| IVOD_ID |
15964 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15964 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-26-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-29T09:00:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-29T12:10:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:09:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685a75a1f35c7302ecdcd7d6d6b6b2497a83be8d109af184be4872bccd808b50f0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-29T09:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查
(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。
(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。
(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查
(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。
(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。
(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。
(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。
【一（九） ：如經復議，則不予審查】
【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【討論事項綜合詢答】
【5月27日、29日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:00:02 - 12:10:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1878.381 |
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1906.323 |
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現在開會本日議審為繼續審查《就業服務法》部分條文修正草案及八案以及審查委員王玉敏等17人擬具《就業服務法》第四十六條條文修正草案繼續審查《勞動基準法》第五十條條文修正草案及四案有關本日會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在介紹在場委員及列席官員蘇清泉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1908.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1936.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
陳昭芝委員林月琴委員介紹出席官員勞動部何佩珊部長勞動力發展署蔡孟良署長職業安全衛生署林玉堂副署長勞動關係司王厚偉司長勞動保險司陳美女司長勞動福祉退休司謝倩倩司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1938.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1963.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
勞動條件及就業平等司黃維稱施長勞動法務司傅惠芝施長衛生福利部長期照顧司祝建方施長護理及健康照護士陳清美檢認濟證社會及家庭署吳怡山科長國民健康署謝佩君檢認濟證內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1966.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1992.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
移民署移民事務組曹固林副組長國土管理署營建管理組曾勝峰科長經濟部產業發展署林德昇主任秘書中小及新創企業署陳奕光科長經濟部人事處王煥穎專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1996.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2022.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
行政院公共工程委員會技術處陳義昌檢任計政農業部漁業署漁業人力組謝勝雄科長原住民組委員會社會福利處董敬芬副處長財政部國庫署工股管理組李信芬副組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2025.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2051.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
行政院主計總處公務預算處廖玉琳專門委員國防部人事參謀次長室人事勤務處王本美副處長教育部人事處陳佩君專門委員國民及學嫌教育署古明哲主任權訓部法規司林承梅專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2053.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2069.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處林延臻副處長現在請宣讀提案條文內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2076.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2100.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
就業服務法部分條文修正草案委員林德福等19人提案委員楊瓊瓔等16人提案委員馬文君等25人提案委員吐春吉等17人提案委員黃建斌等20人提案委員呂玉玲等16人提案委員盧憲毅等17人提案委員鄭正前等17人提案委員王玉敏等17人提案現行法條文對照表委員林德福等19人提案委員楊瓊瓔等16人提案第46條 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2103.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2125.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
增訂第四項顧主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作被看護者之資格條件若年齡滿80歲以上得免經醫療機構之專業評估予以現行法同委員馬文君等25人提案委員呂玉玲等16人提案第46條增訂第四項顧主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作被看護者凡年齡滿80歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2126.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2147.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
得免經醫療機構之專業評估予以現行法同。委員圖春吉等17人提案第46條修正第一項第九款至第十一款如下。九、家庭幫庸工作。十、家庭看護工作。十一、機構看護工作。現行第十款、第十一款以列為第十二款、第十三款。修正第三項守具為 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2148.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2172.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
顧主一第一項第八款至第十二款規定聘僱外國人令增訂第四項如下顧主一第一項第十款規定聘僱外國人被看護者若年齡滿八十歲以上得免經醫療機構之專業評估予以現行法同委員黃建斌等二十人提案第四十六條增訂第四項如下顧主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作被看護者凡年齡滿八十歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2173.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2196.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
或70歲至79歲患有癌症二期以上者得免經醫療機構之專業評估予以現行法同。委員王玉敏等17人提案第46條修正第一項第九款違九家庭幫庸、機構看護及家庭看護工作令增訂第四項如下。僱主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作、被看護者年齡滿80歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2197.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2224.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
或符合其他經主管機關認定之事項得免經醫療機構之專業評估予以現行法同。委員盧憲一等17人提案第46條第二項後段增列但前項第九款之家庭看護工其被看護者具有原住民身份者其評估與認定方式應會同衛生福利部及原住民族委員會定之予以現行法同。委員鄭正前等17人提案第46條現行第三項已列為第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2227.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2257.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
令增訂第三項如下顧主依前項審查標準聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作若被看護者年滿80歲以上免經醫療機構專業評估予以現行法同委員圖春吉等17人提案第47條修正第一項守具為顧主聘僱外國人從事前條第一項第八款至第十三款規定之工作予以現行法同委員圖春吉等17人提案第48條修正第六項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2257.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2285.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
中央主管機關對從事第四十六條第一項第八款至第十三款規定工作之外國人得規定其國別及數額予以現行法同。委員圖春吉等17人提案第53條修正第三項莫具為不得從事同條項第八款至第十三款規定之工作並修正第四項守具為受聘務從事第四十六條第一項第八款至第十三款規定工作之外國人予以現行法同。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2286.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2297.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
委員圖春吉等17人提案第54條修正第一項守據為僱主聘僱外國人從事第46條第一項第8款至第13款規定之工作予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2299.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2326.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
委員呂玉玲等16人提案第55條修正第一項文字第八款至第十款為第八款、頓號第十款刪除現行第三項並將現行第四項至第七項以列為第三項至第六項予以現行法同委員圖春季等17人提案第59條修正第一項守據為外國人受聘僱從事第46條第一項第八款至第十三款規定之工作予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2327.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2343.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
繼續宣讀勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案委員外美林等36人提案委員徐宇珍等18人提案委員馬文君等20人提案委員邱若驊等16人提案現行法條文對照表委員外美林等36人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2344.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2358.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
女工分免前後應停止工作基於產假12星期,認成3個月以上流產者應停止工作基於產假4星期。前項女工受雇在工作6個月以上者停止工作期間工資照給。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2359.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2375.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
若分免第二胎以上子女以1.2倍發給受僱未滿6個月者減半發給若分免第二胎以上子女以7成發給前項女工分免第二胎以上子女加大至2成工資僱主得向中央主管機關申請補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2376.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2395.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
委員徐玉珍等18人提案女性勞工分娩前後應停止工作基於產假12星期認成3個月以上流產者應停止工作基於產假4星期認成2個月以上未滿3個月流產者應使其停止工作基於產假1星期認成未滿2個月流產者 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2397.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2413.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
應使其停止工作及於產假5日。前項女性勞工受雇工作在6個月以上者停止工作期間工資照給未滿6個月者檢辦發給。委員馬文君等20人提案第一項前段女工分娩前後應停止工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2414.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2437.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
及於產假12星期第二項後段未滿6個月者得案比例減少發給但不得低於工資之半數予以現行法同委員秋洛華等16人提案修正文字女工為女性勞工第一項前段女性勞工分免前後應停止工作及於產假12星期予以現行法同宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2441.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2464.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好那現在我們就開始進行討論事項的第一案有關於就業服務法部分條文修正草案計9案進行逐條審查那現在請委員表示意見有沒有委員有意見修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2469.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2494.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
對,修正東西就直接討論,不用再宣讀了,直接討論就好,有併進來。好,來。沒有發嗎?委員會發給大家?禮拜一有發?禮拜一不是已經有發過一次嗎?那今天誰送?今天有新增的嗎?有委員的嗎?新增的在哪裡?印給大家?還在印是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2499.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2500.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
剛剛才收到? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2502.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2527.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好 那沒有關係 那個部分就是持續應好不好 那委員還是可以先表達意見 來請陳昭芝委員 蘇星泉委員謝謝 謝謝主席 我看各位委員們提案裡面的共識度是蠻高的 80歲的長者因為往往面臨這個身體的功能下降變差 那他們身上的疾病在科學的證據來看也是相對比較多 而且可能是服藥最多的一個族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2528.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2554.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那他們需要長期持續的照顧的比例非常的高假設這個巴士量表是沒有辦法完全來反映他們的目前的這個需求所以如果能夠免除所謂的巴士量表的評估那有很多個優點第一個簡化他整個申請的程序對這個家庭看護那能夠減輕該家庭成員的負擔因為他的家庭成員可能都是在工作的生產力非常重要的一群 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2554.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2559.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
另外就是能夠避免延誤這些長者獲得即時照顧的這個機會所以把申請門檻的降低是有效能夠緩解那外籍看護的這個他們的貢獻就基礎的生活照顧情感陪伴支持等其實讓長者得到這個安全跟舒適感這也 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2571.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2590.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
檢小孤獨感這個基本上是大家都肯定的所以這個部分我們本黨還有我們本席是我們都是完全支持這個80歲以上這一次就跟很多位委員他們得免禁醫療機構之專業評估那主席我另外有一個有關這個家庭幫傭的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2591.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2607.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為現在有一些人他雖然還沒有到80歲可是他是一個弱雖然相對是老弱的家庭他們是在行動上或是在身體體力上雖然他不一定有特定的一個疾病那這些人我們是要預防他發生小意外譬如跌倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2607.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2625.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那如果說預防是用於治療因為他如果發生了這個意外我們都了解他大概整個身體狀況就會直接走下坡每況愈下那後來要需要用到的健康醫療資源也是都存在的所以我們本期想額外建議就是說對於家庭幫傭的部分就是80歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2626.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2654.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
當然這個地方要經過一些評估剛剛我談的我們談的是家庭看護那80歲以上的這個直系血清就是他的長者經過醫療機構以這個團隊的方式來做評估那有輕度依賴照護者我們希望在這個部分也可以考慮來放寬這個家庭幫傭的部分就是不要讓這一群人他能夠就是說我們就預期他一旦他在比較一個衰弱狀況下他跌倒摔跤等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2655.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2676.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
後續的問題其實就都產生了好謝謝主席好請蘇星泉委員好來蘇星泉委員請上那個我們是不是可以先休息個5分鐘因為大家手上都沒有資料沒關係先讓委員發言來對啦裝的事情不要今天又起來說了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2679.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2687.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我這邊要特別強調我是一個臨床醫師我們一長久以來最大的困擾就是八十兩票 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2689.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2713.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那這一次總統大選事實上三個候選人都有同樣的共識就是要給換款啦當然也很感謝那個時候的薛瑞文還有當時的副總統賴清德他們馬上從善如流馬上就改善這是事實那也要給他們拍拍手那這個法是我是覺得這個法應該是要修一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2714.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2740.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為80位醫生現在老而慘、老而病病而貧所以台灣現在碰到的問題一大堆的內科疾病都摻雜在一起老人家我們最怕的是什麼呢?最怕摔倒、跌倒跌倒之後骨頭就斷斷就臥床不然就開刀所以一個看護來告護他這是應該的不然的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2741.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2745.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件件 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2761.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2787.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以很困擾那寫這個80量表對臨床醫師是一個壓力壓力以前35分那是很嚴格那現在有80歲以上又放寬到50分到55分鬆一點那所以這個法這個法我是覺得要修啦那另外一個我要請教部長就是說這個盧憲毅他有提那個原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2788.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2805.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
嚴志明到底說不一樣?因為嚴志明是用55歲當退休我們是65歲他們是55歲所以盧嫻儀的這個想法是可能是是不是要他們的更往前這個部長你要注意一下以上好 謝謝你會請外媒嗎?好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2813.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2817.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2830.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2854.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
大概將近有63person還是在80歲以上事實上整個狀態是比較好的可是現在我們很擔心的就是有關重症的一些重度需求的家庭他就一再的申訴表示移工會比較喜歡去照顧有輕度有自主能力的人人都是會去挑工的所以這樣子他們一直都留不住移工的狀態裏邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2855.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2856.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
