| IVOD_ID |
15876 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15876 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024042658 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「失控的正義1─又要我們『共體時艱』！如何簡化偵查、審判訴訟程序與書類製作及人力增補」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-02T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-02T13:52:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:22:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fce1784ed6585ee25e9b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4072ca1b09a27c3da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「失控的正義1─又要我們『共體時艱』！如何簡化偵查、審判訴訟程序與書類製作及人力增補」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 13:52:00 |
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好 各位大家早安 我們現在開始開會那我們今天是舉行失控的正義又要我們共體時艱．如何簡化偵查、審判訴訟程序與書類製作及人力增補的公聽會首先我們介紹出席的專家學者按照簽到的順序介紹第一位 蕭益紅律師蕭律師周沛琦法官 |
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2224.477 |
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2245.222 |
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黃士偉律師 張化地院前法官李李祥助理教授圖秀琳法官李聖傑副教授林達檢察官紀凱峰法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2254.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2281.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
黃毓豐副教授林玉順理事長柯格中教授江世銘教授許振賢院長蕭永昌警察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2286.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2314.756 |
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同時我們現在介紹機關代表司法院秘書長、吳三龍秘書長、楊浩青廳長、周梅芳廳長、陳信齊副廳長、陳奕宜廳長、謝敬惠廳長、高玉順廳長、何君豪處長、陳美童處長、法務部蔡京祥部長、 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2319.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2334.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
蔡碧仲政次檢美惠副司長邢太昭總長行政院人事總署副人事長懷旭全序部法規司司長蕾成 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2336.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2364.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
行政院主計總處、預算處、檢任視察理培員、民間司改會常務董事林永聰、常務執行委員蔡學儀先跟各位報告跟委員會及各位在場報告人事總處的處長因為開刀所以他有打電話過來說他因為開刀住院請假所以今天是由副人事長到 |
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2366.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2391.224 |
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好那今天的會議主要是討論司法官這一段時間的工作量負荷過重以及制度上面是不是有所需要修改那院檢的長官都非常重視這一次的會議所以院檢長官都有親自到庭在這邊先跟各位報告這件事情好現在我們請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱 |
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2393.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2399.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
討論提綱1現行司法院或法務部就提升偵審效能及減輕基層工作負荷等議題 |
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2400.785 |
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2425.45 |
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政策面有何待檢討及精進之處2─就精實偵查及審判訴訟程序在法制、組織架構、人員配置、作業效能方面有何具體建議或測定作為3─針對司法院及法務部進行書類簡化等政策現行具體成效如何有無應檢討及改善之處4─如何再強化訴訟外紛爭解決機制宣讀完畢 |
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2434.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2460.992 |
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在邀請各位發言之前有幾點說明首先我們邀請學者專家發言發言順序依據簽到的先後順序如果有需要提前發言請先告知主席台我們會視情況酌情調整本院委員依照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場我們會安排參差發言最後再請政府機關代表發言針對學者意見及委員的意見加以回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2462.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2463.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2464.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2493.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
委會者到發言台發言那我右邊是學者專家、列席機關代表的發言那左邊就是立法院委員的發言台那公聽會主要是聽取各位學者專家的意見所以學者專家發言時間為10分鐘那本院委員發言時間5分鐘那會後還是請機關能夠把學者所提的意見然後能夠加以書面或是現在當場回覆都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2497.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2513.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
先向公聽會出席的學者專家報告因為今天是否行政院的院會所以我們等一下我們先請法務部的蔡部長先行報告然後再派員代理出席公聽會那我們先請法務部蔡部長報告時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2539.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2566.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席、各位委員、各位專家、學者、大家早很高興我們司法及法制委員會召開這樣的一個公聽會也謝謝邀請我們法務部來聆聽各位專家、學者的意見我個人也非常的重視所以我在等一下行政院運會要開始之前我也先到會來簡單的說明我們的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2569.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2586.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
