| IVOD_ID |
15905 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15905 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-13T08:30:55+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-13T11:35:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:04:05 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2ddc364aa3d15180a5b1b57e8a8fefb5fe3be8d109af184be49b9a8d153ae6b64a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:55 - 11:35:00 |
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SPEAKER_15 |
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10444.93034375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1950.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1952.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會初期委員11人與主法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1963.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1986.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議意思錄時間中華民國113年5月8日星期三3午9時1分至11時33分地點紅樓山林會議室出席委員盧美琳等11人、內席委員麥玉珍等19人、內席人員國防部副部長博鴻輝、外交部政務次長田中光、 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1986.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2010.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
國家安全局副局長柯承亨、僑委委員會副委員長阮昭雄、國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會副主任委員李文忠、行政院主計總署專門委員邱碧珠、主席王昭吉委員定宇。報告實項一、宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定。二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議、國防部主管預算提出書面報告後,使得動資等82案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2012.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2023.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決定以上82案報告完略,除第9、12、15、16、21、24、37、39、42、55、58、65、66及73案等14案改一致討論事項外,其與均同意動資並提報院會。三處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議,外交部主管預算提出書面報告後,使得動資等12案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2037.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2061.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
決定以上12案報告完略,同意動之並提報院會。處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議,國家安全局預算提出書面報告後,實得動之等8案。決定以上8案報告完略,同意動之提報院會。處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議,僑務委員會主管預算提出書面報告後,實得動之等13案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2062.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2078.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
決定以上十四案報告完略,同意動資並提報院會。六處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議。國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主管預算提出書面報告後,使得動資等十四案。決定以上十四案報告完略,同意動資並提報院會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2081.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2106.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
國防部副部長博鴻輝、外交部政務次長田中光、國家安全局副局長柯承亨、僑務委員會副委員長阮昭雄及國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會副主任委員李文忠報告。委員盧敏林等12人質詢軍有國防部副部長博鴻輝、政治作戰局局長陳玉玲、外交部政務次長田中光、國家安全局副局長柯承亨、國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會副主任委員李文忠及救揚 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2108.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2129.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
養護處處長周星國等即席答覆。決定一登記質詢在場委員均發言完畢報告及詢答結束。二委員口頭質詢及未及答覆或要求提供資資訊,請相關機關於二周內書面答覆本會各委員並複製本會。委員令指定期限者從其鎖定。討論事項一處理委員會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2131.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2137.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
國防部主管預算凍結案等7案決議以上7案處理完均,除第7案繼續凍結外,其餘同意凍資並提報院會。2. |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2137.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2137.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
報告事項2. |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2137.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2137.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
第9、12、15、16、21、24、37、39、42、55、58、65 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2147.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2167.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
六十六及七十三案等十四案經討論後,除第十二、十六、二十一、二十四、三十七、三十九、四十二、五十五、六十六及七十三案等十案繼續凍結外,其與同意動之,並提報院會。二、處理院會交付一百一十三年度中央政府總預算決議、外交部主管預算凍結案等事案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2167.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2169.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2196.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2211.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好,沒有,我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請國家安全局、外交部報告大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響．並備質詢。宣讀完畢謝謝,那我們現在介紹在場委員首先介紹徐巧興委員羅美玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2226.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2234.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
以及今天與會的官員名單有國家安全局徐錫祥徐副局長外交部田中光、田正次亞東太平洋司藍夏禮藍司長亞西及非洲司賀仲毅賀司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2256.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2271.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
歐洲司黃君耀黃司長北美司王良玉王司長拉美及加勒比海司鄭麗成鄭司長條約法律司連建成連司長國際組織司李冠德副司長國和及經濟事務司連玉平連司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2286.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2310.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
國際傳播司徐永梅徐司長研究設計會林士新副主任李斌處李志強李處長秘書處洪振榮洪處長人事處黃麗玲黃處長政風處周志信周處長主計處李佩華李處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2318.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2341.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
資訊及電務處林啟文林處長公眾外交協調會劉永健劉執行長非政府組織國際事務會陳剛毅執行長領事事務局何振環何局長台灣日本關係協會范振國秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2344.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2354.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
財團法人、國際合作發展基金會李朝誠、李秘書長財團法人、臺灣民主基金會廖達祺執行長、代理執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2363.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2376.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
本日會議邀請國安局以及外交部報告道路領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化以及對我國安之影響．並備質詢首先請國安局徐副局長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2389.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2407.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生、大家好非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響專題報告僅就此訪牽動國際關係對我國安影響評估向各位委員報告如此一、習近平訪歐後牽動國際關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2418.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2440.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對於緩和地緣衝突作用有限習近平與法國總統馬克宏雖達成共識將共促各方在巴黎奧運期間停火止戰歐盟執委會主席馮德萊恩亦判中共促俄國結束親歐緩和二核威脅及牽制伊朗 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2442.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2462.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
習近平則強調中共非維基當事方反對利用烏克蘭維基抹黑他國,煽動新冷戰,為表態是否運用中共影響力,要求俄伊朗停止區域衝突,歐中在地緣安全議題交集不多。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2464.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2480.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
第二,中共意圖分化歐盟團結與美歐關係。瓜福一,藉法國強調自主牽制歐盟及美歐合作。馬克宏強調,歐洲維持戰略自主和團結經過事業至關重要。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2483.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2499.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
欲展現法國有能力與中共保持對話爭取歐洲領導地位習近平則判修補與歐關係遊說法國等歐洲國家應堅持戰略自主並結合德國能重視在陸 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2501.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2526.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
經貿利益以及美國大選增加美歐關係變數等契機﹐磨加大拉法穩歐、拉歐治美﹐削弱歐盟去風險、美歐合作抗中力度﹐發布二,鞏固在歐親中力量分化歐盟﹐習近平強調與塞爾維亞、匈牙利領導人深厚友誼﹐突出與俄國帶路﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2528.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2546.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
經貿往來等合作成果．並呼籲匈牙利擔任歐盟下半年輪值主席期間推動歐中關係穩定發展顯示中共視賽匈俄國為對歐工作突破口那試圖打造中東歐與帶入樣板 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2549.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2560.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
發揮歐中合作示範效應．並持續累積在歐親中力量．影響歐盟對中政策一致性。瓜福山煽動反美意識應對陣營對抗 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2565.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2592.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
習近平訪問塞爾維亞刻意重提中共駐南斯拉夫使館遭誤炸事件,宣稱決不讓歷史悲劇重演,並宣布與塞爾維亞共建命運共同體,加以匈牙利常與歐盟、北歐內部歐洲大國之外事立場相助,顯示中共謀凝聚中東歐反美共識,令習近平訪歐後 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2594.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2619.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
二總統普丁 定5月15至16日訪陸,關注習近平二十大後,去年3月20至22日訪俄。普丁5月7日新任期亦首訪中共,圖顯鞏固雙邊戰略協作意圖,抗衡西方圍堵。三、歐中經貿摩擦可能升溫,法歐強調貿易 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2621.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2638.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
需公平競爭取得平衡,將堅定保護自身經濟與安全,然習近平重申入電動車新能源等產業不存在產能過剩問題,反批歐盟扭曲國際自由貿易,雙方各說各話。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2639.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2655.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
加以歐盟密集調查入大陸太陽能板、風力發電機具、醫療器材等不公平貿易,歐中經貿摩擦可能持續加劇。法、歐關注東亞情勢馬克宏向習表達對兩岸北韓等東亞緊張情勢之關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2663.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2677.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
馮德萊恩一強調,在歐洲、東亞等動盪環境下,歐中應促使以規則為基礎的國際秩序有效運作,反映法歐加大遏阻中共迫害東亞穩定現況。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2679.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2700.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
二、對我國安影響評估一、歐盟個別國家將平衡發展對中關係。法歐堅持改善對中貿易失衡問題,其持反不影響歐盟去風險化政策。然,歐盟個別成員國可能依照自身需求在去風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2703.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2729.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
維護本國經貿利益之間取得平衡．調整與中共經貿關係．或將牽動臺歐經貿往來。第二,密駐中共與特定國家操作涉台議題．臺歐關係雖不至因習近平此訪產生變化．但中共促塞爾維亞、匈牙利等親中國家復賀中共一中． |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2730.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2732.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
中共將加大干擾歐洲各國友台活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2755.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2768.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
地區將舉行系列選舉,包括6月上旬歐洲議會選舉,以及英國、比利時、立陶宛等國議會亦將改選。中共將刺激打壓反中陣營選情,並針對可能當選之官員、議員加強摸底。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2774.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2803.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
推進對歐洲議會、歐盟成員國議會工作干擾臺歐議會外交、削弱歐洲挺臺氛圍第四,美歐中印太角力影響我周邊穩定馬克宏在席訪法前先會晤日向岸田同意啟動日法兩軍互惠准入協定談判德國防部5月7日亦宣布派遣兩艘軍艦赴印太地區捍衛航行自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2804.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2829.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
沒與盟友加強印太維穩,抗衡中共擴張威脅中共則持續在周邊海域強化聯合演訓等常態化軍事活動可能在國際挺台作為後,加大基建老台,破壞區域穩定習近平此訪,釋出改善對歐關係意向,加強凝聚中東歐親中力量 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2830.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2852.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
但歐中地緣安全經貿摩擦分歧能存未來歐盟歐洲國家涉台作為能將受美國大選結果、臺歐合作等因素牽動中共將續分化歐盟內部及美歐關係聯動牽制取等對台政策立場本局將持續強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2854.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2876.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
收研工作部署．掌握情勢發展及安全預警．及時提供決策參考．以上報告敬請大院委員先進．不吝指教．並持續對本局工作．給予大力支持謝謝接下來請外交部田政務次長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2884.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2897.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安。非常感謝貴委員會的邀請,我代表外交部就今天的主題,《大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響》提出報告。詳細內容請各位參閱書面報告,口頭報告如下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2907.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2935.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
習近平在今年5月6日至10日先後訪問法國、塞爾維亞以及匈牙利三個歐洲國家重要目的包括慶祝中法建交60週年但同時也凸顯北大西洋公約組織於科索沃戰爭期間轟炸中國駐南斯拉夫大使館25週年以及宣傳中匈建交75週年 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2937.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2957.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這個是習近平自2019年以來再度訪問歐洲習近平首站到了法國與馬克宏總統進行雙邊會談歐盟執委會的主席馮德萊恩也應邀參加習近平等進行三方的會談 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2958.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2961.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
