| IVOD_ID |
15922 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15922 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
21 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-16T08:31:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-16T11:23:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:52:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d30a6515091f25b86ce1f9dc46489d2413be8d109af184be409e0483acb4d7a0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:00 - 11:23:00 |
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我們現在開始開會,請議事人員宣讀上次會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1835.99 |
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1856.889 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年5月15日星期三上午9時1分至下午2時32分地點黃樓301會議室出席委員徐巧欣等11人、逆襲委員蘇巧慧等52人、逆襲人員外交部部長吳釗燮及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1858.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1869.794 |
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衛生福利部國際合作組參事兼主任施金水、主席馬州級委員文鈞、報告師湘儀宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定。二、邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會執行現況．並請衛生福利部列席並備質詢。 |
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1879.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1899.177 |
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外交部部長吳釗燮報告委員邱志偉及羅廷維等二人會議詢問委員徐巧欣等27人質詢軍用外交部部長吳釗燮、北美施師長王良宇、拉丁美洲及加勒比海施師長鄭麗成及衛生福利部國際合作組參事監主任施金水等及其答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1900.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1923.445 |
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決定一、登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二、委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或有要求提供之資訊請相關機關於二週內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從其所定三、委員劉虛廷、龔曉琳、林思敏、葉元之及張雅琳等五人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢 |
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1927.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1948.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處?沒有,議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為．並備質詢。宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1956.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1969.535 |
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現在介紹在場委員首先介紹陳永康委員、羅美玲委員以及今天與會的官員首先介紹：僑務委員會呂元榮副委員長、張良敏主任秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1983.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1993.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
綜合規劃處 郭淑珍 郭處長僑民處 賴麗穎 賴處長僑教處 黃正傑 黃處長僑商處 王偉贊 王處長僑生處 王怡汝 王處長通訊社 吳小竹 吳社長外交部 陳立國 常事 |
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2013.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2032.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
亞東太平洋司藍夏里藍司長﹐亞西及非洲司賀仲義賀司長﹐歐洲司黃君耀黃司長﹐北美司王良玉王司長﹐拉美及加勒比海司鄭麗成鄭司長﹐條約法律司連建成連司長﹐國際組織司李冠德副司長﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2045.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2057.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
國際合作及經濟事務司聯育平聯司長國際傳播司徐永梅徐司長研究設計會林士新副主任李斌處李志強李處長秘書處洪振榮洪處長人事處黃麗玲黃處長政風處周志信周處長儲計處李佩華李處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2077.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2104.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
資訊及電務處林啟文林處長公眾外交協調會劉永健執行長非政府組織國際事務會陳剛毅執行長領事事務局何振環何局長台灣日本關係協會范振國秘書長財團法人國際合作發展基金會李志宏副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2106.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2115.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
財團法人、臺灣民主基金會代理執行長廖達祺、廖執行長國家安全局副局長柯承亨、柯副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2121.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2136.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本日會議邀請僑委會、外交部以及國安局報告中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為．並備質詢首先請僑委會呂副委員長上台報告主席、各位委員、各位先進、大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2149.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2174.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
個人很榮幸應邀列席大院就中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為進行專案報告深感榮幸敬請各位委員先進會與指導今天的報告分成三個面向來向各位先進做簡要的說明第一是有關於中國海外統戰工作的態樣與情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2175.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2200.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第二是有關於對海外僑設影響及案例的分析第三是本會的應處作為中國近年來對僑務工作躍趨積極在中國夢大戰略的總體架構之下追求民族復興貫徹一國兩制和平統一的目標中國國家主席習近平在2013年也提出大僑務的理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2201.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2210.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
根據就有八大會僑計劃以及成立華人互助中心僑夢院等等的工程在2021年中國共產黨統一戰線的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2214.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2232.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
條例裡面特別增加了僑務工作的論述另外中國全國政協主席王滬寧今年出席全國統戰部長會議的時候也發表了今年要著力做好港澳台海外及民營經濟的統戰工作等等的論調採取軟硬 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2235.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2256.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
堅持的策略無所不用其極的統戰伎倆來爭取海外僑社支持中國夢的實現並以反毒促動為基調滲透、分化有我的力量爭取在海外僑社的話語權另一方面中國外移的人口大幅增加也造成了僑社結構的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2258.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2275.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
本質改變,因此僑務工作將面臨各項的險峻挑戰,情勢越加艱難。歸納中國近期的海外僑界統戰工作的態樣,包括以下幾個面向,第一是以軟性的文化教育等等, |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2279.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2290.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這裏頭包括向孔子學院、魯班工坊以及體育、武術課程等等的方式來輸出共產主義的文化思想宣傳中國進步開放的形象 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2291.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2306.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第2設立警僑事務服務站來製造海外僑界潛在的威脅大家都曉得在中國在全球53個國家設立有102所的警僑事務服務站進行收集情資並監控、跟蹤、調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2310.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2336.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他們的海外異議人士已經對海外的僑界產生普遍的負面效應第三軟硬兼施滲透分化海外的向心中國為增加在海外僑界的影響力同時要弱化我方在僑社與中華民國臺灣的連結持續藉由以下各種手段來進行拉攏僑社向心例如邀宴、邀訪 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2336.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2354.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
透過親情、鄉情、忠誼、商機、民族主義、低利貸款等各樣的工具來進行這項工作。第四是融入當地的華媒以及反獨畜童組織、詆毀我僑務以及民主發展的成果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2355.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2372.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
一方面籠絡當地的華美促龍組織,二方面也藉由接觸我僑務榮譽職的方式以錯假訊息進行認知作戰,散播包括兩岸終究要統一,統一對台灣比較好等等的這些統戰宣傳。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2374.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2394.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
一方面打壓我方二方面全面的抄襲模仿我政府推動有成的僑務工作中國不斷的抄襲我方的僑務措施包括例如像我方舉辦多年的非華青年消防研習營那從今年開始中國也開始模仿舉辦等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2395.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2420.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第二段要跟大家報告是有關於對海外僑社的影響以及案例的分析那有關的相關案例呢今天舉出大概有三個面向第一是施壓的部分那藉由施壓分化或者是來利誘干預僑團的運作例如最近媒體都有披露在今年的4月世界台灣商會聯合總會在越南河內 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2421.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2437.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
遭開第三十屆的年會的時候,那包含我們國內的政府首長都因為中共的打壓,因此無法順利的出席。那這對我們世界的台商來說是一個非常大的打擊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2438.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2454.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
臺商普遍表示不滿,活動中尤其藉機干預施壓,不允許具有中華民國像國旗、國家象徵的意象的像國旗、像部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2458.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2471.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
中共的干預施壓也繼續不斷他用干預的方式例如我們在中美洲有一個中美洲五國暨巴拉馬舉行了數十年的肯親大會 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2472.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2500.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那一直以來這個懇親大會的內容都是中美洲一共六個國家六個國家呢每一年經由這種懇親的方式然後大家進行一個聯誼那同時也選舉了華富小姐那頒給她獎學金來推動親善的一些公益的活動那中共呢就進行對這個團體進行干預從2023年開始他們就強行要求去通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2502.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2520.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
一個決議是為兩岸和平統一堅持一國原則以後要懸掛什麼國旗唱什麼國歌等等其實這些作為都是中共的干預以及施壓在邦交國的異動方面也越來越見劇烈 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2522.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2549.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那第三個部分是有關於利誘的方式中共常常利用利誘的方式剛剛提到幾個手段呢那企圖來干預僑團本身舉辦活動的儀節那比如說他就對要求座位的安排刻意要矮化我方或者是說要在什麼地方舉辦如果有出現國旗或是國父儀像的地方他要刻意的要求主辦方必須要遮蔽他 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2550.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2576.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因為他不願意見到我們國旗他就要求去干預去對這些社團施壓第二項是有關於透過各項的接觸管道以及統戰的話術來遊說拉攏有我的力量包含說比如說強勢的去拉攏接觸傳統僑社打壓我國第二就是說中國有成立一個統促會包含說合同會 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2577.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2595.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
或是說統促會都積極的接觸有計劃的接觸我們的僑務榮譽指人員以及重要僑領來進行各項統戰的宣傳第三種類型是用商業的交流、商機利用甚至我剛剛提到的像低利貸款等等來對於商業團體進行事業的統戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2599.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2611.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這種種的方式都可以看出來說所謂的中共一直在干預這個社團的運作然後藉由人數的優勢來進入相關的僑社團體然後藉所謂的量變到質變的一個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2620.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2623.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
第4項是運用知通的手段及警僑服務戰來干擾僑社僑務工作的推展 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2640.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2667.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
舉例來說像2022年11月我們在法國巴黎成立一所叫做由書院藝術文化學校所成立的臺灣華語文學系中心他們負責任的FB的粉絲專頁還有他的手機都很明顯校長的手機很明顯的發生異常的現象經由當地立即通報法國的警政單位然後進行了解然後我們僑委會也提供相關的資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2668.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2687.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
知通安的協助能夠讓這個事件很快的能夠化解掉同時也提醒其他在各地的台灣華語文學習中心要注意慎防中共他們的利用這些知通手段、滲透的方式來對我們進行監控以及干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2688.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2707.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第5項是我們注意到中共的統戰觸角有向下伸展的趨勢他積極的在拉攏僑居國的青少年那這裡頭他就提出很多比較軟性的一些文化活動比如說他就是擴大青年的交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2708.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2735.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我叫做五年五萬名交流生等等的這些這些工程計劃然後他們在菲律賓也提出所謂的造血計劃要在菲律賓招募300名的華裔學生到中國去學習華語文再回到菲律賓來來擔任他們的華語文的教學然後在各地舉辦中國的尋根之旅以及我們也看到說他們的在去年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2736.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2737.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2753.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2772.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
中國去訪問10天內容還安排他們唱華語歌曲其實華語歌曲是統戰歌曲等等這些工作都可以看得出來其實所謂的文化活動他是表面他的背後應該包含的相關的這些統戰的一個作為那 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2774.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2802.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
有關於本會應處作為方面我們提出來有四個面向第一是要弘揚自由民主的普世價值那我們我國堅守自由民主法治人權的核心理念已經獲得全世界的肯定以及喬瑟的支持那我們舉個例子像紐約中華公所他們每年慶祝雙十國慶然後中國呢也刻意要去影響他的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2803.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2831.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
在中華工作裡面進行他們這些選舉的干預等等那我們應該要繼續去弘揚自由民主的價值然後透過這些多元的這些活動以及創新的活動來介紹我們自由民主的台灣那同時也要提高僑團對中國威權本質的認識以及警覺性第二項是有關於要建立多元的平台來深化我國 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2832.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2837.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
與僑界之間的互動聯繫那這一方面僑界我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2839.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2861.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
