| IVOD_ID |
15943 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15943 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
25 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-23T08:30:23+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-23T12:58:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:27:37 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc6cf3c1b5b9bab9d48370c866c44090673be8d109af184be432c52d4cdd733cf85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。
二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。
三、併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。
（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。
【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:23 - 12:58:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1805.476 |
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1810.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會出席委員9人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上市婚姻議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1818.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1835.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由（時間中華民國113年5月22日星期三上午9時至12時12分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席為黃委員國昌等13人列席為林委員德福等9人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1836.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1857.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
列席官員法務部部長鄭明謙等人主席中召集委員嘉賓報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二、邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況並備質詢本次會由委員黃國昌等15人提出質詢委員翁曉琳等2人提出書面質詢決定一、報告及詢答完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1858.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1882.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
二委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會通過臨時提案一項。宣讀完畢請問各位上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏?沒有?那我們議事錄確定接下來介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員先介紹道場委員首先介紹省委員發會吳委員私謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1887.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1906.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
謝委員凍結謝謝接著介紹應邀列席官員立法院周萬蘭秘書長歡迎行政院人事行政總處副人事長懷旭副人事長歡迎您法務部徐錫祥政務次長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1907.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1935.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那麼其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次議審除報告事項分別處理立法院主管預算解凍書面報告4案及行政院人事行政總處主管預算解凍書面報告1案外另有併案審查、行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案等4案那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1937.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1960.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那會議進行程序先進行提案說明及報告由法案提案委員先進行提案說明接續請機關代表就預算解凍案預算解凍法案分別進行報告機關報告後進行綜合詢答那麼詢答完畢後再按照議程報告事項及討論事項依序逐案處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1961.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1982.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好現在先進行提案說明及報告進行提案說明發言時間3分鐘那麼請提案委員郭委員郭文進行提案說明郭委員郭文郭國文委員不在好請提案人台灣民眾黨代表黃委員33進行提案說明請 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1991.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1997.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
謝謝主席還有各位同仁以及在場的所有官員我想洗錢防制法的立法在 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1999.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2028.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
大家都非常關心所謂的詐騙案猖獗的現代所以台灣民眾黨提出的洗錢防制法有以下三個特色第一個我們應該擴大滿足洗錢防制制度的業別強化虛擬資產業還有第三方支付業的登記制度因為他們現在幾乎叫做無人可管要授權主管機關建立洗錢防制的資訊交換平台並且加強洗錢防制的資訊交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2029.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2048.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
首先在這個版本裏面我們希望能夠強化對於虛擬資產業者還有第三方支付業者目前的登記制度在設計上面我們完善洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記制度目前我們將業者針對境內跟境外都做了區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2049.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2068.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
對於境內的業者如果沒有進行洗錢防制登記就進行廣告或相關業務招攬就必須要給他一定的行政法連續三次違規以上就有刑罰那沒有完成登記就在我們營業的境內的業者我們第一次就給他罰款第二次開始就有刑罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2069.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2083.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
繼外的業者同樣需要辦理登記才可以在國內進行廣告或營業同樣的第一次被主管機關查獲主管機關必須公告名單並要求辦理登記第二次開始我們就要讓主管機關可以限制他的瀏覽 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2085.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2108.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
同時為了加強洗錢防制資訊的交換讓前端的金融業者跟後端的減緊掉能夠有最快速的資訊交換平台我們希望在法條裡面要求法務部建立一個統一的平台讓行防法所有對於客戶有確認身份管制賬戶要求的機構可以都有一個統一的平台以及跟其他機構跟減緊交換資訊的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2111.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2128.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
希望這個平台是由政府來建置讓資訊不再繼續是用傳真或者是業者跟機關的窗口之間的E-mail或Line來傳達而是有個國家級的平台可以用來交換資訊不管是凍結或者管制賬戶都能更快更準確 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2129.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2144.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以希望透過此次洗錢防制法修正強化國內金融機構對於洗錢防制制度的建立還要對於虛擬資產第三方支付有登記監管制度確保我國在打擊詐欺政策上面能夠更有效的執行以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2150.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2160.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
黃委員現在請機關代表報告時間3分鐘首先進行預算解凍書面報告案請口頭報告請立法院周秘書長報告主席各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2168.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2185.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
今天應邀致貴委員會就本院主管113年度預算凍結項目提出報告,深感榮幸。有關本院主管113年度預算凍結項目之書面報告,均已於本年3月底前含送立法院在案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2187.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2215.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
各預算凍結項目之辦理情形、詳盧復建、貶怨稅數預算之編類均系為建立優質立委問政環境提升委員問政與服務效能及有效推動貶怨各項業務所需。善請各位委員能秉一貫愛護之初衷、靈異之詞。謝謝。好接下來請行政院人事行政總處懷副人事長口頭報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2219.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2240.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席各位委員女士先生大家早安感謝大院委員會今天安排本總處的預算解凍報告那我們在113年度審議中央政府總預算的時候曾經對我們總處的人事行政政策規劃跟發展有凍結350萬那相關報告我們都在1月23號已經函送大院在案那簡單報告如下第一個關於勤修辦法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2241.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2260.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
（宣導精進作為。那我們在去年有做多次的通函並且也做實地的參與那麼在今年也採取那個勤修制度的數位化課程已經在今年的3月底已經上線了那我們希望未來的閱讀力能夠目標能夠在95%以上那另外也辦理相關的分區座談會 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2261.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2285.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
另外對於特殊零修制度的管理精進作為我們在去年9月又安排對於請修制度工時較長的機關進行實地訪視跟基層同仁相關座談也就他們所提出問題提出解決方式另外對於請修制度的精進納入我們人事機構的人事主管考核作業中另外關於公務人員個人資料網的一個精進作為的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2285.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2303.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那公務人員個人資料款是一個公職人員資料的一站式一個服務那在去年有總共有服務打260萬人次那公務人員的資料校對打57萬人次獎勵令無紙化部分打到140萬件那公務人員只還生來查詢資料打110萬人次那未來我們持續會推動相關機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2306.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2322.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
公務員在這方面的一個服務另外建權公教人員條件制度法制或法律依據的部分那我們人事長在今年3月在大院委員會已經有承諾未來會朝法制方向規劃目前總處已經依照中央行政機關的法制座位規定演繹相關的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2323.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2349.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
後續會徵詢中央跟地方主管機關跟相關團體意見來辦理草案的公告那評估後來根據各位各界的意見來調整內容來報行政院審議那我們預計會在最遲在今年年底已經送到大院來審議另外關於公務人員居家辦公的申請標準我們在COVID-19的時候已經有推動居家辦公那另外在112年6月已經訂定行政院跟所屬中央各機關的居家辦公的一個相關的規範那這個計畫會繼續推動到明年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2352.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2370.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
另外評估中央政府總原額法是我需要調整那這部分我們在過去已經有做適當的調整那未來如果各原額上限有需要調整的話我們會依照中央政府總原額法的相關規定來進行原額上的調整那另外比照護理師模式來研議警消的勤務加急部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2370.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2382.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那因為這兩者之間事實上在不管他的目的跟本質與或所不同但是我們考慮到警消的工作特殊性我們在去年7月1號開始就已經對於那個警勤勤務加給調整15%每月加花7000到9700塊左右那這個部分因為涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2388.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2414.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們不只是警消人員有輪班人員還有其他公務員那所涉及的預算相當的規模那因此未來再處理這事我們會在省政評估跟財主單位來一起來省政來作為一個評估那本總署各項施政計畫都有一個相關的規定在推動那也請各位委員能夠支持解凍案以上報告報告完畢謝謝進行指教好謝謝法案部分的口頭報告請法務部徐次長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2423.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2443.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就行政院函請審議洗錢防治法修正草案議案提出報告並被質詢僅提供本部意見如下敬請指教一、前言即行政院函請審議洗錢防治法修正草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2444.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2468.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
針對亞太防治洗錢組織第三輪互相評鑒就我國洗錢防治法面指出缺點跟建議為落實我國風險為基礎之洗錢防治措施本部就我國常見洗錢犯罪類型及新興洗錢犯罪手法因應現行實務對洗錢犯罪構成要件之適用爭議擬拒洗錢防治法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2468.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2489.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
修正洗錢定義洗錢犯罪是過程要件及刑度並增訂提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付等事業或人員未登記卻在境內提供服務之刑責利用此二類帳戶犯洗錢法之處罰以及在刑事政策面以洗錢規模區分不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2490.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2515.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
行動提高法人的罰金行動、沒收擴大範圍並徵定偵辦洗錢犯罪控制下交付機制及為鼓勵自身及自首減輕或免除其刑,促使洗錢防制法符合國際規範並有效提升我國執法的效能。第二本部對於各法案之意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2515.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2540.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
一（有關於台灣民眾黨黨團及黃珊珊黃國昌委員所拟據洗錢防制法第10條之一議定信託規定與行政院函請審議版大致相同那12條及12條之一有關海關部分比第21條互惠原則21條之一控制下交付等規定與行政院函請審議版本相同本部禁表贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2542.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2547.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
黨及黃先生等委員3人及郭國文等委員16人所提議草案第5條修正用於高風險業進行洗錢防制登記等 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2558.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2578.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
部分行政院版本草案以修正虛擬資產業者用語以FATF建議一致。升定指定範圍包含達一定金額以上交易應使用現金以外的支付工具,又第三方支付行業已於11年 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2581.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2602.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
經行政院指定為本條第三項第五款之非金融事業或人員第三有關台灣民眾黨及黃珊珊等委員三人所提草案第五條之一第五條之二及郭國文等委員十六人所提草案第六條之一對虛擬資產第三方支付等服務業線上遊戲或遊戲點數等高風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2605.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2629.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
高洗錢風險業者之規範部分本部意見為若要採登記至納管因涉及登記申請及相關流程已由該業別之主管機關先建立制度而高洗錢風險業別之業者與境內提供有關本業服務故應受規範然若涉及本業以外之業務內容例如廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2631.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2640.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
業務招攬並非國際規範要求防制洗錢納管範圍且法律﹐法制面以循其他法規處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2642.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2663.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第四（有關台灣民眾黨及黃珊珊黃國昌委員所提草案及其他條文本部意見如下第二條洗錢定義掩護行洗錢犯罪細參考德國刑法261條規定一定性為抽象危險犯第二那第三條特定犯罪呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2664.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2688.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
據高洗錢風險之犯罪類型（均已納入第三（第7條之一本部建制平台部分本部目前已有機制可以完全辦理且均有在進行第11條洗錢或滋恐高風險國家地區定義現行條文更具彈性第5、14一般洗錢罪部分貴黨團及委員提案是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2688.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2707.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
符合罪責級距建請再酌。第六、第15條特殊洗錢法部分將以收入顯不相當列為犯罪過程要件之一恐造成婦人致死排除成立犯罪可能性的不公平現象。第七、15條之一人頭帳戶帳號之規定貴黨團及委員提 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2712.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2739.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
提案恐混淆勒該規範與幫助詐欺幫助洗錢罪嫌的區別第8那第16條提高法人罰金倍數及自首減免刑責部分所適用的條文範圍均請在座那第9是第17條免除保密義務部分現行法第9條第10條第2項已有明文那又金融機構或 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2742.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2757.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
指定非金融機構應確實落實客戶禁止調查。第十（第18條末收範圍擴大部分所適用法條的範圍建請在座結語。行政院已於 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2759.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2787.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
113年5月9號通過《洗錢防制法修正草案》案該法案兼顧我國國情及國際規範為我國打擊信心、詐欺、洗錢等犯罪及面對APG第4輪相互評鑒時可再創佳績的重要武器其能於本會期完成修法以展現政府遏制不法促使金融透明以接軌國際之決心以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2792.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2798.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好那麼其餘機關報告請參院素面機關代表報告完畢相關素面報告內容列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2801.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2820.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
現在機關報告已進行完畢現在開始詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記請登記第一位省委員發會發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2838.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2850.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主席,我們是請法務部次長。請法務部次長。謝主席,委員早。席次長早。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2852.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2873.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我想今天我們委員會以很快的速度來安排大家目前民間大家最關心的有關於行政院所推出的打詐司法其中的最重要一個清源的防制機制,這是我們的洗錢防制法 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2876.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2894.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個我們行政院通過這個打詐司法一般現在我們要讓民眾知道就是說這個在目前的法治基礎之下我們所進行的這個這個對於打擊這個這個詐騙的這樣子的決心因此我們在司法裡面大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2895.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2924.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
除了這個扎西犯罪防治條例齁就這樣子的一個一個清源的防治之外另外針對就通訊的部分資通的部分有關於這個通訊保障及監察法還有科技偵查及保障法那接下來最重要的這個清源這剛剛講的是下游的啦齁下游的溯源那就是這個清源真正清源的是我們洗錢防治法啦齁洗錢防治法這個部分我們如果在洗錢防就洗錢防治法目前的這些相關的漏洞我們必須要把它補足沒有補足的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2925.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2942.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們現在所有所進行的這些打擊詐騙事實上都在這個部分會有問題剛才我也聽市長報告我們這次整個洗錢防制法整個修正的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2943.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2961.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我看大概就是一個是第六條的修正就是有關相關的這些入刑化就是把這個虛擬資產服務跟第三方支付的服務如果這個未完成法徵登記或者是這個第三方支付沒有完成能量登錄的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2962.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2991.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
還有這個境外公司必須要落地落地登記否則的話如果沒有完成這個而執行相關業務我們就入刑化對不對是再來大概就是第20條的這個新增特殊的這個洗錢犯罪的太陽有關虛擬資產帳號第三方支付者的犯罪工具我們也在也訂定這個相關的這個洗錢太陽的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2993.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3017.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那這個我大概但是因為齁雖然這個這個法規洗錢防制是由法務部主管但是事實上我們我們發現說在這一次的修訂修正上面事實上業務的重點事實上一個在金管會一個在訴法部啦真正真正要執行這個對不對市長我們目前目前這個這個大概大概一個一個有關這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3022.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3039.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
虛擬資產的部分應該是由金管會來主管第三方支付是由訴發部來主管所以這些部分我想整個大方向整個我們修法大方向我基本上是非常支持的因為這目前確實是一個洗錢防制的一個大漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3040.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3058.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
但是實際上在我們來看目前的這個修法我是覺得還有幾個問題還有一些問題齁除了這個法條我們今天所修正的之外齁還有幾個有關於這個包括現況業界的現況這不是你們主管但是有關的相關的要定定的有一些相關辦法齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3059.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3076.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這部分可能要責成法務部來請相關的這些主管單位要禁訴因為我們這個法有很多都在法律裡面授權授權各相關主管他們要去定立執法只有這些執法完成這個整個洗錢防制它的這個法律架構才會完善那這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3082.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3097.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我現在就目前的這個修法第6條的這個第一項後段的部分有關境外公司的這個落地問題這部分我個人是對於現在目前這個我們的法條上面有一些不太明瞭的地方來就交次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3098.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3119.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
目前我們這個規定按照這個第6條第一項的這個後段近外設立的這個提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務事業人員非依公司法辦理公司或者分公司的登記然後完成洗錢防制的這個法遵聲明或者是這個這個第三方支付的服務能量登錄要完成這個否則不得在國內提供虛擬資產服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3127.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3150.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個是我們的要件但是我們法律效果定在這個第四項所以說違反第一項是規定除兩年以下有歧途刑、拘役或科或併科新台幣500萬以下的罰金市長那他如果這些外國這些在境外設立的這些公司他在台灣如果沒有登記沒有登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3151.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3179.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
然後他執行相關的業務他公司跟公司都沒有落地那我們要怎麼樣對他來執行這個第6條第4款之規定呢我們還是會處罰行為人因為他還沒有做公司登記那今天他在我們中華民國境內有這些違法的行為不至於說沒有人在這裡有所以我們行為人責任無法如果在網路上面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3181.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3183.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
網路上的話目前我們說你一定要在台灣落地才能夠執行但是他就是沒有登記沒有落地啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3194.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3221.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那我們對這個公司我們有管轄權嗎?現在經管會對於特許行業相關法定規定並沒有針對未經經管會許可的境外業者在我國境內提供相關活動的定義跟禁止規定所以我現在就針對這個我們現在要修正的第6條的後段這個境外設立公司沒有辦理落地的我們要怎麼處罰他? |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3223.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3244.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
如果...呃...處罰誰?怎麼處罰?我們這個第6條第4項的這個法律效果要怎麼樣?我剛才有特別聽到說如果他人是有來境內阿如果沒有呢?這個...這個就變成一個是一個事實的問題我們...對所以這就是一個漏洞啊?呃... |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3247.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3271.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
所以例如說例如說我們在相關的法律效果上面我們應該在網路上我們能夠去遮蔽或者去禁止禁止報告委員這個是另外一個法律的問題就是我們是用遮蔽的或把它下架的那是防止他犯罪所做的跟這一個又不太一樣因為我看這一條我就是有這個疑問就是說你要怎麼樣來 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3276.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3286.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
來對這個境外公司進行法律效果是是好這部分請法務部這邊研議啦那我現在要請這個這個經管會經管會跟這個書法部來請經管會跟書法部好這個次長你先請回動作快一點委員好沒關係再講一分鐘好 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3307.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3331.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
