| IVOD_ID |
15962 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15962 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
22 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-29T08:31:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-29T12:37:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:05:43 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2da75a1f35c7302ecd69e13353c436ea853be8d109af184be4bff36cfa4b1a32275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:17 - 12:37:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1789.312 |
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1791.937 |
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報告委員會：初期委員9人已足法定人數。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1802.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1824.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國113年5月16日星期四上午9時1分至11時23分地點黃樓山林一會議室出席委員盧美玲等11人、列席委員嚴匡衡等13人、列席人員、球務委員會副委員長呂元榮、外交部常務次長陳立國、 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1826.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1849.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
國家安全局副局長柯承亨．主席馬昭吉委員文君．報告是向一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定。二、邀請僑務委員會外交部國家安全局報告中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為．並備質詢。僑務委員會副委員長李元榮．外交部常務次長陳立國及國家安全局副局長柯承亨報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1850.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1877.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
委員盧美玲等11人質詢,均由朝務委員會副委員長李元榮、外交部常務次長陳立國、國家安全局副局長柯承亨及第五處馬副處長等即席答覆。決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢,報告及詢答結束。二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊,請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會。委員另指定期限者從其所定。三委員林毅君 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1878.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1880.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1894.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1910.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
沒有,那我們議事錄確定,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響．並備質詢。宣讀完畢謝謝,那我們現在介紹在場的委員首先介紹陳永康委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1926.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1941.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
黃仁委員、洪森翰委員接下來我們介紹今天與會的官員首先介紹國家安全局蔡明彥蔡局長政務次長田中光田次長外交部不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1952.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1956.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
田次長、亞東太平洋司藍夏里蘭司長、亞西及非洲司賀忠義賀司長、歐洲司黃軍耀黃司長、北美司王良玉王司長、拉美及加勒比海司鄭麗成鄭司長、條約法律司連建成連司長、 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1982.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2001.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
國際組織司李冠德副司長國際合作及經濟事務司連玉平連司長國際傳播司徐永梅徐司長研究設計會張雅光主任李斌處李志強處長秘書處洪振榮處長人事處黃麗玲處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2010.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2015.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
政風處周志信處長主計處李佩華處長資訊及電務處林啟文處長公眾外交協調會劉永健執行長非政府組織國際事務會陳剛毅執行長領事事務局何振環何局長臺灣日本關係協會范振國秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2041.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2051.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
財團法人國際合作發展基金會李志宏副秘書長財團法人臺灣民主基金會代理執行長廖達祺廖執行長大陸委員會梁文傑副主任委員綜合規劃處魯仲尼魯處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2067.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2090.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們在這裡另外做一個宣告本日會議進行到11點30左右的時候由美國聯邦眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾率領包括六位眾議員的訪團特別指定要到外交及國防委員會會議室來拜會我們會是通報抵達的時間在最靠近 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2091.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2095.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
在最靠近的委員質詢過後．我們就進行休息等待外賓抵達為了不影響會議的進行．訪團來到以後只做短暫的交流主要是與委員們合影留念希望能夠參與的委員盡量提前來到會議室 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2111.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2126.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
本日會議邀請國安局、外交部以及陸委會報告第十六屆總統就職以後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響．並備質詢首先請國安局蔡局長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2140.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2156.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生大家好。非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響的專題報告。以下請就重點報告如此。第一大部分是有關於國際跟兩岸情勢的特點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2157.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2169.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
首先在國際方面第一點美中平民的互動但是沒有改變彼此競爭的態勢那我們知道在今年的四月拜習通話之後雙方重申要維持對話跟交流的重要性那特別美中兩國也開始針對財經軍事 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2172.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2172.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2202.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2231.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第二部分是有關於印太國家對於跟中國的關係主要維持的是交往跟警戒兩種的一個策略在交往的方面我們可以看到日本、韓國跟中國的峰會在日前與首爾來舉行那三方來推進彼此的經貿合作關係那另外在東南亞還有在南亞的國家各國的政府官員也跟中共展開相關的互訪主要的目的是在拓展跟中共的經貿合作的關係在警戒的方面我們可以注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2231.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2257.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
日本、韓國、澳洲、菲律賓開始參加美國印太小多邊的安全機制展開聯合軍演、國防產業的合作共同來應處中共的威脅另外菲律賓也頻頻地向國際社會來指控中共在南海的擴張行為那印度也把中共視為是主要的競爭對手防範中共在南亞地區的擴張行為在兩岸關係的方面國際社會普遍肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2258.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2279.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
五二零的就職演說：國際社會苦片認同賴總統五二零就職演說展現民主的韌性跟活力也期盼跟我國來深化雙邊的合作關係致力來維持臺海的和平跟穩定同時也鼓勵兩岸可以來進行對話以和平的方式來解決歧見另外中共也藉由聯合力艦的軍演來對我進行武嚇 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2279.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2308.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
在5月23到24日的期間共軍舉行了聯合歷艦2024A軍事演習演習的區域涵蓋了臺灣本外島的周邊海空域而且是第一次把海警的編隊納入到演習的過程執行聯合戰備的警訊奪取臺灣海峽的控制權以及發布攻台模擬的動畫影片主要目的就在推升對我文攻捕獲的效應相關的發展反映中共一方面聲稱交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2312.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2331.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這次的演習兵力的動員雖然沒有超過以往但是我們可以看到演習過程當中中共發布了有九個的演習區並且在我周邊的海空域來進行相關的演訓活動那也第一次在演習過程當中動員海警的編隊在周邊的水域演練執法巡查的動作主要的目的就在形塑台海的內海化假象 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2333.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2349.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
針對未來的一個可能共軍在台海周邊的活動我們預判可能會持續的對我國來進行複合式的脅迫目的在逐漸的改變台海的現狀。第三中共會持續的操作壓拉兩省的一個策略在經貿部分中共出向我國 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2350.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2373.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
實話的產品課徵反傾銷還有啟動反傾銷的調查以外那另外也宣布要恢復我國文旦幼等農漁產品輸入那但是我們不能排除在520之後中共可能會再度的以檢疫的問題為藉口干擾我國農漁產品輸入來持續的對我們施加經濟脅迫的力度在外交的方面中共在我們的大選之後就策動 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2373.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2375.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
在基層的交流方面中共持續邀訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2397.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2419.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我國的工商團體、村里長、地方民代、宗教人士到對岸來進行交流﹐對我各領域來進行各種拉攏跟分化的動作。接下來我們進行第二大項﹐是有關於相關的發展﹐對我國國安的可能影響。第一,國際加強關注臺海的和平穩定的相關議題。近年來中共持續對外擴張勢力﹐升高了國際社會對中共軍事威脅、經濟脅迫 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2423.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2445.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
科技竊取、輿論滲透等等作為的警覺也正是中共對台灣脅迫的動作因此我們可以看到美國、歐洲跟日本等民主國家也展現了高度的挺台的力道第二部分是有關於共軍在台海的軍事演習恐怕會趨於越來越常態化那我們可以看到中共的部隊持續的來變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2446.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2471.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
對我本外島軍事還有灰色地帶侵擾的一個樣態．那隨著在6月份之後．持續進入到共軍年度演習的熱忌．中共可能會結合到年度性的計畫性的演訓活動．藉口國際挺台．片面聲稱我國跨越紅線等等的理由．來結合到法律戰跟認知戰．持續的對我國來實施複合式的威脅．以便來達到建立台海新建動的一個企圖． |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2472.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2499.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那第三是中共會加大對台的統戰分化的一個力度那面對台灣的新政局中共會持續的對台灣來施展組合權也就是一方面會藉由政經的施壓挑起我們的官民矛盾同時利用差別待遇來分化各政黨的立場以及來散布各種的錯假訊息打擊我國的軍心士氣離間台美的關係甚至恫嚇我國的媒體、議員要進行自我審查的涉入言論營造寒蟬效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2500.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2519.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
另一方面,也會利用到兩岸的大交流來擴大宣誡兩岸民族文化同源,結合到中國大陸市場發展的誘因,鼓勵台灣的青年到對岸來發展,以便來增加對於中國大陸的認同。中共對台的軍演,升高了國際社會對中共威脅區域核穩的一個關切。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2519.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2542.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那在這樣的環境之下是有利於我國跟理念相近國家來推動安全的協作跟情報的分享那本局會持續的統合國安單位加強掌收中共安全威脅的預警情資持續的來將國際警示中共透遊複合式手段蠶食迫害台海現狀也會實質的來揭露中共分化我內部團結的相關的一個策略跟作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2542.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2560.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
以便來協助政府可以有效來整合國內外的資源應處中共對我國多重威脅的攻勢以上報告進行大院委員先進不定指導謝謝接下來請外交部田政務次長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2569.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2589.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安首先感謝貴委員會邀請外交部就第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響進行報告書面報告請參閱,僅報告其中重點如下,敬請指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2590.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2617.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我國國家安全數十年來一直受到中國的威脅和國際情勢變化的影響特別是這幾年來中國由於國力的崛起對外擴張以及享用實現所謂的中國夢因此對於我國的軍事威脅外交打壓和經濟脅迫的力道越來越大加上國際局勢變動劇烈因此臺灣的國家安全必然受到連帶的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2619.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2646.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
面臨的挑戰和變數也越來越多由於國際情勢變化很多國家對於中國的擴張懷疑有戒心另一方面也是在國人和政府的共同努力之下今天是國際社會對台灣最重視也是最友好的歷史時刻與此同時維持了台海和印太的和平穩定也成了國際社會的高度共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2648.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2675.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
因此國際和兩岸的情勢的可能發展對我國安的影響可說是充滿了挑戰同時也帶來了契機我們會克服挑戰掌握契機全力捍衛國家的主權安全和利益以及確保我們的自由民主生活方式國際情勢發展其實很難匿料研判近期可能的發展如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2675.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2690.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
第一,俄烏戰爭以哈衝突,南海爭端,朝鮮半島緊張局勢仍在持續升溫,全球地緣政治動盪持續而且風險升高,更存在許多變數。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2691.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2707.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第二,當前民主對抗威權的國際格局已然成形,壁壘分明,而且難以逆轉。臺灣位於對抗威權主義的第一線,將持續立守全球民主的最前線。第三, |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2708.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2722.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
中俄兩國河流不僅已對全球民主構成了重大威脅也企圖挑戰以規則為基礎的國際秩序並合力對抗以美國為首的民主陣營第四 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2723.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2753.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
今年是全球的選舉年70多國已經或將舉行大選人口超過全球一半以上其中11月美國大選對於全球的政經更是具有關鍵性的影響第五全球經貿情勢進行也會因為美中兩國將持續的角力美國等國家的大選、全球貿易戰、地緣政治風險等因素更具不確定性 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2754.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2776.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
中國上週二、三日在臺灣周圍進行為期兩天的軍演升高了區域的緊張無視國際社會對於維持臺海以及印太區域和平穩定的高度共識北京當局的單邊軍事挑釁行徑威脅臺灣民主、自由和區域和平穩定的情況令人遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2777.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2796.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們再次感謝這幾天來許多國家或者國際的友人,紛紛表達對台海情勢的關切,反對任何以武力或脅迫改變現狀的單邊行動,包括拜登總統25日在公開演講說,再次重申堅定維護台海和平與穩定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2799.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2822.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
由於國際局勢及兩岸情勢目前並沒有明顯的和緩跡象對我的國安帶來了許多挑戰與變數可能的影響包括第一在安全方面中國將繼續對台灣文攻武嚇採取灰色地帶行動企圖打造所謂新常態對我施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2823.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2851.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
但另一方面國際社會也將持續高度關注台海的情勢第二在外交方面嚴判中國將加大對我外交打壓尤其在國際上將鞏固其所謂的一個中國格局扭曲聯大第2758號決議加強連結一中原則甚至不排除再次不計成本的又拉我有幫轉向 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2853.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2859.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
第三,在經貿方面,不排除中國會變本加厲．對我施以經濟脅迫．阻擾我國和其他國家簽署雙邊經貿協議．以及加入CPTPP等區域經濟整合機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2869.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2890.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
面對這些外部的挑戰外交部全體同仁將在過去八年踏實外交的良好基礎上全力推動價值外交以民主、和平與繁榮來深化臺灣的國際連結鞏固邦交並且不斷地深化與理念相近的國家實質關係和合作讓臺灣繼續走向世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2896.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2909.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
此外,我們也會加強結合國內外各方面的資源和力量,並進行跨部會的合作,降低兩岸和國際情勢發展對我們的負面影響甚至衝擊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2911.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2929.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
國際情勢瞬息萬變,臺灣的地緣戰略角色獲得國際的重視,面對中國不斷透過統戰、分化、滲透破壞、灰色地帶等手段對臺灣施壓的挑戰,外交部將全力以赴,即先應處各項挑戰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2931.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2951.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
最後再次感謝貴委員會和各位委員對於外交部的支持與鼓勵也請各位委員繼續指導和協助以上報告謝謝接下來我們請陸委會梁副主委上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2967.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2979.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、陳孟貴委員會邀請就第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響進行報告,以下請提出本會說明,進行指教。 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2981.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3007.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
賴總統於5月20日正式就職中華民國第16任總統就職演說強調打造民主、和平、繁榮的新台灣。每日等多國表達祝賀。美國國務卿布林肯20日發表聲明表示期待與賴總統及台灣各界共同努力維護台海和平與穩定。美國總統拜登於西點軍校演說表示將捍衛台海和平與穩定,以武力保護盟友。 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3009.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3030.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
日本內閣官房長官林芳正也強調,臺海和平穩定對日本及國際社會相當重要,將直接向中方傳達此一立場。歐盟外交事務高級代表波瑞爾市警,北京軍演活動加劇臺海緊張局勢。聯合國秘書長古特雷斯呼籲中共誤採取可能加劇臺海緊張局勢的作為,並將密切關注臺海事態發展。 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3035.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3059.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
中共高調批評賴總統就職演說,重申其一中反獨促同的立場,發動媒體及涉台學者展開輿論、文宣攻勢並強迫在陸發展之臺灣藝人表態,另外還在國際動員哈薩克、烏茲別克、吉爾吉斯、委內瑞拉、塞爾維亞、伊朗等親中國家操作聯大第二七五八號決議文與一中原則國際化。 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3061.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3083.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
在軍事施壓方面共軍東部戰區5月23、24兩天在我本島及離島周邊海空域進行軍事演訓福建海警船並多次侵入我離島禁縣制水域中共企圖藉著對台文攻武嚇展現其掌握兩岸關係主導權、主動權並測試我新政府應對能力同時觀察國際對台各種脅迫作為的反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3088.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3104.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
中共近年堅持中國特色社會主義的意識形態對外採取強勢的作為升高台海、南海、東海等區域衝突風險是當前區域情勢不穩定的主要根源根據本會近期民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3105.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3134.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
超過九成的臺灣民眾不認同中共軍機繼續在我周邊活動北京當局應該充分認知威嚇無法爭取臺灣民心只會造成兩岸對立升高及區域情勢動盪政府將繼續遵循賴總統就職演說的精神秉持四個堅持不卑不亢維持現狀以自信穩健負責任團結的態度推動兩岸事務並致力維持臺海及區域和平穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3135.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3148.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
未來政府將密切觀察臺海情勢變化、審慎應處並依據中華民國憲政體制與相關法規推動對等尊嚴、健康有序的兩岸交流以上報告,敬請指教。謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3155.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3174.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好,我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員6分鐘10點30分發言登記截止我們如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右試詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3182.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3184.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