習近平訪問塞爾維亞時,會務總統伍契奇,雙方簽訂了29項合作協定,並發布聯合聲明,將雙邊關係至全面戰略夥伴關係提升為命運共同體。 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2976.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2998.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
習近平最後一站到訪匈牙利,其間分別會晤匈牙利的總統蘇尤克以及總理歐班,會後發布聯合聲明,宣布將中匈的全面戰略夥伴關係提升為全天候全面戰略夥伴關係。 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3000.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3025.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
歐盟自2019年以來將中國定位為合作的夥伴、經濟競爭者以及體制的對手但近期歐盟執委會顯然在經濟安全方面對中國採取更強硬的立場並對中國非市場的作為施加反制的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3026.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3048.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
包括對中國製造之太陽能板﹐電動車﹐鋼鐵等啟動各項貿易調查。馮德蘭主席在三方會談後﹐再次對中國非市場的行為表達高度關切﹐希望中國政府正視並解決其產能過剩及不公平市場競爭的手段問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3051.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3070.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
他另外表示,歐盟將與G7及重要的新興經濟體國家合作,面對中國扭曲市場的問題,持續強化供應鏈的韌性,並需擴充及強化其經濟安全工具,以確保歐洲市場的利益。 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3072.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3095.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
馬克龍總統與習近平在雙方會談後就中東的局勢、海洋的合作、人工智慧以及農業交流等四項議題發表聯合聲明並且宣布就生物多樣性、環保、航空以及文化等議題簽署了18項的合約或合作備忘錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3097.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3120.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
馬克龍總統在聯合記者會上﹐延續法國至上年以來在法澳、法日二加二的會談﹐以及通過2024到2030七年建軍法案﹐希望強化臺海和平穩定的立場﹐重申對海峽兩岸等區域緊張情勢的擔憂﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3123.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3146.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
習近平訪問匈牙利,事逢中匈建交75周年,在會晤總統蘇尤克表示雙邊關係正處於歷史的最佳時刻,在會晤總理歐班時共同宣布提升中歐關係至全天候全面戰略夥伴關係以及其他18項協議。 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3149.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3152.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
習近平訪問塞爾維亞．並在會務總統伍契奇．宣布簽訂29項的合作協議．並發布聯合聲明將雙方全面戰略夥伴關係提升為命運共同體 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3168.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3187.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
塞芳在聯合聲明中重申堅定支持《一國中國》的原則,並謬稱台灣是中國領土不可分割的一部分,反對任何形式的台灣獨立,並重申不同意台灣當局進行任何形式的官方往來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3188.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3203.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
外交部對塞爾維亞矮化我國地位的錯誤論述予以嚴正的駁斥重申中華民國臺灣是主權獨立的國家與中華人民共和國互不隸屬且中華人民共和國未曾統治過臺灣一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3205.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3218.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
任何扭曲臺灣主權地位的說法都不會改變臺海現狀以及國際公認客觀的事實對匈牙利提及一個中國原則外交部也表示失望 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3220.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3242.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
再次感謝大院及各位委員對於我國國際處境及外交工作的關心。自習近平訪歐之行可以看到,歐盟與中國在區域安全以及經濟安全等議題上存在許多分歧,且歐盟近年積極推動去風險化等經貿安全的戰略。 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3243.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3265.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
臺灣將持續與法國及歐盟等理念相近的夥伴,持續強化互惠互利的合作關係,共同提升全球民主供應鏈的安全與韌性,並創造亞太區域的和平及繁榮。敬請大院委員先進不吝指導,持續給予本部大力支持。 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3272.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3273.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3298.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3301.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
謝謝主席,有請田次長,還有領務局何局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3310.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3311.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
羅委員您早 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3334.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3335.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3365.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3366.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
外交部多次要求移除哈薩克、白俄羅斯、烏茲別克等3個國家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3385.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3385.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
請問田次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3414.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3437.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
首先還是要謝謝羅委員對這個結婚面談這個事情的一直的關注那麼我想外交部在結婚自由以及防堵非法境外入境的這方面我們要採取一個平衡所以上次跟您報告以後我們領務局的同仁已經出發到了越南 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3438.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3444.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
因為這個時間當然可能還要給我們一點時間因為這個量是非常的大不過已經在進行了另外有些國家呢我們已經取消了他結婚面談一些文件的驗證因為確實他們有些國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3465.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3469.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
是不是我可以請林務局長很詳細跟您說明一下麻煩何局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3472.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3498.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
謝謝委員徐馨這個問題我想上一次我們也跟委員報告過我們大概年初就已經因為我們不定期都會去檢討相關的這個制度那其實到現在到這個月應該我們已經接近檢討完成的這個階段所以我想跟委員報告很短的時間之內我們會朝向這個在精簡的方向去跟委員做報告那個就是面談的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3499.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3527.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
就是面談的國家,所以有些國家其實是會再次的移除嘛有些,就是說剛才我所提到,像波達塞內加爾、斯里蘭卡這些國家根本就沒有人要申請這個簽證了所以你掛在帳面上其實真的很不OK,像柬埔寨柬埔寨說實在的,為什麼在東南亞國家裡面柬埔寨會是申請面談人數最少的那是因為他們的國家其實要去面談,其實這個不容易也不可能,所以要跑一趟越南 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3528.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3553.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
所以就算柬埔寨的這個人民想要跟國人結婚這是一個非常困難的一條路那是不是就有機會是說把柬埔寨的面談是不是先移除這個部分完成程序後我們會會正式公告所以說你們其實已經有這個調整的這個動作了倒是調整完的話會對我報告的意思嗎希望能夠提到聽到這個好消息好那再來就是何局長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3556.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3580.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我剛剛有聽了就是國安局跟這個我們外交部的專題報告那國安局跟外交部都認為歐盟與中國在區域安全跟經濟安全等議題其實存在了很多的這個分歧所以我們認為說那外交部是認為說台灣呢將持續跟法國跟歐盟的理念相近的國家其實都可以合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3581.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3606.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
繼續合作下去是比較樂觀的一個想法可是呢國安局卻認為就是說中共可能會持續分化歐盟內部跟美歐關係然後連帶牽制取等對台政策的這個立場那其實我們都知道就是說法國的總理馬克宏其實很積極的推動歐洲戰略自主他們想在防疫跟國家安全上面避免成為美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3607.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3612.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這幾年來法國跟中國是眉來眼去的他們希望把中國視為一個平衡的力量那再來的話像這次習近平到了法國塞爾維亞跟匈牙利我們會不會擔心就是說中國往後會在歐盟這個國家一一來做這個擊破然後對於我們跟這個歐洲在疫情 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3634.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3634.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
會不會有這種狀況?我們會擔憂嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3653.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3673.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我們相信習近平這次訪歐洲絕對不會是唯一的一次我想在未來這個期間他會分別的不但去訪問或者去邀請一些歐洲的國家來訪問中國這是一定會發生的事情但是我們也可以看得出來這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3674.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3680.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
即使在中國跟法國建交60週年,非常重要的一個時間,然後法國也要舉行奧運,而且它的經貿問題,對,停火協定,這對法國很重要的,但是法國也一再再重申對台灣海峽的安全跟穩定是非常重要的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3697.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3699.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以我覺得他們是從兩個方面來看這個問題經貿的議題的安全的問題他們做一個很聰明的一個區隔當然比如說塞爾維亞這是鐵桿的匈牙利這個可能搖動性比較難 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3712.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3736.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
但是我們現在在歐盟所做的一些工作事實上也可以做一些平衡如果委員也注意到最近歐盟的一些國家在臺灣的支持的力度也非常非常的強所以我們必須趁這個時候跟民主like-minded country怎麼樣結合在一起用臺灣的優勢、民主、自由、人權來強化跟他們的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3737.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3764.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這是我們目前維持了非常好應該是過往最好的一次我們跟歐洲的這個關係我想是這個關係是在這麼多年以來我們跟歐洲的關係是最好的一次所以我們也很擔心習近平就像市長您剛所提到的習近平的這個訪歐絕對不是唯一的一次我們也很擔心他一次一次的訪歐然後跟歐洲之間的互動越來越親密因為我們也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3767.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3777.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我們也會覺得說像烏克蘭、烏俄戰爭其實這個可能也許會已經到了這個尾聲我想歐盟是不是有些國家也希望跟中國來修補這個關係這個會不會是台灣的一個危機我們所擔心的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3783.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3805.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
其實烏克蘭戰爭其實是把臺灣推到了更一個更高的高度跟這些理念相近國家是怎樣結合在一起就是剛才我所提到的就是大家在反侵略的風潮之下臺灣其實是受到很多歐洲國家的認同可是當這個風潮過的時候呢臺灣會不會跟歐洲的關係呢是有所變化比較擔心的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3806.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3814.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
與委員包括我們會持續的跟歐洲、歐盟的國家以及全世界的理念相近的國家持續的以臺灣的優勢跟他們加強關係。 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3842.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3847.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
謝謝主席,我們請田次長請田次長學院長早安,次長,我想要請問您喔知道在那個期刊雜誌Financial Times在3月27號有關於捷克與台灣晶片產業項目衝突解析的報導嗎?你有掌握嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3875.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3894.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
傑克的晶片 了解一點我講的是在financial times裡面的內容不是我們說臺灣跟傑克之間的關係這一點我沒有掌握不過我看看我們的市長有沒有掌握好 你們的市長有沒有掌握 來 說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3896.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3904.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我想這個報導裡面有非常多不是事實好,我們等一下就來討論哪裏不是事實也給你們一個誠心的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3905.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3929.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那在這個報導裏面提到我們2023年11月由與捷克簽署烏克蘭重建工作的MOU實際過程當中我國與捷克有不少涉及先進晶片產業發展與工業的經費是由我國提供主要預算請問這件事情是真的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3930.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3935.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
是的是真的嘛所以也不是說整篇的內容都是不實的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3936.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3965.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那我有看到你們在一個即時新聞澄清官區裡面有寫到一些內容那因為時間的關係我們不一一贅述我們從裡面來討論那外交部在4月24號的時候說到我們在民國111年跟捷克開始協商一項5年的計劃要在捷克成立先進晶片設計中心討論也進入到 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3965.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3969.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個金額部分我們並沒有公開不過基本上我們跟他們之間沒有報導所稱的預算上的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3995.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4011.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
2023年11月,台灣行政院公佈了《精創台灣法案》的計畫,有這件事吧?這是國科會的業務但是我們跟捷克來說,還是跟外交部有關嗎?很多的談判上面來說的話,國科會出的錢嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4014.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4016.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
計劃章中寫道,10年內要投資3000億台幣,運用台灣半導體的優勢,結合人工AI技術的創新,布局未來的產業科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4032.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4046.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
國科會的計劃,他們準備在捷克舉辦精創海外基地,還要成立半導體的研究中心。這個報導也提到說本來今年2月就要推動撥款 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4048.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4065.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
但是國科會主委表示在捷克大學的項目不是跟捷克合作也不勉強簽署台捷科技的合作協議想請問這件事情外交部怎麼看有沒有接到捷克方面對於此事的反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4067.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4080.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