來 鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2889.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2905.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席、各位委員、這個還有勞動部的所有的官員有關四十六條的部分這個除了盧憲伊委員在這個第二項增加半書的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2906.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2925.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
但前項第九款之家庭康復工其被康復者既有原住民身份者其評估以認定方式應會同衛生福利部及原住民組委會定制。這個部分上次質詢的時候這個按照這個勞動部的當時的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2928.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2941.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
素面報告是支持這條單書規定本席另外有提修正動議特別在46條增加最後的一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2943.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2965.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
銀罩業僱主依第1項第10款,其他工作性質特殊,國內缺乏該項人才,在業務上切有聘僱外國人從事工作之必要,經中央主管機關專案核定者。我最主要就是針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2967.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2989.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
因照業僱主,依第一項第十款規定,聘僱外國人以取得招募許可後,每禁用原住民一人,或者是他不禁用的話,可以向原住民組織和發展基金繳納代金,就可以申請引進外國人兩人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2991.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3019.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個規定本來是規定在這個46條以及所授權定的這個標準裡面就是法勞動部所授權勞動部定的這個標準裡面但是因為這個勞動部在這個把它刪除了所以有必要放在這個法46條的最後一項以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3022.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3024.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好接下來請林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3030.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3048.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
謝謝 這個80歲以上要開放理論上我個人當然是樂見其成但是實際上實際上我想各位委員我們在這裡修法可是你真的要想到一個問題現在整個長照市場是缺工的狀況很嚴重而且我們已經講過了這個不是台灣人不做而已連這個外籍看護 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3054.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3058.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
他們對看護重症的人其實都不做所以這個你把這個門檻沒有設定需求說什麼樣條件是可以這個80歲以上就可以的你就全部健康的80歲都可以的話那我請問大家到時候缺工嚴重現在是外籍看護在挑老闆欸不是老闆在挑外籍看護欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3080.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3082.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面我們想你今天打開了一扇門我們可以樂觀啟程但是請問一下重症的這個重症的這個需求者他們缺乏照顧的人力的問題會不會因此更惡化而且會排擠到 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3098.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3100.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件件件件件件件件件 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3119.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3119.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
而這個嚴重就是大家都想要藉著這個吵架然後要換僱主嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3143.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3148.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以這個換僱主的過程裡面然後承擔的就是個人聘僱的這一個僱主然後吵架完以後他就說夭壽你是不是對我恐嚇你是不是對我傷害然後夭壽然後這樣他就要轉換到去輕症的或者是到工廠裡面了 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3164.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3180.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那你現在80歲全開放你用年齡層來開放而不是用那個真正的這個失能的需求或者是不要那麼條件那麼嚴苛的你用這個輕度的要設定他什麼只要他有需求要設定他的需求條件我們再來開放我們也不要漏接任何一個80歲以上他可能是輕度的有需求的 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3188.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3206.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我們不要漏階調大家好好的談修法就是要好好的談有什麼樣的人需要把他接起來的現行的法律是不夠的現行的架構是不夠的我們把他們接起來以後那又不會他的衝擊又有限又不會衝擊排擠到重症看護的這個缺工的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3212.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3239.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
所以如果要修這個沒有考慮到這一個問題的話只是片面的當好人全面都開放我覺得那留下來的這個排擠重症看護沒有人的問題怎麼辦要不然你要衛福部的配套系統要進來啊衛福部的配套系統如果也沒有進來我們就先開門了然後看護外籍看護都跑光光了留重症的老人在那裡年輕人要更可憐啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3242.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3251.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
重症的失能的人躺在那裡所有外籍看護來一個月就跑了來兩個月就跑了來三個月就跟你吵架然後又轉換僱主了 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3254.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3263.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這個國家也沒有接起來,立法院也沒有接起來,我們本來修法的好意是不要漏接任何一個失能的長輩可是現在你這個門一開,輕度失能的接起來了,重症的卻把它丟掉了,重度失能的人把它丟掉了我今天在這裡我也只是這樣提醒大家啦,老實說你們硬要這樣子過我也是沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3277.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3301.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
可是真的是知識體大那除非有一個前提我們可以這樣子做我剛剛講要有源源不絕的外籍移工問題就不是啊就沒有世界各國都在開放大家都開放韓國日本也在搶工啊白人的國家也在搶工啊就是沒有源源不絕的移工啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3303.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3325.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的要想想看這樣子做下開這個門容易啦修這個法也容易啦但是問題是更嚴重重症的失能的在那裡的問題會更嚴重然後僱主跟外籍看護吵架的問題也會更嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3327.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3355.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
然後請問一下僱主每天都跟那外籍看護重症失能的家屬的僱主跟外籍看護每天在那裡吵架他們要怎麼辦所以修這個法的時候其實是利益良善但是真的會排擠到他們所以我最後再講一次現在是外籍移工在挑僱主現在是勞動力外籍勞動力的需求大過於供給 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3357.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3370.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個問題你沒有想先解決你就再把需求創造得更大都沒有供給了你還把需求創造得更大的狀況依照市場邏輯其實是墊高價格的啦是墊高價格的所以你要這樣開門我們也是樂觀騎乘啊你要這樣墊高我們大家要做好人 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3380.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3380.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
接下來我們請楊藥委員發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3399.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3421.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
對 這個就是其實我覺得還是勞動力的來源問題所以當然我一直覺得用年齡或是我們把各項條件放寬這個本席是贊成的可是這個會產生幾個問題第一個就是會有排擠效用 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3426.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3438.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
而且我的判斷假如說大量的人都可以輕易的申請外勞那會不會造成是外勞選擇僱主外勞選擇僱主因為大家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3449.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3477.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
的條件一樣就申請條件一樣可是其實大家必須要被照顧的能量不同所以我覺得這個真的要我還是必須要講就是80歲以上或者是運用什麼長照的使用年限等等這一些東西我都是贊成的可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3479.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3485.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
勞動力的來源,我希望勞動部這邊還是必須要先做一下準備。好,謝謝。那還有沒有委員要發言?還有沒有其他委員要發言?如果沒有,我們是不是先第一階段先讓那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3500.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3522.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
主管機關來回應一下好不好第一個可能要回應一下就是就現行的就是這些重度失能他們使用外籍看護工的現況到底怎麼樣這個比例是多少就是有多少比例是使用外籍看護工有多少比例其實是使用機構有多少比例可能是使用這個照服員 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3522.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3546.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那這個部分是不是長照是這邊有一些相關的數據因為剛剛有委員在提的就是說會不會有外籍移工他挑雇主那現行重度的本來大家其實就在照顧上比較吃力所以他可能轉換雇主的比例本來就高那這個就是現行的問題這個也不是說未來開不開放的問題就是說如果現行就已經有這個問題那到底我們衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3552.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3567.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
在這個部分是怎麼樣去讓這些外籍看護工讓他適應會增進他的技能讓他有能力去照顧重度的目前的現況到底是怎麼樣我覺得應該要優先來釐清一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3569.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3588.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
來,請說明。昭緯這邊的詢問目前其實我們手上掌握的有進到我們長照體系的目前整個在我們住宿型機構這邊大概照顧10萬人所於就是說用我們給支付的這一塊目前是51萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3590.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3602.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
當然他的年齡就是按我們的長照的服務對象並沒有鎖定在80歲以上他只要符合我們的CMS評估65歲以上跟全齡的身障者都在這51萬人的照顧範圍當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3607.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3629.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
對 就是在我們這邊那基本上屬於委員剛剛關心到說重度的這一塊我們基本上這10萬名住在住宿型機構幾乎接近九成都是重度的那使用我們長照這個擠支付這邊51萬人大概屬於這個重度的大概是接近三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3630.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3640.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
獎金約三成,多數是中度的,大概目前的樣貌是這樣。至於說聘請移工這邊,因為目前勞動部這邊統計是大概22萬人,這樣子一個被照顧者有聘請移工,那真的有22萬多人有進來使用我長照服務的,就是除了照顧服務以外的,包括輔具、包括喘息, |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3655.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3675.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這樣的服務的人數大概八萬多人接近九萬八萬八千多人大概是目前的一個樣態數據是這樣以上說明那那個移工照顧重度的這部分的數字你們有掌握嗎我們這一塊沒有除非他有進來我們才有辦法掌握他的失能的等級 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3677.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3684.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那現階段8萬8千多人有進來使用我們長照服務的幾乎是重度的占多數。有沒有比較更精確的統計? |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3694.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3713.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
因為22萬人如果沒有進到我們長照體系我們無法知道到底他的那個失能等級在我們的CMS評量是居於哪個位置所以這有一個落差對不對進機構的九成其實重度的都是收重度的嘛那你現在total你剛剛是說22萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3718.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3737.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
是被照顧者請移工來照顧的?對,22萬。但這22萬當中有多少比例是重症的?你們掌握不精確。你只能說他有使用你的輔具的,有使用長照資源的。他就使用我那個88000裡面,多數是重症的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3738.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3756.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
多數是重度的所以大概是8萬在移工照顧裡面的比例大概是8萬是屬於比較偏重症的嗎還是署長這邊補充我跟召委跟各位委員補充我們如果目前21萬多但是因為扣掉失聯之後目前有效評估大概是8萬多 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3757.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3772.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
如果以18萬多來做分析我跟委員報告大概目前以重症就是說以過去我們的評估八字量表因為35分以下大概就是重症這個裡面就佔了將近9萬9萬人是重症就幾乎是一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3773.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3794.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那至於說輕重的因為可能就是35分以上的這一面35到65就是這比較屬於中度大概3萬8那輕度的目前也有部分開放就是到4千多人所以剛剛委員關心的確實因為目前以這個需求來講一半以上是以重度的為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3795.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3805.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那現在也確實會擔心就是說如果一旦全面性的可能這個重症的家庭未來在引進的過程當中確實有可能會產生一些排擠跟困難我算以上做一個補充那你們在這個就是目前禁用上面重症的沒有優先嗎在媒合上面那可以設計嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3819.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3848.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
等一下先讓我這個問題問因為我們目前開放自己資格只要符合條件我們就許可所以就讓他們自然配合你們並沒有說什麼優先因為每一個都有他的需求我們大概也沒有辦法說誰先併誰後但如果剛剛那麼多位委員擔心那個所謂的排擠效用不能去就是說你們在制度上設計因為大家都符合資格嘛但是因為這個你的需求大於供給 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3849.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3853.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
所以你在制度設計上面我們如果為了去滿足這當中重症的優先照顧的原則這個我覺得也合理有沒有可能在政策上面去 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3862.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3891.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
就是說他可能可以優先媒合權這個就像我們的社會住宅就是生多周少然後其實我們就會有政策上去獎勵比如說我們現在鼓勵這個少子女化所以有子女的家庭就優先嘛他有優先媒合權嗎我覺得這個在制度上或許可以進一步去思考這個大家一起來討論因為只是有多位委員都提到排擠的問題所以這個排擠的問題某些時候他是可以透過制度的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3893.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3906.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
來達到他的優先性,他可以優先被滿足。這個是大家可以共同去思考的。主席,你剛剛講的思考,理論上是這樣子,但是實際上是不可行。我覺得制度是一回事,但我們真的要回到實務面。實務面是這樣子,我們本來騙顧外籍勞動力,外勞,我就這樣不禮貌地講,外勞以前, |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3922.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3928.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
其實都要本勞優先啊可是我們都知道我們去登記本勞優先那個程序啊其實是在延宕我們聘僱外勞的時間而已都是做假的、做形式的啦所以你剛才說強迫這個外籍看護進來都要強迫他先媒合到重症優先去可是不要忘了喔他可以拿著拿完假啊啊我們的法律是這樣規定說你不得轉換僱主喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3947.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3967.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
