3月12日也就一些政策性的議題來進行演繹協商第三項是少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2463.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2479.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
保護管事風險管理事辦的這些計畫為了要強化保護管事執行效能還有相關行政機關聯繫機制建立更完善的社會安全網所以從 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2481.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2507.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
113年開始就陸續在6個直轄市所屬的基礎少年法院法庭來辦理相關的保護管制風險管理計畫那也在近日也推廣到全國來試辦讓它能夠更緊密的來符合相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2509.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2531.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第四項是定定少年矯正計畫特殊事件的通報應應措施為了要完備少年在矯正學校執行感化期間的保護措施提升相關的輔導機制以及網絡單位合作的效能所以就制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2532.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2552.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
地方法院應應矯正學校特殊事件的參考措施按照這些參考措施讓這項工作能夠來更完善第五項是提升法院少年調查官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2554.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2555.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
第6項是關於少年調查保護官及輔治人力的增補計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2575.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2596.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
新北校園暴力事件不幸事件發生之後突顯在法院調查保護官這一方面調查保護是人力的不足我們也要去應應如何來精進少年保護執行的效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2598.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2625.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
本院也將陸續補職相關的少年調查保護官、心理測驗員以及心理輔導員這些相關的缺額能夠逐步來強化有關的調查保護人力以上報告 敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝秘書長那接下來我們請法務部徐次長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2634.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2657.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就《鐵窗裡的少年如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網》代表本部列席報告並被質詢深感榮幸之就專案內容重點報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2659.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2683.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
報告如下一、為提升少年矯正學校學生之輔導處遇矯正署已經建立個案評估報告在學生入校後一個月內根據個人特性分析、教育及輔導需求提供個別適性輔導第二、引進學生三級輔導機制一級為廣泛普遍性的輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2687.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2696.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
二級是結合個案需求提供適性輔導三級則是針對特殊學生強化各項協助並由教師與新輔人員組成教輔小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2700.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2722.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
每月定期召開會議,討論學生學習及適應狀況。第三,強化專業輔導人力。除定期舉辦研習或外部受訓課程,目前各校編制之輔導教師比為1比25,心理師及社公司人力比為1比23, |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2724.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2740.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
將於114年持續請增18名輔導人力與矯正學校令特教師之以1比21師生比為目標聘任。2.強化再犯預防透過持續強化輔導量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2742.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2763.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
1.以教育部108年課綱為架構安排學業,運用多元處域如計職訓練、家庭教育及生涯輔導規劃,降低出校後再度犯罪可能。2.落實社區轉銜,學生出校前結合教育部、衛福部及勞動部等單位, |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2764.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2780.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
召開轉弦會議．使學生出校後順利回歸校園、就業或至相關社福照護單位．獲得妥適保護。第四．促進社會復歸．學校輔導教師與社政單位、社公司會 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2782.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2795.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
共同持續追蹤少年出校後一年動向如意特殊情況將適時轉介至相關輔導單位避免少年因未有銜接保護單位而再度進入司法體系。5.結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2798.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2816.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
矯正學校自學校入校後提供適性之處遇措施必使有限資源效益最大化並與學生出校前媒合相關網絡單位資源及以協力方式執行出校轉銜並與學生出校後持續追蹤一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2819.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2841.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
必穩固學生復歸社區家庭之狀況本部將持續益助資源提升專業輔導人力強化跨部會的合作模式與各界全力協助司法少年回歸家庭與學校與完善社會安全之保護網以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教好 謝謝市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2846.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2869.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
其餘機關報告請參閱書面．機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答本會詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2880.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2903.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
謝謝主席馬上有請司法院秘書長麻煩秘書長委員早安秘書長早我們延續昨天因為時間不夠沒有處理完的問題這件事情非常的重要因為牽涉到了審判的獨立跟法定法官原則的界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2904.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2920.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
之前曾經請教過秘書長行事訴訟法在陳審的個案當中我們有依照法律應該自行迴避也有當事人申請迴避的事由但沒有一種是上級的長官施壓迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2922.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2934.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那針對這個金融重犯中文字他炒作TDR遭重判十幾年的這個案子在過程當中我收到檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2935.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2963.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個中文字阿非常的囂張阿不僅去找立法委員幫他脫罪提個案式的修法甚至在個案當中還有法官上級的法官去施壓陳神的法官要他上千迴避這件事情我公開提出質詢以後高等法院當天喔當天喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2965.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2993.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
就發一個澄清新聞稿說純屬誤會我看完他們的新聞稿以後我老實講我是不知道我有哪裡誤會那接下來司法法制委員會在這邊也通過了臨時提案讓司法院回去做調查報告昨天我們討論到了說你們調查報告的結果出來我們先來看看被施壓的法官他是怎麼說的被施壓的法官說 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2994.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3012.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
紅庭長跟我說他跟李院長討論過了李院長指示我要上千自請迴避被施要的法官被指示要上千自請迴避然後被施要的法官說他感到錯愕 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3013.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3033.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
已經跟他的庭長表示這個案子當事人有申請迴避那申請迴避也被駁回了他抗告最高法院也被駁回確定了結果紅庭長還是跟他講你上個簽就對了秘書長可以這樣做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3035.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3040.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我先等一下啦我們昨天就討論到這裡嘛是出於關心個人主觀的動機是什麼那是另外一回事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3065.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3076.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我現在的問題是上級的法官可以要陳審的法官要求他自請迴避嗎?可以做這件事嗎?在法規上可以做這件事嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3078.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3097.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因為昨天有向委員說明就是根據當時的台灣高等法院分案實施要點第10點第4款那麼這個是台灣高等法院法官會議就法官有應自行迴避事由之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3098.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3122.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那麼其他可能有偏頗之餘的情形啊那麼事先以抽象規定得由院長酌情准許法官簽請回覓等一下喔秘書長你講到高等法院的分案要點我又是法律人了要把法條講清楚啊因為你剛剛對那個法條的描述 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3123.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3136.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
根本不正確為什麼我說不正確你說按照第10點第4款來我們來看一下第10點第4款法官與當事人申請迴避經裁定駁回後 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3137.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3159.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
自行簽請迴避均不予准許但情況特殊得由院長酌情准許請問一下第4條第4款是法官自行簽請還是上面可以要求他上簽這個根據我們本院綜合 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3160.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3189.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
中和這個判斷我現在在講的你剛剛援引第4點第4款嘛我們就依法論法先不要講你們事實認定的部分啦回來這個法條啊剛剛我就說了嘛上級的院長、行政廷長可以幹這件事嗎然後你提到了高等法院他們分案要點的第10點第4款嘛我把第10點第4款現在秀在PPT上給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3190.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3206.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我請教的問題是這個是由陳審的法官自行簽起還是上級法官要求上簽這個法規的規範內容是什麼請教秘書長這個根據本院就這個法規的解讀阿吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3207.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3208.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
沒有喔 你把前面的要件搞混了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3228.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3239.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我再唸一次法關於當事人申請迴避經裁定駁回後自行簽請迴避均不予准許你有看到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3240.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3264.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
你要先看本文啊這個那我向委員說明就是本院的解讀齁是認為這個是事先以抽象規定齁得由院長酌情准許法官簽請對啊得由院長酌情准許的前提是什麼是不是法官自行簽請那本院的解讀就有向剛剛委員說明就我們在書面報告也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3266.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3268.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
現在這個條文院長要准許的前提是法官他要簽請 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3279.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3300.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我現在的問題就來了他的前提不是要法官自行簽請嗎這個條文有授權院長可以指示提行政庭長去要求法官上簽嗎這麼簡單的法律問題你可以在這邊繞這麼久這個是本院在這個報告說明這個第二點裡面有說明就是就這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3303.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3330.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
這個臺灣高等法院分案實施要點這個第10點第4款這個規定我們有把它列出來那麼我們的解讀是認為這個是法官會議那麼這個就這個法官有因自行迴避事由之外那麼其他可能有偏頗之意的情形那麼事先以抽象規定得由院長酌情審洗法官遷請迴避對不起喔秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3332.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3359.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我在這邊就真的要把你打斷了你一直念一樣的稿完全不願意面對我的問題來予以回答我連法規寫在上面白紙黑字寫得這麼清楚我一直問你第10點第4款是法官自行簽請上去還是院長可以要求他上簽連這麼關鍵而基本的問題你都不願意正面迴避喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3360.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3386.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
在這個個案當中我直接跟秘書長講你們為了一個個案扭曲整個法律的解釋這是為什麼我一直講這件事情知識體大不是只是關心這個個案為了一個個案司法院可以針對有關於第4點第4款做這樣扭曲的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3388.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3405.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
秘書長我無法同意沒有關係啊我們今天在這邊的詢答第10點第4款法規怎麼解釋的法規怎麼規定應該要怎麼解釋我今天在這邊提出的問題全國法官都可以公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3406.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3429.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
你所提出來的回答也必須要接受所有法官的檢驗我們的司法院如果對第10點第4款是這樣解釋的話對不起啊以後事情大條啦所有的院長、庭長大家都可以筆覆援引因為我們司法院的秘書長這樣告訴全國的法官啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3430.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3442.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
第10點第4款可以這樣解釋啊以後院長、行政廷長都可以下去關心啊告訴陳神的法官啊你是不是要上千字請迴避啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3444.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3461.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
秘書長我再跟你講一次齁針對您今天這樣的回答我沒有辦法同意當然每個人有不同的法律見解我的看法跟你的看法針對這件事情這個條款的解釋要接受全國法官的公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3462.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3489.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
連你們自己的調查報告都承認是要求他上簽了要求他上簽了從頭到尾就不是第10點第4款那個法官自己上簽自己上簽以後院長例外的准許他可以迴避我有說錯嗎秘書長因為向委員說明我們在這個第三點三之一、三之二裡面都有提到因為當時這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3499.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3514.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這個在申請迴避的事由法院不是都裁定過了嗎最高法院都維持了不用迴避的見解阿現在是什麼現在是你們高等法院的院長跟行政庭長可以繞過最高法院的裁定喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3515.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3524.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
然後自己去創造了跟最高法院的裁定不一樣的法律見解然後去施壓陳審法官自請迴避可以這樣做嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3545.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3561.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
當事人如果不服要申請迴避的時候都可以列為法定事由嗎?都可以在申請狀寫嗎?最高法院都已經裁定駁回了所以我現在我在質疑的是當你們開了這扇門等於是說什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3562.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3579.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
高等法院的院長、行政庭庭長可以繞過最高法院繞過最高法院創造法律所沒有的事由去施壓層層法官自請迴避嚴重破壞了法定法官的原則涉及了審判核心事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3581.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3607.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我有說錯嗎?向委員說明我們在這個第三點有說明齁就綜合起來那洪庭長跟李院長他是出於關心保護而建議啦所以我就說嘛以後大家都是關心啦以後不會有什麼施壓啦大家都是關心啦用關心兩個字就可以侵害法定法官原則就可以施壓基層的法官自請迴避喔我看不下去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3608.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3637.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
你這樣的解釋大家可不可以接受我說過我講最後一次全國法官啊都會公平接下來地方民事強制執行事件收案情況我上次代秘書長講過看過了齁從2022年開始暴增到2023年的時候整個狀況已經不可收拾了我那個時候問司法院請問你們做了什麼請問你們做了什麼你們一直沒有給我正面的答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3639.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3667.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
結果呢基層同仁我說過我收到民事執行處基層同仁的憤怒他們可能下棋沒有辦法上打所以我利用質詢的時間啊我跟秘書長報告從2022年年底到2023年年底整整一年的困境他們在講的困境是什麼就是這個圖就是這個圖從每個月新收到未結 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3669.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3689.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
快速的累積增加從2022到2023結果司法院視而不見到2024年2月才進行調查我第一次質詢你的時候我就請教司法院做了什麼我請教司法院做了什麼我從你們這邊得不到答案我從地方執行處的 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3691.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3702.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
同仁那邊直接得到答案這個不是我說的吼下情可能沒有辦法上達我幫他們反映然後呢來看一下他們的班表每天晚上加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3704.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3731.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
