| IVOD_ID |
15892 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15892 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-08T08:31:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-08T10:36:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:04:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc35675eb71f9bc6ae0cc1067dc387cc1f3be8d109af184be427250d35a17ab1fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查
（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。
二、繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。
三、繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:46 - 10:36:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1764.227 |
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1785.52 |
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報告委員會初席委員9人已足法定人數,請主席宣布派會。現在開會,進行報告事項,宣讀上次會議議事錄。立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議議事錄,時間中華民國113年5月6日星期一上午9時至10時25分,地點本院紅樓302會議室,初席委員陳委員俊宇等13人, |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1790.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1811.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
閱習委員委員寬恆等9人列席官員立法院秘書長周萬來等人主席中召集委員嘉賓報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定。討論事項繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》等5案。決議以上個案均另定期繼續審查。經表決通過散會動議。宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1817.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1837.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
請問各位,上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?沒有,都沒有嗎?沒有的話,議事錄確定。接下來介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員,先介紹在場委員,首先介紹副總召及介紹羅委員志強。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1839.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1861.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
厲委員施銘、謝委員龍介以及吳釗偉、鍾憲。在這邊有莊委員蕾雄、陳委員冠宇。那現在介紹應邀列席官員。首先介紹立法院秘書長周萬來。歡迎您。 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1864.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1867.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
其餘未及介紹的列席代表,請參與名單不再逐一介紹,並列入公報記錄。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1871.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1894.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
本次議程討論事項繼續審查國會改革法案有關立法委員行為法、立法院議事規則及立法院職權行使法、民進黨黨團及各提案委員擬具之部分條文修正草案,所列議案之提案說明、機關報告及詢答,願與本會期第15次、第17次及第19次會議分別進行完畢,並將進行大體討論,願與本會會議繼續審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1901.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1921.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好,現在繼續進行討論事項並逐案進行處理。討論事項第一案,繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》等三案。那我們直接進行,我們本案繼續進行大體討論,大體討論後再進行逐條審查。那麼請在場委員先就大體討論表示意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1932.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1956.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
大體討論要不要先,要不要先發言。好,那我們先進行大體討論齁。有沒有委員。呃,程序發言。好,程序發言,請那個羅委員自講程序發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1960.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1981.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
呃,陳律法委員要登記嗎?可以,大體討論開始登記。好,那大體討論開始登記。沒有沒有,陳律法委員請。沒有,沒有,陳律法委員沒有登記。時間3分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1988.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2014.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
以彼之道還私彼身。我覺得在國會有一樣東西是我很堅持的就是公平對等也就是說今天當國民黨提出的國會法案民進黨所提出來的標準抱歉如果沒有比照在民進黨版本之上本席無法接受所以既然國民黨的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2016.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2038.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
民進黨要求加開公聽會而吳宗憲召委他也嚴審國會改革法案然後呢 鍾嘉賓委員開了兩場公聽會吳宗憲委員開了一場專報一場公聽會國民黨的國會改革法案被充分的社會大眾檢視然後接下來我們才進到逐條審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2040.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2068.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我要再次強調這不是羅志強標準這不是國民黨標準這是民進黨標準既然民進黨設定了國會法案必須有公聽會充分社會討論之後才能夠進行逐條的討論跟審查那抱歉今天在這邊本席在這邊也是堅持跟呼籲民進黨的版本不用怕社會大眾檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2069.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2087.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
先開一場專報三場公聽會之後然後再來審查就像國民黨的這個國會改革版本民進黨也要求開公聽會找了像林志傑這些民進黨的一些比較友善的學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2088.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2113.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
然後呢對國民黨的版本有非常非常嚴格的檢視。那為什麼這個過程就不能在民進黨版的國會法案當中來去進行跟履行呢?啊就要進到我們國會我們司法委員會直接透過司法委員會在社會大眾沒有公聽會沒有專報充分了解之下就吵吵的討論吵吵的通過呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2114.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2132.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以在這邊針對今天我們民進黨的召委排審的所謂的幾個國會法案我在這邊的呼籲很簡單我請我們的召委啊告訴大家啦今天就不用審了啦先開完三場公聽會跟一場專門報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2134.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2149.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
社會大眾有共同的瞭解對民進黨的法案都很熟悉該有的意見該有的批評不要舉個最簡單例子為什麼民進黨的國會改革的法案版本裡面要特別把說謊官員的處罰拿掉呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2151.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2178.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
難道民進黨的國會改革就是鼓勵官員說謊呢?這件事情要讓社會大眾、讓學者、專家來公平啊!也許你們很有意見啊!官員說謊權是神聖、不可侵犯啊!拿出來讓大家來討論嘛!所以今天我的要求跟主張很簡單啦!如果說民進黨不排公聽會、不排專報你要進到司法委員會我要捍衛民進黨當時的一個主張的尊嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2179.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2181.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
也就繼續散會了啦 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2185.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2211.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這邊再次的跟羅委員說明事實上羅委員一再的扭曲本席所召開的兩場公聽會的內容事實上連羅委員你本身就你剛剛所提到的事情在4月11號的時候當天林志傑公聽會的學者代表也就跟您當面確認過了我想有興趣您可以再回去回顧一下那一天的會議的實況錄影 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2213.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2229.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那再次強調的4月10號、4月11號有本席排定的兩場公聽會所討論的含色範圍就是包含國會職權的行使跟國會的議事規則和立法委員的行為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2230.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2250.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那麼這些相關的內容都體現在本席所律定的提綱當中而應邀來出席的與會的學者專家學者也充分的拿到了目前各位委員手上所看到的版本所以那兩場公聽會所討論的所有國會改革方案已經含設了包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2251.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2272.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2272.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2292.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
四月十號、四月十一號本席所排定的兩場公聽會並沒有就國民黨以外的版本進行公聽會的學者專家的意見諮詢。這一點還是要再三再三的說明。有興趣的委員或者是朋友可以去看一看四月十號、四月十一號 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2293.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2322.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
來﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2322.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2347.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席各位委員羅志祥每次講話都不針對主題不亂挑釁只有那一套邏輯攻擊邏輯我上禮拜就跟你講過前幾天你喔口才變節反應也很快當然是你不要全部用到fight的方面去你要用到正途你是年輕人還有未來的人所以講話不要亂講一通當然大家在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2351.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2370.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
他們有官員要處罰這個說謊官員,請問今天審查什麼法?立法委員行為法,實在耶穌立法人的行為,你再扯到什麼要處罰官員?你牛頭不要對馬腳,你講的不是在這裡,今天請看今天審什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2372.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2395.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
立法委員行為,立法委員行為要怎麼規範約束嗎?很簡單啦,就有關於利益衝突,不是黃昌一直講要加強利益衝突的規範嗎?法規範嗎?那在這裡就是說所有可能,他立法委員有利益衝突的關係人先羅列清楚哪些是關係人嘛,哪些是必須被 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2397.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2406.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