捷克曾經跟我們表達說這個計劃跟委員剛剛所講的計劃兩者是如何區別那我們也跟什麼區別我們就是說這是兩個計劃您剛剛講的第一個是外交部的計劃第二個是國科會的計劃第一個計劃是 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4084.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4112.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
捷克與臺灣晶片產業項目衝突解析的計劃是這樣嗎?不是,第一個計劃你把兩個計劃的名稱說清楚第一個計劃是先進晶片中心的計劃這個是外交部的計劃第二個計劃是國科會以國內的以晶片為基礎的創新為中心延伸到國外的計劃這是兩個不同的計劃那外交部的計劃總共預計投入多少的預算跟資源? |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4112.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4133.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
剛剛有跟委員報告就是說這個計劃我的印象是現在沒有對外公佈實際上的金額那國科會的有嘛那國科會公佈的叫做十年內投資3000億台幣那是不是我們在投入的經費上面跟我們的這個有落差我們看一下下一張投影片好不好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4135.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4162.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
可以看到,國科會,這是國科會的他有提到的是,包含是29億2000萬等等的臺灣精創方案,300億的預算,一年至少要花300億300億減掉我們今年編的是94.9億,等於是205億所以有很大的落差,這是國科會的部分那剛剛您講了外交部的部分,不能說我就不問了 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4164.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4187.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
但是立法院在國科會主管的報告裡面所提到的我們剛剛的預算跟當時跟捷克承諾的部分有很大的落差我當時問的問題是捷克有沒有向我方反映包含國科會跟外交部的計劃在預算跟撥款上面跟先前講的不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4188.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4204.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
並沒有並沒有,他們不在乎不是,是因為這個是媒體的錯誤報導事實上我們跟捷克一直在在洽談如何妥善的執行因此我們到目前也都還沒有撥款 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4205.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4206.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
因為我們的約是這幾天才有可能談定因為我們要求建立一個監督的委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4222.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4241.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這幾天才談定那跟蕭美琴準副總統到捷克參訪有任何的關聯嗎?沒有任何關聯他們也沒有談到那你們是在什麼時候開始洽談這個方案的呢?應該是在去年中開始但是因為這個案子是我國第一次對外推動半導體的相關的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4241.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4264.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以在這個半導體的相關合作上面在Financial Times上面就說在涉及具體的資金多付上台灣的調子非常的慢而且台灣曾經許諾投入不少於3300萬美金用於台捷民主夥伴供應鏈韌性計劃你有聽過這個計劃嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4269.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4286.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
有當然剛剛委員所提到的先進晶片設計中心就是其中一個部分那兩項重點的撥款項目是1350萬美元跟600萬美元而捷克方面至今沒有收到該項目的任何一筆經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4288.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4303.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
請問外交部知道這件事情嗎?或者這是一個錯誤的報導嗎?這是錯誤的資訊您剛提到有一個600萬的預算我沒有辦法確認它的金額目前不過有這件事但是我們已經撥款了你已經撥款600萬的美元給捷克 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4306.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4308.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那請問ACDRC本來是臺灣跟捷克要共同舉辦的開幕儀式 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4337.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4351.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
請問這件事情還有要繼續辦嗎?這件事情還會繼續辦但是因為我們約要先簽所以會在三月中的時候辦嗎?不會啊,現在已經五月了那為什麼三月中當時討論要辦卻延遲了呢?因為我們的約還沒有簽 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4357.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4373.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
約還沒有錢那預計什麼時候要辦理我想應該是這幾天這一兩個禮拜之內這一兩個禮拜那最後我要講一下結論就是呢在這個financial times裡面呢認為說撥款的速度太慢讓捷克方面有一點不滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4373.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4389.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
最後給大家看一張照片這是捷克半導體的投資商機說明會我們看到二月份的時候崇越科技跟投資捷克的代表捷克經濟駐文化辦事處簽署合作備忘錄MOU就這麼剛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4393.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4418.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
崇越科技的董事長郭志輝也就是現在的準經濟部長我不曉得是暗示了他當時就被內定為經濟部長還是接下了經濟部長之後有實質的影響力讓崇越科技有角色變成郭志輝的關係從經濟部跟民間部門有資源上面的互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4421.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4434.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這個研討會是捷克代表處舉辦的,並不是我方舉辦的對啊,不是啊,但是我要問你的是說我們裡面有這個準經濟部長這件事情,你們的看法跟態度是什麼嗎?捷克代表處邀請新東向協會舉辦的,那細節我們並不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4437.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4453.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
未來在台灣跟半導體的投資方面因為台灣跟捷克還是會透過外交部嘛很多事情的進行那請問未來我們的經濟部長先前所待的重樂科技在裡面會不會有角色你們知不知情 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4455.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4458.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
民間企業自主行為外交部並不會介入這恐怕要問經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4473.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4485.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們是平行機構那對涉外事務如果需要跨部會的協調那我們一定會處理但是有關於這個委員剛剛問的案子我們實在是沒有辦法去問經濟部因為這個應該是委員的權責好 謝謝接下來請黃仁委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4503.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4507.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
有請我們田次長請田次長我先講一個題外話今天創造了一個歷史是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4519.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4545.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
部長提告國會的議員這樣的一個例子所以這個就是我們一直在國會裡面趕快提出藐視國會罪的立場包含調查權包含聽證權的目的就在這裡官員來這個地方就是準備背刑不是反執行所以這個部分必須要跟部長一定要提示 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4547.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4567.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個創造了所有在世界裡面哪有部長提高國會的議員這樣的一個立場實在是非常不解請次長轉交轉化給部長我的立場那至於關於立陶宛代表處可能會招明除名這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4569.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4592.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我國的立陶宛辦事處會不會被改名因為目前總統選舉在5月12號在進行中而現在總統在選前就已經向我國的駐外立陶宛的代表處已經希望改為台灣改為台北處有沒有這回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4595.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4601.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個在選舉期間政治人物的發言我們予以尊重這個你們的態度勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4606.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4628.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
但是如果委員您如果有注意到12號的時候記者再問這個老賽達萬一你選上總統的話你對台灣的態度是什麼他的語調已經更改了他要持續跟台灣維持文化與經濟的深化 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4631.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4652.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
所以我認為那個部分可能是選舉上的一種語言好,你們現在有沒有掌握到立陶宛現在目前官方正以對岸大陸有一些密切的一個正常化的一個關係有沒有掌握到有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4653.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4670.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
有,所以你們有沒有危機意識今天會有這樣的一個態度就表示你們外交部現在也是岌岌可危應該你們要著重在這個角度我上次在質詢部長的時候我特別提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4671.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4693.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
特別是海地的這個關係可能是不是岌岌可危可能會不會有變數你們部長特別提出說沒有這個變數但是他在這個媒體裡面就已經提出他有兩個隱憂這個隱憂就是第一個就是海地第二個瓜地馬拉 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4695.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4715.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這個就已經隱憂在這個地方當然在520之前你們要掩蓋事實還是覆蓋這個事實不要在520之後發生這樣的問題到了520之後是不是有這樣的危機而且是非常嚴重你們應該要誠實以對告訴給國人現在的發生問題即將要發生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4724.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4738.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
請教,對不起委員,您剛剛說部長有提到那兩個國家嗎?好像沒有,他說兩個國家有隱憂,我聽到的是這樣,而且部長也講得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4739.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4739.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
好﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4763.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4790.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
所以現在520之前你們認為沒有但是有這個隱憂存在這也是部長在親口對著媒體所講的對兩個隱憂你們本來就應該常常隱憂因為我們的邦交國只是剩下12個現在沒有突發性的現在你們卻要再把預注在東歐這個國家所以現在由 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4791.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4816.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
就此的520有8個國家政府研所會來參加那另外4個國一個隨教廷之外另外3國是不是有隱憂這個隱憂是不是可能會展現出他們對我們國內進行未來可能要斷交的可能性為什麼他們不來你來回答一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4817.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4845.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們三個其他三個都會來教廷也會派特使來但是層級來說可能不是總理或總統的他是副總理或者副總統教廷也會派特使所以12個邦交國都會有高級的代表來參加另外四國裡面除了教廷之外另外三國應該如果假使對我們國內的邦交是正常化 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4846.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4864.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
而且是12個國家裡面應該會政府元首應該都會派不是特使不是大使那這個三個國家裡面表示是不是也是存在著一個隱憂而且產生了對我們國內對我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4866.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4868.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
謝謝委員的提醒不過我本人也做過總統的特使去參加馬紹爾 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4882.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4882.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
你剛剛講的馬紹爾去年的失業 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4908.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4918.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
有一個學者叫黃介正提醒落魯邦交可能生變結果外交部反而大罵黃介正結果到最後勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4922.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4945.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這個新任的總統為我國長期有人堅定支持兩國邦誼最終不到三個月的時間落魯就以我國斷交所以你們今天所講的你們要負責任但是不能夠斷言你們希望也一定要產生一個隱憂一定會另外上次我跟外交部長我特別提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4946.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4967.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們國內的原住民是屬於南東以西的民族希望能夠跟南東以西的民族裡面20個聯邦國可以作為我們有任所的大使進行邦交增加我們的外交的力量你們有沒有這個思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4968.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4988.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
有的跟委員報告您上次大概我們也報告過了不是無認所現在是有認所可以實質有權跟我們這些南歐以西的民俗的國家裡面作為進行的邦交這是促進我們國內增加邦交的一個立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4989.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5015.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們以前斐濟的代表好像就是原住民出來的所以其實外交部在這一塊都有到注意到各個族群他怎麼樣在他的職業生涯上做到一個大使這個我們會特別做但是我們不會獨厚一個族群我想這個不會的你也不會要求我們獨厚一個族群我們是公平的競爭希望520之後你們可以這個思考這個議題因為這是對我國 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5018.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5019.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
馬文君委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5049.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5054.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩請外交部田次長還有我們國安局徐副局長請兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5063.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5091.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
馬委員早次長早次長我想要先請教一下因為這幾天可能這一段時間以來對於外交的事務上面其實大家也都非常關注尤其在520即將到來之前那可能在整個國際局勢還有我們周邊台海局勢大家也都非常的關注那我想先請教我們自己國內近期發生的一些風風雨雨 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5092.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5097.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我想要請教田次長,您背一般的意義是什麼?就你的理解這是非常接地氣的一個語言,我的認為是這樣子在民間常常用這句話,民間用這句話,我的理解是這樣子我可能錯,因為台語沒什麼認證,我沒有用過我也沒有用過,我第一次講 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5125.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5140.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個一般它是接地氣沒有錯可是它的用法上面它會用在哪裡就是我很高高在上我很高傲我的地位比較高還是怎麼樣還是我這個是什麼樣的就你的理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5144.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5164.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我必須說我對語言的研究實在是不夠在這裡講但是語言是根據時代不同在變遷以前我們聽起來覺得這可能是高高在上現在聽起來可能是我們兄弟的意思或者這樣子我可能有錯誤請原諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5167.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5181.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
謝謝你難怪可以在外交部而且今天可以代表前來參加可是外交部就這個部分因為我要再一次提醒今天如果是我們一般人你可以這樣的用詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5183.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5196.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