目前我先請教金管會有關目前虛擬資產的部分交易平台目前通貨平台業者有幾家目前就是完成法專聲明的業者一共有25家25家都已經完成法專聲明 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3336.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3357.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這個沒有完成還沒有完成法律聲明的有多少這部分我們沒有詳細的統計但是跟我們申請的境外業者目前境外業者在台灣有在執行業務的幾家目前我們查獲是有7家有廣告招攬的行為有7家有廣告招攬的行為個人避傷的部分呢我們目前怎麼樣管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3359.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3386.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
個人 B商的部分目前如果按照現有的法制那他們還是必須要去按照這個營業登記法跟這個那個稅籍登記的部分去做登記目前這個虛擬資產的虛擬資產管理的部分我們是還沒有虛擬資產管理的專法那這部分我目前我看是我們是是依照這個十大原則對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3387.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3403.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
對我們有定一個指導原則我定一個這個指導原則啦十大指導原則啦齁好那我現在請問速發部剛才是這個虛擬資產的部分啦齁那第三方支付的部分是速發部管嘛對不對第三方支付目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3404.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3428.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
以你們司法部的了解經濟部目前有辦理這個公司登記他們公司登記的業務有包括第三方支付的有幾家一萬四千多家一萬四千多家一萬四千多家這一萬四千多家裡面這個這個實收資本額是零的有幾家你們會不會了解這我們要查一下有八千多家啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3430.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3442.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
他公司登記都有這個第三方支付但他根本就沒有在執行第三方支付業務有8000多家目前實際上進行第三方支付的業者服務業的這些公司行號其實不到100家不到100家 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3445.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3457.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
到目前為止這不到100家已經業者有申請要能量登錄的有幾家?有81家有81家是不是?81家現在每天的付款年日平均額超過10億元的有幾家? |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3475.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3494.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
七家有七家七家這個這個七家他就事實上就就有金就納入有金管會來不是21以上才會有金管會21以上對21以上必須要納入這個有金管會金管會來來來來這個納管那這個好這個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3500.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3525.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
有關這個虛擬資產齁跟我們這個第三方支付的這個部分齁我看到我們這個目前這個提這個有關這個齁我先再請金管會啦齁這個我們現在今天修法的齁第6條第二項我們提有有規定說提供虛擬資產服務之事業事業或人員齁辦理前項的前項的洗錢防制 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3526.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3546.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
登記的這個申請條件齁程序或撤銷費值他有有關的相關辦法包括這個這個洗錢防制登記的申請條件程序撤銷費值或者還有包括這個這個虛擬資產上下架這些應遵刑事辦法由中央事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3548.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3574.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
中央目的事業主管機關定資。中央目的主管機關是誰?就金管會。就金管會。對。我們目前這個進度我們依照這第6條第6條第二項我們就是要必定相關辦法嗎?對。目前有沒有相關辦法?我們已經做偶爾研究。那我們可以在這個我們這個授權的這個條文通過之後我們可以在6個月之內按照法制作業完成。 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3576.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3592.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個目前我現在看到的是剛剛講的十大原則目前是用行政指導在做啦這個位階實在是太低你們盡快按照這個第六條第二項你們這個相關的辦法應該要盡快來擬定啦盡快來擬定這個然後這個虛擬資產的這個專法你們預計什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3599.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3614.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
預計什麼時候會裝專法?我們從剛剛講的這些相關的辦法現在從行政指導原則相關的辦法到真正的最終的處理方式還是必須應該要有相關的專法你們大概什麼時候會完成? |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3614.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3634.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
報告委員專訪我們也已經委外研究我們在9月份9月底之前會提出我們的這個9月底會提出的初稿初稿那什麼時候你們預計什麼時候要這個這個這個送出草案我們在年底會完成那個就是正式委外的正式報告那至於那個年底完成了還是報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3635.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3658.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
對,但是如果說是專法的部分昨天我們彭主委有在會有答詢是在會在明年提出來明年提出來啦對因為我們相關的我們這些有關的這個這個這個我們整個打詐的系統包括洗錢防制包括虛擬資產的管理這個整個都是配套的啦這絕對不是只有法務部的責任啦好不好好以上謝謝委員好謝謝沈委員接下來請謝委員隆介發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3678.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3687.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
主席,我請秘書長請周秘書長秘書長,請問老闆我請教你我們這個昭榮齁都有站一些警察啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3699.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3718.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
啊、二、三、六、六、七都有那麼我看委員啊、官員啊、立法院有人說他們都會站在清安門口啊、可是在這裡如果是主席要來開會、要來主持會議啊、在外面有人跟他作動啊、我們這警察這樣給他委託讓他進入這個會議廳輸我們的主席可以進入會議廳來讓會議順利進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3728.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3750.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這樣有算你們動用檢察權嗎?沒有。這個大概要這樣說明啦。會場跟議場,以院會來說,因為議場裡面有第二條規定是會場。那會場才有動用警察權的一個概念啦。那一個議場裡面它有議場的管理啦。是這樣的一個概念。 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3751.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3772.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以在主席若要入來開會,警察跟維護給他安全,進入這個議事廳裡面,這樣不算動用警察權?沒有,在我的概念上是...如果這樣在立法院議會裡面,維護議長進入議場,我沒看到警察入來議事廳裡面嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3778.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3803.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
如果這樣委託議長議長進入議長裡面這樣會不會算動用警察權?這位外政可能有點誤會了那是會場我們對警察的動用就是因為這一個警察人動用是不能影響到委員行使職權那職權的行使裡面的一個概念是這樣而已這樣感謝你因為這是有人誤解說韓議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3808.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3830.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
動用警察款來這樣解說就很清楚。第二有人說為什麼要走手來做標革本身在現場有看的但我沒有錄影結果有其他的東林錄影就看到有民進黨的委員把我們的標革卡丟掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3835.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3862.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
當然,這樣會影響到表格的進行嗎?會啦,但是這個我未必在會裡面說完啦。不過這一個會影響到這一個表決的一個處理。齁,所以若是譬如說在此開會,我如果去跟民進黨的委員的特定那張表格卡我把它抽掉,我人總要照出來,這樣他就沒辦法表格了嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3863.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3871.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我如果抽5張,他們就選5個可以去洗啊,這樣就做成糾紛了,是不是?會做會長,這樣好了。好,感謝你。主席,我現在請法務部跟這個金管會。好,來,法務部金管會請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3884.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3895.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
保證、促證請教你委員長我們這個修法的目的其實洗錢的過程中是進階是要封地詐騙是啊你過去數年在這個洗錢裡面你知道有多少是透過世界的膠囊洗錢的比率這麼多報告員 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3912.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3937.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
沒有沒有沒有這方面的資料。禁官會阿?沒有。包委我們也沒有這方面資料。喔,這樣你們在修法的過程,這科入料就比較少了。你們簡單看全世界這麼多casino 裡面,包括地下的,很多洗錢就是這樣來的啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3939.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3965.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
除了應該你們都有聽到還是有什麼沒要這要做一個統計我本身認為說要有一個統計啦我報委員有所謂的犯罪黑數齁就是說你可能在民間有很多朋友提供你資訊但是我們是以查到來作為我問說你過去查到洗錢的這個案件裡面在交通查到的比率降幾%啦這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3971.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3987.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我們只有統計詐欺的那個數額沒有說對他的手法來做分析這這樣沒辦法打到七成啦我告訴你所有的詐騙本身喔接觸到很多人認證你覺得怎麼樣?我們詐騙有一個專項叫165嘛對不對?是一直廢掉啊我個人接到就久了耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4000.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4003.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
一回去了,感覺可能被騙了,打去165165說,他說我現在回去找一個帳號,我回去這個口罩拜託給我凍起來165跟我說,你要先去報警,你要報警之後我可以給你凍,處長是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4026.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4037.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這個部份作業的手續是內政部主政?沒有啦,我...啊是不是這樣啦?什麼人煮飯,這不是看...這個人的問題啦,我想問是不是這樣嘛?現在沒有一個說受騙的人去醫療房,他就可以動帳號啦,你要去完成報案報案了喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4052.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4069.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
因為警方通緝,他才會把這個帳號凍結,我說的意思你聽得到嗎?我知道,這是明確性的問題啦。好,來。所以我說修法的規定,要把金管回來。比較修啦。您過去的統計,這麼多... |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4072.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4083.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
如果10萬件的案件裡面包括警示帳號這樣一張一張一直寫著表示你們有在注意現在已經到10幾萬、11萬幾千、12萬幾千了嘛若是這樣的話所有的罰款、詐騙過去抓到的詐騙、罰款的金額都是多少錢?以上還是以下? |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4101.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4103.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
相關的金價一百塊多少錢呢?是不是倒數都是在三兩百萬以下一齣一齣的款啦倒數 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4115.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4137.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
報告委員因為這個匯款到底詐騙的金額是多少其實還是牽涉到最後警調單位的調查啦那不過一般來說的話那個金融機構如果你是我要跟你講的意思你這樣聽下去就重點了咳嗽我們今天日因為很多人是錢花了啊花錢是一個衝動跟買房子一樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4144.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4147.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
沉浴沉尿啊,我回去覺得我買尿對啊不對,有到幾無一瞬間而已,一回去,他覺得受詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4155.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4169.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
他會去報案。有一種是經過認證10分鐘、20分鐘後,他會感覺懷疑,他會開始問朋友,感覺詐騙。可是,若是把這個匯款的作業,很多有人會說這樣,會影響到金融技術啦吼,金融技術的影響到什麼?這條錢匯去,認證期2小時,我講的意思你聽得到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4184.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4196.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這條錢回去之後,對方因為什麼?他都在選對方嘛。有錢進來,他就叫車手去捏嘛。所以錢很快就捏掉了。選擇我8點前後,你給我凍起來,還不會浮啊,他錢已經捏掉了。若是有2點前的冷凍期,我還要保留你的金融特殊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4212.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4216.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
怕說影響到人家欠錢,太弱調用了,啊你廢款還要人家凍? |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4216.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4221.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
所以我問你說,廢款詐騙的都是在多少金額?比如說一百塊錢都差不多3百萬、2百萬、50萬、30萬、20萬,不定!這樣你是不是可以抓一個適當的金額以下的廢款,去做一個2小時遭遇的冷凍期啦? |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4238.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4248.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
非婚姻、非料,他感覺歡慰或是他感覺受騙,他可以快速歡迎,我告訴你,這樣可以檢視很多詐騙案件,讓這個態度堆塞。你對這個公法有什麼建議?看法嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4258.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4286.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
報告委員那個金額應該是多少還有這個冷凍期的問題的話金額的多少我會覺得應該是還是要跟檢調單位去先先瞭解啦這樣我沒有這個意思你有瞭解嗎你都沒有考慮這個戰促因為我們在民間收到很多受害者的金錢嘛所以一直在想要怎麼去突破嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4288.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4300.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
立法院協商也有冷凍機,冷凍後大家會比較冷靜。一小時或兩小時這個時間,還不去應用到我們的金融的特殊及經濟最弱的行為。這是要去共同修復的,因為炸片比較是氾濫到今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4309.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4327.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我告訴你 做差的最危險 我看你們強強要降農財金了所以不管是怎麼修 我們怎麼修他怎麼退便 我們怎麼修他怎麼退便我們腳步如果對應不到 我告訴你 我們的人民的受害越殘忍 越悲哀你覺得 可以對這個方法來考慮嗎 可以延期嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4337.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4357.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
報告委員,我們可以演繹看看啦,因為時間,凍結的時間也不能太久。當然啊,所以我在講,我告訴你,我剛才在講,你沒聽到嗎?一十分鐘、二十分鐘,人家廢料處理才會冷靜啦。人家還沒廢,之前他會很緊張的,就說說想要廢啦。但廢處理後,他就開始冷靜啦。我告訴你,是兩小時還是一小時,我告訴你,這真的有效的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4365.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4376.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
真有好辣。您趕快去看看啊。啊有什麼適合我們行的所在。你希望你可以一份說明來給本席及委員會好不好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4379.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4402.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好,這個是不是我們也可以跟那個檢調單位法部一起來?可以啊,沒有主席建議我可以用心了解請那個銀行局一一委員的要求啊那配合法務部將這樣的程序要件納入未來的一個修正內容好不好?是不是另一案? |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4403.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4413.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我們這個是不是另案報告?另案報告?好啦好啦,好,另案報告。謝謝。好,謝謝謝委員,謝謝次長、局長。接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言。謝謝周委員,有請立法院周秘書長。請周秘書長。法務部啊,我們今天法務部誰來?法務部次長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4433.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4460.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
徐次長國務部是什麼人徐次長徐次長好啊那個司法院司法院請我們的副廳長副廳長來好三位請民務長教委一度這樣講那個國會警察權的部分我希望你能夠再講清楚啦如果我沒有誤解的話我覺得你講的是完全錯了國會警察權規定在哪一個法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4463.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4477.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
呃,對這個長期在立法院是有兩方面在爭辯啦。你們的認知啦,你們的認知啦,你認為國會警察權,國會議長可以行使他的警察權,法律預計是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4478.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4479.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
是的,我在跟你講說,總要一個依據嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4503.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4519.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
不是說昨晚來今天幹了秘書長或者是韓國瑜幹了院長然後我說沒有沒有沒有這個立法院就是我最大我是院長或秘書長我最大所以我不用跟你們講理由我為了維護秩序我在跟你講的是誰哪一部法律給你這樣的授權啊這本來就院區的一個議場沒有本來啦要行使權利擁有權利總要法律的授權嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4531.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4539.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
沒錯啊沒錯你要告訴我啊哪一部法律啊不要整個哪一部法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4542.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4551.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所以說嘛所以說嘛法就是沒有這樣規定就概念就對啦齁我現在不講警察情報我現在講院長的權利我在講國會警察權國會警察權不會是警察的權利警察是受命 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4563.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4576.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
警察只是受命來我是在講說當你發動國會警察權的時候你現在一直在跟我說為了維護自我為什麼要為了維護秩序我是在跟你講為了維護秩序為什麼是你院長下令啦你的權利來自於哪裡啦沒關係沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4583.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4593.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
您不能胡說八道一通啊講得有道理就算啊但不能亂講因為這個本來今天不是這個這個探討這個警察警察員探討的範圍啊因為這個長期裡面有一個概念在 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4602.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4617.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我為警察權的動用...警察權的動用在外界體制你影響到這個委員的職權行使一定是會場裡面的動用警察權的概念那整個一個立法院的... |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
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就是為什麼我這一個以前為了這個警察人動用跟法治局一直長期不同的概念在所以法治局的概念認為加債權主席就是為了整個一個立法院他會行以加債權的觀念可以動用警察權我個人不認為啊法律固定在什麼地方我個人不認為所以這個在在探討的過程當中我要跟你講的喔是秘書長我就是講 |
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警察權其實國會議長沒有明文受到法律的授權他只是在講說國會議長要行政中立維護整個醫師的一個進行在我們立法院裡面組織法有啦 |
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那立法院警察的勤務的規則他當然跟你講說國會議長叫你來連總裁現在召委他都可以召喚那個我們立法院的駐警啊如果外面有人抗爭啊維持委員會的意識境他也可以啊國會警察權談的不是本期在講或這幾天用到的都不是這一些啦立法委員跟立法委員之間國會自主如何來運作這一塊國會自己處理 |
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這外面哪怕是行政院或者是警政署長跟你作案來多好啊跟韓國瑜多好他們都不能進來他們是不能進來的喔他有那個什麼我警察接受你國會議長的指揮哪一條 |
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也沒有啊所謂的警察權是在維持秩序啦那維持秩序到底要有哪些種方式那是剛好你國會有駐警就像你講的那個只是一個概念一個法治國家為什麼沒有辦法把它做明文你知道嗎我們怕被攻擊啦任何人執政任何人在立法院多數都不敢把那個法律明文去授權 |
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如果立法院組織法裡面你就把它規定了國會議長他可以召喚警察來維持國會的秩序那我就跟你說法律有給你這樣授權都沒話講了我們就沒有這樣的法律啊所以我在問你說法律的授權啊趕快給秘書長沒關係這個是一個普通的概念嘛 |
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因為 呃 我不想再論辯這個概念但因為中文一直要提啦所謂的警察權的動用是我們外界所理的動用警察權是在樂會場裡面為了 |
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你干預到委員的職權行使這叫動用警察權的概念所以這個我們在論辯為什麼從梁世榮委員一起開始我們一直反對這個概念所以這跟法治局的羅局長完全概念的這一個不一樣所以我才你不用這麼緊張嘛我不是在跟你說不能動用警察權 |
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或是我現在講的是說動用的審查權會產生爭議那些爭議要怎麼來處理這個爭議就是要授原說誰賦予你這樣的一個權限立法院組織法有沒有授權給你院長有沒有授權給你秘書長我要跟你講的是說沒有所以你才跟我講說 |
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哎喲那可能是一個家財權的概念吶那是外界的觀念吶我是在跟你正本清源牽扯到委員跟委員之間必須定這人吼不用受騙吶在一個位都不會解雇吶公平我會給你說公平解說就好警察全講的吶其實都是在談 |
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而非立法委員去干涉到的整個立法院比如說群眾啊或不相干的人啊干涉到立法院的整個議事的一個運作這個時候才有警察權發動議事抗爭的時候啊 |
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我還沒看到有一個終局定論每一個人都知道啊立法院應該更有秩序啊民主政治大家更應該有素質啊這個大家都知道台灣老百姓都知道但是發動意識抗爭的時候你要動用警察權我就追根究柢來問你了 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
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那你的權利來源來自於哪裡? |
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4889.809 |
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你的權利來源來自於哪裡? |
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你就說沒有嘛,你就說概念而已啊。 你就說沒有嘛,你就說概念而已啊。 你就說概念而已啊。 你就說因為過去就這樣,實在是硬的。 你就說因為過去就這樣,實在是硬的。 你不覺得因為你那個立法院的那個警務,警察的一個勤務執行規則裡面,那個哪是法律? |
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那不是法律欸。 |
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可以啊就是因為這一個警察請募規則並不代表我們所說的警察權的動用所說的動用警察權的概念是在會場裡面的這一個動用警察權所以在這個涉及到對委員的實情的行使的一個干預所以我們警察權的動用是 |
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這一個概念在整個議場以外的...我在跟你講的是說誰可以動用的法律授權來自於哪裡嗎?所以因為沒有法源所以這個...我説明一下因為沒有法源所以從劉松文院長一直到現在包括韓院長在內都不會動用警察權這個警察的概念是這樣來的所以我今天要跟你講的 |
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我今天要跟你說兩次而已,不是要跟你吵架啦就是說你那個法律的授權第一個沒有啦 |
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沒有一條法令規定你院長、國會議長授權給你說你有這個警察權所以你就要很迂迴的從過去怎麼樣怎麼樣然後說那個是一個慣例啊怎麼樣甚至你說那個只是一個觀念那個整個立法院的這一些警察、執行勤務我們只是弄一個規則那規則是在規範這些警察那不是你國會議長取有的權限 |
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我是在跟你講這個,所以我在跟你講你解釋完以後就是說這個其實都會有很大的紛爭了。來啊,可以啊。就是因為我們兩者之間對於警察權的這個概念是不一樣的。不一樣才會產生我們這邊的論辯啦。因為為什麼當時在會場裡面 |
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警察權不能動用的理念就是因為這個警察勤務規則是沒有呼籲為院長在會場的意思的這一個處理可以動用警察權到這一個會場裡面那其他的警察權當然院長有這個權因為我現在跟你講異常嘛不是異常的我跟你講這個幹什麼站在你後面的都是法學專家啊他們聽起來也愛笑啊 |
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對不對 你國會自主 你的自主裡面 你說要歸你的警察權的一個動用當然是在議場裡面啊 那議場裡面警察怎麼可以去介入呢每一個政黨有他的預示策略的一個攻防啊 所以我們不要擔心啦 這個議場會場概念不一樣啦 所以我要告訴你就是說 這個都要小心啦 |
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就像你講的真的沒有法律授權啦但是呢又為了要等個國會自治國會自主的運作要排除其他的那個整個秩序維護整個秩序那個都是在講外部去干擾到這個議場裡面的意識運作啦其他其實齁都叫做國會自律啦啊搞不好若不修國紀不可以懲戒這樣說 |
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5093.444 |
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沒給你漏氣啦,是你說的不清楚,我要給你追問比較清楚一點。法制上 |
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5100.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5109.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
法治上確實就是沒有授予在議場裏面 不敢指導我這對年紀比我大一歲我沒有很客氣不可以 老闆抱歉我問阿伯兩句話就好起來我也要針對議題 民主黨請回啦我現在就請 這也要金管會的 這叫你們倆的啦 比較沒意思的 我現在這樣講我們今天早晚這樣安排這個 我相信 |
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5128.098 |
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5154.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個其實大家社會大眾去講到的整個虛擬的一個交易的數量越來越多啦我們就擔心的就是這些黑錢洗到最後變白錢我們要溯源嘛我很擔心的就是說你們我聽完以後啊跟金管會以及我們這個虛擬交易所的一個合作幾乎是有沒有說是零嘛 |
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5155.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5174.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們今天要審這部法律你這樣叫趙薇要怎麼審呢?我如果一個人幫下去我們跟外部的合作那這個部分我們如何去做一個加強儘管會是一樣啦儘管你不能給大家都發一些新聞行政指導以後叫人家不要受騙就好啊推動業界去自律啊這些人都不自律的你給人家要自律 |
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5176.594 |
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5193.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
現在台高姐已經跟四大虛擬貨幣交易所已經有建立平台那也預計有再繼續跟8家接洽所以我們是要跟業者要充分的合作這個我很擔心你說只跟我們內部我們台灣還是不夠啦 |
