| IVOD_ID |
15928 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15928 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024051758 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-17T14:58:26+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-17T16:56:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:57:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0f43c3fffc0f3f32dbe1d8f9e76b2d6a43be8d109af184be414d6dd4dafd6eccc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-17T12:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：議案協商） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:58:26 - 16:56:00 |
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好,副院長、周秘書長、各位黨團幹部辛苦大家請大家表示一下意見好,柯總統請院長、各位行政代表我在這還是要誠懇的拜託大家國會是大家的 |
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國家也是大家的,大家一起要維護,這個是重要只要國會變成亂無章法,也不依法行事,也沒有程序爭議,那這個國家的民主是個晚歌,是個結束 |
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所以在這裏我還是很誠懇呼籲韓院長今天你的角色是最重要的我認為你有能力來解決這個爭論議長就是條和頂賴你執行新法就規定很清楚議事爭端所以這個議長我認為議長的最大功能是譴責這譴責在你受傷的時候 |
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還有應用能夠把所有的干戈的全部化解我們現在在這裡重申就是說要有程序爭議要有依法形式並沒有所謂存在的立法院執行新法不會存在所謂的一個一道馬上表決過去沒有這個案例那我們今天破壞以後你看現在的國會是怎麼樣是南白過半 |
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2409.356 |
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我們就舉國會改革方案就好了我們版本二一不併入審查也不併入重視監獄毒 也不併入超人協商換言之只有你們一個版本你們版本是在立法院是怎麼樣通過的通過是大家都很清楚嘛但是事實上有三個東西 為什麼 |
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2427.588 |
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這是我們也沒有辦法永遠要走下去這樣人事多數要走下去內容只有大體討論你不能說我們給你的大體討論因為法院執行權是憲法所賦予的不是只有大體討論 |
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要主調討論討論結果不行委員會的操作協商委員會的操作協商沒有問題當然交付給院長協商這時候在這個地方我們做了多久 |
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2447.583 |
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2461.291 |
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每一個人都在這個地方做過然後再簽協商結論怎麼發言總共幾條幾條要發言幾條不發言有時候大路頭法案都是一直精簡 |
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2462.972 |
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2487.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
本來留十條,再談一次留八條,再談一次留三條、留兩條竟然能夠在議會表決以前,大家能夠談到一個有共通的地方這是國會,這是國會但是這個程序有沒有?沒有啦洪昌中院在這裡我還是要談啦初委、委會、朝委、協商、幹事長、書記長都過去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2489.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2516.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因為我當了這麼久的總召,我不會去參加委員會的草野協商因為壓到最後不行的時候,只要他們協商好,我看可以就簽名盡量尊重委員會中心主義到最後不行的時候,我一定會參加而且,誰傳誰到這是我們國會進行這麼久來,大家所維持的今天這個協商不是互相指揮誰對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2518.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2538.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
但是顛倒思維的話 智慧的話 最好不要再講了洪凱 你說我們索尼盲 因為我知道你很辛苦排了三天 過去我們這樣排過那排的目的是什麼 最早的立案前 以及這個法案前 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2539.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2566.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
能夠在議場處理的時候能夠有優先訊息是要讓議會要開的你們現在排一排是不讓議會開那我看不出什麼手留房的東西今天早上七點要進去的時候既然有警察站在這過去沒有了警察可以站在議場門口 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2569.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2574.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
進去以後的議場能夠讓議員黨立委不能進去這相讓嗎今天整個議場都有多少警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2583.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2605.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因爲你的議長後面我看一看那早你快到了前面有十個警察站在那裏沒有人會對你動手的大家都非常尊重你所以中共共同防衛是不對的我每個都在默契我曾經看過1990年的時候當季熊打 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2611.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2624.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
梁素蓉打他,梁素蓉叫警察進來把張立雄拖到朝野圈打,然後再拖出去胡錫進也是這樣,盧修昱就是這樣被處理的這民主這一頁已經翻過去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2631.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2645.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
國安院議長當院長的時候,立法院在什麼中途他絕對不會動用警察錢所以這一部分請院長要善思大海之水是疏導的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2647.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2676.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
防堵都是沒有用的防堵委員、護法委員、完整委員告訴你你說我協商那你協商,你立法院以後就走掉了這樣就過水只要你照你2016在實在意義上的那種個性絕對是草翻天可是你今天怎麼變成完全這個基本的基本的這個道義以及責任以及的規則你自己可以翻 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2678.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2700.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
早上幾點已經十分的時候,我也要送案,所有人都進去了同時我在你後面,我要送案,要簽名,要簽到我站在你後面你怎麼回頭就大罵我?我插隊,站在後面的人怎麼插前面的人隊?和你一點關係都沒有,你看我激情的演出,實在是弄我很詫異 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2702.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2728.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
現在報紙可以寫到說我打黃國昌 什麼時候打黃國昌所以我今天要把這個事講清楚風情委員你講說你叫委員長來 你都要協商他哪有那個時間這是院長職責啊院長怎麼有兩個職責 國會外交 外賓一個是主持條約定來 主持委員會的結婚委員會的結婚 委員會的結婚院長不會介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2729.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2748.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
到委員會那種成績就是院長的成績這是國會能夠運作這麼久以來所謂最根本的今天假如這樣的話我要回答一句話國民黨會員局以及法務長一直講說國會改革民黨八年不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2749.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2766.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以這八年內,國安黨沒有參與法院嗎?八年前黃國昌你也在會議六個月我們經營所的作為唯一,二十年來沒有做過,一直沒有注意在國安黨時代來說,這是五八五十前,國會掉大錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2769.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2794.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那是2004年的時候我引前提案到憲法法庭到憲法法庭當初參加憲法法庭的有游秦偉 魏宇雄還有現在兩位已經變成大法官在法庭自由那撕出來有調查權那時候在想說這調查權應該是監察案的我們要如何分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2796.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2817.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以這時候要修的時候沒有把事情的因應清楚我們也不敢修我們不敢修有題版本不敢修什麼都可以過啊但是這種對於這個法律的簽譽原則以及公平性相關人的衝突我們要想清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2818.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2844.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
於是乎就這個其他包括現在院長我已經告訴你很不好意思議員組織法第三條院長必須行任作例以及出入政堂都是我們修的直播也是直播主流也是我們修的差不多可以想像的合理的都修但是衝突性的我們不斷的處理幫他聽證等等所以今天不是說我們辦案前做不到你們來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2846.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2860.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
