| IVOD_ID |
15963 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15963 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
27 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-29T08:30:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-29T11:35:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:04:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fca75a1f35c7302ecd9e2506b9d78cd73c3be8d109af184be42ca38960f23c65d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:31 - 11:35:00 |
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報告委員會出席委員10人以讀法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次的會議意思錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2045.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2058.815 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由．顯示中華民國113年5月27日星期一上午9時12分至11時27分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員、審委員、發會等12人列席委員、紅委員、孟凱等11人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2065.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2089.882 |
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列席官員．法務部政務司長徐錫祥等人．主席吳昭吉委員中線報告事項．宣讀上次會議事部決定確定討論事項．並案審查委員洪孟楷等21人擬據中澳民國刑法第83條條文修正草案等二案二．繼續並案審查委員廖偉祥等18人擬據中澳民國刑法第339條之4條文修正草案等16案本次會委員審發會等10人提出質詢 |
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2090.843 |
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2113.294 |
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委員復坤齊等二人提出書面質詢。決議一,中華民國刑法第83條條文修正草案等二案報告及詢答完畢令定期繼續審查。二,中華民國刑法第339條之4條文修正草案等16案令定期繼續審查。三,委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關警訴、送交個別委員及本會。宣讀完畢。 |
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2118.769 |
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2147.16 |
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我們先介紹到場委員黃國昌委員接著我們介紹應要列席的官員我們則主要介紹司法院秘書長吳三隆秘書長法務部部長鄭明謙部長法務部常務次長黃謀信常務次長其餘未介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2150.319 |
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2167.075 |
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本次議程是邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就《強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討》進行專題報告．並備質詢。現在進行報告發言時間5分鐘我們先請吳秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2186.525 |
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2200.631 |
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主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士本人僅代表司法院就本日的專題強化社會安全網 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2204.623 |
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2230.348 |
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暫行安置與監護處分制度以及執行機構場域安全之檢討報告如下進行指教在111年2月18日修正施行前的這個刑法監護制度那麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2233.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2248.101 |
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當時的監護期間按照這個當時的刑法87條那麼他的監護期間最多5年而且僅能在特定場所來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2250.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2271.22 |
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後來因為相關的心理社會障礙者觸犯刑法的情形持續發生所以監護制度就明顯有不足所以就針對這種監護制度還有執行來加以修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2272.697 |
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2293.286 |
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那按照這個修正或現行的這個監護的期間是可以這個無限期來持續延長但應該要隨著時間的增加來提高它審查的密度那按照現行的這個刑法87條 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2296.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2311.318 |
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監護先靠期間雖然仍然是5年以下但是在期滿前得由檢察官來申請法院延長第一次延長期間是3年以下第二次以後每次延長期間為1年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2313.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2338.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那麼雖然這個第二次以後的延長沒有處事的限制但是應該要有具體理由並且應該要隨時來檢視執行的方法以及有無繼續執行的必要避免造成不當的長期的監禁那麼按照現行的這個監護的執行方式也是多元不限於在特定場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2341.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2356.329 |
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那因為在當時那個刑法87條修正的同一天也同步來修正保安處分執行法第46條的規定那麼檢察官他可以按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2357.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2373.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
保安處分執行法46條所規定的裡面有6款的情形選擇其中一款或數款的方式來執行監護有助於提高監護的成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2375.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2388.97 |
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那接下來就是說這個在111年2月18號修正公布的刑事訴訟法暫行安置啊的這樣的一種機制齁那麼它是兼顧到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2391.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2408.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這些相關的心理社會障礙處罰者他的醫療需求以及程序潛力的保障還有社會安全的防護強化社會安全網這些都要兼顧啦都要兼顧所以按照那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2409.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2422.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
相關的那個刑事失控法第121條之一第一項的規定那麼被告經過法官行論之後認為有犯罪嫌疑重大而且有事實指認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2424.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2442.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
刑法第19條第一項或第二項的原因可能存在而有危害公共安全之餘並且有緊急必要的話可以來裁定6個月以下的期間令日這個司法精神醫院、醫院還有精神醫療機構還有其他適當的場所來施以這個暫行安置 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2447.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2468.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那這個暫行安置因為它既有基數人身自由性質所以應該要注意它整個程序的這個保障所以在刑事司法第121條之一也有很詳盡的規定並且這個在那個之二第三項也給予被告還有辯護人適當的時間來為陳述或答辯的這個準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2472.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2486.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那整個來講就是要運用整個那個關於積壓還有暫行安置還有監護必須要提供這些相關這個心理社會障礙處罰者他最適當的一個刑罰的處意 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2491.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2503.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那最後一項就是關於暫行安置還有監護的他的執行的場域的維安那這個基本上是尊重檢察官的執行啦但是法院對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2504.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2515.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
執行主規的盪火有審查的這個權限因為由相關的這個規定來看行事訴訟法第457條第一項前段第121條第4項還有這個保安處分執行法第一條還有行事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2525.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2554.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
第一百二十一條之六第一項這些規定來看那暫行安置、監護的執行乃至於場域的維安所以檢察官依照這個刑事訴訟法還有保安處分執行法來指揮那基本上是真重那因為由相關的這個最高法院的一百零八年度抬抗至八四二號的裁定還有一百零八年度抬抗至一二號的裁定這些裁定一直來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2555.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2571.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那這個法院對於檢察官執行的當後還是有審查之權那以上報告敬請指教謝謝好 謝謝秘書長下一位我們請法務部正部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2584.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2608.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生那今天受邀列席貴委員會就代表法務部列席報告並備質詢那報告內容如下那有關於暫時安置與監護的一個制度呢那暫行安置的一個制度只要是在偵審中即使給予精神障礙及其他心智缺陷、被告即使一個醫療處置來強化社會安全網 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2609.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2638.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那在執行這部分本部已經建制標準化的流程並完成相關的一個配套一個機制那監護處分的一個制度目的是降低受處分的災患危險而使能回歸社會以精神醫療照護來接觸的方式來替代完全社會隔離的監制那管理程序這部分我們是採取多元處理分級分流流動流轉定期評估與轉型的一個機制那也搭配 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2640.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2661.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
轉弦機制無用接軌整個完整的社會安全網那管理執行的具體作為有健全司法精神鑑定評估小組與分級分流的處理機制那全力來配合行政院的規劃與衛生福利部共同籌設司法精神醫院病房那建立轉弦機制召開轉弦會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2664.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2686.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那在暫時安置與監護處分執行機構場域安全的檢討這部分關於執行處所暫時安置的一個處所包括司法、精神醫院、醫院、精神醫療機構跟其他適合暫行安置的一些的處所那監護處分的處所包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2690.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2716.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們是以受處分的精神狀況來不同的一個處域以分級分流那關於司法精神醫院病房的一個監制是由衛福部跟法務部共同來設置的那進度這部分司法精神醫院病房預計在114年能夠完工那病房部分在113年底可以完成84%的一個量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2718.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2729.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
114年底會全部建制完成那執行狀況這部分的司法精神醫院在建制之前有各地檢署來洽詢醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2732.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2733.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
司法院秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2763.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2788.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
來收治那這部分的調配是由臺高檢署來負責調配呢那執行的一個安全維護這部分呢因為以收治中高度的風險為主的這些的司法精神病院呢他跟一般的精神醫療院所的病患是不一樣的所以在安全維護設施與人員足以強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2789.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2810.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那關於各地檢視洽詢醫療院所收治這部分呢那我們會依照病人的一個病況來指定設有精神科設備的醫療機構或者是衛護部指定是辦理精神疾病嚴重病人強制住院的醫療機構接受治療這是一個分級分流的一個觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2811.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2837.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那檢察官也會做定期的一個視察每個月要視察一次那至於保安處分的執行會隨時視察那如果改善的我們也會建立改善那專案會呈報法務部那有關你策進作為那我們也會由檢察機關進行視察盤點確認是我加強改善的一個必要並將結果納入伺候要繼續要指定這些醫療院所來作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2838.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2856.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
執行監護處分處所依據．法務部委員會．邀請衛福部共同辦理安全維護課程．基於政務議題．法務部本已職責與衛福部共同完善社會安全網計畫以上報告 敬請主席、各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2862.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2868.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
其餘機關報告請參閱書面 機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2883.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2899.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們就確認一下議事錄議事錄剛剛已經宣讀完畢了目前尚未確定那我們現在就先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏好 謝謝那議事錄的部分確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2901.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2918.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在我們先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2930.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2936.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝召委,麻煩有請司法院秘書長以及法務部部長兩位早,時間的關係不宜問候我想先請教一下法務部部長,就是目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2955.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2974.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
科技偵查法的草案行政院已經處理完畢了嘛在整個科技偵查的手段上面我們為了要有效打擊犯罪那有必要採取科技偵查的手段來進行犯罪的偵辦我相信這個是科技偵查法最重要的立法目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2975.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2977.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
手機定位這部分我是不是可以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3004.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3019.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
請那個我們那個方次長代位回答可以部長你應該要很熟啊你已經當到檢察長了欸好了沒有關係啊次長我不為難部長來請各位報告按照我們現行通報法的規定我們有調取票的規定可以去調取相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3020.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3041.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所謂要取票的規定是說你對於特定人藉由他的手機訊號到底在哪裡這件事情是不是法官保留的事項目前為是除了緊急狀況或者特定犯罪可以夾怪處理好我們來看一下定位手機使用的位置是屬於通保法的通訊監察沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3043.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3044.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