星期五加班到晚上10點禮拜六禮拜天再來這個是他們在你們的財情系統裡面輸入的時間這不是我偽造變造的這是你們司法院法院內部加班系統的電池紀錄2023年的時候是這樣來你看那個時間嘛2023年然後我還特別挑了1、2、3、4、5、6日 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3734.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3756.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
1、2、3、4、5、6日每天都加每天都加2023年是這樣我們再看一下2024年2024年一樣幾乎每天加班6日繼續來連著上班根本沒有假日來我請教一下秘書長現在在地方法院民事執行處 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3758.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3784.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這一些民事執行處的同仁他們報加班時數的上限請教秘書長像委員說明都是我們司法院的同仁我們當然都是很關心然後這一段期間因為突然案件你到2024年才關心嘛這人家講的嘛這個一直都有在反映啦那我們民視廳也都有跟臺北地院的院長、廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3786.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3790.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我再請教一下秘書長執行處的同仁可以報加班時數的上限是多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3815.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3842.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我已經問第三次了因為委員假如有需要我們會再提供啦我們提示的答案我知道我現在在挑戰的是答案你知不知道因為我們當然會盡量設法來來如何來奇怪我在問具體的問題然後你全部在講形容詞主席再強我要尊重主席但我要拜託主席可以指示秘書長回答嗎主席我的問題有很刁鑽嗎加班時數上限是多少小時請問秘書長是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3844.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3845.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我最後跟秘書長講 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3873.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3886.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
你秘書長是總管所有的行政事務這一件事情喔你是執行出案件累積的問題我相信不同的召委你來這邊排專報大概最少兩次我絕對不會記錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3888.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3912.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我今天如果第一次問你問題我問這樣子可能是我不對整個問題在司法法制委員會討論過幾次甚至還開了公聽會結果你作為司法院的秘書長我就在挑戰你知不知道基層同仁的心聲基層同仁的困境嘛來最後我只講一件事齁我只講一件事請秘書長你可不可以承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3913.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3943.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
你花一個時間你說你們4月的時候不是增加了7個股嗎?對對嘛,好你們4月增加7個股我只拜託秘書長隨便找一天的時間花一個小時去臺北地院的民事執行處聽所有基層同仁的心聲加了這7個股以後對他們的幫助有多大?你找這些人力派遣公司的人去派你找這些人力派遣公司的人去真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3944.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3960.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
有辦法幫他們解決他們現在工作的困境嗎?你不用聽我說你願不願意花一個小時的時間去台北地院的民事執行處聽他們的心聲?這個我會去我會去會嗎?會會好 謝謝如果啦秘書長你要去的時候通知我一下我陪你去 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3962.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3964.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個相關的數據這加班的上線秘書長去問一下這個是一個很簡單的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3985.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4013.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
全國的公務員、法官、檢察官加班有上限這是很基本的一件事情所以可能麻煩秘書長了解一下第二件事情他們的辛苦我不知道說司法院高層聽不聽得到但是我照三餐在聽以前的法官、檢察官同學在抱怨黃國昌剛剛講的這個東西我覺得不只他啦我大概也都聽到爆炸了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4013.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4031.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我也是感同身受啦但是跟秘書長報告一件事情我以前這些同學跟我講的都是說司法院永遠不管他們這些都把這些法官就丟給他們去死啦每個人都在抱怨這個然後他們說更悲哀的是要找一個檢方出身的人在幫他們講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4033.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4044.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
所以我覺得是不是說麻煩一下這個要當一件事情在處理我不想說是法官體系或警察官體系再有第二件 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4045.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4072.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
不幸的事發生好嗎?對,因為確實我們現在司法院、所屬法院這個緩忙血汗的部門確實都相當多秘書長,我上次已經跟秘書長還有蔡部長說一件事情問題在制度不是捕人啦捕人是長官騙部署的方式捕人是用國家的權去 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4074.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4075.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
麻煩你們這要當一件事情處理謝謝秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4103.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4104.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
麻煩秘書長、次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4124.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4149.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
秘書長、次長好剛剛其實包含黃國昌委員還有我們的召委吳宗憲委員都有提到有關於司法人力過重的問題然後怎麼樣從改善這個人力結構還有薪資結構加班的這個結構裡面來做調整那麼其實我覺得一個比較簡單的方式因為現在這個司法人力不管是檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4150.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4179.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
檢查體系還是法院體系其實都有所謂加班時數的上限可是我們知道其實整個司法的工作他不是一個單純的像勞工一樣他可以說是很清楚的去釐清他要加班多好的時間常常他就是一個責任制這也是為什麼很多的我們現在看到我們的司法人員那麼他們都利用週末假日的時候甚至晚上還加班到非常晚可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4179.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4196.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
事實上他們每個月可能最高能夠領到的加班的這個時數只能40小時對那這個其實是顯然不合理這個部分其實已經討論非常久所以有沒有可能去檢討有關於現在加班時數的上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4197.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4224.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我們可能是要採的是一個類似以案件來計算或者是說是再把加班時數往上面調那麼這個是本席希望就是說是兩邊單位是不是可以競速的將如何改善加班時數檢討這個加班機制這個部分那可以請兩個單位都可以競速提出相關的方案來解決這個問題請問秘書長有可能做到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4228.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4247.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
在前提是經會席殼下我們當然是盡量來能夠加班就盡量讓同仁加班前提也要經會過是 基本上就是你們要有需求你們要提出解決的方案那我至少在司法法制委員會這邊我會support就是兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4249.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4249.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
法務部也可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4273.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4296.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
謝謝委員的關心我想加班的問題是我們檢查機關從上到下大家會面臨這個問題剛才秘書長講的是很正確的因為是涉及到經費的問題那個會有排擠的效用可能會影響謝謝委員的指教那我們會在會後再強加以計算如果有需求再請委員幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4297.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4306.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
好,謝謝。那麼接下來就是可以請秘書長先回座,那我也想再請那個教育部,教育部今天是哪個代表嗎?是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4313.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4314.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
司法院秘書長、法務部部長、教育部率所屬相關單位列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4328.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4353.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
學校的教育輔導機制我看起來就是剛剛在你們的報告裡面你們寫了很多有安排心理諮商師又有各式各樣的不同的課程來協助以及他們除了學校之後的教育輔導的銜接機制可是我都沒有看到一個具體的數字就是這些經過你們輔導之後的這些少年那他們再犯率 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4355.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4372.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
對,那這個部分是很重要,就你們的實施成效到底如何?早在學校裡面經過你們重重安排規劃的教育方式實施之後那這些受刑的少年他們出校之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4373.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4376.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
再犯率是有多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4392.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4418.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
跟委員報告有關少年的這個前科再犯例這個是屬於特種的個資所以除了說少年他再入校或是說接押移進我們才會有這個數據不然平常我們不會有這個數據所以我們原則上我們會來加強相關的跟司法院合作的輔導機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4419.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4447.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我認為這其實蠻重要的就是說我們要知道就是說經過了你這個教這個學校的教育輔導之後那他的成效如何他是不是真的有辦法去改善這些曾經這個犯過法的少年那麼他們經過重重的教育學習之後有沒有在改善他們的改善的成果如何那我希望之後可以請你們把這個相關的數據再提供給本席好嗎可以一個月之內提供給我嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4448.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4458.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
就是把這些數據大概可以整理一下這可能我們回去要研究看看有沒有這些數據因為目前可能相關的這些譴責還是在司法院那如果在司法院的話那也請秘書長這邊協助幾個單位大家一起把這個資料給它整理起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4470.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4494.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
好那接下來我想再詢問就是說是還有另外一個部分是在今天沒有討論到就在少年安置機構的規定現在其實看起來也顯不合時宜我們知道這個司法院辦理捐助民間安置機構作業要點這個要點是在民國99年就發布了到現在都沒有改善都沒有修訂過 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4496.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4512.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
是的,這個部分我們大概就是會跟我們的這個邵氏法會,我們的母法修正的時候,我們大概會...可是這個行政辦法基本上你們可以很機動性的去做修正。是,沒有錯。對,我在這裡要強調的就是說是,現在我們的這個物價都... |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4516.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4518.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
衛福部說的資商費用每人每次最高是1600元你們到現在都還是1200元在補助要點的第三點還有另外像是補助要點第四點對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4542.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4548.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
是的,我跟委員報告一下就是我們邵司法其實從108年已經修正連昨天因為通過已經是第三波那這個補助要點我跟委員報告是我們現在的安置輔導是邵司法的保護處分的其中一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4569.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4598.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那安置輔導我們會跟機構簽約簽約如果說那安置輔導的少年他需要就需要心理諮商其實在他的安置輔導的輔導的計畫當中其實就會有一個心理諮商的費用那這個部分呢是如果他有不足比如說他要進行的可能不是個人的而是比如說是家族式的那這個是在補助機構在本來我們已經在執行的安置輔導的需要心理治療的這個部分以外的一個補助的一個費用上委員做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4599.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4625.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
總之就是說我希望你們這個補助要點就是安置機構補助民間安置機構最要點可以再進行一個同盤指導畢竟已經很久沒有再進行了那接下來我這邊我還想請教這個次長還有秘書長就是我們知道我們的這個禮拜二很辛苦我們國會改革法案尤其是立法院職權刑事法才剛修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4626.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4637.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那麼現在外界包含行政院其實都有一些意見認為說我們有些名詞沒有定義清楚我想請教一下次長秘書長什麼叫反貪腐反滲透反托拉斯反傾銷請秘書長可以回答一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4654.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4670.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
因為像這些齁 我覺得精準比較重要啦 比較重要 要精準啦是 要怎麼樣精準法您告訴我 什麼叫反滲透有需要的話齁 那有些這個 我也不方便在這邊就這樣回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4671.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4671.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
因為像這些齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4701.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4708.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個法規面它有一定的嚴謹度啦請問一下您知道這些名詞在我們憲法裡面它有定義嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4713.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4740.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
請問次長有沒有定義我想請次長秘書長剛剛講的是對現行法律規定已經有定義解釋的我們在這裡講萬一跟法條規定不一樣有一些誤會本席在這邊告訴你我剛剛講的這些名詞在法條上都沒有定義它就是一個不確定法律概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4741.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4767.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
好來麻煩上一頁所以我們在立法院職權刑事法第25條裡面講的反質詢它就是一個不確定的法律概念它的概念其實就跟之前面講的不管是叫反什麼叫反傾銷稅什麼叫做反貪腐反滲透它不就是一個要未來根據個具體事實的是否符合法律要件的一個判斷嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4769.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4788.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
為什麼在其他的法律我們可以這樣規定在我們立法院職權行使法裡面包含這個很多法界人士那甚至行政院還針對這個部分要來提出復議甚至民進黨委員未來要提起釋憲我覺得這一點法律的common sense都沒有我今天聽了就是次長和秘書長的這樣回答我其實心裡還蠻感慨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4798.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4818.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
對 這個是一個在法律的這個用語裡面這非常基本的一個概念好 那麼我想就是希望未來就是你們在解釋法律的時候還是要秉持你們的專業去做一個合理的解釋以上 謝謝好 謝謝下一位我們請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4834.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4859.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
有請次長。喂,好。次長,我覺得今天招委牌的議程非常有意義。就是討論青少年罪犯,如果透過教育輔導跟矯正機制,那預防再犯,促進社會復歸來落實社會安全網。 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4861.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4876.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
但是要討論犯罪後的改善機制前我覺得法務部可能要對犯罪趨勢有一定的掌握對不對是那所以我要請教一下請教次長你覺得現在青少年犯罪的情形嚴重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4882.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4884.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
因為犯罪的類型也有一點點變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4907.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4925.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
好啦我跟次長說啦其實真的還是那個數字掌握要準備精確一點12歲到17歲青少年的嫌疑犯你知道這個2016年就是馬英九總統卸任的時候是多少人嗎?9476人啦那2023年是多少?我告訴你是10419人 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4934.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4946.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
有就是相對是成長可是呢以犯罪嫌疑以嫌疑犯總數來看馬政府八年任內因為他在2008年上任的時候是11106人 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4950.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4966.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
然後在2016年他卸任的時候是9476人到2023年的話就是又變成是10419人所以從嫌疑犯總數來看馬政府8年任內青少年嫌疑犯減少了15% |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4969.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4987.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
蔡英文任內則增加百分之十但是還有一個很重要因素喔市長你知道現在我們的少子化很嚴重吧對不對這是事實所以青少年我們青少年的人口比重是越來越高還是越來越低啊人口總數啦越來越高還是越來越低低越來越低 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4988.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5011.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
青少年人口總數越來越低但是嫌疑犯人數卻增加了10個百分點換言之如果換算比重的話增加情況是更嚴重那如果說今天我們考量少子化因素你知道問題就更嚴重就是說每萬位青少年嫌疑犯人數你知道2008年是多少嗎就是馬英九上任前上任的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5014.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5042.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