有請國安局蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3192.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3212.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
主席羅文早局長早局長在上個禮拜賴清德總統上任的三天之後中國就實施了對台灣的這個還台的這個軍演那這次的軍演是首次覆蓋了金馬等這個外圍那我們要值得注意的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3212.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3215.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這次的軍演是繼2022年培洛西議長來台之後中國對台灣舉行的第二次的大型軍演這次有很多國際分析師都說其實中國這次的軍演其實是對台灣的完全攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3229.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3234.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那中國針對這次軍演他就說那是我們是針對賴清德總統的就職言論而來的可是很多這個軍事專家說這麼大型的軍演絕對是已經準備了好幾個月也就是說不管賴清德總統講什麼反正520之後我就是要給你下馬威實際上我們看到應該也都是這個樣子那剛剛局長你有提到就是說這次軍事的這演習發布的這個行動代號是2024A |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3258.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3273.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
2024有A可能就是還是有BCD一系列2024可能他就會對台灣有一系列的這種軍演的這個活動這個軍演的這個演習那像這個除了這個軍演之外我們也看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3275.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3304.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這幾天有很多這個台灣的這個藝人被迫表派就是轉發台灣從來不是一個國家的這個貼文所以我們可以看到這個中國的這個文攻武嚇從來都沒有停止過那接下來本期想請教的就是說我不曉得說國安局有沒有注意到二月份的一個報導那二月份有一位中國的旅澳 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3305.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3324.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
法學家袁紅冰他就提到了在這個大選之後習近平他發現韓國瑜也許會當上這個立法院的院長傅坤祺可能會成為國民黨立法院黨團的總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3326.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3344.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那時候他就提到就是說要這個王滬寧跟宋濤好好的抓住這兩個人律師這個報導請問這個我們國安局有沒有掌握呢有沒有掌握這是在二月份的時候透露了 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3344.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3359.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
不是520之後或是說這兩天立法院通過這個立法委員立法院的職權行使法這時候才說的他2月份就透露了有這樣子的這個這個訊息而且他有提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3362.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3374.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
他那時候有提到四個很重要的要點,我不曉得這裡面的內容,國安局有沒有去了解他的真偽?我想請問一下,有沒有注意到這份報導? |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3377.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3400.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
對於中共國內的政情以及對台政策的相關的討論跟動向本局都有關注各種的公情跟秘情至於到我們在二合一大選之後因為國內的政治的生態還有結構已經出現一些變化所以我們確實有注意到中共在涉台政策的討論過程當中他們有去針對未來的一些政策做一些規劃跟討論大概有幾個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3403.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3429.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這個是會加強跟臺灣各界包括中央地方的民意代表各種的公協會以及各種的宗教文化團體還有各種的商業團體來加強各種的交流那在交流過程當中他們採取的策略大概是會透過這種區隔對待的方式以及拉同打疫的方式來爭取更多對於中國大陸相關政策立場的支持所以這個趨勢我們一直都有在掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3430.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3451.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
局長你好像沒有針對的問題我只是要請教您就是說您針對這個袁紅冰她所提出來的這個警告我們事先有沒有掌握或是說我們看到這個報導有沒有去了解來那個局長我想跟您請教一下她有提出了這個四點的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3456.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3471.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
說明,他說第一項,他說就是說習近平他有要求,有四項要求第一項就是說要通過各種有效的途徑要督促韓國瑜、傅坤琦用查閉案反貪腐的名義追查台灣潛艦國造案的問題進而破壞民進黨執政當局的這種國防自主、全民國防的戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3477.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3503.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
瓦解臺灣乙武巨頭的意志這是第一項第二項內容是什麼呢韓國瑜現在也精明確宣布他要以九二共識為前提然後使國共兩黨的九二共識逐步成為臺灣社會主導性的看待兩岸關係的思潮那第三項就是要透過特定人士督促韓國瑜、傅昆吉和國民黨立法院的黨團利用議會改革就是國會改革的名義提出立法院的調查權總統的諮詢權、訪台獨等法 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3505.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3510.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
第四點就是要透過特定人士在韓國瑜主導台灣民主基金會之後呢督促他通過台灣民主基金會跟世界各國的華小組建的中華統一促進會等組織呢進行密切的接觸交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3534.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3549.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
針對這四項內容我想請教請教局長我們國安局有掌握這內容的政委嗎因為現在看起來這幾天從上個禮拜到昨天所發生立法院的這個混亂好像就是有劇本式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3552.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3570.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
對於委員所提到的這位中共的一律作家的一些觀察我們都有在注意那我一開始有跟委員說明就我們國家情報單位來講我們不會只單一的去注意到單一的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3571.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3600.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
除了一個單一訓練以外公情、秘情我們都要做各種的交叉比對才有辦法來完整的掌握中共對台相關政策動態那對於剛剛這位中國的一意作家的一些觀點那跟我們一些情資我們在交叉比對之後我才會跟委員說明中共會全力的來經營跟台灣各界的接觸也包括到中央的民意代表也就是立法院地方的民意代表跟各種的團體的交流那這會變成是他們未來對台政策的一個主要的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3601.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3617.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以說國台辦在1月27號連時間都非常的明確說國台辦在1月27號就向習近平、港網、滬寧提供了一份文件這題目就叫做占領台灣立法院之高點的統戰戰略要點所以說立法院其實就是他們第一個攤頭堡是嗎?是這樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3621.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3635.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
在中共涉台系統的討論當中有特別去注意到立法院的席次結構確實出現變化那他們也提到了應該要加強跟在野黨之間的交往還有交流以便來掌握台灣相關政策發展的一個脈動確實是有這樣的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3637.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3657.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好,那,局長,我再請問,如果他的這個第三項,要透過特定人士督促韓國瑜、傅坤祺和國民黨、立運黨團的立運黨團呢,要提出,比如說提出立法院的調查權、總統的執行權、反台獨,這樣子的話,有沒有這所謂的特定人士是不是就犯了反滲透法? |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3658.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3687.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
這部分反滲透法的規定來講它有一些構成的法律要件那當然這部分我們會特別來注意在兩岸的一些交往或互動過程當中那有沒有涉及到反滲透法所提到的條文這大概有幾個重點我跟委員報告一下第一個是協助中國在臺灣本地發展相關的組織那第二個是竊取相關的國家機密那第三個就是有沒有涉及到可能高科技技術的轉移的問題那這大概就是我們在談反滲透法最主要的法律要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3688.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3713.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那我們會注意相關的交流有沒有涉及到這樣的違法性那有沒有涉及反滲透法的第五條規定任何人不得受滲透來源之指示委託或資助進行遊說法第二條所定之遊說行為對那這部分就必須要有相關的證據對我們要注意所以說很有可能對不對這所謂的特定人士很可能就是所謂的反滲透法而且這個受遊說的受遊說者呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3717.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3738.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
被遊說者呢?他這有沒有處罰?如果屬實的話。對,這就是我剛剛所提到的,這個部分事實上有關於那個反滲透法的法律要件,因為是大院通過的。那我們在查查相關的國安案件過程當中,也會跟檢方跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3739.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3746.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
局長,其實之前我有跟您質詢過,我一直在請教您就是說中共到底會不會武力犯胎,您說您所得到的情報是目前沒有這個跡象,到目前為止還是沒有這個跡象嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3767.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3769.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
如果是說他用另外一種方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3785.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3802.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
比如說我剛才所提到的袁紅冰所提到的這四項先讓你台灣內部亂讓台灣內部的這個協力者跟他做配合用另外一種方式顛覆台灣有沒有可能他不是用武力也許他用的是剛剛袁紅冰所講的這四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3804.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3833.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這是我們所謂的複合式威脅的一個做法事實上剛剛在進來會議室之前我也跟外面的媒體朋友說明一下我們要注意的複合式威脅大概有幾個重點我原本事實上剛剛也提到了第一個是武力的威脅跟恫嚇那第二個是透過海上的灰色地帶來凸顯中共在台灣水域的管轄權把台海內海化第三個就是對台灣的政治的滲透那第四個就是認知作戰的操作那這個大概是我們面臨到中共複合式威脅主要的樣子所以看起來台灣真的是面臨一個非常嚴峻的考驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3833.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3834.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
接下來請洪森和委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3864.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3865.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
蔡主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3876.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3897.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
局長在這個我想520賴總統就職之後那中國在我們看到在5月23號在台海周遭其實就這個發動了所謂聯合力艦的大規模的軍演那上一次當然我們看到比較大規模的軍演是2022年的培洛西議長來台的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3899.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3924.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
但這兩次的軍演我們看到當然它的範圍其實不太一樣在2022年的時候其實比較多是聚焦在台海中線那這一次我們看到包括這個紅色的色塊尤其是更變本加厲是在我們離島的地區我們看到在2022年的時候針對離島地區是比較少的但這一次非常聚焦在我們的離島地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3927.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3944.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這些區塊我們現在看到包括金門、馬祖、東營之前在金門才發生了中國漁船的問題其實造成很大的灰色地帶的爭端那看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3946.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3973.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
中國對我們離島我覺得明目張膽的這個動客其實態勢很明確那我們看一下這是前日本駐中國的武官小元凡斯那他其實有說中國軍方有對台灣展開海上封鎖的軍事計畫目的是要顯示他們能夠迅速的行動奪取台灣離島地區下一張那也包括我們看到幾個包括美國智庫的專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3975.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3984.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那講到中國軍人新的焦點是孤立台灣離島就這部分我想問這個局長你們掌握到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3985.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4010.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
對,就像委員剛剛所提出來的這一次的演習跟工軍過往的演習有一個差別性過去主要是集中在台灣的周邊海空域那這一次的演習所宣布的有九個的演習區域他除了台灣本島以外還包括我們的外離島像是金門、馬祖、烏丘跟東營那特別在演習的期間他動員到海警的編隊有在相關的水域來進行執法的巡查的一個演練的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4011.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4027.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
主要的目的就是在於凸顯他在台海地區的管轄權跟執法權有點要把台海內海化的這種意圖在裡面所以這部分我們會特別的在加強跟海巡署之間的一個溝通聯繫透過情報的分享來提醒到中共活動的動態 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4028.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4054.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
局長如果今天這個中共他們一個重要的目的跟戰略是要孤立台灣的離島或者是以離島作為一個灰色地帶的戰略的標的的話那我們大家都知道其實要攻佔一個區域或孤立一個區域其實很重要的是必須截斷他們的通訊對那就你們現在的這個情報在可以講的範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4057.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4085.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
中國有沒有要截斷我們離島通訊的計畫因為這問題之前也在委員會這邊有跟委員報告跟討論過在過去這兩三年裡面大概中共去截斷了我們臺馬之間的海底電纜已經有二十幾次的次數那次數非常的一個頻密那所以假如說透過一個海底電纜的一個截斷的方式那確實會對於我們海島外離島的一個通訊的安全造成一些危害局長這是我為什麼一直在 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4087.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4097.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
委員會裡面一直要跟國安局來詢問這個原因對這個題目的原因之前我在5月1號的時候其實我也我想問過蔡局長也包括國土辦對 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4099.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4117.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那這次再加上這次523的這次演習之後看到他們其實對我們離島這個聚焦的態勢所以我要問這個局長你在5月1號答詢的時候你有很清楚的表達你覺得台馬海欖跟其他的國內海欖 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4118.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4147.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
的功能跟定位你覺得不同所以你認為應該列入到CI那現在你說你要回去溝通那經過了大概快一個月的時間那你們現在溝通的狀況怎麼樣上次在跟委員討論過程當中我們從國安的角度來講確實認為外離島的通訊安全跟韌性非常的重要那委員在上次表達這個關注之後那我們在會後也跟行政院的相關的單位特別是國土辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4148.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4170.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
有做一些討論那國土辦事在5月15號就像委員在螢幕上所顯示的資料一樣有召開跨部會的會議來進行協調討論議題就是要把外離島的這些海底電纜列為是國家的關鍵基礎設施那但過程當中還在做相關的評估而在會議當中我們國安局一定會來表達對於這些通訊安全跟韌性的重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4171.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4193.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以這場會議你們有參與?對,我們有派員參與那現在這場會議之後的方向是什麼?大概就是往加強重視外離島的海嵐安全的方向在規劃那就你知道會把臺滿海嵐列入CI嗎?目前朝這個方向在規劃那至少包括不只是CI也許是CCI也就是Conditional Critical Infrastructure |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4194.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4214.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
也就是它是一個準或類CI的概念來維護外離島的海嵐安全往這方向在規劃局長我覺得你們應該要非常非常堅持從國家安全的本位在從國家安全的本位裡面坦白說我真的到目前為止聽不出來有任何理由可以不把台馬海嵐列入CI |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4215.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4242.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
不管是各層級的演練或者是相關的維護計畫包括現在中共對於我們在離島這樣子的關注甚至聚焦有可能大家看到前面的這些國際的軍事的專家的這樣子的提醒我實在是想不出任何一點理由可以不把它列入CIA當然今天速發部沒有在現場但我要請局長我覺得你們一定要堅持你們安全的本位 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4244.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4271.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這個事情從安全的本位來告訴其他的主管部會不要再從這種想要便宜形式的角度來看待這個事情這是我下面一個想要跟局長討論的問題其實我們看到列入Ci的話有幾個非常重要的重點是他定期評估風險威脅及弱點然後撰寫計劃書定期核實實際的執行成效這是現在我們為什麼要列入Ci下一張那 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4274.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4299.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這個我們要求幾個相關部要求相關部會要提安全防護計畫那第一集的話送行政院第二集第三集送主管機關那各自有各自演練的成績可是局長我要請問其實我們知道現在中共對我們的各種軟的硬的攻擊其實它也不斷的在轉變那現在就國安局的角度有沒有跟我們這些相關的主管部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4300.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4312.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
有什麼樣的合作的機制?對,這大概分兩個面向一個部分是行政院有召開國土安全的跨部會協調會報是由行政院的副院長主持那本局會派我們的副局長去參加相關的會報來在會議當中跟各部會來溝通協調相關CI維護的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4319.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4339.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們會特別從國安的角度來提醒各單位要注意這個重點這是第一個平台第二個平台是國安局本身有我們的國家情報協調的機制那在這個平台我們會邀請國土辦來參加相關的討論那我們會分享現在國際上在防範CI的相關的整備作業的重點在哪裡那也來提醒各部會應該要注意到這樣的發展趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4340.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4366.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
希望我這邊會特別想要提這件事情主要是因為我知道其實你們相對於其他的部會相對於國土辦或相對於主管機關其實你們有一個別人沒有的東西其實就是關於你的情報資訊對其實這個情報資訊對於其他主管機關來說他要做各種防範或演練的計畫或者是風險管理的計畫來說他必須先知道可能會有的攻擊樣態是什麼這個事情的資訊是來自於情報 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4368.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4374.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所以如果其他主管機關對於中共或者是對於我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4376.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4402.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
敵對勢力他們的攻擊樣態不熟悉、不了解、陌生的時候其實你可以想像他寫的防護計畫的效果有效性其實是非常非常差的所以我當然希望說其實這個部分是要請國安局來跟其他部會甚至不是只是在這個會議上面提出而已其實是應該是要有一個情報提供的工作計畫這個情報提供工作計畫裡面協助我們的主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4403.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4429.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
並期的review到底他們設想的會受到威脅會受到攻擊的情境的更新這才有可能去進一步去修改他們的防護計畫我想這個工作的流程是今天為什麼一直想要在這邊一直提醒局長的原因那我自己是希望說可能不只是在那個會報上面提出來而已如果這個目前其實幾個部會來跟公安局來要求相關的提 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4431.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4459.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個情報或情資的提供目前狀況怎麼樣事實上除了剛剛講的兩個主要的協調匯報的機制以外在每一天的工作階層的互動當中也都有很多的專案小組那國安局有被邀請的話我們一定是堅持我們的國安專業那也把國際社會相關防護CI的作業樣態來提供給各部會來做參考那行政院他們也會規劃比如像精華演習來針對關鍵設施的防護做必要的演練跟協調那這部分我們會提供我們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4461.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4483.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這部分再麻煩局長我覺得跟其他主管機關因為我其實問了一些主管機關相關他們防護計畫或者對於被攻擊樣態的情境的設定坦白說因為他們不在場我就不多說但我聽起來是有點令人擔心的他們對於對方可能會攻擊或威脅我們的各種做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4484.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4485.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4527.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4529.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
主席有請國安局蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4536.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4538.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
國安局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4561.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4561.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4576.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4595.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
2024A立建演習我們從媒體、從客觀、從工情、從不同的管道我們收斂產生出來的結果讓大家來分享一下第一個各位看一下這張圖是一張衛照圖套和、套疊了台灣有臨海基線 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4596.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4618.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