除非僱主犯錯,他就一直每天跟你玩雞玩狗,你一天動不動,你大聲說什麼,你如果再出手的時候,他就有正當性了。不要再說有出手沒出手,即便沒有出手,每天玩雞。請問一下,哪一個家庭的僱主受得了說,我要玩了,每天跟我搖巴插,每天玩雞? |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3968.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3980.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以你強迫他硬要他去康護那個重症,其實對於這個重症康護的這個家庭僱主來講,他也是很痛苦的,因為這個人根本就不愛,他要顧比較輕盈的,不然他要去工廠。你強迫他來這裡,每天到晚間晚間打不著他,結果僱主說:「好啦,我放你走啦!」 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3989.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4007.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以大家要搖巴擦,大家顧著老公,大家玩遊戲,你看那個家庭怎麼會好已經有一個失能的人在那裡已經夠痛苦了來照顧失能的康護每天跟我吵架,我上班回來要每天在吵架 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4008.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4019.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以這個中心你要看法律是一回事、法規是一回事但實務面執行起來流於形勢、淪為形勢你說重症優先這個併顧 那就不可能了 如果這樣做下去也是完蛋而已法律規定不能轉換僱主但是就不可能了 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4029.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4054.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
但重借也會加價,加價說要怎樣去完成讓你轉換僱主所以真的是我們知識體大但是大家所害怕擔心的說80歲以上真的有些部分是需要需要真的再開放寬鬆一點的條件給他們我們就這個務實的來談哪些條件是真的我們這個外籍看護的體系是可以再接住他們的那我們就這個很務實的來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4058.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4080.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
不要一次說八十歲都可以沒了你健康沒健康都可以這樣就重症沒人顧了是這樣啦好謝謝林委員我想請那個勞動部再補充一個資訊等一下勞動部剛剛沒有回答一個就是說如果依委員講就是說這些外籍看護工他對於重症他基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4081.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4089.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
他是比較會排斥的。那就現行的你剛剛提到的9萬當中他們的轉換率到底是多少目前現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4094.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4116.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
根本沒辦法其實我們現行因為為了要確保它的穩定性它如果沒有其他事由是不能轉換的原則是不能轉換任意轉換所以有轉換一般就比如說有違規使用或者是說真的是經過雙方合議這個才能轉這是例外對那剛剛提到這個比例目前這個其實是因為法令上有些限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4117.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4131.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
不過確實這個有一些困擾是剛剛林委員確實提到尤其在疫情期間這個問題就被凸顯了就是大家就是因為引不進來的當下大家就搶那結果移工可能就我要選擇輕易的那這個過程當中就會造成僱主跟移工很多爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4132.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4157.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
因為移工就要一再會要有這種爭議性的會造成勞僱之間其實不穩定而且不和諧所以我們是蠻建議就是說這個制度的設計可能要兼顧僱主跟移工雙方怎麼樣去衡平齁那也讓這個家庭的照顧也能夠獲得滿足所以可能單是以八十歲恐怕會造成類似就是說這個選擇的這個工作的這種糾紛可能就會產生出來這個以上但我不 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4159.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4182.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我覺得不太懂那個邏輯就是說剛剛提到的是可能有一些看護工他對於重症的照顧他可能不是他有可能是能力沒辦法升任也有可能是意願不高那這個就是這種問題他是問題本身就存在的問題這個跟你要不要去開放其他我覺得這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4183.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4202.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
兩件事情欸就是說這兩個其實不能這樣子完全混為一談如果說本質上面我們就已經看到現行的外籍看護工他對於照顧重症的這樣的一個患者他其實是辛苦的然後也會因為這樣子他可能工作倦怠可能會想要逃跑等等這些引發的糾紛那這個就是我們現行就存在的問題我們就應該去解決但是剛剛勞動部又說其實這個問題不大 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4212.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4231.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個其實不會因為這樣子轉換因為現行的規定是不會的所以我就覺得那到底問題在哪裡然後就是說開放80歲之後就會導致問題更嚴重那到底現在的問題是嚴重還是不嚴重啊他就說不嚴重啊他說沒有轉換的問題啊是剛剛勞動部講的他說不嚴重啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4238.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4256.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
來 我們先請蘇清泉委員發言我 不同意林淑雯講的啦 吼 那是怎樣的呢八十位醫生你如果放寬 那他可以請醫工進來 家庭看護身強體壯的人他也不會去申請啊 其實那個醫工也是要先睡的咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4258.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4274.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4282.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4305.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以這個也不用那麼憂慮那麼多啦就是說因為你65位醫生現在要三百人啊那如果85位醫生現在有多少人這些數字我不知道啦那我現在問一個問題剛剛那個衛福部你講的說現在在家庭看護你不知道多少人是22萬人差不多家庭看護 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4307.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4331.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
沒有沒有沒有現在總共在家請家庭看護的現在到底多少人有沒有我的我的data22萬那目前因為扣掉失聯大概是8萬28萬那你的機構機構裡面的外外移工有沒有包括在這裡面沒有所以你是22家8萬個逃跑6萬個逃跑的然後再加上8萬個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4333.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4351.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
你說居高安養的又28萬個那你就三十幾萬喔全部28逃跑6萬所以實際上是22而且逃跑的都是家庭看護工居多因為勞動條件很差阿你跟老的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4355.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4372.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
不過他講的這個草的要轉換是有因為這人的天性嘛他照顧那個那麼嚴重啊讓他想想換輕鬆一點嘛就好像我們本國的那個造福員他一拿到證照不然要去機關洋啊沒有人要去大家也要去買一座一對一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4373.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4399.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
他就要一天的兩三千塊他就要安養中心他要第三班他的錢又沒有那麼多所以機構安養找不到本國的那個康復員找不到啊然後都是外籍的康復他們說來這裡小偷說一比四啦一比三啦沒有機構有開放不是用人頭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4400.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4405.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
阿所以我現在一直說你一直在講說阿沒有納入你這個機構安養的你就不知道阿好像你跟勞動部這邊是偷鉤的是不是這樣你種種住幾個你都搞不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4416.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4441.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
還有最後一個問題我不要再問這個移工進來到底看護的移工進來有沒有上線部長應該是沒有嘛沒有上線嘛對不對所以這個這個問題也不是問題吧全世界都在搶都在搶看護啊搶移工啊我們的觀念要改啊這些人將來是變成我們勞動力的一部分啦這是很嚴重的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4443.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4444.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
黃秀芳、劉建國、陳穎、林月琴家庭看護公司22萬人逃跑18萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4461.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4483.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
現在剩18萬嘛齁那其實我們在基層就會碰到很多的這個家庭看護工就剛剛像淑芬講的齁如果說這個是很難照顧的話可能他可能就真的每一天就跟僱主吵或者是說要求要加薪啦齁這個是真的在基層確實是碰到的這樣的一個問題齁那就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4488.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4517.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
未來要怎麼樣讓像剛剛就像那個主席講的如果說切成80歲以上80歲以上就有這個有需求或者是說完全80歲以上他只要想申請就可以申請的話那確實會不會去排擠到原本重症的那我現在有看到就是說如果說他本來有需要他確實有需要然後就直接申請的話我覺得這個會不會是比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4518.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4545.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
對一般的民眾來講就是說不要以年齡來切就是說他只要有需要然後就可以來申請那我是不是就是說因為可能在一般的程序上一些行政程序應該要更便利讓有需要的民眾他是很容易去申請而不是說他還要有很繁瑣的一些文書或者是有一些很繁瑣的一個申請程序我希望這一方面應該要再加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4550.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4564.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好 謝謝黃秀光召委接下來是劉建國委員所以申請外勞基本上公部門他有一定的手段這個手段也叫做有順序 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4566.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4582.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
他的優先數據其實他已經在實施了啦所以才有所謂的什麼症狀及斯文的診斷證明那護表才是那個巴士量表啦齁那因為我在禮拜二的時候我特別也感謝召委排這個案讓大家有充分投入空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4582.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4597.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我想大家都是正面好意的希望可以幫這些需求者可以得到變名啦不要這麼煩雜要申請到的人申請不到還是要申請可以申請的人反而在醫院裡面起死路命就對了啦所以我們才今天會要來處理這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4600.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4618.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那剛剛市長講的數據請市長要再明確講清楚啦齁那個數據跳來跳過去現在到目前為止逃跑萬是八萬五千多可能快到十萬了啦應該是這麼講齁那實際上實際上我們引進的外籍家庭康護工應該是22萬啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4620.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4634.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
對不對但實際上有真正的在每一個僱主家庭有實際上在執行外籍給看護的是18萬多啦等於跑了2萬快到3萬左右啦應該是這麼講嘛對不對他這個2萬到3萬為什麼他要跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4639.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4666.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
為什麼他要跑?這個公部門要跟我們委員說明清楚嘛他跑的狀況、樣態是什麼?是因為剛才陳柏林所委員還有董委員所講的因為他一到這個僱主的家庭看到這個掛上市委然後這真的他原本想像的他進來他一到我們引進來他是經過一定程度的這樣的訓練訓練完之後他才到這個僱主家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4669.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4688.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
不過他一到這個僱主家民看到的時候他嚇呆了他覺得他沒辦法去申問然後他可能就跟僱主的家屬開始在討論他是不是可以轉換啊如果不給他轉換可能就有一些狀況會發生啊如果可以自由的去自由的選擇情況下他去轉換了可能就不會跑但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4691.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4693.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
議員在這三個沒有辦法去溝通他可能就跑了這兩至三萬的淘寶是不是我們樣態是佔比是多少嘛這我想應該要讓我們所有的委員了解清楚嘛這是其一嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4707.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4729.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那第二個我那天特別強調說你怎麼去做到優先這個有困難你從實際上外籍看護進到這個僱主家庭的情況之下你要去做到所謂的優先就已經有困難了你很難去限制所有的外籍家庭看護工跟僱主的這樣的互動還是他們協商得到最後的這樣的一個結論的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4732.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4755.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
你政府很難去介入這其一那其二我們所謂的優先現在就叫優先為什麼叫優先因為你必須要有巴斯量表你巴斯量表是護表你的前面叫做症狀及斯文的診斷證明嘛所以這個就是優先嘛這一塊就叫優先嘛那你現在要把這個區這個不是只有簡單的把巴斯量表取消嘛你現在是不是要把這個證明書一併都取消掉如果是你就講清楚喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4759.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4776.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以那天才特別提到說今天如果單純的去講說把巴氏量表免評但是他的前提還有在這個診斷證明是不是一併要取消啊如果不是只有單純把巴氏量表把這個護表撩掉那你還是必須要有症狀及私人的診斷證明啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4779.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4790.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們不能讓外界知道說我們今天委員會已經處理了我們已經幫各位把80歲的巴士量表拿掉了但是他還有一個診斷證明他還是存在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4791.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4812.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這是第二件事情喔 第二件事情第三件事情是這樣因為剛剛林委員一直提到我相信昭緯跟委員應該都非常清楚這個供給跟需求落差值太大了啦落差值太大了在這個情況之下國民黨委員也有提到70到79歲的這一塊就是癌症啊第幾期的要不要放 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4813.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4830.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我覺得要放啊,怎麼不放?他就得癌症了,他很難過了,家裡的外國人很辛苦,為什麼不放?但是如果我們今天就是一個界限,我們今天先處理80歲以上,那我們何其對這70、79歲人的公平在什麼地方? |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4832.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4842.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個是請大家來做思考,我們都希望幫這些需求者做到辨明不要這麼樣的煩雜,也不要去到醫院我現在有很多家屬想請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4860.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4869.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以,所以這個原因去到這麼多,但是大家就是做龍頭說,啊你就八十的醫生,啊你就不要跟我們裝八十兩票,啊我們就是有資金,啊你就給我們請就好了。社會醫療就是說這麼簡單,但是他不知道這不是這麼簡單,啊我們大家就是這麼走,啊一個人這麼走醫療就對了齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4880.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4880.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
接下來請陳毅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4909.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4923.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
呃我我想講一個一般正常人的一個就是習慣跟傾向就是說如果嗯通常大家假如這個薪水是一樣的時候大部分的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4924.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4934.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件中的負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4943.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4963.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
但是不能自由轉換的前提之下他就會跑啊所以這個問題其實是很嚴重的因為我們不能否認現今這個實務上在現在社會確實是有這種專業的這個非法媒介那他們呢還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4965.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4993.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
合法的安置單位在協助指導專業非法的逃逸這個現象是有的我們不能去忽略他也不能去否認他我們要去面對他們所以很可憐的我這是我的朋友親身的經驗他媽媽是重症患者可是呢不管是這個外籍或本籍的這個看護工雇主很可憐都是要看他們的臉色那 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4995.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5014.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那因為確實在照顧這些重症患者很辛苦那也確實發生就是說這個看護工然後就逃跑那結果僱主又要回頭都找不到的時候又回頭去找這些專業的非法媒介然後又找了一些逃逸的來訓練不足的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5015.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5032.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
然後這些人呢就是請到的這個看護工就品質越來越差所以我是具體建議這樣子因為這個我說這個整個制度的設計我們是不是還是回歸給這個勞動部跟這個衛福部一點時間去研擬這個相關的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5042.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5055.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
接下來請林月琴委員,然後林淑芬委員,蘇清泉委員我還是要再提醒,真的剛剛前面委員都有講也就是重振他們的需求,因為一直有 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5055.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5064.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5077.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5092.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