也注意到說中國不斷的滲透我們的僑社因此我們也要在僑界的網路多元協力方面我們會透過海外各地一共有我們有3000個僑團4萬多家的台商有上千所的僑校以及在海外有許許多多留台的畢業僑生我們有這樣子的一個網絡 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2862.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2862.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2879.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2900.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
聯繫溝通來適時的舉辦各項的活動那本會首長也經常性的應僑團的邀請到海外訪問僑社也聽取僑界的心聲另外我們也在僑界的青年扎根工作方面繼續的匯聚相關僑胞的能量厚植僑務網路來壯大我們的僑社也壯大臺灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2903.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2928.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那第三項是要攜手僑界來爭取臺灣的國際參與我們很感謝海外很多非常支持中華民國熱愛臺灣的僑胞他們每一年對於說臺灣在世界衛生組織受到不公平的待遇紛紛的挺身而出然後捲起袖子來支持臺灣要能夠參與WHA的各項活動那尤其對於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2930.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2948.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
提出來的這些號召都受到各國的肯定比如說他們說Health for allAll for health其實這就是非常有意義的一個在國際間對於台灣非常有意義的一個文宣那我們在各地的僑胞也都支持台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2948.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2948.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2969.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2988.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
致謝協助救災等等其實這些都是對於我們的國際參與非常有幫助最後一項我們特別要跟大家報告就是說交會會將機先來應對中國各式新型態統戰的威脅那我們會結合新媒體交會會也建制了包含我們有X包含有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2989.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3008.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
有FB的還有我們的官方的網站LINE的平台以及我們Instagram等等利用各個不同受眾不同TA對象我們建置了不同的這些管道不同的通路能夠適時將台灣正確的動態訊息提供給海外僑社同時也傳達我們國家對僑胞的關懷以及對僑民權益的種種訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3017.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3030.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
當然即時、便捷、快速是我們這項工作的一個我們所定定的策略目標也希望能夠藉由加強跨部門以及僑切的合作打擊錯假訊息那能夠會說各項的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3032.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3047.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
海外統戰的情形也能夠在國內能夠跨部會來進行相關的這些包括比如說我們有事實查核中心那我們僑委會也特別成立了在我們的官網成立了我們的澄清專區能夠提供給僑界有正確的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3048.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3076.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那我想今天的報告我們也特別提到了說井橋服務站的事情那在今年的4月美國的聯邦調查局也在紐約逮捕了兩名涉嫌運作井橋事務服務站的美籍華人可見中共他們不是運用他自己本身的人進來他是透過運用當地的人的方式因此也引起了美國司法部門高度的關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3078.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3094.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這項工作事實上是涉及到侵犯在地國他們主權的一個行為,這個應該各國都會非常的注意。我們本會將持續的祕註中國在海外統戰的這些動態,並且不以零和遊戲競逐的 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3096.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3096.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3146.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3151.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、先生、大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3152.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3180.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
感謝大院貴委員會安排本部就中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為進行專題報告並備質詢。以下請就順便報告的重點說明如下,敬請各位委員指教。中共的統戰工作早已遍及世界各地,我國和許多國家已有戒心,並且建立惡組中共滲透的機制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3181.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3201.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
近年來美國國會以及美澳智庫都曾經發表相關的研究報告揭露中共海外統戰的任務包羅萬象而且無孔不入習近平在他的領導之下統戰組織在中國的總體外交政策扮演的角色越來越重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3202.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3222.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
中共的中央統一戰線工作部吸收海外的華人以及華人團體為其工作利用附屬組織針對外國個人以及國家展開拉攏以及滲透的行動對象包括外國政治人物、政黨、商人、學者、學生以及大眾等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3223.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3235.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
他們的方法主要是以金錢的力量來消除對中共的負面批評甚至負荷中共的立場消弱國際有我的力量使他們成為中共的協力者 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3237.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3265.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
中共海外統戰主要的目的包括破壞以及阻擾我們的對外關係孤立我國將我們從國際社會完全排除當然這樣的作為對我們邦交的維持以及推動其他的對外關係造成了負面的影響以及挑戰那就中國企圖鬆動我們邦交關係的主要統戰手段跟各位委員報告如下第一是透過經濟脅迫或 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3268.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3284.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
竟然利誘我們的友邦來外交轉向相關的案例非常的多不勝美舉那我們在這邊舉出的例子是2017年中方限制中國的旅客到帛琉去旅遊那請大家參閱書面的資料參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3286.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3311.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
第二就是加強鞏固國際的一中格局特別是扭曲聯合國大會第2758號決議誤導國際視聽藉此來挖我們的外交牆角比如說在今年我們總統大選後兩天又拉我們的友邦諾魯來外交轉向此外中國現階段也透過我們友邦的鄰近國家來進行滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3314.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3338.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
勸說我們的友邦跟我國斷交並跟中國建交製造我們邦交國內部的紛擾以及壓力第三是以商為政分化某我例如中國在我們一些友邦裡面呢利用親中的政要、僑團或者是鼓動臨近國家的中級的商人 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3339.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3367.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
擁入這些國家,擔任中方的代理人滲透朝野的政要,鬆動我們的邦交關係基礎。相關的例子,例如說我們也在密切的觀察今年11月我們的友邦帛琉也要舉行總統大選,所以我們必須嚴加防範注意中方是不是要將利用以及使用各種經濟的手段來企圖影響帛琉大選以及它未來的政局。 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3368.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3389.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
第四,也就是認知作戰,藉選造謠。除了我們剛剛所提的土瓦魯今年的例子,外交轉向,那實際上的情況包括了在他們的大選之前,多次透過中國的官媒接觸當地的媒體,發表土國將外交轉向的評論以外, |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3391.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3411.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
嚴判未來中國也會故技重施在我們其他的友邦圖謀操控輿論進行認知作戰常見的手法除了釋放假民調以外也包括透過僑設作為媒介派出官媒記者滲透結合相關媒體來發布錯假訊息或是意圖帶動風向 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3418.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3446.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
第五點是收買我們友邦的媒體來宣傳親中的論述或者是惡意操作、詆毀跟我們友邦情誼的各種報導那這邊除了再次我們看到有土瓦魯這個選舉的例子以外那另外中國人民解放軍系統也曾經接洽《帛琉報》企圖在帛琉成立親中的媒體配合散佈中國官方的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3448.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3469.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
相關的新聞的這個發布藉此來操弄帛琉的輿情面對中國的統戰手段就像我們剛剛所陳述的各項作為那麼外交部針對以上的這種統戰的作為我們的因應的做法跟各位報告如下第一就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3470.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3486.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們會全力的繼續鞏固我們的邦交,那麼我們會定期的要求我們的大使館檢視邦交關係的各項的層面,尤其要嚴防中國滲透友邦的政商界的各種圖謀 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3488.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3501.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
當然,因為外交關係的動態變化瞬息萬變,所以我們除了定期做雙邊關係的評估以外,也是全天候隨時掌握相關的變化作為妥善的因應。 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3502.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3518.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
第二,我們也繼續會強化跟邦交國的合作動能,建立永續的夥伴關係,外交部將持續來推動元首外交,深化跟友邦的雙邊合作,尤其是善用我國優勢領域,尋求雙方在經貿、投資、基礎建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3524.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3542.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
文化、農技、綠能這些領域的合作同時也加強跟友邦合作來訓練他們的人才以及各種人才的交流另外也提供我們友邦學生獎學金來台接受高等的教育來繼續厚植友邦的對於我們友好的這些人脈 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3545.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3561.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
3.繼續強化與理念相近國家在邦交國的合作外交部將要持續強化與美國、日本、澳洲這些理念相近國家在邦交國的各項合作、計畫以及資訊交流分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3562.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3581.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
先期掌握因應中國企圖挖我牆角外交牆角的這種舉措也要確保我們這些合作都是符合我們友邦的需求也對他的國際民生跟永續發展都有長遠正面影響第四也就是讓我們的友邦能夠更加瞭解中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3582.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3583.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
中國經常背信的這樣的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3612.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3640.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
第五也就是加強反制中國認識作戰的這種統戰的伎倆那外交部會協同我們的各個駐外的使館持續如果有任何統戰的這種錯假訊息在第一時間做出澄清說明另外我們會強化與民主國家的合作以及公司部門的協力培養民眾的識讀能力對於惡意操作的訊息進行適當的反擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3643.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3661.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
在結語部分跟國委員報告中國是從來沒有放棄要挖我們的外交牆角他們的圖謀跟行徑近年來變本加厲對我們步步進逼維繫跟邦交的關係一向是外交部的最重要工作我們將會持續全力鞏固維繫邦交關係嚴防中國統戰又拉我們友邦的轉向 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3668.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3679.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
不要讓中國的圖謀輕易得逞再次感謝貴委員會以及各位委員先進對外交部的支持與鼓勵也請各位委員多多指教及協助謝謝接下來請國安局科副局長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3695.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3723.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
主席、各位委員先進、各位女士先生、大家早非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為專題報告僅就中共海外統戰目標工作太陽對我影響及應處建議四個面向向各位委員報告如下第一部分中共海外統戰目標一 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3724.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3750.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
在增進僑界認同中共中共在2020年有新修訂中國共產黨統一戰線工作條例目的是在對海外統戰工作的任務在加強對華僑跟留學生對中國跟中國共產黨的熱愛跟認同以營造友中的友好環境促進統一二次台獨 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3752.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3777.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
2、團結海外的華僑中共全國政協主席王滬寧在今年初全國統戰部長會議下達指示要助勞中華民主共同體意識做好港澳台海外統戰和僑務工作統戰部長石泰峰也指示要增強涉僑部門的統戰意識要壯大之中有中的力量第二部分中共海外統戰工作的太陽 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3779.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3807.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
部件親中的政商網絡中共運用政治獻金、協助經商、招待旅遊等方式又拉各國的官員、公務員、議員跟離退人員甚至對於一些仕途、前景良好、具有潛力、影響力可接觸、涉密資訊的親中力量來進行培植包括在澳洲、英國、德國、歐洲議會都有傳出 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3808.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3825.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
包括官員、議員跟助理因為收集協助中共收集機敏資訊而觸法的案例二、建立代理機構掩護統戰滲透中共在海外建立井橋驛站就是井橋服務站基金會協 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3826.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3846.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
商業協會、孔子學院文化中心、統促會、僑社等代理機構甚至在駐外的館處徵社領事、志工等職務滲透各國社會基層灌輸親中的意識並藉機鎖定及打壓反中的異議人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3848.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3866.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
運用經貿工具影響各國涉入的政策中共利用關稅及貿易壁壘管制關鍵物品出口以及開放入客旅遊等經貿手段誘破各國政府採取對中共有利的政策措施例如中共海關總署2021年 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3868.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3881.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
將立法院從海關總署的電子作業系統中移除導致立國的商品無法報關跟進入大陸的港口用藉此施壓立國誤同意我國設立台灣代表處 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3883.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3902.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
爭取國際組織要職宣誡中共主張中共近幾年來積極向各國際組織推薦入籍人才甚至在各國際組織裡面爭取要職宣傳中共政策理念並收集有力中共參與制定規則的相關資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3904.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3932.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
中共也在包括聯合國良農組織秘書長選舉的時候跟各國用利益交換的方式來支持這個屈東裕接任良農組織的秘書長另外這個屈東裕上任之後利用這個組織內入籍幹部的這個職權協助支持中共一帶一路的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3933.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3943.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
另外英國下議院外交委員會最近也有透露中共曾經行賄聯合國人權事務高級專員要求資金不得用於台灣邦交國 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3945.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3969.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