也對各位專家學者表示謝意與敬意那法務部等一下蔡政次還會更加的詳細說明我們的同仁也會仔細的聆聽各位的意見把他帶回去再做一個中整 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2586.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2606.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
如果可以立即可行的我們也會馬上來做事實上我們法務部也有成立一個合理化檢查官工作負擔的研議小組已經成立一段時間也都在進行那我們主要就是針對現在的工作上有沒有更能簡化的措施來研擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2608.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2619.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
來執行,譬如我們現在管考要加以鬆綁,讓檢察官更有充裕的時間來處理案件。那對於各項 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2620.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2640.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
案件的立稿我們也重新檢視來制定供檢察官來使用也從簡化書類裡面來著手聽取大家的意見以後不過不管是立稿或是簡化書類也要重視到當事人的權益也不能忽略掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2641.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2659.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
最後我們也重視科技的辦案我們也提出了科技偵查保障法的草案到行政院那邊審查應該很快的就能夠完成審議送到大院來至於還有配合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2661.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2673.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
通訊監察保障法也同樣一起來做修正我想這個都是有利於讓檢察官的辦案上更科技化、更科學化也更有效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2675.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2703.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那至於人力的增補我們事實上早已就提出了這個法院組織法的修正希望能夠法制上做檢察官助理的一些條文但是很可惜都一直沒有完成立法程序但是面臨到現在打詐的案件這麼的暴增所以我們就很努力的向行政院先爭取到臨時的人力檢察官助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2704.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2723.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
一百名現在已經在運作也獲得了基層檢察官的肯定那我想這個效果很好我們的繼續爭取今年馬上就會再增補一百五十名行政院已經同意了已經發文給我們所以程序還在進行當中很快就能夠實踐交給各地檢他們來做這個領選那至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2728.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2743.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
聽色改善,我們也是全力以赴,包括新北地檢署,我們現在已經獲得了行政院的同意新北地檢署跟新北地院一起在過去的土層彈藥庫要重新來興建 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2746.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2774.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那至於彰化地檢也是已經馬上就要完工了那臺中的檢查大樓包括臺中高分檢、臺中地檢也已經動工了所以對於工作環境的改善我們也不遺餘力那因為時間的關係那詳細的情形等一下蔡政次還會再做進一步的說明那我們同仁也會詳細的記載各位提出的寶貴意見那以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2775.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2775.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2801.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2822.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我想今天院檢的長官都有來應該都是蠻重視我們要怎麼盡快去改善這個問題我覺得這是挽救士氣的一個最重要方式因為待會許正賢院長需要先離開所以我們先請許正賢院長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2839.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2864.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主席各位委員各位先進有關今天的議題其實是一個幾十年來在司法不管是審判或者是檢察界一直在討論跟一直在研究問題所以我想今天有這麼多位學者專家到場一定有非常多具體寶貴的意見那我今天因為時間關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2866.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2866.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2882.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2904.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
標題叫做荒謬的角落他主要的重點是提到法官長時間超時的工作結果司法公信力這麼低這到底是什麼問題他覺得從這個角度看做法官的工作實際是一個荒謬的工作大家付出這麼多但是得到的回饋這麼少 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2906.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2927.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我從這個地方當時就深深有感而發真的他提到的是過去跟現在司法界不管是審判或檢察界的一個問題我個人在司法界我擔任法官十幾年後來有一位學長說我是司法界的逃兵我今天就用一個逃兵的角度來 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2929.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2955.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