尤其是外交人員你們的潛質用具其實一般來說都是非常精準的那個已經不是稱兄道弟你今天不管是在國際的場合上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5197.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5215.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
你的運用其實是比一般人還更精準的你今天如果用在國內或者甚至對於國人或者甚至是對於國會的議員其實這樣子在外交的訓練上面其實可能是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5216.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5230.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
有需要去做非常大的檢討。今天不是外交部長在這裡,不然其實可能要詢問的是他。你說稱兄道弟那是你說的,你說你的台語不好,你還可以把他提於詮釋到這麼好,也是不簡單。不過,我們現在要講的是,今天如果我們外交會失敗,就是因為這樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5239.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5246.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
你今天過去外交的潛質用具或者任何的場合他都應該要拿捏分寸他應該什麼時候應該要做什麼樣的事情說什麼樣的話這是非常重要的今天不管你喜不喜歡這個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5255.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5278.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
今天不管你喜不喜歡這個人你在外交的一個條件上面或者你的身份上面尤其是一個部長其實這個應該更重視因為未來會更高升他的面向會更廣這個部分我認為這個是有非常嚴重的瑕疵在這裡我要提醒一下所以今天我們接下來要問的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5279.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5282.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我想要請教剛剛也有委員關切到我們現在的立陶宛剛剛您說那是他在選舉過程的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5288.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5291.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
可是現在第一階段現任的總統納賽達其實他已經贏過第一輪了那接下來他很可能還是會繼續當選立陶宛的總統那如果在他的新的任期有可能改變就是把我們的代表處從台灣變成台北那我們會怎麼樣因應或會有什麼樣的做法或者我們應該要怎麼樣看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5319.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5338.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
跟委員先做一個報告當時這個名稱的成立是經過兩國政府沒有關係現在我們說未來因為那時候在我們國內也做了很多的大內宣我們現在是說還是同一個人可是他的做法已經改變了那是有什麼樣的變化或我們做的不夠我們給的不夠多還是有什麼樣的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5342.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5352.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
中共當然它的壓力也是會有,或者它的威脅力又有各方面我們不知道可是就這個方面我們應該要怎麼面對,我說的我的問題是說我們應該怎麼樣去看待怎麼樣去面對,或者我們有什麼樣的應處的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5359.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5363.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
在12號的時候就納賽達接受媒體的訪問媒體已經問他這個問題沒關係啊,如果我說問他如果再當選嘛,他如果這麼做不要去推測他的一個說法、態度什麼我說他很可能繼續當選,那我們會怎麼做他必須跟我們兩國的政府再來談這個問題那我們的立場是非常堅定的那他如果還是一樣堅持呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5388.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5395.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
其實我不應該回答這樣這假設性的問題其實我真的不想回答你不是不想回答或你不用回答這個是你立陶宛我們花了多少的國家的預算你用了人民的納稅錢然後你跟大家說我們跟他建立非常好的關係然後你做了大內宣以後你說現在是假設性的問題今天我們在國會問的就是你過去曾經做的曾經花的錢你做過的努力你應該要怎麼樣去因應跟應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5417.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5419.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
委員我剛才已經報告過如果他提出來那麼我們兩國政府還會再就這個問題來談如果不行呢就像丹麥一樣丹麥把我們的國籍的名稱我們完全沒有選項除了香港還有澳門 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5436.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5440.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
還有一個就是中國我們中華民國的國民到底應該要選哪一個你們到現在沒有一個答案當然這是丹麥他們方面可以做這樣的一個處置可是我們跟他雖然沒有邦交我們也沒有太大的話語權立陶宛不太一樣我們為了立陶宛甚至可能失去了一個邦交國那時候因為我們的邦交國認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5462.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5490.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我們厚恥薄彼對於非邦交國給的利益或者給的好處更多所以也憤而跟我們斷交這是理由之一第二個我們那時候提供了很多的優惠不管是生技不管是我們的半導體還是我們的太陽能的這樣的一個技術我們提供了很多很多的資源甚至買了他的紅酒做了很多很多的付出我們換了一個台灣的代表處 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5491.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5507.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
可是現在如果他沒有了在這麼短的時間而且還同一個總統的情況之下你必須對我們國人有一個交代不要再拿中共當理由他在第一次跟我們用台灣代表處的時候中共也在啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5508.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5532.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
也存在阿,他的壓力也存在阿,他的威脅也存在阿,那時候可以,未來如果不行,你們必須要給國人一個充分的理由,或者應處的作為,不用邦交國一直丟了也沒關係,然後新的我們一直花了很多的資源,用了很多的心力,然後他又變更了也沒關係,我們不是跟他建交喔,他只是用了一個代表處的名稱而已,後來英文還改成Taiwanese, |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5533.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5549.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這個到底是什麼樣的一個做法要給國人一個交代這是我們的外交上面你們自己的作為我們大家一直在支持雖然你丟了那麼多邦交國為什麼大家沒有太多的責難是因為外交大家是一致的是對外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5549.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5559.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
可是當你對外對其他的國家你可以付出很多可以用很多微軟的聲音微軟就是比較柔和的態度可是對於國內態度之強硬然後不管是告啦罵啦拎杯啦都出來了像這樣子的做法我覺得這個不是一個外交的外交部或者相關的外交人員應該做的事你對外 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5578.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5608.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5611.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5634.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
謝謝馬委員 那我們下一位請林楚瑩委員質詢謝謝主席主席有請國安局的徐副局長請徐副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5640.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5668.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
謝謝主席 委員好副局長剛剛問到的是有關於外交的部分那所以說我就直接因為今天時間比較短我就直接進入有關於520現在我們所面臨的除了在外交上面中國給我們不斷的穿小鞋可能給予一些外交上面的壓力之外在對內的部分是我們比較可以有機會我們自己來好好守護的因為畢竟外交的部分操之在別人的手上包括中國同樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5669.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5683.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
也會利用金錢以及武力方面的勢力來給予我們的友好的友邦來做壓力那麼友邦有自己內政的問題我們能夠插手的部分不多但是我們自己在國內的部分現在有媒體都不斷的釋出警訊說在520之前中國會從然認知作戰那麼確實我們也看到許多來路不明或者是消息用所謂打聽傳聞這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5695.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5716.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
自演所出來的訊息不論是透過什麼樣的管道釋出但是都可以看得出來這有可能都是中國在520之前的認知作戰但是現在大家比較覺得國安局是不是有訊息的那就是駭客可不可能入侵我們的網路來造成一些重要的網路的癱瘓甚至於出現一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5717.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5732.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
給予倒戰式的這樣的留言又或者是說乾脆就設入我們的基礎的關鍵設施來搞大停電阿等等請問國安局現在有接收到相關的訊息嗎?那麼做了哪些的準備?在可以透露的情況之下可不可以讓本席了解? |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5734.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5750.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
謝謝委員,我想妄害的結合任職作戰是中共常用的手法,那我們國安局還是會收集我們國內的所有的資訊,也統合所有的國安團隊密切的注意這一方面的訊息及時應處。 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5751.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5754.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
好所以我要問的就是比較具體的問現在有關於網路或基礎設施這樣的所謂侵害或侵擾造成520之前或520當天或者是521這樣很接近520的時刻出現所謂恐慌你們有接受到這樣的情資嗎?有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5772.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5785.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我們都有在持續注意它的發展但是目前都是比較臨時性的一些爭議的訊息我們也都會及時應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5789.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5806.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好 因為尤其是上網路的這個部分我們當然知道其實在小英總統執政的這8年過程當中包括總統府或重要的一些網站被攻擊的次數是與日俱增那麼相信你們在這邊都有持續的做一個關注是 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5807.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5836.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
好另外其實我比較在乎的是我在今年3月的時候就曾經對國安局的蔡局長提出質疑就是中國方方面面給台灣壓力尤其是在520前後除了剛剛講到的外交除了講到520就職典禮之外那麼現在最重要的就是以通促融包括這種所謂從地方包圍中央現在的地方政府已經成為了中國滲入的窗口嗎我們來看一下我這是擷取至北甘相公所 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5836.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5856.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
的網站直接就說可以代辦斧馬同城通我請問副局長像這樣子連江縣政府的焦慮局直接把資料交給中國這個符合現行的法規嗎請問你們在我3月質詢之後有持續的監測或了解這個案子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5858.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5882.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
謝謝委員,我們有掌握到目前大概申辦人數有三千人,這個我們有去了解請問這樣的做法合規嗎?合法嗎?這個可能會有兩岸人民關係條例的問題,如果有合作的行為的話,我們會把相關的資料發給你那請問這樣的代辦算不算合作? |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5883.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5903.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個相關的情節的話,我們會交給權責單位去做認定所以會交給哪個權責單位?如果是地方政府的部分,交給陸委會?是好,因為我們都知道這個以通促融,如果地方政府現在變成窗口的話窗口一開,我必須現在以地方來講的話,國民黨的執政縣市超過半數 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5907.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5921.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
如果此例一開,會不會變成是不用核備中央地方就可以,地方政府就變成了中國滲透台灣以通促融的一個窗口你看喔,縣長是帶頭直接在臉書上面就直接說馬祖鄉親,一人一卡,駙馬同城通,這代為宣傳耶那麼地方政府到中國去提出的所有的會台政策以代辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5934.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5961.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
代辦算不算合作如果說這些東西沒有掌握的話就會成為滲透的空間或者是就給予了這樣的一個管道我要我特別今天質詢國安局的部分是因為基照兩岸人民關係條例的第9條第4項地方政府的首長要進入中國必須要提報一個審查會審查會當中當然你提到的陸委會之外法務部還有國安局其實也是審查會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5963.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5982.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
成員對不對是好那我們知道如果一旦地方政府的首長要到中國去他就會進入一個他們人事或是政風單位會進入一個所謂申請的表格但是這個申請表格只說停留的地點行程還有訪問的單位但是這會不會流於格式化會不會流於格式化那麼比如說像這一個2月10號的這個會面或者是說這樣的一個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5992.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6020.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
已經發生了但是國安局有掌握嗎這個會不會變成是上有政策下有對策副局長謝謝委員這個我們尊重我們夜館單位他們所設計的表格我們是提供一些情報的資料而已我了解所以這是我要問的下一個問題就是如果在你所提報的資料當中以現在這樣的方式算不算是已經一種滲透的形式國安局怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6021.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6039.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們都會注意相關的情資那對於這個行為我們也會深入的了解好所以這個行為對你們來說我只有兩個問題第一個是代辦算不算合作算不算違反了現行的兩岸人民關係條例第二個當然你說你會交給夜館單位那麼對國安局來講你們就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6043.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6055.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所謂的去做情資的收集那麼像這樣的方式有沒有可能單點突破之後持續擴大變成是未來地方政府可以用這樣的方式來做一個滲透這會不會成為一個滲透的樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6058.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6077.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我們都會深刻的瞭解收集相關的資料好,我身為副局長我知道你不是主觀啦你很難回答啦但是這個如果連你都無法判定那麼接下來就是感覺上這就是一個破口喔因為你只說深入瞭解喔但是沒有給答案喔是,我們會深入瞭解,是 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6083.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6089.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問如果連這樣的所謂防範滲透的樣態這算不算你都不可以有答案只有深入了解那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在你們都沒有了解是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6102.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6106.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我沒有要你制止正常的訪問,而是在訪問之後所衍生出來的這樣的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6118.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6132.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
您認為沒有問題或是您認為它連是一個滲透的樣態你都無法回應或回答嗎?因為有些是會牽扯到各自的問題這個都是有法律邊緣的問題這個都是我們注意的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6136.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6160.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
時間到我不想占用後面的時間但是我認為副局長你沒有聽清楚我要詢問的就是這樣一個方式對他一切按照規矩來但是他在訪問之後他所衍生出來的合作方案代辦方案等不等於合作違不違反現行的法規他會不會成為一個滲透的新樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6165.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6180.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這的確有那個風險存在,也是我們現在會去積極深入了解的地方。好,我希望這個部分你們能夠做出一些小叮嚀,做出一些相態的形式,讓其他相關的單位作為參考,好嗎?好,謝謝,謝謝委員。好,謝謝。接下來請沈伯陽委員上台諮詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6200.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6201.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
有請田次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6210.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6233.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