目前是這樣目前是這樣子嗎?好 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3073.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3086.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那如果沒有法官合法的調取票電信業者他違法的提供基地財的資訊包括手機定位的資訊違反通保法第幾條的規定這個是 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3095.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3109.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我答案都幫你寫了所以就請部長回答好嗎我沒有要考你法條啊所以我把通保法的規定一條一條都做在PPT上就是沒有要考部長法條是不是可以請部長回答違反通保法第幾條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3111.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3127.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這個第24條 這個委員寫的是24條第24條嘛那如果在執行通訊監察的從業人員假借職務上或業務上的權利、機會或方法犯前項之罪6個月以上5年以下有期徒刑 沒有錯吧這個法條是這樣寫的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3131.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3159.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
因為這個樣子我們現在傳統的方法是跟電信業者調取資訊台的資訊碼那如果我們繞一個道我們不透過電信業者我們透過M化車去取得已經知道的IMEI或IMSI就是手機或者是他的卡片上面的資訊定位他所要偵查的對象因為我們最高法院的判決認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3162.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3186.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個會去影響到目標所在對象的位置資訊那這個牽涉到個人隱私個人資訊重大的侵害所以我們必須要有法律保留原則沒有錯吧是的好那就是因為這個樣子啊所以科技偵查法草案第3條的規定才會跟通保法一樣我們原則上面啊都採取法官保留原則對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3188.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3203.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第三條的話是屬於GPS這部分他有短時間的在沒有超過24小時或者是期間未達兩日的這部分那個是檢察官、司法警察警察官他是可以就短期的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3204.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3221.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
來做一個一個這樣的一個科技偵查的一個手段那超過那個時間呢那個法官保留好我們把現行法的規範以及未來我們在科技偵查法裡面的規範我們定位清楚以後我接下來啊出現了一個讓我沒有辦法理解的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3222.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3246.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
什麼叫做沒有辦法理解的問題啊?為什麼民主進步黨的高層他可以取得大規模的手機定位資訊來進行家語分析?請注意喔!這個不是單一的事件、單一的時間、單一的場所去識別化以後的商業分析資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3247.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3272.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個是涉及到不同的時間不同的地點交叉分析使用者的個人資訊你要做這個cross reference你才有知道說在A時間假地點B時間已地點C時間定地點這三群人是不是同一群人做這樣子的分析我現在的問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3275.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3299.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這種資訊是不是我們現行法所保護的個人資訊?這個是屬於個人的資訊是不是受到現行法律所保護?是不是?若法律有保護的話當然要保護好 那我的問題來囉他如何取得大規模的這樣子的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3302.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3329.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
電信業者可以合法提供這種資訊嗎?請教部長對這個個案我並不清楚你不需要知道個案我剛剛是跟你講我們抽象的來講竟然有人可以大規模的取得在A時間甲地點B時間乙地點C時間丙地點三群人大家的手機定位資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3331.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3356.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
還知道他的年齡喔可以做Course Reference喔去具體的講經過分析這是三群不同的人這是很可怕的事情喔因為所有手機使用者大家關心的第一個問題是說這種資訊從何而來除了電信業者可以取得以外依照現行法還有誰可以取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3358.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3386.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
請教部長通緝監察保障法裡面寫得很清楚啦除了電信業者有這樣的資訊以外還有誰可以取得這個依通保法的規定當然是依通保法的規定所以我才請教部長嘛只有三種狀況嘛一個是電信業者有嘛第二個是檢察官偵辦犯罪的時候取得嘛第三個是什麼國安監察嘛除了這三種狀況以外還有其他的狀況嗎請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3391.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3406.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
請教部長我現在在想的是就我對於這些資訊的掌控、保管以及取得我也沒有漏掉其他的狀況還有其他的方法可以合法取得的請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3413.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3441.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個我們...這個個案...個案...我現在沒有在跟你講個案阿我現在在跟你講抽象的法律問題阿當然抽象的法律問題如何含涉...如何含涉到個案要不要偵辦這個就看檢察官的良心了檢察官職權上知道有犯罪嫌疑的時候要不要依法啟動調查這個要事實主義認定對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3444.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3470.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
當這個人公開的聲稱啊他有這些資訊可以進行交互的比對分析使用者位置資訊的不同還知道他們的年齡這個會牽涉到他怎麼合法取得這個資訊的問題啊如果這樣的事實還不夠明確連使用者大剌剌的都講了我有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3472.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3486.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我還取得了交互分析的資料這時候檢察官該不該介入調查這部分如果說有訴訟法245條那個228條的一個情況的話那檢察官就會啟動調查你認為這有沒有訴訟法228條的情況這個案我就不評論好沒有關係我今天公開檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3500.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3527.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我今天公開檢舉我不是那種阿會去私下關說司法的人阿我對於檢察官對於法官我作為一個法律人我非常的尊重我非常的尊重我絕對不會去做那種私下施壓或是不法關說阿的行為我今天在司法法制委員會我從通保法的規範從各自法的規範我公開檢舉這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3530.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3557.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
請檢察官發揮法律人的良知良能一定要徹底調查這件事啊太離譜啦這是國家監控嗎這個是不肖的電信業者提供的資訊還是有人在進行國安監察的時候不法的外露這個資訊給法律上沒有權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3559.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3586.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
知道使用這個資訊的人使用這顯然有犯罪嫌疑啊我今天利用這個公開的場合我公開檢舉希望檢察官依法調查您是部長我知道你處理行政上面的事情嘛檢察官的個案偵查屬於檢察官個案偵查的權責嘛但是我們法律上面的規定啊一定要講得清清楚楚要不然每一個使用手機的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3588.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3598.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
他去哪裡 參加什麼活動竟然可以被一個莫名其妙根本不是公務員的人知道部長 你不覺得這件事情很誇張嗎部長你不覺得這件事情很誇張嗎還是你覺得 這很正常啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3609.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3636.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們國家就是這樣啊這件事情再正常不過了哪有什麼犯罪嫌疑何必要檢察官介入調查部長如果說有228條的那個檢察會就會依法來處理好我認為有228條的規定我現在公開的告發我現在公開的告發我希望檢察官可以聽到我今天公開的告發來接下來請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3639.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3649.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
之前我請教郭秘書長我們現在的刑事訴訟法有依法必須要自行迴避有申請迴避兩種事有嗎?絕對沒有施壓迴避這種事嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3657.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3679.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
當然沒有施壓迴避我也知道沒有施壓迴避但法律上面不允許施壓迴避我們要檢驗現實上面有沒有施壓迴避這件事嘛上次我利用質詢秘書長的時間我公開檢舉了這件事情啊有一個金融重犯他非常有辦法非常有辦法可能是炒TDR錢賺太多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3680.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3705.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
他可以找立法委員幫他的個案推動修法甚至在他陳審他自己刑事訴訟的案件當中可以讓什麼可以讓我們高等法院高等法院的上級長官去施壓陳審的法官要求陳審的法官回避我上次公開檢舉這件事情了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3706.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3734.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
然後台灣高等法院澄清新聞稿說說我在立法院執行的時候提到本院前行政庭庭長呈現案件的陳審法官施壓要求上千字請迴避純屬誤會我那時候就公開請教過啊什麼事情純屬誤會是沒有這件事情我黃國昌在司法法制委員會詢答的時候我胡說八道 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3735.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3745.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
還是有這件事情但是他認為這不是施壓因此我們就請司法院做了調查報告來看一下這個調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3747.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3774.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
2022年8月2號這你們調查報告上面自己寫的喔這個庭長打電話給這個法官說紅庭長跟我說他跟李院長討論過了李院長指示我要上千啊自請迴避院長可以指示陳審法官上千自請迴避嗎來請教一下秘書長依照現行刑事訴訟法的規定高等法院的院長可不可以指示 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3775.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3804.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
陳審法官自請迴避向委員說明吼這個就我們有向我們司法法治委員會提出我們的這個調查調查結果啦吼調查結果這個書面吼裡面有詳有詳細細數吼我知道啦你們調查報告我看過你不用複述啦我覺得你們的調查報告在文過是非啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3805.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3814.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
英文叫做sugar code所以我才要一件一件跟你理清楚嘛我們法律人依法論法討論清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3815.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3837.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
院長可以指示陳審法官上千次請迴避嗎?這個是我的問題啊這個向委員說明我們在這個書面調查報告裡面有詳細說明當時是這個洪院長還有李院長是出於關心保護來建議紀法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3839.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3850.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以到底是關心還不是關心你牽涉到的完全是什麼個人主觀動機的問題嘛就是只是因為要所以我現在因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3851.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3852.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個向委員說明這個是司法院綜合各種資料齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3876.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3901.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
審慎綜合判斷的結果認為我沒有問你最後認定的結果是什麼我只問你現在司法院的標準是不是只要院長出於關心就可以要求陳審的法官上千字請迴避我的問題就這麼簡單因為當時按照這個台灣高等法院分案實施要點這個第10點第4款就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3902.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3930.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
是當時這個臺高院法官會議就法官有自行迴避事由之外那其他可能有偏頗之餘的情形那事先以這個抽象規定得由院長來好沒有關係剛剛你現在講到另外一個抽象規定說院長這個時候可以介入時間的關係我們下一次遇到司法院秘書長的時候我再進一步請教謝謝謝謝黃委員那下一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3931.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3933.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
現在我們請鍾嘉賓召位 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3950.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3974.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
謝謝主席的包容就像您上次包容我因為檢報的誤差給我比較多的寬限的時間也您包容我們本會委員的發言的時間接下來我們主席在場委員先進離開了列席的政府機關事長、官員會長、公眾夥伴有請我們法務部正部長和衛福部的代表李簡正衛福部代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3980.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3995.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
委員長部長好我們李義正好部長其實今天我們要談的是關於司法精神病院跟第一線醫護的安全那剛剛您在回答前面委員的問題我想請教一下這個您對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3996.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4024.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
手機、通訊業者、基地台這些大數據的管理你有深入的了解嗎?我只有基本的了解基本了解但是我建議你要深入了解其實呢自從建橋事件之後全世界這幾年來啊對於我們掌握的這些通訊資料進入到業者的大數據那麼有沒有隱私上的維護問題這是一個很深入的問題那剛剛呢關心到的那些事件我建議呢未來的科證法 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4025.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4049.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
通保法我們本委員會都會排審那希望你要指定專人好好的去研究雖然你們在司法的方面非常專業但是相關的電信跟數據的運用你們要專人來瞭解可以嗎瞭解之後才能夠做正確的一個回應好那接下來我們來看一下上次我就跟你請教過了那麼我們從基隆監護的逃犯那個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4049.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4077.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那個是一般的精神醫療機構對不對是那麼根據我們的保安處分執行法當中其實這些處所呢他的介護人員有沒有採取必要的措施這是由法務部來定沒有錯吧好那我們往下看那其實呢暫行安置與監護處分他的執行機構目前上次也跟你請教過目前我們有在規劃中的司法精神病院跟司法精神病房那麼我去查過你們的資料那你們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4077.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4095.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
用AI科技設備來做一些安全上的管理比如說我們看到報導高雄的凱旋醫院的周院長呢透過創新科技就是ISAF來建置在我們的手間的司法精神病房是不是這樣子是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4095.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4116.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那這裡面包含了一些包括他可以探測他的身體訊息、然後偵測去識別化的影像還有在公共場所進行人臉辨識你了解這些部分嗎?知道那請問除了這些司法精神專用的病院跟病房那在剛剛前述那個基隆的精神醫療機構他有沒有類似的具體安全維護措施? |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4117.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4117.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4136.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4162.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
有沒有具有這樣的能力目前是還沒有到達還沒有到達好那所以法務部的工作很重要我們往下看根據你們的報告你們打算在113年今天的報告當中114年要完成114年要收治對不對這是司法精神病院的部分司法精神病房醫院這部分醫院的部分那病房的部分呢目前在南部的已經司法精神病院已經但是看起來進度是落後的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4163.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4179.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那個我們是希望預計在今年那個北部跟東部預計在下半年就可以完成收治另外比較慢的是中部的明年會目前總共就55床對不對但是呢司法精神病院他會有0b效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4180.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4181.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
請問一下我們衛福代表,你們是不是有類似這樣的反應? |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4195.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4214.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