5加強認知作戰引導各國輿情中共吸取2014年俄羅斯網路部隊對克里米亞認知作戰以及2022年俄烏戰事輿論戰等經驗加強在不同國家內傳佈傳散錯假訊息影響當地民眾的認知甚至製造對立2024年2月加拿大 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3970.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3990.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
的學術機構就揭露中共透由民間公關公司深圳海脈雲翔傳媒有限公司提供韓國、日本、俄國、英、美等30餘國特定網媒宣傳的材料傳散美國科學家是洩漏新冠病毒的元兇藉以攻擊美國跟盟邦 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3992.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4020.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
第三部分對我維持邦以及推展僑務的影響一拉攏海外親中政商人士鬆動我邦交中共運用陸棄國際組織僑社同鄉會以及協助基礎建設提供資通設備建立學術合作等方式拉攏我邦交國官員、國會議員、商會領袖、記者誘破我邦交國外交轉向二 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4021.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4045.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
又拉清台橋設及台橋中共這幾年來不斷地在策動海外傳統橋設策下我國國旗並掛上中共五星旗而且用各種包括邀約訪路提供金援發放伴手禮協助創業等方式又拉台橋另外針對海外突發事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4046.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4057.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
事實派員探視並聲稱可提供領事保護等協助爭取謀求海外台僑跟有我僑團對中共的向心力。動員統促委及僑民 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4059.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4084.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
反制我外交作為中共不斷透由海外統促會在我選舉期間或是我們外國政要訪台的時刻發布聯合聲明支持中方的論述並針對我政要外訪過境美國等行程號召侵入僑民進行成抗滋擾外交活動第4部分應處作為一 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4085.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4105.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
加強掌收邦交國預警情訊,針對中共透由海外統戰工作遊說我邦交國政府官員、國會議員等情勢,加強掌收相關預警的徵後,提供政府部門機先應處。二、揭露中共海外統戰手法事實公佈中共海外統戰太陽 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4107.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4124.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
增進海外華人及各國政府民間對中共宣傳知識獨能力推展與理念相同國家合作與國際友方加強分享查查涉入可疑人士、機構、金流背景遏阻中共對我滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4125.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4151.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
活動最後報告結語中共自二十大以來習近平、王滬寧、國台辦主任宋濤持續在對台工作會議等場合宣誓將壯大愛國統一力量動員海外反獨促統力量尤其王滬寧當選統促會會長之後只是要勇於鬥爭敢於鬥爭擔負反獨促統責任顯現中共對我僑界的統戰工作較以往 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4152.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4170.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
更加積極本局將持續統合指導國安團隊收整可能影響我國家利益跟安全的情報有效支援政府決策以上報告敬請大院委員先進不吝指導並持續對本局工作大力支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4179.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4196.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘,非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右視詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4204.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4209.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
謝謝主席 有請外交部陳麗國長賜請外交部陳長賜次長剛剛聽了各個部會的這個報告其實聽完心情是還蠻沉重的因為中國近幾年來確實是無所不用其極用各種管道用各種方式比如說經過文化、教育、民族情感、金錢、外交 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4234.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4237.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
甚至傳遞假訊息對僑胞進行統戰來鼓勵臺灣我想這對我們的僑務工作來講是未來會更加的艱辛尤其是我從國外來對這部分感受是會非常的深 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4252.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4275.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那比起二三十年前其實台灣對於這個海外橋界的影響力確實是不若以往跟以前真的是很差有段距離可是我在想台灣也不要氣餒因為我們其實就像剛剛各位所報告的我們有自由民主我們有法治人權這些其實都已經受到很多國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4276.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4279.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
有個網站有個駭客網站叫做BridgeForums你知道嗎你知道有這個網站嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4295.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4315.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個我想應該是應該曉得了像今年4月17號的時候有一個ID我們說Tony A或是Tony A的網友他貼出了一篇標題叫做Lingvas for MOFA這樣子的一個貼文那在貼文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4317.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4342.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
很多都是外交部的機密文件比如說有什麼呢有國際發展合作基金針對WHA辦理氣候變遷與健康他要請外交部派員的這個公文那也有外交部跟各邦國在113年2月登號檢表這都是密件那甚至呢駐美代表處的電報也流出來了駐美代表處這個經濟組的公文這些密件 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4343.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4352.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
也都張貼在這個網站那再來兩天之後有一個叫Tony V的他在底下呢就4月19號就張貼了蕭美琴準副總統從美國返國准以免查驗一共價值3萬多台幣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4361.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4383.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
23瓶酒的這個公文而且這公文裡面還附了酒類清單清清楚楚的都附在上面那甚至這個Tony B還更明目張膽的說還有很多的內容請有興趣的人付錢換取更多的這個內幕事隔一個月我想請問外交部我們有做清查了嗎?到底流出的管道是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4384.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4411.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
是哪裏?是從哪些管道流出來的?是誰流出這些資料?有沒有做清查?我們的網站被害了嗎?請問次長。謝謝委員對於這些事情的重視跟詢問。那麼的確在這一次的事件發生之後以及過去所發生任何的疑似治安的事件外交部都會非常仔細認真嚴格的嚴謹的去調查那這一次也不例外 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4411.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4428.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那所以經過我們各項的努力作為並且邀請其他相關機關的協助徹查溯源那麼我們的結果是這一次的三項重要的情況是第一個我們排除是一個治安事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4429.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4429.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那是從哪個地方流出? |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4456.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4483.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
對不起是從哪個管道流出來的這個部分當然現在有檢調機關會去做瞭解跟偵查但是我剛剛說明的是針對委員提問外交部的部分有沒有這樣的疑慮沒有那所以包括第三部分就是說那接下來其他是由什麼樣的管道露出以及那麼接下來如果繼續去了解這個未來如何去防堵那我們會繼續加強我們包括本部如果說定期的系統監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4492.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4504.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我只想請教一下次長,因為次長您現在的回答其實好像沒有回答到我想要的這個問題。比如說,這個Tony A也好,Tony B也好,他們的身份如何?這有查出來了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4505.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4531.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
關於這一點的話因為這個事實上涉及它的來源那麼很多來源是難以追溯的而且它的IP的這種都會經過轉換或者甚至經過第三個國家等於說這些追查的難度當然會非常高那我們現在剛剛所表達跟訴說的重點是在於說是不是治安事件是不是被害是不是有外交部的員工內部流出這些都不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4533.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4556.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那這樣子的話我們的機密的文件可以隨意的裝貼在任何一個網站可是看起來外交部好像還不清楚這個是從哪個管道出來的其實這不是單一事件因為在2023年這個論壇還有另外一個叫做NiceDay009的知道嗎就這個人士他裝貼了台灣情報人員的機密檔案然後這個檔案裡面包含了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4563.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4584.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
臺灣情報人員的基本的個人資料、家庭背景、工作條件、人口特質、日常活動、政治傾向等等所以我在想說這絕對不是單一事件這個是很嚴重的事情欸次長這個部分的話是個一個多月好像我們好像除了說不是我們外交部流出來的之外其他的訊息好像還無法掌握的感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4585.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4609.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
倒也應該是說這樣來描述比較正確而是說有關於這個文件到底是如何外流當然我們會非常重視而且會請尤其是整個案子相關的機關來互相資訊交流然後配合整個情況的調查那當然這也是包括我們的檢舉機關可能會持續會深入去了解這個案件那麼剛剛最後一點補充這個要由其他的相關的負責的機關來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4613.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4624.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
就行政機關而言我們要所處理的部分是有關於本部的所以你們確認你們裡面是沒有內鬼是的那最後一點當然是因為相關的文件所表露出的還有許多的其他相關機關所以等於是說我們現在看到這樣一個因為駭客技術的發達去偷竊文件的技術發達 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4635.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4646.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
可是次長您剛才說這不是被害啊你也覺得這不是被害我的意思是在強調說文件被竊取這樣的技術還有管道其實當然越來越多元科技也越發達那我們當然從外交部的角度來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4650.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4671.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
會持續全力來捍衛保護我們的資安的還有我們的文件的機敏那但是整體來看這是一個非常複雜的工程包括我們其他很多負責資安包括上次國安會包括國安局很多的機關每一個都在慎重努力的處理希望不要有這種外洩的事件那所以包括我們的針鋒處、自列處在這個案子裡面我們都有非常審慎的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4674.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4696.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
OK 好 謝謝次長其實我覺得這也是蠻嚴重的一個問題真的是外交部要審慎以對如此機密的這些文件會被張貼在這些駭客網站我們真的不得不慎這跟國家安全有是一個很大的警訊我是這麼覺得在這部分應該要大家嚴肅看待OK 好 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4704.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4709.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
好 謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢謝謝主席 麻煩國安局副局長請國安局副局長委員長副局長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4735.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4750.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
520將屆,坦白說因為執政的延續,我也不認為各位是所謂的看守內閣,因為各位都在這個位置上,不管外交、僑務或者是國安事務上都相當的時間,所以還有一個延續性。另外一個延續性是國家利益,就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4751.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4771.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
國家利益不會因為政權的更迭、政黨的輪替而有所改變常常是人對國家利益的認知會中斷人跟人的互動、政黨跟政黨會因為認知上的差異會有一些利益上的中斷所以我現在要請教一個520前跟520後的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4773.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4784.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
在520前這兩天國際主流媒體報導像VOA是美國之音還有很多國際媒體報導說中國正在加大 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4786.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4813.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
對臺灣的各方面的壓力他指的有軍事的有灰色地帶的有認知作戰的甚至於到各個國家去反遊說希望各國的政要不要參加臺灣520的就職典禮我都認為這個是等而下之的這個是最low的手段去各國叫人家不要來參加那還有一些軍事的手段就國安局目前有沒有掌握在520前 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4815.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4827.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
中共可能對台灣一個民主的盛會民主的選舉有人勝有人敗但是民主本身是勝利的我們的民選的過程你們有沒有掌握任何情資 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4829.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4848.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
跟委員報告就本局跟整個國安團隊事實上針對520總統就職當然都有相關的一些維安重點的一些專案520之前我們光是看最近這幾天包括中共 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4850.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4874.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
連對我們電視台上媒體評論的那五個算我學弟了我已經被懲罰兩次了我現在不想問我們知道的東西我直接問有沒有異常的軍事調動對岸目前沒有異常的軍事調動但是目前為止沒有異常的軍事調動有沒有異常的船舶調動異常船舶調動 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4879.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4899.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
坦白講對我們周邊的海域中共事實上灰色侵擾事實上比以前更嚴重他的軍艦或者不管是052啦或者相關的軍艦在台灣周邊騷擾日本騷擾南海騷擾那個是不對的但是那個是常態性的我現在講不正常的是有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4900.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4909.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
比方說我們講Roro Boat比方說它的滾裝貨輪有沒有不正常的船舶的調動目前掌握的情況沒有有沒有火箭軍的調動 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4911.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4933.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
跟委員報告我們跟國防部都持續在關注我尊重某些事情保密是基於國家利益我跟委員報告就是沒有特殊特別異常的一些在520前軍事上沒有特殊異常的網路上呢網路上對有沒有升高我們從量跟值 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4935.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4954.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
網路上是認知作戰、假錯假訊息﹖不管是disinformation﹖或者是mailware﹖就是說有的是惡性軟體﹖有的是假錯訊息﹖一個是程式﹖一個是內容﹖有沒有升高的趨勢﹖因為我們放了很多Honey Hub在偵測這些東西﹖應該都有數據﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4957.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4981.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這個部分中共對我們的一些錯假訊息的傳算本來就相當多常態性的惡意我們都知道我說有沒有異常有沒有異常那個網路的清早你沒有掌握就沒有掌握網路清早有增加增加多少百分比我請我們的這個科技部門那個先講Malware就是說這些惡意軟體 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4982.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5010.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
跟委員報告一下有關於網路侵擾的部分這是有比在今年1月就是選舉之後到最近0511日左右都是持續增加的趨勢那原本是從100多萬次到現在有你100多萬次是每日還是每小時每日的每日100萬次對然後到現在的是250幾萬次 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5012.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5035.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
