| IVOD_ID |
159413 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159413 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-20T09:08:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-20T09:20:30+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:21 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0d46fa123f196c73f4aa23c349ee8e693ec8388057f36d62821b00f39ec1a9b485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:08:09 - 09:20:30 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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委員長委員長早我從去年開始就一直非常關注軍公教調性機制的法制化 |
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那事實上這個法治化拖延過久從2018年的時候監察院就具體的指責你應該還記得在去年的時候你們在五月的時候把軍公教調心機制法治化的書面報告送來我那時候問你啊說去年年底因為你答應嘛去年年底以前要把法案送到本院來我還問你說會不會跳票 |
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你說不會跳票 會送到大院來我還問你說年底以前會送來然後你說會 會送來 有送來嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明事實上在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽成行政院而且在12月7號的時候有林政府委員召開會議審查事實上我們現在就等行政院要送到大院來審議 |
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所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎我們40一個一個來啦第一個法案沒有送到立法院來確定嗎對所以是行政院不願意嗎這個現在是行政院在拖嗎行政院他等著要排入整個宴會的議程今天你送來的業務報告啊軍公教調清機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要的工作目標啊所以我看了就很困惑啊現在大家是要打假球嗎 |
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去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來也沒有送來啊現在推給行政院推給行政院以後又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環不斷的演繹持續的演繹不曉得要演繹到什麼時候嘛而且你今天的業務報告你上面有寫軍公教調性機制的法制化嗎有嗎 |
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那個是在上一年上一年寫的那已經在上一年寫的有完成嗎我們就等行政院排入整個院會討論完不是啦我對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去我真的嘆為觀止啦真的嘆為觀止啦去年答應要送來我還特別問你會不會跳票 |
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你還信誓旦旦跟我說不會跳票到現在就是沒看到嘛來我具體的問啦從過去的經驗法則啊如果要等行政院送來我看要等到天荒地老到2028年都不會送來 |
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我進一步具體的問我們針對有關於軍公教的人員待遇調整條例草案台灣民眾黨我們已經正式提案了如果我拜託召委排案審查你們會不會反對樂觀其成還是反對希望等行政院 |
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樂觀其成絕對樂觀其成嘛好第二個重要的問題啊就是公務人員的安慰辦法我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候你應該記得很清楚嘛當初說要調整沒有調整所以去年3月我也肯定你很有擔當啦答應的事情沒有做到你也在司法法制委員會震動道歉我也接受了 |
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我覺得政務官啊應該要像你這個樣子就有擔當嘛我答應的事情沒有做到我鄭重道歉這個是應該有一個啊基本的風範啊而不是東西跳票了以後啊還在那邊東拉西扯不願意負起啊政治責任但是您道歉歸道歉該追的事情我還是會追啦是好保訓會 |
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一樣我去年追保訓會因為真正的主管單位是我們考試院的保訓會嘛那只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總啊去做一個協商我去年追了半天啊保訓會在今年二月的時候終於預告了安慰辦法修正草案這個安慰辦法修正草案人事總處有沒有看過 |
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有 有看過滿意嗎整個過程一直在跟我們討論滿意嗎就是不是滿意的問題是大家兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識這是比較重要所以現在這個安慰辦法是人總也有共識的喔 |
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就是他整個過程我們持續兩方都有高密度的在一起討論我為什麼要先問這個問題啊因為我看了安慰辦法以後啊我跟任市長報告啊我非常不滿意啊我非常不滿意啊我為什麼說非常不滿意剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到嘛 |
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針對於有關於職場霸凌的機制公務人員被霸凌的機制去年的時候我們勞動部啊發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒我們的政府也說啊要改革在這次的安慰辦法裡面我的確有看到啊針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定嘛任市長你看過嗎我也有看過啊你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎 |
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我覺得是要考慮到條文的一個完整性還有可執行性還是蠻重要的好 我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性來看一下第36條規定各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴給予不利的行政處分那我下一個問題如果因為職場霸凌的申訴給不利的處分 它的法律效果是什麼 |
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法律效果事實上當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟啊你不用這個規定我也可以提起救濟啊重點是什麼重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境嘛不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛那你要有法律效果是什麼 |
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385.393 |
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制止他讓他不敢做不利益的處分所以我才問你的法律效果是什麼嘛如果你的法律效果是你被不利益的處分那你自己可以去救濟那這36條的規定那不是形同劇文嗎寫好看的啊你有這條沒這條都一樣啊我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊我有說錯嗎 |
