| IVOD_ID |
159349 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159349 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-19 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-19T10:47:41+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-19T10:58:28+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:47 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8d38b5835bd9f317f5a34583edacdd4128962b2f3400241f64a089865aff813835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:47:41 - 10:58:28 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次公聽會（事由：召開「債務人保險契約價值的強制執行爭議（俗稱保單抵債）保險法該怎麼修？」公聽會） |
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首先非常謝謝召委安排非常有意的公聽會,為什麼?因為可能這個公聽會的始作俑者是我本人,但是我聆聽了各位學者專家的意見之後,我卻陷入了一種不知道該採取哪種見解才好的一個困境。為什麼?這就是公聽會的用意。 |
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公立會讓各方各面的見解各方各面的利益都能夠呈現但是最終呢我跟趙偉一樣我們在未來的財政委員會要去決定法律要往哪個方向走這就是未來的難題在我們這裡那索性呢今天這個難題的問題啊在本委員會 |
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因為保險法的修改是在財政委員會但是今天這個保單解約的俗稱保單解約的問題卻是由司法法制委員會收到司法體系的呼喊我們開始去進行也剛好本席在 |
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去年兩個會期都在司法法治委員會剛好就是大法庭的裁定開始產生了司法部門的壓力的時候我們才發現這個問題來自於幾個方面那我想剛剛延續趙律師我剛剛聽了包括幾位學者都很有道理就是我們要去衡量的這個法治上的設計我們要衡量誰的利益比較大 |
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是性侵的被害人,車禍的受害人,還是融資公司收到的一些不良債權,他要求去清償。回到本質的問題,剛剛幾位教授都講了,保險到底是避嫌人工具,還是理財的工具?我想連保險公司,連買的保單的人,都意見不一樣。 |
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因為有太多種不同類型的保單到底它是理財的成分多還是保障的成分多我想這就是因為今天的保險局今天今晚會困難的地方我們有辦法去確定說這個是一個保障型的保險所以不應該作為一個金錢債務的債權的一個抵債的對象可以這樣子嗎還是明明買來保險的人他本來就拿來理財的剛剛有一位說得很好一位研究人說這是一個財產傳承 |
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所以到底我們的保單它是在風險發生的時候對於受害者那種風險的填補還是作為藥保人本身他的考量他的財產傳承或移轉或者年金保險他在不同的時代對於自己本身的財務承受能力跟風險承擔能力他做一個配置這個都有很多問題那我們來看一下那保險公司為什麼今天大把庭會找上了我們保單呢 |
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因為保險公司至於基於財務的操作他將遠期即要兌現的他提列了一些準備所以我們說保駕金或者解約金基本上是保險公司基於受理這張保單 售出這張保單他進行的財務規劃所呈現反射在這張保單上所謂的解約金或保駕金 |
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這是來自於保險公司的財務調度的計算啊但是因為這個計算很明確啊所以就變成債權人可以去跟法院請求啊既然他有保假金有解約金那就是要保人的財產那大法庭接受沒接受啦剛剛的律師講很有道理啊這個財產權這個法律上定的很清楚嘛所以大法官做了裁定但是大法官有沒有想到後果是什麼 |
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後果是這個大法庭的裁定先累死了司法機構多少案件量 |
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我們看看銀行40萬件資產管理公司18萬件其他人49萬件總數77萬件請問台灣的法院系統有辦法去承擔嗎剛剛相較於趙律所說的那麼多的受害人那麼多的案件其實還沒輪到這些案件啊單單是這些要求強制解約的就已經累死了我們法院的民事執行處累死了我們行政執行署的這個行政執行署了那為什麼會這樣子 |
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有人戲稱啊這個大法庭的裁定呢提供了一個討債公司減變的提款機他只要呢向保險公會 社會保險公會提出說我要查詢債務人有哪些保單欸 就馬上吊齊了這保險公司的保單然後呢 |
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261.584 |
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再到法院裡面就成為俗稱討債公司他要的不多耶三萬五萬他也要耶 為什麼他承接了這些不良債權能要個十萬 他當然要啊結果我們本來大法庭所想像的程禄剛剛 包括葉教授所說的很多可憐的債權人他看到 眼睜睜看到這可惡的債務人啊透過這個理財工具去說是避險 其實是什麼 是避債 |
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290.174 |
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結果為了這些人我們讓他成為一個強制執行的標的後造成的結果試問有多少案件要求強制解約的是這一種拿很多張保單來避債的所以我們最後還是要根據案件的量來思考我現在很快的給大家看一下保險的內容跟趙委員往下 |
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314.096 |
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340.312 |
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就大家討論到比例原則再往下看有的是醫療型的大家都討論了再往下看有的人呢是要把人物理重新投保我現在很多來找我們立法委的民眾都這樣再往下看受益人那請取私就保險金的權利所以呢就有老師說我們來弄個一個介入權所以我覺得根本最後面的還是要問的是我們解決求助我們的民眾所以我特別呢也把我們的這個那個消費者對我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
342.401 |