王永凱發言前這晚間發言國民黨沒有在立法會嗎?你們有沒有提國內改革呢?王永凱發言前也在嘛怎麼說民進黨發言都不做我們應該做的都會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2861.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2883.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
國會改革1993進來到1999年是紐約雙方院長最大的公道他把國會改革無法全部做出來因為我們那個時代你還記得嗎東吳洞就是議會的時候就是要確定議事務就來一個成績問題然後意大利人就排在那裡等著成績問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2884.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2903.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
委員長講各位偉大政治家,程序沒有問題,不要一直程序問題,但是要尋求發言的機會,所以才有後來的國務卿論壇,委員大家要講,比方美國玩命的speech,大家講一下,一天沒人來,大家講 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2905.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2925.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這是一些國會改革引發的原來那今天整個國會改革包括我剛剛講的七十一條之一之一就是已經改過才是七十一條七十一條本身是委員會朝委員會四個月你有結婚以後你應急處理不是馬上處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2927.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2952.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以才有六十八條院長來處理嘛那六十一因為改過,四個月改一個月所以大家要懂得法律今天我不在這裡講故事,一老賣老這是一個很重要的現真時刻至於各位所提的藍本跟陳克勤講學生完畢以後,願讀書表決書就是書 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2954.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2978.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
問題就像說你們要提釋憲連往提釋憲的刑律這憲法規定 憲判都規定的因為有法院31本人31改31就可以提釋憲你們要提什麼釋憲這個很奇怪他一直忘記了他變成國內對大黨安防國防加起來聯手掌控臺灣轉動世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2981.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2994.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所有的他都等到會去這沒有安排會去嗎所以我感到非常憂心啊你們聯合起來把整個知識都破壞掉這樣呢我們不會擔心所有康文博大法案都被修掉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2996.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3017.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以您應該好不容易這樣改過來而且國民黨說違憲、逆施憲、核憲憲你們現在突然要叫停反應改整個國家太多的地方你們一直在把它顛覆這是一個國家最危險的時刻當一個人有權益的時候他手中掌握的權益不是他可以揮左揮右 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3018.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3042.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
而且交給一些EQ不是很平衡的人我站在後面就跟你們我在插隊你們兩個在主導這是非常可怕的事情完全就是說為所欲為能夠可以經過自己過去的價值那是我想講的我們老朋友這個各個案組會也被他處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3044.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3072.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你就是今天要處理這三條 大家知不知道 上次發言 那人數在講很快就結束 剩下完全沒有協商的照額錢以及民事國會罪一大堆 也有所謂的要聽證會 要對官員來聽證的任免也有所謂這個列不歡迎人物 不審理的預算法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3073.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3098.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
自己發明的全世界獨有的沒有的法律完全和憲政體制衝突這當然不會讓人擔心嗎?所以今天還是要講一樣的話我們今天是在戒罪我們等一下也要衝突還是香港要說話清楚要尋求解決方案我相信院長你心中應該也發誓 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3100.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3124.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
只要真的不能解決 冷靜下來禮拜還有每天 因為禮拜養殖宴會你們希望的東西 我們可以跟你好好協商包括發動快 包括環島高鐵 都是一樣的可以說做一個協商結論出來可以表達 突然之間說下個政府再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3126.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3150.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
已經起來兩次你這段而且發法委員通知是索償多一條通通既然在最後的時刻新政府再來我們認為這個波特行政院的潛力難道新政府會同意嗎?不可能啦這不是你只能轉來轉去通通條例也違所以法院真的講 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3152.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3166.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
當然剛才有發生一些事情在這裏戶主不適合都是枝節末端的事情今天最重要臺灣的民主還沒有維繫臺灣的國會還沒有維繫只要這樣的違憲亂政就國會保修了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3173.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3182.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
昨天到人道差不多那香港話這不是只有臺灣的問題全世界在臺灣投資的外商全部要看待這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3184.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3203.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
美國你會注意,台灣本本是這樣,有外媒就是要來訪問我,叫我出來開國際記者會,我說我們會解決的,所以我們要解決,是全球緊張,那是最緊張最後的棋惡就是院長贏 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3205.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3232.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
要翻轉你思維就是胡文綺跟黃國昌我希望你你能夠問這問題談出一個道理出來不是還在說你插話我插話老是轉到這個地方去然後跟你講法律你說這個你也不理那這個我們再怎麼走下去呢還是最後還是懇求大家良心來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3234.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3249.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
不過我要澄清一下昨天下午的朝夕協商黃國昌總召並沒有說停黃國昌總召希望透過我的嘴巴再一次確認在前一次的時候我是不是曾經說過等新的交通部長報到之後我們再來協商環島高鐵的問題我說是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3252.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3252.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3270.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3284.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
也經過藍白國民黨民主黨他們同意所以黃國昌總召昨天下午就要再從我的嘴巴再次確認我曾經是不是說過我說是的我說過如此而已不是他的這是過去對他過去對他一個片段但是是你有這樣想但是你還是照照他的協商我們還是協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3293.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3294.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
接下來國民黨團有沒有寶貴意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3322.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3324.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
請紅毛愷書記長謝謝院長剛剛柯建民總召15分03秒的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3330.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3330.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3361.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3384.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
六波的衝突每一次都是民進黨團的委員先動手為什麼動手就是民主嗎動手就是比較大聲講話嗎動手就有權利嗎而且更重要的是剛剛柯總召特別有提到說警察的部分到目前為止我認為院長非常的中立都還嚴守我們立法院最後的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3387.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3412.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
國會議場的秩序沒有警察進入到議場而剛剛發生了一件即便過去到現在幾十年來國會有所謂衝突都是委員對委員從來沒有一個委員對議事人員但我們居然看到剛剛民進黨籍的郭國文委員直接對著秘書長人身攻擊衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3414.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3441.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
秘書長高齡70多歲專業的文官郭國文委員直接把秘書長壓在座位上從秘書長的懷中把秘書長的資料搶去這是什麼意思什麼時候民進黨的委員可以在國會裡面連議事人員都不放過為什麼我想請教為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3443.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3467.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