呃... |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5042.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5069.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們剛剛也看了一下一些我們的統計數據齁我先跟次長講 都警政署的統計你不要跟我講警政署統計是不對的喔不是不對 委員 我不是這個意思警政署統計不對包委員 我沒有說不對我的意思是說 最近的案件增加大部分都是少年車手炸雞案件對 不要緊張啦 次長我下一個就要問這個問題啦所以 這個數據的你不是說你超前部署 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5069.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5097.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
你知道我下一個要問的問題我要先跟次長說不管怎麼樣是哪一種犯罪類型青少年是國家的未來吧我不管你的犯的罪是偷竊還是詐欺實際上青少年如果進到犯罪才會我們今天想要所謂的矯正然後想要能夠再回歸的系統的討論就是因為我們不能夠看到現在這嚴重的狀況如果再惡化下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5099.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5115.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
臺灣怎麼辦啦?這個次長認同嘛對不對?認同認同至少第一件事情先不講說你現在後面詐欺我再跟你講啦車手再跟你講但是青少年這8年來嫌疑犯比重成長1.44倍你覺得嚴不嚴重?這個問題包含詐欺啦這個問題應該算是嚴重對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5121.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5145.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以我們先要正視問題的嚴重那今天我說實在話就是說基本上當然我們下一個問題就討論到詐欺的問題就是你剛剛講嘛12到17歲犯罪型態 輕少年犯罪型態最大幅上升的就是詐欺嘛 對不對警政署的統計12到17歲的詐欺嫌疑犯2016年是多少人你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5146.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5161.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
報告委員我們有這個資料953人2023年12到17歲的詐欺嫌疑犯多少人你知道嗎報告委員不知道2186人市長你知道我要跟你談的問題是什麼了吧就是2.3倍耶2.3倍我們國家未來的主人翁耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5176.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5193.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
射入詐騙的人數成長2.3倍我覺得真的是這種情況之下如果是以每萬人就以比重來看的話那更從6.2位每萬人6.2位是成長到18.6位以比重來看的話是成長3倍我用觸目驚心來形容次長你認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5205.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5233.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
你認同嗎?詐欺成長到這種程度?委員用這樣子的形容詞,我還是尊重,不過我們看得出來...沒關係,我告訴你,次長,你如果不能體認問題的嚴重性...不不,這個問題我們可以知道是嚴重,所以我們...沒關係,我告訴你,主觀感受,我就是看到真的是覺得...我還真想用施明德的名言,毛骨悚然 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5234.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5250.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
真的 看到這個是很痛心的事情啊 非常痛心啊那接下來我就要問 當然現在法務部我也必須講啦 因為新政府上來了 對不對 亡羊補牢時猶未晚 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5252 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5262.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
所以現在要努力的來做反詐騙的部分那我們就回到今天來看法務部統計少年犯再犯率高達25%這是法務部報告裡面法務部統計的數字 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5268.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5290.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以要強調安置輔導感化教育可是我跟次長說根據台灣照顧管理協會的數字以新北市為例每名少年調查保護官平均每年要處理14件調查案、75件保護管束案還不包括假日生活輔導、安置輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5292.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5307.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
感化教育等人力相當吃緊根據民間團體統計少年犯進入矯正學校再犯率居高不下以城鎮中學為例安置一年的再犯率是55.35%兩年的再犯率是66.39%安置三年更高達30%而且有36.58% |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5316.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5328.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
再次被收押當然這是個別民團的統計可是我想請問法務部那你有沒有掌握少年犯進入矯正學校安置一年、兩年跟三年的再犯率統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5330.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5356.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
剛才那個那個署長有特別講這個資料除非他再進學校否則我們是沒有辦法去調查的市長我這個就是我要多說一句話以前如果沒有做那也不能怪你啦民團做得出來如果連我們政府單位都做不出來但民團做得出來精不精確那民團做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5357.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5376.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
可是這個再犯率的數字不就是某種程度我們所謂的少年安置的一個績效指標嗎就是代表我們到底安置透過這個人的措施我們減少他再犯我們要減少再犯率要看到減少再犯的結果嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5377.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5378.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們請署長回答這個比較技術性的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5399.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5426.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
跟委員報告,去年的11月,城鎮中學有輔導教師在學術研討會上有做一個經驗分享說,少角校出校的學生,他的再犯率是大概五成左右就跟剛剛那個民團稍微有點落差啦但是他是個人的經驗分享,就我剛剛有提到的除了是再入校﹖議長,我覺得個人的經驗分享這個部分,那是個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5427.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5427.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
好 謝謝你 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5459.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5469.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好 謝謝 我們下一位請沈博洋委員沈博洋委員沈博洋委員鍾瑞雄委員我們接下來請鍾瑞雄委員發言謝謝 謝謝張偉 有請我們司法院吳秘書長麻煩秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5488.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5496.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
法務部部長先生他到11點才會來次長麻煩次長委員好秘書長還有次長各位列席的官員大家早我先來給兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5513.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5520.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
看兩張圖表就是說從那個圖表秀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5521.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5538.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我們法務部司法官學任執行中華民國111年犯罪狀況的分析這兩張表近10年少年犯罪嫌疑人數最多在102年12,038人最少就是107年的8,893但近3年從109年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5551.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5574.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
1萬226人逐年減少到111年9554也就是說看起來其實是持平請問我們司法院看起來我國今年少年的一個處罰人數這樣到底是上升還是下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5577.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5577.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
司法院秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5595.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5622.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
你們的官網裡面是這樣講近10年來這個少年就是12歲以上未滿18歲調查事件呈現這個整個件數下滑你說你這個看起來就很明顯跟法務部的報告就有落差啦所以我要請教司法院秘書長就是說你們可不可以解釋一下你網上上次調查事件的定義是怎麼樣那我國少年處罰情況到底你們是上升還是下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5624.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5624.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
你們這個差距很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5626.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5655.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
你當然是有類型化我當然懂你的意思是 跟委員報告我們的調查事件呢因為我們的案源呢其實來自於三種一種大部分都是警察局對於少年如果有觸法或者是他有曝險那大概現在曝險大概會先送少婦會所以會送法院呢大概現在大概就是我們的觸法案件進來之後我們就會分少調所以這裡的調查案件是指少年12歲到18歲以下的這個少年觸犯刑法法律的事件這是我們的少年調查事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5656.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5684.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
是啦 我的意思就是說另外一種是檢察官那另外其他的還有不論任何人都可以向法院報告我以下要提的就是說其實我感受到我們司法院這邊跟法務部這個地方你們對整個數字裡面這樣的一個掌握其實在我看起來是有很大的一個落差啦我看起來是很大的落差但我想最主要啊國人最關心的大家也最痛恨的這幾年政府最想解決的就是這個少年的一個犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5685.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5703.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
大家最討厭的是什麼我看接下來打詐司法這個草野大家其實大家都有共識大家也非常的一個痛恨只是這個手段怎麼樣在通過法制化以後讓提供給我們這個整個司法單位有更好的一個利器事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5704.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5721.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
一個詐騙集團裡面一個很明顯的一個特徵就是說他很喜歡找年輕人當車手反正被抓了向上去溯源青少年的刑責是最低的所以這個其實少年處罰的人數近十年你說沒有特別的一個漲幅我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5721.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5736.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我也願意相信從數字裡面來看可是這個沒有特別的長幅就像剛剛你提到的處罰的類型有所差別原本從竊盜人數最大宗到2021年開始變成詐欺人數最多但我要提出一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5737.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5759.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我們政府必須要去反省的一個地方就是說我們去跟別的國家做比較你去跟鄰國的日本做比較的話日本從2003年以後日本的少年犯罪率跟犯罪人數一直處於穩定的下降的一個趨勢以2022年的為例他少年刑事人口犯罪的10萬人裡面是193.3人 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5764.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5770.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
臺灣2000同年2022年來做比較的話我們是每10萬人口裡面是800人日本193.3我們800 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5776.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5796.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
秘書長這個是很恐怖的你去看其他的國家台灣少年處罰人數這麼高這個看起來是很少見你看美國有時候我們都認為他治安不太好美國司法部的一個統計美國是10萬名裡面10到17歲的少年被逮捕率近10年他減少了57% |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5798.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5827.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
它降低了57%英國的狀況也是如此那10到17歲的少年逮捕率從2011年從20萬降到2021年5萬減幅75%所以我要請教法務部的就是說為什麼我們台灣少年處罰事件這麼的高我們沒有辦法去有效的降低是不是我們整個制度的一個設計上或者整個社會安全網上有哪一些我們需要去再改善的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5828.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5851.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
青少年犯罪那是多面向的,絕對不是只有法律那當然,社會、經濟、家庭這些都是報告委員,那打詐是法是其實是我們在防止這個詐騙是一個很重要的利器那從源頭去管制、去克服會死的案件下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5852.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5880.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那我們今年從1月到4月統計其實我們的詐欺的案件是下滑了已經有初步的透過各部會的合作其實我們已經看下法已經有百分之十幾的成績出來了那如果打詐是法經過大會在全力的支持我們我們這個法律制定好了以後相關部會的執法再制定出來會再更進一步的有效的打擊這些詐騙集團那這個源頭管制好了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5881.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5896.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
末端的青年車手應該會有所減少所以我們就希望說大家一起努力大院能夠來協助我們我想這個是我們要報告的內容昨天我陪了卓院長去看韓院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5897.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5921.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
打炸司法行政院也弄出來了那我相信朝野這個部分其實其意也非常小我們都要好好的去檢驗提供給我們司法部門這樣的一個武器以後接下來的人數整個犯罪率尤其是少年犯罪會不會去做一個降低我現在針對的部分其實就是所謂的少年就是少年那我會特別有感就是這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5923.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5940.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我沒有問題出在哪裡我們去跟別的國家比較人家是降低那麼多你說我們都知道少年少事法裡面針對暴險少年的保護事件跟處罰少年的刑事案件裡面提供他們不同的一個處遇用這樣的一個分流涉及到兩個重要的職務去做一個串聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5941.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5959.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我看就是一個少年調查官跟少年保護官第一個他們肩負一個調查收集少年的一個資料你說開庭前交由法官去參考一個執行保護處分類似社會工作者這樣的一個角色來協助監督少年執行法案所裁定的一個處分這兩個看起來明確定位的一個工作其實我本席這時間比較少不然我是發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5966.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5988.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
其實很大的一個問題這個制度從原來的少年關乎人演變來你說少年調查官跟少年保護官從少年關乎人去演變過來到了我們1997年去修法以後把調查跟保護分開實務上你去看我從那個高雄的少年跟家事法院裡面來看運作上你倒就是變成把兩個又變成合併了 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5990.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5997.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
您可變合併了,聯名司長,要變合併了那合併以後就是說,你說這調查官同時也是一個保護官我看起來就覺得怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5999.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6022.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
比如說我看就怪怪的你知道嗎就是說作為調查官你本來程序上你會保持客觀調查程序啟動以後發現少年可能跟有其他符合處罰的要見的一個事情理論上你調查官馬上要去告知那等於說他是一個監督、觀察、提交重要證據給法官的人那如果你就把這個調查官跟調查跟保護又把它合併在一起的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6023.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6031.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
有時候如果是我的話我發現一個新式犯罪的事實我調查右肩保護官我要被懲罰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6033.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6055.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這簡直是一個兩難你反而沒有辦法讓保護官原本要跟少年取得互信這樣的一個基礎我認為你這個會打上一個大問號所以我請教秘書長就是說你像現在司法院目前當初利益良善的調查跟保護你把它分離的制度你這樣要怎麼具體落實也沒有辦法去改善這個像第一線這樣實務的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6058.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6063.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我強調的是風險我們的調查官跟保護官從1997年開始少子法大修法之後最早是少年關護人後來才有成關關護人其實主要是做保護的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6081.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6099.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
但少年法庭的調查官他其實要去調查少年為什麼會去竊盜為什麼會去擔任車手背後的原因比如他的家庭功能他的教育功能到底有什麼問題所以調查跟保護後來監理的原因主要是人力的問題這我知道啦對是但是你本地分離你跟河流還要變合併你這個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6101.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6101.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
會不會有衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6122.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6127.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
問題出在哪裡你們知道嗎制度設計冷冰冰啊真正在落實的時候為什麼沒有你去跟別的國家做比較我就看這個數字啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6153.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6178.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
差距太大我們自己做筆稿我們那個數字呈現的下降趨勢其實是很急有 有下降但是那個速度是很慢的啦你反觀你去跟隔壁的日本甚至我們認為我們認為說整個犯罪率很高的美國去做比較的話我們也輸人添添嘛那一項很多制度的一個設計我會覺得當然很多人在努力我都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6179.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6202.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
不想去打擊可是很多制度的涉及這是一種寮備一格而已啊你像譬如說你們現在少舞會本身的組織也很微妙啊那個地方縣市首長擔任主委委員那這樣警察跟社工人員一起來進行針對這些負險少年的輔導跟改善他們面對的都可能就是有一些譬如說施打毒品啊或有槍砲的人啊準備要砍人或做壞事的這一些這些人真的有心還真的有得去落實我們制度設計這個崗位 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6208.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6232.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我如果做管理長、我如果做企長,我自己的事情就沒辦法了,我跟你們在一起?我只是去跟你們煎菜一個月而已,我去跟你們走一個月而已,當然也有鼓勵的性質,不能說沒有啦!所以這個就非常奇怪啦!那你本身啦,我再看啦,第三個問題我要請教一下,部長,我要請市長,我要叫到你就叫我先 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6234.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6262.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個少輔會我們現在少年輔導委員會先行以後我們就試圖讓這些少輔會有更多的職能任務變多但就像司法院講的人力也沒有變多那這些組織又這麼的鬆散地方各局處參與的部分實際上到底有沒有任何去統籌跟規劃你們有沒有碰到什麼樣的一個困境我們從去年轟動全台的那種新北國中少年吃那個彈簧刀 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6264.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6292.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