早,那這個因為剛剛楚英委員有提到這個國安相關的事項本來今天也想問但是我覺得這一個我們可能留待剛剛這個主席也有提到啦搞不好在這幾天的機會國安選會來所以我今天針對外交的部分來問那這個第一個我先來講一下因為最近這個風風雨雨本來謠傳說這個今天有很多委員想要來針對外交部來問這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6235.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6251.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
但是可能因為今天部長沒來我猜可能會到禮拜三禮拜四但不管怎樣我覺得先定調一下我覺得這整件事情其實非常的單純那這一個次長可以看到我這邊有整理幾個我們刑法目前的一個規定109條是這一個國防相關的文書132條就這一次比較爭議性的這個國防以外的這一個秘密那318條是跟這一個公務員有關但是是工商秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6263.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6282.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
其實我覺得在這邊說真的行政跟立法都有自己的分界就好像今天行政上有行政的特權但我不可能說行政的特權可以殺人放火立法委員當然也有我們自己的權利但也不代表立法委員有把密件可以拿出來透露的權利這其實是兩件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6283.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6304.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
在這一邊我想藉由這個機會告訴大家像318條公務員他去洩漏的時候他限定的並不是所有的秘密他是限定在工商秘密那109條他是國防的一秘密也就是說目前在我們刑法的規範上面其實秘密基本上是要限定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6304.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6330.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
就是他特定的秘密他不是所有的秘密那不然的話這樣會處罰過廣的問題那這一次比較爭議性的132條就是到底這一次呢在記者會被拿出來的到底是不是因秘密這件事情他當然可以討論嘛對不對但是呢我也必須要告訴大家就是請問今天外交部在判斷秘密這件事情不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定還是要實質上去認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6334.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6356.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這個案我們認為在形式跟實質上都有權利做一個判斷好 謝謝次長那其實呢一直在這個法律上的判斷只要是形式上已經符合秘密譬如說它上面有個密件嘛寫個密基本上就必須要做這個告發的行為那至於實質上它到底符不符合這三個字叫因秘密這交給法官來判斷交給檢察官來判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6358.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6375.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以當然外交部會有外交部的立場但其實這件事情非常的簡單就是我們看到他是一個密件這個密件在形式上已經符合這個所謂的秘密的文書所以外交部依他的職權就來告訴這個相關的檢查單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6376.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6392.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以我們都是這樣子在看一個案件10%的嫌疑20%的嫌疑到檢察官起訴可能是5、60%的嫌疑法官確定這真的是問題了那就是百分之百了嘛對不對所以是一步一步往上的倒不是說什麼今天行政單位像外交部他必須要去實質認定這個內部如此詳細的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6395.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6419.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那我知道因為這幾天這個爭議可能會很大所以我想說在這個前面呢先跟大家講一下整件事情的一個來龍去脈那接下來呢我想針對是今天的這一個問題就是因為今天的題目是在講說就是這個習近平跑到歐洲去這一個的一個過程那我這邊重整了一下就是在2022年的時候呢這個習近平有跟這個普丁見面然後後來呢這個俄羅斯也入侵了烏克蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6420.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6435.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
後來他有在2023年的時候去敘利亞後來2023年不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了所以對我來講其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去建這些可能跟台灣有關的友邦 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6435.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6459.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
而是去見到一些跟中國更為靠近的一些國家所以這個對我來講有時候我們今天要看的這一個框架可能不太在於說像他去法國這件事情而是他如果在這一個行程當中他又跑去了一些其他國家我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事那所以呢像這一個跟拜登會面像這個是我們的民主同盟的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6459.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6460.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
邀請國家安全局． |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6478.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6479.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
習近平訪歐後國安之影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6498.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6515.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
為什麼呢?就是因為我覺得以這個外交部的立場或者以次長的立場來講就是現在南海的這一個局勢跟我們今天本來要討論台海局勢嘛就是說他今天訪歐跟台海局勢的關係這個南海的局勢跟台海的局勢比起來不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6517.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6533.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我個人覺得在南海的可能是比較危險一點的好那謝謝次長這個你跟這一個我們的這一個這個美國相關的判斷是一致的他們認為現在南海的風險其實是非常非常高的那在南海風險比較高的狀況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6534.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6557.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我們現在其實中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突其實非常的多那我們也可以看到這個在前面他們好幾次的這個國際上的一些這個協定或者說這個一些仲裁的一些結果中國不願意接受那接下來這個夏立遠在2024年3月去訪中之後回來這個應該還不到回來的時候就是馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的一個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6559.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6577.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
因為太平島它之所以重要是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要它不是對我國重要而已它對菲律賓也很重要對中國也很重要所以這件事情對我來講反而有可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為如果我們今天在太平島上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6579.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6601.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所作所為中國可能會被拿去利用但我這邊也是要強調一件事情我完全不反對說去太平島這件事我覺得這個是以我們的各個委員如果有人想要去這絕對是他的權利而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內我比較擔心的事情是因為國台辦之前有發出一個聲明說他很高興 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6602.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6624.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這一個呢,我們現在有人可以跟我們共同守護這個相關的主權所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐啦所以呢,當然我們現在有委員要去,這是他們的權利但不知道外交部有沒有什麼一些研判的一些措出告訴我們這些要出發的委員說我們今天去的時候的過程,要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6624.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6646.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
因為我們可以預判說中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好不讓他利用的話那這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義所以不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判然後給這些能夠出發的委員能夠讓他們知道說有什麼事情可以做什麼事情不能做在整個南海的局勢上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6648.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6659.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6660.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6682.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那麼尊重立法委員如果要去訪問自己的國土我們是相當相當的尊重中間如果需要外交部協助的地方呢因為外交部會協助如果立法院到海外的話我們每一個道義國家我們都會協助但是到了太平島可能已經不是我們的範圍之內我們予以高度的祝福 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6683.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6684.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
高度的祝福 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6698.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6726.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那我最後一個稍微再給我30秒很不好意思就是目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情就是在2024年現在因為以往我們有這個叫做幽靈的九二共識就是完全不知道在講什麼九二共識就生出來了那現在因為剛剛在延續這個南海衝突目前菲律賓這個一直在駁斥因為中國就一直在講說他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個某一個協定有一個新模式已經談好了所以談好了之後那現在這個人是找不到人 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6726.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6752.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
但是偏偏中國最近釋出了那個錄音然後就說你看我們就已經談了關於南海的局勢這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話那像這種幽靈式的這種法律戰因為以往中國在像金門水域他做的事情是我真的創造一個既定的事實他再用法律框架把它框下去但現在不是他連法律框架跟事實都不具備他直接偽造了一個東西然後說我們已經談好了那我很怕說 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6753.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6754.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6792.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6794.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
國安局副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6802.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6826.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
謝謝主席委員長早安副局長我剛才有稍微聽到您跟林楚英委員的一些對話那我想我還是藉著這個機會來講一下我們官員面對國會議員的質詢的時候他不是禮貌的回應而已他必須有實質的內容因為你們講的每一句話可能他都有他的國際影響力然後現在是越來越重要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6826.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6837.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
所以比方剛才提到的說哪一些訪團來會不會造成什麼樣的國安風險你就講出來沒關係為什麼要講出來不然大家怎麼知道有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6838.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6854.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
所以我還是希望就是說我們每一位官員能夠盡量的針對問題來去提供他的看法他可以不用實質上面的把你說你什麼機敏資訊講出來但是大方向一定要有我想美國的這些官員們不管是商務部長還是他們的情報總監在面對參眾議員的問題的時候我們問一兩個問題他們就是盡量把他們所知道的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6862.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6868.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
主要是在討論習近平訪問這些歐洲的各國那我想請教一下你們怎麼評估這個習近平出訪這些歐洲的國家對我國的國家安全是有什麼樣的影響嗎還是其實沒有影響因為歐洲蠻遠的然後我們直接關係沒有所以沒關係你們怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6888.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6902.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
習近平訪問歐洲的對我們國家還是有一定的影響當然他主要是面對就是歐洲去風險化以及他 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6904.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6923.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
對於他想要拉攏法國來穩定歐洲以及要拉歐來治美因為他們之間仍然有經貿跟安全的一些旗艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6933.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6950.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
謝謝副局長的答覆那基本上是這樣那歐洲當然有各個國家中東歐國家對我國的立場當然是最近是更加友好那我們之前談到立陶宛的部分就是說他們要把我們的辦事處的名稱來做更改那同時在維也斯中國的第二大貿易 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6952.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6973.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
中國是塞爾維亞的第二大貿易夥伴其中它包含的軍售是僅次於俄羅斯提供給塞爾維亞所以我們可以知道說包含塞爾維亞或者是匈牙利這兩個國家是中國在整個歐洲分化削弱歐洲的能量的一個最好的一個渠道因為他們相對威權相對的有對中共相對的友善那換言之警報人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6974.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7002.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
或者是他們的國家安全人員或者是他們的軍方的人員在這兩個歐洲的國家裡面他們當然會放的心力跟資源就更多所以我們剛才提到說習近平他這是訪歐三個國家法國當然就是把這個歐盟的這個職位都全部都一起叫過來來確保歐洲是一個合作的不會被分化的但是馬上習近平接下來去訪問的兩個國家就剛好是分化歐洲的最好方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7002.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7019.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
俄羅斯、中國都在這兩個國家有這樣的做法我想知道說我們這個包含我們的國家的跟情報相關的這些部分對於中國的軍售在塞爾維亞還有這個跟對科索沃的這些做法操弄有沒有得到一些相關的資訊我問這個問題的原因是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7024.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7039.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
對於塞國、塞爾維亞、科索沃、俄羅斯、塞爾維亞、科索沃、烏克蘭這些國家的每一個情報戰、資訊戰都是未來我們可以參考的對象,包含他們的輿論戰都是,我想知道你這方面有沒有什麼看法? |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7040.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7067.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
的確在俄烏戰爭以後那中共大概取代俄羅斯的地位對塞維亞有一些軍售那個這個這個應該是沒有問題那至於科索沃的這個部分在某些程度上也似乎中共是應該是鼓勵就是也不排斥就是有支持他做這樣的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7069.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7095.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
好那接下來我們問一下跟520之前的可能的這個國家安全的考量那剛才林委員也提到520之前的有可能中共方面會怎麼出招包含在資源跟資訊這兩大方向資訊的話就是讓我國接受到他們想要傳達的資訊比方說上次佩洛西來台的時候他們就在便利商店等等的這些電視螢幕拿來投放他們想要投放的資訊在另外一個資訊就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7096.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7112.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
換言之就是說斷掉我們的可能的就是不管是之前我們看到海底電纜、馬祖那邊或者是說我們的通訊上面的設備這些或者是油、電、水、天然氣這些相關的資訊你們有沒有做好事先的預防跟強背 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7113.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7142.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
本局結合國安團隊非常關注這個問題因為中共有可能在520之前會利用這些網路的攻擊來操作一些足以影響大眾或是國家安全的一些管路那國安團隊都會密切的注意這方面的資訊然後及時應處並有對外來說明來穩定我們人民的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7143.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7156.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個問題是說,比方說在外交部的話,如果有國家,我們的邦交國出現警訊的話,他們會有紅色警訊啊,各種不同的燈號來去做預防,你們有沒有相關的,未來有沒有打算用這樣的資訊來提供給國人? |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7158.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7186.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
有有,這個在國安會的指導之下,我們都有應處的一些程序也就是說在有可能遇到襲擊之前先預先警示,這個部分你們會做嗎?未來會做嗎?會,我們會在最早的時間內收集到通知所有的選擇機關來應處對國民的部分會不會有相關的發表?會,會適時的來揭露來宣布好,謝謝,謝謝副市長,我們來請次長,外交部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7187.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7213.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