跟委員報告,確實我們當初在招募人員的時候,我們有考量這類醫護人員的安全的考量。好,所以來部長,你們不只在新建專門的司法精神病院,有鄰庇設施要跟社區溝通,是不是包括鄰庇設施之外,你們在籌建這個醫院的時候,還有醫療人員招募上的困難,你了解嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4215.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4240.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
醫療人員這部分這個是醫療資源部分這是由衛福部來主管所以你們負責蓋他負責來經營跟管理我們是負責在安全保全的這部分安全維護這部分設施跟培訓好那我們來看一下就是之前也跟您請教過在中間的那個案子那個案子呢他是列管後個案就送醫他是從高雄那邊有列管的好那他本身有其他的外傷我們往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4240.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4248.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
但是呢,就他的一個精神的狀況來講,我們舉例來講,請教一下衛福代表,急性精神患者,他目前有沒有風險的分級? |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4251.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4276.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
跟委員報告目前我們在社區訪視的個案他是有1到5級的分級1到5級那如果是急性的呢他要送醫院來急診處一般出院的個案我們都是把它歸類為一級都歸類為一級有分科但是目前呢我們知道你分了一級是沒有另外的額外的風險分級是不是這樣對對我們是基於照護的需要是基於照護的需要但是有沒有思考到他可能會對醫護人員產生攻擊或其他人找生威脅的情況有沒有考慮到這一點有 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4277.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4305.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
有但是目前沒有辦法做分級目前我們是有委託這個草寮有一個因為我們有一個call center所以他有個暴力風險那個評估量是的所以你們目前對於急性的精神病患疾患者你們有委託在做他的暴力風險的評估了好部長這個就一個重點了我們來看一下就你所知啊我們的警消人員他們是不是在法律上賦有他們一個禁止或處分的一個權利是的那他們也有危險的職務加急 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4307.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4314.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那你知道未來的司法精神病院對於急性的精神病急患者有沒有加擠有沒有緊急處分的權利有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4317.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4342.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
來請問報告目前我們在司法、精神病房跟醫院我們都有給醫事人員危險加給有危險加給那他們有沒有其他的對他做拘束的一些權利法律上的授權那就回歸到我們精神衛生法可能會送到保護室那又會做一些約束隔離就是精神衛生法的問題好來來部長我跟你說齁其實是這樣子這個呢我需要法務部來幫忙剛剛他們是純粹說就治療的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4343.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4366.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
會送到一個保護室去做拘束但是今天呢我們看到的是當急診送進來的時候以剛剛那個案例很有可能是這樣的情況他可能具有攻擊性他可能對他人甚至醫護人員造成一個暴力上攻擊的風險那我們在警察職權刑事法警察有強制力對不對他在28條的部分消防法21條之一20條之一他有退避權必要的時候消防人員他可以離開危險的現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4368.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4381.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那你認為未來在司法精神病院當中我們是不是要同時賦予這些醫護人員除了專業的危險加急之外應該給他適當的一個法律上的保障這部分醫療的法規應該有相關的一個具備了嗎?足夠了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4383.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4399.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
跟委員報告目前我印象中是在保職法的部分法務部有考量這個因素把他納進來法務部有考量這個因素有納進來哪一個法律告訴我們部長保安處分執行法保安處分執行法有沒有我們會這部分草案目前是草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4400.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4424.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
目前是草案嘛好所以今天我們談這個議題很謝謝趙偉排這個議題因為這個議題呢我過去我在衛環也關心過在這裡也關心過所以我們希望你們考慮往下一個怎麼樣完善面對急性精神病患者面對這些急性的精神病急患者的醫護人員他的安全跟待遇未來你們的司法精神病院這些人天天暴露在這第一險的可能風險當中你認為呢的確是 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4427.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4449.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那是不是這樣子那我是不是可以請剛剛衛福部說他們有一個暴力風險的評估正在研擬當中你們目前的法案也在整修當中什麼時候可以給一個完整的報告讓我們委員會來幫我們這些未來的司法精神病醫院當中的醫護人員給他們一些保障那我們來盡速推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4450.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4467.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
好,那麼一個月內提出一個書面報告,可以嗎?可以那你裡面要包含魏副剛剛說的對於急性精神病急患者的暴力風險評估以及他們,你們在緊急處分的時候的一些法令上給予這些第一線人員的一些授權,可以嗎?可以好,謝謝謝謝謝謝,謝謝鍾委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4476.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4476.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4511.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4514.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們現在先休息三分鐘 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4541.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4548.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4560.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4560.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4581.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4582.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4600.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4610.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4629.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4630.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4711.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4711.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
莊銳雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4737.674 |
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4738.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
政務司司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4756.311 |
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4779.622 |
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我要來先就教我們鄭部長我想在上個禮拜台灣算其實是不太平靜當然不是只有我們立法院立法院這個競技場本來就是時空見慣那上個禮拜我們就看到像除了說整個終結的一個砍人事件以外讓社會相當恐慌的就是另外一位受監護處分的就是 |
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4780.702 |
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4809.349 |
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從基隆某間醫院脫逃以後在北部這個地方這樣流竄我相信就是因為造成一些恐慌才讓臺北市有一些學校它才暫停的一個開放幸好到最後是落網但是同時這個案件 個案也透露了讓國人去意識到說我們整個監護的一個處分到底哪一些地方必須要再去補破網的一個地方 |
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4810.325 |
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4832.495 |
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那這次的個案裡面你說從法院依殺人未遂去判處3年然後在執行刑法前先進行5年這樣的一個監護你全案定驗以後交到台北地檢署去執行那今年3月排到基隆某精神醫院的一個監護這個程序看起來好像都很順暢但是社會上很多案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4834.335 |
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4857.473 |
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看起來其實不像我們所看到的這樣子也就是說一個人是不是受監護的一個處分你等法官判決那判決確定以後檢察官再按照這個情況去找適合的一個處遇的一個機構我想請教部長就是說你們認為現在最大的問題處在什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4859.982 |
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4876.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
目前我認為最大的問題就是因為監護處的確是要醫療照護來代替那個那個就把它當作屬性把它界定在病人的這個這個主體但是因為我們現在醫療的這部分的有 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4878.131 |
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4898.437 |
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醫療處所的這邊的資源是還不夠的那而且最主要就是有意要做這些有管理監護執行監護受治監護處分的這些的醫院的意願不高在現在有這些的其實說有這些的充分的比較多的資源的醫院這部分我沒有去了解是意願是不高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4898.937 |
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4913.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那我們也擔心就是有醫院高的那這些收治的這些的處所是這些的醫療的這些的資源這些尤其是安全維護的這個措施是不是足夠那這部分我們也是要去比較擔心的不然一定是不夠啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4914.059 |
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4941.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那所以說我們才會去跟有行政人員統籌來籌設精神司法精神病房醫院的這些的這個速度齁這個速度其實齁要建制還有很長一段路要走了我請教秘書長就是說秘書長你譬如說啊法官就下一個判決下完了以後啊接下來脫離法院啦齁是是是依你們所看到的你們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4943.376 |
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4969.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我們檢方這樣的一個執行你有沒有看到什麼樣必須要趕快這個網把補起來的地方我舉例啊假設這個案例啊假設有幾個案例是在媽祖媽祖受刑人在媽祖或者說這個被判決應該受監護的對象在媽祖我媽祖我沒有部長你媽祖只有檢察官我才會提到一個而已嗎一個檢察官會提到一個而已嗎對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4972.486 |
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4991.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那你要人要送到哪裡?假設送台北,然後這個訪視,然後這個要去追蹤,這受監護人,一個地檢署要執行。那換言之在做這個報告的時候,你們到底有沒有什麼樣一個全盤的考量?我先聽你講完以後,我再來講我的看法。 |
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4994.044 |
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5006.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
就是法院假如說針對這個個案他有一些障礙的話那會認為說宣判的時候會給他一般會所監護多久 |
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5008.715 |
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5028.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那這個在接下來就是判決之後的執行就是會請我們檢察官就是用比較適合的方式來看就這個個案是到底是在哪邊用什麼方式來執行會比較適合秘書長我跟你講檢察官也不是醫生 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5032.08 |
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5053.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
媽咪精神科醫生我們其實也都可以撿來玩太多太多的一個責任但到底這個怎麼辦你說我們上次在2022年修法這個刑法87條把原本監護期間5年增訂無延長次數的監護期間對不對連這個其實我都有意見的啦但是後來為了補這個整個社會安全網我手是舉起來是贊成的啦不然以我在 |
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5060.939 |
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5081.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
鄉間所看到的個案我看到有一個在我們地方上可以說是人民的精神導師導師啊什麼人有痛苦啊什麼人家庭有問題啊什麼改革啊都要找他告解都要找他排解要跟他說完之後他就這樣大家民眾就很高興那些大廟的主委有一天啊他晚上來拜訪我拜訪我 |
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5090.066 |
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5110.612 |
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崩潰了,大哭,我嚇一跳。他是鄉民的神,怎麼可以對我這樣崩潰,大哭。他說我的孩子,要猥褻,要判三年,要把他關二十年,我聽到說網告有可能,這個猥褻也有可能,但是我第一個想到的就是監護處分,都要依啊,都要依啊。他的孩子,看到人要幫忙收領, |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5121.308 |
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5125.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
社會安全網不補起來又不行可是這一種又你一下子你刑法你就知道猥褻就不是那麼高嘛可是呢一屆一監護處分以後啊快20年 |
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5149.435 |
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| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
就一個動作殺人犯在處理起來殺人犯有這麼乖嗎?不乖嗎?沒那麼久啊所以這個我是就發現很困難的一個地方所以我為什麼特別去舉媽祖的地方我沒地方就跟他說媽你發生什麼事你媽祖我看你要怎麼辦媽祖你們現在廚藝機構夠嗎?你們還有嗎?媽祖地檢署、媽祖地區還有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5171.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5188.107 |
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馬祖只有那個那個他醫療是不夠的不夠齁是啊所以我要說的就是說好啦你現在司法精神病院大家都希望要經濟推動我說現況如果像那一種 |
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5189.851 |
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5213.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這個就有點類似前陣子在講新北市那個鎧鎧鞍一樣嘛在新北 到底要付錢給新北而已啊後來在照顧照顧機構 要出洋的時候是台北市中間就出現問題啦那如果說你今天是媽祖地檢署的檢察官你本來一個月要去看一次的兩件你就無時了咧你媽祖你沒啊 |
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5217.634 |
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5239.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
如果你放在台北呢?假設那個受監護處分的人是在松德呢?所以監裁委員才會去跟你們講說你們這個跨區的處分這樣的一個安置的問題啊你們會出現很大的問題啊第一個,前兩關搞不好也心不甘情不願了前兩關講說阿楊,你為什麼不叫我來? |
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5240.814 |
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第二個就是說你整個後續追蹤醫療的一個困難還有整個社區的一個機制你怎麼樣去完善這個都缺乏我們現在是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳 |
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5256.704 |
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5274.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
為了補足說大家社會要求你整個社會安全網你怎麼樣去把它做一個補起來所以我一直都認為今天張偉排這個是很有意義的所以我在講說那至少監察院現在跟你們提出的這些事項你們做出了哪一些精進的作為我想請教這個要補充 |
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5280.141 |
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5306.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這部分其實我們對暫時安置跟監護處分的這部分事實上現在是進入到第二期第二期那我們有一個標準的一個流程那另外我們也做一個精神就是一個精神的鑑定、個案評估包括轉嫌其實這些都是我們有完善的一個做一個措施了那這邊都規劃好了那我們希望最主要還是能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5306.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5307.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
委員會主席 |
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5324.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5350.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
其實怎麼樣去建制比較完善的一個受案的一個制度還有去追蹤這個流程我相信這個是社會大眾期待的因為社會大眾認為說我不想陷於這樣的一個恐懼啊如果說打擊犯罪或者司法審判你司法院要審判 我想你都做得到啦打擊犯罪不中你都做得到但是你法務部要管的事情就是那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5351.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5372.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個也是你的業務的一環我們也期待你要重拾國人對整個司法制度的一個信心連這個讓國人免於恐懼不然現在你的責任所以不是只有前端打擊犯罪而已連後端這一些社會安全網你怎麼樣去把它做一個建制所以我是認為因為部長先剛上任我沒有要求太多但至少 |
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5379.011 |
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5388.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我看連監察院跟你們所提出來這幾項那個確實也是重點啦你們特別要再加強一下啦因為這些社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5389.212 |