增加那麼多是你現在講的次數是針對我們的基礎建設的網站還是所有針對政府政府機關的民間的還沒有算進去學術網路也沒有算進去嘛是所以不含學術網不含民間網光政府的網站攻擊次數從選前的每日百萬次現在升高到257萬次那樣態有沒有不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5041.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5048.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
要找到我們網路設備的漏洞然後進行後續的滲透你們研判他想幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5049.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5074.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
也許在520當天我還是講等而下次給你置換front page置換網頁跟委員報告其實就兩個面向一個在隱性的面向一定會包含了所謂的平時竊資那如果是顯性的有可能會在當天會有DDoS的情形或者是說網頁置換您剛剛提到的網頁置換的情況這都不能排除以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5074.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5077.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
陸透社有一則報導說在就職典禮後那這個就職典禮後的中國的軍事演習壓力會升高你們目前有沒有這樣子的情緒 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5095.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5124.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
跟委員報告大概下半年中共共軍在演習他們演習的密集本來就6到11月6到11月他是他密集的區間本來就是有軍隊就會有演習有演習就有實彈實兵等等這個常態本期間問的是在異常的部分就是有沒有掌握到520後甚至於到7月有沒有共軍異常的或者是以往沒有的新的軍事動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5125.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5153.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們持續每天都在做一些監看甚至跟我們的一些合作友方都很密切的在做一些聯繫所以你剛才跟我講的方法我們跟五眼聯盟跟友邦跟自由民主同盟我們會有情資的交換我們自己也要這些掌控的能力不管是軍事的掌控或者是情報掌控那我現在問的是結果我不知道國安局能不能讓有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5154.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5174.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
對方的動作揭露也是一種因應之道但我尊重你們的策略選擇我現在問的是520後中共有沒有新增加的或者異常的或者相關的軍事動作不管是軍演或者是侵擾不管是在台海是在離島我們國安局有沒有這方面的情資 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5175.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5199.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
目前還沒有就說掌握到520之後他們有特別的一些打算做的一些軍事的清早就異常的異常的目前是沒有因為異常的話會有些先兆軍事演習不是我們跟委員報告我們對於共軍的動態我們都有好幾個一些預警的徵後軍事演習不是拿個哨子一吹就比賽看誰跑得快不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5200.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5216.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
軍事演習要準備的、要物流的、要相關的logistic assemble,很多動作要做,所以有很多跡象可以去研判,那我也相信貴局或者國防部會進行相關掌握。我現在只是提醒就是,對台灣來講是民主的喜事。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5217.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5245.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
是人民自由的選擇但獨裁國家永遠不懂不懂什麼叫做尊重人民的選擇不懂什麼叫做民主的選擇政權跟政府是會換的他是人民選擇的不會像習近平一做他做到他高興為止所以在520前後不管是政治、經濟、軍事、網路各方面可能都要提高警覺政期會、政交所 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5246.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5248.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
接下來請林楚英委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5282.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5285.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
謝謝主席 主席有請國安局科副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5293.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5313.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
委員長想跟您請問我延續剛剛這個王定宇委員的題目就是有關於台灣現在所面臨的中國的威脅的部分我想昨天的最新訊息就是中國可以說對於台灣的這個所謂把手伸進來想要做這種打壓過去呢他其實懲戒的可能都是政治人物我們先來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5315.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5343.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
但是現在呢他把他的這個所謂的法律戰是不是延伸到了一般的民眾因為過去被點名的都是民進黨級的政治人物但這一次居然連評論的名嘴都登上了他的講法是說因為這些名嘴呢在電視上面蓄意編造有關大陸的虛假負面的訊息那麼挑動兩岸敵意對立傷害兩岸同胞的感情那麼嚴重情節嚴重所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5344.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5369.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
要對他們及他們的家屬來實施懲戒言下之意是現在已經從所謂的政治人物延伸到一般民眾而且他刻意當然我必須講這五位當中確實有民進黨籍的這樣的一個政治人物但是他主要都是在媒體上的發言不過撇開這一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5370.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5394.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
其他的他就真的是電視上的媒體人站在一個台灣有言論自由的地方是保障言論自由的地方但是中國現在卻把他的法律戰延伸到在台灣的言論自由台灣的發表尤其台灣的媒體像這樣的要噤聲的狀況在這之前國安局有接到這樣的訊息嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5395.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5414.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
跟委員報告中共對我們台灣的打壓對民主的這種破壞事實上是隨時而且不斷的在加大像這種的目的事實上最主要就是要製造一種寒產的效應所以就像委員說的他以前對政治人物現在他已經擴大到 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5416.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5433.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
媒體人事實上跟委員報告其實過去這幾年不只是對這種官員甚至他們也對台商台灣的企業界有哪一些在支持執政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5434.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5434.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5457.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5462.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
所以他這樣的做法其實就是要利用一種無形的恐懼因為過去他可能是用這種所謂的制裁台獨分子 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5480.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5499.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
但是他現在已經變成是懲戒也就是說懲毒這樣的一個方式變成是一個新的法律名詞而這樣的新法律名詞是把他的法律戰延伸到我們台灣境內你認同嗎?而這樣的方式是不是變成是說只要是一般民眾你就不能發聲如果你一旦發聲你離開台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5501.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5508.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
他就可能對你採取法律行動來看下一張我們過去都知道銅鑼灣事件銅鑼灣事件的大股東他不是在香港被消失他其實是在到泰國去旅行的時候突然間就不見了而且如果根據我們過去所翻閱的資料當時的討論知道這位大股東他還不是說他就是中國香港而已喔他事實上還有其他國家的國籍當時他是瑞典籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5531.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5551.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
但是他依舊可以在泰國被消失現在國台辦直接發文說我要對這五以上五個人跟他的家屬實施懲戒國台辦這樣的一個做法國安局怎麼看而你們認為現在是不是連一般民眾就只有留在台灣才安全出去其他國家會不會重演像銅鑼灣這樣的狀況讓你變成是台灣真的香港化先從沒有言論自由從先從被噤聲開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5560.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5589.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
各位委員報告我們當然沒辦法認同這樣的作為而且表示譴責我們從中共做這樣的這個恐嚇的動作之後國際媒體的關注度就知道不只我們沒辦法接受連國際民主國家民主陣營民主社會沒有人可以接受這種這種所謂的域外的常備管轄要對民主自由言論進行打壓的各種作為我覺得中共 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5590.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5597.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
雖然只是在對台灣加大恐嚇的力道但是他在國際上引起的負面效應反而會更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5598.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5620.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以現在國際上面的訊息的正確性是非常重要的因為我們在這過去的8年不斷的強調台灣是台灣台灣不是中國的一部分所以當我們遇到事情的時候我們不能變成是說內部解決我們必須要靠外面國際友邦一起來支撐台灣的自由、民主跟獨立但是我們來看下面喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5621.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5626.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
就是現在他如果從官方延伸到民間的時候是有可能切斷國際社會跟我們的連結來看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5629.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5657.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
其實過去我一直在追包括這個副局長你也知道我問過有關於這種地方包圍中央這種所謂兩手策略一手拉一手打打的部分一拉是說他現在呈現是以通促容讓你覺得說兩岸一家親另外如果說現在民嘴不敢發聲民眾不敢發聲民眾不敢強調自己不是中國人不是支持中國共產黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5658.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5660.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那麼這個打就會出現它的效果那麼台灣變香港的話你認為有沒有可能? |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5666.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5690.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
跟委員報告我想中共做這樣的恐嚇作為但是只是會加深國人的反彈那就是說而且國際上對中共的這種批評跟戒心反而會更大我覺得國人我們在台灣有享受很難得的言論自由跟民主的體制 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5691.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5705.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
當然有一個風險就是如果要進去鹿港澳地區這我們上次委員也關心過但是我現在更擔心的不是只有鹿港澳因為他可能延伸到跟他在外交上比較友好的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5707.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5733.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
然後他就講說這個人他是台灣人因為台灣內部都說兩岸一家親所以他是中國人我就可以帶走為什麼我特別找出銅鑼灣的案例因為銅鑼灣的大股東他不是在香港被消失他是在泰國在一個我們認為相對安全的地方所以這個也是一個其實我認為國安局必須要注意的這會不會是另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5734.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5757.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
他們下一個中國對於台灣的威脅或是恫嚇其實所要施展的新的方向或新的樣態我們完全同意委員的看法事實上不久之前澳洲有一個機構才公布這幾年來就是中國人在海外不自願的被帶回中國去的大概有兩百八十幾位這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5759.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5784.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
就表示說中國對於言論自由的打壓對於批評他們的一些這些人事事上的手段採取越來越強烈但是就像我剛剛跟委員報告的國際上對這個的這個反應跟反制措施應該也會更大好所以呃只剩下最後一點時間不好意思主席我想要請這個呃我們的外交部的陳次陳長次對 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5791.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5806.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
面對中國的這樣的打壓雖然五味鳴嘴可以一笑置之但是事實上我覺得這是一個嚴肅的事情那麼就像剛剛這個柯局長所說的那麼國際上對於這件事情他們的反應跟反饋現在外交部收到的訊息是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5807.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5827.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
就如同剛剛委員所表達的關切以及科副局長剛剛的說明全世界的民主國家沒有一個會容忍中國這樣的境外的這種所謂的常備管轄因為這不僅是所謂的強害各國的主權還有人民的自由當然這也是對於未來他自己的形象還有未來他 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5828.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5828.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
當然不會,外交部會全力而為 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5857.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5858.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
有請國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5883.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5906.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
現在是一個比較敏感的時期因為520之前可能會有很多對於我們國安的問題包含對岸的問題都會產生一個疑慮因為是不是挑釁或是對我們整個國家的安全會不會有其他的一些威脅性我想請教這個比較簡單的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5908.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5929.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
關於中共二十屆三中全會這個情言的問題在中共二十屆三中全會確定以今年的七月來召開這麼晚召開的問題原因是什麼那第二個背景的資料裡面顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5930.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5956.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
每一屆三中全會都是中共最重要的一個會議那三中全會通常會做出重大的一個政策那其議程決定中共新一屆的領導班子那工作重點通常針對經濟發展和經濟體制改革的相關政策那這個問題那你來回答一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5957.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5985.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
謝謝委員的確國際上也一直在關注三中全會一再的在延後召開那我們的研判最主要是可能是有比較敏感的這個黨紀的處分的問題就像委員也清楚中共在去年不管是外交部長、國防部長還有火箭軍的高層在連續幾個月之內就是被撤職換人 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5987.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5994.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
但是原因一直沒有說明那像前國防部長李尚武他還是中央委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6001.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6019.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
內政是他們的問題,那外政呢?委員剛剛有提到,山中全會除了可能會處理人事、黨紀的處分最重要的就是委員剛剛所提到經濟上的改革的一些重大的政策對我們我國的經濟底勢有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6020.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6025.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我想山中全會處理的最主要都是大陸內部的一些...我今天是講外部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6030.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6051.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
對針對我們兩岸未來的一個經濟的發展跟我們未來的整個的一個兩岸的一個經濟互通包含文化交流經貿的這個會不會在三中全會裡面也納入針對這個議題你們有沒有掌握這個信息 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6052.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6062.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
坑委員報告中共在內部重要的會議裡面尤其是一些重大的經濟政策出台之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6063.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6091.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
一定會連結到對兩岸的一些交流同戰所以我今天講的是內部不管內部是他們的體制那我們先講這兩岸所以山中前會他也特別提到了一個經濟發展包括經濟的體制但不外乎兩岸的經濟的政策所以這個就是要回答給國人未來我們怎麼面對因為他們切分召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6093.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6109.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