閱讀以及起訴對象這要講清楚說這跟審判官員有什麼關係。第二個綠充的範圍是什麼要講清楚嘛。第三密會的時候要怎麼好規範嘛。所以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2414.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2430.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你看一下今天這中文很簡單,你看一下秦總裁的功績嘛,有同樣的功績每天講那個話,然後播給你們的選民直播播給你們選民看,選民你以為選民在資訊路上唱會差這麼多嗎?老人家說你寫什麼消費?啊就是今天行為法有什麼懲罰關聯? |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2436.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2459.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
行為法是要懲罰議員以及助理啦,要搞什麼對象。所以今天我們要談清楚,怎麼沒有公聽會,假如不是我們堅持要開公聽會的話,你們只要開半天,一次半天公聽會啊。吳宗憲委員在這裡啊。後來,而且沒有涵蓋韓社要所有你們不會改革的版本。所以鍾家斌委員才又開了兩次公聽會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2461.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2487.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
包括今天的都含澀進去,其實今天很簡單嘛,如果關於立法委員而已嘛。所以今天我們要談清楚,不然喔,稍微我不會說,然後講錯一直撲一撲,對你將來的政治發展能夠在健全上也有損害。坦白講,我這裡是非常承信你未來應該是要把自己做研究人,一個對國家社會有用的人嘛。所以公務員委員會已經含澀了,已經擺明夠了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2490.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2510.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那今天假如今天這個行為法,我們先進入主條,然後出委員會。出委員會以後,民進黨以後還有意見,你再看公聽會開幾場,大家都沒有意見啊。畢竟三度以前,表決前大家又可以再來開公聽會都可以啊。所以希望針對問題回答問題好不好。好謝謝,那麼有請吳委員、施堯。程序發言時間3分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2521.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2521.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
謝謝主席。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2551.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2575.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我們要繼續一事無成嗎?我們要繼續重蹈覆轍嗎?我們要繼續再一次的呈現在國人面前立法委員坐在會議室然後失位速參、薪水小偷、不實質審查阻卻了委員會中心主義嗎?我們真的不能繼續再空耗下去了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2576.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2592.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以幾點回應第一點有關於今天排審的民進黨版的立法委員行為法議事規則民進黨版都有我們的版本個別委員有范雲委員的版本及賴瑞隆委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2593.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2597.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
今天要處理的只有16個條文。16個條文沒有那麼複雜。而且16個條文都已經含括在4月10號、4月11號兩場公聽會的主題。都已經在公聽會有藉由學者專家一起來討論過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2615.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2630.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以羅志強委員一直在說還要再開公聽會那請問4月10號4月11號的公聽會如果我沒有記錯您也有來登記發言啊你也是很認真有來參加公聽會啊所以您當然很清楚4月10號跟11號的兩場公聽會就已經具體針對今天的兩個法案進行過公共的對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2636.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2658.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以我們不要再重蹈覆轍今天只有16個條文兩個法案內容非常的明確它不複雜它聚焦於三大部分第一部分就是反性騷的條款MeToo的條款再清楚也不過了國人的理解也非常的明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2659.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2664.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第二個重點在於秘密會議我們如何規範立法委員列席人員還有行政官員如果參與國會的秘密會議他如何要做好洩密的防範這是一致性的規範不是指規範在野黨的委員這是規範全體113個立法委員所以這沒有針對性 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2683.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2701.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以我們不能再發生有立委任意的去泄密的這種行為就這個條文議事規則的修正社會的理解也非常的充分完全所以我們第三個重點今天討論的就是立法委員行為法裡面要不要針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2703.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2707.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
讓社會看到國會的改革是真正的自我嚴格要求自我來履行利益迴避然後做到全責相符有權就要有責的國會改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2730.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2744.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以今天的三個主題都非常的清楚而明確。我相信社會對於MeToo條款絕對支持。我相信社會對於國會一再的發生泄密的事件也認為要修法強化內規來予以彌補。 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2746.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2749.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第三（我相信社會也絕對支持要讓立法院的利益迴避能夠跟上時代與時俱進嚴謹的自我來要求所以三個主題一點都不複雜只有16個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2762.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2776.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他不需要在公聽會他不需要在空轉他也不需要在凝聚社會共識他的條文真的非常的清楚明瞭我相信以在野黨的幾位委員你們的高智商你們的專業度理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2779.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2801.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2801.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2803.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝吳委員思瑤接下來請林委員思銘成語發言時間3分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2831.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2842.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
謝謝主席我想我們今天召委在排這個禮拜一以及今天原本排定的職權行使法我想我們都春分中中 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2843.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2867.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我想我們對於這個不管是立法委員行為法以及我們的議事規則相關的規定那這幾個法案我想大概大家也充分的有表達意見那我個人的看法我認為羅志強委員一直要求要召開公聽會我想這個絕對是非常合理而且有他的一個意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2869.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2884.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
因為這個行為法所牽涉的範疇非常的廣泛,尤其他有很多違憲的一個一議的一個條文。比如說我們立法委員議員處理到中港澳必須接受審查, |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2885.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2911.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個有非常重大的一個違憲爭議尤其對於我們憲法保障我們人民的遷徙自由這個有很大的一個被解讀為違憲的一個疑義我想現在是什麼時代啊到一個國家就會洩密現在是通訊資通訊發達的一個時代要洩密不是一定要去那個國家科技這麼發達一通電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2914.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2917.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
一個簡訊一個LINE一個微信 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2918.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2946.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就可以,這個如你們想要,你們想要立法的一個目的說要防止立法委員什麼議員助理去到那個國家會有洩密的一個疑慮啊。所以這個牽涉到違憲爭議的一個條文是不是要透過我們的公聽會讓專家學者來充分的表達他們的看法跟意見作為我們修法的參考,我認為這絕對有它的必要性嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2947.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2973.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以我們才會一再的要求針對民進黨的版本不管是今天我們要審的立法委員行為法或者議事規則等相關的規定還有立法委員的職權行使法民進黨的版本你們就不要去畏懼害怕來召開公聽會讓我們的專家學者對民進黨的版本提出他們專業的一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2974.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2991.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我想這個對我們的立法委員的修法都是非常有參考意義跟價值的至於范雲委員的性平專法這個我們當然我們也是很尊重我們也是對這個您性平的修法表示肯定但是就是在立法技術上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2991.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3013.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
是不是我們還要在我們的行為法裡面去疊床架屋去再把這些相關的規定除了性平三法以外又很針對性的對我們的立法委員去訂這樣的相關的一個對應的法案我想是所以我想這部分也是可以透過公聽會我們請專家學者來表達他的一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3015.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3035.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以我想我在這邊真的就是希望民進黨的委員我們如果今天要審查這個法案在這個專家學者沒有充分的討論以前我們還是建議先召開公聽會再來審以上謝謝好謝謝林委員市民的程序發言再來請翁委員小林程序發言時間3分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3045.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3063.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
主席各位委員大家好我非常支持羅志祥委員還有本黨的其他委員所提出來的訴求要加開公聽會加開公聽會的這個最主要的原因就是因為本次的修法基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3064.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3080.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3080.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3090.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
閱讀委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范雲等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范雲等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范雲等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范雲等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3108.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3129.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