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5413.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
每一個地方都會碰到所以大家不願意把它讓它浮上檯面只有個案出現的時候大家才去討論否則這個問題很大我也不能去講說整個社會安全網的一個建制裡面碰到一些個案就會覺得說這對人身自由的一個剝奪個案常常會跟這個社會安全網大家這整個制度裡面會產生有衝突的一個地方怎麼樣去調和但重點是說 |
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5417.123 |
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5445.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
確實是人力、物力、剛我提案的、收案的這個整個機制還有整個個案事後的那個整個整個處分裡面、監護處分裡面如何去做一個追蹤尤其是我剛提到那個部分你那個跨區那個整個跨區如何去安置的一個部分這個其實都是值得我們法務部要再去做更 |
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5446.611 |
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5472.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這部分公園報告我們其實就是用分流的一個方式來分級的一個管理嘛那像我們司法精神病院的話醫院病房的話其實我們那個收治的一個強度照顧的強度會比較強因為的確是對這些比較有中高度社會危險性的這些受監護人我們要比較好的一個照顧那這次有比較多的一些的資源給他那如果說比較輕的話那我們就是甚至門診就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5473.166 |
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5475.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我相信這一塊在立法院大家會給你們支持啦但是你們也要做出更好的成績我們最怕的就是說大家跟你們集齊 |
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5501.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5517.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
你告訴個案出來以後又變成又破功以個案來看全貌也沒有道理啦也沒有道理啦但是你們真的要加強的地方還很多啦好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝莊委員那接下來我們請省發會委員發言 |
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5538.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5541.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
主席我們請鄭部長部長委員早部長早剛才我聽到前面的委員有在關心有相關透過手機訊號取得人流特性分析的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5563.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5580.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
有委員提出個案來討論那我想這個問題現在如果說這個現在這個議題大家國人關心的話我就是希望說我們是不是就針對這個現在目前相關的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5582.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5594.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
不管是公務機關或者是商業活動有關於這個透過手機訊號來做這個人流分析相關的人流分析我想有相當多的個案那這個我這邊看到這個是公開的新聞稿這個新北市政府有關他們在宣傳他們的這個耶誕城 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5607.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5611.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這個新北葉旦城的交通大數據他們也提到說他們利用手機訊號等等大數據資料來即時監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5615.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5635.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那我想這個跟剛剛前面委員所提到的案例應該是相當的類似所以是不是請部長能夠一併這些案件一併了解好不好是 剛才委員有提到手機的電位事實上它是沒有內容的它跟我們通訊監察必須要內容的這些談話的內容那這個是單純的數據的分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5640.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5655.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
對,既然國人有疑慮也有委員在委員會提出來那我們就這個問題我們要做了解啊到底新北市政府的這個他們所做的這個交通大廈他們所提出的他們自己宣傳的說利用google還有這個利用手機訊號 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5657.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5675.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
來分析這個人,他們還做出這個人流分析的統計啦,他的年齡,他的這個白天上班啦,他的是年輕人還是學生他這個都有分析啊,不是像他們所說的只有昨天他們新北市政府說他們去個資化之後都只有會場人數滯留時間來回方向 |
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5678.433 |
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5701.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他們自己的網頁裡面就新北耶誕城人流分析就不只這些資料阿他也有年齡、性別、職業等等相關的分析資料所以這個我沒有說對或不對啦齁我只是說這個顯然是相同的分析方式嘛跟剛剛委員所提的提的是相同的分析方式那就如果這個就能夠一併了解一併調查好不好還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5702.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5723.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
不只是這兩個案子啦所有現在目前在商業上面利用這個手機利用這個手機訊號取得的這些人現在有很多的商業應用在商業市場上進行的活動調查他都要透過這個方式嘛這部分大家到底有沒有相關的違法是不是能夠整個一併調查好不好 |
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5724.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5746.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
是 這個是屬於那個數據的一個分析 這個是應該 這個我們再來做一個就是一併處理了 這個顯然不是個案 這個是新北市政府等等相關的這些商業單位都常常在做的這個手機的訊號的人流分析大數據的人流分析 這個部分一併了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5750.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5770.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
接下來我們回到今天的主題有關於暫行安置與監護處分的部分我們2022年1月有進行立法院針對暫行安置的部分有刑事訴訟法的修正還有監護處分的部分針對刑法87條、98條、保安處分執行法都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5775.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5794.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這個2022年也就是兩年前的1月做了這個修正對不對部長那做這個修正但是我在這個我從我們的統計連線上面來找大概只能找到到111年以前的這個相關的這個辦理保安處分的情形就是有關這個統計數有關監護有關於這個監護處分的部分有人數的統計數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5803.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5817.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那這個但是他也到111年為止所以我想請問部長是不是能夠現在有沒有同仁能夠提供有關於這個我們這個新制上路之後這個目前被判這個監護處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5819.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5839.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
跟這個暫行安置他的這個處分的人數先在手上有沒有資料跟委員報告那個暫行安置今年到5月17號為止是有8人暫行暫行安置有8人那那個監護處分這部分到目前就是到5月17號有224人224人監護處分監護是224人 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5847.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5872.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那這個因為我們修法之後吼這個這個有關於監護處分吼他的這個這個最高的這個可以延長的年限吼他的這個變成沒有上限了對沒有上限那請問部長你們這邊有沒有統計目前這個我們所累計吼我們目前監護處分最長是多少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5874.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5895.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
目前我是沒有這個資料,我另外再提供給委員現在改成沒有上限了,所以現在這個受監護處分的目前最高的年限本來是五年嘛,後來改成五加三加一而且無限,所以我想了解說目前受這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5896.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5917.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
最長的這部分我再提供給委員請部長這個了解之後再提供資料給本席那這個我現在因為這個新法上路所以這個新制上路之後我們想要了解有關這個暫行安置這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5920.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5936.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們是依這個檢察官依個案認定還是他有一個一致的統一一致的見解類似像量刑系統這樣還有一個統一的說什麼樣的情況之下要做暫行安置還是說完全沒有任何標準就由檢察官自行就個案認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5937.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5962.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這跟委員報告這個是依據刑訴訴訟第121條之一之一它裡面就是有刑法第19條第一項第二項的的一個情侶就是他精神有障礙或者心智精神障礙或心智缺陷他沒辦法去辨別他的行為的違反性等或者是顯著的降低降低那個行為的變化而且他最主要他有攻擊性他有危害公共安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5962.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5982.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那這邊在偵審中的話在偵查審理中的話就檢察官就會依申請那如果審理中法院法官也會依職權來對那我在檢察官提出申請的他有沒有標準他是不是必須要進行是不是符合符合剛剛所講的精神障礙心智缺陷他行為能這個這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5985.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5999.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個沒有對說,因為這個我現在只是想了解說目前我們的狀況是是由檢察官就個案自行去認定還是因為你在這個監護處分的部分它是有評估小組的有評估小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6000.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6014.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
各位幫這裡面有那個一個專家的一個資料庫我們會請專家來做一個鑑定就是說關於這邊要循環19那個那個精神障或心智缺陷的情形我們會做要做一個一個精神會做鑑定嗎?我們會做一個鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6017.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6031.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們有個專家知道這部分有我們目前檢察官要做這個要專家來建立因為檢察官沒辦法去判斷這個是不是有達到那個他要提出這個暫行安置的申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6032.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6047.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
有經過鑑定嗎?要做一個鑑定說是不是在一個有合乎到19條跟希望19條第1項第2項的這些的一個情形所以我們現在目前現行是有經過鑑定才提出申請嗎?對 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6050.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6061.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那這部分也要,不然檢察官不是醫生沒有那個專業好好好,這樣子我就了解啦,因為我了解說這個監護處分的部分他目前是有經過一個評估小組齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6064.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6086.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
有依法有評估小組的評估但是在暫行安置裡面目前並沒有我們請那個黃次長來次長跟委員報告一下那監護處分的部分當然按照我們法律規定它要有評估小組的評估但是委員你提到的是這個暫時安置因為暫時安置它是發生在案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6087.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6107.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
發生當下他很緊急的要向法院申請他還有一些這個法院規定的20小時的問題他比較積壓的規定嘛所以在現實實務上我們當然如果可以的話我們可以緊急的進行評估如果有些醫療資源比較欠缺的話我們就沒有辦法進行緊急評估的話就由個案的甲官去認定符不符合我們暫行安置的要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6108.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6134.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個比較符合我的理解不可能每一個案子都是去進行鑑定鑑定之後才申請所以這個部分我是認為說雖然說法律沒有明定但是是不是有關暫行安置的部分我們可以參酌監護處分的方式有這樣子相關的評估小組來進行以避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6134.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6135.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那這個有關齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6150.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6172.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
現在不管是進行暫時暫行的安置或者是監護處處分現在現在因為我們這個這個這個他相關的這個安置安置的場所有有重疊的部分這個這個有關這個監護處分的部分他是司法精神醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6173.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6186.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
司法精神醫院、醫院、醫療院所監護處分的部分另外還有其他的包括令身心障礙機構其他適當監護場所甚至盡心照顧等等這些都包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6188.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6209.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那我因為他有重複的所以我想要了解就是說目前暫行安置的受暫行安置的跟監護處分的這些被處分者他們是有分開處置還是在相同在有可能在同一醫療院所或同一個共同安置有這樣的狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6215.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6215.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6246.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6252.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
維護保護公共安全的人力跟設備的標準這部分請法務部提供給本席好不好好 謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員進行詢答有請鄭部長麻煩部長上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6276.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6300.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
委員長部長好在詢問你有關於我們現在監護處分制度的相關問題之前我有一個疑問想要請教一下部長我想請教一下你有聽過這段話嗎20歲到40歲就是有些是小草有些當然是太陽花的佔了活動的六成 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6300.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6320.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我們用手機去看他的年齡差不多六成那些年輕人的臉孔民進黨很久沒看到這些人跟原來的小草我們有去比對過他跟原來這個在五一七民進黨樓下的那些小草訊號比較起來也是不同人 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6321.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6331.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那就是說小草也沒有跑那這批人跟上次我們的選舉1月13號之前的選前之夜比對也沒有關係然後這段話誰說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6335.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6363.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個我不清楚你不清楚其實你一定清楚只是你不方便講而已我幫你講民進黨的這個政策會執行長王逸傳講的當時他電視節目講主持人很驚訝現在進步到這種地步可以這樣比喔然後他說因為你去對他的什麼基地台訊號就對得到我要請教一下部長我們在打擊犯罪的時候資通訊科技會用得到吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6364.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6385.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我會用得到我們有辦法像民進黨這麼厲害 比對到分項年齡層、太陽花的佔比、年輕人的佔比跟選前之夜某個集會跟某個集會的佔比、年輕人比較 哪些人有來哪些人沒來 我們法務部做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6389.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6398.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
法務部做得到嗎?你現在資通信科技做得到嗎?我告訴你啊 資通信科技很大 跟民進黨多學習啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6399.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6421.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
你講這麼棒很偉大欸比對到這種程度啊你今天如果說今天我們去查幫派組織對不對今天幫派組織在某個上里面出現了多少人去比對他的訊號然後幫派組織在某個地方開紅門宴對不對那個所有的那個旗袍禮服然後紅地毯走過去有嗎不是嗎之前很多這個狀況對不對有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6423.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6444.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