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5214.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個交易平台就那麼多了你看虛假的也那麼多了我們現在來看的話金管會裡面幾乎我每一次看到的就是投資人對你的投資的後果要自己去負責然後對於整個幣安以外的境外的投資的一個平台 |
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5215.726 |
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5234.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
要用什麼樣的一個合作的模式本期很擔心的就是一個漏洞我們有把相關的資料也提給國外交易所請他們來回覆我們真的是做得不夠的地方在我們今天的修法之前我們還沒有看到你們有多大的 |
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5235.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5255.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這一些相關的配套你們做得起來還有你們運行到現在你們的成效是怎麼樣因為金額還是那麼大這個部分真的要加強好不好是是好謝謝委員好謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢那接下來我們邀請莊嘉斌委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5268.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5284.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請...沒關係,等下有請立法院州秘書長以及司法院代表請陳副廳長那請州秘書長及陳...陳廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5297.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5312.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
司法院副廳長陳副廳長中委員好副廳長好來先請教司法院代表當我們立法過程有核限性爭議的解決途徑是什麼如果立法有核限性爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5314.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5341.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
合憲爭議的話應該就是申請釋憲好申請釋憲好我們看一下齁過去我們是根據司法院大法官審理案件法第5條那現在是根據憲法訴訟法第49條這個案例這4至第603號呢當年有立法委員賴清德人85人申請齁那當中呢一憲是規定要有四十四分之以上就行使職權在法律未接法規範抵觸憲法者呢來申請憲法法院是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5342.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5343.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
憲法官第1476會議不受理,必須行使職權並投票反對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5366.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5387.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
請問司法院代表是不是認同這個決議的內容不受理的決議他所具名的行使之權要投票反對你認同嗎這是大法官的會議決議你認為有沒有拘束力我們尊重大法官的說法是的好來請民主黨行使之權就要出席嘛那投票反對才符合申請事先的資格你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5388.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5412.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
欸這一個尊重委員的對對不是啊這是不是那就是司法大法官的會議嘛我沒辦法對於這一個大法官你是尊重大法官的說明嘛不是尊重本席的嘛大法官就要決議了嘛因為他們有做這個決議因為不是這一個不是是視線裡面的對他是決議的內容好來我們看一下齁下一項才在做這些決議的對不受理如果你沒有這兩個要求不受理嘛不是這樣寫法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5413.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5440.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
太過千...如果不符合如果沒有這兩個案就不符合應該這樣寫才對往下看好來這是1476號上面的不決議有38位立法委員這是在107年的時候他因為前瞻條例認為韋先生你當然解釋後來有沒有通過我們看一下為什麼不同意呢不同意的決議的附件三大法官根據會議公報判斷哪些委員有出席贊成或反對在當天的議事物當中申請委員38個之一的高金素美委員請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5441.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5441.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
民主黨你知道這個過程嗎?你知道這件事嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5461.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5462.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
議員三十八位才符合三分之的資格。為此 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5482.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5505.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
國民黨那時候只有37席他特別提出民進黨也支持喔後來的限數法怎麼樣改成四分之一從三分之一改成四分之一三分之一要38席四分之一就不用了未來讓少數黨可以申請釋憲民進黨支持限數法將申請釋憲從三分之一的門檻降到四分之一你知道是這樣的情況嗎 |
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5506.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5528.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我不太瞭解為什麼要這樣來。不過降下來之後是不是37個就可以申請釋憲?這個我不太瞭解。現在降成四分之一,是不是29個就可以申請釋憲?你可以用一、三去算四分之一,但是至於立法院理會是這樣我不太瞭解。你這個算數,我就問你嘛,把三分之一降成四分之一,從37個降現在就是28個,29個,那這是數學問題,你數學不好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5542.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5563.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
五月二十一號的舉手表決看照片現場有誰投的反對票有沒有確定誰有在場投票這樣能夠申請釋憲嗎如果有我要申請釋憲因為這一事的過程我未變表示意見未變表示意見那你就這邊現場聽好我們就要看立法院有幾種表決方式這可以講了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5564.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5591.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
跟預示規則有幾種表決方式?有五種嘛來請告訴我有哪幾種不用告訴你來不用你再翻墊齁浪費時間來第一個是不是口頭表決?第二個是舉手表決第三個是點表決器表決第四個是投票表決第五個是點名表決是不是這樣?查到沒有?要不要告訴你第幾頁?沒有錯嘛齁一、二、三、四、五這五種是不是這樣?是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5594.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5615.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我們來看一下第三種的表決系表決後面我們看到的第一種的口頭表決跟第五種的點名表決他分別口頭表決相當於他不記名嘛口頭表決怎麼知道是誰但是點名表決他就相當於記名嘛那請問舉手表決到底是屬於記名的項目還是不記名的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5618.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5631.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
有沒有辦法去名有沒有達到記名或不記名口頭表決不曉得是誰啊你知道什麼叫口頭表決嗎你要不要示範一下有沒有遇到過口頭表決的情況立法院就你過去所知 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5632.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5660.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我要這樣說明因為你是專家因為口頭表決的概念在你告訴我現場怎麼口頭表決我告訴你啦你聽我講啦贊成請說贊成贊成反對請說反對我聽聲音大的聲的喔贊成多於反對贊成不要大聲叫口頭表決口頭表決是沒有辦法具名的舉手表決可以點數對不對好來往下看舉手表決呢你意識人員如何表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5661.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5691.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
你們點出53人吶可能有其他政黨的來舉手表決參加支持民進黨的哪兩個我也不清楚再往下看立法院執行司法第6條出席委員過半數是同一刑之是不是出席委員過半數嘛對不對那你如果確定出席委員過半數先確定有多少人出席110人出席過半數就是56100人出席過半數就是51對不對是不是這樣子事先講出來啊是不是不要點頭而已是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5692.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5721.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好來我們第36條議事規則表決因應可否兩方依次行之要先問可的贊成的請舉手反對的請舉手本席在主持司法法制也是一樣現場除主席之外11人贊成的請舉手6人反對的請舉手5人贊成多於反對是不是這樣子好來委員會好那很好委員會裡面呢因為沒有表決器所以我們可以現場判斷來請看下一個我們議會是不是用表決器 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5723.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5729.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
是不是用表決器你看一下是不是用表決器表決器上有出席黃色棄權紅色的是反對綠色的是什麼是贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5732.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5762.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
每位委員必須簽到院會當天簽到才能領卡必須人在裡面才能插卡插了卡你才能按出席你不按出席那個白鈕你不能顯示你是反對還是贊成一旦你按了出席你就記錄了出席人數了你按了贊成就顯示綠燈按了紅色就顯紅燈所以我們用表決器按兩個鈕最後出來的結果出席人數有贊成多少人反對多少人一清二楚還有名字是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5763.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5783.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
所以表決器是不是記名表決?我不說你當天,我問你現在表決器是不是記名表決?我問你嘛,現在表決器是不是屬於一種記名表決?是不是很清楚?清不清楚?我問你這樣清不清楚嘛?那你示範給我看不記名表決表決器怎麼會示範不記名表決器可以用記名的,也可以不記名 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5790.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5803.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
民主黨我先問你吼來立法院執行新司法我們有投票表決有沒有有6種投票表決是不是你有告訴我我們立法院投票表決依照執行下來有6種 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5804.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5822.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
對不對?有不信任?六種情況。不信任案。復議案。緊急命令。彈劾。罷免。人事同意權。有六種是要記,三種是記名,三種不記名。那是投票。記名的投票選票上有你的名字。不記名的投票票上沒有你的名字。這樣往下一頁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5824.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5836.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好我們看看公報記載的贊成反對跟棄權名單立法院的法案表決都會出現這個名單請問一下上週五跟本週二的最後的立法院公報會出現這個贊成反對的名單嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5838.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5845.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我要這樣說明因為你這樣的我沒辦法答覆你因為舉手表決方式主席在採用的狀況不管公報會不會有記錄誰贊成誰反對在長期裡面的例裡面都有舉手表決的方式在我先問你舉手表決的結果會不會在公報上有贊成跟反對的兩種名字出現因為舉手表決跟表決期的記名表決當然會不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5868.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5896.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這是一定不一樣的啊那我講一講啊這就是立法院的秘書長在胡說八道的鏡頭啦你們可以去看表決記者可以不進行表決的我現在問你舉手表決可不可以告訴我大會公報記載誰贊成誰反對你怎麼回答這一點舉手表決可不可以當然不行嘛當然不行嘛你如果用舉手表決在立法不能區別贊成跟反對我們未來如何去申請釋憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5902.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5928.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
你作為幕僚你沒有讓立法的表決留下贊成跟反對大法官要如何判斷你是出席而且行使之權行使反對回憶記錄也沒有寫誰贊成誰反對啊所以你再看一看要大法官去看圖說話嗎要大法官看著照片勘驗證據哪一位委員是贊成哪一位委員反對嗎還是在喊口號往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5929.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5952.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我今天要用這個機會我就是要突顯出立法院秘書長在韓院長大會主席主持院會的時候沒有辦法沒有能力來判斷我要告訴你你身為立法院的幕僚長你身為秘書長又稱為號稱是我們的立法院的百科全書我們的百科字典 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5953.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5975.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
你對議事規則嫌熟。請問舉手表決未依可否俱成有效嗎?這是立法院執行司法第6條要同意過半數。你沒有先清等人數不要先110還是100。你舉手的時候怎麼知道?第二要可否併行啊?都沒有進行這樣的程序這樣的表決是無效的。第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5976.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5993.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
法案的表決涉及到未來核限性爭議的問題。我要申請釋憲。你要採具名的方式。具名有幾種?點名是不是具名?我問你,點名是不是具名?表決器可不可以用具名?可以具名,可不可以具名?可以嗎?投票可不可以具名?投票可不可以具名?可以嗎?表決器可以具名? |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6001.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6029.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
投票可以記名投票也可以記名但是舉手表決沒有辦法記名請要我們未來的法案表決要確定用具名的方式確保我們事件的申請可以合乎要件民主黨你如果未來不能堅持這兩點我們會保證把你從主席那邊趕下來好 謝謝宗教兵委員的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6044.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6064.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
主席有請周秘書長有請周秘書長秘書長我們的中召委非常有氣勢非常霸氣阿要把你從主席台趕下來你有沒有被嚇到我不在乎這個位置阿謝謝要把你從主席台趕下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6066.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6093.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我告訴各位我今天就欣賞我們中召委阿心裡話說出來阿中召委說要把大家從主席台趕下來這就是他說要把周萬神從主席台趕下來阿要把主席台趕下來阿好我就要跟各位講請問周秘書長為什麼當天我們必須要採取舉手投票為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6094.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6120.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
因為有一個因素產生啊,所以不得不採用居所表決您好,很中立,我不為難你但我來講講因素是什麼當天是不是發生民進黨立委拔掉國民黨的這個計票卡,有沒有誒抱歉,影片都有中召委影片都有很清楚影片都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6122.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6133.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我想請問秘書長啊今天民進黨說要把人從主席台拉下來一直攻上去主席台被佔了以後有辦法表決嗎有辦法表決嗎我說如果民進黨把主席站下來主席台站下來把麥克風拔掉還有辦法表決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6150.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6164.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
癱瘓方式之一啦所以為什麼今天國民黨必須在上面互助議事尊嚴互助議事程序嘛因為民進黨所有的欸這個可能不要民進黨不要再否認啦你們全部在攻主席台啊所以第一個情況民進黨口口然後民進黨就喊說你們全部下來按計票器計時器表決那我就要問第二個問題民主黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6180.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6195.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個計票器的那個計票卡每個人委員配的那張計票卡被拔走以後請問如何行使計票啊對嘛今天如果舉手表決有像民進黨說這麼萬惡不赦就是你民進黨造成的啦我們在台下按計票器你就上去抽主席才癱瘓意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6207.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6213.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
我們在台上守護議事你就在台上偷拔計票器不要否認有影片還在講舉手投票你油臉講舉手投票舉手投票就是你民進黨弄出來的就這麼簡單我再想要請教一下我們的秘書長舉手投票是不是議事規則裡面的投票方式是三十五條規定啊對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6235.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6256.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
就是議事規則裡面的投票方式啊那民進黨你要講說多少年前我管你多少年前他就是議事規則裡面的投票方式沒錯吧委員會是舉手投票啊不是嗎英國的國會舉手投票嗎不是嗎舉手投票就是因為在當場的議場上民進黨的蠻橫 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6265.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6287.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
以逼的今天我們的議事進行必須採取合乎規定的舉手投票我接下來再要請教我們的秘書長我知道中朝我一直在講所謂的這個可否依次來那個表決嘛 對不對那想請教秘書長一定要用這種方式嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6292.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6295.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我剛講的是說可否的這個問題他是說贊成要舉一次反對要舉一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6316.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6336.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
因為我們從實例裡面都是正面表決的沒有用在做環表決的我也呼籲秘書長什麼叫正面表決當場如果明顯我們在做贊成投票的時候贊成數過半數就極為可決嘛 對不對對啊單面正面表決只要過半數就是可決嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6344.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6353.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
對不對啊單面正面表決如果是今天反對過半就是否決嘛所以也沒有鍾佳平講的那個問題啊當天所有的投票如果說今天民進黨的數學不好我幫大家算啊請問秘書長國民黨這次立法院幾席啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6368.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6394.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
五十四席阿民眾黨幾席八席嘛然後那個民進黨幾席五十一席對啊各位你們直接去看在現場國民黨跟民眾黨尤其國民黨幾乎是全員到除了正副院長因為身份的某些過去的原因原則上除非特別狀況參與投票否則就是五十二席在那個地方阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6395.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6399.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
加上民眾黨巴西請問有沒有過半?議長有沒有過半?就過半了嘛所以民進黨到現在為止透過各種方式來去這邊扭曲我再問一下秘書長請問你們在協商的時候有沒有談到希望大家就是不要這個公站主席台我們就在底下去投票有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6426.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6431.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
因為他這不是公開的所以我未必在這邊說明好 那我在這邊正中呼籲啊真的啊 我覺得下次協商很簡單啊請所有的三黨的立委黨團三長直接簽竊結書這麼明顯這麼愛計票機投票保證兩件事情計票機投票就會發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6451.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6480.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
只要民進黨不占主席台癱瘓意識保證一不要講民進黨所有黨不占主席台癱瘓意識保證一以及所有黨不去拔人家這麼沒水準拔人家的計票卡保證二民主黨想請問這兩個保證都落實大家有沒有辦法就坐在椅子上好好的按計票器了在書上是一定會這樣處理就可以了嘛所以民進黨你這麼心心念念不要舉手投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6482.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6509.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
你就簽保證書嘛我來跟國民黨反映我們就簽這兩點保證書三黨都簽明天的投票全部都做在底下好好的表決不要偷把表決卡丟人現眼偷把表決卡是不對的行為就像說今天我們進到議場大家在那邊好好排隊不要插隊嘛國民禮節不插隊民進黨也做不到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6510.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6520.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
國民黨排隊排多少小時?你本來知道嗎?第一天的那個開會在那個電視上是很長時間48小時啊我在那邊睡兩個晚上啊我是睡兩個晚上啊我今天晚上還要再去睡我們願意嗎?排隊精神啊那民進黨又懶惰你早點去排隊不就好了?為什麼不早點排隊?到現場去插隊? |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6540.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6552.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
懶惰、插隊來為了要搶金一場打警察、打記者、打立委、打一死人打穿亂來啊厲害啦還說別人暴力黨啊還好意思說別人暴力黨我再來問秘書長警察權請問一下秘書長當天有行使警察權嗎沒有因為韓院長一開始他就宣告不動用警察權 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6568.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6587.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
可是民進黨一直咬著你用警察權啊奇怪為什麼民進黨一直咬著你用警察權秘書長你就覺得沒有用警察權為什麼因為警察權的概念啦因為長期在院裡面的在研究的時候這個警察權的概念是在會堂裡面的我幫秘書長歸納一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6590.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6615.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
警察權的概念是在那個會場裡面嘛 對不對當議事進行程序受到干擾的時候如果今天立法院院長要排除這些干擾在那個會場裡面叫做警察權嘛是不是這個概念我的看法是這樣因為中委員跟我看法不太相同那我跟各位講議場以外就是院長的人身安全維護是不是就整個一個院區的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6620.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6632.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那我想請問第一天民進黨在那邊我威脅到院長的人身安全在門後面沒有進到會場喔門後面喔鏡頭很清楚吧又拉又扯又拔成何體統像樣子嗎但韓院長的安全不重要嗎民主黨韓院長安全重不重要對啊很重要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6644.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6672.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以今天如果說確保今天韓院長能夠好好的有尊嚴的不受傷害的不受威脅的走進會場這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎?走進會場而已喔不是在會場裡面喔會場一定警察是不能進去會場對嘛所以在會場以外那就是今天院長的人身安全維護啊不是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6674.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6699.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我想請問今天院長如果說今天要進到立法院而外面有民眾打他攻擊他攔阻他不讓他進來請問警察要不要保護他當然要嘛這個就沒身份區別了我不管那個民眾是叫做民進黨立委還是叫做一般民眾只要今天去攔阻了韓院長進到立法院裡面請問警察要不要保護他 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6701.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6704.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
要保護他嘛那這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎當然嘛法律常識啦稍微剛剛我們莊瑞雄講很多我要繼續一下稍微再借一點時間我再來請問一下秘書長明天還在講清點人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6724.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6743.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
可是我看到以前蘇嘉賢院長親臉人說的方式蠻好的啊為什麼今天我們親臉人說的方式民進黨不滿意呢?為什麼?不太了解不過有利在錢所以我們原的是誰的利?剛剛公報有宣告是因為蘇院長的事對嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6745.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6772.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
就蘇嘉全留下這麼好的議事範例啊民進黨這麼討厭蘇嘉全嗎不需要一直打臉蘇嘉全啦真的拜託就像說今天我們那天提了所謂的不再提散會動議的動議這個創始人是國民黨嗎是柯建民嘛 對不對當時的立法院長是民進黨的嘛 對不對所以民進黨啊真的不要一直在那邊回籬標打自己啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6773.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6781.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
最後我要問一下秘書長你那麼多年間警政署那個代表可以上來一下最後一題主席最後一題警政署代表上來一下我想請問台灣民主有史以來由執政黨發起全台街頭運動對抗國會以前發生過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6801.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6806.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
執政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。民主黨他現在還要研究一下你曾經記過有哪個執政黨發起全台的街頭運動號稱要來對抗國會的,你有沒有聽過?請周民主黨回答。台灣沒看到。沒看到,來來來。副署長看過沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6829.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6852.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
答對就是沒有啦當家鬧事可惡自己就是民進黨啊那我再問問看啊全世界我不知道啦我的世界觀不好啦有沒有發聲過說今天執政黨沒關係啦我告訴你我再借我借一下我們柯總召的星海羅盤時間啦齁我要跟大家講我再最後一題問一個問題結束來沒關係我問完來我要問秘書長齁全世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6857.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6859.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
有執政黨號召街頭運動來攻擊國會對抗國會來說要藐視國會喔他主要說我要藐視國會號召全台街頭運動你見過嗎哪個民主國家有這樣做法過 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6873.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6896.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我比較出錢不過我只知道那個行政部門跟國會之間曾經發生過但是那個是抗議執政黨啊抗議執政行活動比比皆是啊抗議在野黨我真的是沒見過啦歷史第一次全世界都在看偽詐民進黨當家鬧事想要癱瘓國會以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6898.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6902.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好謝謝羅委員謝謝周秘書長接下來請林委員施明發言好謝謝昭偉請秘書長請周秘書長秘書長林委員好我想針對剛才我們昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6927.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6938.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
講說要把你趕下台我聽了非常震驚其實中央兵委員我想過去我們在第10屆大家也是同事我對他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6940.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6959.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
的感受就對他這個人我覺得他還蠻穩健理性的但是剛才講說要把你從主席台趕下來我覺得我蠻震驚的不像他過去讓我感覺他還是蠻理性蠻這個作風蠻溫文儒雅的一個一位立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6960.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6985.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以我想這樣的在我們的委員會質詢的時候對秘書長做這樣子的一個言辭的其實我是覺得說很不恰當所以趙偉我不想說讓你從我的這個對你的觀感有所改變所以我還是希望說大家理性的來問政而不要涉及到說秘書長我要把你趕下來怎麼趕 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6987.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7007.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