）一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3129.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3139.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
﹏﹏ |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3140.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3145.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具 «立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案案案。二）委員范雲等16人擬具 «立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3168.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3188.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我其實也很同意剛剛這個吳志堯委員所講的,我們要規範立法委員他的洩密的事件。那請問到現在為止趙天麟委員的這個小三事件有好好的去查清楚嗎?到底有沒有洩密? |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3190.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3207.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3208.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3208.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
閱讀委員會長 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3226.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3226.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
議員們的行為法是否適當? |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3249.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3250.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
謝謝翁委員小林,接下來請柯總裁建銘程序發言時間3分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3281.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3294.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
來,沒關係啦,你先講沒關係,沒有我?注意聽啦,注意聽啦,好不好?其實講穿了嘛,就是假開公聽會之名嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3295.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3322.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
刑阻外、立法院審查之詞嘛。然後接下來就是要三會同意。這個我那一招在胡雄總會比劍嘛。我們在這裡這麼久還不知道你們在耍什麼呢?問題現在暫時離席已經交代好了。等一下三會同意他就出現了,你放心好不好。所以這很清楚嘛。民事民委員也是法律人。民事法律人我們都親如相親。 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3324.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3351.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我坦白講,你開了這麼久了,人們已有幾乎千禧的自由。憲法有關於第七條到二十四條,很簡單,你看一下,文職又非常白話,人們的錢已一五。那自由的錢平等,第七條平等的錢,第八條自由的錢嘛。這現在第十條幾乎千禧的自由,乃至後面有命運通行自由等等嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3352.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3379.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
但是呢,千萬二十三條你要看清楚,它是有法律保障原則啊。人們想有這麼多權利,但相對義務它應該怎麼,有什麼相對義務呢?二十四條公務人員,對公務人員有些限制嘛。所以二十三條,注意看,我那天在這裡一直講過啦。防止妨礙他人自由,注意聽,避免整體委員案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3381.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3402.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
而又社會秩序促進公共利益。這種情況底下當然對於這個所謂自由權有一個比喻原則嘛。社會國家也是有一個比喻原則嘛。何來說你會牽涉你跑到大陸去呢?那你跑到大陸去的時候對於國家有利益衝突的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3404.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3414.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
有緊急違反的時候,對社會公共資訊有問題的時候,是不是有一個比例原則,這個叫做有法律保有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3416.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3437.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以不要再,你要講話你是法議人,不然歐日強你們都是法議人,那歐日強就算了,歐日強反正就是叫他講什麼,他就同樣的事情一直講,我不對其他也無所謂,但是他這種算鬥爭,另外一種的鬥爭嘛,我們都了解,沒有關係,但是請大家, |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3438.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3453.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
憲法條文看清楚,第一條到二十四條,你請看二十三條,這種很簡單的事情,你還質疑有法律人,他還在說今天要做什麼,講的文部隊長也在講。 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3454.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3471.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
今天就是有關於立法委員行為的問題嘛。行為要不要規範?當立法委員的行為他有利衝突的時候要規範?關係人是哪些人?他利衝突裡面包括是財產和其他的財產,都是要規範的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3472.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3500.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以對於到中國出來國家命運的時候,我們就是立法院也有一些法規範嘛。這個都是,所有法都是這樣。那不然的話為什麼要先立一些營業命運法,然後人民關係條約,很多法都是這樣啊。所以各位今天在這裡,我們即將看到國民黨,今天是最後,這個有關也有齁,我們稍微排到最後一天啦,所以今天有三個法全部排在這裡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3502.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3527.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
行為法依照規則乃至於立法委員行為法請貴重耐心我們今天好好開到晚上12點鐘以前不要再提倡的東西,再提倡的東西漏氣了好不好那今天就好好談嘛你要講你所提的問題到立法委員行為法的時候我可以回答你請針對現在的主題來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3530.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3555.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
來接下來程旭發言請羅志強委員時間3分鐘請那個我們交換一下對我講我剛有舉手不好意思不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3556.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3556.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
接下來就請吳釗偉程序發言三分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3561.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3585.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好 謝謝那這邊再跟那個柯總要報告一下柯總早一直講那個比例原則我在這邊跟各位報告一個點沒關係我講錯的話可以找任何一個法律學者來挑戰我我們說人沒有遷徙的自由也就是說我們不可以加任何限制在遷徙上面除非你有符合法律保留原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3586.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3610.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我想這句話沒有問題也就是說原本國家在我們憲法中他是給人民有遷徙的自由這時候如果我們要跟人民說你的遷徙上面要加上任何限制的話必須要有法律明文規定但是我們在訂定法律的時候必須考量到憲法23條的比例原則我想柯總召一直在講的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3612.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3620.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
當然柯總交對於憲法23條背得非常的完整已經是到95%以上的數字都背得對了齁但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3621.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3644.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
沒問題對柯永昭非常的厲害那但是呢我們比例原則在學理上面我們比例原則他要符合幾個合適性必要性以及狹義的比例原則這三點是我們所謂的比例原則的核心概念那從比例原則來看我上次有特別提到大家說公職人員或者是公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3646.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3656.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
|
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3656.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3679.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
你第一個你就先給他扣帽子第二個為什麼我們早期對於有一些法律對於一些人去中國大陸我們有很多的限制因為那個時代並沒有像現在有這麼多的通訊軟體以及遠端的視訊所以很多時候他們機密的交付他必須要去第三地或者是去中國大陸交付這一點我沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3680.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3709.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
但是在現在這個時代我們任何法律的規範我們要考量到它的目的性是什麼它的手段性是什麼有沒有對於人權的侵害最輕微的方式就可以解決的情況下而你要去立法去用更嚴重的方式去限制人民的遷移自由這個就會違反憲法的比例原則那今天我在上次已經講過了從各種通訊軟體在這個時代你要用洩密這個帽子去扣這些人的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3710.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3736.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
他們不能用那些通訊軟體泄密嗎?那可以的情況下誰會還刻意大剌剌的跑到中國大陸去告訴你們大家我要來這裡泄密了所以你去限制這個沒有意義除非你今天要講一個更合理的概念所以那一天我跟陳柏洋委員說你不是不能設這個法而是你要有足夠的理由來說服我們你今天設這個法的目的性存在今天泄密 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3737.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3763.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我講的用通訊軟體都可以做到的事情結果你叫我們人不可以過去那你不是拿二次大戰以前的概念來到今天立法嗎我們很多法律的規範當年是因為沒有通訊軟體所以有這些規範但是今天已經不是了大家都知道視訊傳檔案什麼都可以用通訊軟體那我不懂你這個要求的目的性在哪裡所以我個人認為甚至都有違憲之餘啦好謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3765.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3783.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
好,謝謝吳昭偉的發言。因為剛剛有表示要發程序發言的,有包括我們那個副總召。是不是跟副總召講一下,因為他有登記要程序,不是登記,他要表達要程序發言。在這裡主席跟各位委員說明一下,因為我們現在是大體討論登記發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3786.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3786.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
閱讀委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3804.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3824.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