民進黨黨主席賴清德受議嗎?要你們這樣做嗎?柯總召講那麼久,我不會發言那麼久因為我來這邊,我認為有理行騙天下我只想請教,今天國會是比人頭還是比拳頭?請民進黨的代表告訴我們,國會是比人頭還是比拳頭? |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3470.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3493.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
國會是今天沒有照你們的意思就是要衝突就是不肯讓議事繼續進行是這樣嗎?剛剛兩點多我們協商結束之後在議場後面的院長休息室有高達七位的民進黨的委員把議長休息室的門給鎖住 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3495.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3509.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
不讓我們幾位代表從議場休息室出來包括院長跟副院長這是什麼意思這是什麼意思所以我們現在在問 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3511.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3540.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
院長今天非常的中立今天的討論事項第一案第二案第三案就是國會改革的法案也已經經過協商4月16號出委員會5月8號吳宗憲召委召開協商都已經完備相關的法律程序我再強調一遍2024年4月16號出司法法治委員會5月8號吳宗憲召委召開協商等等如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3542.059 |
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等一下不能處理議事人員不會讓我們處理如果等一下可以處理議事人員就會依法來進行處理這個不用爭不用爭你對還是我對這是我一開始在上一段協商的時候我就講過的如果說今天有任何議事的規則法令的規則我們沒有確定請議事人員請秘書長直接講明 |
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那等一下我們看起來是沒有一個結論因為柯總召剛講了15分鐘他聽起來就是只要不照他的意思做那就是反民主就是沒有辦法繼續進行下去但是我們認為今天既然很負責任的提出案件而且也已經完備所有的程序包括4月16號出委員會5月8號已經協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3595.168 |
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3612.735 |
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沒有辦法達成超越協商的共識之下只能按照議事規則做後續的進行所以我們也希望站在議事合法合憲合規定的情況下面我們就來這樣做但是我們完全尊重剛剛院長提出來的 |
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3641.206 |
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進行方式院長提到了大體討論每個黨團各派三位代表逐條發言每個黨團推派一位代表我們競表同意我們也認為能夠讓所有國人透過我們的發言看到我們對於每一條法案的一個專業跟堅持我覺得這是好事所以我希望各黨團等一下就針對院長所提出來的方案來進行 |
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3643.018 |
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3660.45 |
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同意或不同意讓國人都清楚明白我們各黨團的立場如果真的沒有辦法有協商結論那真的我們已經浪費太多時間而且六波的衝突我最後強調沒有一次衝突是我們發起但是如果還要再衝突的話國人都在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3664.858 |
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3674.588 |
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民進黨﹚黨主席﹚即將就任的總統﹚你願意讓國會持續的有史上最大規模的衝突嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3686.09 |
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3707.902 |
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謝謝院長之前在黨團協商的時候我相信院長可以理解台灣民眾黨基本上都是針對院長所追尋的事項表達我們的看法即使柯建民先生常常莫名其妙的 |
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3709.321 |
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3724.397 |
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在扯一些其他的事情甚至扭曲事實指鹿為罵我也很少利用這個協商的場合再去回應因為我知道這個時間是屬於大家的 |
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3729.289 |
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針對院長在上一次協商的時候您所提出來大體討論每一個黨團推派一到三名的代表主要討論每一個黨團推派一名的代表這樣的處理方式我在上一次協商最後的時候我說院長我有幾句話想說你說已經結束那我尊重 |
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3754.307 |
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我事後很清楚的跟院長這樣我們同意我們同意院長的裁決只不過說很遺憾很遺憾非常遺憾我們在上一次的協商結束了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3775.663 |
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3795.52 |
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沒有結論我們覺得應該要下去依照程序來加以進行所以我剛剛在台上聽到院長再度宣告說三點半要協商的時候其實我們是有一些不解也有一些困惑 |
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3797.242 |
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3818.882 |
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但基於對院長的尊重我們現在坐在這邊表達我們的看法我具體的回應剛剛院長所提出來的問題就接下來要進行處理的方式那至於其他的事情我們不多談但 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3820.163 |
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3846.094 |
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有一件事情我們剛剛在議場當中我跟所有在場臺灣民眾黨的立委我們討論過一件事情因為當時在場的立委共同目睹了一幕讓人無法相信的景象竟然有立法委員以粗暴的方式來對待立法院的秘書長 |
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3848.167 |
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3850.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
從他手中強行搶奪的東西以後 拔腿就跑周秘書長 中立的協助議長 協助院長主持議事何錯之有 何其無辜 到底是什麼樣的心態 |
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3873.105 |
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3877.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
會對一個70多歲大家都敬重的長者動手臺灣民眾黨黨團所有的成員無法忍受無法忍受這樣的行為這絕對不是依法行政 |
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3900.06 |
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3903.143 |
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這也絕對不是什麼程序正義我們到目前為止我再度的說明我們非常尊重院長在議事主持上面我們也知道院長的努力但是有的時候 |
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3926.092 |
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3952.352 |
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院長可能面臨的問題不要被人軟土生絕我知道院長的苦衷但是如果這樣的手段可以得逞的話請問哪裡是盡頭哪裡是盡頭因此我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3953.823 |
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院長就依法主持議事那針對院長所提出來的那個建議大體討論各政黨代表人數逐條討論各政黨代表的人數我們都同意院長所提出來的建議以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3981.617 |
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3991.025 |
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首先回應黃國昌總召我們是在台灣自由民主的台灣不是在中國所以柯建民他是委員是總召你不用稱他柯建民先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3991.505 |
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3991.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
來來去去 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4016.314 |
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4030.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
就是您往往是最不尊重協商的就是黃國昌所以為什麼你一直在說協商很重要怎樣可是最常常不尊重協商跟不尊重院長的往往就是黃國昌總召而這就發生在剛剛洪孟凱委員一直說的立法院職權行使法吳宗憲召委確實5月8號召開了黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4041.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4058.019 |
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但是全文有68條但是那天吳宗憲、昭偉、我跟瑞雄是全程在場的他只進行了4條就停了為什麼停呢?因為黃國昌總召又再次甩頭走人先離席了 |
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4059.136 |
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4074.674 |
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所以吳宗憲、昭偉就順勢說有在野黨的代表已經離席了那我們沒有協商的必要了所以那天68條的我跟瑞雄都排了整個下午空下來的時間就因為黃國昌總召的提早離席68個條文應當逐條協商的只進行了4條 |
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4079.636 |