有12海里,還有在我們東邊日本的雲南國島、宮古島那些相關的基地以及海峽中線這張圖,如果我們參與重要會議的國安包括陸委、包括國防部、如果國安局甚至是其他部會,我們沒有一個基礎的共同圖像 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4619.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4619.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
全體委員會發言委員會報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4648.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4676.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
根據公情公開顯示我們國軍掌握的各個演習區域包括水面艦包括海警包括空中的機那這個動作出來報紙有燈那麼各個不同領域的人有不同的解讀我們再看下一張這張是大範圍的圖就是不只是台海的周遭包括南海包括東海 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4679.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4695.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
民航的航線503航線中共發布的演習區當時的整個大區域的氣象因為颱風要來了這次國防部公布的操演區 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4696.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4718.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們通通經過校正可是國防部是我們是非常肯定國軍能夠保持他的操演兵力就說都拒止在24里之外但是國防部標示出來的他的演習區跟中共發布的區域範圍如果用圖形比較套疊發現就是有不一樣的地方這個不談對錯所以產生的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4722.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4749.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們根據CSIS對公布的馬上做了一篇左邊是中共發布的那麼右邊是我們國防部發布的所以範圍有所落差那麼如果以局裡面的角色來看把兩個圖套疊我們就知道內部我們的解釋為什麼要產生這個落差是因為是反制媒體戰或者是心理戰或者有其他的這個文攻武嚇他的作為可以幫忙做解套 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4750.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4764.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
所以精準圖資正確判斷智慧用兵要操之在我那下面呢我們就用方法論收斂的方法來解釋這次的演習我們先看東部戰區發言人講是他是檢驗戰區聯合作戰的實戰能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4768.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4791.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
演練的項目,聯合凱空戰備警行,聯合奪取戰場,綜合控制權,聯合驚打要害目標等一體化的聯合作戰,這是在中共來講實際上是許多年度演習計劃的,這個並不代表是他的犯台計劃,但是是文攻武嚇的一個手段跟方法,所以我們看他的本質、特徵、核心、目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4792.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4796.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
他的基礎是什麼?他三個步驟以戰役規則實現整體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4798.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4799.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
以戰術的規則來驗證末端的監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4825.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4854.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
要計劃制定聯合作戰的行動規則那麼活用規則控制作戰行動這就到底下末端的小部隊那這一次出來的部隊規模實際上並不大我們講到灰色地帶它這個執行聯合力艦2024A的它的原則是不設限沒有發布禁航區沒有影響到國際航道也沒有動手也沒有實彈射擊做海上的臨檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4855.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4873.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那麼是統戰的策略灰色地帶的行動隔離封鎖、武力攻台三項行動這是他的念頭他的想法將來會做常態不定期穿插行動就是變成四個new normal常態化可是如果我們沒有一個共同的基礎圖像 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4874.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4894.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
不同的單位,比方講我們在國安會開會,國防部、國安局或者陸委會、外交部,你沒有一個共同圖像,是各個參謀提供你長官你的論述解答,就是論述方法你可能套疊出來的現象並不是一個coherent,不能夠統一的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4896.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4913.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
同樣我們常常講對方利用灰色地帶行動灰色地帶的行動基本上就是避免軍事衝突但是威懾武嚇產生消耗型無止境的消耗戰反過來檢討我們自己的灰色是什麼第一個法律不周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4915.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4939.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
這個是1982年的聯合國海洋法公約第一版就是美國在海洋法公約裡面的執法的論述跟無害通過innocent passage跟我們中華民國的要求是不一致的那同樣對於南海的這個定義以我們的當年的政府的論述跟美方的解讀也有落差我不談對錯那至於呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4941.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4960.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
反介入與國際理論因為很多的國家包括我們的海軍現在都有這本叫CuseUnplanned Encounters at Sea那這個是Unclassified你都可以看得到所以利用這本裡面的內容透過魔法透過國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4962.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4985.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
外交部以及陸委會大家對這上面有一個共同的認知我想對於局裡面對長期的情勢判斷是有幫助的那麼演習時間雖然只有兩天他是中央軍委會下面中部戰區檢視解放軍執行海空聯合戰備巡邏聯合奪取戰場綜合的控制以及聯合精準打擊的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4987.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5011.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
他是在持續精進在練習但是不是犯台計劃那另外就是結合了海警這個執法行動聯合巡邏快速反應應變處理這個比較面臨挑戰就是我們講Law Enforcement我們的海巡署跟對方我們希望在Law End的部分還是要保持能夠對話溝通就像用Cuse一項所以我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5013.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5039.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
外面的一般的情報或者是公情或者媒體的報導講述的就是要全程演練奪島演練這是不正確的那實際上它是給我們不停的施壓那後面的科目也會不一樣所以它實際上做的是一種表象的認知認知作戰那我們就不要被認知作戰誤導去做誤判下面各位看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5042.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5066.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個是國安部的公佈的圖實際上這個下面就是我們長年來面臨到的中共的文攻武嚇上兵伐謀不戰而屈人之逼其次伐交不只是斷你的國家的友邦同時包括你的海欄對外聯絡這個是communication那其次伐兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5067.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5093.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
就是消耗你的戰力去看看你的作戰計畫是不是周延完整最後才是所謂的攻擊兩棲進犯實際上他只是威者武嚇軍演困台持續利誘國際孤立美中角力的過程中持續施壓他希望動搖你的國家生存重心剛才很多同仁講到了就是說這個想定我們國家沒有想到那個想定沒有想到 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5095.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5110.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我特別要提醒就是如果我們沒有一個JCOP如果由貴局來提供那麼在國安會層級包括行政院的國土安全部比方講現在所有的高壓電塔、超高壓配線 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5111.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5138.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
在辦公室有這些圖嗎?我相信他們有電話協調的時候說隆起的配電廠超高壓345千伏161千伏幾個變電器跳掉了什麼時候能夠修復?沒有人能回答國土辦也不會回答所以我們來看一下模擬的一個scenario我們今年在3月14、15以政大國關中心我在那邊是諮詢委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5141.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5158.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這個亞太安全中心我們辦了一個國際性的兵棋推演那麼國外參加的人員有60位27個是來自耶魯大學的資深的教授研究員我們看一下一個想定發展出來這次中共所謂的用遠程的火箭兵這火箭軍導彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5162.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5187.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
如果兩席要進犯但是沒有做所有的演習的過程中間所謂的競為所及毀斷斷你這點真正他要目的是什麼呢就是在後面那個圈圈他的目標是在48小時、72小時貪玩你的民生社會結構、電力系統、燃油、海嵐、通訊剛剛都講了銀行、金融性、飲水、化工、電子、空中運輸、地面運輸 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5189.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5216.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
醫療體系我們怎麼樣恢復可能貴局在這個題目上面集合大家把這個問題找出來在這個問題能夠找到最好的solution強化我們的社會韌性另外再來談國軍的防禦那這個東西我很願意跟貴局的研究人員做一個討論提供一個方法論因為這裡面還要結合資料庫如果大家只是取單一現象單一的scenario想定就來問問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5217.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5233.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
這個時候找不到一個解決的方案以上的這個東西請提供局長參考看局長有什麼意見好 謝謝委員提供非常專業對於這次共軍演習的分析那在整個的共軍演習的過程當中事實上就像委員剛所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5234.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5254.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
重點是在於恫嚇,他並不是要起戰。那同時除了軍事上演訓的恫嚇以外,我們也把關注的重點放在他們海上灰色地帶的操作,特別是在外離島的水域。那另外還有就是認知作戰的操作。這一次在演習的兩天的過程當中,那中共的認知作戰大概聚焦在幾個部分,這包括到伊美。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5254.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5255.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們共同努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5286.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5287.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
有請我們蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
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好謝謝主席黃國仁早好早這個有關於剛剛你所提的恫嚇的一個這個字眼裡面來講話我想這8年來都一直是常態性的已經有這樣的一個動作跟行為我覺得今天在剛剛前一段時間有看到那個媒體媒體特別有報導就是說共青 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5339.707 |
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5356.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我個人覺得懷疑的就是一個對台獨分裂勢力獨抹行徑的懲罰這一個字眼是不是就是 |
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意味著就是對台獨的一個動向才會有這樣的一個恫嚇那當然在聯合歷屆的2024驚艷的期間為5月23到5月24由東部戰區組織兵力解放軍部隊包含陸海空 |
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5380.285 |
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及火箭無警部隊包含海警警船是結合軍事及執法單位的聯合行動演習地點位於在臺灣本島北南東及金門馬祖烏丘東營的周邊所以這一次的軍議院規劃可能有兩種的狀況那這兩種狀況本席認為國安局能夠來做一個說明 |
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第一對賴總統就職演說後才著手規劃的經驗中共三天內就可以完成規劃動員其各軍種配合演練這對我們而言是一個嚴重的警訊代表共軍的突襲能力提升第二是中共早就預備好兵力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5438.675 |
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5466.036 |
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要經驗那麼國安局及各情勢單位應該早有掌握情勢若不知道情勢就會失職但若是知道情勢卻沒有先向民眾預告的原因是什麼之前選舉期間連衛星飛過都要發警報這一次如果預先公開共青可能經驗的消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
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就可以打擊共青的認知作戰所以這個局長你來說明一下這是國人現在有很多的疑問跟問號你來做一個說明好不好大概幾個面向跟委員做一些補充的說明第一個是大概在二合一選舉之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
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我們就對中共可能對於台灣各種施壓的動作各種的方案有做過一些評估那基本上的評估我們認為在總統大選到520就職之間中共對台的施壓有可能透過這些常態式的軍演來以中度的來對我們施壓 |
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另外在520之後我記得也是在上次貴委員會報告說明的時候有提到520之後要注意的是因為6月到10月甚至有時候到11月的第一週是中共例行軍演的熱季那這個階段會不會再有相關運用常態例行的軍演來對台灣有一些針對性的軍事演訓的動作那這是我們在看整個時間架構上認為要注意的重點 |
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5555.288 |
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中共在這次軍演過程當中有去宣傳說它是在懲毒或打毒可是也要說明一下在520的就職演說當中我們總統大概延續了還是既有的維持現狀的兩岸政策的基調跟路線中共在批評的所謂的中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬那事實上也是在蔡前總統的四大堅持裡面的第二項堅持也就是說相關的論述並沒有出現新的改變 |
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但是中共在這種情況之下國內外社會對於相關的就職演說普遍肯定的情況之下還有這場軍演那我們認為他主要的目的是在對內做宣傳對外做宣示他對台海情況擁有相關的主控權那這可能是他的政治目的至於預判的部分委員剛剛關心到我們有事前情緒的預判這個齁 |
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5576.755 |
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5595.124 |
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我們在過去歷任的總統的就職時間點就是他就職的時候尤其是那一總統就職的時候在時間點上就很敏感第二天就會經營了所以按照這種的預判 |
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5625.875 |
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是不是就是會剛剛所提的這個所謂的獨抹的一個因素所以這個就是一個警訊那另外就是賴總統上任之後兩岸局勢不會和緩甚至可能會更嚴峻本席建議國安局系統應該配合陣戰在保護情報來源的前提之下以專業判斷而非政治決策 |
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檢視什麼樣的一個情資可以向民眾公開,如此才能讓國人信任對國安的團隊的運作,是不是?是,是這樣沒有錯。這是上次在貴院來做提報,我們特別去警示到中共後續可能的軍事演訓跟複合式威脅的動態,有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5648.05 |
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| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那我不知道你們這邊有沒有一個情資在20就是聯合立建的2024A的經驗關係的情資有沒有發現到發現到什麼解放軍的信息資源部隊已經在其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5667.369 |
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5686.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那過去裡面的這個今年的事業撤銷到戰略支援部隊現在改為成立一個信息支援部隊但是據我們瞭解在今年的過程裡面他就在其中的一個支援部隊你們有沒有掌握這個信息 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這部分跟委員說明一下因為中共的戰略支援部隊在稍早剛好進行改組那把它改編成包括信息支援部隊網路空間部隊以及軍事航天部隊那主要的目的就是在做專業的分工那也在提升也在提升他們在進行認知作戰還有資通訊攻防作戰能力的提升所以確實有在經驗的時候是確實有 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5712.423 |
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5735.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
跟委員報告一下,在軍演的那兩天我們所收獲的相關的爭議訊息的散佈確實有比較嚴重一點。比較嚴重?有,有。對不對?對。所以,現在的這個戰略支援部隊現在改為這個信息的支援部隊。對。那所以在戰略支援的部隊可能參與本次的青年,若是真的我們應該透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
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這一次的經驗觀察,新的單位能力,它的能力,新的能力還有它的新的功能,好不好?那另外就是,我在這一次的經驗所看到的真正目的為何?是不是為了施壓還是實戰化? |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
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那中共宣稱經驗目的是要在懲戒台獨警告外部該意識力但共經這一次的經驗有實彈且一旦未發顯然其目的不是在施壓或警告更像是為後續進一步的經驗的作為預言這國安局的情報裡面千萬不要只看表面 |
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所以你們要更深入的了解它後續的可能會發生的狀況你們有沒有什麼樣的一個未來要什麼樣的因應剛剛在書面報告也跟委員會的各位委員有稍微提到了他這一次的演習的代號是叫做聯合力建2024A |
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那後續會不會有系列的演習是我們關注的主要的重點那第二部分是他是一個脅迫性的軍演那也是剛剛陳委員有特別提到的他在這次的演習過程當中你可以看到他並沒有劃設進航區然後他並沒有進行實彈的演訓那同時演習的時間比起過去的兩場演習來得很短只有兩天所以你也可以看到共軍有在做一些風險管控的一個動作在裡面也就是說在施壓台灣 |
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的同時也避免到情勢的過度升溫而引起國際社會的高度關注所以你們的報告裡面聯合立建的2024A可能還會有後續的B、C等國安局認為這個結合是多種的這個武裝部隊那執法單位的經驗演變這個經驗會變成常態性還是在每一年每一次都會有 |
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5856.72 |
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對,對,這我們要來注意,因為它分為ABC,也許它會有系列性的分科目的各種的軍事演訓,後續還會有相關的整備跟規劃,那這也是我們後續要關注的重點,也一開始跟委員報告了,因為6月到10月甚至11月是他演習的熱季,所以剛剛委員提醒我們會來注意。 |
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5875.993 |
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所以現在的共軍的他的經驗一直把範圍一直縮小就靠近到我們這個臺海的這些戰略的一些區域所以我們特別要注意到就是因為我們現在的一個新的政府我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
讓國安． |
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| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
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我們請國安局長請蔡局長好 謝主席 丑偉好局長好 局長我們在520之前我們有談到說中共可能會對台的一些舉措那時候我們有想到說可能會對我們的油水電一些重要的基礎建設來做一些襲擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
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那在這一次我們看到在新竹的變電所應該是兒媒變電所嘛我相信局長應該有聽到相關的訊息那是一個不成功的嘗試那我們不可以把它直接跪就於是敵對勢力那有可能是不知道有可能是我們無法去猜測動因我們還沒有辦法找到 |
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對於相關的這些便電所或者是這些重要的基礎關鍵設施臺灣有沒有相應的設備來去做這樣子的檢測跟預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
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有這部分在上次來委員會做專案報告關鍵基礎設施防護的時候我們非常感謝委員有做一些提醒那這部分主要是由行政院的跟事業目的主管機關有做相關的一個防護的規劃那在他們規劃過程當中國安局也會提供我們的意見給他們參考 |
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局長有沒有回答的問題就是說大概現在完成的比率是多少那相關的我剛剛講說紅外線警報也好那在裝設在重大的這些變電所還是這些高壓電這些相關的這些場域的話目前的達成率是到什麼程度還是只是因為這是一個單獨的個案我現在是覺得說做得很好我們成功的去避免這種重大的這種對我們電業的這種損害那我想要知道的是說目前這樣的比例是多少 |
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6064.385 |
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比例的部分數字的部分我現在手上沒有資料那因為主要是由國土辦在做相關的規劃跟進度的追蹤那正如委員剛所提到的因為以這一次的個案來講確實警方可以及時來發現有這樣的闖入的動作那判斷上目的上因為那個纜線現在的市價行情好像相當不錯所以才會有這些所謂侵入性的竊取的動作這是局長認為說也有可能是因為經濟的動因嗎對有這有有一些判斷謝謝局長 |
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6094.045 |
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6104.974 |
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我還是希望說作為國家情報的重要首長那我們希望是說有能夠把這一個數字上面能夠有一個期望值然後傳達給各個相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6107.858 |
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6136.71 |
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經濟部也好,或者是台電也好給他們這些相關的你們希望其他國家的這些諮詢大概是怎麼樣讓他們有往這個方向往這個方向比例然後去前進那我們就可以比較不用廣泛的說有或者是有在做有在努力但是我們沒有一個數字去管理的話這個麻煩局長可以請局內的同仁一定會有在國外研習相關的把他們這個相關的比例做出來一個訂定的標準做出來然後分享給大家因為你們不是執行單位但是你們可以把這個情報分享給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6137.47 |
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6163.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
再來就是中國的大規模軍演剛才有很多我們的立委員的同仁都有提到那這一次的聯合立見2020A我們可以看到其實很多國際社會上面都有做反應那他其實比上一次裴洛西來訪台灣的時候我認為他的強度或者是跟他的密度都還是有在增強的這個趨勢不過國人已經不像上一次這麼的緊張應該說上一次也沒有特別緊張 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6165.066 |
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6189.383 |
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那這種軍演常態化之後可是民眾生活如常我們當然非常開心但是這個民眾生活如常是因為不知道風險還是知道風險但是非常的堅韌這兩個之間我們可能國安局這邊可能可以稍作一些民調這個民意調查如果是不知道風險那作為國家的情報首長不是只有保存機密不是只有保密而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6190.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6210.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
還有釋放資訊我想很多人都認為說局長這個不要說局長那個不要說如果你覺得這個有機密性就不要說不對不只是如此國安局不是只有保密而已這不是保密局國安局還有把重要的資訊釋放給國人跟國際社會我們監控到什麼比方說上次 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6212.096 |
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6219.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
先國防部長邱國正的時候我們來詢問他說軍機各個機型為什麼都不把他揭示出來他說因為太多了可是為什麼這一次聯合力艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6221.172 |
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6250.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們不但釋放出來中共的軍機、機型、航空器、航海器等等因為我們讓世界知道說這是什麼樣的在緊迫的來去壓迫台灣而這一些壓迫台灣的力量就能夠讓我們作為國會議員反映給其他的美國國會跟其他跟我國相關的盟友告訴他們說現在就是台灣的安全危機就在這邊所以我們能夠爭取到更多的包含安全上面你說是這些軍事的融資也好像是最近美國國會通過的這些相關的法案也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6251.26 |