告知不在場,我們就沒有辦法讓你程序發言。是不是因為副委員的副總召的程序發言,看他不在現場,那我們就不用等待了。那在這裡做一個,沒有沒有,因為你剛剛是讓給,我有把你寫在下來,因為剛剛是吳委員。會有啦,程序發言一定會尊重啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3826.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3851.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
現在大家手上有拿到一個委職員工進入大陸地區之申請標準作業程序。這個資料是不是都包括了?周秘書長是不是拿到了?周秘書長你看一下。因為今天的程序內容討論到一些關於我們接下來要審的立法委員行為法以及立法院的議事規則。 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3852.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3878.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那這一份呢,您看一下這份是監察院所訂定的。那監察院本身對於他們在監察院請辭職權的時候有涉及到秘密、涉密人員,他們有做涉密人員的定義跟規管。然後涉密人員包括委員、職員跟員工,如果要進出大陸地區,依照監察院的內部規則,他們也是要依照相關的法令來提出申報。 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3879.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3908.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那我想一下,民進黨,我們立法院有沒有訂這個?我們有訂,但是沒有港海監裁那一句話。不過我們有查過,因為連日有查過,所以舉個例來講,像我政務聯演就是第一,當中文有在提的時候我有報告。像我就跟前面的民進黨是可以列進去。我們立法院有訂這樣的規則。我們也有訂一個。是不是提供給我們與會的委員了解一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3909.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3931.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
議員館長 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3932.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3941.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
總委員當天的情況,現在連署正在簽上來,要給匯報。我們也都查過了。立法院本身自己也有訂了一個立法院進入大陸地區的申請標準作為一件事。我們沒有審這一個。請問要多久? |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3954.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3955.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我們接下來是由吳委員施堯來程序發言時間3分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3982.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3987.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
謝謝主席給我再一次程序發言的時間。其實我覺得就何妨直接進入大體討論了吧,甚至逐條都可以。為什麼呢?以剛剛上場來輪流程序發言的幾位國民黨委員,包括吳宗憲、張偉,包括林思銘書記長,包括我們的羅志強委員還有翁小林委員,其實你們已經實質就要討論的內容已經發表高見了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4007.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4022.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
對於我們今天要討論的立法委員行為法也好,議事規則也好,都已經有基本的掌握了。所以呢,你們都能夠具體針對內容來提出你們不同的意見,這是很好的事情。這就是我們的大體討論或除條討論要進行的階段。 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4025.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4035.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
大家針對每一個條文的理解您大可以提出您的同意反對或是支持或是不支持的意見這就是委員會中心主義所以我不曉得現在進入這個冗長的程序發言的時間何不就實質的內容來進行對話呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4045.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4071.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那我也要說剛剛吳宗憲、昭偉已經離開座位了吳昭偉可能現在這個民進黨大家都對於沈博洋委員非常的針對性今天的條文沒有沈博洋委員的法案OK今天在處理的是民進黨版的立法委員行為法在處理的是民進黨版的議事規則以及賴瑞隆委員的立法委員行為法范雲委員的立法委員行為法並沒有沈博洋的兩岸人民關係條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4074.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4095.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以在做這樣子的批判之前可能把今天討論的主題也清楚的來對焦一下。那賴瑞隆委員的立法委員行為法確實有一個條文他是有處理到那是不是有語文這個重要的證物的人員就是立法委員行為法第十條的修正案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4096.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4115.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
况若要前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並於網站公開,其報備方式由立法院定之。若違反前兩項規定的話,紀律委員會就可以立即調查。是有這個條文,但是請不要牛頭不對馬嘴。這個是賴瑞隆委員的版本。 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4116.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4138.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
省博洋委員的版本呢 again again again昨天在程序委員會再次被國民黨跟民眾黨聯手阻卻在程序委員會的排案之列我們再一次覺得非常的遺憾所以說到秘密會議剛剛大家也講什麼通訊軟體很方便啊不需要人到第三地啊就要洩密也就可以洩密 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4139.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4143.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這不就是代表我們正應當好好來面對我們對立法委員行為法怎麼去規範立委不能胡亂泄密的行為嗎?連心態都要重整重建啊。請看看民進黨的議事規則的條文。我們有三個條文而這些條文的執行我們透過非常長時間的討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4160.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4180.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
例如說第47條的第三項我們具體針對規範的對象秘密會議的規範對象不只是立法委員還有列席人員還有會場的員工禁止攜帶任何可以可供哪些行為有可能構成泄密呢就是抄錄影印錄音錄影 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4181.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4184.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
厲（二）委員范雲等18人擬具〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4197.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4222.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
特殊需求的前向人員因身心障礙而有需求,因為他需要一些輔具,經主席同意者得使用相關器材作為輔具。我用這一個條文的內容要來告訴大家,今天要討論的是在立法院裡面的秘密會議各種形式的管控事項。而且民進黨版是周延到身心障礙者他的輔具是需要被排除的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4223.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4233.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
然後我們需要被管制的項目因應新科技的發達剛剛各位委員都講到新科技發達有好多可能超入之方便所以因應新科技我們剛剛有好多的面向是經過民進黨版跟學者專家討論的恩賜 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4241.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4267.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
厲定出來的所以各位國民黨委員如果有高見歡迎在逐條的時候提出更具體的我們好好來自我約束好好來落實國會的保密事項所以我不好意思我要佔用程序發言的時間來講條文因為基本上我覺得很多委員對於條文的理解已經掌握了ABC但如果可以掌握到XYZ我們就可以很快的聚焦來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4268.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4296.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以呢沒有問題的我看看各位委員都準備好對於條文的理解隨時right now就可以進行主條討論我們不要再浪費民脂民膏第12天的議程不要再重蹈覆轍真的我看羅志強委員也準備充分啊林思明委員也都是有理解啊謝龍介大哥還沒發言但我想你一切都了然於心然後翁曉琳委員剛剛可以就具體的條文提出您的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4298.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4304.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
為什麼?不要害怕!出來打球!而且大家都做好準備了!我們就逐條討論,謝謝! |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4307.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4324.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好,謝謝委員施堯的程序發言。事實上已經觸及到我們今天要排審的民進黨團旁板的立法院職權刑事法第52條跟立法院議事規則的第47條。好,那程序發言部分有審委員發會登記。好,時間三分鐘,請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4338.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4365.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
主席、各位同仁,今天本來我是有跟莊瑞雄委員大家說我們今天就不要發言了,大家說就好了。說來說去都說一樣的,上禮拜大體來訪也一樣。但是事實上有時候,我們做事的人有時候在賣董的,現在坐在這裡賣董,起來說兩句。因為這個齁,我們在整個過程裡面齁,我一直聽到這個遷徙自由、憲法保障遷徙自由,我一聽到遷徙自由這個字我就抽出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4366.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4380.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我實在是,這個我法律不是讀得很好啦齁,雖然我是法律系畢業,但是我法律不是讀得很好。用遷徙自由來討論這一條,是不是大家在場也這麼多法學溯宴,會不會覺得有點糟糕啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4382.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4395.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
你去跟軍營門口的憲兵講說想遷徙自由啊,說我要進去遷徙自由啊。那你說去旋轉門的這些官員你跟他講說,欸我有就業的自由,你為什麼這個給我限制旋轉門呢?如果對法律保留,好來我就跟你討論嘛。我們現在就在討論法律要不要保留啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4402.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4422.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
阿你不讓我們討論嘛!你不讓我們討論嘛!我們要討論!我們要討論法律要不要保留嘛!你可以說比例原則,你們覺得不符合比例原則,那我們就在討論的時候來討論符不符合比例原則嘛!要不然照你們講說哪牽起自由,所以不能訂這一條,那兩岸人民關係條例、地球條例事實上是在訂心生的齁?還是心生的齁? |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4426.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4435.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我就是法律系,我是你們被法律系人笑啦,我跟你講,沒關係沒關係,我很尊重你,我發言的時候,我們可以來辦一個辯論啦齁。這個本來就,我們今天就是要討論,我們要不要用法律保留嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4445.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4468.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那接下來我們才來討論說那這個規定符不符合比例原則嘛,要不然我們人民關係條例裡面,那人民關係條例規定的這些人,縣市長什麼這些人,他們不是報備,他們要申請欸。我們立法,我們今天的立法院行為刑事法也完全沒有限制你去,只是你要報備。哪裡限制了遷徙自由?沒有禁止你去喔! |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4469.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4492.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