有的是逃跑 有的事實上是合議的第二個我覺得還是要問的就是我上次就有提問說現行開放85歲以上輕度的那個障礙者聘僱的制度下就很多用老人名義去聘僱一個移工進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5093.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5109.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
公認家庭幫用以外或者是到民宿小吃店去從事工作那我們自己又沒有辦法掌握這個狀況那如果開放80歲的時候是不是加劇了這個狀況使得需要的人更是沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5109.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5129.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
但是移工反而他的權益又沒被保障到可能都要一起考量而不是單一的就是說那我現在80歲就像淑貞委員講的我覺得大家要做好人大家都可以做好人可是最後呢造成真正需要的人沒辦法做移工的權益又受到很大的影響因為他去小吃店 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5130.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5153.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
他可能是從早做到晚,因為我婆婆在聘用我們的那個看護工的之前這個看護工他就是在台中,他事實上是人家聘過他可是他是從早上做早吃那個小吃店做到晚上反而對他權益事實上反而是沒有保障的,這我們一併考量那今天政府又不能去抓說那到底像這樣子的狀態裡面到底有多少人是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5154.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5169.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
也沒去做查核那現在又說要開放80歲那你有更多人去查核85歲以上之前就沒辦法做到那反而對移工的權益受到很大影響你也沒辦法做可是現在又要再去開放80歲以上的話是不是真的是加劇這種狀況以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5172.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5179.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好請林淑芬委員好主席我覺得剛才劉建國委員也講得蠻清楚的就是說我們不可能全部都開放我告訴大家可以全部都開放但是要有設定一個條件我們統統都開放的條件是市場法則嘛你的供給面寬戶的供給面是大於需求面來是這個結構下勞動力結構是供給面大於需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5200.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5213.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
意思是說外勞大家都像30年前一樣每個人都求之不得要來台灣啊我告訴你通通都可以開放可是現在真的我們要回到這個全世界都在搶工的這個基礎上來看現實現在整個市場的供給就真的是供給小於需求窮不安所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5223.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5243.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
不要忘了當你供給小於需求我再講一次價格勞動力價格是要往上提高的啊所以現在我們基本上沒有基本勞基法的約束這個家庭看護工但是絕對不是用勞動部所說的一萬多元就可以拼顧了現在沒有兩三萬是留不住家庭看護工的 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5244.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5263.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
而我們的法規規定是不用的喔可是為什麼會這樣子因為這是一個自由市場的自然法則嘛那我們硬要違反自由市場的規則說你一定要先去參入重症你用違反自由市場的規定你給他這樣子做有兩個大問題第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5267.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5274.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
第一個就是現在的勞動意識高漲包括外籍移工他們已經全面國對國的都在談了你不能夠禁止我們轉換僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5280.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5298.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
就從這個勞動的自由權利來講你憑什麼禁止我轉換僱主所以我們對移工的管理政策事實上包括美國包括世界都在檢視台灣檢視全球有沒有對勞移工是平等原則的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5299.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5311.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
而我們現在這個禁止轉換僱主的規定都正要接受挑戰都要改了有可能都會被衝擊到了所以這個問題已經是大家覺得違反勞動人權了好那目前我們還沒有改所以不能夠轉換僱主嘛可是第二個問題就來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5319.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5344.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
啊他不能轉換雇主天天吵啊天天吵那你要不要合意讓他走或者是或者是你就就我不願意不願意他也逃跑所以在這種狀況裡面你會知道重症的家重症失能者的家庭他們多麼的可憐啊現在我們沒有為重症失能的家庭解決這部分的問題而我們現在在開一個門哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5348.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5360.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我們如果這樣草率沒有想到後遺症就讓他這樣子不是用需求劉建國委員講的七十幾歲如果我是一個癌症然後我沒有家人可以看護我難道我不能夠請一個外籍看護嗎所以我們要用需求面來設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5367.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5380.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
來開放而不是用年齡來開放否則的話你直接用年齡開放等於是對重症失能的家庭落井下石沒有跟他們解決問題你還要牽手讓他們的問題越嚴重這個是大問題再來我要跟你講說其實自由市場勞動力的自由市場裡面很簡單的因為我父親中風的時候外籍看護回家一個月那一個月請問你要找誰來顧啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5397.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5426.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
當時法律還沒有改然後呢我就請我們的左鄰右舍親朋好友然後也都請大家去幫忙我可不可以這一個月請一個臨時看護人力你朝九晚五就好了到我們家裡來不用做任何家務朝九晚五然後呢你只要負責我父親的私能上的飲食洗澡然後讓他起來坐著然後推他出去一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5426.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5450.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我告訴你我開薪水四萬那個是十幾年前四萬的薪水沒有一個人要他說在四萬五要不要也沒有人要我的意思是說現在包括台灣人都一樣啊你如果到你家庭裡面到私領域裡面我感覺我就矮你一等以外大家到工廠裡面是第一優先選擇啊我工廠的薪水比較少但 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5451.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5455.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件, 其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5472.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5483.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那我要跟大家講現在你以為外籍移工我們還想外籍勞動力是要不能替代的不再請台灣人討論外籍移工從一開始開放他就是補充就是做台灣人不愛做的但是走到今天三十年連外籍移工都不願意做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5493.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5498.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
所以你再這樣子下去,即便他們進來,他們願意做,他們真的是我們的菩薩和天使了。所以在這種狀況裡面,你開放了一個沒必要請外籍移工,他一定第一優先。我們不要把大家都當成聖人,大家都是一個菩薩,他也是一個人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5518.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5542.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
他也想要挑工,如果可以自由轉換僱主,他也要挑工所以外籍移工也不是30年前外籍移工的爸爸媽媽那一代的移工了現在年輕的外籍移工長大的環境跟他爸爸媽媽這樣子受盡所有的辛苦然後含辛的如苦為了養孩子然後到台灣來 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5543.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5548.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5559.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5573.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以我們要很務實的要接地氣的我們就好好的來談最負責任的來談就是我們接住真正有需要而我們沒有看到的務實的來談主席什麼人是我們應該大家歡迎起來這個問題要再開放給他不要用巴士量表給他可以有人照顧因為比如說不婚的人越來越多了他不婚 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5582.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5587.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
可是他一生病就沒有人看護了,到什麼等級我們就應該要給人家,這個要接起來,這樣講比較實際,不能說八十歲就開放,這種人立法是沒有福,很厲害啦但是大家硬要過我還是沒辦法,但是要先說得好,因為這件事後遺症要先說得好,再來你要先開放以前要處理開放要先改過重症失能家庭,現在遇到的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5608.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5617.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
現在遇到的問題不論衛福部、不論是勞動部也都沒有接觸他們。已經開放有在用外籍康復的,引導發生的問題,每天搖把柵、逃跑,都沒人要顧。這個問題我們沒有優先立法,還是優先修法說看要怎麼解決。這個問題比現在馬上開放80個合格、合手的外籍康復,更加問題更加嚴重啦。好啊,我們就好好談、慢慢談。先蘇星全委員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5637.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5645.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
今天你講的五題好像都失焦了今天你說的是85個醫生都不要開巴士練表不要開我告訴做醫生的人現在你如果去台北你去長庚你去看塞一隻輪椅子裡要找劉建國醫師劉建國醫師擺起來做一招現在看輪子沒人要看沒人要給你寫是什麼因為寫一張巴士練表有積極的 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5665.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5675.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
過去有什麼不肖的醫生我做過醫修展覽的Listing做過很多Listing我給你們報告正常的醫生看到這個壓力都很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5677.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5704.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
愈笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。� |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5706.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5710.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
所以我們今天要講的是說80位醫生要開巴士兩票嗎?不要讓醫師來寫,不要讓我們病病的醫生,若要開巴士兩票不要寫,你要叫醫生開診斷書,開診斷書要比較大喔。那你要用其他的管道來評估,多元的評估,這兩三是那個就領導總部的事情了嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5732.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5744.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我今天要說的就是八十歲以上要開巴士輛票,如果我要關,我就要關,不要開。七十歲到七十九歲有癌症二期的,可能開到診斷室給他可以啦。如果要叫我開巴士輛票評估,我也很不想開。開的真是理甘問意感的人,大家就要害怕死。 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5752.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5753.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5774.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5778.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那選前三個候選人都說要放寬要補用什麼的選後當然問題一大堆那至於說後面那些逃跑的啦要拖得多心碎的啦那是另外另外一個意思所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5791.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5807.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
大家請他講 像我們現在的外籍看護 衛生部外籍看護都是從哪裡來比較多 也是從菲律賓來的 從印尼來的還有對 沒有啊 我們來英國非常少啊 我們那個遠洋培養的那些百分之百都是印尼來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5809.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5826.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以我們的來源、來源國也少所以才會開放說要給印度的啦、給緬甸的多元、多元的國家來所以這個後邊這個配套真不用從我們雇主那也是你們勞動部敢開放的三個月就可以從我們雇主甚至兩個月就可以從我們雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5827.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5829.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
接下來是劉建國 劉建國委員發言完之後我們休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5856.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5858.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
現在有提供的只有19萬,換句話說現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5861.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5888.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那位委員請坐那裡,他講的就是一個現狀,屬於醫生開這巴士輪表開始也有很多問題,這我剛才也已經這樣說了,所以這比年輕人更清楚、更感同身受啦齁。但是齁,但是我們要對醫生開巴士輪表及早期來處理這80位醫生,要把巴士輪表拿掉。我就說,你把巴士輪表拿掉,它是附件,它會透過一個疾病及私能的診斷證明,這要拿掉嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5891.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5906.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這你告訴我好嗎?你告訴我清楚。所以不是單純把八十兩票提掉,要讓議員去扁平,八十二以上都不能去承擔。剛才這個如果再跌下去,你同樣是有這個問題。同樣是要再回到議員,要去看他的記錄,要去看他設定的狀況,要去開除他的政端證明書。這是定數嘛,這個定數要照嗎?還是連這個都要提掉?這你要告訴我清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5918.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5941.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這第一點喔 這第一點第一點我想要提醒大家我是說 衛福部你要把這個表格給所有的委員一張啦齁我給大家報告齁我們講需求嘛我們現在講需求我們現在齁我們台灣現在沒有出席就是拚過這個這個家庭這個看路公啦齁有三年啦我給大家報告第一年81年到82年基高照顧服務一間照顧服務 核家庭託顧服務連續六個以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5950.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5977.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
二十四萬兩千四百六十三人但是隨從現在有扯到的喔有扯到這裡五百八百五十二啦佔比就是二十趴左右啦,要去一趴啦。第二類失智症CDRI一分以上啦需求者有二十四萬七百零二人但實際上有聘外籍看護公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5978.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6007.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
8萬7千多,佔比是36多。你如果抽到這張就知道了。再來就是第三條。第三條就是有專用特定身心障礙項目1到14項。這總共有多少?我簡單講一下。平衡肌群的障礙這個重度,智能障礙重度,指紋障礙重度,失智症輕症,自閉症重度,染色體異常重度,還有先天代謝,精神病,肢體障礙,罕見疾病, |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6008.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6021.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
重要器官失去功能呼吸器官重度重要器官失去功能吞嚥機能重度這總共需求是多少?需求是要達到658222228人目前有聘到外籍康復工人數是19913人對不對?對不對?占比是29% |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6038.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6054.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
你把第一類、第二類、第三類加起來總統統目前在我們臺灣裡面這三類需要聘外籍看護工的先不談長照2.0就簡單講說他有需要提出申請要申請外籍看護工的總共多少是不是合計就是658228加入數要15萬多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6064.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6088.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
啊,剛才司長一直在說,我們現在台灣有遷就外籍看護工實際在職業的是總共照理講是應該將近20萬啦但是實際上是18萬多而已啦剩下3到4萬是跑掉了啦啊,我才會講說3到4萬為什麼跑掉你們要去盤查他的樣態有幾項啊然後這18萬還在家庭持續在做看護工的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6094.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6101.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
他跟僱主合意的有轉換的比例有多高?轉換的次數的比例又有多少?不過我告訴你這個手機要拿出來給大家參考啦齁所以第一件我剛才說八十兩票八十五他想要拿掉不是要擋但是他那個疾病及思論轉換信息書要不要一併拿掉還是保留?這個要講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6120.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6134.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
阿第二個剛剛一直講供給跟需求面我們現在我們現在的需求就這麼大就是65萬多我們的供給是不到20萬捏雖然有超過22萬但是就跑了3到4萬吶等於說我們給這一些政府目前設定開放優先的我們都已經不足到多少如果以22萬去除啦去除以65萬8啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6149.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6162.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我們是不足三分之二捏現在就已經不足三分之二的外籍家庭看護工來幫助我們這些家庭幫助我們這些需要被照顧的對象了就等於欠四十幾萬捏啊你如果八十位八十個金額我們現在要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6170.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6174.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項委員會計劃,其中一項委員會計劃,其中一項委員會計劃, |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6186.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6211.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們大家都是好意正面嘛我們才可以精準去做這樣判斷所以我才一直強調說我們大家都是願意幫人民來把這事情處理得更便民更需求者可以得到這樣的一個支持但是我們不要因為沒有對這些事項的掌握沒有盤整清楚反而造成真正 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6212.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6227.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