怎麼面對兩岸之間的經濟的發展這個就是你要跟國人要做一個說明跟我們報告我們隨時在注意當然我們要看三中全會召開之後他確定的在會議中討論的決定的一些政策是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6111.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6139.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這是一個很關鍵很關鍵因為現在我們的經濟的下滑而且包含我們現在這個青梅昧日仇中的一個心態所以造成了我們現在整個的經濟的下滑百工百業都非常的難過所以這個部分我必須要跟國安局來報告你們要確實要掌握那如何突破困境這才是我們國人最關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6140.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6141.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
有關於我們大陸的孔子學院與我國的華語文學習中心的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6163.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6179.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那現在是不是中共已經正在示威那我國在2021年開始開辦華語文學習中心策略性搶進孔子學院的空窗學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6181.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6190.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
學生數雖然逐年的成長但去年的人數最多也不過是將近3000人孔子學院則累計187萬人另以數據顯示在孔子學院自民國2020年開始呈現一個負成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6204.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6223.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
但最主要的縮減還是在美國和加拿大連我國最友好的日本也關閉了兩所孔子學院在全球乃有重大的影響力即使我們孔子學院關閉不少乃不能說是示威 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6224.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6236.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那僑委會如認為孔子協議院示威而傾覆本席認為是一件危險的事情你們如何因應跟補救或者是還有新的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6238.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6259.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
謝謝委員的詢問孔子學院基本上它不是單純的一個華語文學習的一個機構它事實上是在進行相關的包含中共它的價值或者說它的革命的這些中心思想輸出因此它裡頭富含有很多的國際宣傳的一個作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6261.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6290.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我們在海外各地目前第一階段在包含美國以及歐洲成立了台灣華語文的學習中心那這個部分是因應學習華語熱潮的需要我們在推動讓主流社會也就是說華語非母語的人士他們提供一個學習華語的機會那這項工作進展非常順利預定在明年度要達到在美國及歐洲達成100所台灣華語文學習中心的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6294.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6307.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
現在的美國跟加拿大關閉了不少的華語語文的學習中心那你說現在要在未來近幾年是要增加幾百所到明年會成立100所 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6309.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6336.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你們估算是因什麼估算?我們是有透過第一,透過當地包含說師資還有說當地學習華語文的需求以及地區性的考慮因此我們這是分階段現在這個階段是在美國跟歐洲率先來推動成立那將來我們也會考慮現在正在評估就在澳洲、加拿大等各地區有需要還有東南亞國家有需要學習華語文的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6339.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6359.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我現在不要繞了一圈我現在問的是為什麼要增加一百所的原因因為你們這裡有限制教學的對象為成年人那為什麼現在有一些其他的學校裡面現在是沒那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6362.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6362.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
謝謝委員您的關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6380.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6399.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那海外各地呢,一直以來僑委會都有輔導,海外各地都推動於我們,就是說我們一般講說0到12,就是說到高中以下的青年,他們都有成立當地的華語學校,比如說以美國為例,他在美國各地一共大概有500所 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6401.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6423.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
三百六十五所的中文學校是零到十二那僑委會也分別為他們安排了師資還有各個你們應該現在除了一個限制對象為成年人之外是不是研究一下把年紀下降作為學習的對象的在零到十二的階段目前都有中文學校了 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6423.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6423.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6456.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6463.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
謝謝主席麻煩請國安局副局長還有外交部次長委員好我想先請國安局剛剛委員有詢問到就目前在520之前在中共整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6483.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6501.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他的解放軍事實上剛剛的回答是沒有太大的動作或有什麼明顯的異樣是不是就跟委員報告當然中共對我們清早常態性的清早有越來不斷的在變化但是就 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6503.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6528.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
軍事的比較異常特別的部署是沒有沒有看得出來那請外交部請教市長太平島誰的中華民國的主權無用質疑無用質疑嗎那我們中華民國的立法委員要去看自己的國土要誰同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6530.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6538.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這是我們立法委員本於職責來關懷我們自己國家的重大議題這個是我們尊重委員的您的這個判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6538.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6566.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
目前在太平島上有100噸級巡防堤壁台的強化工程然後還有4000噸級巡防建港航道加深工程馬頭附屬設施的強化工程還有油庫岸水電設施等等其實這一共花了我們17億的國家的預算這些新建工程已經完工對不對所以如果去 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6567.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6567.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6588.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6593.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以我不曉得今天我們不是菲律賓的國會議員要去看自己的國家的領土跟麻煩製造者有什麼關係到底在怕什麼或者要配合誰或者要聽誰的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6617.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6638.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
今天中非他們的衝突不是現在才發生它隨時都在發生那到底什麼時候可以去這有什麼好質疑的我覺得很奇怪而且還把這個放大去檢視只要監督民進黨政府就叫抱習近平的大腿要宣示中華民國的主權叫麻煩製造者這不是非常可笑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6640.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6647.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
蔡英文總統為什麼要去慰勞官兵?為什麼有時候我們的工程好了以後大家要爭相去撿柴?為什麼太平島中華民國的領土沒有人敢去?我們去了會是麻煩製造者,這不是笑話嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6660.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6677.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
接下來我想請教外交部次長請回我想請教國安局的副局長我們在媒體的報導上面上週大陸國家安全部公布了一個消息它經由群眾陸續舉報 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6680.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6709.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
在大陸的海域發現很多種類型的海洋間諜這是在過去可能比較少有這樣子的一個資訊以前如果要偵測水文或什麼其實大概都是用一些水面艦艇或者偷偷的埋在海底下可是最近常常看到尤其在最近的這個報導裡面大陸的國安部說明這些特殊技術它是裝置隱藏在大海中 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6709.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6734.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
他時刻都可以窺探海洋的資訊、數據威脅國安那大陸現在他們在這些專題裡面他公布了有些漁民在捕獲海上的竊密裝置的時候有了一些典型的案例那他們認為這個海洋間諜有一個共同的目的當然就是要從事於境外間諜情報機關的非法活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6738.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6748.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
他的類型大概分為三種,第一個是暗造型,就是長期可以潛伏在海底,可以隱蔽的採集周圍海洋水文資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6749.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6773.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
還有各種各類船艦艦船活動的數據．可以預置在可能發生作戰的區域．第二個就是密探型．可以隨波漂流浮沉．偵測掌握海域的即時情況．然後第三種是水下燈塔型．這個是為了要侵入中國海域航行的他國潛艦指示方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6774.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6800.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
所以他們這三種的這些海洋間諜現在可以看得到那中共國安部他擔憂的這個海洋間諜目前我國是不是也會遭受到海洋間諜的入侵因為我們的海域其實很近那就我們周邊其實我們也是海島型的國家面臨遼闊的海洋還有我們的海岸線也非常長那像目前中共解放軍機還有艦艇不斷的侵擾台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6803.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6805.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
謝謝委員的指教中共國安部事實上在最近這幾個月不斷地在做一些強化反間諜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6826.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6851.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
各種案例的一種宣傳那事實上剛剛委員提醒的就是在我們周邊海域事實上本局也報告過這幾年來中共的科研船海釣船停留在台灣周邊海域的時間越來越長而且坦白跟各位報告事實上我們的漁民過去這幾年也曾經撈到一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6858.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6876.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
副議長,我現在說的是,因為這個不見得只有中共而已喔,因為中共找到的是他國對他們做的,而我們現在,所以你認為說我們也遭受到中共這樣子的一些海洋間諜的這樣的一個作為,那我們到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6877.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6899.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這些裝備因為通過我們的海域進行相關我們海洋資訊數據的收集我相信也在進行當中,您的說法是這樣嗎?的確的確,因為中共對台灣周邊的這個水文環境的調查越來越密集,所以這種對它不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6900.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6916.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
他表面上是科研但是事實上在戰時也可以當作一個戰場經營管理的數據資料庫那因為既然我們有掌握然後我們也知道我在這裡要請教國安局面臨海洋間諜這樣可能的威脅我們對於臺灣相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6920.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6945.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
請言單位我們應該可以採取什麼樣的相關措施這是第一個第二個我們要怎麼樣完善的防護我們台灣周遭海域水下知情的防護而不至於遭受外國不止一個我們現在有很多的國家包括剛剛說的還有菲律賓或者是其他的國家對我們如果有威脅的話不至於遭受外國無端收集完備國安防護這兩方面我們國安局有什麼樣的建議跟做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6950.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6976.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
根委員報告就是我們隨時在掌握這方面的情資對於中共的科研船、調查船在周邊海域的這種立場另外根委員報告就是我們的海巡跟海軍尤其是海巡對於這個不明的一些水下的潛航器或是這個浮標這些也不斷的跟我們的相關的漁民也都有一些聯繫通報的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6977.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7005.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我們有捕獲過嗎?有撿到過嗎?有,跟委員報告有好幾次就是漁民提供給海巡署的那些都是寫那裡面有什麼資料?不是,它上面標示會有電話,你撿到的話請打這支電話必有重賞,類似這樣的就是我們的漁民曾經撈過交給海巡署的阿然後勒? |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7006.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7011.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
然後海巡當然會這個是不是軍事上的一些打電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7013.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7015.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
國安局是掌握我們整體國家安全不管你在情研各方面的收整其實都是非常重要的那既然現在他們覺得這是一個很大的威脅尤其我們現在不管我們在發展水面艦艇或潛艦等等其實周邊我們海域的這些相關的資訊是非常重要的現在海軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7041.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7045.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
是全世界大家都認為它的推動或者它的發展或者它的優異度其實是對整體作戰還有區域安全是有非常重要的一個影響那如果發生這樣的狀況我們只是請漁民打電話打電話然後我們聽不出來說後面怎麼樣我剛剛的兩個問題我再重複一次我們希望國安局就這個部分可以有一個更完整的一個回答跟它的處置作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7069.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7075.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
再交給我們委員會好不好第一個就是在面對這個海洋間諜可能的威脅以後對我們下轄臺灣相關的情言單位可以採取什麼樣相關的措施來因應這是第一點第二個怎麼樣才能完善的防護臺灣周遭海域水下資情的這個安全不致遭受無端的收集或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7097.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7099.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
委員會提供書面,但是我剛剛提到的他電話不是我們請漁民打電話,是因為他那個錢那個服務標有 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7120.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7121.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
謝謝馬委員的諮詢下面請沈伯陽委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7161.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7163.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
謝謝主席。有請僑委會副委員長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7173.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7192.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
委員早安早那這個今天因為時間比較短那我就直接開始那這個不知道這個副委員長有沒有看到昨天這個新聞說國台辦表示說台灣有幾個名嘴說這一個網顧這個中國發展進步的事實要實施懲戒不知道有沒有看到這個新聞是我看到網路新聞對 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7193.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7209.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這個其實就是一個中國對於台灣一些人的言論自由的打壓這個是對台灣並不是針對我們的海外的同胞但其實他們現在對於海外的這些同胞能夠做的事情感覺是更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7211.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7226.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這邊短短這10年之間大家應該都知道有反間諜法、國安法、基本法等等之類的中國這個法律戰越來越擴張最主要他們有幾條線路當然第一個我們知道的是國安部相關的線路剛剛高航馬委員也有提到一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7227.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7247.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