暴力嗎你可以嘴巴講啊我想我們很多的委員在職選不管行政官員我們也會講說你下台你下台大家延遲交鋒但是說如果說要用這種暴力的行為我想這個絕對是要受到譴責的很不恰當好那回歸正題那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7009.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7037.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
民主黨我們在星期一、星期二的院會的時候我們發現一件就是發生一件事情就是說我們的這個立法委員在我們在這個審查國會改革無法的時候那有好幾位立委都被在那個我們的媒體台上面的國會的某位委員的國會助理這位助理叫詹守中 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7038.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7061.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
而用他的不曉得是用手機還是用用攝影機還是用這個相機呢去拍攝可以的拍攝我們委員去窺視他的手機他在看手機去窺視他手機的內容窺視他手機的內容啊部長你看那相你就看一下啊好幾位委員吼包含了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7064.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7085.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
陳永康、賴世寶還有高堅素梅陳清輝委員故意的對他的手機的內容在窺視他手機現在正在拍攝什麼請問民主黨當天有跟您有委員有跟您提出說現在在台上有人在偷拍他當時你怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7088.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7114.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我當時王委員來臺上有跟我說我立即就請他們去處理啦但是在可能是某個委員的助理在在澳門我們是有叫他請他因為他有證的啦因為助理有證所以當然不可能在場上做獸營的動作所以我們請他離場是那他做這樣的一個動作而且他PO到這個他的臉書上面齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7116.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7143.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
有意圖去散布請問民主黨這種行為是構成我們相關的一個刑法上的一個罪責我只在行政上就對於這一個異常的管理會去加強對於這個處理至於有沒有涉及刑罪我就很抱歉我也不太了解好那我們請法務部法務部是我們的次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7150.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7166.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
市長請快點市長現在我們想我也大概給你看一下就是我們刑法其實妨礙秘密罪章規定的很清楚就是不得去歸視偷拍人家非公開的這些活動那您認為說現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7169.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7187.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這位助理啊在這個就是我們的媒體區上面從台上拍攝我們委員他不是拍攝他的這個整個公開的活動他針對他的手機的內容可能去拉近距離去偷拍去窺視他手機的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7189.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7210.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
請問這樣符不符合我們刑法315條的無故利用工具或設備去窺視他人之非公開的活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位?夠不夠成這條罪?我想這個案子從這樣的畫面我不太能夠掌握他到底看得到看不到他的談話內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7212.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7232.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
就這樣一個畫面如果只是一個人坐在那裡看手機這樣的動作其實我想好幾張相片啊都可以看得出來這樣子看所以這個部分看起來好像我目前看到那個照片是看不到那個因為那個有點比較小啦對對對但是如果只是看起來只是一個人在那裡滑手機這個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7233.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7256.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好,這樣沒關係,這樣你看不清楚我體諒你啦但是其實我們從他這個行為舉止裡面我們看得出來其實他是故意要去窺視我們國民黨籍的立法委員現在手機到底在談論什麼,在看什麼這個他的意圖非常清楚啦所以他是無故以照相的方式來切入 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7257.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7279.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
且看他人的言論還有談話所以其實是蠻清楚的所以這個部分我在這邊我就提告法了我就提告法所以這位詹守忠先生希望你們趕快去運以這個偵辦因為秘書長很客氣他沒有把他移送法辦其實這個已經涉及到有相關的犯罪的嫌疑所以我在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7281.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7303.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
正式告發這位詹守中先生涉及違反刑法315條之一的防害秘密罪這是一個告訴乃論的罪是被拍攝的委員要提出告訴那我們請這個被拍攝的委員趕快來提告檢察官就會依法來調查好謝謝那請這個秘書長秘書長你要有什麼補充我以為說這樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7306.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7309.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
市長我再請問一下我們針對這一次我們行政院本的洗錢防制法第二條就洗錢的定義啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7327.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7345.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
將第二條第一款的原本是意圖掩飾或隱匿特定犯罪的所得來源或使他人逃避刑事追溯而移轉或變更特定犯罪所得那現在我們把它修正就是把意圖兩個字刪除請問次長刪除的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7346.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7375.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
因為我們是參照德國立法例那德國刑法261條對於掩飾型的洗錢犯罪我們還是一樣是採所謂的抽象危險犯那我們只要客觀有隱匿或掩飾行為主觀上知悉可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得就會構成那沒有必要把這個特定的意圖意圖犯放在條文裡面不過沒有讓我們覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7376.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7397.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這樣子的話也方便認定也不影響法律的構成要件是那個這樣我看你的在說明裡面您是提到說好像跟我們的刑法的體力用意圖引以掩飾你認為這個跟刑法的體力不好像有所這個漢格啊是其實我看起來不會我們刑法裡面很多的意圖盈利啦或意圖使 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7398.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7414.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
他指自己或第三人不法所有這樣的一個構成要件都寫在我們的法條裡面所以你原本有意圖隱匿或掩飾這樣的一個構成要件但是你現在把它拿掉把這個主觀的一個要件拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7416.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7438.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這個我看起來你說繼續看起來你解釋了很多啦但是我覺得我還是覺得說這個把它拿掉好像在這個包括我們試用上可能會有意義基本上犯罪我們都會分成客觀要件跟主觀要件不會因為意圖這兩支拿掉以後就不需要主觀要件那這個主觀要件必須要主觀上知悉或可得知悉財產 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7439.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7441.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得。 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7459.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7482.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
就是比較好像沒那麼具體的看起來啦你思考一下啦這是我的建議啦我覺得把意圖拿掉蠻奇怪的是是是意圖隱匿意圖掩飾這很清楚啊過程要見就非常的清楚啦是把它拿掉你說因為要去參照德國的立法例是我們是參照德國立法例是我是請你再研議啦好不好是是是好謝謝來是我再請教一下就第17條的規定講說可像 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7485.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7511.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
公務機關這條新增的講說可向公務機關或非公務機關調取必要的資料並得分送國內外相關機關在條文說明處說這是參考FATF評鑑方法論所建議的準則而增列除了請問次長在尚未新增本條條文時偵查洗錢的案件是否有遇到任何的調取資料的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7512.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7529.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
目前的運作都是根據法務部調查局組織法以及法務部調查局處務規程法務部調查局辦理洗錢防制洗錢及打擊滋控業務作業要點等這個行政組織法或內部行政規則來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7531.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7548.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
市長我了解我現在問的是說在過去沒有這一條以前你們在偵查這些案件有遇到任何的困難嗎?行政機關還是都會配合但是平建的時候就認為我們沒有法制的話這對我們來講是一個有一個法源的依據但是我現在想一個疑問就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7555.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7578.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那我們採明的時候我們調取的資料得分送國內外相關機關那國外也會將他們調查的資料傳送給我們嗎?這個要互惠對嗎?要互惠嗎?對我們要互惠要一定的條件所以那現在我們有哪幾個國家已經跟我們建立這樣的平等互惠的一個制度啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7581.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7584.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
現在愛格盟的會員有174個國家所以我們透過愛格盟的安全網路可以跟174個會員國交換情誌 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7605.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7633.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
所以有174個國家已經跟我們建立這樣互惠平等的機制我們的資料分享給他他們也會把他們的資料分享給我們基於平等互惠的原因我想這個非常重要否則我們空口這個條文如果沒有平等互惠的一個機制那我們把資料分享給他結果他們都沒有都沒有把他們就是人家把錢洗到國外去我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料我們對查證上面就非常困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7634.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7657.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以說就是國外他們我們訂了這個條文之後國外一樣會依照你剛才講的什麼愛德蒙愛德蒙聯盟安全網路也會提供給我們分享他們的資料給我們現行都有在分享所以他們也有相同這樣的一個洗錢防制的條文嗎跟我們一樣的一個對等的一個條文嗎只要因為所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7657.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7678.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
金融情報中心他的相關法制要符合國際規範那國際規範非政府的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換是是是所以我國也已經建立這樣的一個制度了規範好謝謝主席再給我一分鐘我請那個地政司王晨基市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7688.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7705.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
市長,我簡單問你,我想我們新竹園區科學園區三期還有台資園區在上個月以及這個月都陸續召開了我們的專案小組會議。結論其中一個那個三期是說送土增小組繼續來做一個審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7709.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7728.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那台資源區就是說昨天講說前天講說要舉辦公聽會所以請問市長未來地政司就這兩個案子的就是從你的業館來講未來您如何來這個做相關的相關這個徵收案件的一個推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7729.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7753.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
根為簡單報告目前還在都委會嘛那都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議那未來送到地政司這邊的話那是我們進行那個整個公益性必要性的一個評估報告那我們會按照這個程序來排這個公益性必要性的一個報告台資呢?台資現在因為你講要開公聽會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7755.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7774.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
大概開幾場公聽會?開公聽會類型是在還是在都委會這個階段。是是,不是您的夜館。不是。好,以上。好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員,謝謝。來,接下來請翁委員小林質詢。翁委員小林,翁委員小林不在,請黃委員三三指,發言,請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7782.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7782.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
法務部經管會政企局 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7798.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7823.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
市長還有金管會政企局我想今天有洗錢防制法的提案說明我也講得很清楚台灣民眾黨的洗錢防制法版本已經提出來那我看到院版的相關的版本我昨天也諮詢了部長台灣現在的詐騙已經影響到人民的生活而且我們應該政府應該竭盡所能的來打詐但是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7824.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7838.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
民進黨政府執政多年八年來我們的詐騙案件成立了打炸辦公室成立了相關的打炸政策綱領但是我們的打炸是越打越炸 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7840.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7862.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
案件從2萬多件40多億現在已經到3萬多件80多億所以我們現在提出了打詐專法那今天又提出了洗錢防制專法但是我今天看到你們的洗錢防制法裡面有很詫異的一件事情金管會對於虛擬貨幣的業者現在有相關的專法來做管理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7863.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7879.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
有嗎?現在沒有但是我們在這一次的洗錢防治法第6條把所有的你們該立專法的法條是不是全部都挪到洗錢防治法上面由法務部來幫你們管理啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7881.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7899.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
包括委員 這個第二條如果通過之後 那他這個執法授權的執法這邊規定是說中央目的世界主管機關來訂定就是監管會來訂定我要跟次長說你法務部現在的問題是我到立法院將近三個多月從2月1號開始跟監管會不斷的在討論虛擬貨幣業者怎麼樣監管他們從頭到尾就是不想管 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7906.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7923.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
也就是說對於我們所謂的虛擬貨幣新興的業者這些新興的科技相關的產業他們其實跟洗錢跟詐欺是有息息相關的但是我們金管會從頭到尾就是不想管定了一個指導原則請他們成立工會請你們工會去自律 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7923.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7943.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
今天突然間又把所有東西丟在洗錢防制法交給你法務部來管理我看起來洗錢防制法裡面有一大半尤其是在虛擬貨幣業者全部都在幫他管理社長你了解我的意思嗎我們如果今天洗錢防制法是幫金管會去管理一個業者這是很可笑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7944 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7970.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我想這個洗錢防制法不是一個部會單獨的業務是但是他業者的監管應該是由他訂專法之後監管他的行為才是洗錢防制法要處理的行為但是不是洗錢防制法來幫他管理業者這是我個人的意見而且我也認為說我們不應該把管理這些業別的責任丟到洗錢防制法來當母法 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7971.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7974.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這是你法務部用這個母法來幫他監管你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7977.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8003.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我想主責洗錢防制法是我們的義務但是業者的監管是監管會應該去訂出相關的管理規則而這個業者經過政府認可這個業別你才來管這些業別的人他的洗錢要怎麼管制對我來說從法的角度從體力的角度他都不應該把對於業者的監管放在洗錢防制法讓你來管 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8004.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8030.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
今天的我的意見是如此請你請次長也回去重新跟金管會好好的討論金管會從頭到尾就是不想管包括他們跟我們所有的溝通過程就是他我只要定定規則業者去自律自律是什麼樣的狀況就是不管的意思第二個第三方支付也是這一次重要重中之重可是我們第三方支付又是速發不再管對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8031.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8059.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以我們的國家同樣的管理機制各種不同的主管業務法務部任重道遠現在他們都是洗錢的管道之一而洗錢又跟詐騙息息相關所以這些所有法案裡面都應該由一個主責單位就是我們民眾黨所提出的相關的辦法裡面很重要的是法務部應該建置一個完整的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8060.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8086.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
你知道現在業者怎麼報嗎自己跟高檢署聯絡自己跟調查局聯絡自己跟警察局聯絡所有的虛弊業者都是做這樣的事他想要配合但他不知道怎麼配合有的好聯絡好沒有聯絡的他想要跟銀行溝通說我這邊那個帳戶我跟你的關係他沒有聯絡管道這是我覺得很詭異的地方如果中華民國政府要打架不是這種打法 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8088.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8110.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
越打越炸是怎麼回事呢?市長你對於這個平台有沒有什麼意見?要不要建立一個完整的平台?而不是由金管會做一個法務部做一個金管會在前面管銀行管得嚴得要命這些相關的人全部不管然後這些平台業者變成要自己聯絡第三個你法務部在後面收爛攤子 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8112.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8125.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
市長我想今天這個法很清楚既然要提我們就提一個完整的版本第二個該監管會的責任就堆回去給他不要幫他承擔監管的責任你了解我的意思嗎是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8128.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8145.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
多久之內我們這個法既然委員交委要排審了我們希望說下一次我們希望把監管跟責任跟洗房的行為把它切開你們這部法律裡面看起來就是你說我們的版本有問題我才認為你們的版本問題很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8145.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8172.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
報告委員是不是還是依照我們這個版本然後在相關管理的這些執法在有相關的部會他們來制定?我要說的是你的洗錢防制法不是在幫金管會管理業者啦你的管理業者的辦法應該是他另外定一個專法這個專法這是他的責任不是洗錢防制法的責任洗錢防制法在管行為不是在管業別對吧?對 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8173.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8187.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
拜託你了好嗎我想回到體力上面回到正常的管道讓金管會負其他該負責的責任政體局一樣我希望你們負起你們該監管的責任該立法就立法不要推到洗錢防制法去好的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8191.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8211.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
好請謝謝王委員謝謝次長接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱洪孟凱委員不在請陳委員俊宇發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8232.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8248.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
好謝謝主席主席我們先請法務部我們的次長及經管會的莊局長請次長及局長主席謝謝主席委員好次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8250.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8276.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
市長我先請教您我們今天排審的這個洗錢防制法修正草案是在這個會期的一個重點法案之一那我也希望說能夠透過修法來回應民眾最關心的這個詐騙防制的相關問題那也是相關部會在打擊詐騙和這個新興洗錢防制上急需擁有的一個武器那這邊我想先就兩個部分來請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8278.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8282.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
有關這個洗錢防制的這個跨機關整合應該要如何來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8289.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8316.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們這個法就是本身就是整合在我們母法定好以後相關的執法然後相關的經管會或者是訴發部他們就根據這些母法的他們會制定相關的執行的執法那就對於業者的管理以及申報的義務以及集合內機跟他們的內控的機制跟集合機制都會接著就會出來相關的法則會出來這都是跨 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8316.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8333.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
瓜部會的一個結合我想這個才會好那我們在這個跨國合作的部分緊透過這個參與亞太防制組織是否這樣就足夠了這個是對我們的一個平建制度就是護平的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8334.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8359.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那其他的像剛才調查局的同仁也報告過我們很多的一個資金的異常的資料他們事實上我們在國際互惠的原則之下是有做交換這都是屬於跨國的合作那我們目前是有哪一個機關在負責這個工作就是你說跨國的合作部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8359.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8367.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那個法務部調查局的洗房處洗房處好那那個洗房處嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8372.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8401.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
報告委員我們現在就是因為我們那個倒下去洗錢防制處是我國的金融情報中心那我們有參加那個愛格蒙聯盟那透過愛格蒙聯盟的安全網路我們會跟其他的會員國做情資的交換好那我再來我想請教我們銀行局莊局長我們除了在法制面上的這個修正以外在務實上的執行部分想請教和第一線的這個金融機構在修法上溝通是否順暢 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8402.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8428.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
報告委員其實這次的修正其實現行金融機構他本來就已經固定在執行他防制洗錢的義務所以其實這一次不用這一次的修正以前我們其實現行的條文裡面就賦予金融機構很多的義務比如說KYC啊或者是交易監控那這些資訊如果他們覺得有任何可疑的部分他們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8429.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8449.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
去通報那個法務部調查局的那個FIU那邊那FIU這邊其實定期也會跟金融機構做一些教育訓練我們常常會辦一些法尊論談所以彼此之間資訊是會互相的互相的好那對於我們修訂的這個機制和規範有沒有這個規劃相關的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8454.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8469.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
這個部分的話因為這次主要修正的重點主要是虛擬資產業者那如果後續修正完畢之後我們也會循現有的金融機構的溝通協調還有論壇的方式來做彼此資訊的分享跟訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8470.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8493.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
好,那剛剛問的這部分再請我們相關部會是不是可以會後給我一份比較詳細的這個書面資料。好,是。好,那那個局長跟那個次長跟局長請回。好,我們請那個周秘書長。請周秘書長。好,秘書長好。我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8494.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8520.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
就這個立法院解凍的報告當中國會助理法制化的部分來做一個討論我想這個問題也不是新的這個議題了過去不管是公會還是民團都有在倡議那希望透過法制的修訂以避免發生爭議改善工作條件等等那現行有關規定是依據我們立法院組織法第32條及第33條包括每位立法委員可以聘用的這個助理人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8521.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8537.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
以及各黨團公費助理的人數那秘書長您在這個立法院已經30多年了多年來來來去去也看到很多的案例那想請教秘書長一個問題就是您認為國會助理在立法院裡面是扮演什麼樣的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8544.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8570.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
涉事委員問政包括當然委員的處理有很多類別但最主要還是要能夠讓委員在問政的時候能有相當大的一個問政的功能那立法委員的職權相當的繁重那個秘書長您也認同需要有專業的幕僚團隊一起來推動相關的工作但是從這個我們先前調查的結果可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8570.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8586.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
國會助理的平均年資僅有2年多甚至大部分都做不到4年也就是少於立法委員一屆的這個任期那想請問秘書長說針對這個部分您的經驗來看造成這個流動率偏高的主因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8586.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8605.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
當然這一個因為事由委員在雇用的時候因為每一個助理他對他的這個生涯規劃不完全一樣啦因為事由委員來雇用嘛所以在總政的過程當中有很多的委員助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8605.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8623.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