然後再來又講說現在通訊軟體這麼發達還要用這個來限制還限制你不能去我用通訊軟體我就可以洩密了現在科技這麼發達你要刺探軍機需要走到軍營裡面去嗎那你就說那以後軍營都不要門禁了我們軍事基地都不要門禁了現在通訊軟體這麼發達我們根本就不用進去就可以了那你還門禁什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4494.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4503.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這種邏輯齁,這是完全令人費解啦,完全令人費解。現在通訊軟體這麼發達,要舔共用通訊軟體舔共就好,為什麼要在會期中還組一團還要過去勒?把通訊軟體扯來這個基本的這些倫理規範,我覺得這個就實在是離譜了啦齁。當然我是覺得啦,我講這麼多也不用聽啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4521.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4536.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
因為重點不是看我們在說什麼啦不是聽我們說什麼是看大家在做什麼這幾天下來我們看不用聽國民黨在講什麼也不用聽民進黨在講什麼你要看國民黨在做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4537.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4557.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
國民黨在做就是一早動員來提然後準備提商會動議不讓法案討論就是這樣子嘛這個就是最簡單的其他都是理由啦羅志強很聰明他花了很多時間想很多理由然後再來再來這個這個大家想很多理由但其實這些理由都不重要重要的是他不讓我們開會不讓民進黨的法條審查就這樣子所以現在兩現在在這個國會裡面我認為說政黨互相之間的尊重蕩然無存 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4568.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4595.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
過去國會裡面大家在怎麼相互尊重為什麼我們設兩個召委就是你不是說說每個委員會召委就一定是多數黨人當召委少數黨人會當召委然後尊重每一個召委排案的權利大家來討論結果你們一而再再而三我們中召委所排的案子你們來提三位動議今天的假動每天早上一來假動就是要提三位動議一來就是要提三位動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4597.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4623.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
是為了不開會而來,不是為了開會而來。所以我們不用聽國民黨講什麼,我們要看他們做什麼。以上。好,謝謝沈委員。因為沈委員剛剛的程序發言事實上也觸及到的失智討論的內容。其實並不在,剛剛在討論的什麼遷徙啦、限制附中啦,那個都不是今天我們要排審的法案的含色範圍。今天法案排審的含色範圍大概就是以秘密會議的規範為主。 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4625.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4654.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那先有秘密會議規範了誰是涉密人員才有其他法條對於涉密人員是否到其他地區或國家要有所樣的程序這才是這樣那跟委員會報告一下目前我們已經拿到了那個立法院秘書處所提供的立法院職員進入大陸地區之申請標準作業程序注意這是只有職員那監察院的是委員職員和員工我想這個是還是有點不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4654.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4672.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那這個資料就請大家參考那接下來還是請大家針對今天我們要進入到大體討論和主條討論的三個法草案包括立法委員行為法、立法院職員刑事法跟立法院議事規則就這個部分我們要進行大體討論之前讓大家程序發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4673.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4698.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那接下來陳玉凡因為有那個羅委員羅委員剛剛的有表示我們請羅委員陳玉凡三分鐘再來是柯委員然後還有翁委員有登記有登記再來林委員柯總召你又在罵自己了剛剛柯總召講了一句名言啊不要拿公聽會作為阻擾審查的藉口啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4699.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4720.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那柯總召 這句話我還給你啊 欸一個月前欸 也沒多久欸 記性也不要太差民進黨坐在那邊是講什麼 國民黨在提的國會改革的法案提出來的時候 你們要求是社會大眾要多溝通 要讓大家了解國民黨版的國會改革法案裡面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4721.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4741.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以我跟你講我今天反而都覺得說吳宗憲、昭偉我要說你兩句了啦你看看今天是什麼樣子你對人家那麼好對不對他們一講就吳宗憲這樣就說好啦真的我覺得社會溝通也很重要所以國民黨版的法案基本上吳昭偉排了一場專報再排一場公聽會我跟你講吳昭偉就是人太好結果民進黨又說哎呀一場公聽會不夠啦怎麼夠啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4749.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4773.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這樣子社會大眾不了解啊!國會改革何其重要啊!你們怎麼可以這麼草率啊!結果吳昭偉嚴審了將近兩個禮拜等著讓宗嘉賓昭偉可以來開兩場的公聽會總共一場專報三場公聽會開完以後國民黨版才逐條審查我要問一句話公聽會有這麼可怕嗎?社會溝通這麼困難嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4776.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4795.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
對不對 柯建民為什麽一直打柯建民 我不懂啊 我為一個月前的柯建民抱屈啊我再回到我們講的鍾嘉賓、趙偉剛剛講的東西 我跟各位講 好沒關係 你要一個一個公聽會來算第一個4月3號請問民進黨版的國會法案在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4796.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4806.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
在哪裡啊?看不到啊?4月3號的公聽會就只有討論國民黨版的國會改革法案,不是嗎?這第一場,你們先少一場。4月10號跟4月11號我跟各位說啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4811.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4839.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那一天其實民進黨版的還在附議期啦所以有列為所謂的書面參考資料連網路上都沒有我們辦公室有去看網路網路上公告給學者專家都沒有啦書面才附參考資料啦實際上當天討論的也都是國民黨的國會改革法案然後大家來檢討裡面到底好不好可不可以時不時用要不要改 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4840.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4857.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
民進黨的這麼棒,像剛剛胡思耀講的,好周延啊!我們不管是行為法,不管是這個立法院的職權行使法,不管是議事規則,所有的國會的法案,我們民進黨這麼棒的法案,天下不知乃為其詞啊!那就辦公廳會啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4861.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4888.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
給天下周知嘛我要問各位啊三場公聽會有這麼難嗎一場專報有這麼難嗎如果你們能夠尊重一個月前的民進黨這一個月三場公聽會一場專報也不就辦了嗎那今天大家就來開始審啊我跟各位講我強調還是一句話我要的是公平性今天吳宗憲召委尊重民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4890.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4905.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以我們等到三場公聽會一場專報之後才開始進行的逐條討論逐條審查。那我想請教一下為什麼今天民進黨你就不能夠學習吳宗憲的...抱歉啊主席剛剛他多講三分鐘我要繼續講下去。 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4907.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4931.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
為什麼不能尊重吳宗憲召委?為什麼不能夠去援用吳宗憲召委對民進黨的體恤跟善意,甚至考量民進黨的主張,要讓社會大眾廣之、公之、周之一起詳細討論呢?在這邊沒有程序正義,這些實質討論不周延啊!你民進黨的啊,不周延嘛!社會溝通不夠嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4932.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4937.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以我到現在不能理解公聽會有這麼可怕嗎?照民進黨當時的角度來講你為什麼不幹公聽會的國民黨?為什麼不要?為什麼不要?為什麼不要?辦了你了換了你們了我為什麼要?我為什麼要?辦公聽會就是延宕今天所謂的國會的審查有這種事情嗎?我跟你講民進黨這種雙標我在這邊直接鄭重宣布啦我已經看太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4962.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4975.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
很簡單民進黨的標準我就用在民進黨身上以後請你們所有意識規則的主張提出之前想想到一個月後是不是柯建民要打柯建民是不是像柯建民說的那個東西又要回頭回立標打柯建民 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4976.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4993.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這邊我的主張很簡單沒有今天不讓民進黨審但是比照國民黨三場公聽會一場專報如果鍾嘉賓、張偉你堅持那兩場公聽會列個參考資料就算已經討論民進黨版沒有關係那你再加上一場公聽會一場專報 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4996.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5018.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
國民黨本身三場公聽會一場專報阿!即便你用你這麼寬鬆的標準,列為參考資料就已經算是討論過了,那也就是你那兩場阿!那請問第三場公聽會在哪裡?那一場專報在哪裡?我沒看到阿!我沒看到阿!不用擔心阿!不用緊張阿!三場一場啦!就這樣子!以上! |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5019.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5030.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
好,先做宣告今天有委員提出臨時提案依本會往例均於上午11時處理。好,那接下來程序發言的部分有柯委員柯總召請。時間3分鐘。柯委員啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5045.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5063.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
你要當打手,不要江南財進講一些歪語人家聽不懂的。你只要自己打自己,我從來不會打自己打自己,心理指正沒有關係。你每天都要自己打自己。你是江南財進,財進了吧?玩死人也點頭吧?你講胡說八道嘛。對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5066.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5092.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
你現在是在講什麼?我們現在講公聽會的事情,好,只要不是民進黨一直要求,然後我們自己排兩場。吳宗憲委員是一場就要把它結束掉。從開始要排這些新法,我不斷打電話給吳宗憲委員,吳委員你是法律人,你要把這個東西好好審查,公聽會就好好開,反正不急。過去2016的時候,我們審查到2018, |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5095.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5096.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那是呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5096.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5115.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
何時要把這個當作把國會改革整個迴旋單當作到大陸辦所裡,所以有他agenda嘛。在我年以前要表決掉,那大家要很清楚嘛。所以今天我們要談的就是說,不能糾結喊糾結啦。邏輯顛倒然後自己每天在自己的後續給大家看。大家要看我啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5117.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5144.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我什麼時候自己打自己我絕對邏輯都一致的所以今天在這個地方我來奉勸國民黨要派出來打手應該有稍微有一class嘛公務員還到重點了因為這個我要講一句話就是什麼叫開門引道引清兵入關剛剛吳宗憲委員講說70千自由現在他不要說全部把他戴紅帽子 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5146.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5173.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