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4079.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
李慧琼議員 |
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| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
有這種課嗎因為一個翹課的學生而讓整個課就沒有辦法上這是什麼道理剛剛黃國昌總召說支持院長依法主持議事我要說其實正是你們在逼迫院長不依法主持議事依法主持議事是應當完備協商的程序這個我就不再贅述院長回過頭來我想跟您分享一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4125.782 |
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4128.425 |
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今天還有可以處理下去的氣氛嗎今天已經將成這樣還有可以順利進行的氣氛嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4140.1 |
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4154.233 |
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我們有這麼急切的一定要在今天處理嗎跳過程序急切的要在今天處理嗎就在昨天的協商會上大家各黨都同意也簽字這個會期要延會到7月16號 |
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4156.997 |
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我們有充分的時間這個會期沒有在五月底就要結束大家充分同意之下可以延會到七月十六號所以我們多了兩個半月的時間一個半月的時間可以來讓更多的法案透過好的審查跟對話能夠加速來通過有這麼急嗎如果這麼急的話為什麼再生醫療二法今天你們要把它甩到一邊 |
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4186.766 |
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4187.647 |
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為什麼韓院長您尊重那天黃國昌總召的建議說因為兩個花東建設的條例因為要等新任的交通部長來再進行這是您認為也合理對不對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4204.872 |
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4207.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
新任行政院院長都還沒有上任 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
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4248.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
可以因為黃國昌總召一個建議說要等新的交通部長來再來討論交通建設好那同樣的好那就是院長您的邏輯那我也在這裡提醒您那新任的行政院長都還沒有上任急切的要通過一個跟行政立法監督關係的國會擴權法案有這麼急嗎這個會期要延會到7月16號了我們多出一個半月的時間可以處置可以好好的來討論條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
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我最後想說 院長我為什麼今天上午提到我看到這麼多警察而且每一個帶著密錄器那個覺得気持很不好那當然您剛剛在協商當中也解釋說是為了保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4267.967 |
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4284.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
委員的安全我覺得非常的奇怪我真的覺得非常的奇怪王金平院長過去堅持即使在318學運他都堅持絕對不能動用警察權如果動用警察權就是對於民主的迫害這是王金平院長說的 |
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我相信您也會尊重因為2月1號您上任的時候您也說同樣的話絕對不會動用警察權不是比拳頭的地方國會要論理那是您上任的時候說的話但我有一點我真的不解我不曉得我有沒有聽錯但是我想我不會聽錯因為距離很近就是剛剛在樓下的房間裡頭小會議室裡頭為什麼我聽到真的很不好意思我聽到副總召打了一個電話 |
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4312.574 |
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4316.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
竟然跟電話裡的 我不知道是誰 竟然說 給我調多一點警察來我不知道我有沒有聽錯 蘇媛我聽到嗎我要問院長 為什麼傅昆齊總召可以 我不知道在跟誰講話 然後說 給我調多一點警察來我覺得我沒有辦法理解跟想像 |
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4335.578 |
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4360.619 |
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我有沒有聽錯 水泳也有聽到所以我信任院長 這件事情我們尊重院長的才識 絕對不能讓警察來介入委員的任何的議事的進行我們都尊重也相信 但是我要再次強調部署這麼多的警力 每一個佩戴密錄器這件事情真的不是讓人感受很好 我也認為這有點過當的部署 |
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4363.001 |
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| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
所以我們再一次認為不要逼迫院長進行非法的議事主持沒有完備逐條協商就是沒有完備這個程序7月16我們要研會到這麼還有一個半多月的時間有這麼急嗎黃國昌總召有這麼急嗎我們有充分的時間黃國昌總召的面部表情管理要訓練一下喔 |
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4393.753 |
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4423.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
謝謝你發言接下來我們請國民黨副控局總召這個院長今天真的辛苦你啊也委屈你了在立法院說長也不長看了二十幾年從來沒有像今天這樣的一個情況民進黨男性的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4424.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4448.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
去攻擊在黨女性的立委還大言不慚還指鹿為馬然後我們70多歲的秘書長還被民進黨的立委來攻擊如果立法院變成民進黨肆意妄為的一個樂園院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4453.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4482.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
很抱歉,你有責任為什麼可以這樣?你看一下,要講警察權這個就是民進黨的太后來了不得了,陳菊亞的立法院陳菊亞的立法院,調了這麼多的警察尤其是調了這麼多的警察我覺得說,他們的太后來的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4484.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4498.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們需要用這種理喻規模那本院自己的院長到現在為止還在吞人為什麼連院長連一個國會議長該擁有的人身安全都要放棄呢剛剛竟然民進黨以流氓的行徑把院長禁錮 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4514.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4519.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
在院長室裡面還不得開門柯建平還當眾威脅你你出去只能宣布協商還要確定還要約定好才能讓你出來我們實在無法想像我們實在無法想像院長可以在立法院被禁錮 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4546.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4554.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
本席剛剛打電話是請他們去通知警察院長被禁錮在國會裡面被禁錮可以這樣子嗎這是報警院長可以被禁錮嗎那所有的立委以後怎麼辦呢誰來保護立委呢外面都是民進黨的立委圍在那裡我要進去不讓我進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4579.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4595.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
要出來不能出來我也是被害人之一阿我覺得院長如果再這麼放軟的話這國會永無寧日阿可以這樣子嗎可以這樣子嗎可以這樣子嗎民進黨可以禁錮國會的議長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4616.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4643.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我覺得啊 院長這個暴力犯還在對此言不慚今天是國會最黑暗的一天 立法院從來沒有院長被當派式的流氓禁錮在國會裡面的房間 不讓他出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4645.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4646.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
還要講好條件才能出來同時在野黨總召書記長也被禁錮在裡面同時打電話要你報警院長姑息不會讓國會成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4673.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4696.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
民進黨第三度執政還用這種方式這是民主的國會可以用這個方式嗎我覺得 院長你真的要堅持你一定要對全國國人我們為什麼不能開會我們為什麼不能開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4701.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4716.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
為什麼你主持議事,他們就要暴力相向拜託院長不是,我要尊重一下民眾黨請問民眾黨有沒有要發言的? |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4735.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4752.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
其實在整個協商的過程當中我一直試圖守一個原則就是不太針對我們現在在程序上討論的事項說太多的話但是我剛也一直在思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4754.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4782.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