以前啊不是有一些幫派他們會有一些大型的集會啊法務部不會說沒有這些集會吧有沒有有沒有掌握啊以前這些集會有沒有掌握啊這個會會這個有修法會會掌握嘛你執政之所在嘛沒錯嘛對不對部長這個這個我們會依法來處理當然嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6444.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6470.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那我想請問 那可不可以用這個工具不過他那個 剛才委員有提到的那一部分當然也有 不解散 有不解散的我們就會沒關係 我要這樣講那如果說單純的集會 這部分我們不是 我們法務部在不是啊 我跟你講 我當然不是說集會 我說幫派啦幫派的一些所謂的活動齁 那你們今天這個犯罪針防齁那警政單位齁 你有沒有辦法比對這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6472.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6491.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我是鼓勵你喔鼓勵你效法民進黨民進黨很厲害能比對的我們是依法行政我第二個要請教你喔這樣比對有沒有問題啊這個是屬於手機的數據的分析嘛對手機分析通報法我們是主要是規範中華電信可以提供這些資料給民進黨中央嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6493.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6516.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
可以嗎手機基地台可以提供嗎電信的基地台可以提供這些資料給他嗎包括年齡分析喔包括517在這個所謂的那個青島東路出現的人跟你民進黨這個113選前之夜出現的人到底哪些人來哪些人沒來裡面年齡層分布我們的電信的基地台可以提供這些資訊給民進黨嗎可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6517.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6530.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
就法治論你告訴我可不可以這個在通報法裡面並沒有規範這個問題問你可不可以嘛可以是不是如果說法律沒有禁止那我們非常好我鼓勵還不住啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6532.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6558.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
法務部在這邊跟我講合以啊沒問題好棒棒啊資通訊科技可以這樣子去老大哥去監控我們的名是沒有問題的我今天聽到部長你背書啦沒有我跟委員報告我們法務部我們是依法行政我當然知道你們法務部不會幹這種事啦好不好我就問嘛法務部會不會做這種事會不會做不會吧你已經講依法行政你們依的法就沒有不能做這個事嘛不會你跟我講你們依的法可以做這個事嗎可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6561.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6588.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
部長 你停了五秒鐘 我知道你很為難好啦 我不再為難你啦因為我答案 我已經跟委員報告過了沒關係啦 我跟你講 我不為難你啦你也停了很久可是我要跟部長講一件事情今天我也不是 我是提醒部長你作為民進黨的 政府的法律守門人民眾的資通訊的保障也是法務部很重要的一個職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6591.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6616.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
如果說今天你竟然跟我講說這個沒有違法那抱歉齁,我不能接受啦我不能接受,那意思是民進黨愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹不能因為他是執政黨,我們的標準就有點寬鬆沒關係,部長,不為難你我接下來要請教您齁我目前全台灣監護處分的人數有多少目前224人那我們機構內執行監護處分有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6621.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6635.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
186人 收治在29家醫療機構司法精神病院預計2025年底建置完成以目前現有司法精神病房的規劃是怎樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6637.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6665.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那目前的話就是已經在完成收治的已經是南部的我們有規劃4個司法精神病房那南部已經在收治了那北部的是預計在今年9月會收治那東部的是也是9月會收治那比較慢的是中部的是在115年預計115年收治那至於司法精神病房這部分也是115年預計會完工收治 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6667.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6669.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
本月19日基隆南光醫院逃脫監護處分人整整逃亡4天 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6681.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6697.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
一路從基隆、臺北、最後在新北被找到目前基隆市已經針對醫院延誤通報5小時進行懲處當然這次監護處分人跑出來的責任醫院看起來是比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6698.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6720.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
但是我們的郭次長也說司法精神病院病房落成之前那各地檢署為了收治監護處分人在轄內醫療機構收治安全程度上可能會有落差那我想請問有沒有了解一下這次處分人會脫逃的原因還有相關的一些改進的措施可不可以跟大家說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6720.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6746.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那這部分我們還在進行來做一個解決因為目前還沒有結果因為這還剛發生的事情也發生了半個月了啦 對不對將近嘛那這部分我們也是會要求那個醫院處所來做一個改善我覺得齁 這個事情也不能完全就是說交代醫院處所改善啦我覺得法務部本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6748.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6775.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
今天作為一個主管機關把原因找出來很重要嘛 對不對這個我們已經通令我們已經請那個各地檢署再有關你再收治的這些醫療機構這部分的安全維護的一個設施是不是有到位我們也是在要求他們來做一個解決一個檢視盤點那我希望法務部你還是要把整個檢討報告就當作一個專案的一個小組啦相關的檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6777.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6796.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
原因、然後發生的過程、然後甚至將來怎麼樣去防治、防處、然後什麼防範那不要讓類似事件發生因為每一次個案的發生其實當然民眾會產生心理的恐懼可是今天這個案發生我們就要從個案當中去學取經驗嘛把沒有做好的地方把它做好不是嗎 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6798.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6798.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
接下來我們請謝龍介委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6834.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6839.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
主席,我請保證及經濟事務麻煩部長還有警政署代表保證好,給我站我是在這裡先請那邊侮辱一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6863.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6872.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
馬英九做拜登的總統﹐他沒有對他在野黨做敬禮敬鳳﹐當然我在中相會跟他說﹐總統你如果做這個事情﹐是對台灣很大的傷害﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6876.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6887.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
他說他保證他絕對不會對在野黨做政體金融我說這樣最好因為你今天可以對在野黨做政體金融相對你就可以對東來的同志跟你意見不一樣甚至他還是不一樣的派系你還是一樣的做這個政體金融是不是這樣所以北黨國民黨的執政完全不去對著民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6906.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6927.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
來做所謂的整體進行那麼到了民進黨執政之後正四年離空一九年你的好朋友我們的情人在三月十八離空一九年的三月十八挑戰蔡英文登記總統初選我要跟我們的國務委員說這很重要也很誇張 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6937.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6942.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
請問你當時是怎樣?請問總統不能用國家的機器對付我請問總統不能再用盟軍對付我這句話我聽起來很辛苦因為在他初選後的後面我拿到的資料我為什麼要請經濟事務出來搞到 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6967.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6970.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
今天你所謂的在政敵通信裡面可以去監控人民這是非常可怕老實說今天你心想機會如果今天你繼續用這個手段來對付台灣人、對付在野黨甚至控制公務人員這是非常惡劣的訴訟為什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6999.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7008.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
因為在19年 落選到三月十八 挑戰蔡英文的時候 她的民調是贏蔡總統26%至28% 儲算登記了是45天就要比賽了結果 一言再言 讓你言兩次 也不可能在兩個半月內逆轉這26%的一時多 用什麼逆轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7030.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7032.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
因為中間的所屬的民調他就是所有每一處執法我請問經濟事務局的董林你覺得大過的刑事局?沒有你不罰?不罰一套通信系統是我們的當局犯罪在立法院執法的時候刑事局是第一套在刑事局採用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7060.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7068.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
所以只要你若是台獨提到手機﹖很快我們就能監控他的行動那麼這個國安單位呢﹖夠我看到﹖在半截韓國禄舉辦一個活動﹖現場有十八萬的群眾﹖設立﹖進入這個基地台後﹖對MSC處理﹖入來告處理﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7089.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7105.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
處理了要轉換一個基地台這個基地台的範圍如果是3公里如果這樣它的設定 譬如說12分鐘例如在這個基地台停留15分鐘以上標示 例如來參加這個活動他是這樣控制的所以民進黨在轉移焦點 他說我沒有啊 這新北市在辦活動也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7117.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7129.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
前百次是我們辦大型的活動,就是說國家的經費,是利用這樣在感覺說有很多人,統計人數,這不是,他們這個活動已經針對你手機了,我同時是經費的手機了,不是我個人的名字,所以說這手機要找一個80歲的老人來在這裡,不是,那是我媽媽的名字,南省、陸省幾歲? |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7147.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7153.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
以定期的戶籍大力度這是國安單位嚴重概念經濟事務原本就頗有這個作業但是是不是可以調到這樣我們不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7162.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7176.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
所以 立法院在最後呢 比到這種大數據的分拆之後 又在民調裡面 過程裡面 有很多黑暗的東西這是現在的東京 聖殿下 立總統 新手機械如果今天你的民進黨的政策會 跟我們的台書記 把這些東西公佈出來不然你不覺得台灣的前途堪憂嗎齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7191.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7195.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
不是說這有合法沒合法的,這是絕對沒合法的絕對沒合法尤其經濟術應該很清楚我們如果統一法用這套系統統一時的平時局我們有一個歐盛局長姓歐 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7219.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7222.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
不要理會國安黨 這個是個手在叛讀這裡的訴苦 這個是個手但是每一張大型的活動公務人員的手機啊 有進來停留15分鐘以上 停留30分鐘以上 停留45分鐘以上 都一清理車他可以對你做政體監控所以這是一個很嚴肅的課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7248.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7260.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以補充我要跟你說的就是關於這種問題你不能說有也好沒也好,要很嚴肅,有機會總統如果問他的時候你要告訴他你要說那個食糧界在說你過去薪水有機會,來補考人家可以去講這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7271.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7283.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
你會記得嗎?我之前在媒體在講的時候在分架的時候,很多人跟我說不可能啦,怎麼會有這個事情一直到我們疫情大爆發,芒果一般發出60萬通的簡訊,你會記得嗎?那個時候人家跟我說,啊!都跟你說得對,本來因為我們看到有的事情,我們不便在台面上說嘛為什麼你什麼人經過芒果那四口冷凍,那60萬通的簡訊怎麼發出來? |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7302.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7310.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這所有本來就都在的,國安單位要拿誰是可以拿,但是你不應該拿出來做政敵用途啊!這非常惡劣!經紀人你請回答,不然我頂著來,頂著拜,因為你沒有來啊!我有探討這個... |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7326.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7341.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
詐騙匯款的問題,金管匯到你們出張,那天不是他們出張啦,有來,我不知道金管匯到哪有看你們匯董去演繹啊,就是說我們匯款處理齁,要有一個認證機啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7345.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7372.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
有的人放便宜大家開始要花錢都很謹慎甚至人家扣錢、親人扣錢、警察扣錢啊你不要啦單錢花去了喔兩百萬花出來啊他才開始想說讓我這樣我問我女兒我問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7373.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7376.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
有一個認證期 金管委說要回答你們 大家重新來這裡做一個報告 有沒有跟你們回答討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7383.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7397.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個委員提的這個意見齁 這個是屬於金管會主政的業務那這部分我們是 但是當局犯罪時你如果你要提供一些辦案的訴苦 跟他要定幾點鐘或是多少金額 啊不要去封他就金融特殊這樣情形下這個法不可以完畢 而且還可以檢焦詐騙的案件啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7408.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7414.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
因為這牽扯到那個金融的秩序的一個問題,我們還是尊重金管會的一個...我知啦,阿你愛提,就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7418.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7432.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
習近平的金額大概在多少到多少?什麼樣的金額?不然有的人跟我們一樣,企業跟人說要調錢要入票有的沒的,他現在金額還要用這個做理由?所以他要花多少時間、那個認證期,還不去放在這個商業的特殊、金融的特殊,如果可以幫助我們打擊犯罪、放置詐騙,我是在說什麼?他有說要重新來 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7447.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7461.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
報告 接您 要延期嘛 我現在問說他說合理延期啊目前還要再 還沒有不是啦 這您在主動應該是前 是因為這部分我告訴你 保證 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7462.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7472.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
針對這個犯罪的形態及內容及模式 他們比較不懂但是針對金融及最高的特殊的威嚇 他們比較懂 我們比較不懂所以這就是看保安 你們一定要磨合了 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7480.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7489.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
來到本會來重申說這真重要因為我現在這樣提出之後各方的意見都覺得這個會判處理後面有一個兩小時、三小時或是一小時的冷靜期對方那個會期那個中和可以去捏錢這樣因為很多人是集會了就換會了比較保安不會付啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7504.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7505.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
下一位陳俊宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7540.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7544.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好 主席吳釗瑋我們請鄭部長好 麻煩鄭部長好 部長早委員好部長早在前兩週啦齁前兩週我們這個監護處分人從基隆這個某醫院脫逃的案例那在整個大台北地區流竄4天後落網短短幾天的時間我們也看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7568.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7588.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