把人殺害的案例就可以看到了這個少年他去過了關務所如果說少年保護官的能量是足夠你持續去做一個追蹤配合當地的少府積極去介入個案的話像這些悲劇我都認為說都其實都是可以減緩的啦都是可以減緩的啦所以我剛剛為什麼會講到說你們談出來的司法人就是常常會這樣法律人就常常這樣會講出一道制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6294.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6309.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
來制定一套制度可是呢冷冰冰的制度底下再來看具體的數字你會發現我們這些努力啊不能我就不想去打擊可是我就覺得這個成效差距太大 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6310.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6310.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
暴動以後． |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6326.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6351.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
是特別針對趕快教育部前的一些處遇提出的看法我這不再贅述了但是從整個少年少事法的一個發動的開始問題你就慢慢去現行少五會的權責跟一路陪伴青年調查程序到保護程序的保護官這個其實本席認為真的是重中之重不能因為說人力的問題啊到最後我們制度的設計本來是分流然後到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6352.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6380.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
就變成說整個功能就失掉了不要忘記了你看我們第一條就講說為了保障少年健全的自我成長、調整跟成長環境並矯制他的一個性格這一步其實是很多前輩慢慢跟社會溝通才建構出來的一個制度那從對孩子的規訓跟懲罰逐漸去落實教育代替刑法的保護的一個精神這條路本來就會非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6381.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6382.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們也期待真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6411.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6440.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
真的這個部分要努力啦我剛剛看到這個數字喔尤其是法務部跟司法院這樣的一個數字我兩張圖表讓你看你們就我就感受到你們的對數字這樣的一個看法還對整個狀況的一個掌握真的有落差但是我覺得我覺得你們是無感的因為你們看的是制度立法院看的是說這些冷冰冰的數字裡面我們怎麼樣去突破讓這個制度去發揮具體落實加油好不好好 謝謝謝謝中委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6442.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6457.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
接下我們請林思敏委員好 趙偉我們請那個次長麻煩許次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6466.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6471.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
市長早 委員早市長我今天看到一則媒體的報導我很訝異 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6474.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6491.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個報告是講說這個屏東的有關周點輪的這個涉及砸500萬替郭台銘買連署的這個審判庭的開庭他們當場勘驗那個當時的那個徵訊影像他們去對照當時的徵訊筆錄那發覺說檢方 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6501.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6510.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
檢方對周品全說以大局為重給我一點處理時間查證涉及政治案件不是我一個人決定上面都同意我們在放人 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6527.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6555.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這樣的一個檢察官的一個表態檢察官在偵訊的時候跟被告說這樣的話市長所以這樣子這段你有看清楚了那你覺得檢察官會做這樣的一個表態跟被告來表態說這個案子是他一個人不可以決定要上面同意他才可以放人 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6556.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6578.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以這是不是政治力介入我們的司法報告委員 我們檢察官一定是按照刑事說法在執行他的職務這一個內容到底是什麼樣的內容我們只是看到報紙的報告我想而且這個案子都已經是法院的法官在審理中 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6578.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6603.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
已經進入審判庭所以才會去再勘驗這個光碟影像我們的立場對於這種具體個案我們是不方便評論當然至少個案你不方便評論只是現在我們看到的證據一分證據說一分話現在你的檢察官竟然在開偵查庭的時候說出這樣子說這個是政治案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6605.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6627.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這個不是我一個人可以決定的要上面同意我們才可以放人因為這個案子在偵辦的過程中大家就一個質疑這是不是政治力介入但是從這個偵訊影像的勘驗這個偵訊影像就很明顯了就是政治力介入報告委員 這個內容我們真的是不曉得他是怎麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6628.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6644.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
報紙的報導怎麼出來的?我們以後一定會以法官的判決書的內容為主如果有的話我們一定會去了解這一屆的國會新跡象新的名義我們真的要期許法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6645.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6658.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
有關於這種不管是在偵查任何的案件所有的案件我真的要期許你們政治力不要介入尤其不要半藍不半綠這個讓人感覺起來你們就是針對我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6663.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6681.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
國民黨的所有政治人物去偵辦我們一定是公正的我們是行政中立你今天在這邊說我們希望說未來我們可以看到說我們的法務體系真的不再有政治力的介入回到我們今天的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6682.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6708.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那目前我們市所矯正學校端平、城鎮、立志、名陽均為完全中學的概念那高中是以即職教育為主我看到您的報告講說在學生入校後一個月內會個案評估報告分析少年的背景以及處遇需求以提供適當的輔導處遇那就是說市長我們少年的犯罪太陽非常的多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6709.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6737.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
是否每一個每一種犯罪形態你要提供適合的輔導嘛是比如說我們現在看到就是說現在那個少年詐欺的車手還非常多嘛巨增嘛對所以對於像這種類型的這種不管是少年詐欺啦或者是我們少年的這種這個性剝削的這種相關的這種少年的一個犯罪的這些這個新少年犯罪者要如何的來輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6738.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6764.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
你們是不是有做這個適性的一個分類的一個輔導?有有,我們各種根據他的那個犯罪的一個類型都會加以輔導像詐欺好了,詐欺會牽扯到他的習性、他的價值觀、他的家庭環境等等那老師就會針對這個部分給他做一個完整的介紹說明以輔導他是,所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6765.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6789.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我想這個在整個輔導過程中當然除了詐欺以外還有很多很多類型完全都不一樣都不一樣每個人的因為他的一個或者是因為他精神狀態的問題或者是他的心理情緒的問題而犯這個各類型的一個犯罪所以我們在輔導的過程中我剛才我看你的報告是有三級輔導這算是第二級的輔導處遇但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6794.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6802.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
你對於這些輔導就是說真正的輔導的過程是不是真的能夠讓這些人不再犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6803.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6805.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
報告委員．因為這些離開學校的學生他如果再犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6825.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6845.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
如果他沒有進就是我們的學校他只是在少年法庭這邊呢就譬如說已經就請回了家長帶回去類似像這樣的處理方式他沒有進學校我們學校沒有辦法拿到我現在是說進學校進學校之後他復歸社會之後有沒有做過統計請那個蘇處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6852.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6876.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
報告委員 我們原則上對於學生進入再犯率的統計 這邊是沒有沒有詳細的這個數據沒有詳細的數據喔對 但是我們主要是這樣啦 因為我看到你們的目前的機制是出校後將持續追蹤一年嘛是以利於穩固學生復歸社區家庭的狀況嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6878.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6896.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以你要去追蹤嗎?去追蹤你不用做統計喔?報告委員 這個部分是少角校的輔導教師或是社工師他會跟縣市政府的社工師做後綴議我想現在大數據的時代啦我還是希望你們我建議啦 未來這個要做你才會知道說這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6898.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6916.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這些孩子經過我們這個少年輔導學校他出去之後有沒有追蹤之後有沒有繼續犯罪這個才能夠對於你未來你這個學校要如何的去改善增進你的這個教育的課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6917.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6940.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
不是說你現在訂了三級制度,但是你都沒有去考量說出去之後還會不會再犯?報告委員,後綴的主要目的是要協助他解決他的生活問題至於說他有沒有再犯罪,這個部分並不是最主要的目的我是說可以作為,你有這個大數據的分析之後,可以作為以後你們學校在安排課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6942.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6961.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
看是不是要加強輔導 怎麼樣來深化輔導 要加強哪一種 哪一類型的教育 讓他不要再犯那這個部分是不是可以讓我們 學校的一個教育的一個重點嗎 讓他進到這個我們的少年輔導 是這個學校 矯正學校來這個念書 他的目的不是也要讓他能夠回歸正常嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6964.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6989.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
來檢討相關的法規我們可以掌握的部位作為對法規的部份我們來研究其實為什麼我會這樣問你我跟你講一個數據就是成仁中學他在110年的資料統計資料他說安置一年的再犯率是55.35%近兩成的初校生會再次被收押初校時間越長再犯刑事案件的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6990.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6993.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
暗自兩年的再犯率為66.39%暗自三年的更高,達80%且36.58%被再次收押所以我要請問你,為什麼再犯率會這麼高? |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7008.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7019.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
報告委員這個資料我們是有相關的統計安置大概是不到1%我們最主要是轉嫌復學跟就業最多安置其實很少我是不曉得這個數據是從哪邊來 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7023.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7040.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
你不知道喔 我再告訴你答案我知道 我會再告訴你喔所以我要請教的說目前是不是我們的追蹤轉型機制的規範不夠健全因為你剛才講追蹤才一年嘛後追一年對啊 你才後追一年嘛是不是這個時間不夠一年夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7044.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7074.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
再犯率會這麼高所以你的整個追蹤機制這個是我們意義相關規定來跨部會辦理的是 所以這部分我是建議說我們可能要在這個法規面或者法制面你要去研議是不是要延長就一看現行制度就不夠嘛你不要跟我講說依照現行的法規我當然依照現行法規這樣規定啊但是看起來就是不夠嘛不夠完備嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7076.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7077.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
接下來我們請林月琴委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7114.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7118.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
今天為什麼要這麼多的人在我們的備詢台因為我們知道少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7140.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7140.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7162.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7186.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
就是在2022年的時候甚至到2017年我們的司法國是會議對針對於我們的少年矯正學校的一個處遇都認為應該以教育為處遇的核心這是世界各國的一個趨勢那大家都是有共識的而且會議當中也有記錄那下一頁所以就先來問教育不過先問的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7188.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7191.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
市長委員,將近111年的二月份的公告,稍等才一段時間後的司法會還有些什麼關鍵? |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7220.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7237.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
是 那我想問是什麼時候可以再啟動否則就是擱置在那邊調整條文在今年的3月我們已經到行政院了在審查中那預計在什麼時候可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7238.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7242.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
可能要看行政院審查的進度什麼時候再送到立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7268.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7268.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7283.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7298.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
事實上是自為關鍵可是呢對於矯正學校的學生有沒有進行調整否則對他們來講事實上是一個很大的壓迫感因為他不想讓人家知道他過去否則學校要錄取他的可能性變成不高不知道這邊你們的配套又是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7300.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7319.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
謝謝委員關心其實學校就是四所教校他在運用108課綱的這個課程架構的時候其實大概只是提供他一個課程的架構那學校的課程規劃其實是可以在適應這些孩子的需求去做彈性的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7319.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7342.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那這些孩子每一個孩子我們都會就是有一副學籍的一般的學校所以每一個孩子他在就是學籍檔案裡頭其實他都有各自獨立的帳號他可以上傳但是他上傳是用一般學校的學籍他不會被辨識身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7343.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7371.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
可是為什麼民間有這麼多的反應我覺得教育部還是要去確定一下這都是團體他們在服務這些孩子的時候面對到的一些問題在整個課程的設計還有我們進入到矯正體系裡邊的實務工作者事實上都缺乏社會情緒能力跟技巧的培養我也期待矯正署事實上是要去做一些工作人員的培訓的時候要去考慮下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7372.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7394.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那這個就是我們的保護室就你有逆境少年跟家庭支持服務方案可是很大的問題是在於這個工作事實上是每一年去做補助那就會變成是你如果最後追一年的話至少追蹤一年可是會不會明年又不是這個單位來承接的話就會是斷掉的那我不知道你對這個有沒有一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7397.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7424.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
關於補助的方式是不是可以以後把它變成是一個比較中長期的部分這個我們可以回去做一個研究所以也請馬上回去做研議否則的話中斷定不利那再來就是我覺得邵家廷這邊想問就是說整個司法處遇本來整個的資料就非常透明不足然後我們很難去看到你的成效到底是什麼更讓我們覺得質疑的地方是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7426.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7440.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
他們到底要面對到多少人本來我們期待事實上是社工可不可以統籌有一個社工去統籌這邊也提到說以安室的管理可是實際上他們事實上是一個少年他面對到非常多的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7441.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7442.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7457.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7481.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
一樣邵俄廷這邊整個的少年保那個少年調查官這邊大概整個的人力上市上市1比70相對於一般性的兒少保護大概是人1比25那逆境方案的話是1比20所以相對人力是比較高的齁甚至當初矯正學校大便也要也有特別去提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7482.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7482.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7499.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7524.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
跟委員報告我們有盤點目前我們四所角度學校比較缺乏的是輔導教師缺乏5名還有就是心理師、社工師總共缺18名但是在這邊我要非常感謝教育部的國教署他支援我們心社人員12名本來在 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7525.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7542.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
去年就結束了,年底就結束了那麼它延續到今年年底,然後又答應延續到明年年底所以這個部分對我們來講是相當幫助但是我們將來會爭取編制的新設人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7543.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7560.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