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369.906 |
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平均中心要找來我過去你往前跳我們經歷了這麼多這麼多過去我本人在不同的委員會我們都透過了這些方式去尋求解決那麼我們看到了在2024年5月就是去年的時候這個保險法排入了議程往下看所以我們曾經過去有主張過金融要怎麼樣金融消費平均中心要如何金環會如何如何這些主張回到最後 |
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370.706 |
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397.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們就是要就教於我們學者專家收集這麼多意見是不是我剛剛聽到幾個可能的方向就是因為我本身不是法律科班但是我知道法律人最難說一個舉證之所在敗訴之所在舉證責任反轉我剛剛有聽到幾個這樣的意見也就是說債權人如果認為債務人有明顯的透過保險契約來逃避他應付的責任的時候是否應該由債權人來舉證他跟法院請求 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
398.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
419.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為只要是金管會 只要是保險局 明訂什麼中老型保單啊 可以豁免馬上我們就有個廣告 必在保單因為保單的設計多重啊 個五要花八門啊絕對趕不上我們法律的設計 絕對趕不上我們保單產品的設計啊每次一個新的保單發出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
420.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
449.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
只要說法律上到底認不認定它是在我們這個請求權的豁免範圍之外只要是有人認為是是保險公司會宣傳說我們來發行一個必在保單大家都要買啊因為國人把保單它當作是保障工具還是那個理財工具太分歧了所以呢 適度上我們應該慢慢地收斂怎麼收斂怎麼樣抓住我們主要的這樣的標的我們是要減量因為司法是各量橫著 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
450.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
473.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
行政才是通案解決我們用一個通案解決但是不能去妨礙到司法個案橫著的這個原理所以我是覺得在這個通案這個解決的過程當中我們把一些原則定出來但是我們保留給個案衡量由權力人去跟法院主張現在剛好相反因為大法已經裁定了所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
475.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
504.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這樣的一個個案衡量它變成是通案解決為什麼法院那麼多案每個案都要請求法官來裁定嗎裁法官才沒有那個生命呢為什麼因為大法庭的裁定太簡單了嘛但是他寫的很簡單啊他寫什麼他寫說必要時啊執行法院必要時得合法執行命令終止債務人為要保人資人壽保險契約啊必要時這三個字它就是個案衡量的精神嘛但是現在在民事執行上是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
505.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
533.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個必要時都已經因為債權人他也覺得他不要跟你爭議啊就很簡單嘛 你解約金 保障基金多少我要了就走嘛今天是真的是說有很多的債權人被一個可惡的債務人用保單倒債 逃債之後他們來跟法律請求訴訟嗎其實不是啊實務上的狀況我們看到前面的案件量來自於保險銀行的我們看到最前面齁有多少件銀行的是40萬件欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
536.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
554.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
然後呢,資產管理公司的結緣,18萬件耶什麼叫資產管理公司?就討債公司嘛他拿了一些不良債權之後,他只要查一查對不對,跟授權公司繳了一筆費用他就可以調到這些債務人的所有的資料了嘛我每張保單拿回個5萬要不要? |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
555.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
572.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
可是對眾多的被保險人、眾多的受益人產生這麼大的衝擊這就是我們今天立法院要解決的問題啊所以我今天也很難有個結論啊我聽了這麼多修者專家都講得很有道理我覺得回過頭來思考我們要解決的是量的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
573.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
595.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
未來的法條的設計怎麼樣讓這個量能夠回復它應有的量所以包括舉證責任反轉包括債權人的請求應該是回復到個案橫著的方式而不是用通案解讀的方式讓債權人一些不同的債權人輕易的都可以用這個保單解讀的方式來要他的金錢利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
596.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
607.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那同樣的保險局今晚會這邊要思考保險公司的經營他的保單的生計層出不窮我們有辦法去避免保險公司推出了逃債保單嗎很難啊所以我們怎麼樣去訂定原則將各位學者專家的意見我們整個條文當中我覺得我的目的就是一個減量怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
624.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
645.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
讓規劃處理流程出境案件減量我想這也是司法院也熱見的也是我們授權工會所熱見的也相信是我們修改這個法我們不要去抵觸一些基本的法理原則後我們所要達到的實際目的以上 謝謝好 謝謝嘉賓對保險法的一個投入跟努力那接著我們請人壽保險商業工會 |