除了警力、權力棄捕一時間大量的新聞報導情況之下也在網路上流竄了他的行蹤地點那我想都讓民眾感到相當的恐慌那幸好最後在沒有發生遺憾的情況之下成功將這個男子棄捕歸案 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7589.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7613.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那今天特別感謝吳釗偉所排的這個專報不但是對於先前脫逃的這個事件做一個檢討也能夠對於我們日前暫行安置與監護處分制度的執行狀況來做一個詳加檢討那我想不論是暫行安置還是監護處分都是為了要兼顧刑事和醫療的需求也是我們社會安全網重要的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7614.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7631.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
但在保障人權的前提之下應該還是要極力避免脫逃的這種狀況再發生那我想請教部長我們現在對於暫行安置或是監護處分在執行的過程中這種防逃的機制應該要如何來落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7635.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7654.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這部分我們在規劃的時候我們在加強這個安全維護的設施跟人員的訓練這部分我們是會落實那我們在指定目前是司法精神醫院還沒有建制完成只有一個司法精神病房 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7654.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7680.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那我們目前的這些的安置的這些收治的一些醫療處所我們是會著重看他的整個一個設備跟安全譬如說他的門禁的一個管制以及他那個萬有發生的這些的事件的時候他如何去啟動這個防逃的這些逃出去的一個機制那上次基隆那個應該是在放風的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7681.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7682.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這部分我們會再重整 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7700.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7721.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這也是提醒啦就請我們法務部這邊就對於這方面應該做提升那我剛剛聽應該部長您也有想法啦那我希望應該要落實那我們從這個基隆的個案來看醫院是不是有違反這個保安處分的相關法規有嗎這部分的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7722.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7724.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
對於收容醫療機構的安全,我想這種外衣介護的部分請教部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7744.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7745.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這部分我請那個我們那個房次長來待會回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7772.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7785.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
委員好那有關於那個介護人員我按照我們相關規定我們介護出所我們是得設介護人員那現在如果沒有設的話我們另外也規定可以由這個介護機構他去僱用相關的介護人員來進行介護 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7788.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7793.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
因為他在介護的過程裡面他如果不清楚這個他介護的這個病患是什麼樣的人的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7806.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7806.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
好,那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7833.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7860.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
另外市長您先請回那根據這個《精神衛生法》第52條第一項的規定在這個精神照護機構對於病患擅自離開機構時應該要通知家屬及保護人那病患行蹤不明時應即刻通知地方主管機關的警察機構來協助協詢但是我們就是剛剛講的部分在通報方面似乎是延誤了4個小時才通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7861.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7890.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那這4個小時就足夠讓這個病患的行蹤難以追查那當時也造成這個基隆附近的這些縣市在學校方面都禁止這個訪客進入了嘛所以這個我想請教部長就是說在這個應急通知應該在多久的時間之內就要通知這第一個問題那第二個問題就是說收容機構和當地的警察機關之間通報的管道是否暢通 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7893.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7915.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這發現的話我們是要求是即時通知即時通知即時即時馬上就要通報了都要通報所以沒有時間的限制沒有時間的那個好 那個我們目前的這個管道有沒有暢通跟警察機關目前這是這個是管道是這個通知的話我們是第一時間就會通報那個警方那地檢署也會通 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7918.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7946.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
跟委員報告目前各家醫院都跟在地的這個警察局其實都有保持聯絡對所以就像剛剛部長講的這個應該當下病人不加離開就應該通知在地的警察單位以上可是這個部分我還是強調啦像基隆這個案子他雖然是委外契約的單位醫療機構我們還是要跟他們這個這個告知就是在通報上應該去適時的去檢討啦因為有時候他可能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7947.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7961.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
主管更換或是怎樣會不會導致說這個病患在脫逃的時候沒有第一時間去通報所以才會衍生這個延誤通報的問題這個部分也請我們這個相關單位應該要重視那再來就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7962.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7990.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這次的這個個案追捕當中有人提出這個監護處分人的部分他公布的照片和實際的這個長相有所差距恐怕會造成難以辨認那法務部這邊我們是不是可以來演你說在這個病患就醫的過程裡面每一個階段是不是有一個這個不定時的拍照的這個動作來存檔那以便不時之需有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7991.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8015.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這個是拍照這部分是有會涉及到我們各自就是肖像權的一個問題那這部分我們再來研議是不是可以設計一個可行性的方式因為這個法制上是不是可以有辦法去做到就像委員提到就是每一個時間就給他拍一張那個存檔起來那這部分我們再司法性我們再來研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8016.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8031.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好 那我想我們負責執行的那個先請回我們負責執行的這個檢察官平時業務已經都非常的繁重那部長您也是檢察官出身可能有相關的這個經驗可以分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8032.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8054.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那依據法務部的資料來看這個每年我們在監護處分執行的個案大概是200名那在保安處分執行法第48條裡面有規定檢察官對於受監護處分之人與指揮執行後至少每個月應該要去視察一次並製作紀錄那我想也是對於個案的這個情況能夠隨時掌握的必要措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8055.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8078.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
但譬如像這個上次的這個基隆案例來看北檢的這個檢察官執行送往這個基隆機構那現在又將這個病患最後送到現在是送到高雄的司法這個精神病院來執行若機構分布在各地會不會讓檢察官需要長途跋涉那在視察上要花費比較多的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8080.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8101.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這個問題我們會不會有什麼方式可以來解決或是用一些線上的這個遠距離的方式來處理可以嗎這部分我們再來研究不過我們到目前為止我們是要求就是檢討每月就是要去訪視一次那以後精神病房它是分布在北部南東那精神醫院這部分設置的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8102.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8102.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8127.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8145.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
在這個我們司法精神病院方面我想請教部長一下就是我們目前好像有在規劃未來有可能會建置北中南東都有的這個司法精神病房因為現在好像只有在南部有而已嘛已經在收治了對那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8146.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8167.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
比如說未來有可能在東部的哪一個地點有沒有可能這部分我們就不方便沒關係那可不可以讓我知道說我們設置這個司法精神病房的它的設置的這個要件要符合到什麼樣的條件才有可能在那個點來設置有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8169.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8196.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這個部分會後再給我一份資料看還是在我們私下再討論一下那我也期待說因為各區域的這個司法精神病院建置完成之後能夠妥善因應相關這個監護的需求來讓我們這個相關的病患有一個比較好而且比較方便的一個照顧的地方也能夠期待他們在這個照顧過程裡面他們身體的健康狀況也能夠慢慢的獲得一個一個照顧跟好轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8197.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8226.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這個部分也請我們法務部跟衛福部好好的去思考這個問題好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來我們請林思明委員進行詢問好 謝謝主席主席我先請衛福部的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8227.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8251.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
請衛福部代表是心理健康師的李秉長你記證是不是?是,謝謝委員所以我首先請教你衛福部強化社會安全網第二期計畫的重點包含了補強精神衛生社區體系與社區支援支持的服務還有設置社區心理衛生中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8252.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8255.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
目前依照這個第二期的計劃計劃執行的成效是如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8273.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8297.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
跟委員報告那大概剛剛委員講的這個71處的行為中心大概目前我們全國已經佈建了48處那應該到明年71處應該可以達成目標今年是要達到53處我們都超對目標來做那補助各縣市的這個關懷訪視人力那我們也都朝分年來補助禁用大概目前的禁用率以今年的這個補助人力來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8298.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8318.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們都要求地方政府禁用人力的目標數要達到補助人力的85%那有關於司法精神醫院跟病房的一個部件的進度就誠如法務部的書面報告一樣我們希望在明年二期計畫結束前能夠完成醫院300床跟病房180床的建置以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8319.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8338.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我想這個就應該行政院是在2020年就召開了跨部會的一個會議就是由台灣高檢署來編列34.6億元的預算規劃在全台設置6處各30床的司法精神病院有180床 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8340.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8347.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那另外成立一個達300床的司法精神病院目標是在明年總共要達到480床 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8351.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8374.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那目前整個預算的執行率是如何?就是我們總共那時候是編列的34.6億元你這個預算的執行的成效是怎樣?是逐年編列還是怎麼樣?還是一次就到位?跟委員報告我們就是分年來編列預算來執行因為每個醫院他有分期的進度病房也是分階段所以你現在講說規劃在全台設置6處180床那目前執行的幾床? |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8380.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8395.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
跟委員報告目前已經有南部地區55床已經開放全數在使用那預計今年會完成北區跟東區明年完成中部的那就可以達到原先設定目標180床的規模在明年就可以達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8396.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8419.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
另外那個是另外300床的精神病院這部分目前也如期在施作那我們也是朝明年完工啟用的目標明年絕對可以完工我們希望目前有缺工缺料問題我們在克服因為我們看到媒體有報導他說這個司法精神醫院原定是在今年3月要接木 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8420.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8424.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
有,跟委員報告目前已經都一一克服我們跟法務部還有在行政院的指導下已經一一克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8438.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8439.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
目前有提問的我們都一一克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8461.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8478.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
是,統一克服,如何克服可以請教一下嗎?會不會這種問題一直到時候你建好之後又有人來抗爭?因為據我的經驗,因為我新竹這邊也有一個就是你們精神病院的設置就是你剛才講的那個精神病床的設置,社區的這些精神醫療中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8480.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8506.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
結果那所有的住戶全部在反彈是是是造成很難設置啊是所以這個問題就是你現在預期要去見精神病床精神醫院的這一個問題有關於避零的問題有充分獲得溝通解決了嗎對我們都有跟跨部會跟中央地方政府的溝通我們都有在做是好好希望你們一定要要就是計畫的執行是一定要達到你原先預期的一個成果嗎當然當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8508.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8511.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
目前我們全國執行監護處分的總共有多少人?目前收治分配的情況是如何? |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8531.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8537.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這邊我有資料是那整個收治分配的一個情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8543.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8567.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
整個刑遣的是51人刑後的是173人有拘束人甚至有184人另外沒有拘束的就是比較輕微的這部分是有40人分布在各個地方另外有部分比較中高的這部分已經到藍區的去做收治了藍區的高雄的凱旋醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8571.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8591.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那,就我剛才我想跟衛福部的討教之後,我們大概知道說其實我們還整個不管是病床數啦,或者是精神醫院也都還沒有建設完成嘛,所以在病房數的這個數量還沒有達到它的量能的時候,我們要如何解決收支的這些收支的問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8593.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8620.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那目前的話因為是送一般的精神醫療機構嗎就是有些是我們簽約的這些的醫院那一定有病房病床才有因為每個都要有一個病床那現在是簽約的醫院在指定有精神科的這些醫療所以我們會送到那邊去對就還要簽約那有些是如果下去有的那我們再盡量再下去另外沒有下去就跨下去你是這樣子來收治嗎那我再請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8623.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8635.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
一般精神醫療機構的病房安全維護跟精神病院的病房安全維護設施有沒有什麼不同? |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8638.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8660.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這部分的安全當然我們這部分的安全維護設施的話我們去檢視因為確實是這些受監護人跟暫時安置人他是有一些的攻擊性的精神的有一些的狀況當然我們這部分有做一些的安全維護部長我會問你這問題就是說我們上次受監護處分人脫逃他就是從一般精神醫療機構來脫逃對所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8663.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8690.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們如果把就是說一般的精神醫療機構他的一個安全的維護啊要達到跟我們這個專業的收治的精神醫療機構他的安全會不會要一樣啊我們那個屬於剛才我有提到的就是我們規劃建置的這些司法精神醫院的人力像我們這些的安全維護能力我們幾乎是1比1啊幾乎是1比1所以變成30床我們是規劃是29人 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8693.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8712.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