不過也提醒矯正署這邊因為師資你可能要跟教育部通力去做合作啦為什麼因為不管事實上是我們現在的公職或教職的分類都沒有相關對應的相關課程來讓這些門被作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7561.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7561.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
提供討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7576.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7604.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
考量下一頁最後當然我就期待法部是不是可以盡速的是把那個少角條例趕快送出來教育部可能要去考慮到整個的少角條例少角的那個相關的內容的規劃跟實施還有是不是可以參考國外的做法來設置我們的少年矯正教育的研究中心還衛福部還是請盡速的去檢討是不是可以發展中長程的計畫而不是讓逆境每一年都要再去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7605.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7605.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7633.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7636.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
邱志維委員鄭天才委員謝榮介委員鍾嘉斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7662.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7670.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關司法官員、會長、工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生,有請司法院吳秘書長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7679.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7680.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7700.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7726.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
才能在徒消前科而且可視情況轉換在安置輔導跟保護管束請問秘書長是不是你們昨天有開這樣的一個會議?院會?昨天有是的有那我們看一下我們這個少年受管訓處分在早年1976年增訂了83條之一他本來是宣告完畢後5年而未遭受宣告就視為未承受該宣告是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7727.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7742.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那到1997年呢在83條之一呢你們把5年改為3年那增加了轉介處分不護審理或不護保護處分的裁定那為什麼昨天的院會你們講把改成說未在因故意觸犯刑法才做這樣的規定能不能說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7743.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7764.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
大概就是我們有去參考就是65年當時的這樣一個就是徒消前科他其實是有一個要件就是說必須是三年內他沒有再觸犯這些刑法法律受到管訓的宣告跟刑的宣告那有這樣的一個維持善良品性的一個要件那我們認為應該是要把它恢復回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7766.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7778.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以在1976年跟1997年的修訂忽略了這一條,所以你把它恢復就對了?是。好,我們往下看齁。那麼除了禮少年這樣徒消棄置之外,有沒有其他任何降低少年再犯可能性的作為呢?秘書長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7780.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7805.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
跟委員報告我想一個少年他透過一個犯罪其實就是一個學習的過程所以在司法介入我們是主要的目的是要去恢復家庭跟教育的功能跟社區的功能那所以其實如何預防再犯犯罪學裡面的預防再犯其實是一種這個一個方向其實我們現在行政院有一個犯罪預防方案的一個這樣一個措施那整個少年司法介入也是要預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7806.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7829.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
好,預防,你講了很多次預防,謝謝廳長,來我們來分析一下,其實目前的少年犯罪跟早年,我們剛剛以前想像說的戰後嬰兒潮在青少年階段血氣方剛,那麼暴力犯罪的事情占比相對多,其實我們去參考,很多國家都這樣,其實暴力犯罪跟那個人口結構是有關的, |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7830.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7846.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
如果當戰後嬰兒潮的人數在進入的新少年期到壯年期的時候他們因為從事暴力犯罪的可能性具有那個本錢所以較高但是我們看看這幾年來新少年的嫌疑犯的24%是涉詐期比例是最高的你們有沒有注意到這個犯罪行為的轉變 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7848.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7872.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
有的我們這個在近幾年來是有這樣的一個趨勢是的那但是呢我們這些屬於詐欺的輕罪他終結的都是以保護管束或者說在假日輔導為主那我們看一下在這個圖表當中107年到111年大概呢絕大部分的將近六成是保護管束還有三成的是訓誡或是加入輔導我請教一下訓誡是由誰為之加入輔導由誰為之 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7875.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7900.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
訓誡由法官委職,教育生活輔導由少年保護官很好,說到關鍵字了,這七個字,少年保護官,到這五個字,好,來,我們來看一下那如果在過程當中輔導資源不足,那少年呢,我們觀察到很容易回頭來投靠幫派我們來看一下在2022年的司法業務年報當中,過去十年受調查的少年當中三千多人當中,經常犯罪的降了三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7901.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7920.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那他們在什麼地方在經常犯罪呢?我們看一下從學校的偏差行為到地方政府的少輔會因為處罰進入了少年法院裁定之後他或者是訓誡或者是假日輔導或者保護管束或者安置機構或者感化教育那我們來看一下在學校端目前我們的學輔法輔導老師高中每12班才一名 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7921.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7933.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
國中每15班才一名今天有教育部的副署長在其實我們都看到這個預防的部分在三級預防的部分的確是資源有限是不是這樣子教育部是不是也覺得資源是有限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7934.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7951.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我們會努力爭取,其實包括修法再修,我們也會增加專業輔導人力好,但是我們今天談的是司法院主責的部分在保護處分後,我們的聯繫跟轉嫌會議是不是由邵保官來主責呢?我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7952.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7969.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
根據我們的少年法院與相關機關處理少年事件聯繫辦法第28條規定其實從少關所現在已經改名了出來的收容少年他要進行評估必要的時候相關的主管機關你看包含什麼要支援的聯繫匯報要求包括少年法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7969.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7989.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
社政、教育、輔導、衛生醫療、警政跟勞政因為我過去在地方政府我是擔任副首長副首長通常就是一些這種聯繫匯報的副主任委員也就在主任委員、縣市首長不能主持會議的時候都是委由副主任委員來出席副首長是不是這樣?是沒錯齁?好 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7992.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7992.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
聯繫跟轉弦誰來主責? |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8002.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8019.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
跟委員報告,如果說是保護官的業務會有保護官來主責但是有些時候像涉及到地方政府的局處我目前有這個二級聯繫會會由院長、地方保安院院長跟地方政府的首長去召開相關局處的聯繫會其實您剛講那個關鍵字啦其實就這樣的一個轉弦的機制來講呢聯繫匯報的行政機關的協調當然是以這些主管或首長為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8036.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8049.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
當我們保護管束的成敗與否,關鍵就在少保官。少保官最了解個案,他也最清楚,也當他有需要聯繫匯報去調度各種資源的時候,他是需求的發動者,是不是這樣子? |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8050.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8052.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
請問司法院每名保護管束的少年平均可以見到幾次少保官? |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8070.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8084.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我們這個是有規則規定的來一嫌保護官來回答一下委員保護官請說委員你好就是有關保護管束的少年部分我們有一個要點制定是說前半年的話就是前半年你聲音大一點好嗎不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8085.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8107.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
前半年我們有一個規定說前三個月是說每個月至少要兩次那是它的情況可以再增加如果它的情況比較不穩定那我們甚至可以去做家訪或者是校訪等一些其他的動作那關於報到的話是至少要兩次就前半年前三個月每個月兩次之後如果狀況比較穩定的話我們再會降成一次一次那又至少一次我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8108.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8136.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
每個月只有一次跟少保官接觸我們舉例這個個案是媒體報導的那我們看看他說舉例他原文阿戶說在榨汽毒品這種案件大概都判個他們都會互相告知啊判個假日生活輔導經少保官所幾個月出來再加個保護管束對少年來講不痛不癢沒有什麼約束力你就根本就是每個月去法院給關護人他不知道是少保官啦關護人是成年犯啦可以看一下根本看不出什麼東西請問少保官跟他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8137.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8162.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
各案接觸是要看什麼?要看什麼?關於報告的部分我們其實會就他的一些生活狀況還有就學就業的情形去做一些瞭解那就是書面的嗎?還是口頭的詢問?除了口頭以外我們還會有一些資料詢問好那我們來看一下會跟他瞭解一下他在學的狀況如果你們需要對各案有瞭解我們看保護處分的量有多大你看一下齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8163.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8189.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
在我目前看起來呢我們的這個最近5年來少年法院裁定保護處分的案件數呢單單是2023年到11月為止就超過8000多件那以我們編制數來講呢目前是有不足啦還有缺額目前還缺了10個那一個少保官要負責100個個案是不是這樣子你覺得100個個案一個月他要跟他見一次面要深入的去了解他的生活狀況你覺得夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8193.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8212.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以我們這次有提出那個就是希望可以增額的一個計畫所以你們認為編制不足要增額可是我跟你講啊 任何行政機關不管是你們的法官助理、司法事務官、檢察官助理、檢察事務官、檢察官助理或法官助理 通通人總都跟你講什麼秘書長 人總你們遇到這種事 人總都跟你講什麼目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8219.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8223.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
其實啊 刑事案件當中少年犯罪主要原因心理因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8249.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8270.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
差不多降了將近五成社會因素降了兩成那什麼是心理因素就他個人的問題那什麼叫社會因素外界的引誘幫派啦、陣頭啦、把他吸引過去那所以呢這兩個因素我們都看得清楚其實就是需要個人有人去關心他、有人去告、指導他是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8271.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8287.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這心理因素嘛,心理因素你沒辦法透過外面的社會連結的部分是的,社會連結跟他的心理因素,好,我們先來看那所以呢,其實我這邊提醒一下,司法院本身之外根深保護會在做什麼事情?那個秘書長,你知道根保護會在做什麼嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8289.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8308.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
深深保護就是對於比如說從矯正機關回到社區那要協助他能夠受社會適應所以說他的保護的範圍包括什麼受少年管訓處分執行完畢者還有在關護人關護中的少年因為這個法用詞沒有修過啦他在保護管署執行中有沒有爆發我們這個少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8309.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8328.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
當然有嘛我們查了一下他過去呢每年他的預算規模大概3億我們司法院邊預算補助他2億1還有他的其他收入但每年呢大概都用不完都還有剩我4千多萬累計的餘出呢已經還剩了7億多啊廳長你知道他有剩這麼多錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8329.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8347.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
不知道 我幫你整理出來了所以呢 我們來看一下 那麼既然基金會有餘裕他可不可以協助少年來保護管束業務呢 我們看一下他目前呢 他一整年每年我們有八九千件的保護處分案件他一整年做了多少件 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8349.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8378.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
服務的更生人更生人做了700多個少年的才120幾個您覺得秘書長這就要換你來請教一下了您覺得耕保會的能量可不可以拿來好好運用這個應該要互相支援互相支援所以你覺得司法院每年編2億1000萬給耕保會你覺得可不可以透過耕保會透過他們聘用包括專職的社工、心理或這些非少保官核心業務的人來協助少保官執行這個保護管束業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8379.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8380.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
法務部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8392.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8407.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們的徐市長,您覺得這個提議這個部分我們更生保護會我們是會來協助但是就是這些少年他們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8415.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8430.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
本來就比較沒有那麼的現在不是請他們來申請啦我現在意思是說我們司法院這邊的少保官的編制員有限他一個人要負責100個個案一個月要跟他們見面一次你們如果說我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8432.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8452.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
透過我們基金會的協助可以聘一些人力來協助少保官你覺得有沒有可行性?更生保護是需要當事人申請不過這一個部分我們會加強跟少年保庭橫向聯繫跟溝通我們會提升他的案量來我告訴你你們就現有法制來我們看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8453.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8466.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
來我們2019年齁那個我們的少司法修法才行政先行嘛對於負險少年偏差行為少年我們都列入我們的輔導之列往下看所以呢我們有一個叫少府會我們秘書長或次長你們知道少府會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8468.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8496.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
知道嗎 對不對少年輔導委員會的設置及輔導實施辦法第二條為什麼我特別提呢因為我過去在擔任地方政府的副首長的時候我當副縣長的時候我常常主持類似的會議但當時呢並沒有少輔會這種東西是後來我們修法之後少數法修法之後才增加的他這邊寫地方政府所設置的要整合包括什麼社政教育、衛政、護政、警政、民政、勞政、財政還有毒品危害的防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8497.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8525.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那所以呢他這些呢他這個聯繫中心他可以向少年法院提出處理的需求所以說在保護主任組結束後如果能夠整合少會的資源讓少年持續來接受協助我希望你們要善用地方這種這個聯繫匯報把耕保會的資源也納入到這個聯繫匯報當中讓耕保會不是代當事人提出申請而是第一由聯繫匯報提出所以我最後的訴求因為主委已經響鈴了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8526.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8536.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
三個訴求為了強化少年離開少官所、矯正學校或聯繫轉弦會議的機制請修正事法明定由少保官主責我們秘書長你可以考慮嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8538.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8556.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個部分本來就是由保護官去執行保護處分後面的聯繫跟轉銜會議的機制當然現在我們的少事法42條6項在保護處分執行中就是可以像委員你剛提到的包括我們未來可以跟更生保護會去做一個很好的聯繫那你已經講到第二點了 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8556.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8570.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
除了我們設法增補我們少保官的編制元額之外請你們評估運用多元的人力資源,比如說更生保護會來提供心理、社政的協助降低再犯,並一個月提供報告,可以嗎?你們跟法務部﹗我們會跟法務部這邊來洽商,好嗎?法務部可以嗎?我們可以聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8574.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8601.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
最後,評估保護處分結束後,要整合邵府會的資源,持續給予非行少年的協助。這個部分是不是也跟地方政府聯繫一下,了解目前地方政府設置了邵府會這樣的聯繫匯報之後,它的成效如何,可以嗎?是,委員,我們可以利用現在的邵司法的二級聯繫機制,就是地方政府跟地方法院提出一個他們的一個實心的成效評估報告。我們現在已經在運作當中,這個報告可以提出來。好,謝謝。謝謝民主黨,謝謝廳長,謝謝次長,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8608.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8629.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
謝謝等一下我們在11點的時候我們處理臨時提案那屆時如果有委員正在詢答就該位委員詢答完畢之後就即時進行處理下一位我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員下一位我們請張雅玲委員進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8640.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8651.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
謝謝主席 有請法務部次長麻煩徐次長徐次長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8652.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8678.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
市長早安,我今天想要討論兩個問題一個就是有關於我們現在有關於少年矯正學校的處遇實施條例以及少年關戶所處遇實施條例的一個進度就是在2017年我們的國事會議裡面就已經有提到說矯正機關要立刻進行遇證改革之修法包含了監獄刑刑法修正草案、羈押法修正草案以及少年矯正機關收容處遇實施條例草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8678.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8701.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
但是我知道到現在2024年7年過去了我們現在只有羈押法跟刑法都已經送進來了可是我們的少年矯正機關收容處遇實施條例到現在一直沒有送到立法院那現在也分成了兩個版本一個是少年矯正學校處遇實施條例這個地方好像2024今年3月已經送進來行政院了那我想要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8702.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8712.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