說明一下我對今天我們這個議題的看法那我當然知道有一句話就是危機就是一種轉機我看到的司法問題從過去到現在我認為有一個共通現象就是欠缺效能沒有效率效能其實簡單來講就是是不是做對的事情效率簡單來講是不是以對的方法做事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2957.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2980.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我認為要探討所有問題之前要有正確的觀念沒有正確觀念後面做的這些滋味末節或細微的改變呢其實效率都是有限可能都是事倍功半所以效率我這邊講的其實就是你要有好的方法把工作做好所以效率講的是重視方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2981.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2990.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
效能講的是你要選擇好的任務達成目標所以效能這件事情簡單來講是要重視結果你要選對目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2992.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3017.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那著名的管理學大師彼得杜拉克他也用一個非常簡單的方式就是我剛剛表達的效率是以對的方法做事效能是做對的事情當兩個沒辦法兼顧的時候杜拉克說要先著重效能再設法提高效率也就是要先做對的事情對的事情目標選對了你才能夠用正確的方法做好事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3020.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3041.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這位是德國一位學者後來曾經擔任聯邦司法部的部長他提過說在現代法治國家當中司法部門或法院管理不僅應該重視效能做對的事情同時也要強調效率所以沒有重視效能也缺乏效率的司法部門他當然是一個很有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3043.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3043.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3069.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3069.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3090.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3108.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
主要是一省地方法院的法官他的工作型態做一個調查這個大概是我們國內在審判體系第一個比較用一個實證的方法去做研究的他得到一個結論就是說大概法官花了將近4成的時間在撰寫判決書 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3109.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3109.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3128.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3153.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
但是畢竟我們這改革要有一些成果自己講好不見得好外部的中立單位能夠說好這可能是一個比較重要的指標每年我們的國發會都會公告瑞士管理發展學院就是IMD它對全世界各國家的一個評比其中跟法律有關的其實就這一項在歷年來我觀察了近20年來不管是新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3155.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3156.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
新加坡始終名列前茅 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3180.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3208.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
重新思考法官的角色重新確定司法運作方式這是一個非常重要的觀念很多改革如果沒有切中要害的話我認為那個都是隔絕騷擾或是成效有限那為什麼特別提到新加坡不只他是IMD被評列為世界頂尖的司法改革的成效呢他在1990年的時候他的地方法院就數據法院要等一件案子開庭大概要等兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3209.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3210.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3231.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3259.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
司法環境他評價說新加坡初級法案的運作成效是世界級可以成為以開發跟開發中國家進行司法現代化的楷模那我們也可以另外看到一個數據一般公眾對他的滿意度跟美國還有美國的加州法案比他是遠遠高於這些美國的法院那我再重複一次法治國家的司法人物必須要做對的事情這個是優先一個目標還有以對的方法做事 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3261.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3288.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那我也想到說徐文榮先生有一個抽屜理論我非常的欣賞他說我們整理抽屜的時候都逐一個每一個每一個都去清去過濾花了很多時間如果用一個方法你先想好你抽屜裡面要找什麼東西你就直接去找你要找的東西那這個呢只要花兩成的心力你就可以把事情做好來那這個其實應用在我們很多做事的原則上我認為都很有啟發在管理學就有一個叫八十二十法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3289.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3290.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3312.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3312.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3328.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3328.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3348.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3358.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
一再強調一個觀念法官智慧不是在做精緻的判決書是在做出最好的判斷這個是我認為最最核心的觀念但是我們現在的現況不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3362.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3383.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
時間關係我很快講到底講了這麼多觀念跟我們今天會議有什麼關係如果簡單來講要解決的策略分成短中長期三個區段來看我認為我只提兩個重要方向因為我想在座的學者大家有更多寶貴的建議我只用我個人經驗跟我觀察到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3384.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3408.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