一、二十年的委員處理也很多。其實除了生涯規劃以外啦齁這個待遇可能是最重要的原因之一啦齁所以現在公費助理的薪水來自立法院每年所編列的預算那我想請問秘書長如果助理的這個待遇能夠這個明文規範公開透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8625.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8639.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
讓有志投入國會的工作的助理在待遇上能夠有保障有可能比較能夠避免投機的行為或是違法的爭議事件發生我想請教秘書長您的看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8640.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8660.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
對於委員的助理,因為長期來從七十幾年我們在互動的時候,我對於委員的助理是相當是曾肯定的這個態度啦。當然能夠讓他提升的一個他的職位,比如舉個例來講,委員的這個工會助理的這個費用,原來就是從3萬4萬到現在是5萬嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8662.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8679.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那如果各位委員認為他這個助理在僱用的費用能夠提升其實也可以經過這一個主持法的大家的一個修正上讓他提升讓委員有比較多的這個僱用這個助理的費用也是一條路的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8681.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8707.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
國會的這個助理法制化齁那我相信這個部分我希望我們由秘書長您這邊來做一個滾動式的檢討啦我們能夠檢討出一套符合所有這個助理的一個這個期待的一個這個新法的話我相信這樣子才能夠把這個比較優質的這些助理一直這個留存下來來幫助我們整個立法院推動相關議事的運作謝謝謝謝謝謝指導我在在 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8708.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8723.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
私下我會再來做比較嚴厲的讓他比較讓助理本身對這一個他的工作他有一個成就好那在就我們這個國會擴建的部分我想再就叫我們秘書長目前進度為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8724.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8741.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
現在還沒有已經都提報但還沒有是私下的一個希望能夠透過黨團協商因為陳委員也非常關心那麼多次所以能夠透過黨團協商來就能夠去推動啦在這裡就跟大概總務處也上前也跟院長有稍微就報告過 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8743.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8769.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我還是期待我們周秘書長您能夠加快這個速度因為就我們這個報告資料來看不論選擇目前規劃的這個其中六個點之一的其中一個點他所必須要這個期程要在14到19年左右那這時間算是蠻冗長的那這個整個過程你如果沒有趕快啟動的話我相信這是遙遙無期 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8771.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8796.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那針對這個遙遙無期的情況之下我們現況的立法院有沒有可能就限職來做簡單的擴建包括我們走進來這個警衛住所還是這個商店街還是這個康源這一個區塊有沒有辦法在這個地方先就第一期的這個擴建讓我們未來整個立法院所有同仁在使用空間上可以更加的這個符合現在的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8797.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8825.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
您要不要來跟他說明一下我請處長因為有一些規劃因為有一些規劃在報告委員因為本院在今年度有編列預算原本是等到曹禹香決定地點後我們會進行這個相關的規劃那所以這個是有做準備但是需要先決定地點好 那處長會後麻煩您剛剛講的這一個部分我剛剛詢問的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8826.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8840.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
然後再包括我們有兩個會館現在對於整修的部分的期程可不可以給我一份完整的這個書面資料是OK好那我在就叫就叫我們祕書長立法院現在是誰在當家 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8847.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8871.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
所以是韓院長在當家嗎?院長因為從法條規定他是總理員務好那為什麼國民黨在這近期的這個院會裡面全副武裝進入這個院會裡面就像這個政報人員一樣並且在這個過程裡面發生這個肢體衝突的時候導致民進黨的多位這個委員受傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8878.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8901.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
應該秘書長您都在議場裡面啊所以到底是誰在當家鬧事好 那我想請教517跟521秘書長您有聽到外面民眾吶喊的聲音有看到民眾聚集的現象嗎你沒有回家嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8904.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8908.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我想整個過程所有媒體現在披露出來都是民眾看到這個立法院裡面這麼混亂的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8925.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8951.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
在通過大家所不希望看到的法案所以自發性的走上街頭啊怎麼會剛剛我聽到說什麼是民進黨去動員的您認為咧我不太了解好 那主席再一分鐘那我想請教議事規則我們正式會議要進行表決之前清點人數應該是最基本的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8953.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8980.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
對這一個當然有清點人數阿在過程當然有清點人數可是為什麼沒有每一次要表決就要因為在有一個以前曾經有這樣的一個例過在當時也做這樣的宣告所以大概一個大概一個案他都會有一個接續他就沒有再做清點那會議開始應該也要告知所有的委員說等一下我們將進行的這個表決方式是要用什麼方式表決應該是這樣子吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8981.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9008.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
有宣告在旁邊有宣告五二一有宣告嗎?欸都有宣告大概都有有宣告嗎?五二一是宣告要舉手表決嗎?是不是?每一次在表決的時候都一定有宣告那剛剛在講這個五一七當天可能是混亂的情況導致這個表決卡出了問題那五二一並沒有混亂的情況為什麼會是用舉手表決? |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9013.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9023.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
五一七跟五二一接續因為這暑期去裁定、去處理那我想請教我們設置記名表決器的用意何在?是要裝飾的嗎?民主國家為什麼會走民主的倒退路?怎麼這麼奇怪? |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9035.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9041.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我希望秘書長您應該是要站在這個歷史的軌道上,未來要為歷史負責。好,以上。謝謝,謝謝。好,謝謝陳委員。好,那麼因為時間已經11點,我們先休息5分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9114.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9130.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
今天怎麼這麼多人?從來沒有這麼多?警察伯伯怎麼這麼多人?我們從來沒有這麼多人?我們這麼平和?從來沒有!我們當立委這麼多人! |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9194.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9195.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9416.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9441.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
好,現在繼續開會在繼續會議之前先做如下之宣告那由於主席在會議開始前未及預告今日包括臨時提案的收受及處理時間在這裡徵詢在場的委員我們待會臨時提案在11點半後或是郭委員質詢完畢後進行處理請問在場委員有無異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9446.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9450.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
沒有,那我們就做這個宣告。接下來請吳委員、施堯進行諮詢。就說11禮拜會的郭委員講完,好請。好,謝謝主席。請部長,鄭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9475.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9495.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
部長長,今天我們針對要落實打詐的配套洗錢防制法要做部分條文的修正。那我想藉這個機會跟您快速的討論一下,我想這是一個觀念的分享,是一個思維的再精進。我過去長期在教育文化委員會,我是台灣藝術文化界在國會的代言人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9496.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9507.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以我協助藝術文化界當香港發生反送中事件台灣是一個最好的歷史契機讓20年前台灣作為亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9508.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9517.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
舞台能夠藉由此時此刻台灣的經濟發展台灣的民主社會秩序的穩定等等現在是讓台灣恢復亞洲藝術品拍賣中心關鍵的時刻所以行政院也召開了多次的文化會報定下了這一個政策方針但法務部是有角色的也許您會覺得很好奇您跟藝術品有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9539.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9546.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
您有沒有去參加過藝博藝術博覽會有沒有收藏購買藝術品的這個經驗或是生活上的喜好按鈕跟委員報告我對這個很有興趣但是我沒有去參加過博覽會下次我會邀請您來看好謝謝這跟法務部大有關係下一頁就5月10號到12號剛剛舉辦的臺北當代 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9570.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9579.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
今年有19個國家地區78間藝廊來參展短短3天3.5萬人進場有非常多的藝術品的交易買賣國內外都非常蓬勃的在台灣精進發聲這幾年的藝博會是非常hot非常讓大家能夠期待台灣真的能夠重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的龍頭好下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9599.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9623.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
藝術品的拍賣是洗錢嗎我要跟您分享的就是這個觀念當我在協助很多的拍賣公司拍賣產業或是藝術創作者在修法的階段或者是我現在秀出來的例子當這些拍賣公司要更有國際競爭力要IPO不管是上市上櫃各種作為總會卡在法務部的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9625.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9638.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
因為不管是政期局、政交所或是櫃買中心在收受、受理這些拍賣公司他要IPO的所有文件作業的審核過程就會被卡住卡在一個藝術品拍賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9640.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9663.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
就是洗錢很容易洗錢所以這樣子的一個行業設下了很多層層的關卡跟不友善這是我要跟您分享的這是藝文藝術產業碰到的問題這裡秀出來的是在IPO的審查作業當中法務部門的法律解釋過於防弊大於行李對於藝術拍賣產業污名化下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9669.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9690.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
就本人在推動文化藝術講述條例的修法那個過程也是非常的辛苦我們要擴大對於藝術品交易的相關更進步讓台灣更有稅制競爭力的採分離課稅而且稅制定為1.2的這一次的修法2021年我實在歷經千辛萬苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9691.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9713.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
因為財政部很保留財政部很保留就來自於法務部的意見因為買賣藝術品就可能洗錢甚至他不是問號幾乎是驚嘆號讓我們在修法的過程我們有一個很好的歷史契機能夠讓台灣取代香港 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9714.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9720.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
活化台灣的藝術品交易的市場這是在修法的過程也卡在法務部的法律解釋那是觀念的問題下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9723.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9745.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以藝術品拍賣到底是不是涉及洗錢洗防辦跟法務部其實很清楚說嘛目前沒有適用嘛因為在所有的交易的相關的作業裡頭都很清楚清清楚楚乾乾淨淨金流買賣該登載的所有的法治管控都做得非常的完備甚至在我們修了文獎條例之後文化部在2020年召開了文化會報 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9749.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9776.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
再次定調之後拍賣市場原則上不是用洗錢防制法之後文化部也進一步定定了一個執法很明確的將藝術品交易的金額超過50萬元就要在拍賣前一個月向文化部提出申請而且主辦單位需要留存買賣雙方的資料達7年所以部長我分享到這裡我需要您政策上的宣誓 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9777.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9795.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
法務部門對於洗錢防制打炸防炸都要做但是對於正向的推動台灣的藝術文化的交易這個國家軟實力尤其要重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的這個重要的文化政策法務部的立場要清楚要堅定支持藝文產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9799.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9823.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
跟委員報告我們是會支持這個文化產業那這個文化的這些藝術品這部分的一個拍賣當然是不是用洗房法這是一個很清楚的那在個案上如果說有這種那當然要有證據有透過這種的合法認得合法的方式其實是掩蓋非法那是我們個案來處理好 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9825.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9851.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所以在個案上若有真的涉及洗錢當然該辦就辦但是在通案跟制度上是本席今天在這裡質詢您很重要的部分也就是在協助藝術拍賣公司或是相關的產業或是藝術團隊都要用更友善更進步更跟國際接軌的觀念來面對藝術品的交易市場好嗎是好那謝謝您請回有請周愛蘭秘書長請周秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9856.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9858.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
來議員好議員好議員好議員好議員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9860.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9884.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
您在國會這麼多年但我要說您輔佐相戰之下的韓院長上任3個月就創下了過去立法院30年都沒有的國會惡例第一個黑箱橋條文透明公開在哪裡第二個程序不正義民主審查全都失靈第三個議事不中立議事規則會轉彎這跟您大有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9887.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9906.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
第四、表決不公平一路做票做到贏這也跟您大大相關很抱歉這是我必須對於這幾天審議國會擴權法案所呈現的國會過去30年都沒有出現的國會惡例我要提出強烈的批判 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9906.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9918.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
立法院不能黑箱橋條文立法院不能夠程序不正義立法院不能議事不中立更不能表決不公平跟您大有關係下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9920.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9923.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我看到國民黨的委員說為什麼要用舉手表決呢因為啊表決卡不見了所以被迫啊要改成舉手表決這是國民黨的委員在網路上錄製這種抹黑、造謠、栽贓的言論他甚至說表決卡不見了就是民進黨的委員偷走的我問一下秘書長我們地方議員有沒有這麼落後 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9949.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9956.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
委員的表決卡不見了你沒有其他的空卡可以來做因應防範嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9962.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9978.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
因為卡在當時是被這個因為某種因素被抽出掉了然後呢你們都沒有被卡嗎?如果這樣任何人要癱瘓立法院的議事只要去幹走幾張卡A走幾張卡就癱瘓議事了嗎?因為這個當場的立即的處理上這不通嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9984.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9998.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那如果這樣是不是你要用一個金庫每天下班之後立法院的表決卡要收好殘殘防護要有保全保護表決卡沒有任何的備案嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10000.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10024.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這什麼理由?更何況國民黨委員的指控是胡說八道胡扯栽贓下頁我們來看影片誰手上拿著一疊表決卡誰去搶表決卡誰可以取代議事人員幫忙收卡而且把卡插到表決的委員的座位前面而且沒有一個委員在座位上 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10025.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10034.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
是誰是國民黨的徐欣盈委員我們來看一下影片徐縣長你注意看一下這個影片大家注意看一下這個影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10035.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10037.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
有沒有辦法傳沒有辦法傳是不是好也節省時間我告訴秘書長是該查如果有表決卡不見了該查是誰偷走是誰蓄意的破壞議事秩序但是就我們所搜證的結果拿走一疊表決卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10055.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10083.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
而且在違反韓院長說的唯有議事人員可以幫委員插卡而且插卡的前提是委員坐在座位上國民黨的徐欣穎委員為什麼手上有一疊表決卡她為什麼可以替沒有坐在座位上的國民黨委員插上表決卡查清楚查清楚第二個表決卡如果不見了表決就不能進行了就要改舉手表決這立法院實在太落伍了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10084.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10102.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
回去基本上我覺得是胡說八道啦不會因為沒有表決卡就不能表決啦你都有備卡空卡可以來因應舉手表決是為了什麼下一頁舉手表決是為了一路坐票坐到底這就是鐵證 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10104.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10113.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
在場只有108人是清點人數之後報給韓院長的宣誓宣告在場人數108人贊成60人否定50人請問秘書長60加50是多少請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10124.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10140.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
請回答60加50是注意喔有藐視國會罪喔我直接問您喔60加50等於多少秘書長我不希望秘書長是第一個吃上反質詢的官員喔秘書長就回答我這個問題60加50是多少簡單的數學問題是請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10149.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10152.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
請回答秘書長主席對不起我要佔有一點時間因為這個問題數學問題秘書長沒有回答欸這邊是寫110好60加50就是110人可是在場人數韓院長的宣告是108人 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10165.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10192.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
舉手表決就是會出現這種混亂狀況就是為什麼吳思瑤我作為黨團幹部我每一次表決我都要去第一章重新清點人數重新清點人數這就是必要好我不要說是不是有作票的意圖至少為了避免舉手表決可能產生的人數計算的錯誤就應當嚴謹的來好好把每一次的表決人數算到底下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10194.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10218.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
讓我看一下楊瓊英委員的這個影片齁瓊英委員您在場齁看一下好嗎也沒有辦法看影片是不是就是當韓院長在宣告某一案的表決的時候民進黨只有51席啊可是韓院長的宣告是民進黨的贊成方舉手贊成舉手表決的贊成要改記名表決的是53人 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10221.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10223.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
然後楊瓊英委員在場齁就講幾次就講啊民進黨那有可能53人啊民進黨怎麼可能53人這是楊瓊英委員在這楊瓊英委員是反應快真的反應快這要加獎他都發現了韓院長沒有發現的問題他也發現了秘書長沒有糾正的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10240.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10255.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以舉手表決的重大好那楊雄英委員現在改口說民進黨53人他當天不是問號他是驚嘆號好棒喔誰加入支持民進黨那誰加入支持民進黨用舉手表決算得出來看得出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10257.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10286.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
必須要記名表決清清楚楚的對歷史負責如果就楊瓊英委員說的民進黨這個議案支持的是53票那來看看是民眾黨的哪兩位支持民進黨唯一的方式就是按鈕表決記名對歷史負責不是嗎我後面還有很多今天時間不夠我要請秘書長明天又是一次的院會這些失序失靈還要再發生嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10288.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10308.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
這些失序失靈還要再發生嗎?唯一的解方您非常清楚就是韓院長循政辦在三樓的協商會議室透過直播透明公開回到協商場域繼續針對沒有逐條討論的立法委員職權行使法國會擴權法案逐條協商逐條討論這才是正辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10315.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10327.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
好嗎?沒有討論,不是民主。沒有討論,不是民主。秘書長,您是非常重要,相讚院長,主持要中立公平的人。好,謝謝,不好意思,再用時間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10354.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10370.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
來 等一下 等一下 等一下啊 現在要開外賣?對啊 沒關係啊 你點了我就請人家起來啊好 來 感恩喔 張瑞雄最理性啦 好 先等一下先等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10372.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10387.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
主席楊前發言我想今天我們還是回歸今天的主題洗錢防制法跟立法院的這個解通案所以本期首先要先請周秘書長請周秘書長秘書長其實在5月17號我發覺真的你委屈了 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10400.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10415.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
當你被推在地上你的文件都被搶走我們真的都傻眼了死上頭一招那我也看到我們議事組人員也被嗆聲我真的蠻難過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10416.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10436.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們是一個理性的國家民主國家不應當有這樣的行為所以我還是呼籲我們藍綠白的委員大家都是為台灣在努力我們應該要好好的來問責不要再有那種暴力連議事組人員都搶這個是不對的一個行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10443.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10463.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
當然我也可以了解在整個氛圍當中大家會有所情緒但是情緒之後我們仍舊希望大家冷靜下來所以針對今天的解凍案包括了資訊設備與入口網平台公報業務公報行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10467.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10488.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
這一些本席認為今天在英明的召集人的主持之下希望能夠好好理性討論該解凍的去解凍為什麼我首先要提出這一點因為公報對我們來講很重要當天很多委員都吶喊我沒有看到資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10489.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10504.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那這個呢也就是我們在公報當中以及現場所印出來的條文跟資料都非常的清楚都非常的清楚那本期也是希望說說雖然我不是司法委員會我是經濟委員會但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10507.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10530.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我身為立法院的議員我仍舊希望在我剛剛所說的這個向下待會大家實質討論的時候有必要的盡快解凍因為這個對於我們整個議事來講是非常重要的所以首先我要請教秘書長當天那一種情況你心裡作何感想 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10534.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10549.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
因為只是一個剎那間的一個感覺啦我倒也沒有什麼特別對郭委員對我這一個我當時都不會去想到這個東西啦因為我當時是因為其實是輸啦不是吃料啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10549.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10576.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
是書你手上拿的那個到底是什麼東西啊我拿的是兩本我的書啦那因為當時有一個早上為了表決重複表決同事裡面有疑慮所以我就拿後面那本書因為有高鐵的一個案要跟他們說明就有這樣的情況那個意識力是這樣處理表決的時候你是吳季明那重複表決也是吳季明 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10576.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10586.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
因為同事不太了解所以我把那本書拿來給他們看你的法寶啦 你的兩本書啦齁那剛才本席也說了本席也說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10587.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10603.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
也就是說在當時的氛圍大家這個情緒似乎我們都可以理解但是我希望不要再有這種暴力的行為那所以呢現在大家說為什麼會提出這個舉手表決在聯合國在德國這些國家都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10611.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10618.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