還有公安部的線路也有解放軍的線路也有傳統統戰的線路也有中宣部的線路所以他們有越來越多線可以對我們的海外同胞來做打壓在這邊想要問一下副委員長有沒有看到新的ABC紀錄片叫做Four Corners |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7249.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7273.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個是大概兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片那這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示為什麼是因為他剛好把中國在尤其在澳洲就是他所做的一些手法算是有一個非常完整的披露那我這邊很簡短的把它run過一遍因為時間的因素那最主要裡面有一個這個前中國的一個秘密特工Eric那他其實本來是逃離中國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7274.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7290.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
逃離中國之後被秘密警察找上門給他兩個選項你要麼坐牢你要麼就臥底所以他後來就為中國公安部服務他是一個非常典型公安部的線路他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常的多按照這個紀錄片他這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7292.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7312.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他當然有潛入這一個跟西藏有關的一些集會然後在右邊他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人那一位已經過世了所以這幾個這一個影科這個我就不講他的一些內容還有王立民還有最後這個華統就這幾個都是被他監控的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7316.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7340.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這個監控的對象對我們來講當然他最主要是針對要嘛就是海外的異議人士那可以看到他在這邊他在網路上拍影片批評習近平那其實就跟我們剛剛台灣的名嘴一樣對不對他去批評中國然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的一個身分所以這個都是在海外現在正在進行式 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7349.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7359.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到就是國安部在這邊他有另外一個是網路的線路是跟公安部比較不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7360.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7387.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
他會有更多的一些可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已他還會去竊取他的社交網絡然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做是手法比較不同那我這邊想要就是這個副委員長可能他已經就是你可能對這個已經有一些一定的掌握但我們還是做了一個簡單的整理就是他們從上級一直到這個特工然後接觸的手法目前有跟監有攻擊那非常重要的是引誘到東南亞 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7388.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7417.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
最近我們在講打詐其實我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家其實是很常被討論那引誘之東南亞這件事情它甚至是各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國在予以追捕所以這邊我想問一下副委員長 不知道就是說這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況這個在紀錄片裡面已經很完整這個你們應該也有掌握那我想問一下我們回到我們台灣的案例就是如果是台灣的名嘴他也想要來做這樣的一個針對他也想要去威脅他 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7417.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7418.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我跟委員報告,謝謝您剛剛所提出來的寶貴的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7443.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7456.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
通過國安法通過基本法23條的時候僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法因此我們立即把相關的資訊包含我們國內各機關所提供對 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7458.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7485.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
一個警示的一個規範我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有的海外的僑界的人士請他們要注意說當我們是提的時候如果到中港澳的時候要注意他有這個新的這樣的做法包含手機的檢查包含等等因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示然後像我們經由我們的通路向海外僑界非常適切的來轉達 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7487.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7509.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個很好就是說我們對於我們僑界的同胞他到比如說他赴中港澳他可能會受到這些威脅這個應該是確認的事實這個讓他們知道這個風險是好事外交部也有在做相類似的行為但現在很明顯的就是他連在民主的國家他連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情他在美國也可以做這樣的事情我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國的這種鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7510.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7539.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個是AI新的報告他們甚至會去施壓這個不是針對台灣他是針對中國但他一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動所以他的民主國家是做得到這件事情那這個很重要的一點是在於說因為不管是一些司法的協定還是因為他們海外公安的擴張他做得到然後加上他現在有實體的法令但我剛剛想問的事情這可能有當然是超出僑委會的範疇就是如果他今天是在台灣要做一模一樣的事情感覺會比較困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7540.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7567.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例在台灣要發生是比較麻煩的第一個我們的當然按照他們的法律我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內但他們有那一個執法的單位所以這邊我覺得是當然我們透過這樣的一個機會其實是要提醒國人就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情但是在台灣照樣可以發生而且發生的方式很簡單他不用通過執法單位他其實通過立法委員就可以做到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7567.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7587.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
也就是說台灣的立法委員現在跟中國勾勾纏的去中國跟他見面的是越來越多那他只要做一件事情比如說今天剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實所以我們立法院要來啟動調查那我們立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7589.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7604.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
問話之後對他來講當然沒有任何的威脅所以對中國來講在台灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢就是要通過藐視國會罪你把一般人全部叫來如果叫來的時候他說謊他叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實或者他今天怎樣不好好回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7605.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7633.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
他就用藐視國會罪把你移送法辦就可以了這就完全可以達到在台灣晉升的效果這是中國現在目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情而在台灣沒有很好做就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣的在台灣發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7634.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7634.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
副委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7663.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7663.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
陳慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7692.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7718.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
委員長早安跟外交部好了外交部次長謝謝次長副委員長我剛剛看到你們報告的第12頁裡面有講到出發代表處、國安人員去查查說我們的聽聞綜藝學校等兩所臺灣的華語文學習中心旁邊有中方的海外進場服務站 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7721.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7735.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我們現在知道這件事情就是離我們這個住處的學校很近那對我的僑務工作有可能推展會有影響那我們的做法是什麼 怎麼反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7736.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7757.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
跟委員報告有關於說在法國我們所成立的叫台灣華語文學習中心是因為說他的臉書還有他的校長號的手機被駭客侵入而且做了一些當然是有關於中共宣傳的被置換的網面等等因此我們才通報給法國的警方由警政單位他們來調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7759.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7787.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那當地他們的確也在這個附近有設置了兩個警察服務站他們所謂的外事警察服務中心那這個部分是當地的僑界人士當然我們也會高度的來注意說他們他們的任務其實是他主要應該講他在監視這些所謂的外逃的人是他們的公安的作為所以剛剛我們陳市長特別提到他們的常備理論他想要藉由這樣的方式然後要 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7787.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7790.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
市長,我們想請教一下,那我們駐法代表處有通報這個法國的國安或者是警方單位說有這樣的情勢嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7806.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7833.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
其實從通案來講對於中國的長臂管轄他所做的這些侵害其他國家主權迫害人民自由的一項都是我們外管委員會注意受到的情資有傳遞給我們的當地的這個不管是國安或者是警方來表達我們對這些相關的管道都是非常暢通的互相聯繫這個都是有的機制有把這樣的相關訊息給他們那會有什麼因應的作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7835.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7859.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我們想強調的一點就是剛剛其實委員關切的這個重點其實中國的統戰現在真的是水淹瀉地的這個無所不在包羅萬象所以它不是傳統的所謂公眾外銷或者只是國際宣傳它還包括剛剛我們國安局副長也特別提到很多特務還有情報收集還有很多這種所謂迫害人群這種行動而且無所不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7860.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7875.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以的確對我們很多的外交工作、僑務工作、很多國安工作都造成挑戰當然我們如果有很多的理念相近夥伴的國家重視自由法治、民主、人權的當然一定也會是跟我們站在同一邊能夠共同來反制中共這樣的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7876.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7889.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
在我們的這個設置的兩個中文學校的附近有沒有所謂的海外的秘密警察正在直接甚至是間接的傷害到有我的人身安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7892.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7913.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
是,跟委員報告,我們是注意到當地有兩個這樣的叫警察服務站,但是他們如果說他們在當地有對於說...報告長我再重新講一次,就是說只是監控嗎?還是有直接可能影響到他的人身安全?目前還沒有接到僑胞有對人身安全方面有提出來這樣子的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7915.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7935.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
因為我們不希望說有一些不僅是我國的僑報那可能是不管是支持藏獨還是疆獨等等有些時候在那個地方附近來去做交流的時候那我們擔心中方的一些秘密警察甚至會採取更激進的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7935.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7959.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以我一直在強調說有沒有把相關的情資我們自己的國安局調查人員查查的這些情資做了有效率的分享我們在那邊沒有執法權嘛但是法國有有沒有把這些訊息來去跟他們分享我一直講這是很重要的不是管道暢通暢通如果不溝通的話那暢通有什麼意義就是這些東西我們都要做好預備跟準備那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7961.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7980.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
北朝鮮他們對於綁架這些東西都已經有潛力了那中國的這些秘密警察有些你看到你可能知道有海外警察服務在有些根本就你還沒有知道的你沒有被察覺到的那直接進行這種綁架的動作都有可能過去也有一些潛力至少朝鮮都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7981.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7983.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
接下來想要請教一下國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8012.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8020.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
謝謝 國安局委員好副局長好副局長我想最近中資的企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8022.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8050.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
悄悄接近美國的核武基地這個相關的訊息你們應該有了解嘛那其實這個已經不是在美國而已在日本也有我記得幾年前有一個農林水產省的相關的官員就跟我們講在北海道等地或者是在其他的日本甚至他們的本島有很多中方在購買大量的土地、房地產特別離他們自衛隊越接近的地方購置的狀況越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8052.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8066.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
其實也不僅僅是這樣而已,包含在解放軍在產監的獨家有說,中資是積極採購駐日美軍基地附近的土地。我想這些訊息,副局長都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8067.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8067.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8093.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8107.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
日本政府徹查已經掌握超過700件類似的土地案件也就是說他們徹查編碼知道說哪個地方哪一個地點哪一些人去構置這些土地影響到國家安全台灣有沒有這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8108.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8123.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
跟委員報告我們對於大陸人士在台灣購買土地我們也有很嚴格的限制不管是他的身份他的使用以及在範圍我們也是有這樣的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8139.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8144.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們有專案在關注的確有一些大陸人士他用第三國籍的身份來不管來台用商務的行為或是各方面的這個我們有在關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8161.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8175.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我希望是我們也不只針對一個國家境外勢力那透過國內或者是第三國或者是在地協力者等等的所以說以各個敏感的機敏的基地或者是政府機關為中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8176.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8198.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
大概是幾公里,平方公里之內,我們就必須要有類似的這些做法,那就是對視,那才能夠去追隱到人的部分,所以我們不,因為如果你一個一個人去找的話,你是找不到的,但是針對土地在離重要的基民的基地或者是堡壘或者是我國的重要的國家安全機關軍事安全機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8199.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8199.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8218.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8240.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
在之前就先把相關的SOP做好才能夠面對這樣未來的挑戰好不好副局長好謝謝更為包括國防部對於要塞堡壘或軍事管制地區一定的範圍他們也有一些劃設一些管制然後他們也會做一些公告對會管制公告好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8248.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8256.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