請外交部田次長市長早我們剛才提到太平島的議題那我還是講一下就是narrative很重要就是你要用什麼樣的方式去詮釋去輸說我國對此地的主權怎麼樣可以確保說我們的說法不跟中共是重複的、吻合的讓人家誤以為兩國的主權是共同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7214.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7220.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我們對太平島過去到現在將未來我們對太平島都是中華民國的領土如果這句話就跟中國一定切開了切得很清楚所以這個立場是絕對不會變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7244.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7263.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
主權上面,第二個部分是中國在南海的說法是什麼?九段線,我們可能是11段,那我們的說法又是什麼?他們倡議的主要的講法是什麼?我們要怎麼樣去definition我們的說法?那這個部分要怎麼樣跟這次選擇要去的立法委員講? |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7264.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7264.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我想立法委員去一定有他的智慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7283.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7309.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
在這個太平島就是中華民國的領土上不應該跟中國唱和好那次長我希望說提供給這些要去的中國國民黨的這些黨籍的或者是在野黨黨籍立法委員一個我們希望的一套的說法避免跟中共是有重疊的是最好是把我們的特色講出來我想這對台灣的主權還是非常重要的是謝謝次長好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7315.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7319.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
接下來,請王定宇委員上台諮詢王定宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7339.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7360.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
市長我們這幾年其實從臺美在臺灣關係法40週年以後臺美的關係一直往上走包含了這個北美協調會改成臺美美國事務委員會然後在隔年我們發現我們跟歐洲的進展也非常的快所以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7363.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7372.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我們看到的是 2021年不管是歐洲議會通過的報告書有關COVID-19或者2021年歐洲外交委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7374.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7393.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
大概是第一次那麼高票通過臺歐盟政治關係及合作臺灣跟歐盟的政治關係及合作的報告及修正提案2021年還有歐洲議會通過臺歐這個臺灣歐盟政治關係及合作報告書等等那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7394.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7412.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
今年初歐洲議會還通過共同外交及安全政策共同安全及防禦政策兩個決議案關心著中國升高台海危機片面用武力改變現狀這個都是臺歐之間正向的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7412.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7440.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那今天我們談到的是習近平到歐洲的訪問坦白講一次的訪問看不出什麼大的改變特別是在法國各說各話他拜訪塞爾維亞跟匈牙利本來就是親中的國家反而是他沒有去義大利因為一帶一路可能生變他原來友好的國家縮小了他能去的地方減少了這個是從拜訪的形式上但本席比較關心的是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7442.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7445.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
今年歐盟的輪值國是匈牙利 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7446.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7475.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
唯一的隱憂在這裡也就是說習近平最近訪歐那不管是拜訪的國家的質跟量談話的內容看起來不若以往以前他在中東歐那時候講幾加幾啊就是26加1還多少加1忘記了就是把整個中東歐的國家加上中國產生一個極大的影響力那現在那一些氛圍呢都已經逆轉中國成了歐盟報告書裡面的威脅者 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7476.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7501.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
他們還特別注意到北極那邊來自中國的可能威脅所以本期今天第一個問題要請教的是匈牙利會輪值主席國那這個輪值對於台灣跟歐盟的進展跟發展有沒有什麼影響特別是在我們今年里存有提到我們預計想要簽訂經貿或投資協定這個在今年初 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7506.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7521.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
李存提到說臺歐洽簽經貿或投資協定這個是在今年1、2月的時候提到的所以請問市長有關信用壓力的部分你們怎麼評估這個可不可以請市長幫我回答一下市長請說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7524.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7549.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
匈牙利是今年下半年擔任歐盟部長理事會的輪值主席但是因為今年6月份會有歐洲議會的選舉新的歐盟的執委會也必須要在9月、10月才會成立因此其實匈牙利的輪值主席所可以造成的影響在今年下半年是相當受限的他就是輪值的半年嗎?對因為他們的輪值主席有什麼權利? |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7550.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7572.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
他主席其實最大的權力是他的議程的排序但是因為今年下半年歐洲的政治情勢的變遷所以我們認為說當然還是有他的權力但是因為歐洲的執委會跟議會都在重組過程當中今年我們大概站在台灣我們一個海島型的國家我們要特別注意周邊局勢的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7573.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7593.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
日本有可能進行改選不管是6月或9月美國總統大選那歐盟的執委會還有歐洲議會在改選這一些都牽動著地緣政治甚至於獨裁國家用認知作戰去介入這些國家選舉都是我們要注意的所以我們還是回到我們今天的焦點就是說臺歐 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7595.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7617.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我相信外交部在過去這兩三年應該有感受到臺歐的關係是大幅的改善特別在中歐因為東歐國家不喜歡被人家稱為東歐了他們就中歐國家所以目前你們評估休亞利這個輪值主席剛好遇到歐盟在改選執委會在改組所以這半年的輪值不會影響到agenda的設定你們判斷是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7618.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7642.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
因為新的執委會歐盟的立法權是分享的那新的執委會形成之後會有新的執委會的agenda所以真正會主導未來幾年歐洲的這個政局的發展應該是下一屆執委會那你們有關注這些選舉的有沒有可能結構性的翻轉或改變目前看起來應該人民黨團在議會還是會佔多數所以民主派會比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7643.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7656.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
是基本上就是現在的權力結構不會有太大的改變那有關這個臺歐洽簽經貿或投資協定這個事情是一個努力的方向還是有具體的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7659.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7680.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
過去歐盟的這個回應曾經對我們的雙邊投資協定有正面的回應但是後來也失去了動能那因此我們現在主要是要重新倡議下遷比照我們跟美國的21世紀貿易協議失去動能的原因是什麼美國的21世紀貿易倡議有點像BTA嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7682.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7699.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
因為歐盟也是一個大的經濟體那特別英國已經加入CPTPP所以歐盟的動作當然會影響到各國跟台灣的經貿你剛才講說原來有談到這個事情後來失去動能原因是什麼?原因是因為歐中之間的全面投資協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7701.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7716.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
因為有些議員提倡有關於新疆的人權問題、種族滅絕等等的被中國制裁因此歐洲議會基本上是凍結CAI也因此可能我們研判也影響到跟台灣洽簽的動能 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7718.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7743.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
這個部分我們想我們繼續因為這個是紮紮實實對台灣經貿跟外交有關係的事情我接下來請教國安局那兩位先請回那個副局長我先講題目啦最近有英國國防部所屬的智庫叫RUSI我不知道你有沒有注意到這個消息那這個是英國國防部官方的智庫他的副所長這個Jonathan他特別提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7744.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7773.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
中國最近這半年到9個月左右的時間大量的購買黃金他指的是他央行就是說他們提高他們黃金囤積黃金的準備量那他裡面這個是英國國防支部提到說這個是不是因應台海可能的衝突或者南海可能的衝突那中國呢要將來因應西方國家經濟制裁的一個手段那管局有沒有注意到這個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7775.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7790.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
有那他講的內容你們怎麼評估就是說中國其實長期持有黃金儲備量大概都在全球第6那前年的話是2100多噸到今年增加到2264噸所以他增加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7793.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7793.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7814.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7828.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這個跟國際局勢應該有關係就是有一些動盪的因素存在那一方面也是大陸的經濟的狀況可能不是那麼的理想人民會轉而搶購這個黃金 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7832.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7851.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我在國安局的報告裡面好像沒有看到這一塊反而在英國的國防部的智庫看到這一塊就是說我們一般學總體經濟的當一個國家的政府、央行提高黃金的儲備量其實兩個主要原因一個是避險另外一個是信用大概就這兩個作用避險的話就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7852.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7873.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
在經濟不穩定不確定的時期強化對它經濟的穩定那中國有符合這個特色因為它們現在經濟不穩定很多大型的不動產公司跟金融的放貸公司都出問題第二個呢對國家貨幣求穩定就是避免大幅的往下走貶斯里蘭卡就一個例子它整個貨幣等於變廢紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7874.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7895.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那中國央行提高這個黃金的儲備量看起來是要貨幣維穩也有可能另外一個是分散投資啊因為美金跟黃金是逆指標美金跌黃金就漲嘛所以這個是另外一個可能性那另外有一個就是作為避險當你有可能像俄羅斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7896.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7912.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
他知道他侵略烏克蘭有可能被經濟制裁可能被逐出Swift將來在國際貿易交換的時候黃金的儲備可以增加貿易夥伴的信心所以他會提高他的儲備量俄羅斯大概是排第五名中國現在是排第六名 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7913.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7926.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那國安局有沒有去分析中國提高黃金儲備量的主要原因有沒有可能跟武力犯台有關還是他們國內經濟局勢下滑有關維穩有關你們的判斷是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7927.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7945.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我們確定就是跟他國內的經濟下滑有很密切的關係至於委員﹚跟臺海﹚跟穩定他們大陸的目前的經濟狀況對於臺海的部分我們會密切的注意你們對臺海的評估是沒有﹚還不確定還是﹚我們在深入研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7946.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7968.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
英國這個是屬於國防部的半官方智庫我覺得他們評估了一些鎖本他的分析跟你的不一樣所以我們國安局作為我們國家最高的情報單位我覺得這個是一個很適合延期的題目因為它持續正在發生中那中國的民間的個體經濟大量的買黃金往國外跑那是另外一件事情所以到底是因為他們經濟維穩人民幣維穩 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7970.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7979.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
還是為將來可能發生衝突．被國際制裁來做準備．國安局有責任做好分析好不好是是是 是委員謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請陳培宇委員上台諮詢好 謝謝主席那有請國安局副局長 謝謝請國安局副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8005.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8031.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
謝謝主席 委員長副局長早安我想我們就直接切入今天的命題因為我的時間不夠我想問一下其實為什麼要談今天這兩個命題因為其實在習近平訪歐之後有相關多非常多的資訊尤其是中國方面其實釋出非常多有利於中國的說法那我相信很多國人在看到類似的消息的時候可能也會回過來想那台灣跟歐洲的關係又是什麼所以我們今天先來討論第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8033.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8033.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
好,謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8062.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8091.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我想的確是我們的觀察那的確有越來越多的東歐國家對中國的不滿主要就是一些經濟上的因素還有地區安全的因素這都會制約他跟歐洲的一些關係進展包括他們這些像電動車、電池這些大量的出口那用比較低的價格到歐洲去會影響到他們的工作權以及他們的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8092.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8107.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這些都會讓這些東歐國家會產生一些疑慮這些都是可能直接就影響到他們的關係對,不過我剛剛已經說了就是我們大家在立法院討論這些事情或者是關心國家大事、國際大事的人可能會關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8108.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8126.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
可是如果在民間他們所流放出去的訊息大家看到是很多假訊息就是看起來習近平跟這個法國總統握手很開心啊甚至還有所謂的漂亮的夫人外交我覺得我們國安局或者是外交部在這個事情上相關的私訊澄清要如何用更有效率的方法讓國人清楚的明白相關的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8129.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8131.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
所以你們會有什麼相關的作為或措施嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8152.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8157.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
對,因為我覺得這個說明相當相當的重要,怎麼說呢?因為當我們在了解中國跟這些歐洲國家的關係,其實大家很好奇哪些歐洲國家到底對中國是友善的,而友善的原因又是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8173.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8199.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那不友善又有哪些國家那不友善的原因又是什麼如同剛剛副局長您說的有這個電動車電池的問題甚至我們在看到他出訪歐洲之後匈牙利的在野黨他們也提出相關的建議他們說我們如果對中國的投資照單全收相關的投資跟政策會影響到匈牙利本國的民主自由價值同時也會分裂整個歐盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8199.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8214.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
向相關的論述我們怎麼讓更多人清楚的明白這件事情對於台灣民主自由的影響我相信如同剛剛您所說的你們會把相關資訊收集然後委由主管機關做更多的對民眾的說明對嗎是的好那謝謝您好那下一個我們來看下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8216.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8242.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那下一個要問的是其實在訪歐之後習近平總統習近平他在2016年也曾經造訪捷克當時捷克總統他對中國相對是友善不過他現在已經卸任了那現在的總統捷克總統彼得總統他其實已經對外說他說中國並不是一個友好的國家所以我想要請問國安局是不是我們可以解讀成我們在台灣的我們可不可以解讀成 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8243.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8269.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