在這樣的情況之下因為依照議事規則的規範在這個規範當中大家去調整大家去調整我還請問秘書長當時我們休息協商經過了幾次的草野協商對不對開始又到後面協商對不對我似乎聽到三黨當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10639.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10642.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
有人說我們大家都回來坐著好好來表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10644.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10670.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
但是協商不成有人反對對不對?是不是?威變在這個會裡面說明啦那因為協商當時是不公開齁所以我不宜在這邊做報告所以協商我們結果論嘛你們出去有人提到這樣的意見但是協商不成那到底誰反對大家都回來坐在椅子上好好的來用表決器表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10674.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10691.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
誰唱不成就是一定有人反對嘛到底誰反對本期之所以會提出這樣論點就是希望我們不要給社會大眾不正確的訊息接下來我放一段影片我是不忍心放但是我覺得要還原事實我放一分鐘影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10697.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10708.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這不是你的決定誰抽?誰抽?誰在抽表決卡?這不是由你決定誰搶回表決卡?誰抽?很清楚誰在抽?影像證明一切嘛一事無效一事無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10728.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10747.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
影像代表一切這一些都是公開透明的所以我做一個結論立法院是這麼這麼的重要我們代表民意我們希望好好的來討論希望大家藍綠白都不要說不正確的訊息給社會大眾最後一個議題本席要請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10753.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10778.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
因為國會在這邊範圍非常的小上一屆的游錫堃院長他非常的用心這一點我欽佩他他到各地只要有人提議國會可以轉到哪裡可以在哪裡的這個地點他一個一個一個去拜會一個一個去看在台中我建議到台中 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10779.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10799.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以由院長到台中的時候我自己本身親自陪同我親自陪同所以這個目前也列在這一屆的項目之內嗎?進度如何請教我只跟廖處長跟你比較詳細的說好馬上馬上現在已經有呈報給好了現在的進度怎麼樣呢?處長請做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10804.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10826.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
報告現在我們總務處已經簽報那等草野協商決定後的地點我們會進行後續的可行性評估好謝謝所以現在進行是當中嘛你已經簽報就等三黨的草野協商嘛我充分建議在我們台中最棒高雄來OK花東來OK北部下去OK大家最公平本席建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10830.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10835.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
張律師長辛苦了議事人員辛苦了謝謝謝謝楊卓英委員因為剛剛依先前鄭德委員會同意我們在11點半郭國文委員詢答後那就郭國文詢答後我們就進行處理那來請郭委員進行發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10867.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10885.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
因為11點半要開始處理提案,所以在這邊預作宣告,我們就不再受理臨時提案。謝謝主席,主席有請我們法務部正部長,以及我們銀行局局長,還有政區局代表。請,剛剛點到名的請上台,包括部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10889.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10913.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
部長好部長因為本席今天有洗房法的這個提案那洗房法的這個問題當中主要針對打詐打詐的部分現在詐騙集團的界面其實除了這個電話網路之外最關鍵的就是虛擬貨幣那現在虛擬貨幣幾乎是無政府狀態以至於這個詐騙集團的洗錢管道都朝向這個虛擬貨幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10915.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10934.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我在上一次在建清改的這個討論當中呢建清改的這個成員啊對於現階段金管會做非常地不滿那我想問站在法務部的這個部長的角色就他們不滿的一個很關鍵的一個原因就是呢金管會並沒有全面性的納管是選擇性的納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10936.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10953.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那也就是只有採取深度監管沒有採取廣度監管這種情況底下會有掛一落萬的情況底下造成第一線的檢察人員檢察官負擔非常之重那你有沒有期待整個行政納管應該把它廣面化 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10958.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10980.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
謝謝委員的關心這個議題齁那這個目前我們初期我們先做就是先做一個洗房法這樣的納管因為這也是經過多方的一個廣納意見那至於委員所提到的再更廣面更深度的納管我想我們可以再做一個我覺得你要強烈表達意見阿部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10981.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11003.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
依照目前為止整個金管部金管會的內部從銀行局移撥到正期局也不過從23家變25家有法遵聲明而已到目前為止還有約有60家還有包括個人的幣商還有其他黑數很多都沒有納入管理的情況底下即便今天通過了所謂的登記制 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11004.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11024.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
它有限度的這種限縮的方式也沒有辦法達到一個納管的一個目的也沒有辦法達到一個洗錢防制的一個功能啊部長所以這一點你應該強烈的要求金管會做全面性的一個納管有沒有可能部長你可能對這個業務還不是非常清楚啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11025.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11045.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
另外還有他們也期望強調要有差異化的管理也就是呢大規模金控呢跟小規模的當鋪呢每一個地方借錢的方式都不太一樣不可能承擔所有的一個管理成本的一個規模部長這個都是基層檢察官的心聲啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11046.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11068.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
部長這個洗錢法目前還是在一個洗錢的防制那剛剛委員有關心的要普遍性的一個納管更深入納管我想這個我們也是有建立過金管會就專法來做有建立過金管會那我接下來請金管會金管會那個組長來那個部長已經有強烈的建議那你們看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11069.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11073.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
報告委員其實專法跟就是說這個第6條如果說通過之後的這個執法我們其實兩個案子都有在做委員那有沒有可能全面性的納管? |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11095.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11120.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
其實我們在受理申請不管是現在的法律申請或以後的你們都是個案審查啦 非常局限啦部長都已經跟你們開口了你們金管會要有積極作為啦好不好今天又有這個法條如果通過的話六條之一如果第六條或第六條之一通過的話你們應該要有積極的作為啊不要讓第一線的檢察官承擔太多嘛也不要讓打詐的這個風氣越來越猖獗嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11121.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11148.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
可以嗎?好,謝謝主席。有請周二來,周秘書長。秘書長,那兩本書還有那些會議資料有沒有收到?有收到,因為跳在中午就職你也可能去,所以我沒有...對啊,因為當天我晚上的時候去住院,那後來隔天又禮拜六禮拜天,也不能送過去啦。那你很清楚我是針對書,不是針對你嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11150.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11151.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那我問一下你有嚇到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11177.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11189.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
當時是有一個驚訝而已啦。我不知道怎麼處理這個動作啦。倒沒有,但因為有點刮的傷啦。就是不用帶你去修驚嘛。因為不刺耳啦。我還要問你一個實質的問題好了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11197.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11218.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
剛剛鍾嘉斌委員在問說未來的整個立法院公報是一個很重要的關鍵也就是說沒有採取記名表格那採取舉手表決的情況底下依照我們立法院目前的這一個紀錄不管是照片也好錄影也好有沒有辦法判別出來哪一些委員是屬於反對的哪一些委員是贊成的有沒有辦法判別除非你是 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11227.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11250.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
對!對!對!議事人員有沒有可能依照這照片來判讀說哪一個人是屬於贊成或反對有沒有可能?如果要真正判決的話,我們以後立法院公報在公報的文字記錄上面可不可以記錄說哪些人贊成哪些人反對依照舉手表決的情況底下根據判決判斷的一個基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11252.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11272.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
因為舉所表決的方式裡面啦一般來講是不會去考量所以你只會記錄說哪些人總人數哪些人贊成總人數還有哪些人反對總數而已不會用這種方式可是那將來如果找你去那個現場來作證的時候呢你又提供相關資料有沒有辦法作為判決的依據判準的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11281.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11291.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
會有判斷的依據我覺得你要站在一個意識中立的角色不要老是在那邊意識規則轉彎我提醒你你相助過王國瑜你也相助過韓國瑜你要請韓國瑜多學學王國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11298.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11321.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好 謝謝郭委員 謝謝周秘書長跟委員會報告依先前徵得委員會同意於11點半處理臨時提案剛剛11點半時間屆滿本席也有宣告不再受理提案也徵詢大家讓郭委員詢答後我們就進行處理那現在處理臨時提案共1案那宣讀後我們再處理請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11323.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11343.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
臨時提案一、修正本為確保立法院各種會議在議決法律案、預算案等具法律未接法規範之一案時必須依立法院諮詢刑事法第6條等立法院議事規則第35條、第36條及其他相關規定以具具名表決效力之表決方式進行表決批微戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11344.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11358.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
未來若有合憲性爭議時本院委員依憲法訴訟法提出釋憲之申請要件以保障本院解決憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑提案人委員鍾嘉斌、陳俊宇、吳思耀宣讀案比。 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11360.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11384.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
好 那麼因為本席是提案委員我這裡做一個漏就是在倒數第二行以保障本院的那個解決憲政爭議把那個處理解決拿掉了就是以保障本院憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑多了兩個字那個解決是多的好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11386.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11404.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
針對臨時提案請問機關或有其他意見或說明問機關有沒有沒有的話那我們就請問現場有其他意見來先請羅委員志強再請謝偉榮介再請黃委員國昌再委員小林 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11415.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11439.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
時間3分鐘我覺得主席很認真的提案這點肯定他啦針對主席的這個提案我們待會會來討論但是剛剛主席不受理我四個提案當然是以時間因素啦沒有關係我覺得其實主席這個提案如果能夠考量一同把我這四個提案都送進來一起討論的話我覺得更能彰顯我們這次立法院民進黨的偉大 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11440.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11468.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我的提案雖然主席說遇時不受理我再唸給大家聽這個有鑒於第一個提案有鑒於日前發生民進黨及立法委員郭國文在議場內公然以暴力搶奪議事人員之文件造成議事人員摔倒之情形原提案立法院院會未來開會時不得再攻擊議事人員這個也很重要舉手表決要不要做很重要這個也很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11468.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11496.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
不要隨便亂打議事人員這樣子不好啦壞習慣第二個提案介於日前發生民進黨籍立委鍾嘉斌爬上主席台對國民黨立委陳金輝事宜兩次衝撞暴行有不當接觸造成女性立委身心受創心生恐懼原提案立法院院會未來議事時不得衝上主席台用暴力行為來延宕議事並要求民進黨立委鍾嘉斌公開向陳金輝委員道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11497.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11511.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
這個我覺得民進黨下來關心女權下來關心性平下來關心性騷如果我們在這邊也能夠來去表決這件事情我覺得也非常有意義不只是舉手投票不要性騷擾很重要第三個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11512.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11540.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
有鑑於日前發生民進黨立委在議場以鎖門身體情報的方式限制立法院長人身自由不僅造成議事延宕而且有性騷擾之餘原提案立法院院會開會之時不得以任何方式來限制立法院院長的人身自由所以基本上我希望大家能夠尊重院長舉手投票很重要要不要討論很重要但是不要一直去 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11542.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11557.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
憋個然後去騷擾我們的立法院院長韓國瑜這個我想也是非常重要啦那另外就是我們國民禮儀條款今天最好也討論一下為什麼呢從小到大大家知道今天我們要進場要排隊啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11559.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11575.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那如果今天如果想要第一個進場的話就早點排隊啦演唱會什麼都是這樣做啦小時候我在讀書的時候在排圖書館也是這樣做啦那國民黨排隊48小時就民進黨竟然是在開場前10分鐘哇 好兇啊 插隊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11577.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11593.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
一路打記者打議事人員打警察打立委一路打進立法院啦這麼雄壯威武的事情我們司法法制委員會難道不比舉手投票要不要舉行重要嗎所以我也建議啦所以我們鄭家彬這個主席今天不來表決這幾樣但是沒關係我口頭告訴大家不要插隊民進黨不要插隊民進黨不要插隊民進黨很重要說三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11607.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11611.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
好 謝謝羅委員接下來請謝委員凍結發言足夠依賴阿做菜吃心虛阿阿唔好白白補把泥加污 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11637.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11645.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
在現場抽卡錄時薪人他們還把你們抽到回來說什麼時薪人去抽你們的卡所有國民黨的卡錄給你們拿走一個假手標革國會是要尊重傳統去看一個人英國的國會是怎麼做不用廢毒啦廢毒什麼標革本來就有很多種方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11667.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11678.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
難道透費透得白白保障你跟我做什麼、化妙什麼、怕人、化救人這都沒辦法、害怕死誰今天你走出標革這叫做傳統傳統跟創新要並股台灣合情叫做科技之道AI領先全世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11698.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11721.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
一）國會標判必須頂這裏就要注意聽咧。我們有新的工具、新的科技、要標判也好。洗錢做一條法律規定說標判要坐在你的桌子上、坐在你的位。沒有。只要議長在內。所以,立法院我建議必須頂,趕快請我們台灣這AI科技大廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11725.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11730.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
先對立法院來做一個設計每一個你委屈要簽到後（發一條簽款（這個簽款就是我們台灣的科技（喔（標棺我站在裡面都可以標棺（Yes, No, 我都可以洗（我洗肥皮也可以（而且這條AI呢（是屬於你個人的（喔（你要走手也好（你要用手也好（ |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11752.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11768.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
老百姓沒有關你們這裡的立法委員 歐屏康歐到老屏康會也沒關係的 什麼關你們啦但是 標判只要有一個籌款 我要站在標判 我要坐在標判 我只要在立法院我都可以去只要沒有離開議場 離開議場 你的籌款就甘願賣掉 這麼簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11775.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11785.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
每天都要洗這條、洗那條火神不洗背?每天都不弄什麼?洗喀喀是越來越臭啦!不要這樣啦!比較有風度的啦!人家這、銷售尊重得所、銷售獲獎得所 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11793.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11794.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
謝謝謝委員的建議和構想那接下來請黃委員國昌發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11842.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11871.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
謝謝主席喔針對民主進步黨立委所提出來的這一個臨時提案要求立法院院會未來討論法律案預算案和條約案時應採用記名的方式表決不得已舉手表決為之那針對這項啊臨時提案不是這個版本那請問是哪個版本可以發給大家嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11873.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11888.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
所以這個版本是什麼時候抽換的?這個是11點半的時候?所以你們要依照立法院職權行使法議事規則以具名表決效力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11890.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11909.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
表決方式進行表決然後維護未來有憲政爭議的時候然後以保障什麼途徑針對這個提案的內容等一下是不是可以請立法院的秘書長周萬來表示一下意見因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11912.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11929.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
對於立法院議事規則35條所承認合法表決的方式可不可以透過臨時提案的方式予以變更這個是法制上面的重大作業喔如果今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11930.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11955.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
今天要透過臨時提案的方式就可以變更立法院的議事規則的話那以後關於立法院議事規則審議的程序是不是就被空洞化掉了是不是就被空洞化掉了我覺得這個是最關鍵的核心問題第二個我必須要說明的是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11958.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11977.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
會被逼到用舉手表決今天如果沒有人要攻擊主席台妨礙議事的正常運作如果今天沒有人要破壞表決器甚至把其他委員的表決卡抽走破壞整個表決器表決的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11985.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12012.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
哪一個立法委員不希望坐在自己的位置上好好的進行表決記表決你不能夠說一方面我想要去干擾議事的進行我要攻佔主席台我要讓院長讓主席沒有辦法主持會議另外一方面要求別人你如果想投票你要乖乖的坐在位置上 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12013.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12025.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
天底下沒有這種道理意識規則不是為民主進步黨而創設的意識規則也不是民主進步黨想幹嘛就幹嘛以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12028.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12057.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
謝謝黃委員剛剛黃委員又重新把一些條文念了一遍一些提案文念了一遍那謝謝黃委員提醒剛剛在宣讀的時候我先把它說明一下第1、2、3、4、5第5行以據記名表決應該是別字據記名表決效力不是據記名表決效力這邊做個修正那因為剛剛有翁委員登記發言還有吳世耀委員登記發言是不是我們請要發言的委員先表示一下我依序讓大家發言接下來請翁委員小聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12057.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12059.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我看到今天主席的臨時提案讓我真的是覺得這個不可思議 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12078.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12106.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
會議要討論有關於具名表決的這個方式基本上我認為他有兩個大問題第一個就像剛剛前面黃國昌委員所說的一個委員會議的決議就可以去推翻立法院議事規則嗎在我們立法院議事規則第35條規定的非常清楚議案表決的方式總共有五種口頭表決、舉手表決、表決器表決、投票表決以及點名表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12108.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12128.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
舉手表決它就是一個合法的表決方式不要以文害意喔投票是一定要有那個票嗎我們舉手它就是一個最古老最傳統最公開直接透明的一個表達每個委員個人自己意見立場的方式舉手表決這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12134.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12146.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
就像我們講這是個最直接的民主的方式喔那麼是後來因為有現代科技發展然後讓大家委員們可以輕鬆一點坐在委員位置上面這個案這個表決器表決這有什麼不對我要再說今天這個之前吳士堯委員在那裡講什麼這個拿這個表決卡的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12160.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12187.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
剛剛楊瓊英委員播的那段影片就是我本人用手機當場錄下的我在第一時間看到民進黨的幾位女立委直接從我的面前拿走我同伴我的這個委員同志的這個表決卡簡直是不可思議他們怎麼可能會有這樣的一個行為他們有尊重別的委員的職權行使嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12189.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12215.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
他們有尊重議事人員以及把所有的卡都插在上面他們可以這麼做嗎我必須說民進黨的立法院黨團我認為以後可以改以後可以有一個另外一個這個匿名叫做強盜黨團他們既搶周外來秘書長的這個資料文件也搶這個我們其他委員的表決卡嚴重的破壞民主程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12216.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12237.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
議事程序那麼不要二人先告狀我們在講這個民主只要要一看一個國家的民主素養就要看這個國家的立法委員的這個行為表現我們一直在說君子動口不動手可是我們看到立法院民進黨委員的所作所為都是先動手 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12238.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12254.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
他們什麼時候變成了全角政府全角黨團我在這裡真的感到非常遺憾希望就是之後我們立法院可能還必須要更嚴格的修改我們的立法院的議事規則要嚴禁這種拿別人搶奪搶到別人表決卡的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12262.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12277.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
好,那麼在吳思耀委員發言後,我們請周秘書長答覆,那再請莊瑞雄委員繼續發言。你先,對不起。來,在那個周秘書長答覆之後,請副委員再來莊委員。好,請那個吳思耀委員請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12282.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12310.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
主席各位同仁我難得非常同意剛剛幾位委員的論述但是就更好我們可以還好好來看看誰是前後今天說一套然後平時又做另外一套剛剛兩位法學博士黃國昌跟王小林都提到說依據立法院的議事規則可以用一個委員會的決議來超越議事規則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12312.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12336.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這個問題很好那你們先去問一問可以用修法來超越憲法嗎?你們現在所推動的立法院職權行使法沒有關係黃國昌你繼續跑繼續你的善效沒有問題要繼續離場不要落跑回來聽我講啊法學博士只會落跑翁小玲也不要跑啊我會講到你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12337.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12354.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以呢現在國民黨民眾黨所提的國會擴權法案就是用法律來超越憲法不是嗎?剛剛黃國昌說不要讓法制空洞化那麼你們的作為不是讓憲法空洞化嗎?第二個羅志強委員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12356.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12378.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
因為他們沒有跟上今天主席宣告多次11點半的這個登記臨時提案的時間所以他們的4個案子沒有辦法今天來併案審查那我們覺得尊重下一次還有下一次的委員會其實羅委員的幾個提案都可以在下次委員會再透過臨時提案再提出這個程序上是沒有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12379.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12383.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