接下來請鍾嘉斌委員﹖鍾嘉斌﹖鍾嘉斌委員不在﹖請陳婷菲﹖陳婷菲﹖陳婷菲委員不在﹖請徐巧欣委員上臺質詢謝謝主席﹖我想要請外交部的常務次長陳次長請外交部陳常次 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8278.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8292.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
市長您好,很快就要520了,那大家都很期待說有怎麼樣的一些國際的貴賓會一起來觀禮。那我想要請問一下在歐洲國家當中,官員最高層級會來到520的這個就職典禮是怎麼樣的一個層級? |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8298.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8298.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
國會議員．政要朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8313.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8333.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
邦交的國家是可以說明的嗎?還是他不方便在這裡說明?根據我們最新的各個外管報告的資料因為還有很多細節的安排形成的這些安排所以在最後細節都確定之後外交部會事實跟國人說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8333.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8362.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那在美國方面目前共和黨跟民主黨正在舉行2024年的總統而共和黨在做初選那2024年今年也會是他們的這個選舉年看起來很有可能是川普對決拜登那在這個有消息指出川普執政時期的前美國國務卿蓬佩奧5月17號要來到台灣請問外交部有所掌握嗎?這一點我可不可以請貝貝斯市長代為說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8364.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8390.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們這邊對於外賓的來訪是都有掌握的那昨天蓬佩奧他應該也是在公開活動裡面有提到這一段所以蓬佩奧會來他有對外這樣表示對他有對外這樣表示那我們這裡接獲的訊息呢因為他如果表示了但是我們這裡有沒有接到訊息才是我想要關心的重點我不關心他說了什麼我關心我們接到的情節是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8390.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8391.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
蓬佩奧一度被認為是2024年共和黨總統候選人的熱門人選當然他上個月已經宣布他不會被參選提名了 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8411.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8433.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
但是川普可能還是要繼續的參選我們除了共和黨之外在民主黨部分像是羅森伯格或者是一些跟我們比較有交情的政治人物也會來會不會擔心說共和黨跟民主黨都來在這個部分台灣會必須面臨到選邊站的難度 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8436.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8452.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
昨天晚上其實美國在台協會也已經有announce就是美國有一個特使團會來台灣那這個特使團他就是一個跨黨派的一個慶賀團來出席我們的總統就職典禮所以是跨黨派的所以剛剛談到的蓬佩奧如果來到台灣的話他是要來參加520賴清德總統準總統的就職典禮嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8460.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8488.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
在這段時間來到台灣的外賓如果表達說希望能夠參加一些就職的活動的話我們只要能夠accommodate的我們也都很歡迎好的謝謝那另外呢我想要詢問齁那因為最近外交部有對我提告那這個我今天不談個人的個案齁我們談的是通案那因為我們現在的外交部呢跟很多的友邦都有簽這些MOU阿等等相關的這一些文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8489.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8508.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那先前我有向外交部所知外交部提供給我的說法是說我們一向向來都是把這個列為公文書的一般的密件我想要請問以通案來說MOU相關的資訊列為密件這件事情的法源依據是依照哪一條法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8511.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8531.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為我們目前有12個邦交國但是我們在國外有100多個管處那很多的關係的維持當然並不一定有正式官方外交關係所以因為就是沒有官方關係我們有些時候當然都有設代表處的也有沒設代表處有監俠的所以您剛剛委員提示的重點是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8532.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8547.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我們如果跟他有簽任何的MOU說雙方合作的某些項目要怎麼用什麼法律的形式或是文件的形式安排都要看個案對方跟我們交往的程度跟對方的法律情況那是你們去簽MOU的時候的情況我的意思是說你們簽完一些MOU可能會送到立法院來做備查 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8555.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8558.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
請問在這部分的法源依據是依照哪一條?哪一個法律的哪一條?通案上回答就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8572.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8601.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
如果通案而言因為涉及國家利益、外交利益或者說有機密程度那麼就比如說我們以國家機密保護法或者說條約締結法相關的任何法令其實一般的我們不談國家機密保護法因為我們剛剛談的是文書處理文件的一般密等國家機密保護法它有另外一個要需要核定的部分我剛剛問的問題是關於密等文件的一般文書處理的密等 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8601.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8604.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那這個部分的法源依據是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8605.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8629.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
其實應該是說行政院所訂立的文書處理手冊那就是一般公務機密的主要的這種所謂法令規定來源但是國家機密法是另外一套對對是另外一套那因為在文書處理手冊裡面它裡面還有另外提到說有法源依據的部分那我想請問我們現在目前的是依照哪一條法源依據是外交締約法嗎應該說條約締結法條約締結法的第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8635.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8638.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我要問的是第幾條啦,因為那個也沒幾條啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8648.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8667.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
沒有問題,任何人都可以來回答這個問題謝委員,我在這邊再強調一下,其實這個密建的核定,外交部跟其他機關其實沒有什麼特別的不一樣,都是依據相關的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8668.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8686.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
什麼法律?相關的法律,我舉個例子好了。相關的法律是什麼法律?它的法律名稱是?我現在不做個案的。不做個案,通案,因為通案它還是有一個法律嘛。我例如說,人事案件,或者是一些採購的案件。我們剛剛談的是MOU的簽署的部分的案件。對,那其實我也很清楚,因為這個案子進入了 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8687.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8711.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我不談個案我談通案檢察官已經在分案了我談通案嘛因為你們不只簽一個MOU委員其實也是法律專家這個案子是什麼樣的性質就會用什麼樣的法律對所以我要問的是在簽MOU之後送到我們的立法院做備查的時候我們使用的是哪一條的法律依據我們是依據條約決定處理法條約決定處理法的第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8716.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8736.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我這邊因為檢察官也會詢問相關的問題不需要問檢察官啊因為你們就應該要知道這個檢察官沒有問題因為我談的不是我個人的案子檢察官也在詢問這個事情我問的是其他的MOU你們視為密等的文件裡面你們使用的是條約締解法裡面的第幾個法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8740.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8763.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
其實在第9條跟第12條第9條跟第12條是嗎對,我們都有權限去處理的好,第19條跟第12條你們要確定這件事情喔好,第19條、第12條今天是我們在國會裡面大家都有聽到而且呢是公然的就是變成是說它可以說是一個很重要的一個陳述第9條跟第12條我知道了,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8769.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8780.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
好,謝謝。接下來請游浩委員﹚游浩,游浩委員不在﹚請林益君委員﹚林益君,林益君委員不在﹚請洪森翰委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8795.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8822.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
請僑務委員會理副委員長請僑務委員會副委員長副委員長早安副委員長早我想大家先分享一個數據這是中國從1980年開始以來其實中國移民海外的人數大家可以看到其實是急劇的在攀升那如果看 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8824.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8838.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
兩千年的話它的數字是343萬那一直到2020年的話是775萬那相對的其實台灣移民海外的人數這幾年其實是遞減的趨勢我想這個委員長其實應該非常非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8839.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8859.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我想問一個問題是說在兩岸移民海外的人數在有這樣子劇烈的變動之下我們可以想像在海外的這些僑團或僑社它的結構上面其實也會產生一定的影響尤其有一些我們的僑民的認定可能會跟中國那邊其實有時候會有一些重複 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8860.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8877.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那這些影響在我們的僑團僑社的組成跟結構上面的變化我想僑委會我們現在有準備好因應的做法嗎?謝謝委員您的關心那中國在海外的移民的確是大量的增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8878.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8902.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那這個增加呢,一定會產生,我們如果從歷史的趨勢來看,在1975年代就會產生一波的,包括從中南半島移到全世界各地,也造成橋設結構的改變,就是所謂的越減了的橋包。之後在1997年也有一批。當然在更早之前,就是大概1980年代。會長,我現在要問的是說我們有沒有因應的做法,不是?好的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8903.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8922.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以我在講說的確有這樣的變化這個變化在兩個地方可以看出來那我們的因應做法是什麼我們的因應做法容許我把前面這兩句話跟你們報告之後第一就是說會產生量變質變第二是這些來的社團他有認同的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8923.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8946.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
中國移出來的僑民基本上他的認同因為他從小就是在共產制度長大了所以我們對於這個部分他的認同我們應該要順其自然那我們的因應作為就是說我在今天的書面報告裡頭也有向我們大院提出來就是第一我們要去弘揚自由民主的普世價值要做出區隔就是說我們跟中國是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8947.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8973.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
不一樣的地方在於說我們是非常非常的注重而且我們以自由民主的核心價值作為我們的重要的一個追求的目標那在這裡呢就可以看得出來說會去影響僑界會去用自由民主理念來結合僑界第二個做法就是說我們應該要建立多元的平台然後能夠深化僑界與我的互動聯繫這是我們的第二個我這邊想請問因為這段時間有很多國際的人權組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8976.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8989.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
他們其實提出一個非常非常重要而嚴肅的議題叫做中國的跨境鎮壓的議題我不知道副院長有沒有聽過是 我曉得這一個跨境鎮壓的議題這段時間其實很多國際人員組織其實也發布了很多的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8993.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9002.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
根據西班牙人權組織談及中國海外秘密警察的非法境外鎮壓目前中國在全球53個國家中設立了102個警橋事務服務站大部分在歐洲地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9012.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9031.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
一開始他們可能打著說我是讓他們就近換發證件啊辦理出入境服務啊所以甚至他說這是我們海外的110啦海外的警察局副院長你認為這些這個警橋服務站尤其中國在海外特定設警橋服務站目前對我們的僑務工作有沒有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9033.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9054.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
在這個階段看起來他是以中國大陸的移民為主是以中國移民為主的時候呢當然對我們來講一定會產生一種外溢的一個效果是那他當然他說在所謂的天網獵狐等等各種行動代號他說所謂的追追這些反貪腐潛逃國外其實這些是他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9055.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9072.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
委員長你也說了他會有外溢的影響所以看起來是會有影響會有影響那我們對這個影響我們的態度跟做法是什麼是我們在這方面這個因應之下呢當然我們一方面我們也希望在當地國 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9073.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9098.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這是屬於當地國主權的行為希望能夠有相關的資訊一定要跟當地國的有關單位要去分享比如說美國在聯邦調查局就正式去逮捕了這個所謂警察秘密服務站那我們做了什麼嗎?他們的這些做法這樣子他是影響了確實那個當地國的主權可是他也影響到我們的僑民啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9099.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9125.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
他要控制中國的僑民可是剛才也說了中國的僑民也會影響到我們的僑民這是我第一個問題嘛是那這個做法你剛才也說他會有外溢的影響嘛會有外溢的影響那我們的因應是什麼我們的做法是什麼嘛第一個我們當然是要有幾個策略我跟中國跟委員報告我剛剛特別提到說我們要去弘揚自由民主的價值來跟我們僑界結合這不是弘揚自由民主價值可以處理的事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9127.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9156.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我們有沒有僑民有受到這種海外的秘密警察或者是他們這個警僑服務站的影響甚至監控有沒有我從媒體上的報導看出來他並不是公開的活動他會用恐嚇的方式那對啊那我們的僑民被恐嚇那我們做了什麼嘛比如說他就說我不發簽證給你或是他在做你的親人證我知道你不是我都知道這些現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9157.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9173.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
但我問你僑委會做了什麼嗎對我就說跟委員報告我們這個方面呢第一個我們當然是就如同說我不是要請你來這邊做學術發表啊我是要問你這些是你的業務範圍那你們做了什麼因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9175.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9202.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我們有促請海外要提高警覺這是第一個然後要藉由這個還有沒有別的像比如說法國巴黎發生了這個事情那我們網站被駭了或是校長手機被不明的人士所入侵了我們就通報當地的治安機關這在外國是主權行為不是我們第三國可以這樣講這樣我會覺得好像沒有作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9204.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9214.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
不報警不然要怎樣?難道不報警嗎?當然報警,這不是只是最基本的嗎?如果只報警,那我聽不出來給了什麼協助啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9218.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9242.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我剛花了這麼多時間我真的沒有聽到僑民會針對這樣子全球正在關注的現象給了什麼協助啊我們有沒有給這些可能受到恐嚇或受到監控或者是受到騷擾的僑民可以有明確的讓他知道我們可以提供你什麼法律服務我們有沒有跟當地的政府建立一個訊息互通資訊共享的管道大家互相提醒有沒有把這機制建立起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9244.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9261.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我現在問你是我們提供了什麼協助嗎?針對這個現象當大家都在關注這個議題的時候甚至我還沒有講他是警察服務站更多時候是秘密警察甚至是間諜 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9263.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9292.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那我們做了什麼嘛我們明明知道中國的僑民也會影響到我們的僑民影響會外溢的你剛才也說了可是為什麼我聽不到具體應對的做法具體應對做法第一我們就是會事實宣揚自由民主的理念宣揚自由民主的理念對處理這個事情有什麼幫助我真的有點聽不到這當然宣揚自由民主的理念是必要的這也是我們核心價值所在但我不覺得做這件事情就可以處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9294.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9313.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
現在我們在外面可能會遇到威脅跟影響啊我跟委員報告齁其實我們剛剛報告裡有提到我們的第二個策略是說要連結主流社會啦包含說在媒體方面連結哪一個主流社會是當地的主流社會還是台灣的主流社會那你用什麼方法去連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9314.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9336.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
當地的主流社會那你怎麼連結當地主流社會指的是說當地人士而不是說僑民社會那你怎麼連結嘛我現在問你怎麼連結嘛如果連結主流社會有很多的管道很多的僑民他本身就是在主流社會裡面所以我們通過相當的通路藉由這些通路跟他們做連結譬如說民意機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9339.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9356.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我這邊 我大概聽了講我很仔細的聽你們應對的方法跟內容了但坦白說我沒有聽到具體的做法啦我自己是認為你們要不要在喬爾會就正式的起一個專案來去面對接下來中國在境外鎮壓或海外鎮壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9357.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9377.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
相對於不管是他現在有什麼現象也包括我們該提供給我們僑民什麼樣的協助我們要跟當地的政府建立起什麼樣子互助的機制全部都列得清清楚楚讓我們的僑民如果在海外遇到這個狀況的話他至少知道我們的僑委會我們的政府怎麼協助他這應該沒有問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9379.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9400.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好的 我們待會來做記錄不能再只用這樣你剛才只講這個內容坦白說我覺得太空泛了啦好 謝謝時間的關係好不好 這可以嗎是的多久時間可以把這個機制可以把這個機制給建立起來兩個月可不可以我想兩個月三個月好不好三個月是不是我讓給你三個月三個月請提供報告到外交國防委員會是 好 謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9407.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9410.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
接下來請陳培宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席那有請今天是等一下次長 謝謝哪一個單位陳國常務次長 謝謝外交部 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9437.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9462.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
市長你好我時間有限我就直接跟您切入我想說關於這個中國統戰的事情我就不再多說不過以我自己的專業領域來自教育界然後來自語文教育其實我們發現孔子學院這件事情我相信市長你一定非常清楚那孔子學院長年的滲透這件事情到了近年其實很多國家開始有警覺有意識孔子學院他不只擔負語言交流他其實擔負了大量的政治責任對嗎是的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9463.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9488.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那回頭來看我們來看一下在這個日經亞洲的報導提到孔子學院逐漸被西方封鎖可是在東南亞持續發展不知道你們這邊有沒有關注到這個相關訊息一直持續都在關注好那你們觀察到你們有什麼相關給國人的建議或參考嗎在這個孔子學院為什麼他跑到東南亞大量的發展而他對東南亞當地甚至對我們當地台商有沒有造成什麼相關的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9489.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9510.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
跟委員報告的確像過去這段時間您所也瞭解到的在美國也好歐洲也好對於因為孔子學院他的本質他背後的目的有比較深刻的理解不管透過法律手段或其他方法來反制孔子學院來散播或傳播對於中方有利的這些他們的統戰作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9512.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9535.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那所以您剛剛所提到那為什麼會在東南亞看到有這種春風吹又生的情況那的確也是因為第一點比如說因為中國持續在這個地方當然有很多的包括經貿一帶一路很多的努力希望拉攏這些國家能夠站到他那一邊去那麼當然美方也有他的作為所以兩者之間的戰略競爭持續在全世界各地都持續進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9536.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9560.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那您剛剛所提到的這種後續的影響部分的確因為只要有一個地方被遏止了其實他有很多手段他可以改變名稱他可以換湯不換藥再重新用別的名義去來成立去運作所以的確就是有一種就是說打壓不盡他用各種方式加上他的資源不斷因為中國的這個統戰部他的資源一年超過3千億台幣比他們的外交部的資源還要多人手還要更足 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9566.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9581.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
所以回過來看,如果台灣持續在推這個新南向政策你怎麼看我們當地的台下或是當地的學生甚至是其他各式各樣非正式的交流我們怎麼來看這個情況怎麼說我想要再跟次長您分享我們看到還有另外一個日經的報導他提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9583.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9610.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
光是蘋果的一台iPhone其中台廠供應的零組件占iPhone材料總成本36%而且這36%的零件都是所謂最有價值的零件包含高階的核心處理器5G的數據機可是如果相關回頭來看那中國提供的技術跟中國提供的零件相對是低階的所以他最後這邊報導其實就是我要跟次長您說的他說儘管跟中國的經濟脫鉤不是容易的事情可是跟台灣脫鉤更是難上加難 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9612.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9638.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
意思就是不可以跟台灣脫鉤一旦跟台灣脫鉤光是iPhone它就會受到多麼大的影響你剛剛說它在西方的勢力逐漸消退但是它在新的地方開始春風吹又生那我要問我們從過去文化的交流或是教育的交流確實其實台灣是有一些可以做的事情除了我剛剛說在經濟上我們看到所謂這個零件所謂工業所謂其他的產業可是以我自己最熟悉的教育文化產業其實台灣有很 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9640.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9643.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我舉一個例子AIT他們在宜蘭捐贈了一個美國資料專區的圖書區這個圖書呢當然放的不是大家不喜歡看那些公務資料公文資料也不是所謂政府出版品 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9668.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9685.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
他就是一批好看的美國圖畫書或者是童書或者是成人書小說各式各樣的作品都有甚至因爲這個專區設計了很多活動其實很多旅外的華人也告訴我們臺灣有很棒的作家很棒的內容產業但是你們有沒有角色有沒有機會透過你們的設計或是政策推廣到東南亞去我們不直接跟孔子學院對戰因爲你剛說他們有龐大的預算是落在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9694.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9694.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
請回應一下,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9711.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9734.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
是,謝謝委員您剛剛的提問,我們非常贊同,尤其委員剛剛所提到的不同的角度跟層面來讓我們在尤其東南亞這個第一線的外交工作有包含文化跟外交跟軟實際這個層面,其實這些工作外交部以及連同我們其他包括主管的相關的文化部會、僑委會還有任何可以出力的部會都對這個問題非常重視,而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9736.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9748.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
新南向因為我們時間有限我等一下趕快下台但是我要拜託您我們辦公室之後會跟你們持續討論如何把好看的而且有意義的值得往外推廣跟教育部跟文化部還有你們相關部會、跨部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9751.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9751.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
接下來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9775.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9784.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員不在請鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在請洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在請楊瓊瑛委員上臺質詢謝謝美麗的主席本席想邀請僑委會副委員長請副委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9804.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9818.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
副委員長,本席聽到你們的委員長在節目當中接受訪問,他有特別提到他說中共強化海外統戰手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9819.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9844.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
而且他也說中國隨著這20年來呢成為經濟發展中的受益者那海外的僑民也越來越多那麼同時也運用了僑民的組織做海外的統戰而且他也認知到說力道越來越強那在這樣的情況之下我們呢我們做怎麼樣的一個加強跟應對呢請做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9846.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9866.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
是,有關於中共在海外這邊所報導的強化海外的統戰那我們當然在這一方面我們除了說我們的華語文的教學之外因為華語文的教育是我們海外僑社的一個根本從華語文教育才發展出來有僑團有這些僑社是,這方面我們要去加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9870.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9882.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
委員長已經認知到這個事情有壓力了那我們是不是有收到我們的僑團有沒有收到任何的這個訊息有參透的這個資訊呢有沒有你說僑界他們的腎痛就是說他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9888.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9891.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們的僑團有沒有接受到任何訊息,有參透的訊息,那我們要怎麼樣去加強? |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9913.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9941.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
在僑社的滲透、分化方面我們時常都是密注,非常的會觀察、會注意那我們的積極作為包含說那最近有沒有特別的情勢發生?有啊,他就是特別的訊息他就是藉由我剛剛提到的叫做量變到質變來第一他來干涉社團的選舉,企圖在裡面產生因為民主機制,然後他會用選舉的方式產生比較支持他的這一邊的人士,然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9942.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9963.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
變、變、變、直、變。在這樣的情況之下,人家想盡一切辦法,我方怎麼應對?是,那當然我們第一個,我們都會請海外有資訊的時候,請海外的駐外的僑務人員必須要提高警覺。第二個,我們一定要去宣揚自由民主的機制,因為自由民主就是能夠對抗他們的最好的一個利器。 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9963.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9986.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
嘴巴說有理念是對的但是本身還是要請一定要加強因應讓我們的僑胞對台灣是有信心的他們才能夠更有能力這一點非常重要因為他們的孔子學院也全球在擴張人家有好的我們要怎麼去應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9988.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10002.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這是我方必須要加強的嘛 對不對所以接下來本席要請問因為委員長都感覺到這個壓力所以在這個情況之下那也有人說僑委會的存廢或者是裁併 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10003.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10021.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
有的其他國家也把僑委的這個工作量能是放在外交部那我們現在是並行那要請教當然目前為止我們還是已存在就是我們僑委會獨立機關單位目前還是如此那你的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10022.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10035.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
怎麼樣可以加強這個力道呢?照顧我們的僑民呢?是,我們常常在外界在有時候應要去演說的時候我都會跟我們的受眾這樣子說因為僑委會存在到今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10039.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10068.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
是因為歷史的因素而且是因為事實的需要而且我們國家處境這樣的困難的情況之下二軌外交或者是說我們整體對外力量的整合是有必要的同時我們應該要第一個我是很感謝感謝我們海外的僑界他們非常支持自由民主的中華民國非常支持我們台灣因此我們這個力量不要忽視了也因為如此所以我們更要精進我們的方案跟行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10069.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10069.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
請國安局副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10085.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10105.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
五二零將至大家都很期待大家也關心我們各方有什麼樣的安全性所以網路攻擊你們號稱是中共慣用的手法國安局密切在注意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10106.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10107.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那我們怎麼及時應處呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10132.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10160.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們在應處上當然這裡面我們當然就是我們有一個監控的機制而且還有包括國安團隊跟行政部門我們有一些互相通報的因為你告訴我們說必要時也會揭露什麼叫必要時會揭露給民眾安心呢就是因為他有一些有一些比較比如說比較特別的一些手法一些往親的一些手法的時候我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10163.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10186.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
會適時的來做提醒所以這個也要請我們國安局加緊腳步謹慎以待因為民眾聽到說如果有必要時會揭露所以大家相對也越來越緊張人民所需要的是希望安心所以要請國安局來加油所以本席要請教也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10188.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10202.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我們國安局一直都說這個大陸的這個一貫一貫策略那這個一貫策略他從一萬多到這個百萬多到兩百萬多是倍增是倍增那未來不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10203.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10222.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以我方必須要有因應因為民眾我再次強調要的就是一個安全跟安心我們也希望兩岸可以和平共談和平交流和平對流那這樣子對整個我們國家的一個安全度以及整個國家向世界各國來聯繫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10224.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10224.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
國安局的立場? |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10236.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10265.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
謝謝委員的指導我們當然要除了剛剛所報告的就是我們隨時在做一些監控必要的時候我們也做揭露為什麼要做揭露也要我們要提醒民眾提醒我們的社會因為有一些被害親事實上是自己在操作的時候也有一些操作上有一些沒有按照一些嚴謹的治安規定也有這方面也都有所以事實的提醒揭露提醒是有必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10266.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10266.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10279.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10305.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
接下來請邱志偉委員﹚邱志偉﹚邱志偉委員不在﹚請吳思堯﹚吳思堯﹚吳思堯委員不在﹚請鄭天才﹚鄭天才﹚鄭天才委員不在﹚請蔓玉珍﹚蔓玉珍﹚蔓玉珍委員不在今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員﹚蔓玉珍委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10308.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10330.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從期鎖定剛剛本席有請國安局提供的資料大概兩週內提供給本席謝謝那本日會議到此結束散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10363.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10363.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
法定人數不足 |