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6274.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那如果沒有這些東西,怎麼樣去證明說我國面臨到這一些挑戰呢?所以,國安局也好,或者是其他各個國安相關的機構,不是只有保密而已,還有釋放出應該釋放出來的資訊給我們一般的民眾跟國際社會。所以局長想請教一下,是不是因為民眾對共軍的軍人感到麻痹,你覺得他們應該要怎麼樣去面對這樣子的? |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6278.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6293.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
提到的一個觀點我們都非常尊重也一定程度的認同過去來講國家情報機關當然我們的一些資訊有一些公情跟密情的來源會重視保密那主要的資訊的分享都是向國家的最高決策者來做報告那但是隨著整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6295.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6295.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
主要的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6314.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6315.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
菁姐局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6336.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6361.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那我很尊重局長就是在針對國會議員的答詢的時候都很努力的去回應那我想這是第一步那在戰術上面或者是說你說軍事武裝備這些可能是有它的機密性但戰略上面應該是沒有戰略上面國家的戰略的透明性是很重要的因為不是每一個民眾都曾經在都是軍官士官或者是一般的士兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6362.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6385.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
當然每一個人都是國防的參與者當然你要更清晰的去跟所有民眾來表達所以剛才局長有提到的這些你說灰色地帶還有各種中國的這些做法那最近有一個叫ICAT就Illegal, Aggressive, Deceptive那可以簡單的跟我們民眾講一下那現在這一個概念我們台灣是要怎麼樣回應嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6386.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6409.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
對,所謂的ICAT是美國新任的印太司令所引述他菲律賓友人的一個觀念那認為說可能面臨到中共的一個脅迫他有所謂的這個illegal、coercive跟aggressive以及那個deceptive的這種的一個樣態那老實講他應用在我們剛剛在跟委員報告的中共的複合式威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6410.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6410.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
謝謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6437.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6439.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
今天是副主委嗎?請陸委會梁副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6457.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6474.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
副主委好副主委這次中國的軍援我有注意到陸委會第一時間已經做出回應了表達我們的強烈的抗議然後要求中方不要不斷的軍事的去挑釁那我也注意到我們有談到說用對話來取代和用對話然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6478.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6491.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
請問一下副主委我們接下來的論述因為同時我們會有各個不同的不管是在地協力者或者是中共上面的這些官媒都會想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6492.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6516.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
台灣現在又要跟中國要求他們的中國的留學生來台但同時又在對中方來做出這樣的說法那我覺得當然是中國這樣的說法是完全我們不能夠接受的但我們要怎麼樣論述就是說我們如何在面對他們威脅的時候能夠有效勇敢的站出來去做出我們該說的話但同時又能夠暢開對話的一個渠道 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6520.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6545.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我想這一次賴總統的講話雖然中共那邊他用各種的方式來解讀但是我覺得賴總統講的基調是不變的也就是遵循中華民國憲政體制那也不用說用很多訓古學的方式去比如說有些人講說講七次九次台灣然後只有七次講這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6549.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6567.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
中國這樣子那對於我們來說我們的兩岸政策是一貫的不管是在歡迎陸生來臺的部分還是要推動兩岸觀光的部分我們的立場都是一貫的我們都是敞開大門現在的問題在於說中共的態度到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6568.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6578.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他如果說,這其實就在一念之間他如果說願意的話,其實不管是陸生還是觀光團其實早就都可以打開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6580.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6608.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那陸生跟觀光團其實那個時候都是在疫情之後然後他們把它中斷掉現在疫情結束了其實我看不出有什麼任何的理由謝謝主委謝謝副主委那把這個中方他是單獨的自己單獨的把這個惡意這個螺旋上升所以沒有存在說我們要什麼開放什麼釋放什麼而是中方自己把它關閉這樣的渠道是謝謝副主委副主委不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6609.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6632.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
主席我可不可以再請局長最後一個問題蔡局長報告局長這個因為剛才提到這個資訊的透明的部分那接下來要問一下保密的部分因為我們的資權刑事法剛剛刪讀那想請教萬一在新法的修正之下那 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6634.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6657.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
因為變成說祕密事項或者答覆的或提供資料必須要經過主席同意不然不能夠拒絕那在這樣的新法的修正之下你們要怎麼樣去應對對這部分我們會再進一步的來了解新法修訂之後未來在不管是委員會的提報那要做怎樣的一個規劃跟配合我們再跟委員會特別是召委這邊來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6658.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6659.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
接下來請林柱英委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6707.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6714.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
謝謝主席 主席有請我們蔡局長跟田政次請蔡局長還有田政次謝謝主席 林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6722.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6735.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
局長跟政次這個問題是不知道兩位有沒有看到有一個即時新聞是昨天的時候發出來的就是出席賴總統的就職活動澳洲有多名的議員在 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6737.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6759.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
回到他們的辦公室之後發現就收到了中國的代表處寄出了這個所謂恐嚇信件要求他們要遵守一中原則之外呢我們可以感受到的是中國戰狼式的手段似乎在520的最近動作頻頻首先我是不是先請田政次好了政次有收到這個訊息嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6762.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6790.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們在整個統計這個520的外賓來的時候確實中國用盡了很多的方法我跟我原報告不僅澳洲不僅澳洲那麼其他的部分可能不方便說我可以跟你私下報告不僅澳洲的議員接受其他有相當多的國家受到相當嚴厲的說明要阻止他們前來 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6791.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6809.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好 那麼我們的包括除了這個得知訊息之外有沒有什麼其他的作為又或者是這個會不會影響到520之後的相關的有關於國際上面的局勢政策怎麼研判在能夠說的範圍底下可不可以讓我們了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6810.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6825.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這一次來的外賓來了以後其實對台灣的民主化更有更深刻的影響他們會覺得這些所謂中國用戰狼式的威脅其實是在民主國家是不起作用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6825.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6844.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
好言下之意這會不會影響到說接下來他們在更台面上面的交流會受到相關的遏止又或者是說其實影響性不大接下來的其他的我們相關我們知道接下來可能更大的就是有關於國慶的部分那也是剩下半年不到的時間那這些都會受到影響嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6846.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6874.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這個也是他們其中的一個方法我們除了國慶還有其他的比如說它的偉慶也是要用這個機會來怎麼樣來打擊我們在國際間的一些力道所以您說的除了澳洲之外那麼整個我們這一次出席的國家當中歐洲、亞洲那麼加起來幾乎都有受到不同等級的威脅那各自的威脅是什麼樣的樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6875.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6880.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
其實我們知道這個中國的戰狼的手段跟威嚇的方式包括剛剛前面幾位委員提到的這個聯合軍演等等都是一種樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6905.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6924.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那麼在520之後對於國安局來講怎麼樣在外交上面或是國防當中能夠守住我們現在現有的這種外交上面的合作的方式國安局有一些方法跟應對的處理方式嗎或是怎麼樣跟外交部來做合作跟國防部來做合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6925.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6941.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
雖然我們現在面臨到中共的脅迫有比較升高的一個趨勢但是從另外一個角度來講他有提供我們跟國際社會友盟合作非常好的機會也就是說國際社會友盟他會非常關注中共在台海地區軍事活動動態 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6942.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6966.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那台灣在這部分的情報掌聲能力算相當的不錯那我們就可以跟國際友盟來分享這方面的資訊以及中共在台海周邊水域我們剛才提到海上灰色地帶的操作那這些海上灰色地帶的操作動員到海警船或公務船進行這種執法巡查在東海水域日本很關注在南海的水域周邊國家也很關注所以這部分我們也會來加強跟相關國家的一個合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6966.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6994.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
另外有一個重點是在中共的軍委過程當中也會對我們的民主開放的社會來進行所謂的認知作戰操作這種假訊息那剛剛我想在外交部的書面報告當中也提到了今年因為已經或後續還有70個國家要進行相關的選舉活動那台灣在這方面怎樣來因應假訊息的攻擊來展現我們的民主的韌性那也是我們跟國際友盟在加強情報或安全合作主要的重點議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6995.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7008.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
政次可以先請回啦我要繼續再問蔡局長您剛剛有特別提到因為我相信國安局所掌握的就是一些情資包括剛剛我會特別問田政次的部分就是這些情資的研判跟分析的過程當中這個防範與未然是非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7011.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7017.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
當中國的戰狼在外交上面給予許多給我們台灣不只是給我們台灣穿腳鞋之外威脅我們的邦交國或者是友邦這些民意代表的時候其實這樣的情資的訊息的給予是非常重要的但是我們也知道從昨天我們立法院通過了這個職權刑事法25條之後這是原本的法規原本的法規是認為可以避開國防、外交 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7038.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7066.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
如果說有危害那可以遵守秘密但是新修訂的法令變成是經主席同意本席其實想要提出來的是接下來什麼是秘密或不是秘密恐怕就還有另外的包括今天我們國防外交委員會的會議主席都可以來做決定但是我記得我曾經在這裡也詢問過了包括我們的各個行政機關的文件的密等是由主官可以來做認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7067.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7078.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那麼這個就會產生未來這個法令如果真的要執行的時候那麼密等的密之間包括國安局這裡怎麼樣來決定這個密能不能說不說那就是藐視國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7083.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7110.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
說了那就違反國家機密相關的保護我先提醒我沒有要這個局長一定非回答不可但是這是一個包括國安局在內必須現在跟國安會跟國防部跟外交部必須要來審慎討論到底這個密要怎麼辦怎麼做決定尤其是如果說就像剛剛我舉的那個例子我們如果先收到了情資我們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7111.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7127.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
在520或是重要包括未來10月10號的國慶的時候我們知道中國的戰狼又有新的動作的時候那這樣的機密是要在立法院做揭露嗎還是必須在主席的同意之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7128.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7141.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
為了國家的安全即使主席要你說你也不能說這個兩者之間有沒有啟動相關的跨部會的討論跟因應好 謝委員提醒這件事情剛剛那個陳冠廷委員也在關切這個問題那就國家機密保護法來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7145.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7172.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
當然對於絕對機密及機密跟機密的核定有它一定的授權的程序就本局來講大概就有首長有我本人來進行相關的核定那因為我們在行政部門對於機密的核等有我們的作業規範那現在就是對於立法院這邊在立委職權行事法修正之後怎麼樣來取得彼此對於機密認定的一個標準那這涉及到作業的部分那所以在法規以外在作業的部分我們會再跟大院這邊來密切的溝通特別是召委這邊來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7173.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7191.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好接下來當然我要詢問的就是有關於訊息的部分了最近有一陣子已經沉寂的所謂內容農場的臉書粉絲團又開始出現而且現在有許多的學者提醒這些名為在地粉絲團但是經營的不是台灣人 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7192.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7208.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那我不知道國安局有沒有發現這樣的狀況而這樣的粉絲團的存在是為什麼而且這樣的粉絲團喔他基本上呢你會發現喔他寫的是咱周會旅行啦然後美景啦然後但是他居然可以PO出一樣或類似的照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7210.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7226.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那這個狀況到底它的存在的目的為何?而國安局有沒有掌握到相關的形式?因為這樣的帶風向的背後有沒有國安疑慮?這我們一直有專任在關注因為社群媒體上現在主要的平台特別要注意的一個是臉書一個是YouTube |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7226.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7254.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那在這些平台上面有一些的有問題的帳號這種所謂的有問題的帳號它可能平時所張貼的貼文都是風花雪月可是到了一個特別的政治時刻或軍演的時刻它開始轉貼各種替對岸來做文宣或正義訊息散播的一個平台或帳號那我們會透過我們的一些大數據還有AI的技術來針對這些有問題的帳號來做追蹤那有一些帳號它假如是違反到 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7255.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7280.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
社群平台管理的規則的話那我們會請社群平台的管理者把這些有問題的帳號來移除所以這部分我們也會去比對這些帳號它所貼的這些貼文有的是不斷的透過AI重複的複製在進行散播那這部分假如有這樣的現象的話一般來跟社群媒體的平台進行檢舉的話都會下架我記得在去年的上半年光YouTube有一個特定集團的 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7282.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7289.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
衍生的問題帳號500多個我們就透過檢舉的方式來讓他下架臉書的部分我們也是這樣處理好所以就像我剛剛特別提到的這種同樣一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7291.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7316.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
同一個時間點然後出現同樣的標題跟文案甚至於內容其實都是一樣的時候你們應該都有相關的訊息有持續做關注舉個例子在選舉期間也曾經有相關的一個社群媒體平台在散佈錯假的影音訊息講的是蔡前總統他的學位的問題或家族的弊案的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7317.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7343.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那這個在3個小時、4個小時之內就傳散到各個地方去甚至翻譯成20幾種語言那我們後來是透過檢舉的方式在不到17、8個小時之內全部下架好,那麼對於像這樣的相關的訊息包括連現在AI的進入有機會我再跟您來做討論但是我要提醒的另外一個是當你們做了這樣相關的下架之後因為這樣的錯假訊息其實它要擾動的是台灣的民心 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7343.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7363.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
甚至於要營造所謂的帶風向或是假訊息因為他已經出去了下架之外我還是同樣的那句話就是還是要透過其他的部會包括不論是行政院或者是主管機關的部會要把這樣的正確的訊息要重新的再公佈因為要把它列為一個認知作戰的樣態然後要除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7366.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7366.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好 謝謝辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7393.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7395.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
謝謝主席我們請蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7419.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7432.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好,謝謝主席,薛文好。好,請稍等我一下,我們要先播一段影片。好,先把聲音打開。請稍等我一下。可以嗎?好,可以看字幕啦。可以看,聲音小一點沒有關係,我們看字幕。 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7445.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7468.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這是在一個政論節目上面繼續放好不好不好意思我們主席時間可以停一下我們這個機器上有點問題不然大家就看文字就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7470.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7492.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
先是小草有些當然太陽花了占了整個活動的六成嗯我們用手機下去對畫一個年齡我們用手機下去對畫一個年齡我們用手機下去對畫一個年齡然後才到六成現在小草現在的訊號閉起來喔也不同人喔訊號閉起來喔也不同人喔那這一批人跟上次我們選舉1月13之前的選權之夜的人比對喔也沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7493.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7495.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
好,局長我想先問你有沒有看過這段影片在我播放之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7514.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7531.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
知道這件事情那一家民間的私人公司有沒有可能比較年齡層跟手機的移動甚至這個資料從一月參加了這個等於說總統的競選活動到留存到五月來做比對 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7532.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7554.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這個人流的個資存量超過120天,請問要怎麼來做到?就你們國安局的角度來看。就我國安局的角度先說明一件事情。也就是說政府機關假如要跟電信業者來索取用戶的資訊的話,我們是必須要經過非常嚴謹的法律跟行政的程序。法律程序的部分必須要經過高等法院的同意。 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7554.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7570.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那行政程序的部分必須要經過12道的行政程序的整合才可以來跟電信業者來調閱資料而且目的只能為了司法刑事案件的偵辦或國安的偵辦那至於這個案子的話事實上剛進來之前也有很多媒體記者在外面詢問這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7571.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7598.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那因為案關的當事人我們所知道的話他已經有說明了這是市場分析的公司跟電信業者對於數據分析的一個合作計畫但因為是私人的民間商業的公司的活動那我們國安局就不適合做相關的評論所以私人的公司可以去拿到我們電信系統裡面的去識別化的資料並且在網路上面或者在實體上面販賣這是我們的國家包含我們國安局所允許的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7599.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7616.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我想我們的理解來講應該電信業者他們跟一般的市場分析公司都有相關的一個計畫當然還有可能有一些識別化的行動去識別化的工作請你講話必須要負責任我們來看一下他說的說法我們忘號這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7619.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7639.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這個呢他的說法是說他用了一個手機信令的資料分析方法那這個方法呢包含是新北業誕辰包含是很多的一些我們的活動都可能用這樣子的方法來分析可是這只能分析什麼這只能分析到 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7641.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7653.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