少年關戶所處遇實施的條例的狀況是怎麼樣呢?因為民間團體一直說他們好像都還沒有被邀請來討論可不可以幫我做個說明報告委員我們近期將辦理預告一個月那預告之後會邀請民間團體相關部會審慎的來研議草案並送行政院審查這關戶所嗎?在這個月內? |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8726.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8727.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我補充一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8745.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8760.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
目前是我們有在5月份通報行政院那我們用通報單通告行政院現在在核定中那核定之後我們就會進行預告社會各界就可以針對我們預告的內容提出建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8761.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8764.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
行政院合定之後我們會盡快來辦理因為我們現在在講這些不管這些修法我們都應該回到兩個重點就是說畢竟他們是少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8781.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8782.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
因為我知道他們現在好像放風的時間也都有所限制嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8799.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8817.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
這部分一定要在這個草案裡面去做草案跟實施上面都要去做一些修正再來第二個部分還是要以教育為處遇的核心那這部分就是說雖然現在是有教育部來邀請相關部會來成立少年矯正教育及輔導小組可是跟現在無實質功能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8818.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8818.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這兩個做一個提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8834.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8857.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那再來就是說我之前就有來追蹤有關於這個敦品中學的一個處置的一個策進行為的報告但是我發現所有的問題都在講學生學生長期依附偏差同才接觸幫派次文化具有衝動急躁性格施以告誡勞動服務之懲罰然後但是施以多數感化教育學生並無實質影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8859.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8875.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所以我想先問我們到底有沒有了解我們的學生在裡面的學生裡面到底有多少的小孩可能是特教生我們有沒有做這些評估我們是請矯正署的周組長報告委員我們四國各地學校裡面特教生大概有非常多位那將近是非常多位比例非常高 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8890.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8918.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
打七分之一啊因為他們從送到這個學校之後我們都會在入校之前再做一次檢定嗎?都有再做一次檢定?因為這個社會一直不停在變化嘛所以我只是說我們有沒有在追蹤這件事情是 我們有三級的輔導機制所以這個部分我們會在二級輔導這個地方特別來著力加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8918.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8945.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那我想知道我們這些特教生有得到相關的特教資源嗎?在裡面嗎?福島教師跟新設人員以外包括說我們有聘主代理教師等等這個部分我們都會來努力好 特教資源我們可以再詳細討論剛好因為你講到了代理教師我想就直接跳到這一題 剛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8947.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8971.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們現在正式老師有116人然後我們缺額55人我們用代理教師來處理的方式有將近八成可是代理教師其實是一年一聘我想要強調一個重點學生要跟大人建立一個關係才有可能去處理學生遇到的一些問題老師也才能夠真正的掌握學生的狀況才有可能去處理這些問題現在我們衍生的這些問題所以現在因為我們一年一聘的狀況根本沒有辦法培養信任感 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8977.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8992.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以這個如何讓正式的老師可以進來以及如何讓特教室的這些孩子們可以得到相關的資源我希望可以跟教育部一起來討論是不是可以引用教育部的IEP的方式來協助這些孩子那這些我們可不可以在會後約個時間來做一些討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8996.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9024.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
報告委員我們少角校的學科教師、輔導教師跟特教教師他是共用這個言語的那因為少角校的學生跟一般學校學生不一樣他大部分是家庭有問題的所以他的人數的進出是不是還有不定期性不是一般學校因此我們要保有一些彈性的切合但是我們聘用的這些代理教師都是合格的教師 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9025.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9044.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以這個是沒有問題只是是說我們在輔導教室還缺5位新設人員還缺18位這個部分我們會去努力再來爭取好因為關於這個我覺得我們可以再約個時間啦詳細討論第一個是代理教師的部分一年一聘這個問題你到底如何讓他持續的留在這邊這是一個很大的問題因為穩定性不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9045.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9059.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我想您一定非常同意嘛沒有穩定的老師如何會有穩定的學生這是一定非常肯定的一件事情第二件事情是說我們到底這一些老師要如何讓他招募足薪資待遇是不是一個問題這我想都要詳細的做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9062.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9089.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
一般來講新進的老師大概五萬多啦大家如果研究所學歷大概可以達到五萬八那個是指新進比較之前的那是對但是為什麼還是去找不到人嗎對吧所以是不是還有其他的對沒錯是對所以你都說到了重點嘛好但因為我時間已經到了所以我們再約時間來詳細討論好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9093.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9110.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好 那個本來我們是想說11點開始處理臨時提案但是因為剛剛那個行事廳這邊對那個文字的部分有一點意見所以我們是等在吳世堯委員巡打完畢之後我們再進行臨時提案我想說我把那個議程稍微變動一下好 那下一位我們請吳世堯委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9123.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9131.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我沒意見阿 你們要對調我沒有意見阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9156.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9158.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那我們先請衛福部保護司請保護司 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9188.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9204.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
林市長,我就快速跟衛福部討論一下我們辦公室一直在關心對於很多家長來說孩子們會被送到各式各樣的學習機構去不管是所謂的補習班、夏令營、冬令營或者是很多學校的社團課程甚至是學校的校隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9206.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9228.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這麼多孩子們會去學習的地方但是在這些場域當中這裡面大人是不是令家長感到放心的所以我們一直在跟衛福部追一箭查詢這件事情對不對好所以如果你很清楚往下看下一頁我們一直在問說只要是違反相關兒少全法的公佈姓名相關的時效性必須要保持所以我們從學校端這邊我們之前做了解決我們4月開了記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9230.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9244.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
但是我現在要問跟司法這邊有關的只要是相關的大人他的案件還在上訴的期限當中但是衛福部這邊如果沒有快速追蹤到相關加害人的姓名於是他就不會被公佈出來在CRC的網站對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9245.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9269.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
目前是這樣可是我們看到以各個縣市政府他們其實有一些縣市政府是有積極的作為例如說新北市跆拳道教練當時有一個呂教練他性侵學員在今年1月司法一審被判29年但是這個人5月提出上訴可是在5月提出上訴之前3月的時候新北市政府就自己先立刻做出行政處分把這個姓名公佈在CRC的網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9270.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9289.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
也就是說只要縣市政府有所作為只要衛福部有所作為相關加害者的姓名他就算還在司法上述期當中他應該都要先及時公布這個部分衛福部我想要知道你們的態度是什麼目前主委委員講了就是地方政府的執行上面有一些落差那我們其實近期也會再找地方政府針對這個部分來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9291.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9301.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好,就是除了之前我剛剛提到的教育部之外目前在這個司法階段這些加害者拜託你們也要積極那這個部分多久以內可以有相關的報告給我們辦公室? |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9303.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9326.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
因為我們是預計大概6月會找地方來開會6月才要開會喔所以在這6月之前很多這種加害者他還在不斷不斷上訴過程當中可是孩子們已經要被送去夏令營了現在很多家長都在報夏令營了我們根本就不知道在夏令營當中有沒有隱藏這些加害者然後他甚至是在上訴期間當中家長根本不知道欸你真的確定要到6月嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9328.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9356.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我們之前這個題目已經跟你們講很久了我不是今天第一天提耶是 那我想我們會盡快召開這個會議目前我們本來表定是六月初啦那這個委員 如委員提到的那如果六月初才跟縣市政府開會那你們希望多久以內跟他們開完會開完會之後多久以內你們可以確定他們的相關資料是可以上報到衛福部CRC保護兒少的網站讓家長可以一鍵查詢查到這個人他正有案件在上訴當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9357.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9380.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
是報告委員因為這個是涉及到地方執行的事項所以我們跟地方政府開會可是我們上次CRC的那個事情你們不是說有些事情你們會收回來衛福部這邊自己處理嗎是公告的這個行政的層面那我是說就認定上面因為有一些是涉及到刑事的案件它如果是在司法的程序當中那可能到底要到什麼樣的階段是地方政府可以做一個公告我想這個還是必須要 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9383.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9386.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以你們這邊之前有跟司法系統這邊有討論過這個問題了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9388.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9393.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我記得這個會議我們辦公室之前有跟司法系統追過他們好像也沒有肯認這件事情你們是不是應該要更積極告訴他們在行政裁罰上你們確實可以先做出相關的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9414.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9432.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
是 所以我說我們大概是6月初已經排定了會議要跟地方政府來就這個事情來做討論好 也就是說我再幫您整理一次在所謂一件事查詢的系統上對家長來說我如果就指認衛福部CRC這個網站當我要把我的小孩送去某些營隊的時候我要確保這營隊裡面的大人是不是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9433.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9457.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
過去有加害與兒少的經驗不管是性侵、性霸凌或是不當體罰對不對所以我到衛福部的網站上所以你們現在開始收集的有幼教的資料有教育部這邊的資料還有衛福部在行政裁罰上的資料可是在司法這段我們確實漏掉了對吧如果他上訴的時間是五年十年而這五年十年他還在民間繼續教課繼續擔任加害者的身份在陪在很多小孩身邊我相信這是很多家長不樂見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9458.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9458.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
謝謝衛福部,謝謝主席,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9485.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9485.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9492.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9515.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
臨時提案共議案請宣讀臨時提案一略以要求司法院會同法務部於兩個月內提供敦品中學113年3月27日脫序事件之去識別化評估研商報告內容須並含一特殊事件之判斷標準本次脫序事件之發生原因檢討二改制矯正學校後面對大型脫序行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9516.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9536.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
警力配置該如何因應．又該如何預防管理．各管理職權則如何劃分．是否有有權無責之情形．如何精進掌握少年在校動態．進而強化輔導．以充分落實法院與矯正學校間之資訊不漏接．及達到協助少年健全自我成長之目的．提案人委員吳宗憲等宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9553.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9554.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我們請吳宗憲委員提案說明謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9577.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9592.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
有關這個部分主要是我們看了今天司法院的報告有關報告第4點定定少年矯正學校特殊事件通報因應措施在第11001612號函裡面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9596.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9608.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
參考措施只有包括建置一些特殊事件的聯絡窗口還有強化法案跟矯正學校的橫向聯繫以及校保官在接獲通知後進行特殊事項的確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9610.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9638.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
他的重點是只有這幾個但是報告的內容他並沒有提及到對於特殊事項的判斷標準是什麼以及他的評估會議到底開過幾次會議的結論是什麼還有今年3月27號的敦品中學脫序事件他是不是屬於特殊的事件那敦品中學有無通報或者是這一次的延商會議的結論到底又是如何我想這些部分並沒有清楚的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9638.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9661.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以我在這邊希望能夠做成決議要求司法院跟法務部共同於兩個月內提供敦品中學113年3月27日脫序事件的去識別化的評估延伤報告那內容必須含有特殊事件的判斷標準還有本次脫序 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9662.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9663.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
主要的目的是如上﹖謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9696.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9709.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
針對臨時提案請問機關有無意見或說明請秘書長主席好那委員那沒有意見沒有意見就剛剛這個提案沒有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9711.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9718.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
剛您提到特殊事件這部分是由法務部矯正署跟會上特殊事件什麼時候要通報他們矯正機關會通報給我們法院端我們會依照少年矯正教育實施通則跟他們的一個設置準則我們會去考核這些執行的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9731.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9733.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
最尊重委員的一個提案,我們法務部沒意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9752.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9766.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
因為我剛剛是有同意說文字的部分有修改有照修改後就是原本是司法院會同法務部那我這邊是覺得OK就是司法院與法務部共同這樣這我是可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9769.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9786.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
主席我是不是可以詢問一下吳委員召委這個提案 其實我是同意啦 但是還是要釐清一下你這到底在整間 寒是你手上在發的你這到底這頁布到底是誰的 看起來是法務部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9787.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9802.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
是是,那個跟委員報告就說因為我們要發函去促請法官他發了指引指揮書之後也要去考核這個執行的狀況所以我們是去促請要求法官他要去做這樣的一個就是業務執行的一個考核 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9803.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9805.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9819.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9845.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
去進行這方面的處理那他這個事件呢如果他列為通報事件他就會用特殊紀念通知他的一個指揮執行的法院比如說這裡面提比如說帶頭的有兩個少年那這兩個少年假設說一個是新北發的指揮書那他就會通報給新北少年法庭那法官依照這個部分他就會去考核到底這樣的一個感化教育的執行有沒有依照他的個別處域去執行他的感化教育是 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9846.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9848.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
法務部沒有進到責任,司法院就不管我的事,我想也不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9861.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9878.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
其實跟委員報告我們過去其實監察院也發生很多的去這個就是正義彈劾就是一些矯正機關對少年的一些不當對待那這些企業我們都參考措施也是因為這樣去強化我們對這些孩子在少關所裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9878.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9892.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
要得到一個合理的對待甚至於矯正教育的一個對待以上那這部分就麻煩能夠依照我們臨時提案去處理因為其實有很多基層的那個少保官跟社工都跟我們抱怨說因為這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9893.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9893.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9924.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9948.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
