| IVOD_ID |
159444 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159444 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-20T10:35:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-20T10:51:14+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb090ac475bf4636ba64aa23c349ee8e693525a0be0b44ec4a3048316b8811dac4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:35:15 - 10:51:14 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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翁小玲委員咨詢完以後我們先休息五分鐘很高興今天聽到主席稱讚我實不敢當立法院美麗又有智慧的女委員非常多我可能還稱不上不過接下來要請任市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
22.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.015 |
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請人事長不要騙他來的洗禮委員長 你好我看早晚也是實話實說吧是 現在人事長這樣一說害我都不好意思接下來要怎麼問您問題了好 那首先我想就是接續的剛剛王一川委員的問題就是到底公務人員去大陸人事總署之前有沒有規定相關的SOP程序有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
52.048 |
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74.909 |
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離開台灣的這個遊戲規則是在內政部移民署上有一些相關規定那我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考任市長我剛剛很快的google了一下其實你們人事總書之前就有做過那個PPT啦簡報宣導的什麼公務人員赴大陸偏分成11值等以上跟11值等以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
77.197 |
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103.095 |
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對,十一值等以上嘛,受到比較嚴...十值等以上也沒關係,十值等以上就受到比較嚴格的管制十值等以下就比較沒有,就是一般的報備就可以了那現在關鍵點就是說,到底請假,就是利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備?只要去大陸,不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
103.68 |
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109.425 |
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都要申請報備嘛基本上報備的這個概念所以這個是現在就有的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
110.857 |
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對 那剛剛王議員 王玉川委員他問的這樣的問題顯然是好像沒有做功課所以實際上我們都有在座了我不知道是不是現在已經是有人就違反相關的規定那麼如果說陸委會 移民署或是相關的機關有查到公務人員沒有報備沒有經過許可就去大陸那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講否則的話我覺得這樣刁難任市長我覺得並不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
139.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
160.619 |
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好那接下來我也想請教的這個問題就是人事長您有注意到在3月17號警察院他有做了一個報告就說現在他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官然後之後又再 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
161.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
180.493 |
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復回去擔任政務官的這樣子的一個情況屢見不鮮而在近期他們有發現就是在監察院的報告裡面有發現大概累積地方政府還有地方政府的案例大概有11件 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
181.914 |
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197.779 |
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相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任成務文官再回任到原來的政務職務請問任市長為什麼會有這樣的問題出現我跟委員報告事實上他們這樣操作是 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
200.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
217.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
符合規定的啦符合規定只是說他這一種轉換的時間太短因為像舉一個例子啦像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了那有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11隻等 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
218.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
243.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
他現在當政務官嘛那如果明年年底之後他那個縣市長下來以後這個級數首長沒有繼續留任他只能夠領到11職等啊為了等於退休以後對這些常任文官轉政務官的給他比較好的一些待遇他們會去做轉換的動作但是說這個時間太長大家觀感不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
248.615 |
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261.132 |
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你如果有半年或者一年大家是覺得還比較OK因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉了大家的那種觀感一定是不好的市長您很清楚這樣的問題而且這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
264.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
291.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
優秀的事務官去借調去當政務官之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量那政務官又短暫的離開之後又回到事務官或是又再聘這個政務官這涉及到就是公務員他本身的敘心的問題他的資歷年資甚至有些退休公務員已經借齡退休像這個去年防務部次長陳明堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
293.2 |
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313.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
就是這樣的一個例子嘛因為他已經要借齡退休了那他又必須要辭職 辭職之後又回去當事務官然後11天之後又再被聘為次長歷史這個問題已經長期都存在在我們的公務體系人事總長這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
316.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
343.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我認為說你們也失職應該要想辦法去解決這個問題明明就是從多年來這個案例屢見不鮮而且我們現在沒有修法或是人事總處這裡沒有態度要透過怎麼樣行政解釋去讓這些事務官們可以很順利的也銜接他們的年資或他們的續薪等級不要說一定要回到原單位才退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
345.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
364.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我想我這裡大概可以承諾委員我們再來跟前序部來討論看這個事情要如何比較圓滿的來解決因為事實上現在我理解的就有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官可是他的職等就是十一職等 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
365.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
392.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
他在那個機關服務五到六年你看這樣的一個年資對之前他們到地方政府服務的對他們來講是相對不公平好OK那接下來我還要進入到另外一個話題就是剛剛其實有些委員有在問了就軍公教條新法制化那麼也知道就是人事總處這裡已經提出了軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那麼本席其實已經將 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
394.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
417.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
人事長這邊所提出的這個條例草案有拜讀過你們大概訂定了有七條那裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的在這邊請教你們這次將在這個條例草案裡面有一個部分就是要未來要成立一個軍公教人員的年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議可是在你們諮詢會議裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
420.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
444.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分譬如說除了人事總長您還有副人事長之外中央機關代表七人地方機關代表四人現職公教人員代表四人專家學者四人就這樣子的一個規劃本席好奇的是你地方機關代表四人你怎麼產生現職公教人員代表四人你怎麼產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
448.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