當天的人流以及年齡他沒有辦法比較不同的時間兩個活動的差異而且他是去世別花的局長你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7656.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7675.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這當然要再進一步來確認不同的電信公司它可能有不同的package但是我們所有的電信公司要提供不管給廠商或者給國安單位是不是所有我們民眾要依照那個去取得是不是都要去識別化 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7677.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7693.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
去識別化是一件重要的事情吧在我們的包含是說民間上面的公司也好或者是以國安單位我們的收查也好就當你完成這些程序之後去識別化是有重要性的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7695.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7699.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以我們可以合理的回推在法規跟政府的資料上面電信業者應該不會提供包含是年齡然後他是什麼樣的支持背景參加過哪一個區域的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7717.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7721.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
對我剛才已經有說明過不同的電信業者他們對於手機數據的分析他們提出不同的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7733.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7761.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那每個業者可能的方案都不太一樣那這部分可能要再去詳細的了解一下那委員所提到的相關的狀況不同的業者他們的跟相關的市場或商業分析公司他們所分享的資訊是怎麼樣來分類的可是你們是國安局嘛所以你們應該要了解到就是說我們在這些電信業者他們跟廠商之間的配合有沒有可能流出我們建台民眾的個資甚至是去識別化的個資 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7762.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7770.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這也是屬於國安的一部分因為他們也有可能這樣子的市場他把這些資料如果賣給中共呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7771.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7795.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你不能說今天給王逸川在電視上講可以但是如果資料留給中共呢?國安局有沒有掌握?就國安局來講我們是依照通訊保護器監察法的規範來執行我們相關的業務至於民間的商業行為有沒有可能相關的資訊有涉及到洩漏民眾各自的部分我覺得這一部分通訊業者、電信業者應該還是要遵照我們國家相關的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7796.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7799.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
假如有這種狀況的話我們當然會介入來關注那你們有沒有研究過嗎?在這個議題上你們過去有沒有研究過嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7821.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7840.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這個部分可能也涉及到電信業者他自己本身對於一些法規規範的基礎我關注的是國安局對這件事情類似的事件的發生有沒有研究過以及可能販售到中國大陸或者是其他國家的可能性你們有沒有做過這樣子的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7842.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7862.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
直通信安全的關注本局會予以來重視但是有關於電信業者的管理可能還是要回歸到行政院主管機關不是電視那個部分我會另外去了解但我們今天要問的是國安局有沒有去掌握你剛剛所說的電信業者可能會販售去識別化的資訊給他人 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7864.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7879.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這個他人今天可以是王逸傳明天可以是中國大陸後天可以是美國或其他國家這當然是你國安局應該要列管的業務之一而你們過去有沒有針對這個部分做過研究我剛剛已經說明過了針對我們國內的電信安全所以他們有沒有在賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7883.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7886.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以他們有沒有在賣?所以你們有沒有抓到過?你們有沒有抓到過或你們有沒有警告過? |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7899.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7919.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
有沒有類似這樣子的訊息外流到中國大陸所以套用電信業者基地台定位手機使用者的技術你們有沒有了解過是不是在防疫期間推動的電子智慧威力監控系統而導出的有沒有這種可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7920.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7921.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
最後我要提到一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7935.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7957.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
王逸川的說法是可以比較的是年齡參加的活動甚至時間超過一百多天那請問局長你認為他是在唬爛造謠還是確確有可能有這樣的事實有沒有違法如果有違法的話哪一個單位會把他送涉違法或者是以個資法提告 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7958.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7985.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
對他的講法我們再來了解到底是他個人的一個媒體上的一個吸引注意的說法那還是有實際的已經有涉及到違法的樣態這是我們的注意那如果今天他所說的東西經過你們的調查之後卻有歧視而他在政論節目上直接講出來他擁有一個民主進步黨的政策會執行長擁有我們國家趣事別化的人民的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7986.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8004.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
總統： |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8004.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8018.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
委員的推論但我提醒委員的是這些電信業者他都有電信相關法規必須要遵守假如有向委員提出這個問題的話我們的行政的相關的主管機關一定可以進行裁罰的一定可以進行裁罰但是問題是說因為我們今天問的是你是國安局那你當然你要針對這個事情去調查因為我們不是司法警察機關你們要去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8031.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8059.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
因為今天他可以去賣給我假設是用賣的你剛剛說的他可以去賣給王一川他可以去賣給民進黨那相關的電信業者他能不能夠去賣給中共?能不能?有沒有可能?對,所以我剛剛所提到的假如電信業者有這種違法的狀況的話那當然可以來算所以你們會不會去研究這部分到底是屬實還是假的嗎?各種的樣態我剛剛一開始有提到我們會去針對不同的樣態來做可能的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8059.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8078.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
假如真的有這樣的具體的違法的狀況的話,會不會來授請司法機關的注意?什麼時候會提出評估,到底確認說有沒有電信公司在販賣甚至流出給其他的國家,甚至是我們應該要跟我們敵對的國家,什麼時候?給我一個時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8080.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8080.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
好,謝謝謝偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8112.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8115.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
好 謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台諮詢好 謝謝主席麻煩局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8141.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8158.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
局長早,最近中國的軍演到了一個段落,有一些現象要請教國安局在情報掌握上有沒有一些研析跟判斷。第一個,這個比較奇特,在中國的對台軍演期間, |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8159.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8174.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
那他有一艘4463噸級的聯合起瑞號在東海沉沒那個區域是在他對台軍演的區域外大概在浙江的舟山的東北角這個位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8174.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8193.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那這個拖船是半潛式的,它屬於錠毛拖船,那主要工作是在打撈,或者是拖重型的船隻。那5月24號7點02分,它突然間大轉彎,降速,然後大概花了一個小時的時間,AIS就不見了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8195.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8213.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
國安局對這個事情有沒有一些判斷?對,我們有注意到這件事情。對,一來是時間的敏感性,那二來是他沉默的水域,也正如委員所講的,我們在比對之後,發現是他在演習的區域的外面。那至於事故的原因我們還在了解。這個是屬於資源型傳知,因為這種半層潛勢的船, |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8218.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8246.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
四千多噸當然中國還有軍規更大型的它有它特定的功能那就是在那裡發生這個事情連中國他們自己內部都在議論紛紛所以國安局在情報的掌握上有沒有判斷說這個船袋出了什麼問題對,原因我們還在瞭解原因還在瞭解所以確實沉在那裡是有這個沉船的事件那它這個船沉船之後中國那邊有沒有什麼異常的舉動有,他們有進行一些相關的打撈那事實上在 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8247.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8248.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那這個無人機應該是從船艦上起飛的? |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8270.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8270.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
海底的水文 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8291.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8316.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
地形地貌那個其實都重要的軍事資料所以今天你剛才講的那一架無人機在今天早上掉下來不不不前幾天在演習之前也在演習當中嘛對演習前幾天掉了但我們還是有注意到我們還是有注意到那他們也是把那個區域沒有封鎖他就派海調船到周邊去巡邏把它找出來所以你們現在目前還在判斷到底發生什麼事情對那我問一個更早之前的2023年8月22號 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8320.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8344.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
當時是英國的每日郵報他引述了英國政府資訊當然這個引述是否為真我覺得要查證但當時包含美國包含英國包含一些智庫人說中國一艘093型也就是雙級的核子動力潛艇在他們黃海軍演的時候突然間不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8345.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8361.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
然後呢也在中國內部傳出說一堆家屬說該回港了怎麼沒有休假都沒回來後來他們艦隊的司令也受到懲處當然理由不會用這個當理由當時也有美國的專門測核訊號的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8364.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8383.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
相關的偵察機貼近飛行到那個區域那個是在2023年8月22號中共的黃海軍演這一艘商級的093核子動力潛艇後來一直到現在這件事情都沒有任何新的進度至少我看到的是沒有國安局有沒有去了解這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8385.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8400.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好,老實講有啦,有了解啦。然後,大概的判斷是,應該不是嚴重的沉船事件,但有發生一些事故。因為這艘船,動九山的這艘商級潛艦,它的後續的位置我們都有掌握。 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8401.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8430.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
講到這裡就好了你後面不能講太多不能講太多所以事實上中國對台軍演窮兵獨舞當然讓人家厭惡任何人威脅到我們家園的人我們不會高興的就像我們在住家的時候有人會去擒保權有人會設巡邏箱有人會加護聯防有人會設區巡守隊其實國家跟家園差不多就是我們怕有流氓來威脅我們家所以怎麼提高自我防衛能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8431.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8454.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
怎麼樣提高預警能力然後有狀況的時候有好鄰居可以來幫忙有公權力可以介入中國這樣子的灰色地帶的壓迫或者是軍事威脅從韓國、日本、台灣到呂宋島、菲律賓甚至連澳洲的達爾文港的北邊都有發生類似的情形所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8455.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8476.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這樣子的軍演損人不利己那中國想不開他的事情我們還是要做好這件事情我接下來就教這一次的軍演因為我們今天國防部沒有來那中國動用兵力的狀況也就是說規模科目還有他軍演的強度國安局的評估是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8477.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8500.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
對,我們就兵力規模來看並沒有比2023的聯合力艦或2022八月的培洛西訪台的聯合軍演來的大他這一次有沒有實彈,好像沒有沒有實彈沒有實彈啊對,跟我們說明一下他這一次沒有實彈因為俄羅斯那一次發射11枚有2枚在架上,9枚就掉到日本的EEZ上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8502.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8511.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這次的規模、科目跟強度,我是要聽聽看國安局你們情報單位的分析。兵力規模沒有比較大,範圍有比較廣,因為就裴若曦當時訪台的軍演大概劃了五個所謂的進航區,那這一次是有九個的演訓區。 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8521.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8522.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
中文字幕提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8551.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8576.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
因為它是由東部戰區宣布的規模沒有比較大所以動用的兵力也比較小對,然後也沒有實彈的射擊那演習的天數也比較短它增加的區域大概是外離島反介入、拒止還有一些外離島的部分那它在外離島的部分有沒有什麼樣實質的軍事行動有,主要是動用了海巡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8580.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8603.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
編組編隊有在外離島周邊做一些所謂的執法巡查的動作所以這是比起過去演習比較沒有科目有沒有什麼不一樣科目差不多科目主要還是做聯合封控聯合火力打擊聯合的巨石外軍以及聯合登陸作戰但是在這一次的聯合登陸作戰他投入的這個運作比較小只有在東部有一個比較小規模的操演 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8604.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8631.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以你們判斷起來他這一次的強度、規模、動用、兵力都明顯比以往低就國安局的研判原因是什麼?軍事上的、政治上的你們的研判是什麼?對,謝謝委員提到這個問題就是說在軍事上我們剛剛講到有幾個特點第一個特點是他快速的動員這一次的演習第二個特點是在於他動用了海警船隻的編隊來做相關的演訓那第三個特點我剛才也跟其他委員提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8632.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8652.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
爭議訊息的操作在這兩天非常非常的頻密那這大概是在軍事上恫嚇的一個主要的動作現在從俄烏戰爭也看得出來假錯訊息搞不好比飛彈先行是他會伴隨著這個是Hybrid Warfare這種合作戰我請梁文傑副主委一起上來我待會一併問所以你們的判斷你繼續說 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8653.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8673.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
對,那這大概是這次軍事演習的主要的一個樣態那我們後續會比較關注的是在於這種海上灰色地帶的操作會不會也變成是常態化因為在東海以及在南海那中共的這些海警或公務船隻他確實有這種海上灰色地帶的操作你們政治上的判斷是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8674.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8677.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
所以這一次有稍微比較克制一點感覺上是這樣 對那個梁文傑副主委就是說這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8700.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8720.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那個局長可以先請回啦我最後請教因為我這邊這個網友也整理了中共黨政軍也就是他們的媒體他媒體大概就是一條一條邊啦大概聲量那個聲調都差不多啦剛才循著剛才的問題從他這一次對台軍演的規模科目強度不若以往 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8721.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8732.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
然後我們再看看他的黨政軍官媒的回應陸委會怎麼評估中共在520我們總統交接之後他的反應你們有什麼樣判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8734.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8755.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
他的反應應該是逐步增強的就是說在520當天之後然後當天晚上應該是就由國台辦發言人這邊來發出一個新聞稿那之後就是21號、22號連續的國台辦的新聞稿然後有人民日報的評論、新華社的評論等等然後到23號就開始演習 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8765.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8779.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
你剛才講的逐步增強是指這個區間嗎?520到524嗎?對在後續我們入行的判斷呢?應該是這樣講就是說它的文攻跟武嚇的部分基本上我們看到的是到524之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8782.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8807.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
算是有趨緩的現象那當然今天禮拜三是國台辦的記者會現在正在開那所以又開始做了一些批評但是我們認為現在的這個批評大概就是重複上個禮拜的國台辦大概還是老調重談不過他不批評反而比較奇怪但我剛才從國安局到陸委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8808.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8815.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
聽到了就是認為這一次他後來是趨緩或者用克制這兩個字是你們認為原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8817.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8843.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我想他的這個軍演的目的當然是屬於對他就是從他們理解的這個賴總統的520講話他們是對他從他們的角度來講他們的解讀是認為520的講話是他們不喜歡的那所以試圖要這樣來表示不滿但是因為目前的兩岸局勢他牽涉到非常多的因素所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8845.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8864.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我認為他們是需要在一個可控的狀況之下他要可控我結束我這一段質詢要可控跟國際的安全網絡國際的因素有沒有關係當然有關係兩岸關係從來就是要放在國際的角度去理解的這個問題我們有機會繼續探討但是我覺得這一個區間519、520一直到524還有後續的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8871.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8872.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我們下面請馬文君委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8909.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8910.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
蔡主席蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8921.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8937.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
因為今天有非常多的委員也非常關切就是說在我們這一次在總統就職以後中共的一個軍演其實他到底是什麼樣的目的然後他的作為還有他發展的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8940.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8959.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
因為局長在上一次質詢的時候大概5月1號吧你們曾經提到說520之後從6月到11月是中國例行的軍演的季節進入軍演熱季那國安局他關注的重點是中共會不會藉口進行一些軍事演習來對台灣施壓媒體報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8963.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8988.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
其實也提到新國安團隊曾經在一場內部的簡報當中指出總統就職前後的中共軍演都是在意料之中也都是基本動作那就局長的判斷這一次在520之後的三天就展開的這樣的軍演這是它的例行性的基本動作呢還是突發性的就國安局掌握的狀況是什麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8990.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8996.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
當時在立法院說明的時候我們就稍微強調就中共他對台的這種聯合戰備警訊已經常態化了那這個部分從1月13號到520他可能會不斷地用常態化的聯合戰備警訊來對我們施壓那我當時也提醒了因為從6月到10月甚至11月是他演習的熱季所以下個階段5月這個有沒有掌握到 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9011.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9024.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
五月這個階段我們大概剛也提到從一月十三到五二零我們大概都有推演各種可能的狀況而老實跟我們報告在中共宣布軍演期間事實上他的船艦已經開始動員對軍演那個我們知道因為他六月就有常態性的一些軍事演習這個已經是例行性就跟我們漢光演習一樣可是我要問的是五月二十三號的這一場這個我們事實上有沒有掌握到因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9038.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9058.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
像剛剛您說其實它的兵力沒有比較多可是它的範圍是比較大然後它這一次是用四個軍種陸海空軍還有火箭軍對於我們的壓縮其實是更近了尤其它這一次軍演的那種項目其實對於反介入跟區域戒指 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9062.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9068.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