當有人指名道姓在對你進行脫份的時候 坐在這邊 要忍受到什麼時候例如說 柯建民說2016年的時候 我人不在立法院嘛 為什麼沒有推國會改革 有啊我所有的版本都寫出來了 但是我們都在推啊 我們都在推啊但是 那個時候 不好意思 可以請你支持他發言嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4786.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4811.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
好啊但是過半的是民進黨召委也是民進黨的不排案啊不排案啊不排案就是不排案只處理完最滋味末節的事情只處理完最滋味末節的事情啊就是IVOD啊調查權的部分人事同意權的部分有處理嗎有處理嗎剛剛介明說 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4817.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4838.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
什麼2016年他們那個時候沒有處理是要想清楚不敢修調查權等等我聽不懂了那請教一下蔡英文總統2016年提國會聽證調查制度的建立他也是沒有想清楚嗎沒有想清楚所以提出了這樣子國會改革的建議這樣國會改革的政見這樣國會改革的承諾嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4841.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4869.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
當初蔡英文總統所提出這個國會改革的政見柯建民不是複製貼上到自己臉書上他又把它提成他當年選舉的時候的政見了欸怎麼奇怪了 拿到權力了 國會過半了真的可以修了發現什麼 發現要強化國會的調查權 國會的監督權自己執政會不方便 就不處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4871.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4894.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
就是這麼回事一個掌握過半席次掌握權力的政黨背棄了選舉的承諾結果現在責任要推給其他的在野黨真的令人大開眼界剛剛吳士耀委員說委員會協商的時候說我是翹課的學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4901.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4925.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
請大家回去看一下那一天在委員會協商的時候具體發生的狀況我舉一個最簡單的例子我們處理到有關於翁小林委員所提出來的針對總統的緊急命令從現行的不記名投票改成記名投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4927.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4943.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
結果號稱所謂做了最足的功課最好的準備的民進黨立委看著那個對照的條文說這到底改在哪裡我為什麼看不出來令我瞠目結舌啊你連對照條文都沒看過就來參與協商然後在那邊垮垮而談 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4954.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4977.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
說這個條文差別在哪裡啊不是寫的一樣嗎我當場是瞠目結舌不敢置信來參與協商的委員連人家提了什麼修正條文都看不出來都看不出來然後坐在那邊協商說自己準備好了第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4978.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5006.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
又把責任推給說那提案的委員為什麼不來說明每一份法律提案在你提出法律條文的時候後面有個欄位叫修正理由叫修正理由任何有基本法律素養的人都知道你看條文要看修正理由啊如果你條文看不出來不懂的話就好好的去看修正理由啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5008.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5022.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
結果呢 在條文哪裡不一樣 看不出來在那邊東問西問 立法意思到底是什麼其實 明眼人 我也邀請大家一起回去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5023.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5051.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那一天整個IVOD的過程看民主進步黨的立委在司法法制委員會協商的時候到底是在故意拖延還是認真在討論條文大家只要看了那個協商的過程我相信每一個人心裡都有一把尺那至於說我協商跳課對不起喔我無法接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5052.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5072.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那天實際上面的狀況大家可以去問吳宗憲召委我忠實的還原因為當他們正用漫無止境毫無意義的發言在拖延的時候當那兩個條文到底哪裡不一樣看不出來的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5073.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5098.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
然後一個簡單的由吳季明投票改成季明投票可以東拉西扯扯一堆的時候我知道他們是來拖延時間的但我在隔壁內政委員會輪到我質詢了所以我往上前告訴吳宗憲召委說我等一下旁邊內政委員會我要質詢我就過去質詢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5100.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5127.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
等到我質詢完了以後 召委宣布協商結束 我也尊重我沒有其他的意見 因為實際參與過那個協商的 我很清楚的知道我很清楚的知道 那個協商是不會有任何的結論的因為 如果當你從無記名投票改成記名投票的條文都可以東扯西扯扯一堆的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5129.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5158.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我們可以形成一個非常清楚的判斷不會有任何結論不好意思啊 院長這個是我非常少數針對您所垂詢的事項講了這麼久的話但我要呼應的一件事情就是說現在院長您所提出來的建議大家要大體討論要逐條討論各政黨推派代表我們都同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5159.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5184.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們都同意那這樣子的話就變成了是什麼就變成了是什麼就變成了是說那到底民主進步黨到底要不要面對國會改革要不要處理立法院職權新司法因為我相信啊我相信他們有任何的理由說要喊什麼毀憲亂政甚至柯建民總召說他要開國際記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5186.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5207.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
要不要開國際記者會是柯建民總召的自由我們有什麼意見我只是要提醒的是說從美國到英國到法國到德國有哪一個國家的國會行政官員在國會裡面說謊是不用承擔法律責任的我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5212.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5224.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
對於國會聽證調查制度有基本涉獵的人都知道答案是什麼以上請莊瑞雄幹事長請發言謝謝院長還有各位協商代表我對黃國昌委員剛剛的講法這個我就不同意了 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5234.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5243.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
在我們整個國會執行行政法裡面大家這樣在討論的時候也未必就像你講的這個叫做拖延 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5245.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5264.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
冗長的發言各個政黨都會有每一個人都有議事程序上看你要做什麼樣的一個主張這個只要按照整個議事規則大家尊重愛講多久我看我的話常常不是講最多的人可是我必須要指出來就是說如何來面對這個整個國會調查權在立法院的一個修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5270.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5293.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我大膽的 我很真實的講我當年 我在第八 第九屆我就跟顧立雄兩個人共同提出版本我們提出版本以後呢連我們黨內都有爭議所以從這一次條文送進來以後我一直在強調的是說這個射程到底有多廣難道這個不應該討論嗎我一直講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5298.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5321.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
是不是國會調查權聽證跟調查是立法院的一個輔助調查的一個武器讓人民來知道真相這是好事但問題是說你那個射程有多遠你射擊的行程就像我剛剛第一次我們在朝野協商講的時候我就講說也就是我們不斷的這樣講國民黨你現在提出來修正版本啊你的版本已經修正了說第一個我要回應黃國昌委員的部分第二個呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5327.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5342.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我剛,這個草野祥大家都會有脾氣啦我連看傅坤祺對院長你這樣一直好像是在聽訊的叫你聽訊的講話的語氣我聽起來我也不舒服啊但他會認為不是啊他認為他只是很嚴肅而已啊那個過程要講也不要胡說八道嘛剛剛在院長我們在小房間裡面傅坤祺總知道他是來去自如啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5352.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5353.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
今天為什麽 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5371.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5382.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