如果沒有意見的話我們把文字修正成就是原本的臨時提案是要求司法院會同法務部於兩個月內文字修正成要求司法院與法務部共同於兩個月內那這個以上就做文字修正那如果沒有任何意見的話我們臨時提案的第一案依討論後修正之文字通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9961.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9966.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
是督導法務部啦欸 莊委員不是督導法務部是就這個事 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9968.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9981.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
事權的督導不是這樣啦拜託我們都念法律的我們一定懂怎麼會有司法院督導法務部這種沒有水準的話我不會講啦你沒看我現在笑眉眉我是在那裡是你剛才跟我說司法院的督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9984.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10007.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
法務部法務部要給司法院督導法務部派出所要給他督導安全者也不敢所以我們說很清楚是就這個事件的部分不是指他督導法務部啦這個這麼多的事我們不可能講這種話啦學長你誤會啦謝謝學長指教那接下來我們請吳士耀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10015.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10022.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長馬文部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10024.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10025.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
國會擴權法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10054.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10069.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
昨天最新的是國家人權委員會也發布了新聞稿他們以世界人權宣言以及公民與政治權利國際公約的相關規定很清楚的訂出三大反對國會擴權法案因為嚴重的違反國際人權公約 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10076.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10096.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
第一項立法權過度擴張有侵害人民生活與隱私之餘這一點在說的是這一次國會擴權法案職權刑事法4748條以及50條之一對於國會調查權的擴充都會侵害人民的生活與隱私你同意這一點嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10098.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10118.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們認為那個整個一個法案的一個制定必須要遵守權利一個分立尤其是五權憲法是各有職長我們是希望能夠合乎到憲法的權利分立原則好那世界人權宣言第17條規定的任何人之財產不容無理剝奪這也是國家人權委員會所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10120.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10137.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
已經通過的立法院職權刑事法第47第48條就違反了要求人民提供跟隱私相關甚至營業秘密專利權利等等而且法案中沒有明定其必要性及合理性所以你也同意這個觀點嗎?對不對?這的確是有爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10140.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10158.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
是有爭議的第三個呢國家人權委員會說法案所通過的第50條之一到之四都嚴重的違反世界人權宣言的第10條、11條以及公民與政治權利國際公約第14條也就是接受調查的一般民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10159.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10177.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
不得拒絕出席這是現在的法案擴權的內容以及如果要請律師陪同的話還需要由主持的主席來同意所以國家人權委員會的主張認為這一點是強害人民獨立無私及平等公開之司法權您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10178.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10197.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
的確有這個爭議好 謝謝部長的回答所以我們再一次在這裡透過論證國家人權委員會他以世界人權宣言以及我們所簽署的兩公約的原則都再一次的告訴我們這一次強行碾壓表決通過的國會擴權法案是違反人權的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10199.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10226.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那下一個呢我要就教於您的就是昨天我聽到在野黨的黨編說要成立國會的在野特徵組部長特徵組2007成立2017廢除嘛是立法院拿掉了法院組織法六三條之一那您認為現在在野黨所說的要再次恢復所謂的在野國會特徵組您的看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10227.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10231.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
所以沒有所謂什麼國會特徵組成立之必要更沒有合理性他更沒有合憲性嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10258.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10265.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這部分因為我們還是希望以憲法的權力分立原則來看這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10265.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10291.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我都不需要再論述過去特徵組所犯下的相關的違反通保法啦監察法相關的這個九月政爭的事情我都不用再贅述但是我今天在這裡呢我要再把歷史文件拿出來再說明一次也就是在過去要廢除特徵組在討論法院組織法六三條之一的時候當時的法務部長在這裡他提出了五大反對特徵組繼續存在的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10293.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10321.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
是說呢第一特徵組影響檢查機關內部監督機制對不對yes這個的確是有這個問題那當初的第二點宣言呢違反行政法上機關與職務不兩立的原則對不對依舊存在嘛第三個法務部反對有特徵組是因為呢概括條款明定特徵組的事務管轄是違反了法律明確性的原則這個理由繼續存在嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10322.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10350.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
第四點呢檢察官是具有司法屬性所以沒有再設特徵組的必要對不對所以這部分那個已經就政策已經決定已經決定嘛最後一項呢當時的法務部說這個所謂的特徵組是違反在意程序及案件的管考制度所以法務部期期以為不可所以過去的主張如此制度是一套的司法的精神是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10351.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10364.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
所以過去既然特徵組被廢除也被立法院自己通過法律來廢除的話現在更沒有所謂成立國會在野特徵組織可能及必要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10366.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10366.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
謝謝部長的回答所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10389.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10391.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
謝謝您今天回應我的一些主張跟說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10415.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10418.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
今天回到今天的主題 強化社會安全網 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10420.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10448.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
現在呢我跟您分享我長期在教育文化委員會那我一直在持續精進的校園三級的輔導機制就是三級心輔機制但是一再的從發展性輔導到介入性輔導到處遇性輔導其實是層層失靈的因為幾乎有六成以上有自殺傾向或是他真正自殺未遂或真的是不幸離開我們的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10449.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10473.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
6成以上是沒有被新府機制接住的所以教育部現在正在全面精進檢視現在的校園三級輔導機制下一頁那今天的主題矯正學校也是三級輔導機制就部長您認為現在的矯正學校的三級輔導機制他當然適用跟一般校園不同他有更特殊性的需求現行的三級機制您認為運作得宜嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10476.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10489.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
目前的運作我想在署務上我是不是可以請那個我們角證的周署長來待會回答好我來那署長您親自在這是一個核心的議題您自己覺得運作得宜嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10491.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10512.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
報告委員我們的三級機制在第一級它是指一般性的是這個一般性是由班導師還有教導人來負責這個制度我都知道您就回答我現在三級您認為在我們矯正學校在三級的機制裡面我們覺得輔導教師這方面切合還有五位我們必須要來爭取要來補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10514.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10517.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我再次來對應教育部的現在正在修學生輔導法吳思堯提案希望能夠讓大學裡頭的學生輔導是1比900 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10530.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10548.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那這是教育部從1比1200要進化到1比900現在法律還沒修正過但是都用公務預算去補強它那現在呢要進入這個核心我剛剛的問題跟命題就是說現在矯正學校的三級輔導其實有沒有運作得宜他就要關乎我們的輔導老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10550.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10562.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
的比例原額是不是夠特教老師是不是夠以及專業新設人力這三大塊嘛現行的矯正學校的輔導老師是1比25特教老師是1比21專業新設人力足夠嗎來 署長您再一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10571.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10574.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
新社人員不足過18名、輔導老師缺5名、心理師、社工師缺18名、特教足夠、剛補足 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10591.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10618.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
您又按到鈕了特教這個部分沒問題所以這是重中之重部長您剛上任我就用這一頁來告訴您現在的輔導老師還缺5個然後特教老師是一直補一直補才補上的新社人力還缺18個這是新任部長很重要的工作矯正學校我們不能放棄任何一個孩子這部分您承諾要多久可以來補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10620.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10640.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我們盡速來補強不行 你要給我一個時間點我跟你講喔 教育部喔還沒有修法之前喔就用預算的方式去來補強喔沒有修法先用預算的方式來補強喔現在大學已經補強了將近八成他是用公務預算來編列喔你可以突破原額的限制你現在問題是出債 聘不到人還是沒有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10650.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10673.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這部分我們是不是請那個困難這部分我們是不是請教證書那個因為這個115年才有辦法到位好部長我這樣子我們時間到了您一個月內去提出如何補強的做法包括使成我分享給你為什麼左邊右邊我要告訴你教育部的機制學生輔導法是要修法的還沒有修法前教育部就用他的公務預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10674.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10693.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
想方設法用公務預算去補貼學校補強他的幸福人力可以從1比1200進化到1比900現在已經八成的學校還沒修法前他自己就用國家給的預算來補強矯正學校的數量是少的比起教育部要面對一百多個大學 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10695.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10697.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
一個月內提出我們的方案好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10713.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10714.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們接下來請羅志強委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10744.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10745.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
吳宗憲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10758.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10780.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
委員好好 部長好 部長 這樣啦 本來我本來想直接今天要跟你討論一下司法的輔導這個問題齁但是因為剛剛你又講了一堆我本來以為說 這國會改革已經翻頁了我們今天大家都不要來談這件事我們就 今天早上有記者問我問我想法 我就說 完全尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10781.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10810.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
行政院要不要復議 要不要那個以及民進黨團要不要申請釋憲我說這個是憲法的規定我完全尊重我們也不應該有一句不應該的說不可以這麼做的話出來因為這就是法治我們是法治國我是念法律我非常尊重法律但是我覺得翻頁就翻頁了為什麼還要在那邊扯這個那部長我在司法圈20年您的狀況我比其他112位的立委更了解您的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10812.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10837.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
更了解您的想法以及您的一些想法的傾向我想我比誰都更了解但是我一直希望一個新的內閣我都期待我們就依法行政然後能夠中立的處理任何一件事情而不是一搭一唱的這樣回答沒關係那我覺得就就算了我還是尊重你是部長但是我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10839.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10861.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
今天我來講一個東西我覺得國會改革到現在如果真的還要再來講的話我跟你講我真的覺得執政黨是創意大賽這段時間從迴憲亂政一路延伸到抗中保台、舔共習近平到現在連世界人權都跑出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10862.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10891.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這根本就是創意大賽這不是在討論法條啦我就說了90%我們說討論法案的時間都在講抗中保台沒人跟我談法條然後現在對外說黑箱立法都不談法條我說真的我沒有辦法理解還好現在國會都有直播大家可以回去一條一條拿出來放出來聽是誰在亂說話好那再來我還要再講一個東西可不可以不要再秀下線了 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10892.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10919.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
你拿一個國會特徵組來談是不是違反權力分立我覺得這是不是笑死人中天電視台有一個叫民間特徵組那你說民間怎麼可以施設集團搞特徵組他這是一個理念是一個名詞嘛那你不要叫立法院的什麼特徵組那你叫做超級特徵組可不可以改個名字嘛這跟權力分立有什麼關係部長你可以這樣一搭一唱我真的服了你 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10920.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10943.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
特徵組的法律依據是法院組織法他是一個法制的機關法制設計下的機關這個立法院他依據自己如果立法成立後的生效後的調查權所進行的調查他把自己叫做我們組一個團體叫立法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10944.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10970.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
在野特徵組這個跟權力分立有什麼關係部長你不能講這種話我們都念法律的我剛剛在那邊聽我不會去打斷在發言的立委的說話時間但是我沒有辦法接受你剛剛那樣的回答這跟權力分立有什麼關係那如果你這樣講中天的民間特徵組賴麗英主持的那個節目是不是那個就叫民間失色行堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10971.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10999.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
叫做施行正義嗎這就不是嘛這是一個名詞他如果今天國會改革法案過了他就是去行使一個法律上面給他的調查權讓立法委員去行使這個權利嘛那至於在野的立法委員他們想叫什麼名字這個也沒有設在法院組織法裡面也沒有設在任何一個法律裡面請問這個違反什麼權利分立原則部長從你嘴巴講出這種話 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11000.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11017.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我這真的不知道接下來我要怎麼去面對你跟你談這些接下來法律的事情因為我覺得你基本上你的立場就不中立啊不然你告訴我這個違反什麼權力分立原則再來我上次也很欣賞你講的一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11018.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11033.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
法務部在釋憲之前你們是不能講什麼法條他是不是你們不能做或者是你法務部跳出來這個違憲我不幹這是不行的嘛一定是大法官宣告違憲我們才說這個違憲所以不能做所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11034.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11050.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
既然我們都是念法律的我們都非常重視程序正義以及各種東西那是不是法務部對於國會改革法案的逼評可不可以麻煩我們依照一般的程序來如果行政院要提什麼復議那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11052.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11072.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
新南接受因為這個是他憲法正確條文裡面的權利如果要釋憲我們也新南接受因為這個是國家法律給他的權利那就那我們都這樣做就好嘛而不是你在這邊講這個我真的覺得你剛剛的那個講法齁我真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11073.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11095.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我真的覺得你會認定說這個是違反權利分立我真的我不能接受我完全不能接受那也不要在那邊騙我而且部長我跟您報告在座好多法官檢察官會看直播的也很多法官檢察官很多法律學者你這樣講他們聽了以後會怎麼再嘲笑我們今天在這邊做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11097.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11110.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
所以我沒有辦法接受你認為再也如果成立一個再也自己成立一個特徵組這個叫做違反權利分離我沒有辦法接受而且這個東西也是在如果今天國會無法 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11112.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11134.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