其實是比較明顯的態勢那我想要請教的是就520以後這個三天我們有沒有掌握?它會發生?你們已經知道了嗎?跟委員說明的是事實上大概在5月的18號左右它的船艦都已經開始在活動了 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9081.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9084.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那這種活動的態勢我們一判就會發現這是有點偽異常的而且慢慢的往台海地區的周邊水域在移動那這我們就發現的真猴了那這樣有兩個問題因為我們在5月18號已經發現它的軍艦其實已經在活動可是其實我們現在每天都有基建在活動可是這個有沒有產生變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9107.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9137.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
對．對 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9137.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9166.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
因為就國軍來講他當然在展演的飛機跟相關的戰備的飛機他是有做任務的分工的而且每天的載空機都有一定的數量在我們當然知道可是當他是演習不是他常態性的就他每天的一個基建的擾台的部分那我們就已經有掌握了我們還做出這樣的一個選擇或者另外我們比較擔心的就是解放軍的動員能力非常強 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9167.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9191.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
因為他在520之後,平常他在6月以後嘛他為什麼這一次沒有掛單很大的一個可能性是因為他非常激動他還沒有來得及去做一個公告因為你如果正常的要實彈的話其實他必須要公告還有他演習的區域範圍所以這一次兩天很重要的他的目的就國安局掌握就局長您的看法為什麼會這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9193.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9221.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
對我們的判斷我跟委員做個說明就是說軍事上他當然是在對我們進行恫嚇但是在政治上我剛剛也跟王定委員在做說明的是他也有做一些必要的這種風險的控管那所以說他並沒有宣布禁航區他並沒有發射實彈假如又宣布禁航區又發射實彈的話那演習規模又比照到當時裴若曦2022年8月訪台的話他所造成國際社會的關注程度會非常非常的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9223.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9226.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
因為2022年佩洛西議長訪台的時候那個已經是拉很長的時間而且他們也做了預告所以他可以去有時間公告我們現在比較擔心的他短短的兩天之內他已經迅速的集結而且很多人根本不知道沒有掌握到因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9241.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9257.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
本來給我們的資訊就包括國安局喔你們當時跟立法院說明的部分其實也都是到6月以後他們的常態的演訊所以這個部分我們必須要關注的是他在這麼短的時間可以這樣做所以他速戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9258.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9260.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個動員的速度加快這我們有在注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9284.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9304.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
所以他為什麼會有這個演習?局長你掌握的是什麼樣的狀況?為什麼會有這個?是因為賴總統的演說嗎?沒有,因為演說的部分,我剛才跟媒體說明,因為演說主要的內容還是在延續到維持台海現狀的相關政策的路線跟基調 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9305.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9329.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那有一些對岸的涉台系統釋放出來賴總統提到中華民國跟中華人民共和國或不隸屬的這個論點事實上也是延續了蔡總統蔡前總統的四大堅持的第二大堅持所以就路線上基調來講沒關係各自的解讀那是雙方面的我現在要說的是可是就這一次解放軍這樣子的一個軍演的一個動作您的觀察還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9330.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9341.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
國安局掌握的一個他的目的到底是什麼他是因為我們的就職演說就是賴總統的就職演說是有觸犯到什麼嗎所以他才有這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9344.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9359.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
對我們判斷是就職演說應該只是一個理由啦那他主要是透過這一次的針對性的軍演來對內做宣傳對外做宣示也就是北京對於台海情勢他有絕對的主導跟掌控權不管是誰在台灣擔任總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9360.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9383.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
所以他的我覺得主要的訊息所以我們還是要因應嘛對不對不管是誰擔任總統過去的八年前其實並沒有這麼危急也沒有兵凶戰危我們現在要提的是27日美國眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾議員其實他也曾經對外說明中國確實有一些紅線必須要小心不要跨越不然將導致一場災難性的戰爭他的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9387.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9416.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們可不可以請教局長在像這樣子因為我們是不為戰不避戰而且我們也不想給解放軍他有跨越紅線的藉口來破壞和平來導致戰爭那可不可以你用比較簡單的接地氣的方式告訴我們全體國人因為這是我們全體國人要去面對跟承擔的所有的戰爭風險而不是外國人今天我們都指望有很多國家可以來協助那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9417.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9424.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我們沒有辦法做判斷可是當第一線面對戰爭風險的是我們全體國人局長你用比較接地氣比較簡單的方法告訴我們所謂的紅線是什麼對我想上次在貴院大會這邊做專題報告的時候也曾經針對這問題比較簡單的就是說美國現在跟中國的高層的交往事實上在進行的是一種紅線外交也就是美國不斷在對中國畫紅線 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9445.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9450.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們不管是國際社會美國或是我們在講的紅線主要的還是要維持台海的現狀台海安全的現狀那這個就是最主要的紅線 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9472.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9475.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
維持台海現狀,因為什麼樣的因素有可能改變?這個紅線是什麼?因為你要把具體講出來。我們的目標是要維持台海現狀,但是假如中共它是透過單邊的或武力式的、斜過性的方式。它單邊有可能用什麼樣的藉口嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9488.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9495.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
對,他有可能用的是這種武力的方式或武力威脅的方式來脅迫我那個我知道了,我說是什麼原因啊?局長你知道我的問題吧?你應該知道所謂的紅線是什麼但我跟委員講一下啦你講不出來不是,中共的所謂的紅線是依照他來定義對,沒關係,他的定義也沒關係因為主動權,剛剛局長也提到主動權在他如果以他的定義,他自己的認知到底什麼是紅線,你讓全體國人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9516.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9535.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
中共所謂的對台政策主要有三個路線基本的基調反突、觸投、反外力介入就是這樣所以就這樣嘛對所以就這個部分在這個紅線上面我們要怎麼樣去拿捏其實也是在我們整個過程尤其現在越來越緊張的情勢之下台海隨時都有面臨很大的風險的情況之下我想整個國安團隊應該要掌握的訊息應該是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9543.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9567.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
而且不要讓我們國人有溫水煮青蛙這樣子的一個心態因為當國際都非常緊張的情況之下只有我們其實還是就全體國人好像還不是那麼在乎這是有很大的風險的那另外剛剛也有委員也有提到我們昨天剛通過的局長先回剛剛那個嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9570.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9590.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這個部分我們請國安單位持續掌握好不好那我再用一點點時間不好意思主席就很多委員其實有提到說像反滲透法剛剛局長也有在回答的時候有提到不要把什麼事情都扣上這麼大的紅帽子 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9591.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9610.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所有的交流今天我們過去為什麼沒有這樣的問題今天如果兩岸可以交流可以有更多的管道其實我們維持和平就有多一個希望不管是透過任何的管道不要把每一個人都先打入賣台 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9611.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9634.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
如果嚴格說起來昨天通過的法案因為大家在擔心的是什麼洩密我們所有的委員中華民國的立法委員其實在整個機密的資料裡面其實他們都是可以看的當你們在做報告的時候只是用機密的形式來報告所以沒有這樣的問題包括你在做調查或者聽證的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9636.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9653.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
在法條裡面定得非常清楚不管是國安、外交、國防如果有屬於機密性質的它還是受到相關的規範所以不要把這個統統套在一起那個可以拿到哪裡拿到習近平的桌子上這是非常可笑的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9653.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9681.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
今天如果有洩密現在要追究的是到底誰把這個機密的資料到底真的有沒有洩露出去這個要查今天如果我們通過了這個調查權到底有沒有包括我們很多的重要的國防裝備包括潛艦如果第一艘的資料已經洩露出去了你後面的七艘還可以照嗎所以要不要查應該把它查清楚可是有沒有人把它洩露給其他不應該知道的除了立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9681.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9709.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
在我們的立法院聽到的或看到的相關資料以外有些人把更深入的資料給了不該給的人給了不該給的像這樣子的可能有利益的團體這個部分國安局也希望你們可以掌握這個部分不要把它套一個大帽子今天如果說你沒有能力去掌握然後什麼都跟這個反送滲透法大家去一趟那你就規定不可以去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9710.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9738.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
你如果說反滲透法要這樣用的話更恐怖還有社會法當初社會法之亂前幾年的時候政府辦了很多無辜的老百姓只要有攻擊到或者什麼用假訊息或者你有什麼攻擊政府的言論就馬上用社會法辦了那不是更恐怖台灣是一個民主自由的國家我們不是口口聲聲這樣說嗎那你可以讓人民陷於這樣的恐懼之中嗎而且隨便就辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9739.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9755.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
常常還是都結果都沒有問題所以就這個部分時間的關係不好意思這部分國安局應該要有一個高度今天如果要我們外面已經充滿危險已經充滿動盪如果內部是由我們自己引發的這樣子的動亂而且還要刻意去把它歸咎給哪一個政黨或哪些人這樣子會造成更大的動亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9767.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9784.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
一句話就是說反滲透的部分對於兩岸正常合法的交流我們都予以尊重沒有意見那可能我們會特別關注的是有任何違反到反滲透法相關的法律要件的部分而且要有具體證據我們就會啟動相關的那當然嘛所以你官員如果在 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9785.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9785.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
謝謝馬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9817.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9817.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
有請國安局的蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9842.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9870.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
謝謝主席,老闆好是,您好那麼請問國安局有沒有派人去參加517、521、524、528的我們周邊外圍的親鳥行動,有沒有?派人沒有,我們沒有介入這種社會的活動,沒有沒有介入?對好奇去看一下也沒有我沒有下達這樣的指示要我們的各單位的同仁去參加這個活動,沒有?沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9871.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9893.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我現在擔心的是說你們說不定有人跑去你不知道而已結果你們的人國安人員他的年紀跟年紀有關係的支持的傾向都被記錄了這個局長你要不要講一下如果國安局有人在裡面資料都這樣子被收 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9894.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9895.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
你有沒有管到取得基地台的登錄信喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9903.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9927.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我剛也跟徐巧新委員有報告過就國安局假如要跟電信業者索取相關的用戶的資料的話必須要遵照通訊保障及監察法的規定要送到高等法院然後要經過12道的行政審查程序才能夠啟動而且目的是為了可能國安或司法刑事案件的偵辦這有一個非常嚴謹的法律程序那麼我們就知道要今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9928.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9945.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
其實一般的檢調系統是有蠻嚴謹的規定但是其中有一個是國安局長可以簽對沒有沒有我簽了之後是要送到高等法院由高等法院來裁示可以啟動才能啟動程序上是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9946.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9947.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
手機定位資訊屬於各自 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9964.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9969.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我們今天的題目就是中國大陸的聯合利建A |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9990.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10009.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
剛才蔡局長講到幾次了針對賴總統的就職演說那我就很好奇兩位長官哪位可以回答蔡英文總統也講過中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬為什麼蔡英文講的沒事賴清德有事是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10013.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10029.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我剛也跟其他委員有兩位委員報告過這件事事實上賴總統的520就職演說他延續的還是維持兩岸現狀的基本價值那中共他可能在台灣的政府換屆他有一個反應的動作所以委員可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10030.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10034.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
上次有嗎?上次馬英九叫蔡英文總統有這樣子嗎?馬上也行嗎?沒有啊!沒有啊!蔡英文老是叫你沒有啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10055.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10063.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
2016、20、20他會講講得更露露骨也沒有啊差在哪裡來副主委你應該知道答案你講一下差在哪裡差在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10066.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10086.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我想每一個總統他用詞用字的方式會不太一樣那但是有一些原則還是相同的比如說賴清德總統他就一開始就講說遵循中華民國憲政體制那這當然就是包括了中華民國憲法徵修條文跟兩岸人民關係條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10088.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10094.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
就是查這裡啦因為蔡英文講處理兩岸關係是根據中華民國憲法Plus兩岸人民關係條例賴清德沒有講這個沒有講兩岸人民關係條例那是在梁文傑補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10105.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10116.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這個我們上個禮拜的記者會就講過了你把它延伸的問題人家你是正式的就職員說這麼久的就職員說兩岸人民會議條例你不把它講出來他如果把這個補進來就沒事情了你了解賴總統嗎?他事後一定會懊惱吧?沒台沒際就是怕說一句你解讀說他有報告事實上他沒有講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10133.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10137.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
公開場合正式的就職演說沒有講兩岸人民關係條例我請問蔡局長是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10139.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10162.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
對,我想我們遵守委員的解讀啦,但我剛剛在提醒委員的,也有其他的解讀,像美國官方的解讀就認為中共這個有點在無端心性啦,並沒有挑釁對岸,但是對岸竟然有這種軍事演習的動作,所以才對中共提出示警,那這是另外一個問題嗎?啊奇怪咧,要美國這樣說,應該它在這個圍起的時候,美國應該去圍中共的這個軍機啊,都沒有看到它的航母在哪裡啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10163.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10164.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
全民絕對反對!全民絕對唾棄! |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10175.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10197.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
臺灣人民對這樣子對臺灣人民是沒有用的只是傷害臺灣人民的感情而已對不對我們不分黨派不需要戴紅帽大家當然會討厭說奇怪了我們家有那些誰人在怕被理對不對喊打喊殺絕對反對嘛但是問題就在於說當家的要想辦法讓旁邊那個人不要動不動來這裡戳我啊可是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10204.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10210.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
對吧,我說過了,好,那這個在新疆副主委,其實老公這樣哈咧哈咧,我都嫉妒了,那新的總統有點退縮了,有硬的硬,越硬,軟的越軟了,開始說,誒,陸生可以來台灣了,對吧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10227.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10243.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
路深來台灣這個是我們一貫的政策我們去年甚至為了歡迎路深我們把這個路深納入健保這個長年以來的問題都解決了所以這個路深的政策其實是蔡總統跟賴總統都是一貫的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10258.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10264.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這個部分我們都會在處理中,處理規劃中,具體的部分要由交通部來回答,但是我必須說 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10274.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10275.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那個蔡局長你認同不認同這時候如果把 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10304.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10317.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
附陸團的禁止令取消掉對於兩岸關係的緩和有幫助委員這問題涉及到兩岸政策跟公安政策陸委會跟交通部的執掌我們尊重相關政府部門的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10320.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10323.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
早上媒體也在問這個問題我們對於各種外國政府機構或民間智庫有關台海情勢的分析我們都有在注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10343.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10360.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那我們本身也跟國安單位跟國防部也透過聯合請假沒有你要講一下絕對不可能你應該講一下鼓勵我們的士氣啊絕對不可能你不能講這個話不可能一個小時就暫停我們不可能對他學者有他的自己的推論我們就尊重他的一個推論最後一小點他5月23號的一個演習你什麼時候知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10365.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10388.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們之前在研判整個態勢就認為他應該會有一些相關的事對,但是那個timing你是說5月20前後會有但是你沒有做到timing他們出動你根本不知道不不不,我剛也在跟馬昭偉做相關的說明他的船艦一有動態的話我們都會掌握這一部分請委員放心但是5月23這一次precise這一天你沒有做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10389.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10392.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我可以跟你們報告,在總統上任的第一次國安首長會議,我們都已經討論相關的情形,日期大概都有掌握到。 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10416.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10421.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
因為今天由美國聯邦眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾率領的訪團特地要來會議室跟委員們做短暫的交流並且合影留念所以我們也邀請我們現在在場的委員還有希望參與的委員可以留在會場稍微等待外賓的抵達 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10439.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10443.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
休息時間除主席台之外不清場請國際事務處的同仁掌握外賓到場以及交流合影的流程外賓離開以後我們就結束休息繼續開會我們現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10477.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10479.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
內事保證 我想說已經打完 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11938.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11939.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
好,我們繼續開會接下來請沈博洋委員上台諮詢好,謝謝主席那有請這個國安局局長,謝謝請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11969.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11991.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好 謝謝主席 森委好好 那我就針對今天的題目就是就職這一個方面來討論一下那就是說根據我們這個在520還沒到之前我們還是很關注中國的這一個灰色地帶作戰那粗略來講還是都是分那幾類嘛一個軍事的 然後呢政治的 然後還有information就是跟資訊有關的還有經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11993.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