國民黨現在在 為什麼國民黨一直在講說這個引起暴力衝突 然後對整個秘書長好像有不敬媒體甚至誇張到說 郭國文把他給打趴了有嗎 沒有啦源頭在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5391.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5416.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
原頭就是你今天欽讚霸占了主席台阿最好笑的是國民黨你霸占了主席台以後喊著說不要暴力要開會少來這一套啦我要問你的就是說現在是我發言的時間現在是我發言的時間好不好我發言的時間不用幫我上字幕那張請收下來好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5417.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5430.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
來 請收下來 我要說的就是說這麼多年來議事工房大家都會啦草野協商本來就是吵吵鬧鬧啦草野協商從來就不是來這邊拍手的啦 不會啦當立法委員 我聽你們在講 我也覺得你們都亂講啊蛤 什麼我們要依法行政 立法委員依什麼 依法行什麼政立法委員哪有什麼行政可以行政我們就依法來行使我們的職權 我倒聽得下去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5446.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5450.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我要講的就是 程序如果都對了 表決輸了 民進黨認你們剛剛一直提到說 國會改革協商的一個版本好像民進黨都吵吵鬧鬧 是啊 是吵吵鬧鬧但你們要去追根究底 為什麼會吵吵鬧鬧條文本來大家會有不同的意見我們整個 這幾部國民黨提出來的法案的時候你們現在講的就是5月8號的協商 超級的協商嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5478.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5491.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
你如果走下去讓民進黨提出不同意見提出了以後你說保留我沒意見喔有討論了你保留意見沒有共識然後到最後來議場裡面表決輸了我吞喔現在不是喔你們一直在講說為什麼提了那麼多次的解散的一個動議那散會的動議就很簡單啊為什麼會提出散會動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5506.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5509.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
你們就不要用討論啊你們每天都要保留我不是要提三位動議講話要講清楚我們真的是有提了三位動議但是你要講原因因為你們根本就不想討論人數多數人多人到最後是數人頭啊我的結論也是數人頭啊要表決疏離我就疏離嘛但程序你本來就是要去踐行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5533.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5536.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我來請問林士明委員你剛剛一直講說阿你們民進黨不是都講過嗎那個叫大體討論阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5541.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5563.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
你如果一條一條大家來組條如果大家沒意見的這叫有共識嗎大家有意見的民進黨不能有反對意見我不能反對你的國會調查權設成或者說你那個範圍處罰到底是行政部門就好官員就好還是人民我不能有意見就是因為我有意見到時候國民黨你的版本你也去做修訂了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5565.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5565.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
原頭在什麼地方? |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5582.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5593.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
源頭就在今天的大家意識抗爭 主席台你們佔領的全部都是你國民黨跟民眾黨在這邊 那民進黨就跟你在這邊一直表決 然後大家我們輸 是這樣子嗎 你們會服氣嗎民進黨多數的時候這樣你們也不會服氣啊 民進黨多數的時候在立法院你們不是也都一直在爆發衝突嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5604.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5619.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以協商到最後大家都會變成是 大家都是吵來吵去 院長這很正常啦你自己知道我是在發表我對事情不同的看法而已 我不敢跟你說 院長 喔 王國東你在聽訊 韓國瑜你在聽我 他怎樣怎樣很悲傷 我一點都不覺得悲傷這幾年來都是這樣 要悲傷什麼 不要裝了啦 等一下出去大家還不是笑嘻嘻 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5638.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5656.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
中和上面今天兩場的草野協商那我想我嘗試性的再擴大一點點有關討論事項法案的程序部分剛才建議發言的部分我想國民黨民眾黨團他們是支持但是民進黨團對這個沒有任何表態甚至反對就各黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5658.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5686.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
派多一點的委員來發言如一至三位那國民黨跟民眾黨正式表達支持這個案子民進黨沒有表達沒關係還有第二條你等一下會發言不要急第二條逐條討論的部分我們各黨團派請一位委員來發言發言後我們就依送案先後依序進行各黨團版本條文的表決逐條的時候我們就宣讀條文那我的初步建議就是宣讀黨團版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5689.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5712.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
其餘的我們就列入公報那第三點也很重要今天院會的時間是到下午六點如果我們溝通沒有一致的看法的話我們沒有辦法處理時間那我們就必須下星期二早上九點繼續開會所以我特別要在這裡因為現在已經是四點三十三分了要跟大家報告一下接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5715.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5727.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
柯建民總召請發言黃國昌總你剛有舉手請準備黃孟楷需準備黃國昌市長請今天我看黃國昌吼起來可以針對條文內容來討論他剛才是說這個執委嘛我怎麼能找情況都很簡略 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5738.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5754.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
一法他都要依法 依什麼法根本違法來處理嘛那今天我看黃國昌開始有一些回應了 很好聲音也大起來 眼睛也亮起來 還不錯來 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5758.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5768.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
委員長 針對你剛才的結論我覺得你所有的結論 到最後一個結論是可以很好這個氣氛 甘不在調去表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5769.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5788.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
你要列過朝夕協商這個程序一條一條討論然後馬上錄下去表決現在幾點所以你做一個很有智慧的討論說下禮拜二再來無所謂但是我還是堅持一個原則就是說一定要朝夕協商把事情講完然後簽名 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5789.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5801.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
連續我們最近有一個4月30號黃文凱坐在這裡我們那天在追於結議案的抄寫章那是很簡單的一個結議案的抄寫章動長定價以後然後黃文章提一個什麼提一個經營專化一個焚化爐的親子案 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5816.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5839.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那講了半天 大家講了半天 全部還沒講到核心問題 院長突然站起來說好 我們就消息表決那是那一刻的時候 院長沒有發聲到說 而且一定要先講協商結論通常醫事人員都在旁邊講協商結論幾檔發言 所以那天也沒有講幾個人要發言 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5843.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5855.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那我記得第一次吵一槍的時候黃文昌問你說醫生你怎麼馬上做好幾個人發言所以這個程序後來黃文昌一跑到院長室來找我院長也在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5856.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5863.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這怎麼辦?沒有簽草以詳結論,我說沒有關係啊,那我來演這個集,解決這個危機那我一黨一個人發言,三個人發言,那最後是兩個人發言,兩個人發言怎麼樣?簽了協商結論,財政表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5876.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5887.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