既然剛剛有關查到法官近4成的心力耗費在撰寫裁判書我也查了一下資料地方法院民事跟刑事案件的責服率就是沒有提起上訴的大概是各9成高院的責服率是5成刑事是6成這是一個很重要的數據讓我們看到說現在的司法體制它怎麼運作民眾的案件到法院裡面是怎麼運作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3410.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3411.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3430.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3449.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
如果各位想像地方法院有九成的案件他不上訴九成的案件只宣判結論這些民眾不上訴通通不用寫理由書我覺得的確可以呢一定程度或相當高的比例呢減輕法官負擔因為裁判書寫給上級審看的那另外一個就是增援的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3451.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3470.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我最後再講一個就是說只有在當事人聲明不符的時候才提出書面理由這個不是我獨創的在新加坡有這種先例在德國民事訴訟法也有這種先例所以這個不是我個人的創建這個是世界上我們在學習的一些國家他們有不管是英美法系或是大陸法系好我最後再講 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3471.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3471.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3486.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3508.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
判決如果沒有上訴 法官原則上不需要製作判決理由這個在一些先進國家都已經在做 這個不是我獨創那我認為這個是剛剛的實證資料很清楚的說這一部分判決書製作是法官他的負擔很高的比例所以如果這麼做的話 我認為這是一個結構性簡化 比那一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3509.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3523.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
判決書的白話文化要好得多這是一個我今天要提的重點我最後呢很感慨來講前幾天不幸墜樓的士林地院理法官是政大法學院優秀的校友 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3525.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3550.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我們非常誠切地希望李法官的離開能夠讓大家重視這個已經存在已久的問題一個法官在健全的審判環境裡面工作這個才是國家社會之福也才是人民的福氣很抱歉我今天占了各位一些時間希望我的見言能夠得到一些小小的回應 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3553.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3582.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好 謝謝院長那我這邊先做一個簡單的宣告就是我們今天的會議我們今天的公聽會 絕對不會只有一次因為本席這邊是假官出身的那我一定會就司法改革持續追查下去追蹤下去我不會說讓這個會議只開一次而且我們改革開始接下來一步一步我們還要去思考書記官的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3583.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3599.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
助理的部分事務官的部分以及行政人員法警的部分我覺得這個我也要求辦公室以及其他友善的立委同仁我們一步一步要追下去我們要讓司法有品質第一個你要先 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3600.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3623.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
讓他有合理的工作量在沒有合理工作量的情況下這個國家或這個社會對他要求司法品質那個是不應該的 也是騙人的現在已經超過正常負荷量太多了已經不是加班就可以做得完已經不是犧牲家庭就可以做得完所以我對這一系列的做法我自己是很有感好 那我們下一位我們請蕭義宏律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3637.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3660.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我建議的思考方向大概是三個第一個就是建議調整制度跟政策那我覺得這可能優於一些其他的部分比如說簡化書類處理方式我覺得這部分可能會先優於開發像自動產生書類這樣子的一個想法我後面再跟大家提到這個為什麼我會這樣認為那第二個就是我覺得就是說簡跟願這部分如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3661.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3661.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3680.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3702.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那第三個部分 呈如剛剛委員所提到的其實除了司法官的人力缺乏之外其實還有很多輔助人力的缺乏比如說像書記官我知道很多法院 很多的地檢署書記官其實都是不足的 而且是嚴重不足的還有像法警 他們工作量其實真的是很大的當然還可能需要有檢察官助理來協助檢察官做更多的一個偵查的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3704.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3727.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我的第一個部分其實我想後面很多先進都有提到關於這個職權處分的部分其實甲官有一個權限是可以做職權處分的在有罪的情況之下那這是我好幾年前做了一個統計的資料我們比較台灣跟德國的一個關於終結方式的一個比較我不知道現在的數據有沒有改變我這是過去的一個數據我們可以看到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3728.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3750.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
在德國他們有22.9%做的是一個違罪不起訴的方式相較於我們的職權處分職權的不起訴那這個部分的話其實我們台灣只有1.5%而已那在起訴的部分的話其實德國在起訴檢判的部分其實都比台灣來的低那我想這個部分不只是會降低檢案官的工作量 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3751.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3773.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