政府原本優先需要聘僱的外庭監護工反而去聘不到這些進來支持,這樣反而我們自己會傷到啦。我是跟各位用這樣比較清楚做說明。謝謝。好,謝謝。我們先休息十分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6261.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6265.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
。 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6849.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6854.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好 我們繼續開會那我們是不是先請那個勞動部跟衛福部針對剛剛又有一輪委員的發言提出來的相關的問題來請那個說明好不好來 我們先請勞動部好了 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6868.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6883.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
跟委員報告齁首先就是說現在就是對於用年齡來開放還是以需求我們是覺得說如果以需求來開放因為基本上不管是不是80或未滿80其實只要有需求其實就可以滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6884.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6909.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那現在外界是比較關心的就是說我們去年10月所開放那三類多元免貧要不要進一步擴大那這部分確實因為有一些反應意見進來我們覺得這個有一些可以考論的一個空間而且應該朝向盡量滿足各方的需求所以基本上如果能夠這樣來做的話其實未來以80歲以上其實大部分還是可以照顧到協助我想這個部分是第一個就是對整個未來的一個多元免貧的開放的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6911.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6927.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那第二個就是剛剛大概委員關心就是說可能有些像可能還不到這種所謂聘僱的條件下那是不是還有另外的一個服務所以上次我們在委員會跟委員報告其實我們已經同步在發展另外一個服務模式就是說用那個多元陪伴照顧因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6928.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6956.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
未來對於剛剛有委員提到因為有一些臨時性需求他可能一些過程當中可能需要一些短期的那未來我們發展那個多元陪伴照顧這個方式就可以滿足因為這裡面就有很多彈性的機制可以來協助那第三個剛剛有委員提到就是說整個移工未來在一個管理的制度上也確實就是說有些因為他移工跟僱主因為因為在很多情況下因為必須要轉換僱主可能那個空窗期 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6957.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6986.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
造成原僱主可能會造成一些不便那這個制度面這個部分其實我們目前依照我們目前的法律授權我們訂的一個資格標準其實我們也在同步在簡化未來可能就是說怎麼樣讓這個整個的必要的一個時效上不要造成這個控訴上的影響這個部分是在行政的作為程序上其實我們會同步來檢查那最後就是剛剛委員有提到就是說對這個失聯原因跟這個照顧之間的關聯性那這個部分我們過去其實有做一些調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6987.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7011.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
大概就是在失聯原因裡面因為僱主照顧上的一些影響的問題所產生而失聯大概佔比大概百分之二十到三十這個確實是有發生百分之三十有的時候所以這個可能因為工作可能沒辦法去試任那因為沒辦法順利轉換僱主他可能就產生失聯那這個失聯原因這個有一些一定的比率那如果說我們也擔心就是說如果一旦這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7012.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7027.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其全面性尤其是因為有一些牙健康的問題可能這個問題又會產生之間彼此的一些重症的他可能就要往那邊跑那可能又造成這個因素我想這個部分我們會進一步來做一個分析來跟我們報告好這個剛剛署長所報告的我覺得當中有點矛盾第一個你提到說你們開放多元的 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7041.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7061.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
認證方式之後呢就會80歲以上多數也都可以進來這樣子那這個好像就沒有解決到剛剛有很多民進黨的委員在提到的說我們現在他們是擔心說放太大放太大之後呢就會衝擊到現在的重症對那這個問題不是一樣存在嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7066.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7082.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
跟委員報告,因為我們現在就剛剛委員提到,我們現在是說如果在多年年齡﹖ 所以你說多數80歲以上也會符合標準,也可以進來啊?對,所以他到﹖ 那這樣的邏輯跟剛剛一直在講說,前面如果現在已經不夠了,如果再開放,再開放就是會衝擊到重症,那那個邏輯不是一樣的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7088.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7105.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那如果那個邏輯是成立的話那就不應該再開放啦就是以現行我們就是我們就是需求都沒有辦法滿足啦那所以你再放寬你再放寬放多一點人進來那現在外籍義工都不夠用所以坦白講我不知道現在真正的問題到底在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7106.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7119.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
現在真的問題在於如果剛剛署長回答這套邏輯成立的話透過你們的多元方式80歲以上多數也滿足那一樣是增加需求一樣是增加量那剛剛很多民進黨委員一直在提的說你增加量之後你會衝擊現在的重症 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7122.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7142.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我不知道真正的問題到底發生在哪裡?我們到底現在真正遇到的問題在哪裡?不能再放寬,還是說放寬的標準不能太寬鬆?因為如果你透過不斷的多元這一些行政程序,最後達到的一樣是讓很多80歲以上有需求的人,他們一樣可以健懷。 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7143.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7157.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那你剛剛一再﹑很多委員在提的說啊你放那麼多人進來之後你現在就是會衝擊到現在照顧重症的那重症的沒人要走就會你那一些多元進來的一定是比重症還要輕啊你才會多元認證啊免那些程序啊啊現在問題倒在這裡你們這樣多元的就可以開放80歲以上的就不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7167.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7196.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我不懂耶來部長你說就真正問題到底在哪裡我想我們委員會是要探討問題就是我們是要解決問題探討問題那如果剛剛有多位委員提到說我現在如果再開放一些輕症的進來我會衝擊到我現在重症的照顧就大家就會一直轉換僱主那如果這個邏輯成立你這個多元的也會被打垮你這個多元的不是重症的都不需要你多元啦你現在多元的就是有些還沒有達到門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7197.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7209.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
免一些行政程序再讓他進來的嗎所以我覺得大家要把問題談清楚真的不要就是說開放然後就一定會衝擊什麼如果這個是成立了你這套多元是被打垮了你還是開放了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7212.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7230.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
你還是簡正變明你還是開放一些不是原來重症的進來啊所以我們的問題到底是在哪裡我就真的要談清楚我先補充一句話就好了這個應該這麼講齁我們把這個重症這一張表格先收起來我們先不談重症我們談80歲以上就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7231.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7239.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
財務部給我們的資料應該大家都有啦111年應該是臺灣的80歲以上的長者應該有八十幾萬嘛對不對那現在已經113了已經91萬了是111年嗎喔112年已經91萬嘛好那91萬我們掌握的數據有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7255.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7263.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
要所謂真正需要外籍看護工來照顧的比例是多少我們現在有進來我們長照體系的大概38萬那91萬扣掉38萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7274.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7298.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
還有五十三萬嘛 對不對 那我們現在把這一個八十兩百拿掉 免評我剛剛特別提到說要不要連那個那個叫什麼疾病及失能証明書一併都拿掉就變成說他只要滿八十歲他只要滿八十歲他就可以申請外籍看護工囉好 那這個部分會不會就已經會造成很大的衝擊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7300.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7309.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7325.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7351.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那就簡單講我們還需求要有53萬那53萬當然不會全部的53萬的長輩還是他的家庭都一定要提出申請或許他的家庭支持比較OK他的成員比較多他根本就不需要騙外勞對不對好但是53萬可能可能不會提出申請的比例有多高啊可能會提出申請的比例又佔比又說多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7352.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7381.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這個有沒有去評估過啦我不曉得啦齁那如果我們以53萬去算就好了除以一半啦就還要再二十幾萬啊這二十幾萬多久的時間內我們勞動部可以去滿足這樣的一個需求有沒有一個時程當開放之後嘛我們要遇到了嘛我們要遇到這些80歲以上的長輩他的需求你們什麼時候可以應付到啊不用到53萬就一半就好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7384.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7400.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
跟主席還有各位委員報告一下應該是這麼講就是剛剛延續剛剛建國委員講的有53萬是非重症有需求的嘛那理論上這一群人也可以使用到我們的多元認定這一個部分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7400.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7421.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那我們多元認定裡面其實大概其實署長剛才話講得快了不可能80歲以上都因為這個多元認定然後就多數滿足理論上應該是說那個多元認定裡面有一項是最寬鬆的那個就是所謂輕度失智症的認定這一項是大概是最容易那麼這樣的人口 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7422.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7450.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
大概是七萬五千七百四十四人如果我們照衛福部的估算那目前我們因為這樣子因為這樣的放寬我們聘僱外刊的人數就是二萬五千八百七十人所以理論上也許可以推估潛在的人口可能是七萬五這個數字啦你懂我意思嗎五十三萬裡面會因為我們多元認定而有資格再申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7451.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7462.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7481.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7495.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件,其中一項是提案,建議我們要放寬,一個就是說,申請過的就不要再平了,這個不是再增加的,這個就是既有的。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7496.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7523.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
對啊 那沒有 那無助於就是有需求另外一個我們也覺得委員提案裡面有一項還蠻 我們覺得還蠻OK的就是說就我們 顏昭偉您講的授權我們兩部會再做認定啦有個 就還是要有個把關啦可是要有一些彈性可以再放這樣子可是要我們兩部會再認定這樣子我們大概最多能做的是做到這樣了對 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7527.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7553.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以你是要修正剛剛署長的報告應該沒有說修正啦就是我現在講的是我們跟就是也有提案嘛現在是不是有修正動議在在有送上去這樣子第二個新的修正動議對就是說我們就三項多元認定以外再多增加再多我們也許我們可以做的是再多增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7554.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7562.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
對我們支持黃秀芳委員的修正動議就是一年內曾經中央主管機關許可聘僱以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7564.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7593.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
許可聘僱外國人從事第一項第九款的家庭看護工作就是申請過的啦就不用再不用再評了啦你只要請一次就好了這樣好這叫一個第四款這樣啊第五款就是我我那個召委您的提案裡面的這個一個一個文字其他經第五款其他經專用主管機關會商專用目的事業主管機關認定之特殊情況事項這樣參佐您的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7596.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7602.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
但其實以你這一個方案,你剛剛講嘛,如果是7萬人跟潛在的可能高達53萬的需求,事實上你滿足的可能只有這樣是多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7622.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7640.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
是幾趴而已啊?大概是十幾趴,對不對?好,我想這個部分就是大家充分的交換意見,但是因為大家是從不同的角度,從使用者跟照顧者的面向來講,他們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7642.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7670.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
希望改革的呼聲是很大的所以才會當時會是總統級的政見我想列為總統級的政見就代表說這個是三黨的我想連賴總統他自己都說巴士料到了應該要修改的時候了那所以這件事情我覺得我們也必須尊重很廣大的這一些民意他們的需求那當然主管機關會有屬於主管機關自己的修正動議跟看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7671.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7698.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那我具體建議兩個做法一個就是我們下次繼續再審一個就是兩岸併城把修正動議跟委員的這一個就一起送出委員會那尊重大家就是要再審一次還是就是兩岸併城就是修正動議就是直接送出去這樣子就是也尊重委員提案也尊重主管機關的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7699.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7718.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那之後就是看最後民意大家的決定其實這件事情沒有絕對的對跟錯啦就是選擇的問題就是選擇的問題真的就是這樣子可不可以下次再審齁因為我覺得很多東西尤其我們自己在實務面碰到因為很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7718.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7719.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7731.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7733.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件件件件件 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7760.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7767.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
造就了一個大學生然後呢讓他進入到要進入到市場去發展自己的時候被家庭綁架回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7767.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7796.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我覺得這都要去考慮還有一個勞工就是移工到底有沒有被好好運用還是像我剛剛講的運用在不該他做的工作上可是我們今天看這些很多數據甚至都是不夠的啊那我覺得今天如果說今天印度的移工如果來個20萬、30萬那當然我們今天都不用去談這個問題不是嘛那在這樣狀況底下在挑工的狀態底下那 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7797.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7798.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件件件件 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7825.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7842.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
劉建國委員主席剛剛講得很好,那我現在是不是也這邊再做一個建議,因為部市有提出修正動議嘛,那剛剛部長有提到應該在第五款就是說其他經中央主管機關、會商中央目的事業總機關認定之情況特殊事項,這個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7845.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7864.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這個範圍可能要在立法說明裡面寫清楚啦對 特殊嘛 什麼叫特殊嘛因為我們有國民黨委員會特別提到就是癌友的部分癌友的部分要不要再去設限所謂70到79歲所以他如果已經是二期、四期的不管他是幾歲一直是嚴重的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7866.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7881.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
也不應該去設定那個年紀啦坦白講是這樣所以你這個要不要把它放在你的立法所裡面我們把它盤整清楚一點那我剛剛還要特別再提到一段就是說這個80歲台灣的80歲的長者已經來到91萬這其實是一個很龐大的一個人數啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7889.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7902.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那你這些希望去把他照顧到透過外籍空空去照顧到更好的一個樣態他的對象80歲以上的對象他一定還是有區分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7904.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7923.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