但如果羅委員這麼重視他的案子沒有被併案的話那羅委員應當將心比心現在的國會擴權的法案國民黨只審國民黨民眾黨的版本民進黨的國會增改革的4個法案完全沒有辦法被併案審查完全沒有辦法被併案協商所以就併案論併案國民黨想要併案的時候就要併案 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12407.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12410.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
然後不想讓民進黨的版本一起來審查的時候就拒絕併案這是什麼樣的邏輯跟道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12415.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12435.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好講到我們鍾嘉斌召委如果那天在肢體的推擠當中對於其他委員有產生肢體上的衝撞鍾委員已經親自多次的道歉而且清楚的說明絕非故意如果國民黨這麼重視國會反性騷那為什麼不讓民進黨的MeToo條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12441.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12444.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
立法院委員立法委員習委法能夠併案審查能夠一起在我們的議事審議的程序當中來落實國會的改革真正的從制度面來反性騷呢?國民黨為什麼不審民進黨的反性騷條款呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12458.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12472.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
又說到有沒有人偷卡翁小林委員走了我實在很想說給他聽剛剛就在今天早上國民黨團的記者會翁小林委員自己說漏嘴他那天偷了民進黨兩個委員的卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12474.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12492.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
王小林委員今天早上在國民黨的記者會所有的發言都被拍下來記錄了誰偷卡王小林委員自己說他偷了民進黨或是抽了民進黨兩位委員的表決卡最後回到這個提案的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12493.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12512.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我們反對舉手表決我們要求記名表決不是為了議事方便不方便技術如何如何而是為了每一個議案國會議員要對歷史負責如果不採取表決器表決卡按鈕表決歷史上誰能夠誰去記載誰支持了國會的擴權 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12517.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12545.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
誰支持了對人民查水表的條款誰支持了這種無限上綱的藐視國會罪透過記名表決是對歷史負責羅志強委員您回來了你剛剛講到演唱會我非常喜歡演唱會你知道嗎在場外抗議的年輕人他們拿著的這個海報說現在連演唱會購票都要實名制了立法院表決居然不用記名投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12546.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12562.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
講演唱會就講演唱會現在連演唱會都要推實名制了那為什麼立法院的委員表決不敢記名投票我剛剛質詢的時候跟私下的時間我有問了州外來委員表決卡有沒有備卡有沒有空卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12564.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12591.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
秘書長說是有的,既然有備卡有空卡,如果有任何表決卡發生遺失的狀況,那難道不能趕快來做處理嗎?謝榮介有人說台灣是科技之島,對阿!台灣是科技之島阿!所以立法院的表決卡難道因為有所遺失就不能夠有備卡跟空卡嗎?這是什麼科技? |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12594.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12597.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至臨時提案處理完畢所有登記發言委員詢答結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12610.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12627.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
並將報告事項所列預算解凍書面報告案處理完畢及討論事項法案條文宣讀完畢為止。接著我們就請因為應委員要求請周秘書長來做回應因為好幾位委員提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12630.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12652.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
時間3分鐘主席各位委員大概修正版本我是看過了但一概而言就是說議事規則裡面的這五款第一款三十五條第一款跟第四款是由主席決定宣告這是主席的權利現行的規則是主席的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12653.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12674.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
以目前來講第5款裡面點名表決才會由委員提出來然後再由主席進行表決目前是這樣修正版本要不要這樣去處理我個人並沒有表示意見是由大家委員去合意 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12675.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12699.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
至於一直提到這個因為剛才郭文有提到一個以將來的宣傳輸送法裏面的室溫之一的問題我想大概應該司法院他們當然會從49樓去看我這就不再說明因為這跟我們沒有很大關聯性至於卡的問題當然我們會有備卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12701.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12703.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。namon |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12719.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12720.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
好接下來有登記的是副總召發言請 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12749.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12777.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
今天我想我們討論這個議題非常有意思周萬來周秘書長周秘書長我想比較重要在這裡未來相關委員所提出來的建議我想都可以討論那剛剛謝榮介謝委員所提出的本席覺得真的立法院要與時俱進 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12779.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12802.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
因為現在在立法院裡面的各種行為啊偷拐蒙騙啊樣樣都有但是表決是非常神聖的事情我想今天鍾嘉賓、趙偉也提出了這個問題我們在這裡正式討論我想這也是好事啦那既然要討論的話未來有什麼樣一次解決的方式其實早就應該進行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12804.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12820.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
所以到底進了立法院以後是不是人人人手上就有一份屬於自己各個委員在行使自己職權該有的一些科技的裝備啊我想早就應該跟上時代不過在這裡對於表決方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12821.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12837.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
是不是韓院長可以來主持來決定事實上議事規則裡面寫得非常清楚本來舉手表決就可以由院長直接來裁示那對於外面講到很多各種不同的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12838.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12866.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
我們還是要在這裡要澄清在國會有191有292雖然各種謠言滿天抹黑各種假消息假訊息不斷的在散播但是我們要清楚的表達立法院各個委員會到今天為止甚至待會兒鍾嘉賓、昭偉所提出的臨時提案都是大家舉手表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12868.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12896.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這裡也沒有辦法擦卡表決也沒有辦法做其他的表決最常用的就是舉手表決立法院從有立法院到今天為止都在舉手表決走到國外有800年民主歷史的英國英國國會到現在都是舉手表決更重要的是全世界共同聯合的在一起的聯合國也是舉手表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12897.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12923.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我想剛剛啊特別強調一個重點因為院長還是有他的苦衷韓院長本期要在這裡清楚再一次表達為什麼非要用舉手表決第一個禮拜五院會的時候民進黨立委當場竊取國民黨立委的表決卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12925.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12950.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
竊取之後然後又指責翁小林委員所有去抽兩張民進黨的卡事實上翁小林委員抽的卡是有交給議事人員是交給議事人員而民進黨抽的卡幾位委員竊取國民黨的表決卡是把它藏起來讓議事人員找不到這些卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12951.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12976.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
所以當天是發生有竊盜的行為而且並沒有交給議事人員才讓院長決定要來用舉手表決更重要的事情是在不管是禮拜二的協商當中還是原本今天下午要的協商當中就希望這個柯建民柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12978.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12994.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
本朱國會議事和諧遵守議事規則立法委員的行為要可受公平希望大家能夠支持接受民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12996.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13023.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
所提出的要求用表有決器表決就是大家都坐在位置上表決本席也欣然同意但是要請柯建民、柯總召堅持拒絕大家一致同意坐在位置上表決不責不得欽贊主席台不讓韓國瑜院長主持會議但是很抱歉柯建民、柯總召悍然拒絕簽署 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13025.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13042.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這樣的一個這個抄以現場的決議讓大家沒有辦法坐在位子上表決也沒有辦法用X卡表決我們把事實還原真相但是我還是很謝謝鍾嘉賓這個鍾昭偉可能未來是民進黨的鍾總昭 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13046.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13061.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
這個最近表現表現得非常大今天也提出這個臨時提案本行政很高興啊因為畢竟這個提案今天在這裡還是要做舉手表決然後做一個決定那未來如果在委員會提的臨時提案可以改變議事規則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13063.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13084.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
本席也欣然接受啦那以後我們都在委員會來做決定也可以少數服從多數好謝謝謝謝副總召因為說明一下那麼在委員會的會議我們還是依照立法院議事規則第35條第36條依照這5種的表決方式行之再次的說明那接下來呢是由莊委員瑞雄要進行發言請時間3分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13104.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13124.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
響鐘響鐘響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13124.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13150.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
看看大家說的都參考用的,也很難去遵循有時候真的是議題還沒有講完,剛才比較久的一直說的,也都合理我剛剛國民黨委員的幾個說明以後上來的講法我是有點感慨立法院只要早上你看還沒有進到議場的時候每一個人都是正常的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13152.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13180.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
進到議場在簽到以後立法院呢小人一堆委員都亂講你像比如說剛我們羅志強委員我看他就語意裡面他就贊成了鍾佳斌這個提案只是說他多想加入他幾個提案這個都是好事但是聽完以後啊今天其實大家幾乎都是在講口水啦你像比如說大家談到說到底誰是偷 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13181.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13196.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
立法院的表決卡不管哪一個政黨的委員去拿到那個表決卡我也不認為是偷啦在場有吳宗憲委員有這麼多法制人員竊盜啊你就看竊盜這320條的規定啊這竊取他人之物啊他人之動產啊那個都不是竊取 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13204.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13231.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這樣我看來啊其實吳宗憲委員很清楚啊那個都是議事攻防啊只是說到底要不要約束做的有沒有超過黃捷委員拿了那個表決卡以後是交給議事人員啦有啦你去看一下影片啦那個影片都有看的不要每一個人去擷取片段到這個地方你找謝榮傑我也覺得他的提案很好啊雖然謝榮傑來到禮拜年以後都胡說八道但是我覺得聽起來很爽啊我也覺得聽起來很爽啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13234.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13245.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
啊剛剛 給我轉動一下 給我轉動一下 來你來給我轉動一下 這個畫面如果齁一般人都認為說他是不是具有攻擊性不會啊 我說他是臉臭臭的 不然你也笑一下 我在講話你也笑一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13260.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13286.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我現在就是要幫你捧場他剛剛有一個提案我倒是非常覺得非常好大家考慮一下他說喔台灣是一個高科技之島掛一個手鍊就好以後喔那個只要感受到的就可以代表你是只有說表決而已你說不夠不不不你這樣不夠你在台南總是稍微是腦袋瓜有點不清楚屏東的就很清楚因為我比較遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13288.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13314.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
你聽我說,你說你這個提案不夠清楚啦我這個屏東的就會覺得那個距離要再拉長齁你過去齁你都說你剛提案高科技要就創一個可以這樣感受的就算可以表決了嘛齁你就整天簽名欸可以只要感受到就算簽名了就不用每天在那邊搭高鐵可以做得到啦啊你這樣你有給我贊成就對了要在院區裡面才感應得到啦我告訴你我們兩個都校尉啊你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13316.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13343.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我要講的就是說你幫你整個樣子臉這麼瘋狂啦都一口水啦中委員的那個我是倒覺得重要的意義在什麼地方呢?立法院議事規則第35條第一項裡面其實我們的表決有兩種你抽象來看真的是只有兩種一種叫做記名一種叫做不記名那你不記名的話你口頭表決當然是不記名不記名當然也是不記名那你表決器就是一種記名 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13344.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13360.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
點名表決也是一種記名記名投票也是一種記名那就怪了就是說你舉手表決你怎麼去定義他的問題各位偉大的政治家其實都可以討論但是相互攻防輸的比較賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13363.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13366.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
人們在說你們成絕身份時,我也覺得比較有可能啦。眾目睽睽之下,我也覺得比較不會說的那個是蘇林的。鍾嘉斌委員那一天那個議事公報裡面,國民黨已經跟他講了幾次什麼他性騷。 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13376.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13382.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我們議場全部的媒體都在那裡。你們就不可以看他是要被起立、被人殺下來、有鑽在那裡倒下去。他衝他那人報到那個,不是翁小玲那個是陳委員嘛。那個怎麼會是姓邵嘛。這個就是睜著眼睛說瞎話嘛。當事人當然會不舒服。不舒服總裁品委員也去道歉了。你們糾結在這裡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13402.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13413.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
這個就是離開議場以後那個要放下,這樣不好啦,亂到這樣。你們在課堂裡面大家是當老師的,難道這個議事工坊學生看到以後會跟你說老師這樣好棒棒嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13415.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13438.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
都必須 都必須 大家來搞禮拜年 大家說刺激激啊 那是上臂上比較壞 不用這樣嘛 還有上面人比上面人比較壞 有啊 你每一個人都背負著民意到這邊來啊 可是問題是進來以後都走路一樣了 立法院真正我覺得有必要修的大家可以建議一下 憲法規定的立法院言論免責權喔 時代不一樣啦 這條把它修掉啦 這條修掉就好玩啦 立法院就不要這樣胡說八道啦 你看 副本局也給他按贊 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13446.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13449.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
他有沒有人要表示意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13469.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13496.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
這樣子啦齁那個在場委員在場委員因為我大概說明一下齁因為這個提案齁我聽了各位委員的心因為我身為提案人我跟大家說明齁這裡面還是有一些要補充的齁就是為確保立法院的意識的公正啦我想意識公正還是要寫上去啦立法院公正在各種會議議決啦齁因為齁我們是委員會啦我再講一次齁為確保立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13496.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13519.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
之議事公正啦齁議事公正放在立法院的之議事公正在各種委員會議決法律案預算案等據法律未接法規範之議案時啦那我想齁這裡說明齁因為我們是委員會那委員會做的決議我們只是各種會議之中的一種那所以呢這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13520.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13535.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
決定一個臨時提案如果通過了他是為了確保立法院之意識公正那麼在議決有限定喔法律案預算案這些具有法律未接的法規範只有在這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13536.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13555.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
案子在議決的時候那我們才是根據立法院職員刑事法制第6條完全沒有去超越還是那第6條就是以過半數同意為之那議事規則第35、36條它分別的規定了可決的額數和表決的方式那表決的方式陳如各位委員所指教的就一共有5種 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13556.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13584.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那這五種呢根據第三層的規定就是第一口頭表決第二舉手表決第三表決器表決第四投票表決第五點名表決那本委員會過去呢向來因為我們沒有表決器所以呢我們也沒有用口頭表決我們都是用舉手表決的方式那有在吳釗偉的時候呢也有曾經通過用點名表決那舉手表決跟點名表決的差別在於說點名表決可以確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13585.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13607.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
啊具有濟民的效果那因為呢這些預算案法律案或者條約案在未來啊如果有合憲爭議的時候根據憲法輸送法我們必須要能夠確定是誰投了贊成還是反對所以呢我這邊再強調一次我們只是一啊為了確保立法院意識之公正啊之意識公正 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13608.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13618.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我們在各種委員會包括就本委員會那我們當然這裡只能就本委員會在議決法律案預算等這些議案的時候要依據這6條36條以具記名表決效力的表決方式為之啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13624.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13645.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那這個是確保我們議事人員在登記這次的議決的過程每一位行使表決權的委員他是贊成反對以記名的方式能夠被呈現出來那這才能未來萬一有需要的一個合憲爭議的時候我們才能確保在 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13647.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13654.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
處理的時候能確保沒有委員的這個情況。好那以上說明。好那是不是委員我們要不要進行就也還發言了嗎?好來請黃委員請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13660.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13679.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
沒有我不是要發言我只是要進行一個簡單的那個會議詢問這個會議詢問的內容是針對目前所提出來的臨時提案我們是不是能夠按照以前處理臨時提案的方式針對臨時提案內容的變更提出修正的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13682.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13710.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我們剛剛發言是要請大家來表示意見。那我現在是可以正式的針對這個臨時提案內容文字的變更提出文字修正建議嗎?請提出,那我們等你提。那委員在這段時間在這段時間有沒有文字上啦,謝謝。那是不是印給大家? |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13711.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13713.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
為確保立法院之議事公正 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13734.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13744.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
在各種會議、議決法律案、預算案等據法律會接法規範制議案時必須依立法院職權新司法第6條、立法院議事規則第3屬條第3條及其他相關規定以據記名表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13752.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13768.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
效力之表決方式進行表決必維護未來若有合憲性爭議時本院委員依憲法訴訟法提出釋憲之申請要件以保障本院憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13769.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13793.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
且未確保會議進行之合法性之合憲性各黨團應切結不得已攻佔主席台阻礙院長副院長或副院長主持會議或強行抽走表決卡之方式破壞會議之合法合憲進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13795.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13822.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那個我們請印給大家啦齁我念過請印給大家那在印給大家的過程我說明一下齁因為我強調一次齁因為呢這個內容啊請各位委員瞭解齁因為我們只是司法委員會的一份子那我們所做的雖然上面講到了各種會議但是因為呢在我們本委員會啊我們是屬於院會授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13823.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13844.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
做審查的一個部門一個單單元所以呢我們基本上的我們的決定是以我們委員會來遵循吶所以我覺得有點跟黃委員說明因為我們做的決定是跟委員會因為我們不可能那如果說我們要做成決議跟院會建議那我是建請黃委員吼是不是另外寫一個跟院會的建議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13845.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13860.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那我們再來處理那因為我剛剛所講的純粹是就各種會議當中為了確保我們的意識公正性在處理相關具有法律案或預算的時候我們要有一個記名表決效力的表決方式大概這樣的說明那請換委員檢查那請 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13863.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13881.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我同意要確保整個會議的合法性跟合憲性以及事後的司法審查因為司法審查的範圍包括會議進行當中是不是有符合相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13883.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13898.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
會不會破壞憲政民主的秩序這個是憲法法庭在針對國會自立事項在進行核限性審查的時候所必要審查的要素那也正是因為這個樣子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13900.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13923.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
為了要確保本院在議事進行當中所為的表決具有合法性也可以通過憲法法庭未來合憲性的審查那顯然我們要關注的事項就不僅僅是到底是不是用字名還是哪一種特定的表決方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13924.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13946.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我們必須要關注的事項還有這個會議是不是合法合憲的進行如果會議要能夠合法合憲的進行的話不要攻佔主席台阻礙院長或副院長主持議事程序不要去偷抽其他立法委員的表決卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13948.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13964.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
導致其他立法委員在行使憲法所賦予的職權的時候遭到外力不當的阻礙這個都攸關於立法院所為的立法行為在憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13964.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13982.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
是不是能夠判定這一個會議通過核限性審查的必要要件因此我們針對剛剛鍾嘉賓委員所提出來的那樣子的一個臨時提案在後面更完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13982.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14002.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
就要確保合法合憲性提出修正的文字我們認為並無不妥那至於說到底是妥還是不妥這件事情我覺得應該是交由司法法制委員會現在已經出席的委員來共同決定而不是主席一個才是以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14003.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14003.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
因為臨時提案一﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14028.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14055.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
好的提案是在講這個記名表決的方式但是剛剛黃國昌委員他試圖要用修正的文字但是去處理了一個另外兩個前提不一樣的東西如果黃國昌委員要再提下面這個部分他應該是另外再提一個臨時提案的而且要許你你你你剛剛宣誓的那個宣告的那個提案時間因為黃委員後面加的這一大段跟你前面在講記名表決有什麼有什麼直接的關聯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14058.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14070.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
所以現在他們用不同的修正文字其實就是在那就另外提一個新的臨時提案啊阿詢臨時提案的程序啊不然這樣沒完沒了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14072.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14094.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