的立法院調查權成立生效之後他才有可能依據法律去做這個事情那這個又違反了什麼權力分立這個是法務部可以講的嗎你要講至少改天您當大法官的時候那您再來跟我們上課告訴我們這個為什麼違反權力分立我沒意見因為大法官本身就釋憲那今天我真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11135.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11149.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我跟您報告,我沒有辦法接受您的這個說法另外我剛剛講的,我說真的是創意大賽那另外,說這些法案違反世界人權、違反什麼我剛剛講的什麼違憲亂證,我說這真的是創意大賽 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11156.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11174.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
今天林卓水會出來講那一句話說這個東西是民進黨奮鬥30年2016年以前的民進黨法案也是這樣就你突然8年之後告訴我這個東西這麼的該死、十惡不赦不但違憲還跟習近平勾串然後還違反世界人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11174.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11200.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我說天啊那2016年以前你這個執政黨你在幹什麼你竟然要立這個法出來你竟然要搞這樣的立法結果8年後在野黨完成你的當年的志願結果你現在回過頭來說在野黨這麼做是不對我真的聽不下去喔不好意思部長我剛剛講話比較重一點我還是非常尊敬您是我以前的長官但是我真的覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11203.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11224.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
就是說行政還是要中立啦因為我覺得不管什麼作為國家國家能夠穩定一定是制度是長治久安制度長治久安的狀況就是不管任何政黨執政應該就是走同一套制度我自己今天我不管在哪一個政黨但我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11225.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11249.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們應該一起對付的是壞人而不是協助那個執政的人這我對於司法的見解啊所以這段時間不管其他的同事跟我談什麼司法的案件我第一件事一定是維護法院以及檢察署的立場我這不能干涉這種個案都不能干涉不能多說我一直以來我個性都這樣所以部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11253.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11279.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
不好意思喔 就是我說比較重 但是我剛說的都是憑我良心講的話因為我 從心裡我不認為你講一個名詞就叫做違反權利分立所以我才會贏了中天電視台那個節目的例子那如果你要這樣子 那我們我們就說 那是不是 那我們改個名字嘛就不要叫特徵組 叫超級特徵組部長回答法 要回答法部長 請問一下 為什麼違反權利分立 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11285.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11286.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
你剛剛不是這樣講嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11314.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11342.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以部長我跟你說啦齁你現在我跟你講這是公開直播的我們沒有任何人在帶風向這是公開的我現在就如果您敢在這邊直接講那沒關係你就講齁我現在我現在知道一件我現在看出來一件很明白的事情啦就是有人非常的無聊司法特徵組是法院組織法依據它所設立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11343.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11371.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那至於民間或者是其他黨派或者是在野的人或者是誰喜歡自己組一個說我們大家來搞一個兄弟會叫做特徵組這個跟違反權力分立都沒有關係這個特徵組跟權力分立是沒有關係法院組是要有沒有規定特徵組跟權力分立沒關係對沒有錯沒有錯但是他剛剛問你的不是這樣他剛剛問你是說在野黨要成立一個在野的特徵組然後在那邊扯權力分立部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11372.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11379.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我跟你講不然你今天回去再看一下剛剛他問你然後我就當作你剛剛答錯啦但是我跟你講我從心裡我就不這麼認為我如果認為我如果今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11382.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11406.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
你今天你立法院的這個修法過了之後在被大法官宣告違憲之前其實他的任何作為都是有他的法律依據至於說在野的這些人他們要組一個團隊自己要叫什麼名字那個是他高興就好嘛這個跟權力分立根本沒有任何關係至於立法院的調查權跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11409.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11433.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
司法的調查權彼此之間有沒有權力上面的五權分立上的的矛盾這個由大法官來解釋部長應該是這樣吧所以我說這樣我不認同你剛剛說的啦那我覺得如果你要用這個態度一路走下去那沒關係我講我們也不是傻子啦大家都是念法律出身的那我們就依法論法那 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11436.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11462.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
如果我的個性就這樣如果我今天在這邊講錯任何一句話歡迎你們就拿法律學者的話來打我那我這個人我不喜歡說謊我不喜歡亂講話我更不喜歡明知故問或明明知道是這樣故意裝作不懂的來帶風向我其實很不屑幹這種事情我所有事情我的個性直來直往嘛做錯事就認錯我個性是這樣子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11463.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11481.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
不是說有一些人今天法律規定明明不是這樣人家做的明明不是這樣然後可以帶風向扯一些五四三我今天看到的就是這樣子啦所以我上次人家問我問題我才會說說真的我以前辦過的壞人可能沒有算了那個話不講下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11486.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11488.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們下一位請傅坤祺委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11523.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11551.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
主席我想今天本來是一個滿嚴肅值得社會關懷的議題我想召委今天排這個議題是非常值得大家來讚嘆鐵窗少年如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯還有社會落實復歸以及社會安全網的專報但是我剛剛聽到部長的答覆我真的覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11552.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11569.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
政治在這個地方可以無限上綱是不是請部長來一下好不好謝謝麻煩部長部長就職多久了還沒滿兩個禮拜應該說還沒有滿10天部長您所在的位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11581.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11607.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
是全國的檢調體系都為你馬首是瞻你要特別謹慎你的言行尤其這在是神聖的國會殿堂不要在這裡配合執政者來營造你的立場跟帶一些錯誤的社會示範讓下面企業校友 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11609.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11633.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
逢迎拍馬迎合上議司法的風氣要調整我想部長首當其衝要以身作則你認為對不對司法本來就是本來不是逢迎拍馬那我想這是我們堅守的一個信念原則好 謝謝那請問一下您今天是部長還是大法官我是部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11635.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11658.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
你可以取代大法官的職務在這裡發言嗎?立法院的修法提案三讀通過的案子是可以你來決定有沒有符合三權分立嗎?有沒有符合毀憲亂證嗎?是你可以決定的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11661.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11689.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我想這個是社會上是有一些的意見社會上有意見一個法律人在沒有明確的法律出來以前你可以在國會殿堂以部長的名義取代大法官來表示大法官的意見嗎我們沒有要取代大法官的意見那請你謹言慎行部長我請教一下現在你兼任部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11691.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11712.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
現在有這麼多的青少年犯罪越來越嚴重包括孩子可以去把人家割喉台中捷運有隨機的商人案我們的教育就出問題這8年教育已經出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11713.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11732.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我們的法制面上面 法制面上面部長有沒有一些想法針對今天的主題有沒有什麼想法能夠對青少年的犯罪能夠降低而不再犯有沒有什麼想法 簡短說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11734.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11755.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我們法務部所收治的就是屬於非性的一個少年少年刑事案件的一些的一些的處罰的少年那我們所掌管我們在整個社會安全網我們是在收治這些少年至於整個少年的一個預防的這部分那可能我們就是整個社會安全網有各權責的一個部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11756.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11781.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
大家的共同來做那以法務部來講我們就既然有非性有觸犯這個少年我們在少關所或者是在少年矯正學校那我們就是依照這些的社會安全網的這些一個理念我們就在就學的這部分我們希望他不要有能夠做一個銜接而不是說來在一個一個收治的過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11782.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11786.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這個矯正的部分本來就是法務部非常重要的一個課題跟一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11811.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11839.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
現在這個毒品防治的部分在青少年犯罪也是持續在61.94%這個青少年未成年的部分現在還是這個犯罪率達到61.9%的佔比毒品防治今天時間有限本席要求你是新任的部長要新的氣象對青少年毒品的防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11841.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11865.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
如何嚇死請部長這個部分給本席一個正式的書面報告因為這個事情你講了很多年但是毒品的問題一直沒有下降下來而且再犯率不斷的發生這個從一個叫防治一個叫做矯正之後如何再回籠 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11867.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11894.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
本席這樣講得清楚嗎請這個正式的資料完整一點給本席因為本席一定還會再請教另外對於矯正的部分本席還是要拜託部長現在我們整體的矯正處遇的整體的情況為什麼很多再犯率還是這麼高原因就是這些人到了社會上以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11896.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11922.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
還是要有一計能夠謀生現在在裡面是包括什麼指責那個什麼指連花這些東西在社會上他是沒有辦法銜接的我過去在我過去在花蓮縣政府服務我讓地方所有的這些公務機關甚至軍營軍人、國防部我們都合作不用到45歲退伍我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11924.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11953.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
再營就給他第二專長訓練都由縣政府來支援不管是噴刃不管是汽修甚至修飛機很多大廚甚至園藝都甚至有機農業栽種都培養他們能夠有一技再生當時也協助國防部讓更多的人願意從事軍旅未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11955.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11975.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
不只45歲、48歲也有終身縫還有第二專長他可以做其他的收益所以部長本席提醒你要讓這些人不要再犯你一定要讓他有一技之長能夠在社會上生存下去要去思考現在的小鎮教育到底哪裡有出問題為什麼再犯率會這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11977.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12004.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
有沒有問題這部分我來努力我想我對這個議題是很有興趣我本來就是在做預防的這部分我本來就是有一直在長期做一個關注希望部長一個完整的一個提到的這些計值的這部分我們會來再檢視完整的一個計畫給本席本席很樂意跟你一起來討論把這個再犯的防制能夠把它提升起來另外我們還是要問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12005.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12032.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
法務部本來就應該要中立本席再強調一下司法是國家社會最後正義的防線一定要秉持公正我們請秘書長一起好嗎?抱歉抱歉部長、秘書長本席請教一下這個透過中央社這麼多媒體報導本席不請教不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12034.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12062.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
一個郭台銘的事件參選總統預備賄選罪全國發生數十起幾乎都是醫科罰金都了事唯獨現任的屏東縣的議長這不是重罪為什麼收押了五個月然後現在起訴以後依然在收押 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12064.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12091.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
會選的事件有需要起訴以後還要收押嗎秘書長請回答向委員說明說這個涉及到個案不是不是不是我們一個政堂你不能永遠以個案來回答那今天既然是已經起訴了那如果起訴的資料不齊全為什麼可以起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12092.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12097.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那既然已經起訴證據齊全那為什麼還要收押請問一下秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12101.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12122.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
國際人權兩公約不是無罪推定嗎?是不是?是不是?不是!秘書長!北溪請教你嘛!國際人權兩公約是不是無罪推定?是不是?無罪推定這個應該是一個代言者一個代言者!好!那既然已經起訴了應該證據齊全啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12124.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12138.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
為什麼還在收押因為那質疑說個案他要收押好好好你現在一直在強調個案那本席就不現在不跟你談個案也請教秘書長也請教部長請問一下各媒體報導這不是誰講的是在法院正式公開審理錄音檔有聽到檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12155.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12179.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
對偵訊人說大局為重給點時間來處理查證這句其實也還好啦那請問一下部長部長檢察官講的大局什麼叫大局我不了解這個個案這個大局不是這不是個案本席請教你一個正常檢察官會不會講什麼叫大局 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12181.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12206.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
什麼叫大局我對案情不了解這個大局是這個媒體已經報導這樣子了這不是說你了不了解了不了解你還是要給本席今天沒有回答還是要有書面回答這是貴部的檢察官對著偵訊人錄音錄影的情況是要講的所以才在法院開宴的時候聽到錄音檔是這樣公開審理在場所有的記者都聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12208.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12230.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以共同的報導 國會當然要關注什麼叫大局請部長回答我們再來瞭解好好 你再瞭解再過來第二句話涉及政治案件不是一個人可以決定的什麼叫政治案件檢察官心裡還有政治嗎不是依法辦案嗎這部分我們再來瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12234.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12236.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
反正社會注意的事情我們都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12260.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12289.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
再講一次檢察官說這是政治事件不是一個人可以決定的那請問誰可以決定是部長可以決定還是誰可以決定錄音檔就這樣播出來了檢察官這樣說的檢察官這樣說的再過來上面要同意不是要同意上面都同意都那不是一個人他們上面不是一個人都同意再放人上面有哪些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12290.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12319.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
要都同意是哪些人部長這個我不清楚個案現在已經不是個案了這個已經是矚目事件已經涉及司法調查是否公正這是很嚴重的問題這不是個案司法調查是否公正部長今天你可以回答你不清楚請你 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12320.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12339.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
把這個案子給本席一個正式的書面回答本席今天正式提出在這裡錄音錄影我們在國會正式的來詢問這樣的問題檢察官可以這樣做嗎檢察官可以這樣做嗎檢察官可以這樣做嗎政治犯案的檢察官還是國家的檢察官部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12351.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12351.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
楊瓊英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12372.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12378.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
郭益群委員、郭益群委員、郭益群委員、審發會委員、審發會委員、審發會委員所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12391.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12412.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
委員質詢時,要求提供的相關資料,會以書面答覆請相關機關進出送銷,個別委員跟本會。部長,我還是一樣,就是一件事情,我還是蠻肯定您的一個政策,就是對於三專生再留任的政策,這個在基層檢察官反應非常好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12413.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12432.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
這真的是可以留下我們目前是戰力最強的檢察官因為戰力強的檢察官很多都走掉那您的這個制度真的是有效可以留下很多有戰力的檢察官那光就這一點我覺得我不敢說叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12433.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12433.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
致謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12451.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12475.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
委員執行時,要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆,請相關機關緊速送交個別委員及本會。委員陳俊宇、謝榮介、沈發慧所提書面執行均列入記錄,刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。本次會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12486.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12487.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
《法定人數不足》 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12522.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12522.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
本集完 |