中國像戰狼一般的不友善不民主的外交政策確實也讓台灣還有歐洲國家的互動算是有一些相對友善的互動往前走我們可以這樣解讀嗎?可以那如果在這個解讀的情況下日前某一位在野黨委員他做了一個公害泄密的動作我相信你們也很清楚那後續這樣的事情假設在發生或者是後續所產生的效應你們這邊怎麼看? |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8273.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8292.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們台灣的自由民主是最好的武器我們會聯繫跟我們理念相同的國家我們加強我們的互相的交流那我們可以讓更多的國家能夠理解我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8292.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8320.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
但我時間有限我想我就跟提醒國安局自由民主確實是我們非常非常好的武器也是我這個世代非常珍珍覺得非常珍貴跟重視的價值我也希望它可以流傳到我的小孩下一代甚至在更下下一代可是是不是有人也就拿這個自由民主作為一種工具然後散發很多令人混亂的假訊息也好或者很多令人感覺到不舒服的訊息也好我想這都是國安或者是外交單位我們都需要積極保持重視的對嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8321.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8323.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
主席好,有請國安局副局長請國安局副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8354.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8371.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
謝謝主席委員長副局長早歐洲在德國前總理梅克爾卸任之後現任的法國總統馬克宏對於主導歐洲秩序比德國和現任的總理肖茲更加積極馬克宏總統為了不讓俄羅斯在俄烏戰爭獲勝他認為應該要保持跟中國的關係因為俄羅斯已經逐漸適應西方施加的經濟制裁中國作為俄羅斯的戰略夥伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8383.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8396.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那我想請問一下副局長根據你掌握的資訊你認為法國未來如果想要說服中國減少對俄羅斯的支持總是需要拿一些籌碼交換嘛對吧如果不涉及機密可以方便在這邊簡短說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8405.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8417.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
法國跟中國的經貿關係還是很密切,中國可能在這方面會不會給予法國一些優惠或者是合作的機會? |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8423.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8426.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
今天專案的報告主題是會如何影響台灣的國家安全我們現在我國有六艘康定級的巡防艦大家平常聽說的法國拉法葉軍艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8446.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8460.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
正在陸續的進行性能的提升而這個升級案就是跟法國合作的那我們都知道當年台灣為了購買這批拉法葉軍艦進來非常的不容易因為涉及到台灣、法國、中國的三國 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8461.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8482.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
的高層的世紀的國際新聞當年中國知道臺法的軍艦交易之後就開始對法國施予很大的政治的壓力導致這6艘軍艦差一點就買不了但是最後政治的妥協是傳進來但是上面都沒有任何的武裝甚至拉法葉軍艦本身就很多杏仁豬園也都被法國洩漏給中共了 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8483.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8500.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
當然現在情況是時空背景可能有所不同但很難讓人不然聯想到類似的情況會不會再次發生請問副局長你認為中國這次利用這種領導人出訪影響我國康定級的升級案的機會有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8502.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8524.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我們不排除就是中共還是會利用各種機會來干擾歐洲國家友台行動跟台化台歐的關係那不過我據我們的瞭解這一個性能提升案仍然持續在推動不過我們還是要非常的小心中共會利用機會來干擾我們之間的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8527.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8540.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我想提醒一下副局長因為你們研究情報的其實你們都知道法國主要的是軍工企業跟政府部門其實都有很深的連結其實表示很容易就受到政府的決策影響我國這六艘康定級的軍艦升級案總預算高達台幣432億 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8547.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8551.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
再加上中國憑以基建擾台為了考驗我國的國軍的後勤能力113年2月16號國防部絕標的公告裡面我們已經跟法國簽署完成艦艇戰系載台零附件總金額有24億元等於六艘抗敵級的軍艦升級案總金額就已經超過台幣456億元了 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8572.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8596.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
當然目標就是為了有效的維持海軍的拉法葉艦戰力以應對中國的威脅但也別忘了康定級是我國海軍非常重要的反潛戰力所以還是請國安局要持續的關注千萬不要讓外力干擾到國防艦艇升級案的成果好嗎?是另外還有康定級的軍艦外我們還有幻象2000的戰鬥機是不是也是跟法國買的呢?是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8601.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8618.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
其實之前有一段很長的時間拉法葉的軍艦案導致台法的關係其實不是很好所以後來幻象戰機妥善率其實也不是很好所以最近台法關係改善之後有軍事的專家指出其實我們從空軍半年來四波的採購動作來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8620.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8639.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
其中幾乎都是法國採購相關維修零附件所以這些與法國的軍事交流也請國安局一定要特別的注意還密切的注意臺灣會不會被當作法國跟中國的交易的棋子讓臺灣國家安全被影響到這可能要特別的注意,可以嗎?可以,是 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8643.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8668.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
下一個問題下個禮拜520就是新就任總統即將交接的重要日子同時也是兩岸關係的一個重要的節點那本席看一下國內研究兩岸關係的學者的論點他們普遍認為從3月中共兩會結束到520總統就職的這段期間是觀察中共對台灣下一任總統釋放政治訊息的重要的時間但是這段時間兩岸的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8670.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8689.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
互動實在太令人擔心了,自從2月份金門漁船翻船事件到現在兩岸都沒有達成共識,然後本席也發現中國是以加強海上執法巡查來當藉口,開始逼近金門馬祖的淨線水域,到現在頻率跟船隻都是一直在上升。 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8690.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8699.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
而且甚至還到上個禮拜還出現了中國的公務船跟海警船編隊直接闖入我國的金門淨線水域那北溪認為北京是在利用這個機會跟我們打法律戰想要擴大管轄權那想請教副局長北溪擔心的是如果我們沒有辦法有效的反制這樣中國船隻在金門馬祖淨線水域進出成為常態那這樣的量變會不會累積變成我們失去有效管轄權的質變呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8720.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8744.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我想我們國軍及海巡的海巡署我們的弟兄都是非常的嚴正的在執法我們也在做防禦的一個動作我想大家都沒有鬆懈我們也都是很認真的在執法我們中共從來沒有放棄以武力犯台的這個選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8745.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8754.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那也不斷地用軍事跟灰色地帶來施壓我們一定會一起收集共軍的這些異常的動態來機先應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8757.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8758.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
請田次長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8786.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8815.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
次長早那台灣目前所屬的外部環境似乎是比以前更加嚴峻那次長認為呢確實從整個地緣政治來看我們確實是受到很強大的壓力但是從內部來看其實我們團結的力量也相對的大那麼如果說從國際間尤其在東歐歐盟方面他們關切台灣的力道 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8816.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8829.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
跟提到臺海安全穩定的次數等等我覺得已經超過以往非常多就是說臺灣整個的價值來講已經受到全世界的關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8830.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8850.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好那其實最主要的影響應該是台灣國家安全應該是美中台三角的關係短期上由美國大選因素長期上美中激烈戰略競爭的態勢已經非常的明確了所以其實對台灣而言是沒有最嚴峻只有更嚴峻的外部環境在那麼嚴峻的情況下那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8852.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8858.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
請問一下次長你認為台灣是不是要有一個具有豐富外交實務經驗的人來擔任外交部長呢?來領導外交部呢?像本席就覺得田次長你那麼優秀又那麼資深其實你蠻適合當外交部長的你是不是有這個意願呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8872.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8886.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我覺得我現在扮演的角色我很滿意但是我覺得能力還不夠擔當大任我希望能夠在我所學能夠相助新的外交部長這是我的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8887.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8899.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
因為現在的外交部長現在外界就很多傳言民進黨派系的平衡的結果像我覺得來我們來現在來看一下檢視林佳龍是不是合擔任外交部長的職位然後我現在這邊整理出來從2000年到現在歷屆的外交部長上 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8905.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8907.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
上任前相關的社外工作經驗我們可以發現其實近年來的外交部長幾乎都是職業外交官還有相關外交專業的資深的學者出身但問題是林佳龍在接任外交部長前 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8920.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8941.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
社外事務經驗就很少甚至沒有駐外的經驗而且勉強說社外事務的經驗或許就是只有擔任過外交部的無任所大使那請問一下次長請問你會不會擔心國際環境那麼險峻情況下把外交部交給一個社外經驗那麼少的繼任者呢請次長你可以說出你的心中的真心話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8943.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8961.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我們林部長做過台中市的市長我了解在台中市做市長的時候就推動過很多城市外交成果也非常之好所以我認為他對外交有他獨特的一個想法跟做法我是高度的讚賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8963.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8981.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
好那最後我還是希望外交部能夠在520交接的時候趕快協助林佳龍然後無縫接軌的學習適應的時間因為現在還是時間越短越好因為我們敵人是不等人的啦甚至無孔不入希望能夠這樣去協助他可以嗎?謝謝謝謝接下來請賴世保委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8998.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9009.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
有請國安局的徐副局長以及田中光次長兩位一起請徐副局長還有田次長我請教兩位長官這個國安會跟兩位的單位跟外交部、國安局什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9025.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9026.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
國安局先講國安會是我們的指導的上級是你上級單位嘛請教外交部是不是你上級單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9037.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9055.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
國安會是不是外交部的上級單位?我們依這個政府的組織法來說外交部的是屬於總統的職權當然當然但是總統旁邊有個幕僚單位啊國安會是提供總統對於國家安全的一些政策的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9057.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9077.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
所以對國安會秘書長這個國安會沒辦法管到你們不會吧他通過總統就一樣可以指揮你們我沒有這個意思說他管不到我們我這按照組織法是這樣子我們會相當尊重以及遵循國安會的指導那國安會有沒有常常跟你們有文書的往來 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9079.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9091.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
有沒有 外交部 有 有嘛 有 有 直接發文給你嘛 有有 我們也有發文報告 對不對那這下發文如果下一次發文叫拎杯這樣 啊 這個吳釗燮啊 吳釗燮在網路平台一直說拎杯啊 你們沒有去看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9103.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9109.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
欸!不是拎杯好友,他叫你拎杯啊!要站到底啊!要站徐曉鑫站到底啊!這樣的國安委秘書長以後發文給你寫拎杯!那個...報告...報告委員,有建築文字嗎?媒體一大堆怎麼沒有呢?阿你都不理看不準!中國史...公文書沒有看到啊!是嘛!公文沒有,我講,公文沒有!他的在網路平台這樣寫啦!來來來,請教副局長! |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9133.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9134.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
他以後是你的長官阿是他講林北你覺得怎麼樣呢報告委員好他講他在網路平台裡面講林北站到底剛好我是讀法律的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9150.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9162.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
每個文字根據不同的人不同的時間他要表達的內容可能評價上都不是很一致所以林北是不是出話我問你是不是出話 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9164.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9172.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
有時候會是出話我問你是不是出話所以我跟委員報告單就這個字來評斷他是不是出話在法院的實務見解不會這麼認定現在有很多包括我可能太不禮貌了有時候什麼他媽的是口頭禪 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9184.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9202.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
法官也會認為說這個不是有刻意的侮辱人的意思所以不同的這個同樣的文字在不同的場合講出來的內容不能一次就單一句話說是不是粗話我想這樣子可能在我們法院這邊所以吳釗燮講林培你可以接受我是沒有看到全文所以我很難評斷阿你媒體讀一下就有啦媒體記者一堆在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9213.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9229.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
他就臨杯 戰鬥敵 喔實在是 看得容易啊以前只要有人講這話你就講 喔爆出口 爆出話 臨杯是這樣這個假派 他們大小咧 這麼大的一個官 要接國安委秘書長居然爆出了出口 敢不敢不 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9238.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9243.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
可是你長官當然你不敢講話啊 對不對等一下你講話人家委員說你要篡位是不是來 次長講我看你是 這個 這個知書大理啊是不是你覺得講林北豪嗎 請問你次長不敢評估長官的話是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9263.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9281.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
當然這是長官的話我們不會批評但是我們還是要看他在什麼場合講的他公開場合他如果私底下就算了你說私底下、私底下、口頭禪怎麼樣就算了對不對他很大這林北公開場合他網路平台這樣講勒很不好啦應該不是在政府機構的一些場域講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9292.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9307.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
他在Threaded平台裡面講的話非常不好啦這個東西然後他帶領國安會整個國安會我就不知道以後你們這個單位怎麼跟他搭配國安會現在看到的吳釗燮到底的戰狼是不是現在來講我請問次長啊520之前有沒有可能再被斷交原來部長講的最可能兩個國家一個在海地一個在瓜地馬拉可不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9322.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9346.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