12013.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那在之前的這些分析當中這四大類多少還是有一些此消彼長的關係他有時候很少說四管齊下那這一次我們在觀察的時候就有發現幾個比較異樣的地方當然第一個就是在資訊世界裡面對我們來講一開始除了一般的假消息之外我們關心的應該是關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
12016.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
12021.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
關鍵基礎設施對關鍵基礎設施的攻擊看起來是讚,看起來買了一些未爆彈,所以一開始想先問一下局長就是說,我們先就資訊這一塊來講,目前掌握的狀況是如何,能夠講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
12035.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
12054.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這大概資訊的部分有兩部分一個部分是爭議訊息的散播那在演習的這兩天我們確實注意到網路有一些有問題的帳號有刻意的在散播一些爭議訊息那我在剛剛會前也跟媒體朋友有說明過那操作重點放在移美、移軍跟移賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
12055.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
12083.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這是這一波爭議訊息操作的重點那相關的爭議訊息的問題我們有都通報到相關部會來做必要的回應跟處理第二部分是在治安的攻擊方面那攻擊的次數在520當天有稍微增加一點然後520之後有降低到了軍演的523又稍微高一點那但是這些攻擊都沒有達成有效的攻擊侵害的一個成果但是數字上我們有在觀察那個變化趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
12084.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
12112.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
對,那這個也是跟我自己在觀察的現象應該是蠻類似的尤其是資安這一方面那但是剛剛有講過就是說他有兩波嘛一波當然是在520之後然後後來減少後來又再增加那這跟剛剛這個王定宇委員其實也有提到的跟這個後面他還沒有問完就是跟這個人民日報的這個所作所為可能有一點關係就是說他在整體輿論方面520當然對他來講是重要的一個輿論操作但很明顯的過了幾天之後呢這個人民日報 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
12113.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
12139.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
看起來是跟對台鷹派可能是比較類似一點也就是說他發動了新的攻擊那我覺得這一件事情對我們在做國安的研判來講看起來是一個警訊那我先往下看一下其他的方面就是說當然在這邊有一個就是大量的這個跟藝人的表態是有關係的所以他算是本來的統戰網絡那這個應該是今天很多人都已經問過這個我就不多說他有大量的一個散佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
12140.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
12170.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
但是呢就是說除了這一個所謂的用這種台獨工作者這樣的一個方式呢他去形成一個對比一方面有人是支持統一然後去抨擊台獨工作者去貼上一個標籤那我現在比較擔心的事情呢就是在往下這一邊因為藝人呢就我們以前的研究來講他一直以來呢他可能會慢慢一步一步的先跟你講說你是不支持台獨你反對台獨一直到你不反對統一到支持統一他會有一步一步的往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
12170.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
12199.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
但因為藝人是對外的所以他們來講是一個統戰的樣板但因為整個影視的產業鏈不是只有藝人一個人而已它包含背後的這個經紀公司等等之類的還有一些可能比較不喜歡出面的導演所以就是在第二個步驟目前來講他們統戰給予利益對外的這個部分我們是看得見的那對於娛樂產業這個幕後的這些工作者的壓迫的形式看起來有可能今年會變得越來越多那不知道國安單位對這個部分的掌握是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
12200.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
12210.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
謝謝委員提到這個問題但先跟委員說明一下因為以關單位的立場來講我們不適合去評論個別的藝人因為我們的評論會造成他對我們看整體娛樂產業整體的娛樂產業大概壓迫的形式有幾種一種是會請藝人或經濟公司來簽署相關的認同書這包括要認同九個共識一個中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
12221.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12247.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
或是不能夠去批評在展演的過程當中不能夠去批評中國國內的政治的體制或相關的事件這是第一部分那第二部分是會跟經濟公司可能有威脅查稅的相關的一個動作來讓經濟公司要來配合到相關中共政府部門的一些政治上的一個宣傳的操作那第三個部分就是也會針對這些的演唱會的活動以 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12248.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12264.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
公安或安全的理由來管控入場的人數那這部分也會讓策辦活動的相關的公司或單位會承受到一些壓力所以就我們所掌握到的公情或密情的相關可以對外說明的情資大概壓迫的型態有這幾類 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12266.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
12281.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那剛剛有提到第一個是跟演藝活動有關再來跟查稅有關然後跟簽認同書有關那簽認同書這個我們在軍方其實也很常看到他都不只是認同書他也包含投降書所以這邊再拉回來就是說他對台的這些其他的統戰工作譬如說假設今天是學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
12282.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
12307.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
像之前學校有一些會有終身的交換嘛雖然這是教育部在管轄的事情但他們在跟這些中國的這些學校在簽的時候呢他可能也會簽說那我們在交換的同時呢你們的這個中國的學生在我們這邊我們確保我們的教授不會提到法輪功不會提到東突厥斯坦等等之類的但現在很大的一個問題是只要有簽這些東西其實大部分是不對外公開的我們一般人無法得知 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
12308.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
12331.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
演藝工作者在這個方面他的經紀公司簽這個我們也不知道所以變成說就是我在第三個點這邊想要問的事情是說這個事情可能對我們來講變得越來越重要是因為對國人來講或者對新戰來講我們今天要知道哪些人是被威脅的他可能是不得已的哪些人是自願跪上去的這個其實對國人的這個認知是不太一樣的但 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
12333.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12347.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
雖然法律並沒有強制的規定但目前來講中國跟這些人的接觸是不透明的所以我們會搞不清楚到底哪些人被威脅哪些人不是被威脅這種細緻的差別可能需要讓國人知道但不知道在以國安單位的立場來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12349.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12365.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
有沒有可能對法律提供一些建議雖然這是立法委員的責任但是行政單位一直以來都有這一個法案的一個草擬的權利就是說我們有沒有可能讓這些事情更容易的被揭露但是又不會侵害到人權也不會侵害到這個很多人念知在知所謂的兩岸交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12366.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12386.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
對這也是一開始我在回答委員這問題第一時間就在提醒的就是我們不適合針對個案或個人來做一些評論因為會影響他在大陸可能被相關單位來接觸跟施壓就我們來講我們比較能夠來對外說明的還是在於他的一個施壓的一個樣態那也感謝委員我一開始再謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12386.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12412.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
透過這樣的一個提問讓我們來說明一下那可能我們的演藝人員不只演藝人員可能包括了其他藝文工作者或是甚至的企業界到對岸去你要經商求學可能都面臨到這樣的施壓的一個來自於中國政府的一個施壓的一個手法那讓國內的社會能夠了解這樣的狀況那在進行兩岸交流的時候也能夠來示警讓相關單位可以注意到這種中共政治操作的手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12413.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12439.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
因為這個就是我覺得有時候跟我們政戰單位想要去做這個新戰的防護有很高的關係那很希望之後對於政戰這一邊跟國安之間的交流能夠更多不過這個之後我會再來問國防部那我拉回來就是說我們剛剛講就四個層面軍事層面、政治層面政治層面就包含外交、資訊層面、經濟層面那經濟層面我放在最後就是因為很明顯這一次經濟層面是比較少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12440.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12455.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
這跟中國去年一整年以來的作為其實是蠻類似的他們經濟的實力其實是一直在往下掉所以在經濟要做一些制裁啊等等之類的這個是弱化的所以變成來講他的經濟可能會更偏向統戰這一塊譬如說他可能在台灣想要推資金區啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12456.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12471.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
或者說最近在馬祖發這些卡等等之類的藉由一些比較小恩小惠的一些經濟或者跟我們台灣的地方政府去簽訂相關的協定把一個經濟的區域範圍畫出來有可能是相較於以往他們做那種經濟制裁可能會變得更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12472.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12500.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那他這個力道變少之後呢其實照理說在資訊世界是他最沒有成本的相較於外交,因為外交他需要發很多成本嘛那他資訊世界如果他是需要比較低成本的照理說資訊世界的攻擊應該變得更多那因為我們自己民間平常本來就有在做這些資料的分析那第一件事情呢我想問就是剛剛在問的問題其實也是跟這個有關就是這一次不管是假消息的散播等等之類的相較於四年前那一次520比起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12501.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12527.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
國安單位這邊是覺得是比較多還是持平還是反而是變少?就這一次的520就職的期間我剛剛也跟委員所提到了那有注意到社群媒體上有一些比較有問題的帳號或是一次性的帳號有非常頻密的在散佈這些正義訊息那一開始在進入會場也跟媒體朋友說到這一波的操作重點大概有三個主要的面向一個部分是以美 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12527.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12528.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
因為我們這次看到其實外交做得蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12555.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12577.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
軍事當然不用講就是一直以來都是這個樣子所以我軍事可能放在後面所以我一直我現在會認為說在資訊世界本身的一個操作看起來有跟以前不一樣的地方我們自己看是覺得反而有些地方是變少的它比較集中可能跟俄羅斯比較像就是有點這個精準打擊那這個不知道因為畢竟戰略支援部隊最近有產生重組 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12577.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12600.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
重組之後到底誰負責什麼?駭客到底有沒有負責到假消息?還是他們就在隔壁互相分享資訊?還是說他們完全是分開的團隊?現在是非常不明朗的所以我在這邊還是建議就是說可能對於他們這個信息支援部隊跟網路空間部隊尤其是這兩個到底現在誰在主導?然後他主導的節奏是什麼?因為我覺得很明顯跟之前有點不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12601.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12616.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這可能是之後要掌握的那也希望在下一次質詢的時候我們可以針對這一點再往下然後也讓國人知道好謝謝局長謝謝主席謝謝接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席我先請陸委會梁副主委請陸委會梁副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12637.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12651.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
副主委好旅遊觀光業非常關心因為馬上6月份我們又恢復禁團令那現在呢包含旅遊觀光業他們一直在打聽6月份的禁團令有沒有可能取消 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12653.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12667.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
當然有些是很樂觀的但也有些很悲觀的因為現在很多的觀光業都覺得都已經活不下去所以想請問一下副組委就您所了解6月份的禁團令還是繼續的維持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12669.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12696.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
還是在進入倒數之後尤其禮拜五的時候那個院長會到立法院做施政報告有沒有可能6月份的禁團令會有任何的更動我們正在規劃中那具體要由這個交通部來說明會不會有院長來星期五的時候因為正好是5月31號 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12701.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12724.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
馬上6月就到了有可能有可能所以如果由這個院長來說明的話那也代表是有可能做一些調整是不是我們正在規劃中要交通部來說明是好OK好謝謝時間暫停先請那個部主委先回先回座那我請那個蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12729.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12758.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
好,局長,剛才我們美國眾議院的外交事務委員會主席馬克歐剛才也來這邊來做參訪但是呢,因為我們時間非常短,我也不好意思去問他這件事情,但我覺得很重要就是因為在媒體採訪的時候,他特別提出了他說美國對台事務上有一些紅線是不能跨越的 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12759.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12788.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
不然的話即便臺灣沒有挑釁的動作但是也有可能發生戰爭那就我們局長所了解那個所謂的紅線的他所謂的紅線的定義會是什麼對那就我們對美方長期對臺政策的理解他才提到了所謂不能跨越紅線主要重點還是在維持臺海的和平的現狀那不能夠容許透過單邊脅迫式的方式來改變現狀這大概是他們長期政策論述的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12790.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12812.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
你可不可以具體講,那個所謂的紅線的意義是什麼?比如說,像北京方面,他講到一個台灣議題的紅線,我們大致會知道,因為他會有很多的說法。但是呢,我覺得馬克奧他的講法是,直接告訴會有紅線不能夠跨越。所以可不可以有一些具體的,那個所謂的紅線是指的什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12813.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12816.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
所以局長認為我們目前沒有跨越紅線,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12832.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12834.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
在賴總統就職演說後三天,北京是無預警地做環台的軍演。 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12850.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12873.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
接下來他又說在東海會接近三週的實彈射擊訓練我想請問一下包括環台軍演還有現在的宣布要三週實彈射擊的訓練請問一下在這之前美方有沒有通知過台灣說陸方要準備進演 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12875.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12903.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
對 我想在美國國務院的第一次對外的說明他有針對這個問題對外做解釋我也跟委員說明一下他有提到說臺灣跟美國針對中共的軍事的動態都有進行相關的聯合的監控的動作這是美方對外說明那我們尊重這樣的說法那至於委員在關心的是他沿海開始劃設一些禁航區來進行所謂的火炮的試射各位報告的是不只是東海事實上從渤海地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12904.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12914.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
昨天算了一下大概有六七個進行區的畫社那這個比較屬於是季節性的一個火炮四射的演訓對台海的針對性比較沒有那麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12915.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12935.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以你覺得在這個東海的部分、渤海部分並不是從台灣來的,可能是從東北亞而去的。那我還是要很具體的邀請那個局長能夠回答,也就是呢,在那麼我們針對台灣的環台軍演,我們在事先有沒有得到任何的訊息? |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12936.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12949.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
好,這分兩部分,一個部分是態勢上的判斷,在1月13號選後,我們大概就有做一個概括的分析。這是我不是判斷,我是說有沒有得到訊息,有或者沒有。我們判斷歸判斷。對對對,我剛剛講了兩部分,一個部分是整體的判斷,那麻煩我幾秒鐘說明一下。時間快到了。對,就1月13到5月20我們認為會有一些軍事上比較中度的動作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12960.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12989.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那有沒有超過呢?有沒有超過我們原來的判斷?目前看起來還好,好,好,第二面向要講的是還好喔!這個所謂是相對性的,因為我也跟其他委員說明過,比起去年4月的聯合歷艦跟2022年的8月的環台軍演,這一次的規模並沒有比過去來得大。那委員關注的是我們事前到底知不知道,因為只要他們的船艦一有什麼動作,我們都能夠掌握,所以大概從他動員的船艦的數量以及航向的地點,我們可以判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12989.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
13016.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
在他宣布之前我們已經掌握消息了嗎?有有有有有有我們確定有掌握消息那我再請問一下賴總統上任之後有沒有召開過國安會議?有我剛才也跟有國安首長會議有有有好那我請問一下我跟委員報告一下就是在520之後在第一次的總統召開的國安首長會議我們就已經有大概預判了演習的狀況跟時間好那我請問一下在他宣布這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
13018.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
13025.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
軍演聯合軍演就是環台軍演之後我們有沒有召開國安會議那總統的指示是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
13029.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
13057.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那對於整個的軍事的動態因為我們都有非常精準的預判那以及全面資訊的掌握那有針對這個雙方．所以總結來講就是這一次的這個環台軍演就是局長的意思說事前有掌握然後呢發生之後也立即有然後低於我們原來預估的強度是這樣可以這樣解釋嗎沒有大概整個判斷的規模跟我們預先的評估是接近的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
13058.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
13074.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
原來你們判斷規模會就有環台軍演的部分嗎?好那最後一個問題那麼這樣環台軍演未來會不會常態化?對這是我們特別在提醒要關注的因為他這一次的環台軍演的演習的代號是有序號的他是稱為聯合力艦2024A |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
13076.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
13088.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那就我們對共軍的理解他有A你不能排除有後續的B或C就會有B就會有C對所以他有可能會變成是不同的系列的軍演會有不同的演習科目的進行所以我們預期他會有繼續繼續除了A之後還會有B還是變C系列那會不會常態化 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
13095.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
13117.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
環台經驗對台灣來講並不是一個正常的事情是那我們會認為未來會是常態化嗎這也是在書面報告有跟委員提醒的就是說我們確實有在擔心也在關注這樣的趨勢有這樣的擔心有這個concern好 那麼這未來其實對我們的不管是國安或者是我們的國防一線的這些所有的這些國軍地球都是非常非常大的壓力是好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員關心 謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
13123.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
13123.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
紅夢凱委員蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
13144.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
13171.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
好,謝謝主席,鴻文好好,蔡局長我想很多委員都已經關心就是賴總統520就職演說之後那這個中國大陸這邊有做相關的一個因應那其中我們上禮拜有看到媒體有報導是說也有針對北京當局有做可能採取行動做推演而最後軍演是最糟糕的劇本針對這部分有什麼樣的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
13172.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
13175.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
因為就這個匿名的國安人員陳述他有被認為是國安局的一種非正式的表態 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
13201.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
13227.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那但是除了軍事演習以外,國安局當時還預設了陸方有可能有哪些不同的反應?對,就中共的可能對台施壓的動作,一種狀況是他有例行的聯合戰備警巡那這種聯合戰備警巡他會擴大化、擴大版,這是一種樣態那第二種他會在有特殊的水面兵力或空中兵力的邊組到我們的周邊海空域來進行針對性的演習 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
13228.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
13243.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
這次我們所看到的聯合例件2024A就有點像是結合了聯合戰備警訊又結合了有一些海上編隊的聯合演訓所以說算是相對來講是我們有預設但是是比較過激的一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
13243.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
13264.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
沒有,就這要看相對性,假如說你要比起日常的聯合戰備警巡,它規模是比較大一點,兵力集結狀況也比較規模大,那但是你要是再比較到2023年4月的聯合歷艦,還有2022年8月的環台軍演,規模又沒有那麼大,因為這一次並沒有進行那個進航區的劃射,那也沒有進行實彈的演訓。 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
13270.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
13289.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
相對上來講,比起前面兩年的軍演來講,今年的規模沒有特別大。不過局長,我想針對你的專業判斷也秉持你所提出來情報五顏色這樣的一個精神。我可以請教,在這一次賴清德總統他的就職演說,相對於前兩次蔡英文總統的就職演說, |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
13290.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
13303.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
2016 跟 2020 分別有提到中華民國憲法以及兩岸人民關係條例在這一次賴清德總統演說裡面並沒有提到兩岸人民關係條例有沒有激化或是讓兩岸的形勢更加緊張的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
13305.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
13306.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
中共的涉台系統有再提到中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
13334.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13355.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