但是你又不用去否認今天社會的輿論然後包含相關的人士有特別提到說發射量保必須要做一個檢討了這個你們也必須要去面對但是有一個重點我今天講說我們不用去講到排擠到這些重症的就是你們的一二三類齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7923.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7947.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這些已經目前為止是真正的需求是65萬多但是實際上有在從事這個外籍交工來做支持的才19萬多不是不到不到三分之一喔這邊你就還欠缺三分之二就等欠40多萬那如果再回歸到80歲以上的有已經有騙的扣掉沒有騙的啊他可能有狀況他可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7948.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7970.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
他的家庭成員是希望說防老啦希望我聘一個可以來防治他的長輩跌倒我聘一個來可以陪伴他的長輩我聘一個可以來跟他的長輩來做相關的一些互動預防他的快速老化等等這個也都不為過 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7972.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7997.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這個都不為過。我想社會的需求是在這個地方。最後再回歸到我剛剛特別講的蘇清瑜委員就是醫師他很清楚嘛。所以我剛剛才講說你今天不是跟外界講我們單純把巴斯量表拿掉就通通沒事了。你那個疾病及身體診斷證明書是不是一併還要留著。很多國民黨的委員很多委員提到是這個醫療專業評估要把它取消掉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8000.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8022.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這個可以這樣取消掉嗎?這個你們要講清楚啊。所以應該沒有所謂的在這個八十歲這個範疇裡面了啦。因為我們是考量是全部的面向,真正的需求的,真正的八十歲以上的需求,真正的這些一二三類等級的需要騙到這個外籍高中的對象,我們到現在能 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8023.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8032.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
能怎樣去做相關的滿足?你們要怎麼去明定這些優先順序?我想這個都是必須要很慎重的來處理啦,好不好?以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。那還有?主任機關還有補充說明的嗎?還有托兒園? |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8045.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8068.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
好 謝謝主席那剛剛我們建國委員有講其實這個大家剛剛討論的重點其實可能巴士量表只是大家一個統稱其實重點後面有一個什麼診斷書失能的證明其實大家針對這80歲以上其實就不是說只有巴士量表就是因為後面有一個就是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8068.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8096.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
免經醫療機構之專業評估其實就是八十歲以上然後這些什麼診斷失能八十兩秒這部分都是拿掉然後就是單就就是八十歲以上就是開放讓他去申請這個外籍看護能夠照顧這些長者希望就是在他健康的時候來照顧他避免而且我們也講有些八十歲以上長者當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8097.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8125.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
畢竟容易跌倒或者有一些老人病就是希望在沒有達到我們現今醫療評估達到巴氏量表的標準就能夠讓他去照顧他不應該是讓他跌倒失能之後或者致殘之後才達到這個巴氏量表標準那我們講的整體巴氏量表當然就是包含整體醫療專業機構這個整體的評估所以就是整個要去把它取消掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8126.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8145.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
就是說80歲以上我們就符合他申請的標準那剛剛也聽了那麼多其實我覺得像很多符合標準的你看他也沒有去申請我覺得這是我們其他一個制度面的問題不應該說因為現在這個問題所以我們就不能再開放我覺得那個是另外一個層面的問題要去解決那個問題並不是說我這邊已經有60幾萬我現在才只有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8155.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8170.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那我覺得那是另外一個問題要去解決不應該把這個問題去混為一談應該勞動部針對是不是這些有需求面這麼多為什麼他們有些要申請找不到人是不是這些問題要去解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8171.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8187.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
也不能說因為這個問題導致我們其他像有這些需求的就不能再去做開放那剛剛我像我們月勤委員有講你看很多的年輕人因為這個大學畢業以後他變成因為家庭這樣子的問題我們好不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8188.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8194.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件,其中一條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條文修正草案案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8212.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8242.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
老公外籍移工為什麽那邊找不到人那是應該分開去做處理那很多的問題應該是分開處理不能說因為你那邊的問題沒有辦法解決然後針對我們這邊有需求所以我們就不能這樣去做那我們這邊要去做當然有我們看得到問題而且我們這八十歲在以上開放我相信就找得到這些人啊但是你那些沒有辦法解決問題市勞動部應該要針對那個部分去深切去做檢討去解決那部分的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8244.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8246.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
黃秋芳委員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8270.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8271.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8289.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8316.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
人數做一個統計讓這個不要變成說我們這樣子以年紀來開放之後那排擠到一些重症的那剛剛淑芬委員也有特別提到其實如果說以80歲以上就可以申請那可能有的80歲以上的這個阿公阿嬤其實他的這個整個身體狀況都還非常的好真的都非常的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8317.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8343.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那如果都可以全部開放的話那我擔心真的確實會排擠到一些重症需要被照顧的人那因為我們在基層確實有碰到這樣的問題就是家庭看護工他希望照顧比較好照顧的這個患者那比較好照顧的一方面他可能會比較輕鬆那如果說比較不好照顧的他也會要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8344.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8356.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件 及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一� |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8373.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8392.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好 我想謝謝今天有多位委員的發言我剛剛強調過這個議題其實你從不同的面向就是都有道理從行政機關管理的角度當然不希望再大幅的開放但從民眾需求的角度也聽到非常多的聲音他們是想要申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8395.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8407.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
但是呢就是現在的巴士量表讓他疲於奔命喔就是年紀那麼大了還要去跑醫院然後這當中還會產生爭議喔所以我覺得從不同的角度都有他修法的理由跟道理那這個關於勞動部跟衛福部還需要補充的資料就請 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8417.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8417.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
議案繼續往前走 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8426.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8440.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
所以該補充的資料請這個兩個單位務必充分提供像你們今天明明有這份資料怎麼沒有事先提供給大家就只有劉建國委員有我覺得這是不對的召委都沒有那怎麼可以對其他委員對召委這麼不公平手上有的資料應該一到的時候就發給每一位委員這個我要嚴正的提出糾正下一次再有這樣的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8455.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8468.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那就不客氣了不可以這樣子就是所有的資料都是公開透明然後應該要提供就是每一個委員都要有好不好這是誰提供的哪一個部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8469.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8470.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
委員會裡面每個委員委員會裡面每個委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8495.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8522.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
就是需要的資料都是一樣的就是請要提供的時候一併提供好謝謝好那這一案我們就先保留我們下次再繼續處理那關於就業服務法部分條文修正草案令則其繼續審查好那接下來我們進行第二案勞基法的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8535.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8541.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
有關勞基法第五十條條文修正草案總共有四案。現在請委員表示意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8562.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8586.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那委員還沒表示意見請主管機關先表示意見好了。來。報告召委還有我們各位委員那有關這次委員提的50條的修正案有4個案子那大概做一個做一個綜合性的一個回應那首先的話是延長產價到12週那現行的產價是8週的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8589.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8605.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
公資由僱主照給。在8週的產假裡面,僱主不可以要求勞工出勤。即使勞工想要早一點回來上班,他也是禁止的。所以是勞資雙方都不可以在這個產假的8週出勤。 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8605.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8626.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那這次要延長到12週因為的規定的話大概原則上是以原來的8週調到12週因此他會出現第一個是增加的4週工資也是由僱主照給第二個增加的4週也同樣的這個勞工和僱主雙方都被限制在那段期間是不可以勞工不可以出勤工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8627.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8649.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那這個增加的話有一個部分的話是說小型企業的人力調度可能會增加一些需求那這個部分的話會有一些比較小型微型企業比較會有一些問題那另外的話就是因為是強制性的規定不能出勤所以勞工個人意願可能他想要提早回來的可能性也會被阻斷那那個時間是從8週再拉長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8652.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8675.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
再來的話就是四周產價的部分的話我們大概薪資的推估其實大概要接近如果僱主薪資成本大概接近29億這個部分的話對於僱主的部分來說尤其是小微型的企業如果他僱用的一位兩位的員工他可能在這個時間內增加四周相當要增加給付一個月的薪資 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8676.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8701.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那對於這個勞資雙方相關的相處的部分的話也會有一些影響那包括可能會不會有潛在的明的暗的那大家可能會有一些沒有那個懷孕歧視的狀況會更難避免目前來講懷孕歧視還是有但是會更加重這個部分有誘發的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8702.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8721.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那再來的話就是說萬委員也提到一個是第二胎產價工資要加成發給那這個部分的話是因為工資其實是勞工的工作的對價那在產價期間造給工資不扣薪水那這個部分的話是原來對勞工的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8722.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8743.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
但是這個老公生第二胎和生第一胎這件事情跟他的工作其實是沒有關係的因為只因為生第二胎所以他的那個產價工資要再加成齁那雖然是即使由政府來補助但是跟那個工資的本質的情況是比較沒有關聯的那是建議是不是不要再做這樣的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8745.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8763.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那有關另外一個議題是有薪流產假的部分那性別平等工作法現在是有規定了懷孕未滿三個月的流產假那他這個規定是在性別平等工作法他的規定是兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8763.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8776.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
月以下的流產有五天的流產假兩個月以上未滿三個月的部分的流產假是七天那在勞基法是確實沒有規定勞基法只有規定三個月以上的流產有四週的產假 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8777.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8805.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
那這個部分的話在適用勞基法的行業他一樣要遵守這個5天和7天的產假給勞工那目前來講的話因為勞基法沒有也沒有說給新的規定那勞工現行的處理方式會是用普通商併假來請假我們勞工請假規則也有規定說如果勞工是因為這個流產的原因請這5天或7天的這個流產假的話要求僱主不可以去扣發他全勤 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8805.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8826.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
而不可以給他不利的待遇,那這個部分的話就是有參照這個性別平等工作法的意旨來做處理。如果要增訂這個一天和五天有薪流產假的話,那費用當然也會由在現在的委員的各個提案版本大概是由雇主負擔,還是會有小微型企業負擔的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8828.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8848.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那再來的話就是說馬文君委員的這個版本有多一個是年資未滿6個月勞工的產價工資得按比例計給那這個規定是說如果一個勞工他如果原始的規定是勞工如果年資有超過6個月以上不管是逐月生產或者是3個月以上的流產的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8850.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8868.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那他的那個產價不管是8週或4週的產價這個僱主是工資造給他是年到職以後年資6個月以上但是也許他到職之後2個月或3個月他就生產那這個僱主的話在工資上面來講在原始的規定現行的規定的話是工資責辦發給 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8870.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8894.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那馬委員這邊的提案他是會提到是說比例發給但是還是設一個樓地板是一個百分之百分之還是百分之五十就原來的規定那這個部分的話我們是建議說因為他在這樣子改成比例減少發給的話計算上面會比較複雜一點那我們是建議說是這個部分維持現行的規定大概還算是對勞資關係的情況會比較橫平 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8897.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8922.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那由於這次的相關的提案的話勞工團體、僱主團體的意見的話好像目前來講的話反應可能都比較不一我們是不是建議說是不是可以多一點時間來做進一步的意見收集然後再來做後面的討論以上好謝謝那如果與這個勞基法無關的行政官員現在可以先行離席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8925.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8929.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
好那我們現在請委員發言來林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8931.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8960.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個不行喔 這個部長剛才司長講的是說維持現行條文然後跟你在我諮詢的時候給我的承諾不一樣跟許民村部長也不一樣許民村部長承諾我了然後你在答詢台上你也承諾我你說給全新沒問題現在是錢的問題是到底雇主要出還是你要從哪個基金裡面去出公務我想公務預算你大概不可能啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8961.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8981.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
是錢的問題而已,並不是不想給全新價喔。我們一直在講說你要看到這個生產的美好為國家的貢獻,但你要看到你知道女人懷孕她有可能成功也有可能不成功,你要看見從事我們女人流產的失落和失去。 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8982.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9008.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以我在講說這個荷蘭給他的價名啊紐西蘭是叫做商價他是有薪商價那我們就不要在這裡做文章反正你給流產價就流產價現在的方向就是錢一定要全薪給不能半薪給當然是你剛來的話剛到的到值的那個再看比例這個是沒問題但是呢基本上概念就是全薪的有流產價 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9009.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9027.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9038.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9042.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以這個天數也是極少之少的老師說才幾天而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9045.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9068.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9075.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9075.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