跟委員報告危險不危險好像部長沒有提到兩個國家的名字他是說有兩個國家有危機那外面猜測是這個外面猜測我不必言之會但是短期之內應該沒有這個憂慮長期我們會非常非常關注那個副局長520之前或者之後短時間520的5月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9349.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9356.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
外交方面有沒有被斷交的危機?有沒有?我們尊重外交部的說法你們掌握到的情勢有沒有?要講話是不是?我們掌握的情勢目前還沒有這樣的跡象 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9364.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9377.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
現在是不是再請外交部請交外交部我們正式幫交國不追求了我們要追求一個叫換我金高很會用詞彙叫做價值外交什麼叫價值外交來來來 市長講一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9383.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9405.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
價值外交就是台灣現在所擁有全世界所尊重的一個價值民主、自由、人權我們的如果那個當然價值外交文化外交什麼外交都可以但是最重要的要邦交國啊幫外交部成立幹什麼我們一個國家就是要政治的邦交國越多越好越多人承認我們越好而且退縮了因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9408.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9414.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
外交不斷地 外交國不斷地 減少了 所以換一個名詞說我駕駛外交 追求 台灣追求的民主自由人權 全世界來支持我們這個叫 歐陵世度啦 你知道嗎就自己外交的 外交部的成績不好 所以只好轉這樣子吳釗燮任內斷交了這麼多國 他還好意思繼續當部長還要做國安會秘書長 還要講林北 我們現在是佛洛克啦 不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9437.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9442.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
站在政黨政治的立場、政黨競爭的立場我們歡迎吳釗燮繼續當官 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9450.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9466.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在﹖請鄭天才委員、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在﹖請王宏威、王宏威、王宏威委員不在﹖請鄭正前、鄭正前、鄭正前委員不在﹖請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在﹖請張其凱、張其凱、張其凱委員不在﹖請邱志偉委員上臺質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9482.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9499.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
可惜了可惜了寶貴的五分鐘國安委員會質詢在討論林北到底是不是一個髒話可惜啊可惜啊來謝謝趙偉謝謝那個外交部田市長歐洲師黃師長請徐副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9503.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9514.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
委員長我先問一下那個立法院的選情Moseda跟Simonite後來最新的狀況是怎麼樣好像是Moseda是第一輪大概40幾%46、47報告委員您可不可以靠近一下麥克風我們聽不太清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9530.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9559.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
現任總理跟現任總統現在現任總統是Moseda他好像是目前第一輪是領先嘛對不對對那會不會超過50%不會不會那就第二輪第二輪就是52626號所以526第二輪就是得票率前第一輪得票率前兩位就是現任總統跟總理嘛那你們預估啊因為現任的大使是剛過去那黃大使黃市長你最清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9560.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9585.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
如果進入第二輪是不是現任總統他這個當選機率比較大一點一般的預測跟這個政治觀察家他之前所發表的言論會不會影響到臺裔的關係就是說他會不會這個在他新當選之後這個把臺灣跟立臺灣的代表處做降級或者把臺灣改成臺北有沒有這種可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9586.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9613.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
在競選期間他有做過這樣的發言但是在昨天12號的時候記者再問他同樣的問題他是說他會持續跟台灣發展文化跟經貿的深化這不衝突啊所以這不衝突啊我說他跟台灣降級成台北跟台灣這個持續深化文化經貿關係是不衝突的我問一下那個黃市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9615.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9641.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那你在立法院多久?三年左右所以這兩位Moseda跟Simonotti都是你的朋友對不對?那你預估呢?以過去你的努力我們都肯定你不僅涉處然後這個牌理關係在實質上的互動也非常密切國會的交流也非常密切那你預估他如果又是Moseda當選 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9643.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9655.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
他會不會真的去做：把臺力關係降級：把臺灣趕成臺北這是一個假設性的問題立陶宛他是內閣制的國家我們當初設出的時候應該是半總統制吧 國防外交應該是屬於總統職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9665.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9692.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
他依據憲法他可以比如說任命相關的人但是事實上國防外交的決策我不希望把台灣改成台北但是你要持續努力你知道有這個問題可能會發生但是你應該責成那個次長應該責成現任的代表現任的大使趕快去把這個關係能夠更穩固不會因為他新連任之後改變對台灣的這個代表處的這個名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9695.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9718.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那當然中國的壓力也是很大因為我看國安局跟這個外交部的報告一樣是做評估那外交部的評估是稍微比較正面你的評估第一點是歐盟逐漸凸顯歐中關係是對手的論述第二點就是說法國展現對歐盟對中國的一致立場對不對這是你們評估嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9720.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9741.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
歐盟當然也包括匈牙利那國安局的評估呢歐盟個別國家包括匈牙利塞爾維亞現在不是嘛法國當然也是歐盟個別國家將平衡發展對中關係到底歐盟對這個中國關係有沒有一致還是未來未來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9744.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9758.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
繼續深化一致還是會朝向這個經貿跟這個政治把它分開變成說這個歐盟對中政策還有有分裂性或者議題的這個差別性這個誰來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9759.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9777.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那個徐副局長報告委員我想議題他們持續會有差異性但是個別國家為了經貿的理由他可能會跟中共有一些接觸我想這是我們要注意的地方但是基本上剛才講到那幾個差異點是存在的所以說個別國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9781.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9785.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
每個國家跟中共多少少都有一些經貿往來,這個都是我們在持續觀察的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9808.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9835.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那我們這個歐盟國家裡面親中立場比較明確的如果你不方便回答你是要再跟我講你說親中立場比較明確歐盟裡面我是覺得有些親中立場明確有些是比較模糊有些是反對所以這些你就是要把這個等級劃分出來然後要請外交部或相關部會去針對這個比較親中的國家我們加強對他們外交作為是 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9836.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9839.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
另外一個小議題這個這個因為我高鐵趕不上了就繼續問這個境外這個再一分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9852.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9881.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
這個我的臉書常常因為都是我的幕僚在幫我管理臉書所以我臉書常常被冒用被冒用太多了已經大概五六次了我就請警察局他就叫我去下架有沒有掌握這個特定人士包括我們有可能接觸到國家機密或者我們有接觸到政策、立法有沒有可能這些被假冒的來源國是來自於中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9882.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9910.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我們有很多數的個案請國安團隊去追查最後都是在境外境外當然有沒有包括中國他還有一些跳板所以也有港澳也有在外國新加坡在中國或者港澳你要特別注意另外一個你再看一下這個他直接問我說啊這個他們是歐亞什麼歐亞研究中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9911.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9917.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
他說這個要請我這個寫文章這個要跟我合作我想這個是誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9922.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9943.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
時間的關係,簡單說明,不然就到委員辦公室說明好不好我們這部分有掌握有掌握齁,你們聽過這個歐亞發展研究中心,還是我是個案還是有好幾個人有同樣的這個問題之前就有掌握到這一個,等於是這個組織所以他就利用這些來,比方說你幫他寫個文章,他就拿你的文章去當樣子謝謝,時間的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9954.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9960.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
羅民財委員 羅民財 羅民財委員不在 請洪森漢委員上台質詢請回答吳田次長請田次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9981.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9981.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9995.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10015.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那在520這個交接的時刻其實我們確實要非常感謝外交部過去包括領務局其實過去的努力讓其實現在台灣的護照擁有170個國家的免簽包括落地證、電子簽證這些待遇其實都相比於中國是非常非常多的倍數 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10016.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10044.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那在護照的辦理上其實人別的辨識其實非常的重要那所以我們現在看到幾個狀況外交部在尤其是護照辦理上面的人別辨識的時候當然我們有時候不希望太鬆也不希望太密這個太密如果弄到這個警報一直響或是讓大家困擾也很奇怪最近我們收到一個案件我想跟外交部這邊來請教那這單其實並不是針對個案那我也不是要苛責第一線的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10046.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10064.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
現在我們其實看到有一隊他其實是依照這個釋制748號施行法也就是我們一般在說的婚姻平權的法案來締結關係的同性伴侶A女士跟B女士那發生一個狀況他們帶小朋友去辦護照但現在的狀況是請看這頭影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10067.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10090.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
這小朋友的A這個A女士是小朋友的生母B女士其實是小朋友的養母因為其實我們也過了這個相關他們有這個收養的關係但很奇怪這禮物局的承辦人刷了生母就是A女士的身份證系統出現紅字但這個改刷B女士的身份證紅字卻又消失了這個部長、次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10094.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10094.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
技術上的問題我想請林務局局長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10119.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10143.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
謝謝委員 這個問題我有去做了解那基本上我們的就是我們第一線櫃檯的同仁他在處理這個護照的問題他會有一個標準作業的程序那他使用的這個電腦系統會有所謂的防呆機制防呆機制他裡面會就是說如果這個案子需要注意哪一些的他會跳出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10144.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10161.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那這裡面跳出來是有譬如說包括監護權、一些提醒,裡面是沒有就同性婚姻這部分會有任何的提醒所以這個第一線人員的處理可能有造成這個當事人或許有誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10163.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10179.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
局長我想我就做一個很直接的要求包括我們在法規或機制上面有沒有在這個同婚的法案通過以後做進一步的去做調適那符合其實可能各種可能會發生的情境這部分可能要請聯護局這邊再做一次檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10181.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10208.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
第二是說包括你剛才講到我們第一線人員的訓練或相關的管理這事情有沒有可能其實大家可以把這事情做得更周全一點這部分那避免我們看到現在一般的人去申請護照的時候會遇到這樣子的困擾這部分我就請領務局來一個月的時間做一個比較清楚的檢討好不好這應該沒有問題是謝謝委員那接下來我要是要請教田次長的事情是這幾天我們看到在黨齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10210.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10235.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那針對上個禮拜大家討論到這個洩密的事件我週末看到一個非常讓人擔心的狀況說災黨接下來可能想要透過在委員會裡面這個輪番的質詢接力棒式的質詢希望來改變或者是希望來給外交部壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10238.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10248.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那給外交部壓力是要來請外部要改變你們在很多法律行動上面的選擇次長你們會被這樣的做法施壓嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10250.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10267.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
跟委員報告我覺得我們會選擇法律跟我們的專業做出最佳的判斷所以你們在在這個事件上面這當然是大家非常非常關注的事件上面你們做出你們的選擇的依據會是基於法律是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10269.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10270.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
跟國家的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10299.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10325.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
該要堅持的法律底線我認為我們的行政部門必須堅持如果連法律底線行政部門都無法堅持那未來可能大家會非常大的質疑我們的行政部門各種的施政各種的執行它的依據是什麼它的標準是什麼它的規則是什麼它的秩序是什麼所以我要請外交部這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10327.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10351.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我認為接下來在這個禮拜裡面這個問題這個議題還會被持續的討論也許會有很多的挑戰但我同意剛剛次長說我們必須依據法律來作為我們外交部在這個事件上面我們的判斷跟我們的選擇這部分我也希望次長把這樣的意見給帶回到部內這是一個法律問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10353.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10377.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
這是一個國安問題這不是一個朝野的問題這不是一個朝野政治的問題我希望我們可以把這個議題跟這個問題的本質我覺得我們要把握清楚在這個基礎之上來應對各方可能會提出的挑戰我覺得這是最重要的事情我的今天的質詢在最後我這部分還是想提醒次長這件事情謝謝好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10383.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10394.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本次會議由王洪威委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料則亦請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10407.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10414.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
在今天是國安跟外交的兩個單位這攸關台灣我們就是我們所有現在不管是國家的利益也好或者整體的國家安全也好尤其在520的前後我相信大家都應該要可以更謹慎一點那在這裡還是剛剛大家有提到國家利益跟國家安全為重所以我們也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10437.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10438.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
本日會議到此結束 |