477.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們現在地方機關我們有22個縣市對 我們會 報告委員我們那個地方政府的部分我們會輪流就是說比如說直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別就是每一屆的委員所以22個縣市你要輪流幾次才會輪到目前都是用目前中央教代理審議委員會也是這種機制就是說地方所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
479.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
485.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪不會不會像現在桃園跟台東關我們會有直轄市還有一般的16個縣市的像台東的還有桃園的我們一般來講我們會注意到這個橫平性 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
502.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
520.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
是啦我要提醒你們就說是這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理而且是由你們人事總署自己去指定哪些地方機關可以去推派代表除此之外現職公教人員代表四人我們現在台灣有多少的公務員有多少的公教人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
549.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
然後你要怎麼樣去領選這四位公教人員報告委員我們那個縣職公教人員代表是由那個全國工人協會跟中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人因為他們都屬於全國性的一個協會一個團體所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與那你如果是這樣的話應該是說是不是就應該是說是由這個公教人員的相關組織來推派 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
553.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
557.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
坦白說這公務人員協會它是公會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
559.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
585.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
他是協會嘛 他不是工會嘛剛剛羅志強委員有講我們現在台灣是一個有全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長我這邊要跟任市長講台灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的尤其是公務人員到現在為止全世界沒有公務人員 工會的就只有台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
588.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
604.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
大部分國家都沒有 如果有的話大概英國有而已美國自由之家社就已經說了全世界唯一沒有公務人員公會的國家就是中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
609.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
622.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
連現在對岸中國大陸他們都有公務人員工會但是我們沒有所以這個就是一個很嚴重的問題啊我們公務人員不能組工會以至於政府要我們簽拒絕簽這個忠誠切結書我們就得簽會不會是定義翻譯的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
630.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
653.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
他不是公會而是協會政府機關我們公務人員都有協會法尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些換官我要說的是我們總是要向西方新進國家學習請您告訴我日本韓國歐盟這些國家美國有哪些國家是沒有公務人員公會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
654.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
679.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們會後提供給委員我們手上有資料市長你覺得公務人員該不該有工會我個人是覺得現在公務人員協會法你支持公務人員有工會我是支持公務人員協會對於工會的話因為我們還有一些疑慮而且公務人員的公會本身他是公務人員你今天在政府機關服務是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
680.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
705.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
按照那個法律的國家法律的義務責任跟一般的工會他的規定不一樣請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎他不需要遵守現行的教官法律嗎用的法律不一樣用的法律不同啊教師要遵守教師法公務人員要遵守公務人員法就公務人員來講他的雇主就是國家就是政府我講白一點啦我如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
706.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
729.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我要主公會他的訴求就是要罷工嗎民眾對政府公務人員的罷工大家支持嗎這個問題我覺得是核心的問題要先討論如果民眾對公務人員罷工這個議題有意見的話我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員缺口裡面來進行其實任市長我覺得您的觀念是落伍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
730.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
756.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
產住資工會不是只有罷工包含勞資協商包含權益的福利等等這些都可以現在協會基本上它這個功效不彰而且如果你認為協會就有為什麼不能夠直接就是定在工會法裡面啊你要弄了一個特別的公務人員協會所以這個就是一個根本的觀念我們現在已經進入到21世紀 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
759.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
779.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們台灣應該要像我們在尤其是在公務員的體制法制方面要向先進國家學習否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死管死死不會喔所以是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
781.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
800.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以任市長你不知道最近因為這個你們也配合陸委會要求大家要填公教人員要填這個忠誠切結書這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎非常少數為什麼不改 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
806.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
833.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是 我同意你這句話對國家忠誠問題沒有打折的空間所以到底現在我們的政府是抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法 違反反滲透法的填這樣的忠誠切結書就能夠表示不是用抓的啦我沒有我們不是用抓的我們是鼓勵大家要誠實去申報啦因為我們政府就是靠誠實申報 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
834.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
862.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
是誠實申報 你的誠實申報辦你就定在法律裡面啊現在相關規定已經有了相關規定有規定在哪裡有規定在哪裡兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊所以我的意思是講說這個其實就是涉及到任市長您對於公教人員的地位權益尊嚴的一個態度一個觀念想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
864.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
892.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我現在我完全支持我們政府如果說有查到任何的公務人員違反兩岸關係條例違反反滲透法、國安法或是國家經濟保護法要嚴懲但是這是屬於政府機關自己要依法行政依職權去調查而不是叫大家全部都來簽竊結書現在我還只是針對公教人員現在已經擴大到所有的國營事業那下一個階段呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
893.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
916.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
是不是所有的企業勞工全部大家都要填最後是每個人以後都要自己申報都要填這個調查書我跟委員報告一件事情這就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護的相關的先告那個觀念一樣不要把它變成一個汙名化它就是我你就是來碰碰的這樣你也沒有我沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
917.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
938.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我不是說要汙名化我現在意思是講說任市長你要從根本的怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴權益這個角度去出發就像我說的99.9%的公教人員都會填但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
939.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
953.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他們就是匪諜嗎?他們就是中共同步人嗎?不想舔的人他可以不舔而且也沒有罰則目前的遊戲規則就是這樣謝謝翁小林委員給你雙方都很完整的論述跟回答謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘 |