| IVOD_ID |
159144 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159144 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-13T12:04:22+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-13T12:21:48+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f82efe7fc748c22dffc7dc3b86466824c86f8ffab8834d98321b00f39ec1a9b485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:04:22 - 12:21:48 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.606 |
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0.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
我們請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
12.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
35.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我想今天在座的官員裡面應該擔任過檢察官的有快十位那次長你也是我以前檢查實習的時候的導師所以我在這邊先提一個東西就是說雖然剛剛有提到那個北檢的檢察官去詢問這個審慶金的事情但是因為本案已經起訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
36.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
56.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
本來已經起訴了那現在審理的是台北電商法院那他的主管機關是司法院所以這個案子我們在討論並沒有干涉個案的問題我想次長這個我這樣講有沒有問題因為他已經現在已經不屬於偵查階段了嘛那就這個案子的部分其實是就 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
58.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
74.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
個案的事情我們來去討論出檢查體系裡面通案的一個毛病所以我想說如果有一些人他一直講說這什麼就個案討論這個我想說他們可能對於這個檢查體系以及對於刑訴訟法其實是搞不太清楚所以才會講這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
76.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
104.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好 那我想說 社長我以前是老師嘛那以前我們在實習的時候也有跟我們講說不可以私下跟當事人見面 跟當事人接觸那個社長這個有沒有問題當然我們相關的檢察官論理規範有做一些我們品味上的要求跟職務上要求啦那私底下跟當事人接觸當然是 私下當然是不妥好 謝謝 好那所以呢 其實我還是這麼認為啦就是正常的開庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
106 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
121.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
全程錄音錄影這是有它的必要性那所以說在蔡清強部長的時候因為當時有爆發一個王育文的案子就是高鴻安那個案子的他的一個其中一位被告那王育文他有16分鐘的錄音 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
122.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
148.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沒有錄影所以後來又衍生出就是這個當事人指控說檢察官在那16分鐘裡面對他恐嚇了什麼事情所以當時蔡部長他就要求全國的那個地檢署在開庭的時候一定要記得全程錄音錄影那今天呢北檢的這位檢察官他到他到醫院去看那個住院的沈靜菁其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
150.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
175.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
今天北檢的新聞稿我個人覺得不太能接受因為在座我剛剛有說有快十位都是檢察官出身的官員那好像只有一位其別比我淺其他每一位其別都比我深一定比我更了解檢查體系的運作我想以前我們在辦案子的時候如果我要了解這個被告適不適合來開庭我會函詢醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
176.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
197.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我不會像北檢所說的去視察被告的健康狀況這非常的罕見 什麼叫做視察被告的健康狀況你檢察官去那邊看了被告幾眼 你就可以確定他能不能夠應訊嘛所以正常的做法 我們一定要含詢 而且把相關資料全部留在卷證裡面避免糾紛所以北檢的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
199.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
225.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
記者會的這個論述我真的覺得是騙外行人可以但是你自己在座這麼多警察官出身的我想不太會有人去視察被告的身體狀況這種事情更何況你也不是醫生你不可能用眼睛看你就知道這是第一個我對於北檢的這個新聞稿我持平的來說我個人不認同這個新聞稿的這個說辭那我反而覺得這有一點是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
227.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
244.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有點是在硬凹啦那我今天是這樣我沒有說要去打擊司法或打擊北京我只是希望說我做的每一件事情都能夠讓人民對司法的信任度能夠更高那蔣阿關到場去如果說他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
246.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
267.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
必須到醫院去就訊或者是做臨時偵查庭的詢問我覺得這個也無可厚非但是如果這樣的話真的不適宜說你在現場兩個多小時就錄影只有幾分鐘那你中間跟被告的談話這個是很奇怪的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
268.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
290.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我想說老師你以前也不會這樣教我說在跟被告開庭之前我們先來跟他溝通個兩個小時溝通的被告講的差不多了那我們再來錄音錄影我想老師你也不會這樣教我來詢問被告所以我們以前開庭的時候就是全程的錄音錄影 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
291.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
313.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
其實我從頭到尾我都沒有說沈慶金或他的律師指控一定是真的我只是說因為有這個空白的存在反而讓檢察官被更多的質疑其實沒有必要去躺這個渾水你今天第一個你去醫院看他如果你要臨時偵查庭你要去詢問也沒問題嘛你就從頭錄到尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
316.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
330.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你看你進去你不可能從一進去就開始錄但是如果在現場兩個小時你錄了一個小時半或一個小時四分鐘我覺得大家可以接受就你兩個小時只錄了幾分鐘我想這就是問題而且如果檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
332.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
361.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這麼做也很容易被當事人見縫查證所以我不知道市長您的想法怎麼樣跟委員報告啦我們順法規定是詢問被告時要前程原則上前程錄音錄影嘛他是詢問被告那現在就要定性什麼是詢問嘛那如果說在我們偵查庭裡面當然一進入我們偵查庭我們就開始詢問這是沒有問題所以前程錄音錄影沒有問題他在基本上他現在是在偵查庭外的庭外的是不是所謂有臨時偵查庭的問題那他就沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
362.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
391.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
當下立刻就馬上的錄音錄影所以他他的這個開始進入詢問的時間到底是什麼時間點這時候必須要北檢他必須要對外說明然後個案去判斷詢問我們就應該錄音錄影他那北檢他當然發布發表新聞稿說他前面那一段還沒有進入還沒有進入這個詢問的過程嘛所以這基本上這個問題的根結就是我們98條那個詢問的時間點的定性的問題市長我認同所以我剛剛講的很清楚嘛我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
411.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
臨時偵查廳他不可能從頭開始錄所以如果你在現場兩小時你如果一個小時半一個小時四十分鐘我覺得都可以接受的範圍我剛剛有講這一段因為我總是從寬去認定因為我那個體系出來我不會像外行人一樣吹毛球似的要求檢查官去做一些實務上不可能的事那我的意思只是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
423.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
因為你在現場那麼久但是你只錄了幾分鐘結果你現在被當事人的律師講說你這段時間你還跟我講說柯文哲是壞人你要咬他什麼之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
424.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
448.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那這樣子檢察官百口莫辯如果今天檢察官是有委屈但是他也百口莫辯啊但這個事情發生對司法就是一個傷害所以我個人是這樣說啦我還是一樣我個性還是這樣我怎麼樣我就憑良心說話我們自己在當檢察官的時候我們都很清楚真的沒有所謂的視察倍高狀健康狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
450.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
466.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
或是你簡單去了解一下10分鐘離開 OK但是你今天去兩個多小時還在那邊跟他討論案情而且是沒有在錄音錄影也沒有製作筆錄的情況下這樣我真的覺得不妥啦我不知道次長您覺得這樣做是正確的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
469.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
490.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就這個涉及到法律的解釋個案事實的狀況我們當然也尊重北檢新聞說明那我也尊重委員剛剛就法律上見解的闡述那我基本上這個就是對我們詢問的定性的問題那沒關係喔我知道市長您的意思啦就是你認為說詢問如果依照檢察官的說法那詢問就是最後那幾分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
491.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
509.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
但是如果這樣的話前面兩個多小時的時間雖然有書記官以及律師在場但我覺得這跟檢察官私下跟當事人接觸有什麼不同沒有錄音沒有錄影沒有做筆錄那我私下跟你聊案情然後叫你要認罪這跟私下接觸有什麼不一樣所以我真的認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
511.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
539.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
不管怎麼樣我認為這個行為是不宜我沒有說檢察官百分之百違法因為我不知道當時他們講了什麼但是我覺得完全不宜再多幾次這樣其實對司法傷害更重為什麼我今天會提這個其實之前有一個案子張立善縣長的案子他在2022年選縣長的時候就有雲林的調查官去發生教唆政人偽證後來這個調查官也被 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
540.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
562.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
起訴被送懲戒所以我們今天要做的是我們盡量要求這些司法人員他在錄音錄影的情況下去去做詢問詢問等等的行為其實就是要避免這個情況發生所以既然有那個調查官這麼做那你今天北檢的檢察官帶頭這麼做我真的覺得這是完全不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
563.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
581.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
更何況你今天你在偵辦的是一個高度受矚目的案件如果你今天小案子有一些程序上的瑕疵我想每個人幾十年的檢察官生涯難免會有但是這個這麼高度政治性的案件高度受矚目的案件你還這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
584.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
610.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
沒有啦我還是覺得這個對檢方的傷害是不小啦單就這件事情上面更何況我在這邊跟各位報告的我真的我以前對於被告的身體狀況怎麼樣我們都是含尋醫院醫院回函給我們的我們依據醫院專業的判斷給我們我們來認定他有沒有辦法接受訓問我們真的不會去用檢察官的眼睛去視察被告的身體狀況其實這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
612.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
624.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這是荒謬的一個這個新聞稿覺得是荒謬啦是幫檢察官解套這個我想長官都會這麼做幫忙下屬去解套但是這講出去專業的人聽到或律師聽到其實會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
626.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
641.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
是還蠻可笑的啦所以這部分我想我們就做這樣因為我今天講的是因為總是由個案發現問題才能去解決通案的問題嘛那這件又是已經起訴院方審理中所以沒有干涉個案我想這個以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
643.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
666.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
因為我們如果不把這件事講清楚我跟人家晚上又有人要扣帽子說我們在干涉個案所以我講很清楚這件已經起訴了沒有干涉個案的問題那我也麻煩說部裡面一定要特別告訴檢察官你在出去開臨時偵查庭的時候你盡量能夠全程錄影那如果真的有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
667.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
678.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
而現實上的困難的話那至少你不要說時間差那麼多兩個多小時就錄個五分鐘那個可能很容易就會遇到見風差針的一些狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
682.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
703.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那次長 我想說剛剛的問題是是這樣我也再提一個 其實我們去就訓的時候 你像警察在外面執行都有密錄器全程錄影他們也是避免這個狀況 各說各話的狀況發生那如果我們因為臨時偵查庭去就訓 然後我們又說有一些現實上的困難我90%的時間都不能錄 其實這個講出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
706.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
726.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
民眾可能不會接受更何況現在手機什麼都可以錄影還是要自保啦我現在就提一個很簡單的問題我想請教一下法務部今年的總預算比去年多多少三減後大概多了12億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
728.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
751.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那我想說多12億多因為那一天那個總諮詢的時候因為總超說19億啦那你們說12億那是不是三除後折對對對那不管怎麼樣我想說多了12億多的預算當然他可能用在不同的科目可是因為這段時間很多檢察官跟我講說部裡面有一些告訴他們一些事譬如說什麼用電怎麼樣或是一些這種宣傳我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
754.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
765.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
其實各部會這段時間的錢真的多很多就是我們有抓出來這一次總預算 國家總預算比去年多了1368億 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
768.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
796.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
不是像我們之前說800多因為主計總數給我們資料之後我們整個核算說原來是今年通過的總預算比去年多了1368億那法務部也多了十幾億那像這個情況下說真的你要是還是一直在那邊扯說什麼用電怎麼樣衛生紙怎麼樣用水怎麼樣其實我覺得講久了這個也不好聽而且我在這邊跟各位報告一個點其實我一直很想說一句話因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
797.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
816.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這段時間有一堆地方的民意代表甚至包括中央的立法委員都在造謠說人民什麼補貼會拿不到什麼租屋補貼育兒津貼都會拿不到因為我們刪了預算但我在這邊跟各位報告不會拿不到因為那個預算沒有刪 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
817.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
838.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那完全沒有刪啦 那他之前就是造謠那接下來大家也一定還會領得到 因為該發而不發 公務員有一流客扣罪嘛我想沒有一個公務員敢該發而不發 因為這刑法上面就構成犯罪但是我們現在看到是政治人物在前面拼命的造謠騙國人但是我跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
839.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
862.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
在座各位以及跟國人保證沒有刪除的東西就是會發出來因為公務員沒有不發的權利除非你本身資格身體資格不符合否則沒有不發的權利不然會構成一流客扣罪我想次長這個沒有問題吧對 憲法有這個法律所以有這個法律那我也這邊通告全國公務員不要因為立場而去 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
862.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
887.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
配合的那些政客在那邊胡說八道搞鬼該發的東西就要發否則一定會構成犯罪跟委員需要補充一下其實我們多12億多他其實是多在人事費啦我們相關費用因為我們今年增額了151人相關的人事費還有相關的這個晉級的費用就12億多所以本部私資上他的金額是沒有增加他是增加人事費的部分今天大概是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
888.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
902.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我可以了解啦因為我剛有說不同的科目但是呢過去運作得了但是現在卻跟我們講一些比較低階的沒水沒電沒衛生紙或甚至經常門的東西也拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
903.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
927.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
做文章我不是說法國部啦連經常門的東西都可以拿出來做文章我真的覺得說多了是自己丟臉的因為那個你說那個東西那不會受影響啊那呃再我再跟那個次長報告一件事就是呃接下來我可能會比較注意到AI書類系統的那個部分因為呢過去三年我們花了3169萬2千元的經費其實花非常多錢在AI的書類系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
930.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
954.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那將來我可能會去考察AI的書類系統它的成效如何 運作狀況如何以及上個會期我們希望說能夠有檢察官的對於這個系統的滿意度的調查報告因為他們才是使用者 那請他們給我們這個調查報告那這個部分再麻煩部裡面能夠幫忙我到時候可能會排一些考察 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
955.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
980.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我們現在在桃園台中已經示範了一陣子了那新北跟台北也在去年開始示範那未來考察的話到時可以到比較桃園或台中這種示範比較久的地檢署來看他目前的成效那另外委員有提到他在使用的回饋機制那事實上我們也要求我們希望地檢署使用之後有一些好的不好的我們都有一個會議來請他們表達意見給我們一些建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
980.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1002.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好 次長最後又麻煩你們能夠就這個北檢這個這個沈慶慶這個到醫院去問這可不可以法務部能夠訂出一個檢察官去臨時偵查庭去就訓的時候是不是應該有一些注意事項能請法務部能夠做一個統一的規定那避免說還有這樣的狀況發生因為這個狀況發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1005.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1023.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
也許檢察官說在這一波社會的攻擊上面受到委屈啦因為有可能檢察官都沒講過這個可是就是因為空白的存在或是像王玉文那個案子16分鐘沒有錄影空白的存在那就人家就可以講你很多了就很多無限的想像空間好 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1024.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1042.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那這個要不要另外定一個要點我們再研議那倒是可以考慮看看在我們執行的相關的要點裡面某一條裡面做一個提示性的規範我想說徹底的解決這個問題然後開庭全程錄音錄影也麻煩法務部這邊一定要通告檢察官一定要落實這是法律規定謝謝市長 |