| IVOD_ID |
159269 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159269 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-22-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-17T12:17:08+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-17T12:26:31+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:23 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb69f18cf697007c70a4d8ee7d728f0553b6aeebfddff728efb9131942535bd7ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:17:08 - 12:26:31 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
(3月17日及20日二天一次會)） |
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謝謝召委 有請主委請主委被質詢 謝謝 |
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黃委員好主委好我想今天大概已經先前都有些委員有問您有關於台積電赴美社廠的問題那麼3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1000億那麼這個新聞當然也引起了國內多人的許多民眾的關注尤其台積電是我們的護國神山又享有最關鍵最核心的一些晶圓的技術 |
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40.606 |
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53.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
所以呢對於就是這一次台積電到美國去設廠不知道主委知不知道說他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
54.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
75.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了它是4奈米的製程接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作可能就是會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
79.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
95.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
台積電的這個最先進的製程一定是在台灣研發到量產量產以後他才會把成熟的這個量產的技術會擴散到我們所投資的這個海外的這個基地好那所以呢按照主委的意思就是說其實現在台積電到美國這個副廠然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
100.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
112.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
接下來計劃可能會設置2奈米或是4奈米的晶圓廠基本上不是屬於我們國家國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
114.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
136.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
美國本來就科技比我們進步我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國科技項目我們有所謂管制國家請問一下我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家核心的關鍵技術請問主委那您認為台積電的技術不算是核心的關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
137.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
162.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
核心關鍵技術是嗎?核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括譬如說兩奈米的技術,現在包含三星電子也說它有兩奈米技術包含美國的Intel也說它有,甚至它是1.8A,還講18A這個技術能不能進到量產 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
163.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
170.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那有很多的製造的know-how存在這種製造的know-how台積電是不會洩漏給別人的所以簡單來說您認為說只有在研發階段在量產之前的這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術然後量產之後就不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
185.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
201.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
包括讓你去設廠然後接下來可能會有這個很多的相關的設備廠商一起去那這些因為他們都屬於量產了而且可能是都標準化設備化了所以這些不是屬於我們國家的關鍵技術大家都可以到那去設廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
202.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
221.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
報告委員我再解釋一下我說譬如說量奈米的技術我們到美國去投資也是要經過我們經濟部投審會它是在我們自己量產技術成熟的已經在台灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事至於說它能不能到其他國家這個又是另外一回事因為我們有所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
223.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
238.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所謂在這個國際上被制裁的一些國家是管制的是更更嚴格還有更傳統製程的這個技術也都成熟的技術也都不能過去的所以這是兩回事那這一部分是經濟部在負責好您剛講的經濟部頭審會所以現在經濟部頭審會已經有接受到台積電有來申請投資的相關的計劃嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
245.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
248.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他們應該在準備當中可能還沒有見到如果說經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候會諮詢國科會的意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
257.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
269.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
國科會應該有代表會有代表會有代表我們知道其實國科會本身依照國安法授權法的規定要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會這個審議會其實在去年年底的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
276.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
302.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有重新修正過最新的這個國家核心關鍵技術清單那現在我只是在PPT上面爐裂的這些技術項目當中有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電可能會到美國去設廠可能會帶去的技術美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家是嗎 來我們回到前面第三條來請念一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
307.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
315.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
國家核心關係技術是指如流入外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力將重大損害國家安全產業競爭力請問美國是不是外國 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
319.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
323.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們剛講的那個是投資設廠我剛講關鍵技術我們是不會外流的關鍵技術的部分我們所管制的一些關鍵技術你怎麼這麼確認就不會外流廠都到了美國了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
341.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
354.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
如果他有外流就違法嘛 違法就需要處罰所以現在台積電可能會帶過去的技術不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
357.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
379.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
是嗎?不法外流要被加重刑罰處罰不法外流的話,如果是那個技術當然不法外流才會處罰我,現在是問您很簡單的問題就是台積電現在要過去的這個設廠會帶過去的這些技術算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
383.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
390.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
當然我這方面是外行像什麼晶片安全技術量子位元製程技術這不是都是你們自己國科會自己寫的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
393.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
400.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查那看看有沒有這是兩回事我要釐清在法規上面來講這個國家核心關鍵技術項目清單這是基於國安法裡面然後授權國科會要設置技術審議委員會要掳列這些清單所以如果違反這個清單的話它是會觸犯國安法的而且罰則很重 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
420.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
448.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
是,但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目我們在這個審議會裡面審查所以你們確認了嗎?你們已經公告了這份清單嘛我們確認這些清單但是這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管的部會來認定它但是從國科會的角度認為要在那裡要設置2奈米、3奈米或4奈米的這個廠這些技術難道不算是台灣的我跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
450.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
461.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
半導體的技術美國比台灣還要先進那既然如此他幹嘛硬是要逼著台積電去設廠那我剛剛提的就是說先進製程的製造台灣比他們強其實在一般的學校裡面做研究教授果然理論很強 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
473.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
485.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
但是Technician很重要啊所以Technician他的know-how很重要啊這個應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術但是這一部分連政府都不清楚的我跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
485.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
503.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
是你說我們政府不清楚還是政府無權去介入他們的機密啊我們無權啊除非他有違法你才有執法的能力去進去啊他沒有違法你沒有辦法其實主委我很贊同您的看法但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
504.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
521.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
對不對他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術所以呢這個之後我是覺得您現在說法有點像是限台積電於不義或是限經濟部其他的主管機關那未來到底要不要去了解他的關鍵技術還是說你們只是列了一個大框架然後之後呢想要處罰任何一個廠商就依照說我就是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面我就可以罰那我不想罰的時候就不罰譬如說台積電 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
531.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
534.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他即便是帶走了這麼重要的觀念技術我們都還是可以認為我們還有營業秘密法就是我們對保護廠商啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
539.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
562.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法這個我不清楚所以這個部分因為我今天時間是有限我希望就是主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好的去study一下博客會在這件事情上面的角色還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題我們謝謝汪小林委員的質詢我想今天的這個內容我想是不是 |