他也會降低到刑事庭法官的工作量因為這是源頭的部分所以我想第一個建議就是說強化職權處分的工人但是這個部分其實會有很多的問題存在就是說對甲官來講一個文化、一個政策的一個部分因為現行如果沒有告訴人同意的情況之下甲官其實往往不會給晚起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3774.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3774.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3790.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3811.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我建議是可以從政策上面可以鼓勵甚至可以要求檢察官在這個部分可以多強化職權處分的部分就一些輕罪的部分可以直接由檢察官做職權處分我覺得這個部分可能會讓很多案件其實在前端的部分可以結束不見得一定要到法院去走完他的刑事的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3812.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3832.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那第二部分其實也跟剛剛徐老師提到的一個想法一樣就是說可不可以直接給結論之後有爭議再來補理由那這個部分在民事訴訟裡面小額訴訟裡面可以直接給主文但是我們在檢察官的不起訴處分書裡面我們再怎麼一個檢縮還是會需要一個基本的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3833.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3856.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
所以這邊的建議就是說我們是不是可以給一個很簡要的理由的結論如果真的有在意的時候然後再補一個比較詳細的理由來讓告訴人可以針對裡面的這個理由來做爭執這部分其實可以參考像民俗文法的一個概念跟想法也是剛剛徐老師提到的一個其他國家的一個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3856.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3879.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那第二部分就是說其實我們一直在想說我們要自動產生像是酒駕、使用毒品的這樣子的一個書類如果我們把書類簡化到很簡化的話其實也不需要再產生這個書類了如果是一個罰單的話其實罰單上面不會寫太多的內容它只會說你哪一天抄訴你違反的是哪一個條文而已那我們的書類有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3880.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3901.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
做到這樣子就可以了不需要甲官真的在寫說他在哪一天哪一天喝了幾杯酒之後上路在什麼地方被攔下來然後知道這個事情然後有什麼樣的佐證好像也不見得一定需要如果這個事情可以調整一下的話我們在開發所謂的自動產生書類其實就可以不見得需要了因為他已經不需要到產生書類這樣的一個層級了 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3905.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3908.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
警察與檢察官是很重要的夥伴彼此之間有很多需要溝通的地方解訊是一個很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3924.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3948.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
很多的案件都需要解訟竊盜、酒駕、幫助詐欺這些聚眾賭博更是一個很可怕的事情因為一個聚眾賭博找到的這個嫌疑人可能來就十幾個人了他可能就癱瘓掉了整個內情的一個情況了那這問題後面有些先進會提到建議修法那我想提的是另外一個部分遠距視訊的功能其實在法務部這一次的裡面也有提到但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3949.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3974.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
但目前為止看起來的數字其實是比較低的就是說在視訊的一個統計裡面內情的案件跟非內情的案件其實都是蠻少數的一個地方那這部分其實涉及到整個資訊系統建置的架構怎麼樣跟警局可以有很充分的這些資訊的交換那這些事情其實是需要資訊基礎建設的即便在沒有修法的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3974.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3998.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
還是要解送的情況之下也可以透過視訊的方式來解決這些問題甚至有些相關的證人、告訴人、被害人如果在警局當中就可以讓他們跟檢察官做一個筆錄的話檢察官當覺得有需要的時候這也可以讓不只是我們的民眾可以減省很多的一些時間的耗費也可以讓檢察官有更多的彈性可以更快的收集到他所需要的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4000.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4018.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
往下走就是說AI一直會是現在好像我們一個解方好像我們用AI可以解決甲官的痛苦但我覺得可能這是需要商榷的地方第一個就是說我們可能需要先思考AI可以做到什麼地步其實在2012年的時候法國部就已經曾經做過了文字探勘系統也就是一個書類產生的一個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4021.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4038.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
當時的想法其實跟現在沒有太大的差別我想應該都是一樣的想法適用的案件類型也沒有太大的差別但是這個問題會有一個問題存在就是說對於簡單的案件來講它不是檢察官痛苦所在檢察官未必會想用在困難的案件來說我們現在可能做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4039.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4064.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以我的建議是如果我們有經費的話我建議是回到我們的資訊系統回到我們的基礎建設回到我們的檢調到法院的這樣子一個基礎的建設有data才有辦法發展AI也許不是現在法官跟假官的AI時代未必是現在已經到來了可能還需要累積更多資料我們才有辦法在未來發展AI |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4066.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4091.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以我的建議是這樣子檢警的徵訊系統是目前欠缺的警察要申請一張調取票他要完成內部文件之後帶著他的紙本到地檢署然後在地檢署附近找車位停好車之後再去找內刑假官、懲罰假官審核之後再到法院去找法官這個中間等待為了一張調取票他可能需要半天的時間來申請這張調取票 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4093.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4120.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這事情雖然不是地檢署的檢察官的耗費但偵查人力的耗費就是可能就是偵查案件當中的成本如果他可以做更多的偵查的話其實也會降低檢察官或法院最後的工作的一個量所以我建議說如果可以完成檢警的資訊的基礎建設的話可以降低很多偵查過程當中所需要的成本那這件事情是我們現在可能欠缺的我們現在沒有投入到這個資源在這邊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4122.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4144.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那當然我剛剛提到所謂遠距視訊它也是含在這個所謂的一個基礎建設範圍裡面那這個事情其實會比很多酷炫的一些想法我覺得是更實質更有效果的它需要投入的資源也許不會立竿見影但是卻是資源整合的一個基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4147.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4168.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那我想在對獎官來講警察會是他一個很重要的夥伴他的一個品質如果沒有到很好的話其實對獎官來講他就是一個辛苦的開始那可是夥伴其實是需要互相的磨合的所以說對獎官來講可能警察是他的當時就是有點像是一個開發的一個開始的一個角色如果說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4169.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4196.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
