| IVOD_ID |
159477 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159477 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-19-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-20T12:22:53+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-20T12:35:36+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:43 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb041a66f826fb5b4dc56c3f89dc79e7a256c2779210393a15196fa539d5614b54a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:22:53 - 12:35:36 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月19日及20日二天一次會】） |
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謝謝主席 有請國務部長國務部長在正式主席只有今天的主席之前 我想請教你 你支持企業造假嗎你直接回答 |
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我怎麼可能支持企業造假那我把企業造假這幾個字丟在Google裡面我們可以看到很多東西檢驗公司勾結營造商驗收造假台塑集團造假空污數據檢測公司檢驗血產品造假甚至部長您也被指稱說財報造假所以我現在請教部長您現在是在經濟部長這個位置您再問一次您支持企業造假嗎 |
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您說您支持協造假嗎報告委員我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛部長這是2019年8月報導者的系列報導reporter環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的這個工廠更容易被政府這個處罰你看過這個報導嗎你看過你知道為什麼會這樣嗎排放污染工廠 |
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80.729 |
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環境檢測機構前者比較容易被處罰你知道為什麼嗎部長你知道為什麼嗎我是建議你去看這個報告你知道為什麼嗎這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍這是個概念部長環境檢測機構因為他受業者委託嘛拿人的手軟吃人的嘴軟嘛所以他會去幫業者去美化 |
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102.588 |
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這個污染數據躲避政府的稽查結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞布那所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所他們去稽查的時候很多檢查機構檢測機構都被處罰了為什麼業界會這樣呢普遍存在業界我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假要負起最大的責任我先請問部長假設 |
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國營事業造假你會徹查嗎假設的問題假設如果有人作假你會去徹查嗎我回答委員的問題如果是事實 |
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我支持你的這個檢舉 但是假設的問題 我不允許評論我們不能夠在這個地方討論這個假設的問題如果委員你認為他有造假 他是個事實 請你去告他嘛我問你的國營事業造假 你辦不辦 |
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我這是依法辦理啊上週五好不要批了上週五我在總質詢公開向左院長揭發台電協和電廠市街突然污染造假你當時也在備詢台上請問你後來有去了解這件事嗎 |
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184.226 |
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188.15 |
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左院黨答應我做行政調查你後來有去了解這件事嗎你後來有去了解這件事嗎我們當然有去了解嘛好 你有去了解 你沒有藐視國會簡報上是2019、2012、2022內部的 |
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200.922 |
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230.011 |
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台電內部的土壤這個調查報告我手上有好幾份同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染但台電都對外隱瞞其中有一份我在環評開會2月26號的前一天我新聞我新聞到這個我新聞到環境部那當然環境部都還沒有大大剌剌的這個碾壓過去這是他們要負責的部分但是我請教你你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
231.189 |
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252.07 |
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報告委員我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告好嗎現在我只要問你我在總諮詢都提出這幾份報告而且是新的2019、2022我們台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嗎部長不然你想想看我下面這個部分好台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
254.472 |
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255.513 |
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您的簡報是顧問公司的不是我們台電接受的這是接避者給我的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
275.455 |
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283.198 |
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這個台電利用所謂的自主調查它在正式的環評調查 自己先先偷做了現在我再看一個資料請你尊重我的發言權就是說12月的時候正式要做環評的檢測但是在9月就偷做了先自己所謂的你的自主性調查所以你們知道結果了在11月的時候你們內部的工作會議上面寫的什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
304.562 |
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314.748 |
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超標濃度不高的你就翻土的方法處理翻一翻稀釋掉沒事好最嚴重的是下一個你已經知道很多污染點你採過59個點位也採樣過160幾個點位發現有污染的位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測天吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
327.301 |
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353.712 |
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天啊報告委員你是不是讓委員到你的辦公室給你做一個比較事實的給你報告因為很多的人其實他提出來給你的資料可能不過那麼詳實我們讓我們自己的單位跟你直接報告直接反映你的問題但是委員你都不接受我們的事實報告那你一直用你這個別人給你的資料不見得是正確的那你可以提來 |
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354.452 |
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365.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我必須監督行政單位你看最後環評得到什麼資料所以我們已經有事實要跟你報告我已經告訴你2019、2012、2022我也找到內部的資料告訴我們你們處理了好 這一副資料是最後你們看到的資料這個你們最後看到什麼ND用一個點 一個點位採測 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
376.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
386.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個是根據他的法律的規定 我們這樣子做嘛我們是依法行事 報告委員 我們是依法行事所以你不能夠這樣子 你能不能看看TPH就是這個污染指標 重金屬 氮二辛 超標原動 灌紅色的字紅色的就是超標喔 大家在場大家都會看好 繼續看 你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
