| IVOD_ID |
158898 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158898 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
29 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-15T11:20:51+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-15T11:43:38+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:22:47 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1acd6af6a604b43e901cb09e2058dd4a02b9af4de1086944f16df6a493928834075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:20:51 - 11:43:38 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院、法務部率所屬相關單位列席就「司法訴訟實務上關於預防性權利救濟之適用」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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好 謝謝 有請副秘書長副秘 |
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副秘書長今天辛苦了從早上到現在其實我們今天私委會大概是全院裡面最認真的委員會都一直還有在進行相關的專案報告事實上從 |
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39.199 |
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這一兩個禮拜大家其實很關心的就是行政院的復議案還有民進黨委員會不會利用法律還沒有生效之前就提起釋憲案及這個暫時處分案那麼剛剛其實吳宗憲委員已經有問過了然後我也看了這個新聞 |
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69.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那麼應該就是民進黨黨團已經正式的據狀提出申請釋憲及暫時處分那麼我想請教一下就是這個案件是有民進黨委員親送的嗎還是誰去遞狀的 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
75.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
103.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那個報案委員因為從早上我們都一直在那個立法院那我問一下我們廳長目前得到的那個資訊廳長知道是有委員親送的嗎親自送件還是由誰去送的這個我們不清楚好那麼當然剛剛莊元雄委員他們是認為說在法律未生效之前民進黨就是立法委員他是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
105.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
121.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
權利可以去申請釋憲的那麼最後的關鍵點當然還是在憲法法庭大法官要不要受理這個釋憲案並且做成這個暫時處分的裁定那麼事實上我們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
122.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
144.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
在這裡我要想請教這個副秘書長據您了解就是從我們行限以來有沒有曾經大法官是就哪一個釋憲案是針對還沒有生效的法律來進行釋憲的或是做成暫時處分案的這部分資料我是不是請蘇業廷廷長來回答好 是 請廷長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
145.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
172.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
是先回答委員如果是有關於暫時處分的話目前准許的新救治加起來是四件那其實都是針對已經生效的法律已經生效的法律那如果是針對釋憲案或者是憲法訴訟在新制沒有但在救治如果我們討論憲法一解釋類型的話就是在救治這個類型下面確實過去曾經在立法院在審議法案中就適用憲法的一有申請過大法官做成解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
173.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
179.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
不過剛剛我回答沈委員的時候也有提到那在新制沒有這樣的一個解釋類型所以在新制沒有那麼在舊制的話可能曾經有過一件可是呢在這個一件的這個案子裡面後來因為憲法訴訟法修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
191.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
218.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
憲法訴訟法修法然後也特別的將所謂的憲法一役的事件憲法一役的案子可以作為憲法訴訟標的這個類型把它刪除掉了所以就是說在我們憲法訴訟法現在第一條裡面所名列的六款的訴訟類型裡面其實是不包含我們現在講的所謂預防性的不作為訴訟或預防性訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
219.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
244.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那麼這是憲訴法裡面很清楚的規定我想副秘書長跟廳長應該都很清楚知道憲法訴訟法跟行政訴訟法和民事訴訟法這是一個完全不同的訴訟法規那麼彼此是不是可以互相的援引甚至類推適用憲法訴訟法又再類推適用到民事訴訟法或行政訴訟法的規定請問你們覺得適合嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
249.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
263.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們講這個我可以說明嗎是跟我們說明那因為憲法訴訟法在第46條它確實有一個可以明文在性質不抵觸的情況下明文准用行政訴訟法那行政訴訟法因為它有 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
264.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
280.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
規定的部分很多都可以準用民事訴訟法所以純從法理上來看的話確實在憲法訴訟的案件裡面如果大法官在個案認為性質不抵觸的話有些事項是可以透過準用行政訴訟法甚至有可能再準用民事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
285.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
302.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
其實在憲法訴訟法裡面它確實是有規定有一些條文它是可以去准用行政訴訟法的規定可是這個可以一再的擴大那個准用的概念嗎然後從憲法訴訟法准用行政訴訟法行政訴訟法又准用到民事訴訟法我認為這樣子的一個解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