請問還有委員要發言嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9083.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9106.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
關於這條我們當然希望就是說有新的這個流產價那這個天數跟這個這個薪資到底要從哪裡出如果照市長講的可能這個錢應該也不多我不知道說你們目前有沒有規劃就是說跟雇主你們這邊跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9107.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9128.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
公主應該也都還沒有針對這部分去討論那有沒有可能從基金或是從什麼樣的從勞動部這邊基金來支付是不是有可能這樣做那因為你們今天也沒有特別提出來那我不知道說未來是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9129.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9142.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我不知道說其他委員是不是可以再給包統部一些時間然後針對這部分你們可能要去討論一下到底這個錢是要由僱主出還是要由這個基金這邊來出 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9144.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9171.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好因為如果說既然我們現在是少子化這麼嚴重鼓勵我們的這個婦女要這個生產那當然如果說萬一他是流產的話我覺得應該也要給有薪的這個流產價我覺得這個是合理的那只是說錢到底是誰出啦那是不是我可以建議在一些時間給勞動部針對這部分好這個錢的部分到底要由誰出去做一個規劃好謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9175.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9200.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
接下來另外一位基本上我覺得站在女性的角度上的確如果遇到這樣的事情的話又要自己請自己的假甚至病假這不太合理因為畢竟懷一個孩子在這歷程當中對身體都是一個很大的負擔可是他中間又還碰到流產那只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9202.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9225.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
是不是勞動部也是需要一些時間去思考說到底是僱主的負擔到底如果僱主負擔的話到底衝擊的層面因為畢竟台灣有很多是中小企業事實上小型企業它可能只有七八個人那它的金額上到底能不能去做負擔那另外一個如果要從政府來支應的話到底要從什麼預算出 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9225.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9246.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9246.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9264.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 條文提出具體可行的,才會事實上是對於女性不要潛藏最後又有隱形的一個暴力,然後使得她們不見得可以獲得這個資源。以上。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9265.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9268.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
林淑芬委員林淑芬委員林淑芬委員林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9288.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9301.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那所以可能是不是你們要去討論的是這個方向啦就到底是修正勞基法還是信工法信工法現在有價沒有薪但勞基法是沒有三個月以下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9303.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9323.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
到底是怎麼樣才能夠cover掉這個我們其實就是很簡單國家要真正要做的母性保護其實包含就是要接住這樣子的這個流產的女性她的傷痛國家要來為女性流產的傷痛我們要接住她所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9325.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9339.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
你知道我在醫療界我訂了一個法律叫做生育事故補償條例就我們不問責醫究不問責因為沒有人要當婦產科醫師了那婚育年齡都往後延所以很多糾紛 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9340.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9344.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那在這種狀況裡面我們為什麼要優先訂出這個由國家來補償這個生育事故的時候的糾紛不問責喔不問責喔為什麼因為我們看到就是女性的生產其實是有國家的公共利益是為國家再生產的一個新的勞動力也好新的公民也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9364.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9390.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
其實是因為看到女性的再生產的這個部分她的生產是為國家貢獻很多的所以我們為什麼要做母性保護女性保護當然是要接住她們那你看到生產的美好怎麼可以不看到流產的傷痛所以我們是一個配套國家要接住女性流產的傷痛給全新就是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9391.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9405.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那不一定是只有適用勞基法的勞工是全體受僱的勞工應該也是要這樣子所以研議的方向應該是看我們要怎麼訂錢從哪裡給不是維持現行條文絕對不是維持現行條文好 謝謝那這個部分是不是勞動部對 部長來講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9420.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9436.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
是謝謝委員的那個指導那就是說當然我們都同意我們也都能夠理解這個委員們對這個婦女這個他的懷孕孕期包括生產產價以及這個流產價的這樣子的一個關切啦我想我們盡力來研議處理好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9442.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9453.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
然後應該秀芳委員也有提出一個修正動議嗎那我們是可以接受啦就是三個月內我們提一個具體可行的評估方案出來這樣子是不是對還附帶決議對不起附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9459.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9461.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
當中委員提到的兩個重點林淑芬委員還有多位委員都贊成要修法只是怎麼修的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9489.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9502.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
對,怎麼修還有錢的問題。對,所以是要修喔。欸,那個主席我可不可以問一下,你們有做一個統計就是說一年大約有多少婦女是有六產,有做這樣的統計嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9506.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9526.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
報告委員大概我們從那個相關統計大概一年是大概四萬兩三千人那大概四萬兩三千人那三個月以上對四萬兩千人到四萬三千人這統計數據上面是有的那但是如果說是在三個月以下因為三個月以上的部分其實大概就現在有規定是給四周嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9527.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9542.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以三個月以下的部分大概因為沒有特別再去切割那個數據進一步的數據我們就要抓三分之二啦因為大概就是說兩個月以下的那三個月兩個月到三個月這樣各抓三分之一再看那大概是兩萬八千多人兩萬九左右可是他本來就有半薪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9550.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9569.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
是,是他現在的話,如果他請普通傷病假的話,他就有半薪。你的四萬兩千人的資料是來自於你的請假的統計嗎?不是,是從那個有關那個流產人數的那個衛福部的相關的數據去抓出來的。可是如果按照性憑法他有請假? |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9570.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9595.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
他可能有請假他也有可能沒有請假他可以選擇要請性平法的流產假五天和七天的流產假你去健保署撈的嗎我記得對這個數字其實是老實說我很訝異啊怎麼原來女性一年流產這麼多人我聽到是蠻訝異的你確定你的數字是真實的他那個數字可能也有一些是其他就不是說真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9595.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9605.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我是有點,主席問你的是說一年流產多少人喔?是,那個是衛福部的資料衛福部的什麼資料衛福部喔,好來衛福部走了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9613.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9641.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我抱歉主席這個沒關係主席我們下一次下一次還可以再討論我們不怕欸跑得了而上跑不了廟我們這個議題一定要再追這個一定要委員會不要出去還要再討論就是說到底是有多少人到底他本來就要給半天的傷病假了半天半薪不是要半天是半薪啦半薪所以就差那一半那一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9643.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9667.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
到底是多少人?衝擊有多大?你們今天要審法案你們應該很精準啦老實說那如果照你們的現行的法律是性供法裡面就有價了為什麼你性供法裡面提不出你們自己的數據而是引用衛福部去聽去怕死人一年流傳四五萬人欸真的是台灣的女性的健康是怎麼了或是壓力負荷太大了嗎?包含墮胎喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9674.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9680.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
喔喔喔好吧那這個這是另一種思維我們再來討論好了我想喔可以再討論知識提大再討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9686.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9706.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
委員林德福等19人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 請假是不用通報,所以我們這邊不可能去掌握說就業服務法的精確數字啦,所以它是從衛福部看到的那個資料,所以如果下次要討論要請衛福部一起來,我們再跟他會好不好。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9710.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9732.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
之後也通知一下衛福部。衛福部你們的窗口應該是國建署吧?是不是?對不對?對對對。所以你們資料是從國建署那邊提供的嗎?是。OK。好。可能請他們data稍微確認一下他能不能分辨就是墮胎跟流產的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9735.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9754.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我們會後再來跟他們去詢問一下他們那個數據的那個有沒有進一步的去去做區分好這個再拜託你們好不好好那對 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9756.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9778.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
然後因為那個我們主要提案的委員萬美玲委員也來了,那是不是萬委員要不要表下意見?好,謝謝,謝謝昭偉那這邊告一個段落,我先來提一下那我這次提的這個關於第50條的一個這個修法那很清楚就是要把這個產價,原來我們現在現行是8週嘛然後希望能夠把它擴大到12週 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9780.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9791.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那我想我在這個提案上面的說明其實很清楚也就是說我們這個老計法其實在民國73年制定那這個8週的產價到現在嚴格來說其實已經有95年沒有調整過了那我們再看其實世界各國的這個產價的這個這個產價週數幾乎都比我們國家的產價來的週數長很多那中間期有到12週14週甚至於有沒有有到16週18週的都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9807.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9835.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以其實這一次其實我們在修這個產價也是居中沒有去採這個最高最優的一個標準看就是用12週來看那另外我們也知道因為現在小子女化的關係其實很多人都不願意這個生孩子所以我們當然希望在政策上面盡量給他們很多的支持我想在那個分娩如果在第二胎以上的子女能夠用1.2倍的這個薪資來發放然後受雇未滿6個月的減半來發那分娩的第二胎以上的子女用7成去來給予 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9836.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9844.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9858.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9867.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那個主席對我們剛已經解釋過對我們這三個月內會做一個評估然後來跟委員我們再請委再跟委員報告好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9870.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9890.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
好 那個對不起因為那個剛剛那個提就是部長在說明的時候可能剛好本期不在那當然我希望說我們用三個月的時間其實其實也蠻久因為這個案子提出來也有一段時間了部長其實心裡大概也有一個想法啦那我們是希望能不能夠盡量往這個方向去支持因為這個產價以世界各國看起來我現在體修12個12週並沒有特別高但是我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9896.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9912.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這一次這個修法其實已經有很多的婦女朋友們都知道這樣的一個修法提案其實他們都表示其實非常的支持跟贊成也期待也有非常大的期待所以我們也希望其實勞動部尤其部長您本身也是身為女性是不是也能夠一起來支持這樣的一個修法提案謝謝好那還有沒有其他的委員要發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9923.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9938.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
關於這個產價要延長的部分剛勞動部有特別說你們還要再找企業就是來開會那你們大概預計會多久會辦這樣子的一個就說立法院已經有這樣的提案要跟這一些業界再來做溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9939.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9963.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
一個月之內召開會議可以嗎?可以嗎?好那就是你們要一個月之內就是邀相關的企業就是再來討論這個議題好不好?我們通常都一定要牢固雙方在談因為這到底符不符合牢房實際的需求也要跟他們討論一下因為牢基法是一個很硬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9967.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9987.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
老金法比較硬啦就是說我們其實在之前的報告也都有提到他他一旦請了他就沒辦法再回來對這樣會不會反而造成他工作上的困擾啊他這個也時不時用我們對不然您剛說會造成他什麼樣的困擾我不太理解就是懷孕女性他反而他就業上的歧視啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9988.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10013.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我覺得這個是兩件事耶其實部長講這個我有點驚訝這完全是兩件事情我覺得我們對於就是就業婦女在這個職場上的保障這是另外一件事情不能說這樣她可能會回不來這樣的說法可能我覺得有欠妥事喔是委員的說法我們充分的尊重然後也支持好不好對好來林月請問一個這個方向來評估啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10016.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10031.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
若勞動部要開會議,我建議一個是找比較小型的,因為今天只有10個人的時候,我們都非常支持,因為的確少子化,我們都覺得這樣的產價 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10033.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10040.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10050.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10058.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件及衛生環境委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10069.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10092.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
還有幼兒園幼兒園是一個蘿蔔一個坑他如果放三個月的產假他到底要怎麼去聘那個老師那個老師三個月不在的時候有沒有想好替代的人現在到處都缺工幼兒園缺的連非營利幼兒園都找不到老師都是去跟公立搶嗎搶不贏人家只要非營利一下就去考公立的非營利去搶私立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10095.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10122.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
然後非營利的老師又被公立搶走那這個只要缺一天有一個老師沒在的話那幼兒園又是只有一個園長那他怎麼去負擔這些東西你不能只有找大型企業找完之後最後呢轉嫁到民間裡面的時候讓民間到底怎麼去應對那我最怕的是兒童安全的問題為什麼老師不在因為現在目前就發生這種狀況就你本來就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10123.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10149.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
當我們特休的時候在我自己都算過你到第二年如果我有五個老師那我就已經有五七三十五三十五天事實上是每一天有人請假以外那如果又遇到我說因為我剛剛講這兩個勞動產業都是女性居多可是我最擔心的是幼兒園到時候是不是一個老師帶了22個小孩子在那邊可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10150.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10168.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我今天教育部也沒在這邊那到時候怎麼去查到時候孩子出現問題的時候要不要來罵政府說那到底你們為什麼一直讓我孩子還有上次在去年度發生非營利幼兒園因為他沒有辦法請假所以他們惡虐孩子惡虐到多嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10170.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10177.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10186.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10209.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