400.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
406.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個總時有天津化合物多入連本上一頁有多入連本逆都是超標的紅色好 再下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
408.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
431.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個重金屬都是超標的這個都是你們的報告你們的報告這一份最後一頁部長這一部也是你們內部報告第三章污染污染細部調查結果你看倒數第二行還有多鹿連本都出現了在這剛剛我在第一頁的時候有告訴你多鹿連本有那麼毒的四季就多鹿連本都出現了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
433.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
452.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
結果呢 協和電廠台電他的決定不是好好整治這個東西在規避 規避這個資料我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的地方到你的辦公室跟你做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
453.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
470.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們來做行政調查 我們要求全面的報告但是你在這個地方指責我們的東西好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異跟事實有很大的差異在這裡我要跟您報告您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
472.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
474.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
部長核心資料沒有給第六章空缺直接開會開會的時候環評是17比0通過環評法有環評法的程序又來了你說土屋法我告訴你第17條第二項很清楚你這個土屋法要開 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
489.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
495.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
要進行土地再利用的時候有一些限制凡是受到這個環評法規定有害明明就是扣連的明明就是扣連的法規不然為什麼世界環評委員要求看土壤的這個偵測報告為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看如果不重要為什麼世界開發案要求看環評委員要求看資料結果你們隱瞞 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
517.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
526.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
是經濟部自己要求這樣做 還是台電自己做的我歡迎你到這個法院去提告這個是公開的事情是 歡迎你到法院去提告嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
527.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
550.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好不好 我跟你講說我們是事實要跟你報告你不接受那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我 我用虛無的東西部長你講話小心喔這是你們內部揭秘者 我們民眾團體所揭秘的保護法現在已經順利喔 你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實啊我要跟你報告事實 你不接受那我怎麼 部長你的事實 我給的是證據我給的是書面報告 我給的是數字檢查我給的是檢驗數字 我有日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
557.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
578.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你現在索賠說你有指控我這個是假的嗎不是我建議你如果你認為他是事實嘛我建議你到法院去提報我們來做行政辦你現在就要訴訟法我們要做行政調查卓院長已經親口在總執行答應我做這個行政調查你敢配合嗎我們當然配合好那我現在要求那個市街開發案的現場封閉不動我懷疑台電現在就在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
584.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
600.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他敢翻土他敢疑點他現在在處理中先封閉可以嗎封閉現場不動不要讓他有機會作弊可以嗎這小事啊報告委員可以吧可以吧我們都不需要依現在的法令行事我就是跟你談法我跟你談土無法我跟你談環評法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
603.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
608.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
可以吧 你可以答應這件事吧現場開發案先封閉起來就跟命案一樣先封閉起來你就算做一個這麼大的開發案 你要讓人民服氣嘛這個資料是新發現資料 被隱藏的資料嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
618.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
630.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你講得非常正確所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所做的事情在處理好那先把這個場地封閉起來可以嗎讓他沒有機會作弊我們不能夠去封閉場地我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
634.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
656.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
有問題我們有新市政啊不是 你要取 我可以依循的法給我做啊這是行政 行政這個根本不用依法你們暫停 因為有問題暫停不要讓排電人員進去這個不用動到法律麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我我一定依據你所提出來的我來做嘛你從頭到尾都在講空話 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
660.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
682.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
不要 我沒有那個意思喔 我只是說請你告訴我們我們應該怎麼走但是必須要有法令的依據嘛是不是我們一直都是依法在行事嘛我就告訴你土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
688.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
700.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
陳超市委員不好意思部長今天我今天開記者會你們台電不敢來經濟部不敢來環保局環保環境部來了為什麼歸縮不敢出現敢做不敢當敢做不敢當 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
702.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
721.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
不敢來啊不敢參加記者會啊不敢來啊不願意嗎不害怕嗎不敢嗎沒有這種規定說來就是敢來不敢來然後我想這個這個討論好像超過一般的大家的認知結果你們不出現現在你跟我說要依法我就是要告訴你法令啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
721.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
735.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好 那如果說你可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合去我們就會依法行事啦法令 依法人員的職責就可以監督行政機關啊這個法令就一直都存在啊部長 不要藐視國會 不要講空話我不可能藐視國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
743.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
754.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們也不會藐視國會我們都是在法令的法的基礎之下行事我們一定在法的基礎之下行事我們也不會藐視國會也不敢藐視國會 |