提出一些質疑,那必須要說明的是這個論述跟過去蔡總統的講話是有一貫性的,因為也是在蔡總統蔡前總統四大堅持裡面的第二大堅持,所以看起來在論述上並沒有做太大的更變,而我們需要注意的是中共的認知,等於是中共即使在蔡總統有釋放善意,以及國內外社會對相關的談話 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13357.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13383.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
整體來講還算肯定的情況之下他還舉行了軍演這就是我們在關注的重點所以剛剛我們才跟委員報告我們判斷是他有點利用這個軍演在對內宣傳也對外宣示不管誰在台灣擔任領導人他都有這個能力來掌控這個局面所以局長其實就你身為一個綜合判斷的幕僚的部分在賴清德總統的這個就職演說講稿事先您理解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13384.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13404.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
您的這個判斷跟方向是事先理解之後您綜合給予賴總統的一個判斷還是看到講稿之後才去做的這樣的一個綜合分析我們給決策者的一個相關的分析會聚焦在整體的態勢特別是中共可能在什麼情況之下會採取什麼行動這種態勢的分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13406.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13427.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
只要由決策者來針對這個態勢分析來決斷他在講稿當中要怎麼樣來論述他的一個內容講稿內容你沒有任何的建議對,就情報單位來講我們並不是總統的幕僚那這有文稿小組會針對相關的狀況來擬稿然後再由決策者來做最後的判斷好 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13428.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13447.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
局長另外一個部分我想請教因為當然這一次這個軍演的狀況也發生那本席也看到就是說在媒體報導我們軍演共軍軍演的這個操演區跟國軍所公布的這個操演區其實落差是有一段的距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13448.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13459.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那尤其是像本席的新北第一選區北海岸超延區居然偏移了60公里以上那60公里以上其實相對來說我們有一些鄉親會覺得說怎麼會有這樣的一個落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13461.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13480.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
能不能說明一下,為什麼會有這樣的過程?好,跟委員說明一下,剛剛事實上陳永康委員也在質詢的時候有稍微提到這個觀點,那他也提出他的觀察,我也很尊重。也就是說中共這一次劃設的,總共有九個啦,有九個的演習區域,那他有標示那個區域的地點,那但是因為他並沒有提供座標。 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13480.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13503.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那在沒有坐標情況之下國防部也針對中共的演習的區域再去做套圖來畫出我們認為他演習區域的可能的確實的地點所以造成因為沒有坐標之下會有些落差但是跟委員說明的那個兩個的圖的差距是在於中共的公佈的演習的區域有涵蓋到我們的24海里的海空域那我們的沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13503.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13512.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那跟委員報告的是在事實上整個軍演操作過程當中共軍的基建並沒有進入到所謂的二次海域這是沒有的這是從演習的實際狀況的狀況而進行沒有進入沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13518.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13545.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
但是在這個部分如果說因為套土的狀況而造成這個落差會不會有導致擦槍走火的可能性會增加對這個部分就必須要透過國安單位跟國軍聯合情監偵的系統來掌握它實際軍事特別是基建他們活動的區域跟範圍局長所以剛剛也提到嘛王宏威委員剛剛也質詢是說未來有可能這樣的一個軍演有常態化的一個趨勢這是您的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13546.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13565.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
如果說每一次的這個狀況都變成是資訊上有落差的話,我們能夠用怎麼樣的一個增進的空間?大概有兩個部分,一個部分當然要去了解中共劃設的這些演習區域的實際的位置以及這些位置可能反映出中共犯台的預案 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13565.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13586.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
他的可能的操作為什麼會選在這個地區這是第一部分那第二部分當然是我們自己在做因應的時候也必須要能夠來掌握實際上中共在畫完之後實際的演習的動作那有沒有依照他的畫色的區域或是有沒有更進一步來侵犯到我們的海空域大概有這兩個主要的觀察的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13587.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13606.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
本期希望是我們掌握的資訊跟狀況都要第一時間而且是要正確的資訊給國人知道而不是粉飾太平或是因為科技的一個不對等或相關的部分而造成資訊的落差這點應該是我們政府部門都應該要遵守以及注意的地方對 謝謝委員提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13612.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13621.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
好謝謝接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請張祺凱委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13643.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13646.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
蔡局長、梁文傑、梁副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13663.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13682.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
賴總統就職演說有特別說到說願意以對話代替對抗特別是兩邊對等之下要重啟兩岸的觀光旅遊跟學衛生來台灣就學那很多媒體都把它解讀是一個地感染之嘛我能不能很清楚的問我們開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13685.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13695.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
理由觀光團到大陸什麼時候會有好消息因為這個涉及到兩岸政策跟觀光政策應該要業管單位包括陸委會跟交通部來回答當然就是好啦那文傑你來文傑你來 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13698.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13723.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我們在考慮這個問題的時候首先要看一下有沒有對面的他到底有沒有要做到對等性然後他到底有沒有善意目前看起來他從23、24號兩天的軍演兩天的軍演如果你要說他們是有善意的話那個對台灣很多人很多人民來說是不能接受的但是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13725.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13750.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
對自己的觀光旅遊業我們有自己的步驟跟考量所以其實這個事情跟對方的善意不善意最後可能沒有關係沒有關係這句話很重要喔跟對方的態度跟善意不見有關係所以我們是按照自己的步驟嘛對不對雯姐包括總統在就職演說這樣講就是本來我們應該有擬定好自己的步驟跟時間表對不對所以我今天非常具體的問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13751.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13778.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
很多人都很期待這幾天好消息也一直傳出來說最近就會定案最近就會開放嗎?差不多時程是怎樣?我們對於不管是對於陸生還是對於觀光我們都有自己的規劃跟時間表所以這個事情其實都在規劃中規劃討論中昨天教育部部長已經把時程講出來了他說每年五月這個招生減傷就有了那觀光旅遊這一塊呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13782.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13801.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
一直在傳說這個月的月底,最晚下個月會有好消息,是這樣嗎?我們規劃討論中,然後會有交通部來跟大家說明規劃討論中,然後是會有好消息,對不對?會有交通部來跟大家說明還沒辦法確定是不是好消息,還是會是好消息,由交通部來公布? |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13805.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13819.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
你說剛剛是講你們已經有規劃嘛事實上你如果從總統的就職演說特別把這個提出來是那講的是陸生這一塊教育部已經講了嘛對不對那顯然就是我們自己有規劃而且是往正面在走了嘛對我們的有自己的有自己的規劃什麼時候有好消息什麼時候有好消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13823.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13846.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
什麼時候?你給我一個時辰,你們本來就有時間表嘛對不對?你剛也提了不用等大陸什麼有善意或者他們的動作啊你剛不是這樣講嗎?我應該是這樣講,很多人把這個這個觀光團或是陸生當作說兩邊有沒有善意但是其實我們這樣一路看下來特別是從520到現在其實對方 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13848.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13854.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我會問你是因為各界一直在有期待而且各界一直傳說最近有好消息所以我才問你嘛是最近會有好消息嘛對不對你講的已經有時間表啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13871.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13889.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
為什麼不能講,你講一下現在所有的觀光業者跟很多民眾在等你的答案我們陸委會是參與規劃討論,但是組織的單位是交通部你要當交通部,你們幫他做了決定,有時間表了,要等交通部來我們沒有幫他們做決定,我們參與討論,一起討論其實腦袋是陸委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13895.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13916.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
很多人在關心還台的這個經驗,其實更加緊張,我覺得對台灣,當然那個租款比較安全,一定要先顧到,裡面我覺得現在挑戰最大,其實是大陸的經濟越飛越近,對不對,越飛越近,它飛到41海里的時候,那時候距離我們總統府大概是4到5分鐘,戰機如果碰到緊急狀況,飛起來要6分鐘, |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13917.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13941.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我們的領空優勢快沒有了,已經不是海峽中間消失了,現在飛到最近的37海里了,對不對?我們怎麼應應這個變局?怎麼確保我們的安全?因為事實上共機腳一離開基地,我們國安跟國防單位都可以知道他們大概飛的一個狀況,所以透過這些聯合的情報監偵都可以掌握他們的動態。 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13950.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13967.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
對,這部分我應該也知道了就我們的國軍不管在水面的兵力或空中的兵力在應處跟中國的這些戰機進階的攔截過程當中都有一套SOP的作業程序而且地面的雷達管制也都非常的精準在防止各種突發狀況的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13969.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13993.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
兩岸最近還有一個非常熱的題目,就是台灣的藝人,最近被逼著要表態,對不對?非常多,五月天在北京鳥巢的演唱會提到說我們是中國人嘛那看起來台灣很多人就開罵了,就開罵了可是到目前為止,因為大陸那些小粉紅一直在逼啊,我們已經有78位藝人已經表態了我看這個賴總統自己也覺得不捨嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13997.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
14021.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
他說:「人在屋簷下,盼國人給予諒解跟體諒。」我剛才柱先生柯文哲也講了他說必須要尊重表演藝術者不要以政治表忠的方式破壞兩岸關係他直接呼籲大陸這些民眾不要逼著我們的藝人來表態這是破壞兩岸關係的可是他也提到,毆忙用地費、行商及包容去面對處理兩岸關係所以我問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
14023.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
14034.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
國安局這邊跟陸委會對於我們的藝人他們做了很多公益嘛像五月天雖然到那邊講那個話可是他們回來你看花蓮的震災包括一檢高雄這個氣爆的時候他們都捐了非常多的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
14036.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
14063.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
對於藝人被爆表的事情,你們怎麼看?管局這邊先說明,等下請陸委會說明就藝人遭到施壓的問題,剛剛也跟沈博洋委員有做一些說明大概中共操作的手法跟施壓的狀況有的是查稅的,有的是要簽認同書的那有的是管制他人員進出演唱會的數量那以這個來施壓那我想對於台灣的藝文工作者,包括演藝人員來講他就面臨到一個兩難 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
14064.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
14091.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
就是說你沒有表態好像就在當地你就必須要遭到政治的打壓但一表態又傷害到臺灣粉絲或民眾的情感所以確實非常兩難那我們會認為說可能國內對於中共這種施壓的動作應該給予強烈的譴責那來讓中共知道它這樣的統戰操作會造成反效果不要再對我們藝人施壓可是來我問一下文杰那請就說嘛人在屋簷下對不對要諒解跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
14092.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
14093.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
你怎麼看這個事情? |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
14122.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
14151.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
中央電視台是屬於中宣部的下屬單位所以這一次的操作大概就是我覺得是由中共中央由上而下發動那所以其實大家都看出來背後的政治操作很明顯那所以我們要譴責的其實就是對岸的這種政治體制那這也是為什麼兩岸關係到現在還是僵局的狀況雖然對岸說政治制度不同不代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
14152.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
14152.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
接下來請林一錦委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
14186.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
14194.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長陸委會梁副主委請蔡局長還有梁副主委好謝謝主席林委員好局長好副主委好沈博焱委員所提的兩岸人民關係條例的修正草案遭藍白聯手封殺那院會被退回一次在程序委員會也被擋了三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
14214.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
14225.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那藍白連討論都不讓我們討論那當然我不曉得他們在害怕什麼那所以既然他不讓我們討論那我就本席藉在這個質詢的機會就來檢視一下這個法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
14230.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
14231.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
首先我們來看第九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
14247.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
14269.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
既然中國對台灣的威脅那麼的具體那就要請問局長跟副主委是否認同立委的身份特殊除了有機會接觸國家機密而且有權左右施政方向那他如果非得在任期期間要去中國那有必要經過內政部會同國安局法務部入委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
14273.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
14303.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
或者是相關的機關來審查許可嗎另外另外再請教一下是否認同說如果立委跟中國的黨務或者軍事又或者是政治性的機關或者涉及一些對台政治人物的工作或者團體有所接觸那我想這個應該要申報這個接觸時的往來情形跟內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
14305.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
14319.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這兩個問題請先回答我想國安局這邊先簡單說明一下國安單位的立場再請梁副主委來做補充就我們政府機關來講就像委員所提出來的依照兩岸人民關係條例的第九條以及國家機密保護法的第26條 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
14320.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
14332.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那要到對岸區都應該要有一個報備的動作那特別是假如是直轄市長涉及到國安機密的或地方的縣市首長或是有承包政府的科技研究計畫的到對岸區還要再經過聯席會議的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
14335.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
14336.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那副主委也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
14364.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
14386.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
其實從我們陸委會的立場九條之一本來就有包括立法院本來就有包括立法院那但是長久以來立法院並沒有按照兩岸人民條例的第九條之一提列提列需要附入審查的人員所以如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
14388.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
14408.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
可以把這個定的更明確化的話我覺得並不是不好因為譬如說我們現在在審查很多譬如說縣市長然後縣市長下面的局處長他顯然在我們看來其實局處長這些不太會接觸到 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
14409.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
14410.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
14428.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
14442.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
藍白立委昨天也才剛通過這個濫權用黑槍濫權的這個手段來通過這個國會擴權惡法所以現在權力是集中在立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
14443.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
14457.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
我們無法期待這個永全者能自治所以絕對的權力會導致絕對的腐化所以我們一定有相應的監督機制所以就如同您剛所的兩位所說的都認同這個立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
14459.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
14479.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
去中國特別是有這個機密的這個一定是要有一些報備或者一些申報的機制那可是有人說現行的兩岸人民關係條例裡面對於立委到中國就足夠規範當然這個主張就是根據現行第九條第四項的第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
14480.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
14504.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那可是上個月底傅坤祺率團傅忠那又是接受哪一條法律又是接受哪一個條文的規範那還想請教是說那針對沈博洋委員所提的這個國安法案陸委會未來他會提出你們會提出對岸嗎或者是說針對這個立法委員跟中國的關係陸委會又有什麼實質的監管的機制啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
14508.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14518.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我必須再說一次兩岸人民關係條例所說的附入申報這個附入審查的部分本來就有包括立法院只是立法院從來不執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14521.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14547.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
從來不執行,我們也來文過貴院但是貴院也沒有回覆,也從來沒有回覆所以勢必透過修法的方式對,如果要把它訂得更清楚,我們是贊同的我現在補充一下,監察院根據兩岸人民關係條例他是提報26人,政務人員16人,連離退職未滿3年都有管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14549.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14574.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
檢察院是這樣的各級地方法院也有因為法官他可能會審查到跟國安有關的案件只要他有審理到跟國安有關的案件包括書記官包括下面的人員等等都要提列同樣都是根據兩岸人民關係條例以及國家機密保護法所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14576.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14580.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
中華民國各個機關都有做除了立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14584.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14607.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
假設您那麼認同現在的現行法雖然是應該可以可是問題是都沒有在執行那如果要修法了更精確一點那是不是除了沈伯陽委員因為我們現在都被擋掉那當然陸委會如果說有這樣的態度的話是不是要提出對案 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14612.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14631.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我們對於沈博洋委員所提出的法案我們是樂見往這個方向目前的態度是這樣好那最後一點時間就是說還是要請教兩位就是說藍白兩黨透過這個濫權的關係透過這個國會的擴權法那針對我國的國安跟台灣跟中國間的關係就兩位的專業評估各自最擔心的負面影響在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14641.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14642.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
呃 局長先好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14645.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
14671.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
剛剛有幾位委員在關切這個問題就是說到時候因為我們依照國家機密保護法行政單位在和密的部分有一個非常明確的一個規範跟程序那到時候可能到大院來這邊那怎麼樣來針對這些相關的報告事項的內容的一個涉密的程度來做一些相關的一個管制或是出席人員的一個規範那這個會是我們後續跟大院來進行討論的重點剛剛也跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
14673.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14681.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
馬昭偉有針對這部分有一些相關的對話好那副主委要補充嗎OK好謝謝謝主席好謝謝接下來請羅志強委員羅志強羅志強委員不在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請邱志偉邱志偉邱志偉委員不在請吳思堯吳思堯吳思堯委員不在請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在我們今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14703.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14732.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由林益君委員、楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩周內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩周內提供委員令約定期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14733.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14733.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
散會謝謝 |