所以我一看就覺得這根本基本把你的原始提案的後面那麼加一大堆而且跟你原本的提議你很簡單嘛你就講說就是表決方式而已嘛後面扯到要不要公佔主席台要不要怎樣有沒有人抽走表決卡我都同意不公佔表決那個主席台啊我絕對同意啊但是是誰去公佔主席台誰昨天半夜又開始去那邊排隊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14095.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14096.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14096.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14124.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
然後黃委員說不可以去抽走表決卡我也絕對同意啊我們就是討厭別人抽走表決卡現在是國民黨抽走別人的表決卡我都同意這兩個啊那你就去弄另外的臨時提案啊它是一個案或兩個案啊因為完全把你的本質都改掉了欸你的提案很簡單是在講表決方式後面又居然什麼公站主席台全部要貨在同一個提案另外循程去提新的臨時提案這樣才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14125.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14154.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
好,謝謝委員我這樣正要說明因為呢後面的文字內容有跟本委員會有些有見的部分第一個是那個公站主席台其實我們過去在委員會有發生的是站聚主席台就是這個地方然後呢防礙院長副院長因為我們在委員會這個院長副院長大概不是指本委員會的會議那表決卡也不在本委員會的使用範疇所以是不是黃委員考慮一下這個內容文字上我們現在講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14156.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14169.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
各種會議就當然以本委員會來談我們的處理重要議案的表決的方式那還是依照我們現有的議事規則跟職權刑事法的方式為之還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14172.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14194.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
剛剛這是一點意見啦您可以參考因為我們這裡沒有表決卡我們這裡也沒有院長副院長我們也沒有什麼公站主席台過去只有主席主持的時候大家在主席台前情況比較混亂而已那是不是委員還要針對剛剛的文字修正部分提出意見來先請羅委員再來翁委員我也要提文字修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14196.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14218.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
我覺得我們眾嘉賓委員很認真用心他說要用據名表決我覺得非常好但是為了考量我們議事順暢我覺得應該要有一個前提設定所以我建議在第二段的就第二行的據法律未接規範之議案10這個10前面加上一段文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14219.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14243.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
在沒有立法委員或任何人為干擾癱瘓意識欲佔據主席台以及偷竊強盜其他立委表決卡以致無法進行投票器表決主席必須以舉手投票的維持意識情況時那你就可以介紹後面的居民表決因為事實上我們必須考量所有的情況嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14244.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14246.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
舉名表決很好阿 非常棒阿但只要說沒有什麼一個那種無賴政黨想要去攻主席台癱瘓議事或者是無賴政黨去搶人家的表決卡在我情況之下當然大大方方任何表決方式我都同意阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14260.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14276.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
可是如果這兩件事情發生你已經沒有辦法進行表決了那當然按照議事規矩用舉手表決我覺得是很好的方式所以為周延起見這個提案要讓他更具憲政跟立法高度的意義我建議把以上的文字加上去謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14278.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14299.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
好不好,因為齁,剛剛有人遞了一個文字修正。是不是我們休息幾分鐘,議事人員把他篡寫清楚,我們才有辦法處理,好不好。我們先休息兩分鐘,那之後我們再問委員。那我們把那個文字齁,騰清楚,大家才有辦法處理。因為這樣文字不清楚齁,接下來要不要怎麼討論。先讓大家休息一下,休息兩分鐘,去上個洗手間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14302.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14312.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共4案。 Minne（一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne（一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne（一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14314.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14326.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
一、處理1、處理2、處理3、處理4、處理5、處理6、處理7、處理8、處理9、處理10、處理11、處理12、處理13、處理13、處理14、處理14、處理15、處理16、處理17、處理18、處理19、處理20、處理21、處理22、處理23、處理23、處理24、處理24、處理25、處理26、處理27、處理28、處理29、處理30、處理31、處理31、處理32、處理32、處理33、處理33、處理33、處理34、處理34、處理34、處理35、處理35、處理36、處理36、處理36、處理37、處理38、處理39、處理40、處理40、處理40、處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14333.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14353.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14360.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14377.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我看如果大家爭議這麼多就讓後面的那個議員請說他說要先走了先趕快表決一下就結束了都已經這樣就表決一下就結束了就表決啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14382.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14386.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
都已經開始了為什麼不表決?沒關係我們先提修正公義以後就表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14398.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14422.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我覺得他會故意脫起來沒有關係阿他要脫你沒辦法我覺得故意阿是阿因為表決一定會出網就故意脫他也人也可以跑掉阿再去休息三小時幹嘛對不對你也拿他沒辦法他也可以人跑掉三小時再回來對啊不是阿你自己提案他他表決吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14425.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14453.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
好我們繼續開會由於我們的登記發言委員還有包括黃委員跟葉委員還有報告事項的解凍案還有我們的法案條件宣讀那我們這案就暫不處理那我們接下來就有請黃國昌委員發言這樣不對吧你提了臨時提案自己又不處理自己的提案不好啦表決一下馬上就結束不用3分鐘好啊這樣就收回去不好啦可以可以我們事前你當時也這樣子不好不好看啊你的提案啊今天不再處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14455.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14466.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
為了讓確認今天不再處理今天不再處理來那個黃委員你要發言勒現在接下來請黃委員國昌發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14468.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14483.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
哎,我們大家在那邊要等表決不給我們表決。這麼好的提案我都支持了。欸,每次都反對自己的提案。對啊,每次都反對自己的提案我不能理解啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14494.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14495.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
確保Tag沒有問題吧?蛤? |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14522.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14537.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
下面拍不到。不好意思。再給我30秒就好了。我稍微調整一下。你要請哪一位上來。我先請他上來。再開始時間。不好意思。要請哪一位?上來我們時間再說。我不好意思讓部長在這邊。要請部長嗎?對。是。請那個部長。有請部長。正部長。還有沒有?就部長。就部長。可以了嗎?委員好。請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14554.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14575.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
部長好今天我們要審議洗錢防制法我相信最主要的理由就是因為幫詐騙洗錢太嚴重了我們要強化整個有關於不罰洗錢行為的規範密度跟廣度對不對是好在整個詐騙之所以會這麼猖獗 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14578.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14605.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
不法的所得之所以難以追回是不是就是因為洗錢所導致的我們是希望能夠犯罪的不法所得能夠查出來查扣然後花還給被害人那不然的話就是要宣告沒收除了把不法所得追回來之外我們應不應該嚴懲幫助不法所得洗錢的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14607.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14631.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
這是我們的目標,立法目標這是立法目標嘛,好那這個立法的目標啊有沒有獲得實踐啊我們就要具體的看因為今天洗錢防制法的修正關於洗錢行為的定義在第二條裡面在第二條裡面重新的做文字的修正嘛有哪三種洗錢的樣態可不可以請部長稍微說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14637.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14663.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
在第二條的部分我們是參考德國的一個立法例齁那在我想這個部分可以讓我們在洗錢的這個定義更加的一個明確齁因為我們是那所以是哪三種樣態看我PPT就可以了啦部長我PPT寫的絕對不會錯啦就是一個隱害演示型齁就是PPT想的演示型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14664.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14692.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
也是行第一種嘛還有勒還有就是阻礙型的跟隔絕型的跟危害型最後才隔絕型嘛好來我們來看一下具體的例子喔被害人被詐騙了以後把金錢交付給這個洗錢犯的首腦詐騙集團的首腦這個詐騙集團的首腦拿了這個錢去跟酒商買了昂貴的酒然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14694.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14716.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
這個首腦跟A共謀把這批酒給藏起來這個是不是洗錢的行為這是一個洗錢的行為這是一個洗錢的行為嗎非常好講得很明確所以我們這一次在洗錢防制法當中針對隱匿特定犯罪所得或掩飾其來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14717.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14733.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
所謂隱匿型的部分來請部長看一下喔就你剛剛所講的參考德國刑法261條第一項第一句的演示型洗錢犯罪我們過去在主觀要件上把它定位成是意圖犯嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14736.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14755.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
現在我們不用意圖犯按照你們修法理由除了客觀上有隱匿或掩飾的行為而且主觀上只要知悉或可得知悉財務或財產上的利益是特定犯罪所得就構成了洗錢是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14755.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14778.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
好 所以你這裡知悉或可得知悉你是把主觀要件降到未必故意還是把主觀要件降到過失我們認為這是一個抽象危險犯只要這個行為的話我們就認為有洗錢的意思抽象危險犯我了解現在我在問你的是主觀要件的部分這是故意犯嘛這是故意犯那可得而可得知悉是什麼意思然後你看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14779.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14807.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
你們的修法理由可得自信就是未必故意可得自信是未必故意嘛好非常好那我今天啊就要公開跟部長我公開檢舉啊一個幫詐欺犯的首腦啊洗錢的行為這批酒是當初我在擔任台灣公益階壁及吹哨者保護協會的時候我在幫IMB的被害人去追出來的酒因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14810.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14834.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
詐騙集團的首腦曾耀峰用詐騙的所得去買了一拖拉鼓的酒藏在一個地方當初有被害人跟我講說有這批酒但他們不知道在哪裡那個時候被害人劇狀請北檢的檢察官去追查北檢的檢察官查不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14836.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14845.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
我後來我自己請我協會的同仁去查這批酒在哪裡查到這批酒以後我拍了照 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14847.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14870.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
舉狀跟台北地檢署的檢察官呈報因為我沒有公權力嘛我不能搜索扣押嘛我能夠做的就是告訴北檢的檢察官酒在這裡請你們去扣押收到我這個呈報狀以後過了幾天北檢的檢察官也真的去扣了這批酒現在這批酒已經被變賣掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14872.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14892.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
變賣所得的金錢也發還給被害人了重點是我們追回了不答我們追回了不法所得但協助隱匿這個不法犯罪所得的所有參與人是不是有被訴追刑事責任這件事情部長你覺得重不重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14897.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14923.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
所以我才要公開檢舉嘛因為當初這個酒藏匿的地點是前行政院政務顧問陳振坤他實際所掌控的旅館的地下室那因此陳振坤在台北地檢署IMB起訴書裡面他依照洗錢防制法被起訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14924.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14943.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
這個是台北地檢署給所有被害人的起訴書我相信北檢的檢察官在您當初的領導下面一定是很認真的在追究這些詐騙洗錢的犯罪行為來請部長看一下我紅字寫的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14943.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14969.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
他說陳正坤為了協助曾耀峰隱匿悉心的犯罪所得提供他小孩位於宜蘭縣宜蘭市木下精品旅館有限公司地下室供曾耀峰藏以犯罪所得購得的葛馬蘭威士忌酒現在這個案子臺北地檢署起訴了在臺北地方法院的刑事庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14970.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14998.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
正在進行審理程序在那個審理程序當中啊我要跟法務部部長報告的是這要那個陳正坤啊幫助洗錢的陳正坤啊他認罪了他認罪了他已經清楚的認罪了因為刑事審判程序是公開的嘛對不對部長是是嘛他在刑事審判程序當中公開的法庭認罪了這個沒有涉及到偵查秘密嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15001.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15020.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
這個沒有對嘛齁好他在認罪的同時他同時講什麼他同時講說這批酒我當初會會放啊是立法委員陳歐破啊把酒交給我的也就是來請部長回去看一下我們剛剛這一個犯罪結構圖啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15023.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15049.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這個詐騙的首腦加上A代為隱匿他詐騙的犯罪所得啊那顯然這個A啊不是只有陳正坤啊因為陳正坤現在已經起訴了嘛他也認罪了嘛那這個A不是只有陳正坤啊這個A還有陳歐珀啊這個犯罪事實公訴的檢察官在公訴立庭的時候應該都知道嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15051.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15055.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
公務員知道有不法的犯罪事實是不是應該要依職權告發? |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15057.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15086.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
那個陳厚破的部分已經立案偵辦了所以現在在偵辦當中嗎不是啊因為我怕啦公訴的檢察官啊當庭知道這樣子的一個犯罪事實的時候他有沒有依照職權告發我不是很確定嗎我現在直接依照我現在直接公開檢舉這件事這沒有什麼偵辦秘密啊這個是在公開法庭當中啊陳正坤他認罪的時候所表示的內容好現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15088.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15107.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
法務部部長您現在當法務部部長了嘛法務部部長可不可以在上班的時間去幫財團的老闆喬斯仁的訴訟以後你如果當部長你現在當部長你會不會這樣做這個不可能嘛應不應該這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15112.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15140.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這個應該大家都知道應該怎麼做才對大家都知道應該還是不應該這個不應該在絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛您當任法務部部長的時候我希望不要發生部長利用上班的時間幫自己好朋友有錢的大老闆去喬他私人的訴訟談和解法務部部長做這件事情不妥嘛對不對這個是第三件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15141.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15168.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
去年去年有監聽的名單外洩出來那個時候調查局、廉政署、最高檢察署三個偵辦犯罪的非常重要的機關聯合發了新聞稿說這是典型的認知作戰說這是典型的認知作戰如果說今天外洩的監聽名單全部都是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15170.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15187.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
然後竟然有人在散播這個假名單當然是認知作戰嘛但問題是裡面散播的裡面有非常多全部都是真的那個時候這個有洩密這個也是在台北地監署在政辦中 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15191.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15203.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
針對目前這個案子台北地檢署的偵辦我要拜託部長齁我不會介入個案的偵辦我只要求一件事情積極查辦因為這件事情很嚴重喔你如果把監聽的名單給外洩的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15205.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15209.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
你會嚴重的阻礙到整個犯罪的偵查嗎?所以台北地檢署會不會公開清楚的跟社會大眾知道裡面是全部都假的還是有很多是真的? |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15228.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15244.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
要還是會偵查不公開的一個作為辦法規定現在偵查不公開嘛但偵查總會終結嘛我希望偵查終結的時候要負責任的跟社會大眾講這到底是真的還是假的如果是真的誰洩漏出去的該不該追查 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15245.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15271.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
好請那個部長說明齁一句話因為時間我想這部分如果偵查結果的話我想台北地監署應該會在一個以新聞稿或者以對外的一個一個說明好謝謝部長謝謝總召接下來有請葉委員元之質詢葉委員元之葉委員之委員不在好所有發言登記委員均已發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時黃委員我們現在人數可能還要馬上處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15274.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15301.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
還有一位來就可以了。謝謝。好。那尊重您的意見。那委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。委員翁曉琳、吳宗憲所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆。現在進行報告事項處理前先請議事人員宣讀報告事項之預算解凍書面報告宣讀後即行處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15303.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15321.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
那麼有關討論事項並按審查洗錢防制法修正草案令定期繼續審查報告事項宣讀過程中與解凍案無關之列席機關代表可先行離席現在請宣讀報告事項第二至六案之預算解凍書面報告案 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15323.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15342.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
報告事項第二案至第五案立法院秘書長函為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送本院單位預算決議一至決議三預算凍結書面報告及決議三十七第六目向下公報行政預算凍結五百萬元書面報告請查抄案等四案 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15343.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15352.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
第六案,行政院人事行政總處函委113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送決議二,人事行政制政策規劃執行及發展預算凍結350萬元書面報告請查詔案。宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15373.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15380.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
因為時間的關係我們先休息3分鐘讓現場的會場人員可以做一些調整因為有些要先行離席3分鐘後我們繼續處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15402.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15404.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
法定人數不足法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15432.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15433.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
二（拒禁 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15438.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15462.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15463.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15479.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
議員議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15479.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15492.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15498.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15514.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15517.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15541.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15544.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15554.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。�一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15579.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15604.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算� |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15649.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15677.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15678.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15701.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15714.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15741.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15750.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15753.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。adequate Procedure 1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15802.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15804.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。arnessle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15806.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15827.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15840.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15843.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15875.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15893.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
議員議員議員議員議員議員議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15895.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15920.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15952.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15959.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會第2、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。namon |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15963.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15985.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
好主席在此先做宣告今日臨時提案一撤回現在進行處理先處理報告事項第二至五案有關立法院113年度預算解凍書面報告案即已列入議程報告並經宣讀做如下決定報告事項第二至五案均准予被查提報院會請問有無異議沒有通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15986.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16009.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
接下來我們接續處理報告事項第6案有關行政院人事行政總處113年度預算解凍書面報告案既已列入議程報告並經宣讀做如下決定報告事項第6案准予被查提報院會請問有異議沒有通過本次會議進行到此議程所列事項未及處理部分令定期繼續審查現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16014.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16028.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹖一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹖一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 |