一般的話我們就是得設沒有做一個強制的一個安全維護的但是他們醫院也就是另外要聘請這些保全的來處理所以我們其實法務部或者是我們的相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8715.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8722.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
執行機關並沒有去安排維護的人力去維護沒有強制的規定這個是強度不同部長我聽到我很訝異因為我想這部分不能等閒視之 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8732.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8733.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8761.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8767.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
接下來我們請范雲委員范雲委員范雲委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8791.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8813.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員好,那我們請林思美委員先暫時代理主席那我可以先做提案說明嗎?因為快11點了,我就做提案說明我先請,好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8823.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8842.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
好 我們現在處理臨時提案一案 請宣讀臨時提案一 修正本略以要求法務部於三個月內提供一百一十一年至一百一十二年間之監護處分執行報告 內容須並含一遭宣告監護處分者之疾病類型、性別、年齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8843.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8871.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
遭監護宣告之人所犯罪名是否為同樣罪名再犯之情形及監護處分宣告執行方法、細緻住院治療、門診治療、親屬監護或其他適當之處域等方式進行分析。二、轉嫌機制之具體作為,包括轉嫌評估標準、轉嫌單位後續追蹤情形及預防再犯之措施以充分了解說法後,近年監護處分執行現況、提案人委員吳宗憲等宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8873.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8898.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
現在請吳宗憲委員做提案說明有關這個部分主要也是因為我們討論到精神疾病患者犯法之後的一些管理及處遇方面的問題尤其是之前有精神疾病患者他逃脫之後造成社會上面的恐慌所以這一塊我覺得我們要開始回過頭去注意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8899.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8922.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這段時間法務部在強化社會安全網第二期計畫裡面到底做了哪些事情以及與衛福部之間的合作狀況這部分我們希望說法務部能夠在三個月內提供111年到112年的監護處分執行報告那內容我們希望能夠包括到 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8924.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8943.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
監護處分者的疾病類型、性別、年齡還有遭監護宣告之人的犯罪的罪名是哪些有沒有再犯的問題還有一些有關於監護處分宣告的執行方法住院治療、門診治療或者是親屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8946.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8961.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
親屬監護或其他適當處理方式進行分析提供轉嫌機制的具體作為包括評估標準、轉嫌單位、後續追蹤情況以及預防再犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8962.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8990.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我們希望說法務部提供給我們這些資料不要說讓前幾天發生的那個讓5月10幾號的時候發生的那個讓全台灣民眾都非常恐慌的事情再發生我想說這個是法務部一定要做到的責任這部分所以我提了這個臨時提案請法務部能夠提供我們相關的資料好 謝謝吳宗憲委員那我們法務部對這個提案有沒有什麼意見做補充報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8992.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9014.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
謝謝委員 我們就同意修正後的一個版本 謝謝好 謝謝好 我們臨時提案第一案我們照修正後的版本照案通過接下來請吳宗憲委員發言好 謝謝主席那我們請法務部長還有警政署的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9023.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9048.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
委員好兩位早安我想我今天本來是準備要就強化社會安全網第二期的部分有一些東西要跟各位就教那因為剛剛我聽了審發會委員還有縣委員所提到的有關手機的那個部分我想說我這邊也要提出一些想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9049.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9064.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
其實在上一屆的時候李桂民委員就曾經問過法務部長蔡清當時的部長蔡清想就是有關這種社會的大型運動或者是政治活動會不會遭到監控那當時的蔡部長非常的明確告訴我們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9065.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9066.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
當時的部長說得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9082.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9099.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
所以說我們也是信任部長說的那部長也說這個手機招監控因為是涉及一定是涉及犯罪嫌疑負責的懲辦的檢察官認為有辦案的需求才會加以鎖定如果沒有涉及到犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9099.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9126.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我手機就不會被定位結果這個剛剛兩位立委跟部長就請教的王逸川這個人在節目上面表示說總統選舉造勢到近期兩次的集會遊行都證明有人給民進黨中央有關手機使用者的資訊那這個是王逸川在公開的節目中所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9127.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9140.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我想請教的是部長這個蔡前部長說謊還是有哪一個單位在進行這樣的資料跟收集跟分析啊謝謝委員那我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9143.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9160.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這個我並不清楚他那個是有什麼單位做資料的數據的分析但是我也尊重蔡部長的一個講法好 謝謝部長那這樣等於是沒有回答那我再請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9162.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9186.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
對於手機定位這個東西我在這邊就直接我們來談一下手機定位這個個資法上面的概念我想法務部在政府以資訊國安為由採用電子監控系統並追蹤手機是否侵犯自由人權與侵害隱私應如何確立合理明確的法律界限的專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9188.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9189.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
中．法務部說參酌國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9193.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9219.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
在107年11月7日發法字第107-200-2039號函以及同年月21日發法字第107-200-2136號函的解釋似乎手機號碼及定位資訊是屬於個人資料而有個人資料保護法的適用這是當初法務部在專題報告中所說的再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9221.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9245.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
在大數據運用及隱私保護手機定位資料與防疫應用之法律問題延期由先前的行政院資通安全處處長兼紅偉他所撰寫的文章也曾經下過一個結論就是手機定位資訊是個人的資料保護保護法第二條第一款規定的個人資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9246.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9262.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以我想請教部長一個問題手機定位是不是屬於各執法的保護範圍內手機定位這個是個人資料的確是各執法的一個問題好 謝謝我想說這跟之前法務部的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9263.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9264.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
王一川使用的資料是哪裡來的? |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9278.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9300.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這是我覺得很奇怪的一個點啦既然定位資料是屬於各自保障的範圍那這個資料到底是哪裡來的當然這段時間有人扯說新北市府在辦歡樂夜爛城曾經做了什麼那個是人流的管制跟這個是完全不一樣因為他講的內容包括到年齡以及不同場次的交叉分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9302.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9311.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這個你我都很清楚嘛 這個都騙不了人嘛 除非是不想動腦子去思考的人 就才會不知道這兩個差距在哪裡一個是人流的控管 一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9312.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9332.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
已經具識別化出前初步識別化的年齡以及不同場次的分析所以這樣的作為部長覺得這沒有違法嗎因為這個是法官保留的部分吧你要對於各自的保障的例外應該是屬於法官保留吧這怎麼會拿到這個資料呢部長認為這個合法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9336.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9357.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
各執法的話它可不可以合理的使用那個各執法有做一個規定它第一條就有規定那個合理使用沒有問題兼顧使用而且這個應該不是這個各執法有要使用應該是要按照各執法的這些的規定來這跟通報法不一樣通報是要法官保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9358.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9386.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那各自法的使用這是一個有它的另外的規範它那個保護的跟通保法因為通保法24條那一部分必須要監聽它那個內容的問題好沒問題好那不然這部分我再做補充一下因為我剛剛可能說太快沒有說因為這部分我個人認為是一部分是跟各自有關但另外一部分是手機通訊的使用這會涉及到通保法這部分會涉及到法官保留的部分我剛剛可能講比較快好那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9387.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9409.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
如果我們讓非官方而且非犯罪偵查非國安調查的情況下的一般個人就可以取得這些手機定位的資料甚至一些通訊方面的資料通保法規範的範圍或各自法規範的範圍其實我覺得這個我到現在想還是覺得似乎有點不太對勁那在這邊是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9412.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9438.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我覺得這個部分是不是我在這邊可以對他進行告發然後可能麻煩那個這應該是北檢吧北檢或者是市檢市檢能夠進行調查這塊我想說因為其實我說真的告他不是說找誰麻煩啦也許我們是幫他釐清他是合法的給國人一個交代不要讓大家開始在 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9439.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9467.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
人心惶惶說原來我這些資料我以為是秘密的我個資的部分卻可以被人拿去使用在政論節目我覺得這有點恐怖啦尤其是可以做不同場次的分析我是不是曾經參加過太陽花學院我是不是曾經參加過哪一次政治集會就可以做這樣交叉分析我想今天不管是哪一個黨都不太能忍受這樣的狀況發生所以我想我在這邊就具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9469.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9487.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我會具體告發不管告發的結果怎麼樣我覺得我都尊重檢方的認定也許檢方是還王逸川一個清白這樣也很好因為這樣讓國人知道沒有問題這個資料取得可能是或者是王逸川自己胡說八道這也有可能所以我這邊我想我會做這樣的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9487.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9499.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
因為我總是覺得我國是五權憲法的國家世界上國家幾乎都是三權我們本來比人家多了兩權就現在不能把五權憲法完全是一權一權專制國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9502.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9531.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
因為本來我們是行政立法司法考試監察的五權就現在被搞得只剩下行政權而已變成執政黨所有的行政權大家都配合行政權在玩那我們變一權國家突然從世界上區分最多的五權憲法體制變成是一權體制這其實還蠻莫名其妙的尤其因為我這段時間我從選前看到的飛彈的假簡訊到反滲透法用了一堆的那個檢調的資源警察的資源下去查這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9532.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9548.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
李長什麼赴中國旅遊一直到其實我看了一次比一次痛心啦怎麼國家會被完成這樣因為我以前以為的行政總理我以前以為的國家憲法制度下的獨立機關或者是法律獨立下的獨立機關現在感覺都沒有那麼的獨立 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9549.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9550.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我的想法是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9569.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9592.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好那最後我就回歸到今天的議題因為時間的關係我想說因為我有提那個臨時提案有請各位能夠先給我一些數據所以今天就問題的部分我可能我就不多我想我就不多說啦那不過我還是想要請教一下因為剛剛那個陳俊偉有提到說對於監護處分作業流程這個部分對於這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9596.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9597.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個我再來瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9625.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9652.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這個是由地檢署去處理的那這個部長再麻煩你了解一下那你幫我了解一下說本件第一個當然每個月至少要視察一次就是先幫我了解一下有沒有真的有去做到視察就像以前我在地檢署的時候我們要視察監獄我們都一定會有那個機率而且我們會填寫那個報告表那我想請部長幫我們了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9653.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9681.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
到底有沒有去做到每個月至少視察一次再來他的評估的狀況還有一個就是精進的狀況怎麼樣那下一次有機會我可能就會跟部長請教到這個監護處分的一些維安預算的運用因為本來是準備在今天要跟大家請教但是我剛好沿著前面那個話題下來我想那個是剛發生的也是國人現在開始會擔心的一件事那我覺得這幾天可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9682.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9707.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
因為這事情我昨天我都在立法院忙我並沒有注意到新聞但是今天早上我看到很多新聞跳出來有人在談這個事情那這種事情我的手機會被定位這是會造成人的恐慌了就像之前有法院認為GPS不能隨便裝因為你GPS隨便裝他認為這是侵害我的隱私權嘛所以當時有海巡署的同仁因為辦案者而被判刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9708.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9731.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以我們現在開始推動要把科技偵查要去立法這國家是朝向一個非常好的方向去走沒有錯但是從GPS都不能裝的這個角度去思考如果GPS不能裝裝的是侵害隱私權結果我的手機被定位卻是可以那你告訴我說我已經去識別化了但是你去識別化的程度到什麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9732.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9755.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