不要說到大會去都戴紅帽子,這大家都有這些現象,網路都可以,要洩密什麼行為都可以。文宗憲委員吶,包括國民黨委員,你們自己常常聽看。我們為什麼有國安物法?我們為什麼要國安物法?兩人民關係要有刑法、勤工法、國際經濟保護法,然後自己完成到法。這些國安物法我們兩人民關係為什麼要有?當然這個必然之來要為了國家安全的問題啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5177.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5194.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
人家那麽肯當這個推銷大刀去,怎麽要引入中共呢?這一種國家問題在這裏,而且被交代回來又修反送中法,甚至未來的國安法都會修。這種迎合中共的利益,難道不是存在於國家嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5196.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5210.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
到底大家是不是議好委員?議好院前面要審查法案。當然有一些名言者﹑有的正當性﹑有的不應該涉嫌﹑有的應該自由化﹑都有啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5212.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5239.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我們每個人都在處理這些法案。我們不是好像國民黨一般會說,欸,你那憲制裡面提起自由,當然會有一些憲法23條又逼顏值啊。你自由憲有憲制,你認憲有憲制啊。你不能侵害我國的利益啊。這個,什麼選選運動的道理,難道還要爭辯嗎?現在國民黨講到最後,就戲碼不斷重演,要讓民進黨的版本,永永出了違規。 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5240.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5248.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
都應該說要併案審查,也不允許廢,一定連要過去嘛。問題是李毓昌就五一七,要跟他五一七連要過去,然後昨天陳奕和不是, |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5256.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5273.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
不是要擋ACC嗎?要同意錢嗎?總統陳毅委員說要請總統做國民報告﹖可以啊!總統來國民報告﹖當然你來要求他﹖他一定會來啊!那至於呢﹖是不是要幾問幾答﹖這個人們違憲你當然很清楚吧! |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5274.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5299.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那中間要有什麼?五年以後,行政院長兩個禮拜要被尋了。你把國家整個憲制打亂掉,你要修,總統要先來。那你弄出一個違憲版本,難道不被實現嗎?這個是要製造憲政衝突嘛。主要執政嘛。然後要用不斷某些攻擊嘛。開直播嘛。那這個黨人看不啊。可以這樣搞嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5300.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5322.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
各位,難道你前陣子我選來,你是不是要擺在市議辦上,擺在裡面,你來這裡,外部副行,你等於選擇黃青龍來看我,不用指揮了,有需要如此嗎?就算胡文煦在那裏面,你們全部,全部胡說八道通, |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5324.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5326.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
接下來有翁委員小玲程修發言時間3分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5354.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5357.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我在這裡我想要提醒柯總召, |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5358.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5384.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
你所指責國民黨所做的這些事情事實上就是你們之前一直在做的不要在那裏說羅委員什麽拿直播的這個機器在這裏直播你們的助理們你們的這個這些同學拿這個請這個助理們拿的這個照相機直對著我們委員拍這難道沒有侵犯到我們的這個照相權沒有侵犯到我們的資訊隱私嗎我是認為說不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5388.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5416.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
不要把這些事情講得這樣好像覺得我們都是什麼違憲亂證你們今天自己提的這個法案哪一個不是違憲亂證好從憲法23條剛剛柯總召不斷在講憲法23條的比例原則他是憲法23條除了有四大正當事由之外他還必須要符合法律保留原則以及比例原則剛剛不斷的在講到比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5418.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5445.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
什麼叫比例原則我教憲法20年請問柯總統你懂得什麼叫比例原則的真正意涵嗎?比例原則就是禁止過度不要用大砲轟小鳥坦白說今天你們所提的這個相關的法案擴大到連立法委員的助理受立法委員監督的代理處理事務的助理以及他的配偶他的死女等等的相關的這些關係人實在是範圍太大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5448.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5473.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
大家現在到港澳到大陸地區交旅遊遊學等等的這個情形非常的頻繁為什麼要讓這些人的資訊公開你們能保護他們的人身自由安全嗎我就說這個已經嚴重了違反比例原則比例原則在這裡強調就是手段與目的要適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5476.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5479.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
閱讀委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案〉案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5506.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5528.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
現在還要想來就是擴大整個這個規範的範圍,這不當的約束我們所有的立法委員的助理,然後他的相關的共同的家屬的配偶以及這個受指揮監督以及代理處理事務的這些人,這樣的規定這樣的約束合理嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5532.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5549.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我今天看到民進黨委員在這裡口口聲聲的在這裡說他們這個要依法要尊重憲法可是所提的所有的法案基本上都是不符合我們現在的立法程序立法技術以及違背我們憲法保障人民的基本權利這麼重要的議題不值得開公聽會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5556.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5575.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這樣的法案通過之後我很懷疑未來誰還想要來當立法委員的助理會想要來幫立法委員處理事務這個是非常非常有問題的條文在沒有開公聽會之前根本就不應該對這樣的條文進行審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5578.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5596.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好,謝謝翁委員,也再次跟委員會報告一下,剛剛翁委員所談的是賴瑞隆委員版本的立法委員行為法。這個法在本席4月10號、4月11號召開公聽會的時候,就已經屬於我們公聽會的範疇了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5597.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5613.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
你可以看得到他的內容他是在2月27號印發在4月10號已經在進入委員會待審所以說明一下如果以有無公聽會的部分那賴瑞隆委員版本的行為法的確就在我們那兩天公聽會的討論範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5615.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5638.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那當然是不是跟委員會請教一下因為事實上剛剛大家討論到的已經進入了條文的內容是否我們還是要把程序發言進行完之後我們就來進行大體討論那因為有表達要程序發言的還有零四名委員零四名委員還有程序發言嗎還是要進行大體討論主條好程序發言時間三分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5643.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5668.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我要回應柯建民總召了,他剛才提到我。我想這個柯總召又大法官上身了,剛才一直對憲法23條法律保留原則、比例原則一直提出他的一個看法。其實我想剛才吳宗憲委員對這個憲法保留原則以及比例原則的相關的規定,他已經講得非常清楚,我們不能只看文藝解釋啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5669.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5696.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
要去瞭解他的一個立法的精神所以今天這個立法委員行為法去訂定相關限制我們立法委員還有國會助理或者議員到中港澳去旅遊我想這個訂這個限制人民這個行動自由這樣的一個法案當然我們就要考量到說訂出這個法案他是否有符合我們法律的這個目的性以及他的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5697.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5698.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼ |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5720.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5728.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
所以我想柯總召這個大法官上升這樣的一個說法完全還批判說我們這些法律人我不懂法律他最懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5729.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5729.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
厲法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5760.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5787.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以這個已經完全違反權力分立的原則了怎麼定出一個說立法委員竟然要受到行政機關的一個審查所以這是一個很矛盾的一個立法那所以我要再跟總召來這個要跟你說一下對啦我跟你說啦我想我們法律人堅持我們的正義的一個想法所以我們的行為一定是符合正義的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5788.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5804.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
不是你去說你法律人好像你怎麼樣怎麼樣李世民你還要連任啊連任新竹鄉親都在看都在直播啊我要告訴新竹的鄉親李世民絕對是站在公平正義的一方以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5807.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5807.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
議員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5837.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5865.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那您不做程序發言,因為剛好有吳思堯委員跟莊立元委員,你們兩個程序要兌換嗎?那就讓...程序...那就...好啦好啦... |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5866.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5883.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
來 那個吳委員跟莊委員你們順序。好 那請吳事要委員程序發言。時間3分鐘。那麼因為在場有有非本會委員的如果因為本會委員不能做程序發言只能會詢問跟非本會委員說明一下。好 請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5884.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5913.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我真的是迫不及待要站上來逐條說明請委員坐在這裡好好看清楚今天要審的條文是什麼第一個今天沒有審博洋的條文審博洋的條文是兩岸人民關係條例現在連內政委員會都還排不進去因為被國民黨被民眾黨聯手第二次在程序委員會被檔案剛剛羅志強委員講得很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5914.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5925.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