但是合同委員請你,請你我現在講和你有關的,我不希望在你講話的時間,讓你沒有聽到我對你的問題的談話請你按那個案子就是這樣,那這個我再講,在這裡再講 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5896.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5909.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所有政府採購或是任何公共忠誠或是總BOT都是一樣一定照合約來處理不行的話就要停但是從來沒有從立法院來表決說這個把它停掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5910.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5933.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那公共工程委員不必啦那財務法也不必啦所以我們主張應該依合約嚴謹來看待,不行就把它停掉否則馬上沒有國賠,是誰要賠?所以,假如這樣的話立法院,立法院可以介入任何一個公共工程好不好那這個反面,到底是要幫誰?那是要幫誰?我想你自己很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5934.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5955.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那我今天要回歐過來,黃文昌委員我絕對會徵證你每一個事情就做你回答我會跟你講那個,那是很小的問題2019民主黨做國會改革請坦白講,那個版本我們黨團討論過因為我以前提出來的我坦白跟你講,2015的時候提出來的快樂的國會,什麼能命的國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5959.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5985.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那時候我在選舉的時候你一直鬧我 你一直寫髒我只能開放國會沒有關係 直接去改嘛 改個直播吧 轉直播就好了啊所以我該處理的我們都想好了但是唯一就是我把我事件撕出來國會調查權的問題我剛剛已經說明很清楚 當然也是我領先提案的我到憲法法庭去啊 我那個講過一句話 憲法在第一屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5986.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5987.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以那時候就想我們要很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6002.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6026.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
國會的調查權是國會的調閱權的往前延伸這是納法官325事實解釋的所以585的時候是不是可以內意調查這是我要先說明的因為很疑惑所以不敢處理很清楚不敢處理黃昌偉也在現場後來都沒有處理這不是隨時隨地的問題大家共同的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6028.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6041.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那我要問國民黨 國民黨你這晚間8年沒有在國會嗎怎麼說民進黨不敢做 你們來做 你們做到什麼 你們做到是一些違憲的東西出來了不能這樣搞法嘛 你一秒是國會罪你說這個官員說謊 黃國昌剛剛講官員說謊不必法嗎是刑責還是罰款 沒有關係這是責任政治的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6056.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6078.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
政黨是責任政治問題關於說謊當然是這個行政團隊的問題嘛那自己就造成你的額顏你被抓到顏重的說謊要不要政府要下來不下來你自己負責可是人民就是下次選舉裡面淘汰全世界沒有這種那至於什麼叫說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6080.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6106.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這什麼叫收航?那有沒有科通標準?所以今天我們要談的就是說國外民主是所以能夠稅薪尤其吳世瀨委員剛才對吳世瀨委員的指責非常不公平我常常請您注意聽不要講話這所有吳世瀨委員會論說這個緊急秘密是要記名表然後不記名表那個關係很重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6107.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6134.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
因為委員會沒有討論阿所以他問得很合理阿那節目人要聰明阿那天大部分時間在談什麼談總統到六月份做國情報告阿是在談這個所以說因為委員會裡面都沒有開嘛所以當然我教授委員會來這個問題很重要看起來好像是齁記名不記名但是這幾年命運是這個應該怎麼樣那為什麼當初設計要不記名 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6138.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6147.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那我現在改來記名這有情境的改變這樣一個記名不記名當然有要進行討論當然會請議員委員收名這是委員會從來沒有討論過嘛所以才有進行68條總共55個藍衛68條轉成3條就下課就結束4條也罷然後就是這樣過水交代我重新討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6169.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6193.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
黃昌榮委員你早上有發言我是覺得你怎麼要修正啊你說這些都在媒體討論媒體討論可以取代國會討論媒體有人投書找那個取代國會嗎不可能的事情是國會議員要做自己的決策這是政黨政治的問題所以黃昌榮委員我知道你是牛美的美國有一個叫做Free Buster |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6195.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6223.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
184當然用農藏的發言首次黨常用這個武器用農藏的發言一直發言一整天不能斷電不能斷電喔你一直想去講比誰的公益強184這個很清楚嘛國會就是要發言但是他設定你說不能斷喔你講你沒有能力有國會沒有國會我也講一整天沒有斷電他就一直想去講這是民主的可貴阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6224.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6248.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
然後有時候都不討論都默說起來直接去表決今天我還是在這個地方非常嚴正的抗議這個事情美國國會也有說叫他上台發言他抽時間在台獨公辦部神經神腿走來走去搞一整天他還在那邊推來推去的這個是民主民主但是台灣沒有人用到free bus的 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6249.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6267.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
但是我曾經在我們在議黨的時候為了專業法我講一整天一個條文講一整天就是這樣但是現在立法院不是啊全部沒收以後再然後再去表決掉這國會不會完蛋啊這個大家理性想一想 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6271.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6290.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們今天不要針對什麼禁錮什麼禁錮 很多事情 包括郭文貴對周恩來 這個我不認同啦 但是他想這個原因周恩來 周恩來 議事長 我一直跟你講 我們兩個是同年人 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6292.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6302.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
你在立法院長時間或很長的時間 過去我們常常不同意見到目前為止還是不同意見但是我還是可以跟你講話我會反對你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6304.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6326.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
你這樣可以告訴韓院長就是這個棄保潔沒有問題你請你一起舉出一個案例 這樣我會不會完蛋嗎哪一個院長敢這樣做 柏山媽媽 沒有一個人嘛所以我只是在這個地方請教你那但是呢 公安隊也不理貌 因為我代表黨團跟你抱歉都沒有關係但大家要思考這個被禍的原因是什麼嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6327.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6346.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以衝突的原因在什麼嘛 為什麼我們大家會在房間裡 我一直跟你拜託 不要啦不要啦再強行講 這樣衝突不是辦法 剛剛去宣布商會 我說好沒有關係 我陪你去宣布商會啊 結果當然我 休息寫章 後來沒有經濟啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6350.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6378.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我相信你嘛 因為大家老同事嘛 你們不至於在這個篇我一句話那以後又笑眼就抬不起來所以大家要有非常的信任感今天當然最大的問題是草原沒有信任感也許我們重新要建立一個新夥伴的關係在時代開始大家要恢復理性談判這個是一個國會 我一直期待一個理性的國會能草原和諧重新建立一個新的國會文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6379.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6400.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
對於三個月以來大家互相對抗爭都是真的一個事例子一個理而已一個憲政理論而已沒有任何事件我今天跟郭文貴總召講我們老朋友但是你罵我我忍受我罵你也忍受因為我們都是為公的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6401.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6428.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
沒有未適的事宜但是不想太多吵架就好了我都會說你媽媽說我們每天早上早上晚上不睡覺算了算了你媽媽就睡去吧你如果崇懷就好媽媽給你痛快也好沒有關係但是我要跟你講的是一個道理而已這是我們之間一個很重要要重新建立一個信仰關係的時代開始所以朝野應該要重新來看待明天五月份馬上就到了韓院長講了一個道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6428.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6455.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
五二零難道我們這個國會在這裡這樣演給外賓這麼多大家冷靜下來時間又很長了你如果要表決沒關係大家來小熊說我沒辦法講表決我們一百趴就輸了絕對輸了四年四年都輸但是大家照舊來謝謝柯總統非常感謝接下來我們請洪夢凱書記長先舉手請 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6461.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6461.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6478.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6500.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
黨團代表大體討論的時候一至三位發言逐條討論的時候一位發言但是國民黨團沒有辦法同意的是今天院會只開到六點因為既然等一下院會要持續進行今天已經被民進黨團用衝突杯葛阻撓議事的方式本來早上十點鐘就可以開始的議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6502.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6511.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