地檢署可以提供一些SOP給警察彼此之間可以互相磨合知道說假官需要什麼樣的一個資料來做調查那這些人力也許會是假官最好的夥伴那當然如果說相關的數位資料數位檔案可以提供給地檢署地檢署起訴之後也可以把原生的數位檔案提供給刑事法院降低現在我們在電子卷證掃描的成本那這當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4197.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4223.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
不只是法官、假官的過勞問題而已還有就是說還有就是其他的一個輔助上面的一些行政事務都會有降低那我想我們現在的電子證還是在起訴之後由地檢署來做掃描之後交付給法院法院再接力的在審理當中去做一些掃描的一個交換的過程但這些其實都是一個無形的成本那回到源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4224.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4244.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這是一個困難的事情從法務部司法院到警政署之間的相互溝通協調要讓整個資訊系統可以互相整合這是一個非常困難需要很多時間需要很多人力跟經費的事情它不會是一個小小專案可以解決的問題那我的建議是這不需要是一個可以思考的方向好謝謝蕭律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4251.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4261.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們現在補充到場的學術專家李政華理事長接下來我們請周佩琪法官發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4269.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4289.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
主席、委員、還有長官、機關代表、同仁、先進大家好我是高等法院的民事庭法官周珮淇我今天就是受主席的邀請來這邊替大家報告一下是說主要我是想要在一開始的時候分享我們民事庭法官的一個工作跟生活的一個現實的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4290.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4317.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
最後再來提出我個人這個從事司法官工作十幾年來在第一線的民視庭所看到的一些問題那提出的一些修正或者是調整的一個建議來講那我今天給大家的一個就是一個簡報的一個標題你知道自己扛著自己有多累嗎那這句話並不是我自己發想的而是我引用電視劇不夠善良的我們的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4319.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4325.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
臺詞中的一段對話這個對話其實也是呼應著我們在前一陣子我們失去了一個非常優秀的同仁來引發的一個白花的紀念事件以這樣子的報告來獻給他以及所有堅定向前不改初心的司法同仁們接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4344.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4361.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這句話也是引用同樣的一個電視劇那其實就是我個人在這十幾年的司法官生活以來一個非常就是貼切的寫照就是說我是這麼的努力我單槍匹馬連一個問我今天好不好的人都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4362.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4389.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
其實我沒有投機我也沒有取巧我是靠自己的實力忙到沒有朋友那剛剛才知道我的人生原來是負面教材我覺得我在這十幾年當中我非常努力去完成這個工作給我的這個相關的進度但是我卻忙到讓自己沒有朋友那單槍匹馬過著我日復一日勞累而沉重的司法官生活那 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4390.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4416.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那我個人的背景在我踏入司法圈之前其實我已經做了7年的律師所以我其實是在30歲左右身心、狀態成熟而且有一定的社會工作經驗來到這樣子的一個司法官的一個領域做著這個定分指針相關的一個對我來說很有使命感的一個工作可是我周而復始所過的生活卻是 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4418.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4446.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
接下來跟各位報告一下我每一周應該要做的事情有兩個半天的準備期日我們二審是民事全面合議所以還要再加一個言辭辯論的合議期日你每一次開庭之前你至少要有半天的月卷時間我講的都是至少基本以高院民事庭來講你常常會碰到一些重大、繁雜或是矚目的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4446.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4462.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
其實你看一個卷可能就半天就不見了這樣子那接下來我們除了做這些事情以外我們還有旅刊期日跟調解期日那旅刊就是要到外面現場去看現場的地形地貌跟各種狀態的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4464.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4465.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
審理單的批閱也就是說民事事件常常有很多寒茶寒巡跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4490.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4499.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
建定、調查等等的這個文稿都必須要由我們去做初步的整理以後發給這個書記官讓書記官發函出去做相關的後續的作業那這個工作來講如果你碰到的是一個工程或醫療鑑定的話它的問題絕對不是短短兩三行可以就是解決可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4511.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4536.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