公聽會有助於法案討論,那何妨讓沈博洋委員的版本突破程序委員會被檔案的這種限制,讓他交付內政委員會審查。內政委員會要排兩場、三場公聽會,這種我們都非常樂意。好嗎?不要擋沈博洋委員的版本。然後呢,我們來看看今天的條文。 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5938.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5962.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
大家都講錯了今天請看看唯一一條賴瑞隆委員針對立法委員行為法第十條他唯一針對大家一直在說的是不是有強害憲法的人民遷徙自由我跟大家講請看清楚他的第十條有三項第一項在處理秘密會議要竊結書否則不得參加這個應該沒有意義吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5967.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5989.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
第二項就是大家都說錯了不開會期我不曉得你們閱讀能力有問題嗎吳宗憲召委我可以跟您報告一下您剛剛都指涉錯誤吳宗憲召委賴瑞隆委員的第十條我唸給大家聽第十條的第二項曾參加立法院秘密會議之立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5992.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6007.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
Psaki本人、其關係人於任期中或威聘關係存續期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並於網站公開,其報備方法由立法院定之。所以他的規範主體對象是誰?是在立法院開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6012.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6039.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
有參與到秘密會議的立委及關係人才要登載、才要納管。這是今天審查的賴瑞隆委員的版本。絕對不是國民黨委員說的,哎呀,立委的助理從此以後就不能再去中國了,就不能再到其他地方去旅行了。今天賴瑞隆委員的版本的第二項是在說有參與秘密會議的立委。 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6042.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6067.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
主體是這些所以大家認為有參加秘密會議的委員難道去敵對國家跟重要的黨政軍人士的會面不需要事前登載嗎?這個讓社會公平嘛所以不要隨便無限上綱今天的條文、舊條文、論條文從來沒有講到任何人只要跟立法院有關係他的遷徙自由、旅行自由都被規範並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6069.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6088.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
然後我也要補充一下我手上拿的謝謝剛剛周恩來秘書長給我們的立法院的職員去中國的規定還有大家手上已經有監察院的人員去中國的規定是什麼所以秘書長以立法院的規定秘書長如果進入大陸地區要10個工作日檢據簽成然後簽給院長同意11職等以上要7天以前10職等以下要5天以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6100.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6125.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
檢察院也是徵務人員涉及國安利益機密人員進入大陸地區要10天以前檢認11指等要7天以前檢認10指等以下要5天這都是各院適用的所以這都是我們在憲法的授權下並沒有強害人民的居住遷徙自由而是你有語文重要的機密證物的可能的話你事前登載 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6126.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6135.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
如果國民黨委員說只要去規範就已經是違憲的話那請問各院都在適用的各級機關適用的已經行之多年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6140.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6159.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以不要這麼針對性把立法委員納管也沒有這麼可怕只要大家坦蕩蕩我去中國交流我不會洩密我不會去舔共我不會看到王滬寧自己就成為小樓樓小跟班大家行的正做的直 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6162.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6176.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
你一樣經過登載事後報告依然來去自如啊所以就條文論條文請把今天的條文讀清楚林思明委員看清楚您剛剛解讀的根本不是今天討論的條文好嗎謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6182.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6208.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝吳委員施堯的程序發言那還是跟委員報告有三點第一剛剛吳委員所說的那個前往中國及港澳地區是向立法院報備報備並不是向行政機關報備是向立法院報備第二也提醒大家剛剛請秘書長提供的是立法院的職員目前是職員他們有這個正在簽合中的規定但是監察院的包括委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6209.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6231.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那這也是為什麼今天我們會有處理賴瑞隆委員版的《立法委員行為法》的第十條的部分,委員部分是不是要含色進來。第三,剛剛幾位委員所關心的關係人包括哪些?這大概賴瑞隆委員版是寫在第二條,關係人有那麼多人,但是前提是必須委員有參加機密會議,那才有這些問題。其實更嚴重的是第十一條, |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6232.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6244.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
厲委跟他的工會助理不得去公務機關去參加轉投機制世界的職務,這個可能會比較重要一點,不過這個還是尊重各位委員的程序發言,現在由專委委員要進行程序發言,時間3分鐘,請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6250.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6265.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6265.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6268.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我相信今天要進入實質會比較困難。國民黨朋友有國民黨的一個堅持。但是這個堅持、這個理由也不要亂講了。你像比如說林士明委員還有我們的趙偉、吳宗憲委員剛剛一直提到憲法講的比例原則拿出來挑戰民進黨。我就在這個地方來好好的回應,否則我很擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6289.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6313.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
厲法法制委員會所提出的憲法法律上的一個見解會一笑大方。比如說我們今天在審的賴瑞隆委員的版本這個部分我看到國民黨委員所提出來的幾位委員的高見是講的說違反比例原則違反憲法保障人民遷徙的自由其實在昨天所提到的還有言論自由各位把它想想看 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6314.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6319.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
剛剛吳宗憲委員提到了說憲法第23條的規定其實如果大家現在現場去把它google一下憲法第一章在談的就是總綱那你從在第二章裡面從第七條到第22條談的是人民的權利跟義務那這些限制在23條你規定你就必須要不能違反法律保留的一個原則那什麼叫法律保留什麼叫比例原則我在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6340.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6367.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
民進黨來提出一個跟國民黨的見解不一樣的一個地方你去打開行政程序法第七條其實這已經開宗明義講得非常清楚啦真正要談整個比例原則的話第一個是的就像吳宗憲剛剛所講的第一個是在講說適當性原則就是說你這個手段有沒有辦法去達成這樣的一個目的那如果說我們立法院今天的立法今天的版本你說語文曾經國家機密的人那這一些人要向立法院來報備有沒有辦法來達成目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6370.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6378.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
一、有可能達到這個目的所以通過第一個審查第二個就是說你那個必要性原則啊就是吳宗憲你剛講的最小親愛的一個原則這樣的一個限縮 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6382.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6401.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
到底會不會是造成他是很大很大的一個侵害如果說只是向立法院報備的話本席倒認為這個還是符合最小侵害原則所以說在多種方法裡面你沒有去採最激烈的我用最小的報備向立法院報備 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6402.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6403.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
厲法院提出報備。 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6417.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6436.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這樣子是用大砲打小鳥嗎?所以在本席看來,這個完全都沒有去違反到憲法第23條所謂的法律保留,就是憲法的一個比例原則。我們今天就是要來進入實質討論啊。國民黨如果有任何的高見的話,你認為說眾多方法之中,你認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6439.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6454.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
厲法委員或者這些助理曾經語文這個立法院的一個機密你說這一些人不需要簡單的向立法院來提出報備那你們有更好的方法也可以啊你們認為有更小的那個小那個手槍就可以打到啦民進黨這個還叫做大砲啊可以聽聽你們的見解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6459.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6460.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
elong委員市民登記程序發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6485.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6487.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
對於所有的國會改革我們在立法院從2月1號到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6514.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6538.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我們真的瞭解到一個泱泱的執政黨在2012年2015年對全民的承諾要來做陽光的國會所有相關改革的法案結果8年過去了一直到今天在野黨國民黨民眾黨提出來以後民進黨大夢初醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6541.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6568.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
馬上急行軍國民黨做什麼就跟什麼然後再罵什麼今天所有的版本不就是當時民進黨所提出來的嗎而到今時今日彷彿格式在這裡此言本席在這裡看了真的實在是民進黨跟馬戲耍猴戲的班子有什麼不一樣天天把委員會當秀場 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6571.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6592.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
各式各樣的人都能夠當部分區我們真的沒有辦法想像搞詐騙的也可以來當部分區什麼樣的人都可以來當部分區搞網軍也可以來今天把災區當秀場我們再一次的表達我們再一次的表達這種會議開下去到底有什麼樣的意義要讓行政權來規範立法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6600.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6627.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這荒天下之大忌叫行政院來監督立法院這個就是民進黨在多年執政以後此言他是一個民主的政黨讓自由民主能夠帶進台灣八年以後九十六年背叛交錯貪贓枉法腐敗不堪為什麼要怕國民黨反的國會改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6630.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6658.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