306.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
327.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
已經是超越我們原來憲法訴訟法裡面的相關的規定立法者並沒有授權憲法法庭有這麼大的解釋權可以去准用或是類推適用其他的法規那麼本席想要講的就是說其實從許中立院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
329.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
334 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
當時他主張司法積極主義認為說這個大法官可能在很多的涉及到法規的解釋上面可以更積極的更大膽的作為但是這個情況其實也構成了後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
346.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
364.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
被很多法律界的專家學者們批評現在大法官造法的問題很嚴重從憲判制8號到憲判制9號一個是十字廢紙判決跟國會改革法案裡面其實都可以看到大法官已經從司法積極主義進階成為司法激進主義了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
369.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
389.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
大法官其實本來應該是作為最後的手段他應該要這個司法要節制啊可是在這幾個判決裡面甚至在先前有好幾個憲法判決裡面其實都已經看到大法官他已經積極太過於介入整個立法裁量的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
391.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
414.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這簡直是這根本就是當成是立法者的這個太上皇了然後指導立法機關如何的去立法那甚至這個不應該是屬於立法不應該是屬於司法憲法裁判裡面的應該解釋的這個項目那麼大法官也都積極的介入我認為其實這是一個很危險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
416.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
441.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
很危險的一個情況我們在過去可能在我們的法治還不是很安定很競權的時候大法官能夠展現相當程度的司法積極主義是沒有問題的可是當他已經逾越了作為一個司法者他的這個要謹守的司法自治這樣的原則之後他所造成的後果是非常非常危險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
443.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
465.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
當然釋憲權這個是立法委員的權利人民的權利 機關的權利可是關鍵就在於說該不該受理該不該進而做成憲法判決或者是暫時處分的裁定這個關鍵點還是在大法官那我現在想要進一步的再請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
472.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
490.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
副秘書長的就是我們知道其實上禮拜因為行政院他有提出復議了那麼他們這個復議理由洋洒洒的就認為這個行政院認為治案難行我想請教就是當時他們提出的復議案到底有沒有跟司法院事前有進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
492.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
500.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這部分並沒有對 完全沒有接觸所以所謂的摯愛難行基本上行政院他自己認為限訴法的通過可能會摯愛難行 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
502.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
522.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這部分我們不便表示評論好但是司法院基本上是並沒有參與這個復議案的這個這個理由的這個撰寫好那麼我想另外我要問的就是說其實在我們這次審查限訴法的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
523.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
544.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
本期是當時在第一會期跟第二會期都有提出限訴法的草案可是我自始至終我沒有看到司法院對這兩個法案有提出任何的對案頂多是在進行專案報告時候認為可能會造成這個憲法法庭有一些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
546.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
569.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個可能又回到過去的體制可能會覺得說有不太適合執行執法就是在憲法法庭裁判的時候可能會造成某種程度的困難度那麼可是如果說限訴法對於憲法法庭對司法院是這麼重要的話為什麼在當時這個法案審查過程當中司法院卻沒有提出對案是不是司法院消極怠惰 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
573.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
592.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
本院那個一貫的立場呢是認為當時就是修法前的那個憲法訴訟法呢並沒有至愛難行就是那個法條事實上是運作非常順暢的所以本院是建議不要修法因此沒有提出對案好所以呢就是你們都認為說這個司法院的立場認為原來性訴法都沒有任何問題運作非常適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
597.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
621.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那麼但是現在就是當立法委員他代表後面的背後的民意然後我們也看到了很多的法律學者認為之前的限訴法就是出現了大的問題變成少數的大法官就可以做成憲法裁判而你們也知道其實我們這個工黨的委員在這個案子上面也非常的重視也認為這個必須要修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
621.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
640.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
可是如果說你們當時就看到或是有發現有一些問題的時候你們沒有積極的去提出對岸我覺得這就是一個司法太過於消極了你們也可以提出你們的看法哪個地方其實可以再斟酌再修正但是卻都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