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我這裡跟委員補充一下很重要的這一次有增加對機關首長的一個懲處給他一個責任很重要的就是以前大家等於就是說你按照你的標準程序保訓會的救濟可是機關首長你如果承受一些懲處的壓力他在執行這件事情他會更加的謹慎我具體給你看什麼叫做 |
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不敢給他不利的處分有不利的處分要有法律效果來保証會2021年的時候他們就委託研究計畫就直接講嘛公務人員安慰辦法因為在公務人員保障法19條的授權規定裡面沒有給他有強制性的作為沒有處罰的規定沒有罰則沒有用嘛你們今天修了安慰辦法但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣啊長得還是一模一樣啊 |
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你們結構性的問題修了這個安慰辦法一樣沒有解決那針對有關職場霸凌申訴的部分台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌防治法我們已經提了專法透過專法來加以處理任市長贊不贊成基本上我會尊重那個委員的一個提議第二個我更進一步具體的問 |
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518.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
不可以做不當的差別待遇喔你如果做不當的差別待遇因為申訴接下來有行政法環的規定這才是有法律效果嘛法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛你不能做什麼事你如果做了什麼事接下來會有什麼法律效果但是你們的安慰辦法根本沒有啊你們的安慰辦法完全沒有啊跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
519.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
537.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所指責的缺點長得一模一樣啊這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成不過我這裡要跟委員報告在整個公告版本之後我們在跟保訓會談的時候事實上有加入那個裁罰的部分規範在第幾條你說你們有加入裁罰的部分嗎規範在第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
549.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
559.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
保障法本身對嘛 就不是安慰辦法嘛所以我一開始我開宗明義就請教你那個安慰辦法你看了你滿意不滿意嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
560.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
589.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我看了以後我就很直接跟人事長講我看了就不滿意為什麼看了不滿意沒有辦法解決問題所以你們現在重新協調過了以後現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎現在是公務員保障法跟安慰辦法同時一起處理這樣兩邊來確保當事人的一些潛意確保還有給機關所長我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
590.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
607.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你公務人員保障法修完了以後你的安慰辦法才可以有牙齒這存在很久的問題剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打PASS我就在問說你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法你的同事一直在那邊點頭你可能沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
608.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
628.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們同步在進行我跟你講這種事情所謂同步在進行公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話你去處理安慰辦法一樣沒有辦法解決問題現在我一個最關鍵的問題公務人員保障法的修法草案這個會席可以送來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
634.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
647.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個考試院我們了解的是安慰辦法大概四月底五月初會送到六合院來備查啦對啊 但現在問題就出來了你公務人員保障法沒有修你的安慰辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
648.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
665.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
就還是一樣按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安慰辦法一樣沒有牙齒阿阿你剛剛又講同步阿現在又說4月會先被查保障法應該現在前序部也同時在找相關機關在訂阿我這樣講好了啦有的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
665.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
691.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
一些不幸的事件發生的時候,社會輿論會很強烈政府機關會信誓旦旦的說要做什麼事情但是往往新聞過後,沒有人在意了沒有人在意了你們的腳步,是不是有真的做到當初承諾的,就需要追蹤而我的習慣,我相信任市長應該非常熟悉我的習慣是我一定會追到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
692.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
720.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我一定會追到底這個會期喔這個會期針對有關於公務人員保障法也好針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法治化也好我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來你們東西如果不送來我會拜託召委排審因為台灣民眾黨黨團我們全部修法的版本全部都提出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
721.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
737.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
從公務人員調薪機制的法制化到職場霸凌的專法到公務人員保障法我們全部都提出來了我希望喔到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延可以嗎會朝這個方向努力好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員 |