來給他三讀通過國民黨版的國會改革是幫民進黨把所有的害蟲幫執政黨把所有的腐敗能夠清除民進黨黨主席賴清德應該要公開的表達感謝在野黨來協助執政黨除弊我們看到就是不斷的在這裡杯葛今天還要此言 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6660.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6685.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
講立法委員行為法執政黨國會的負責人柯建民他講出了所有民進黨的心聲只有政治算計跟利益完全沒有心中沒有人民不但可食人血饅頭到現在為止執政黨的黨主席謙卑謙卑再謙卑 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6687.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6714.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
賴慶德先生到現在昨天除了審議以外沒有任何意思表示還要此言來講行為法這樣的一個國會負責人是民進黨到今天為止議委來這裡費兩生生就洗心革面而且巴西的巴西的紀律委員會委員通通是民進黨籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6716.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6743.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們在這裡啊,再一次啊,覺得以為這樣子,民進黨已經習慣了嗎?為了所有網路,為了所有媒體,為了所有網軍,船過就水無痕了嗎?八八風災,國民黨的行政院長陪爸爸去吃個晚飯,行政院長要下台。 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6745.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6764.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
因為,面對災難的時候,他只不過是巴巴結國民黨的行政院長陪著爸爸吃一個晚餐,要下台。今天民進黨把災區的災民,踐踏在腳下,啃人血饅頭,還大言不慚在這裡,這就是民進黨,還有什麼行為法? |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6768.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6783.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這個東西在這裡不用再開了,今天就是浪費任命的時間了。那個陳勛發言告一段落,因為在場有范雲委員跟陳柏南委員要做會議詢問,是不是讓他,有啦,會議詢問,會議詢問,有啦,會議詢問啦,會議詢問,剛剛已經有會議動議了,有,會議詢問,沒問題啦,沒找沒找啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6793.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6799.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我要回答你的問題啊!你要有資格在這講這些話好不好!你要先照照你的鏡子吧! |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6801.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6815.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
何時可悲啊?主席在這邊吼,剛剛已經有委員表示了會議循環不依法上位動議的處理。但在會議上,你要出上位動議案,怎麼會上位動議不經討論啊?但是現在會議詢問,目前沒有停止會議詢問的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6829.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6833.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
主席會處理商會動議,因為剛剛范雲委員會議詢問了。第一時間您在發言之前我就已經先做程序發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6857.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6886.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
你本來就應該要處理啊,優先處理三會動議啊。三會動議,三會高位,不經討論就要處理。那是不經討論,所以三會動議不討論,所以會議詢問。你會議主席一千次啦,會議詢問一千次啦。不然你九十六、三個月再來,三個月回來。會議詢問一千次啦,現在只有政黨委員會,非本會委員他要做會議詢問啦,是不是這樣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6890.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6891.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
問一問,我們就處理了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6913.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6928.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
會議詢問啦!趕快會議詢問啦!因為在場只有兩位要會議詢問,會議完了我們就馬上處理啦!強調一下,三位動議是不能討論的!那個,會議詢問!等一下!我剛才,大家都在講很清楚,胡文綺到他... |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6929.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6957.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
他跳到後面去,然後所有的東西跟你們全部結束,你要怎麼處理?你可以出來你媽的媽叫他跑人啊?你要做個九十歲的嘛!我要好好回答你的問題啊!有啦,范委員你趕快回答詢問啦!等一下啦!讓范委員,范委員詢問好不好?你不下去,這樣對得起主席嗎?他這樣的情況,他這樣對得起主席嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6958.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6964.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
議員會議訊不能討論,我現在沒有辦法討論三位同意,來請,那個森委員。那個尊重主席。 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6989.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7009.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
請尊重主席,好嗎?是會議詢問。我想請問,你們可以把會議主席送紀律委員會好嗎?就尊重主席。我請尊重主席好嗎?尊重主席也是要送紀律委員會喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7010.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7014.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我的會議詢問是今天我們必須是審查復總召,請問是主席比較大還是副總召比較大? |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7025.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7027.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
請你尊重主席尊重我的會議詢問好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7053.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7055.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
請依照議事規則,論理公範及行為準則,健全民主正維,為維護國會尊嚴的話,請問一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7076.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7078.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
為什麼每次討論國會密度條款你就要散會?每次我要編我的法條的時候, |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7098.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7105.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的時候你就要散會?為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的時候你就要散會?為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的話你就要散會?為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的時候你就要散會?為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的時候你就要散會? |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7127.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7138.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
好,民進黨團版本密兔的時候,為什麼副坤祺都不發言?你為什麼還可以進行會議詢問?你說這是為什麼會議詢問?請問他算什麼會議詢問?他算什麼會議詢問?你告訴我算什麼會議詢問?什麼東西啊?副坤祺也負責理由三十幾例啊?你負責理由三十幾例啊?你負責理由三十幾例啊?你負責理由三十幾例啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7157.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7160.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
誰在破壞開會的秩序?誰沒有講完話題?誰在破壞開會的秩序? |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7184.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7187.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
立法院議事規則第26條第二項會議中 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7211.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7220.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
會議進行中出席委員得提出散會之動議,經15人以上聯署或互不經討論,由主席晉赴表決。 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7225.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7238.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
會議規範當中的各種動議、散會動議的優先順位最高。散、擱、停、延、復、休、午動議最高。才能擱置動議。那主席就要來處理散會動議。那因為這是動議。那不能討論。那因為有委員提出詢問。我們讓他詢問。詢問完我就要處理了。那詢問的內容大家可以有意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7249.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7268.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
如果對於主席要讓其他委員進行會議詢問,如果有不同意見,你們可以對抗,你們就異議,異議就照規則來處理。但是我現在也聽完了范委員的詢問了,那你們依舊授書面來,五個人以上。現在呢,如果沒有其他要詢問,如果沒有要詢問,我要處理動議了。我要處理動議了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7278.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7282.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
觀眾謙有委員林思明等人提出散會動議請宣讀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7301.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7329.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
提案一,三會動議,針對本日會議五月八日議程,建起...吳宗憲啦,你老法議的,你能鑄作為例啦。第26條,第57條,規定提議三會是否有當進行公決。提案人委員林思明、謝龍街、翁曉琳、羅志強、吳宗憲、副官請訓讀完畢。好,針對三會動議,請問有異議?有異議。有異議現在進行表決,採取...採用舉手表決,表決前先清點在場出席人數。 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7331.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7352.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
好,在場出席委員11人不函主席,現在開始表決,贊成者請舉手。好,清點後贊成者6人請放下,反對者請舉手。本會委員反對者5人請放下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7356.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7372.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
表決結果在場出席委員11人不管主席贊成者6人反對者5人。散會動議贊成者多數通過。本次會議進行到此。討論事項所列議案未及處理部分均另定期繼續審查。現在散會。謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7380.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7408.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
欸 你是民啊 你法院欸請讓沈博洋的案子可以副委員會來開公聽會請讓沈博洋的國安條款可以送委員會來開公聽會啊不要害怕 出來打球國民黨來開立法院就是會副康熙拍個桌子大家就開不成會了對啊 國會是耍流氓的地方嗎副康熙拍個桌子這立法院就開不成會了大家現在要了解立法院的狀況齁 |