到現在下午4點46分還沒有辦法開而讓院長召開了三次朝野協商我想民進黨團用這樣子拖延的時間我們沒有辦法認同如果說現在國人都認為說只要民進黨他們不願意不想要面對的法案過去承諾的不願意溝通的不願意協調的不願意討論的或是說覺得不滿意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6526.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6541.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
他們就可以用議事杯葛的方式用拖延時間的方式就讓院會沒有辦法開會下去的話這不是新民意我相信這也不是在立法院擔任過世界賴清德前立委想要看到的國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6543.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6571.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以國民黨團沒有辦法同意院長剛講的到6點我們希望今天院會能夠處理挑燈夜戰討論事項 議案就是要處理討論事項來完畢再者 請容許我真的講我們真的聽不懂到底民進黨團還是沒有正面回應立法院到底是比人頭還是比拳頭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6572.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6586.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
立法院是只要你不同意我的作為你就可以肆意攻擊任意妄為嗎如果真的是這樣的話所以今天才會發生男委員打女委員男委員抱女委員年輕的郭國王委員來 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6588.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6589.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們等一下還是再一次強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6608.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6631.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
五二零即將到來即便我們之前有說不出席總統的就職典禮但我們由衷的祝福賴清德總統就職典禮順利圓滿我們也希望中華民國國泰民安這是我不管是當立委之前或是到現在或是有一天我也會卸下立委的身份我都是這樣的衷心思想 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6633.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6651.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
但是520的前夕如果說在今天2024年的5月17號民進黨團要留下國會史上最嚴重的暴力肢體衝突的畫面我們感到非常的遺憾之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6652.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6677.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
在野黨都有站過主席團但是我們都有讓議事進行並且我們從來沒有先動手我們等一下要開會的時候我們也絕對不會先動手誰先動手誰理虧誰先動手誰負最大責任誰先動手我們合理懷疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6678.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6686.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這就是執政的民進黨要做的一絲杯葛請執政的民進黨負起完全的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6692.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6707.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我會先說剛剛院長最後採釋的事項就是剛剛院長有表示說是不是今天我忘了院長剛剛好像是說到五點半還是什麼時候如果我時間有記錯請院長見諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6710.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6710.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6729.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6750.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
三個,也就是國會改革的核心條文到處理完畢為止那這個程序的動議我們已經正式提交給議事處了那也希望能夠院長能夠尊重臺灣民眾黨黨團這一邊的提議那我們就依照議事規則來加以處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6751.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6757.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
現在每一個黨團都已經三次發言,我想我們基本上... |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6766.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6766.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6791.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6791.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6814.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6818.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
依據立法院職權行使法第九條第二讀會的程序應將議案朗讀依次或逐條提附討論我們不可以在委員會沒有討論條文在二三讀會的時候連條文都不宣讀誰知道在通過什麼條文啊所以議案一定要宣讀這是程序正義不能再跳過 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6843.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6849.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
而且議案不只要宣讀也不能選擇性的宣讀剛剛院長您說只宣讀黨團的版本不可以每一個立法委員都有提案權每一個委員的條文都應當依立法院職權行事法第九條該宣讀就宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6865.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6877.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這就是現在這一屆的立法院讓我們覺得很難以接受的地方什麼程序都要跳過什麼程序都要便宜行事連宣讀議案這樣子最基本的ABC都脅迫議事人員或是院長做成這種違法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6890.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6913.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
不可容忍 不可容忍 不可容忍從來沒有看過立法院要表決 強行表決一個沒有逐條討論的委員會沒有逐條討論的協商現在連要強行碾壓表決連議案的宣讀都可以不要了我們哪知道你宣讀過的條文是什麼啊這讓我覺得非常的氣憤 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6919.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6939.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
任何的鄉鎮市民代表會 縣市議會 乃至於國會 地方到中央 絕對不可能進行不宣讀條文就表決就討論所以最後一點 因為剛剛我 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6941.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6960.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
講到我當事人我一定要說黃國昌委員不要再胡說八道5月8號吳宗憲、張偉所主持的黨團協商進行職權新施法有關於翁小林委員對於總統發布緊急命令時要記名或無記名投票這件事情我們是認真嚴肅的在討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6962.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6977.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
因為提案委員必須說明為什麼記名有記名的理由不記名有不記名的理由我還在場非常專業的提出中華民國行限以來上一次緊急命令在李登輝總統的任內針對921震災發布的我還針對緊急命令的過去到現在的歷史的經驗進行分享不要只會帶風向騙小草 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6992.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7009.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我們專業問政昨天在院長主持的朝野協商吳思堯 周瑞雄 柯建民總召我們扛了50多公斤的交通專業評估包括蘇花改 蘇花安包括西部高鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7010.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7031.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
五十多公斤的資料因為我們都專業嚴肅的在討論所以在立法院我回應洪孟楷委員在立法院不是比拳頭當然也不是只比人頭在立法院要比專業比良知如此而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7032.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7057.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
謝謝吳世耀委員但是我想要澄清一點剛剛那個初步建議是說我徵詢各位的意見宣讀黨團版本那我希望吳世耀委員不要過度的把我講的這個宣告的雷過度的偏差跟扭曲好不好絕對不是反民主那我們現在就我再講一下好不好再講一下我們現在準備大家準備要開 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7058.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7059.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
再回到議事廳,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7079.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7079.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
不能這樣快轉跳過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7104.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7120.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
五年前的今天是立法院通過同婚法案最進步的一天五年後的今天是立法院最黑暗的強行碾壓國會擴權的法案線上聆聽的所有的公民朋友一起來反制譴責 |