可能這個相關的一個準備工作就是高達好幾頁這個需要相當時間做相關的整理那另外來講就是新收案件的審閱以及處理就是新案一來的話我們必須要就是仔細的翻閱跟思索它的應該進行的狀況才能夠將這個進行單批出去如果我們沒有把進行單批出去的話那後端書記官就沒有辦法做相關的作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4539.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4555.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
當事人當然也不可能到庭來這個做開庭跟後續的這個說明這樣子那接下來就是法律爭議的查詢及研究因為法官其實真的是一個活到老學到老的一個行業就是這個法律跟爭議一直不停的有相關的修正跟很多樣的一個研究的問題需要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4561.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4561.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4582.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4607.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那其實我算一算這些時間全部扣掉的話其實我真正能夠在座位上好好寫判決跟裁定的時間其實只有一個工作天而已那這個都是基本的估算而已所以就是說其實我們真的不是說那個就是你怎麼不好好利用時間你不好好提供效率而是我們例行性的這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4607.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4608.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我從2011年分發以來我就是待在桃園 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4623.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4649.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
在桃園地院109年的時候到高院民事庭我這十幾年來一直都是辦民事從來沒有辦過其他類型的事務在桃園地院民事庭的話我每一個月要完成判決及裁定合計25到40件才能夠保持收支平衡我在高院民事庭的話我每一個月要完成判決及裁定合計12到14件才能夠保持收支平衡看起來數字是減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4651.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4651.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4668.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4684.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我每一個月要完成8件的訴訟判決每一份至少15到20頁起跳所以我用一個可以用來寫裁判的工作日再加上有加班費的加班時數因為我們現在的現行狀態是每個月1萬元左右的加班費 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4691.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4710.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
換算的話 比較就是看每一個法官的級距跟時薪換算的話 之前的法官可能大概20個小時如果很資深的法官可能只有12到13個小時是有加班費的話以這個一個工作天跟有加班費的加班時數其實我只能夠完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4711.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4711.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4728.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4737.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
可以寫判決的工作日跟有加班費的加班時數我根本寫不出來根本沒有辦法完成所以我必須要用額外的時間去填補它那為什麼我要這麼盡力的用額外的時間去填補它 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4745.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4760.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
是因為我希望達到收支平衡的結果我希望我每一個月都能見到一次當事人也就是我每一次開庭的展期都希望能夠壓在一個月到一個半月以內因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4762.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4774.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
民事訴訟的精華是希望推行集中審理制度你如果一個案件三個月才見到當事人一次那當事人跟律師在上次講什麼的相關的爭點或不爭執事項到這次來講你可能都要重新的查閱跟回憶來講這個其實是拖延訴訟進度蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4784.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4801.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以我希望在收支平衡的狀態之下我一個月能夠見到當事人一次在一個有效率的狀況之下能夠把這個案件在合情合理的時間內競速去終結所以我必須要利用我個人這個下班後的時間去完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4802.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4803.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
製作及審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4823.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4843.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那我的工作時間來講的話就是非常日復一日那曾經我在高院民事庭的話大概每個每兩到三週就是會有一天要睡在辦公室因為我根本就是寫不完我沒有辦法安排沒有辦法就是在我預定的審理進度之下把工作做完所以我只好加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4843.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4851.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
大家颱風日可能會很高興但是法官會很焦躁因為如果那天開庭要取消的話我們會想說我們既定要演變終結的案件沒有辦法處理那如果不是開庭日的話我們是高興多出完整的一天可以寫判決我們都是來加班的這樣子齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4862.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4885.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那我剛剛引用的那些電視劇的精劇其實不是因為我有去看那個電視而是我去看YT頻道上說什麼幾分鐘可以看完什麼劇所以我只能半小時去看完那個劇的精華片然後來調解、舒緩我的身心這樣子那在民視庭法官給大家的一些建議來講我們希望是說我們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4888.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4904.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