641.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
666.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這樣做等到我們法律案通過之後那麼現在看起來反正就是大法官他按受理就受理那他這個要怎麼樣做成決定就全部都由大法官去決定我剛剛還聽到周睿雄委員他提出一個很有趣的一個看法他認為說這個憲法訴訟法因為它主要是規範的是大法官所以規範的是司法院所以司法院院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
668.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
691.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
應該要代表司法院要提起憲法訴訟只要司法院院長迴避就好請問副秘書長跟廳長你們同意這樣子的看法嗎我們尊重莊委員的說法司法院未來會不會提釋憲呢這個我沒有辦法代表院長發言如果院長真的提釋憲的話所以按照莊銳雄委員的意見他就要迴避對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
694.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
717.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
如果不是法定迴避是有 而院長如果有自行迴避的話由全體大法官決定是否迴避所以大法官可以不迴避 司法院院長提出釋憲案也可以不迴避我現在要講的就是憲法訴訟法它本來就是在規範憲法法庭審理程序的一個這次的修法它是規範憲法法庭的審理程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
718.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
734.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
它基本上就是一個涉及大法官自己的我們所謂的涉及法案在這個涉及法案當中大法官如果說還可以求員監裁判自己針對這個憲法訴訟法去做出裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
735.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
748.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
宣告這個修法是違憲的或者是說做成這個凍結憲法訴訟法的這樣的一個裁定我認為是極為不妥的大法官全體難道不應該迴避嗎這就是規範他們自己啊你們的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
757.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
772.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
跟涉及事務有關的部分其實如果我們以過去的4-601號有關於大法官被刪除專業家籍那當時這個也是大法官的涉及事務那確實外界也有在討論到底大法官要不要迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
773.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
798.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那這個部分後來大法官在他解釋理由書裡面有很清楚的說明那其實所有的國家的憲政爭議那最後能夠做出最後一錘定音的答案在我國的憲法體制設計上就是大法官所以遇到任何憲政問題大法官遇到無可迴避的時候仍然應該與裁判這就是現在司法公信力為什麼蕩然無存的一個很重要的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
799.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
825.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
明明憲法訴訟法它就涉及到整個憲法法庭的組織運作大法官的組成這個基本上就很典型就是由立法者他們可以就這樣子的一個組織架構去進行這個相關的立法的規範可是呢現在大法官只要是不符合這個司法院自己提出來的法案那麼只要是立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
826.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
846.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
委員立法院所通過的跟憲法訴訟法相關的規定就認為這個是違憲的規定那麼從司法院之前的報告然後到乃至於現在看到民進黨委員還有賴政府他們的見解幾乎都是如此這個基本上已經是嚴重的侵犯到立法的裁量權 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
848.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
875.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那麼就大法官的這個審理的程序標準是不是要拉高門檻要不要拉高我們在先前已經非常多次的場合裡面就講這跟西方國家的門檻是接近的我們甚至都還沒有德國、法國、韓國這些門檻高我們這次還後來是採取了一個比較中高度門檻的這個捷克的法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
876.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
896.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
在這樣的一個情況之下如果說司法院還真的自己提起釋憲司法院院長還可以自己說他要參與審判那我真的認為整個的憲法法庭真的會讓人家瞧不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
899.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
913.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
大法官的公信力會蕩然無存這個案子是一個非常指標性的案子全民都在看憲法法庭會怎麼做我們來看一下在昨天的聯合報 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
914.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
937.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
上面其實有兩位我們在法學和實務界的一個重量級的學者一位是前司法院副院長蘇永青蘇老師還有另外一位是董寶成董老師看看人家多麼的語重心長在呼籲司法院在呼籲憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
943.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
968.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
不要這個不要冒進啊大法官不要冒進陷入整個政治鬥爭之中其實我看了這兩篇教授的文章我感觸很多就是曾幾何時大法官竟然成為全民的公敵 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
970.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
985.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
大家知道嗎現在人民已經不相信大法官了不相信大法官會做成公正的裁判看看我們現在到目前為止憲法法庭受理的477件人民的事件案件當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