如果還可以做不同場域的交叉分析我其實擔心這個是真的有達到去識別化嗎這個是我很擔心的一個點不能因為我曾經參加過拿機場的政治活動然後我就要被政府瞭解我的政治傾向是什麼這是集權國家在做不是民主國家在做的這部分我想部長您應該不會否定我的想法吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9757.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9768.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個我們會來了解好 那謝謝部長那下一次我就再跟部長請教這個有關預算的使用還有這個監護處分的目的有沒有達成好 謝謝部長好 謝謝吳宗憲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9787.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9801.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好 謝謝各位那接下來我們請吳思瑤委員去導謝謝主席有請部長那也請秘書長一起好嗎請部長秘書長上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9806.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9821.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我想先就教依循著剛剛今天大家都比較hard issue在follow的問題這個王逸川今天成了我們司法法制委員會或是其他委員會共同討論的焦點人物我想問一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9822.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9841.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
現在坊間常常在使用這個手機來精算也是大數據的演算能夠用大數據的方式那用在商業上然後可以針對不同的活動的人流商業來進行分析這是現在已經慣常在使用的一個big data 您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9843.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9866.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這個我沒有那麼清楚你們要了解那因為當然我認為王逸川在節目上所說的事情資訊從哪裡來我無從得知那我個人也認為他的發言可能也有需要再斟酌的地方但是我想請問如果手機的定位的內容是去識別化的 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9867.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9878.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
去識別化再來進行各種的分析商業使用或是其他學術研討使用研究使用的話那去識別化有涉及各資嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9880.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9897.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
個人資料當然一定是自然人嘛自然人的一個那手機當然是屬於個人資料的一個範圍啦那去四倍化我想這個應該是是不是可以屬於那個個資法的一個合理使用的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9900.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9907.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
你們好好要再精確一點否則在其他的詢答的過程不夠嚴謹就被簡稱抖音就被去以訛傳訛法務部長就認為這樣是涉及各自 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9916.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9939.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
剛剛就在今天的內政委員會內政部部長劉世芳他的詢答他說現在在臺北縣市的警局或是內政部也有一些人口護證在使用的相關資料只要是去識別化並沒有侵害個人資料保護的問題這是內政部部長劉世芳所說的我再給您一次機會那個的確是各自法他是有保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9940.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9940.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9961.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9976.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我們可以讓真理越辯越明當然王逸川他也多次的清楚澄清跟說明並非由單一政黨有這個能力而且去進行了使用這個系統來針對現在大家無限擴大的這個言論我想當事人他已經做出清楚的這個澄清跟說明那剛剛我們的吳宗憲教委說他個人要去告發王逸川我也尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9989.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10000.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
但是如果要告發的話可以一併連侯友宜也一起告發一併連盧秀燕也可以一起告發因為這些地方政府也都使用這個Big Data去從事相關的必要的合理的使用這是我的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10006.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10028.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
第二個呢我也看到在野黨的這個黃國昌委員今天在昨天國會立法院職權行使法國會擴選的法案剛通過還不到10小時這個法律還沒有正式被頒布、被總統公布居然黃國昌也說要針對王逸川就鎖定成為第一個要叫來國會問話、問訊的人我想這就是先射箭再劃靶嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10035.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10049.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這就是一個政治的意圖在前頭嘛所謂的國會的聽證權、調查權這種包括副官級總召昨天說的一完成立法他就喜滋滋的、得意洋洋的對媒體說我們要成立在野的國會特徵組 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10054.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10081.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
天啊 整肅一擊的時代又來了這個法律剛通過還不到幾小時我也可以在這裡大膽的預測啊王逸川是第一個會被調來國會問訊的人下一個可能是李政浩第三個可能是于北辰接下來黃世聰以及劉寶潔五位可能都有機會您知道我為什麼點名這五位嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10082.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10091.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
因為這五位啊電視上常常在評論中國時事跟經濟的名嘴啊或是政治評論家就在中國5月15號國台辦已經公佈的懲戒名單裡頭所以呢這樣的修法這樣的一個裡應外合 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10101.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10129.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
國會特徵組國會擴權讓立法院可以成為一權分立一權獨大剛剛我們召委說我們成了一權國家其實這個一權國家獨大的是立法院昨天通過的這些國會擴權的惡法就會形成台灣只剩下一個立法權他可以凌駕行政權他可以凌駕監察權可以凌駕司法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10132.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10152.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以呢我要再次說請大家要自制啊一個法律剛上路都對不起它還沒有上路連三讀的文字哩哩啦啦還有一堆文字的缺漏扯出來的包都還不知道怎麼來收拾居然就說要鎖定王逸川就要叫來成為國會第一個被問話 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10154.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10164.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
被問訊的人這就是在野黨遂行了政治肅殺的政治目的不是嗎不演了完全不演了 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10166.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10195.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
所以呢我是覺得很遺憾我請司法院秘書長在這裡因為這個法律通過二三讀之後監察院很快的就公布了一個新聞的聲明監察院認為立法院的擴權嚴重的傷害了監察權那違反了憲法的院紀之間憲法機關之間的權力分立的原則那其實同樣的我們在座的兩位在台上的兩位司法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10195.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10214.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
也是被剝奪了一部分國會、立委都急切地想要成為法官跟檢察官那檢察院有這樣子的一個statement我要在這裡我不為難秘書長啦我本來想說那秘書長也應當有司法院的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10215.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10241.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
說法才對但我想您在這裡講的每一句話可能都會被無限擴大畢竟未來也是釋憲的憲法法庭也是需要更公正超然的客觀的一個立場但是我要再次跟藉由我質詢的時間跟國融同胞來分享我的觀點也就是說先上車後補票先開刀再麻醉就是現在的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10243.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10253.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
再也黨先修法讓自己國會擴了權取代了監察權取代了司法權然後呢再來說我們下一步來廢考監來修憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10256.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10268.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這民進黨早就在這一個場域司法法制委員會我已經講了N次我講了N次如果要修憲就修憲不能夠用修法來凌駕修憲在野黨現在是先修法讓國會擴權然後回過來說我們現在來推動廢監察院的修憲案 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10282.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10303.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這就是先上車再後補再補票啊這就是醫生要開刀先給你開了刀再來麻醉啊秘書長我的說法正確嗎就憲政分立的原則有先擴大了立法的權限然後再來說我要來廢掉監察院嗎這是監察院昨天的聲明裡頭清楚的闡述的立場秘書第5 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10308.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10333.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那這個問題 林董簡單可以回答吧該修憲是不是就修憲 絕對不能先修法之後再回頭來去修憲 先上車後補票 很簡單的問題藐視國會罪還沒有總統公告 你不用害怕 就回答 據實以答沒有關係因為多元的社會 我們尊重委員的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10334.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10345.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
所以尊重立法委員胡說八道尊重立法委員胡亂修法這就是藐視國會最嚴重的地方翁小林委員說的上對下的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10347.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10372.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我要跟大家說他應驗了汪小玲說的上對下的關係在這一次的國會擴權的修法完全應驗了因為民選總統可以被叫來立法院即問即答國情報告改為常態化這就是太上立院上對下對民選總統擁有最高民意基礎的總統立法院可以這樣對待他 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10374.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10383.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
第2個上對下就是利用藐視國會罪這樣子的荒誕制度的設計讓你們行政官員每一個人都噤聲每一個人成為乖乖牌每一個人不敢言所當言、為所當為然後真的成為質詢就是上對下因為有藐視國會罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10396.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10412.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
第三個上對下就是最殘暴的一個太上國會可以把人民動輒的叫來立法院要你提供資料就提供資料要你來問話就問話把人民的人權踩在腳底這就是上對下 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10413.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10432.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
翁曉琳說的都靈驗了都應驗了剛剛吳宗憲、張偉說如果王逸川說的手機定位是侵害個人資料保護法那麼昨天剛修過的國會擴權的法案可以要求人民繳出一切你要的資料你要來這裡應訊問話連找律師都要主席同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10440.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10457.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
個人資料保護法欸吳宗憲你敢說啊你們這種違憲、亂證的修法有把個人資料保護法有把人權放在眼裡嗎如果你們對於王逸川的言論如此認為不可我當然也認為王逸川的講話不夠精準 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10463.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10483.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
但是如果要用同樣的標準一個去識別化的資料都要被你們無限上綱稱為侵害人權違反個資那麼即將上路的國會擴權法案把人民叫來立法院必須提供一切的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10485.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10498.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這沒有侵害人權嗎?實在很抱歉我今天的主題其實準備很多那只好下一次再針對我們的司法精神醫療體系就教於兩位但是我們站在這裡這個現正時刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10501.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10515.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們都要非常嚴肅的去面對我也認為不要因為有了藐視國會罪大家不敢講話這是反民主你們有你們的法學專業絕對在我吳斯堯百倍千倍以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10516.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10542.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
但是針對基本該有的憲政精神的捍衛對於我們司法獨立的捍衛對於人權的捍衛我們都要繼續言所當言為所當為否則一個不敢講話的國會殿堂這是什麼民主只有立委可以在這裡無地放矢官員不能表述 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10544.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10559.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我認為這是民主倒退的一刻我在這裡還是期勉大家藐視國會罪民主進步黨會提出釋憲案我們也很有把握希望憲法法庭可以做出一個合憲的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10560.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10561.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝吳司堯委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10589.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10591.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我還是很中立的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10598.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10606.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
希望說我們是藉由這個方式來讓民眾適宜因為我認為說在不同場域的分析比較跟人流 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10615.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10630.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
的控管其實這個在層次上面在個資上面是有不同層次所以我從頭到尾也沒有說希望用國會有關的將來的調查權或什麼聽證權方面我都沒有提這個我反而是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10631.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10646.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
持平的希望說因為既然已經造成了社會上面的懷疑那就有一個公正的第三方的檢方去調查而且我剛剛也說了我也是希望說我們查出來原來是一個誤會這是對的那反而是讓國人適宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10649.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10675.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我覺得我的立場說得很清楚那我也不想要把這個事情變成是一個政治的攻擊因為今天如果就像我剛剛提到的GPS光是裝GPS就那個海巡署的人員就被法院判刑那GPS他就是知道你的定位那如果國家或者是這些電信公司可以透過手機的定位把我的一些相關的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10677.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10690.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
賣給第三方或者是透露給第三方而沒有法律依據的時候我覺得我今天是要了解這個事而且我是希望由公正的第三方檢方出來調查而不是由我們自己去調查去 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10692.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10707.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
主觀的說我認為怎麼樣我想說我還是很持平的在看待每一件事情當然我也非常的期望說檢方調查之後發現其實沒有問題這個王先生他的每一個作為都是合法的那讓我們國人都能夠安心能夠心裡會得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10709.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10710.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10739.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10740.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10768.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10789.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這個跟各市政府、各縣市政府在處理公共活動的時候的人流控管在程度上有非常大的不同我剛剛已經說了不同場域的分析其實我覺得這是有一點問題所以這部分我想說我才會提出剛剛那個想法那當然我也是祝福說王先生在檢方瞭解之後發現其實是沒有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10790.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10793.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
今天所有發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束委員質詢時,要求提供的相關資料以及書面答覆,請相關資料請速送交個別委員跟本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10817.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10831.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
委員翁曉琳所提的書面質詢列入記錄勘登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議就到這邊結束大家辛苦了謝謝各位今天來到這裡現在散會謝謝大家 |