因為就是沒辦法請假 所以老師對孩子做了大規模這樣子的一個慘不忍睹的那樣的方式 我覺得一併要去考慮否則的話我覺得這很重要 可是你們的替代要想好我說我沒有不贊成 因為的確要照顧女性可是當女性這樣產業 你有沒有只是給就算這個一個月多一個月產假的薪水 如果是勞動不出的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10211.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10214.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10233.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10260.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我覺得可能也是算是某種程度上職場上的霸凌。可能都一定要考慮。以上。好,我們請外媒林委員。謝謝昭薇。我想剛剛那個林耀勤委員說的我非常非常的贊成也非常的認同。就是我們在這個修法的時候很多的細節其實我們要去顧及到。當然大企業跟小的公司行後不同的就業職場的現場狀況是不一樣的。但是我在想 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10261.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10276.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
老段部長其實真的很難為尤其是在現在非常是缺工那每一個產業的面向又不同可是呢我還是這麼認為我想其實女性啊其實跟男性最大的不同可能就是我們有在這個生產這件事情上面不論是我們的身體狀況不論是我們的心理當時的狀況以及我們要去照顧孩子然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10282.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10297.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
還有我們要面對在認成的過程當中還有懷孕坐月子當中很多的問題我覺得其實我們是要給女性朋友更多的一些支持他們才會願意才能解決少子化的問題的其中一個要項 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10298.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10324.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
當然剛剛我覺得岳勤委員講的為什麼我也很贊成因為這些問題的確存在但是我覺得他要把它切開處理就是給部長也一個意見就是說我們要怎麼樣去看各行各業因為每一個行業裡面它是不一樣的比如說剛剛我們提到的假設我們用幼兒園來看它全部都是女性那跟用大系列來看跟用不同的這個產業別來看那我覺得問題不一定都是會一致的可是缺工有缺工在職場上應該處理的方式跟你們面對到的問題該怎麼去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10327.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10346.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
但是不能因為在哪一個產業可能女性會比較多那甚至於可能把這個霸凌都可以拿來當作就是說可能因為這個某一個女的老師她這個去休產假了然後這個缺的這個職位沒有人可以來替代然後就產生這一連串算在上面我覺得對於這個職業婦女來說太沉重所以我覺得要去解決缺工的問題但是我們對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10354.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10374.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
懷孕認成願意生孩子的這些婦女職業婦女朋友們我們要給她多一些照顧這是完全兩件事情尤其剛才部長有特別提到的我覺得從上一屆本席就在提這個案子的時候其實當時的部長就有在提到說擔心這個婦女朋友生完孩子以後就回不來我覺得這都不是一個勞動部長應該說的話如果連勞動部長都認為說女性生完孩子以後可能回不來職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10380.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10386.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這是太不得了的事情了我真的覺得對所有職業女性是抱屈啦所以我覺得這幾個面向很複雜很難解但是呢請部長多費心我們把它切開看那怎麼樣去解決這個缺工現場的問題以及我們這個認成婦女的這個權益的問題所以本席還是認為說我們去看全世界的世界的潮流跟標準我們取中間那12週其實是一個對他們的身體狀況跟對整個職場的影響我覺得它是一個折衷啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10409.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10417.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
所以我們還是希望部長往這個方向去做一個討論好不好謝謝好謝謝來廖偉祥委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10420.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10446.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
簡單來講我非常認同這個外媒領委的概念喔因為如果就好像上次我在質詢部長的時候你們的報告裡面就會寫到說這樣子可能會針對這個女性歧視的問題但我覺得這個問題是應該是兩回事因為你是一個勞動部部長當然你還是要介於這個勞資雙方之間做一個很好的溝通的橋樑可是如果你用這個理由去推脫說你覺得這個方向是不妥適或是不往這邊修的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10447.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10470.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那其實是很奇怪的一件事,因為如果你跟其他世界國家比,標準是這樣,那難道他們不會也造成這樣子的問題嗎?所以關鍵應該是說,你往這個女性權益的方向移動的同時,你要怎麼樣把其他,剛剛包含月秦委員提到的一些配套,把它做好,然後跟這個地方,跟各個產業溝通好,應該是這樣子的面向。所以我認為這個方向上應該是往這個方向前進,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10474.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10502.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
黃秀芳委員謝謝主席我再補充一下因為臺灣小型企業微型企業是佔多數我們看到是這樣子那剛剛岳勤有特別提到譬如說私人以下的這些公司如果萬一裡面有一兩個就是請產價確實可能會對這個公司可能會有一些影響那剛剛部長有特別提到說也許會有一些歧視的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10503.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10509.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10519.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10526.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件事務委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事務委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事務委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10542.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10542.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
案案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10572.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10577.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 。議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案 。 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10593.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10606.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以我們希望說部長希望你能夠在這個幾個月當中能夠提到一個更具體的一個評估的方案那我是不是可以建議就是說我們這個勞基法的部分是不是也可以擇期再審 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10611.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10611.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10630.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10646.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10649.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10675.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
桃園中醫幼兒園轉嫁到我覺得雇主身上我也同意為什麼請他們多聘替代人力否則光孩子若感冒的時候很容易傳染給老師老師平常請病假狀況就已經還蠻高一天當中搞不好若兩個人請假的話原來又有產假的那個需求那這些替代人力其他的法規的配套要不要去思考因為我們基本上都贊成產假如果能夠長的話讓女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10677.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10705.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
獲得能夠比較基本的照顧所以剛剛外媒林委員講說這是兩個問題我覺得它是要綁在一起因為會基深的誕生肌會合在一起會去思考還有一個我比較更關心的是今天如果因為這樣的狀況而能力不足的時候產生孩子傷害這個我不樂見因為過往就一直有發生這樣的狀況因為平常真的老師的能力上不足的時候一個人請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10706.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10713.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
讓一班上30個嬰兒就是兩個老師在照顧,可是30個嬰兒不應該是兩個人照顧,應該事實上是6個人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10716.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10718.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件事件事件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10746.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10773.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們請外媒林委員好 謝謝我再補充說明一下我想這個謝謝瑞幸委員對我們幼兒的關心因為我自己也在教育文化委員會我想對於孩子的照顧這是絕對放在第一的但是我覺得絕對不必然兩者有一定的關聯難道所有的額虐都是因為有老師去生小孩了嗎所以這個我是不太認同的所以我想我再說明一次那這次我們提這樣的修法其實我們去看世界各個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10774.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10789.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
如果台灣遇到這樣的困境然後有這樣的困難跟這樣的擔憂難道其他世界國家就沒有孩子了嗎所以我們看到其實我再提一次世界各國所有的產家規定至少都是10週以上日本14週新加坡16週澳洲18週國際勞工組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10791.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10818.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
也把產價最低標準放在14週甚至於建議可以到18週所以我想我們的產價只有8週是真的非常有檢討的必要而剛才我是不知道部長到底講的是一個月還是三個月的時間因為剛剛運行說一個月那事實上這個已經從上一屆我提出來的時候已經討論了四年了或者是其實這個議題大家講完了沒有出委員會或是大家熱度不在了以後其實就把它放著了那我覺得這一屆其實是應該好好去正視這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10819.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10846.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
但是不能把職場上面發生的風險跟傷害通通歸咎於某一個女性她去生產我覺得這樣是非常的不公平的所以這一次我們把它提出來8週變成12週我覺得真的可以好好照顧我們去生產的這個婦女的身心的健康那麼同時又可以鼓勵婦女在有這樣的一個權益或者是這個他們權益的保障下他們會更願意去生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10847.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10874.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那至於剛說的額略我覺得在教育現場或者是在這個幼兒園部分本來就應該有很多的防範的機制那在其他的場域如果是女性從業是比較多的但我覺得不能因此而牽涉到某一個女性她願意去生產的時候就把所有的風險或者在職場上所有遇到的狀況都讓她去承擔我覺得這樣非常的不公平所以我想這一次的修正我還是再重申我們是取中間就是八周 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10875.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10893.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件,在1995年以來都沒有修正過。現在世界各國最高有到18週,我們取代中間12週。我想它是可以達到一個在職場上企業或勞僱關係之間的一個平衡點。最重要的是可以照顧我們願意來生產的這些婦女朋友。以上,謝謝。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10902.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10924.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
月勤委員跟秀芳委員提的確實是比較嚴重的問題就是勞基法因為它適用各行各業它很麻煩我要再強調它非常僵硬的一個法所以你看像他們提到的幼兒園我就必須要會教育部然後長照社福機構我就要會衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10926.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10948.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
還有像交通部那種運輸事業單位然後那個還有經濟部我也得會就是真的我跟您報告沒有這是真的當年我們在修勞基法的時候後來發現這根本就是一個跨整個行政院幾乎所有部會都會都會必須要去處理的所以我要跟委員報告一個月真的不夠啦我謝謝你們的提醒真的起碼三個月給我三個月的時間好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10954 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10980.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
因為這個一下去會不得了 因為那個到時候各種民怨你都想像不到就會跑出來對不起 趙薇再給我兩句話就好 部長我完全尊重就您剛剛說法其實您剛剛這樣坐著眉頭說我非常能夠感受得到您的壓力跟憂心那本來就是這樣啊勞基法或者是勞動部一法動全身每一個職場上你當然要跟各個部會去做溝通說明取得共識這本來就是我們工作上要做的事沒有那麼簡單嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10982.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11011.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
您說這個一個月不夠我也OK因為它不是一件小事是一個大事但是如果您願意做我非常謝謝您因為在上一屆的時候我們提出來其實就是一個不了了之但如果我們願意投入時間你不要說三個月五個月我覺得我都可以給你但是我們要認真有進度然後真的有去溝通然後再告訴我們可以怎麼去進行那時間上我沒有問題但我希望部長不要朝著排斥的心態或是覺得很麻煩的心態然後就罰敷衍過去這樣子我就不能接受好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11013.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11040.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
好 那個還有補充嗎我有一個附帶決議就是說請勞動部這邊三個月內提出具體可行的評估方案那是不是可以用我的這個附帶決議來通過可以嗎附帶決議通過但主法案還沒有我知道但我們的法案還沒有送出去對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11041.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11069.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那個稍微我們今天法案就是沒有送出去的情況底下應該沒有通過附帶決議的問題好不好那所以那個那個剛剛聽完各位人的意見我想第一個勞動部坦白講這一個工作老早就應該要開始做了跟社會各界的溝通不是說委員會今天排審你今天才要開始溝通這個容我提醒勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11070.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11097.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那第二個剛剛其實已經答應委員會一個月就會召開就應該一個月你要先開始去召開在委員會裡面不可以改來改去部長你新部長我提醒你不要前面答應過的事情後面委員講一講然後你就順著就說喔好那這樣子一個月真的不行三個月不行喔部長你的話一出一言九鼎剛剛你在前段的時候就說一個月可以去召開會議那就是一個月開始去召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11100.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11124.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那你要分不同的對象分別去召開你勞動部人手多的是那就分不同的對象去召開我想這個對你來講不是什麼問題因為不是每一場都是你部長要主持的啦這個下面的這個大家分工去研討就可以啦那重點是外美林委員所提的啦就是說到底勞動部在這件事情上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11125.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11133.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11152.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11176.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
對女性好一點希望他可以增產報國所以我們很多的條件都在修包括過去我們不給這個家裡面有子女的這一些育兒津貼給的也沒那麼高但是因為少子化我們願意再加碼這個就是時代不一樣我們要有一些新的思維所以剛剛外美林委員他提出這樣的一個案子他還提到其實不只上屆上上屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11179.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11187.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11199.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11224.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
勞動部開始啟動了你真的去收集意見真的看看哪一些是可以突破的而不是一直原地踏步啊就是如果只是要交代委員會的虛擬故事我覺得倒是不必了但是真的認真去開會然後去找到大家可以接受的方法我覺得這個才比較有意義啦坦白講是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11225.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11232.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那找各式各樣的藉口然後回過頭說啊這個不可行我覺得這樣是比較消極了可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11237.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11238.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
另外一位? |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11238.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11238.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
另外一位? |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11238.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11238.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
另外一位? |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11261.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11261.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11272.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11292.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
同意岳勤委員的提議可以嗎?只是我一個月內開會啦。對啊,你剛剛就答應一個月內一定要開會啊。啊你真正,剛剛本來就是說三個月你要有完整的研議嘛。那個萬委員可以嗎?三個月他提出一個最周延的整個的研議方案好不好?對啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11298.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11319.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
好 那如果大家都有共識我們就請勞動部一個月之內要找不同的對象單位針對產價就是要在延長為12週的這個議題召開會議然後三個月就是要提出一個完整的這個相關配套的方案可以好 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11326.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11336.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
好那如果大家沒有意見做一下決議勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案計四案令則則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束散會 |