986.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1003.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這些案子大法官有積極的去審理嗎 沒有只要是這個政府行政院提起的事件案絕對第一優先先審然後拖了這個三個月半年之後做出這個判決有贏得人民的掌聲嗎也沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1006.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1032.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
反而还引起大家对于大法官这个他是否公平公正能够独立的裁判能够超越政治的这裁判都起了很大的质疑回到上一页看看苏永青老师怎么说吧对苏永青老师说希望行政院不要把宪法法庭当工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1034.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1060.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
也一再強調在大法官在這次憲法訴訟法的修正過程當中當時的修法理由就很清楚的把憲法一一的審查程序就刪除了早就不在現在的憲法訴訟法裡面了也就是不會針對所謂憲法一的案子去進行去進行審理它已經不是屬於市格的這個憲法訴訟標的 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1067.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1094.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
講到這裡我其實很感慨就是明明司法機關就應該要了解整個憲政權力分立原則要知道司法的最後性司法機關的節制更要尊重立法形成自由尊重立法者的立法權對不對這是在不得已的情況之下真的窮盡了其他的解釋還是認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1097.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1116.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個大法官還是認為說立法者所定的法律是有問題的才能宣告違憲啊所以為什麼我們一直在強調所謂的核限性解釋說也就是只要針對我們的法律裡面有任何一個理由是可以支持這個法律是核限的大法官就要採那個理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1117.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1144.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
可是在上次我們的國會改革釋憲案裡面完全沒有看到大法官是基於過去上來解釋的一貫性的原則合憲性解釋原則來進行解釋只要他們想怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋這個已經是讓很多的憲法學者研究憲法訴訟的學者們都認為大法官是怎麼了 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1146.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1168.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
現在真的是完全不見大法官的風骨向政治靠攏這是極其可悲的事情話說回來這次的憲法訴訟法修正通過之後雖然我們明定大法官出席的人數要有10人 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1170.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1183.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那麼眼前當然現在總統還沒有正式的公佈這個法律這個法律如果一旦公佈之後請問大法官是不是真的沒有其他事可做了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1186.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1213.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
跟委員說明 如同我剛剛跟其他委員所說明的就是有關於受理案件或者統一解釋法律命令這個部分因為現行規定並沒有被修正所以我們目前仍然會持續以三個審查庭來進行案件受理與否的審查那如果有統一解釋法律命令的部分那也可以在目前的人數下做決定那至於其他的案件類型能不能運作這是屬於審判事項 我們就不便表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1214.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1221.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
依照我們現在憲法訴訟法新修正過的法案大概就是要做成實體判決還有宣告法律違憲然後暫時處分等等這些類型才需要這個要有一定的出席人數的門檻還有做成憲法裁判或是裁定的這個門檻所以代表大法官他還是可以有很多的事情是做的並不是說是完全憲法法庭就被癱瘓 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1243.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1261.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我想今天已經有很多委員其實也不斷的在重申講憲法法庭癱瘓的這個用語是很惡劣的憲法訴訟法的修正最重要的就是要讓整個的憲法的審理程序更加嚴謹那麼為什麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1265.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1290.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們只要求各級法院的法官在審理程序的時候要重視程序正義那大法官既然釋憲的時候就可以不重視程序正義不重視程序的合法性 既然已經要憲法訴訟法通過就是十個人 最少的出席人數就是十個人那宣告法律違憲就是九個人 就按照那樣的程序去做這有什麼至暗難行的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1292.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1317.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我實在是不懂就是大法官憲法法庭在想什麼我真的是希望他們不要把最後自己的一點尊嚴或最後一點的公信力會毀在這次的民進黨委員所提出來的事先案上面不該受理的就不該受理的該盡速駁回的就盡速駁回 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1318.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1347.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
不要隨著執政黨隨機起舞這個是我最後對司法院對憲法法庭的呼籲希望副秘書長還有廳長可以帶回去給代理院長知悉那麼司法院還是應該要謹守自己的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1348.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1364.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
如果真的如莊瑞雄委員所說的自己提起視線我認為這是會一笑大方而且不僅如此還會被全民看不起以上 謝謝 |