就是調整這個我們的專業加給或加班費那如果沒有辦法限量的分案的話希望能夠就工作日跟有加班費的加班時數去定定合理的結案量標準那如果已經超過這個標準的話應該不可以為結案超過數量過多為由來評定不良好 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4909.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4916.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那希望能夠至少在再審事件來採強制的律師代理因為第三審訴訟事件都要採強制律師代理了再審是對於確定事件的翻盤來講你為什麼不採律師強制代理呢接下來的話上訴第三審的送標的價額應該是不是可以檢討修正了因為我們的150萬是在91年實施制定的那現在已經過了20幾年是不是能夠應該要調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4938.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4943.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
調整這個150萬上訴第三審的價額那有裁判費的徵收部分如果全面調高我知道不可能但是分割公務事件是不是可以考慮看看呢因為我們的77條之11跟80條之1其實是一個矛盾的規定我們是以原告可以得到的利益去做徵收裁判費的價額但是在訴訟負擔的時候我們又說因為原告只是幫大家起訴而已所以這個裁判費還是要由全體公務人一應有 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4967.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4967.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4986.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5007.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
費用要由全體一應有部分比例分擔這個邏輯上是真的很奇怪這樣那法院也收到了非常多分割共有物的案件他們都是故意移轉持份怎麼千萬分之一然後叫這個人當原告來起訴結果結果這個兩照共有人高達一千多個人我們光那個郵費郵費一次就要計掉十幾萬這樣子齁這樣那還有宋達的規定因為宋達的話有什麼主觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5012.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5012.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
謝謝周法官 接下來我們請黃士偉律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5043.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5067.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
主席委員在座的各位長官各位貴賓大家好我是黃士偉律師我先簡單自我介紹一下我從101年開始分發到彰化地方法院那我在那邊擔任了10年的法官工作那最後因為健康因素不得不辭職那在辭職之後的每一天其實我都覺得非常後悔因為我一直在想我是不是不應該離開這麼一個我打從心底就熱愛的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5068.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5080.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
直到今天這是第一次我覺得我當時做的決定可能是正確的因為要不是因為我離開我可能根本不會有機會我也根本不會有時間站在這裡為血汗司法的議題發聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5085.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5106.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我知道今天這段影片可能會變成影片在網路上流傳或留下記錄所以我對話的對象不會是這個小房間裡的這些長官們我要訴求的對象是這個社會所有的社會大眾所以我必須要花一點時間來跟所有的社會大眾說明到底是什麼造就了邪和司法要喚起整個社會大眾對這個議題的重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5110.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5134.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
可能大家會覺得說就算案件越來越多人力越來越少那案件就慢慢辦不就好了嗎那我必須要跟大家講大家一定聽過一句話就是遲來的正義不是正義也因為這句話所以我們司法院設有一個就是以辦案期限為核心的管考制度那所有的案件都會依照它的類型不同定有不同長短的這個辦案期限 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5135.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5160.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
你可能接著就會問,案件辦不完又會怎麼樣?那我跟大家報告一下,只要案件沒有在期限內辦完,它就會變成所謂的遲延案件那遲延案件會有怎麼樣的結果呢?第一個,即使這個遲延是有正當理由的遲延,你也必須要不斷地定期上簽證跟上級報告說這個理由還存在那對每天我們都已經忙到沒有任何時間的法官來說,這個真的是非常的浪費時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5161.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5182.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那接著他還會有什麼影響那除了所謂的送自律﹑職務監督這些之外我們法官每一年還會有一個所謂的職務評定那職務評定有一點類似所謂公務員的管考那一旦你被打不良好的未打良好的話那不僅會影響一個法官的晉級會影響他拿不到獎金更重要的是對每一個認真辦法官來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5183.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5211.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
他可能就會影響他一輩子的名譽對每一個認真辦案的法官來說即使我們的案件變得越來越多即使我們人力越來越少只要我們還有一口氣我們就會繼續撐著把每一個案件在想辦法趕在期限內把這個案件給處理掉那所以我要很明確的告訴大家來自辦案期限的壓力就是造就血汗司法的真正原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5213.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5219.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我想聽到這裡大家可能會想說那如果鬆綁辦案期限的話那法官是不是就會天天打混? |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5220.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5246.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那我在當法官的時候有聽過一句話這句話叫做是天下沒有結不掉的案件只有你不想結的案件我一開始以為這句話意思是說天下無難事只怕有心人只要你花出夠多的時間沒有一個案件是結不掉的但其實我在實務界待久了之後才知道這句話有一個更深一層的含義就是其實只要你夠敢再困難的案件都可以用最簡單的方式把它處理掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5247.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5275.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那所以聽到這邊大家應該要了解到辦案期限這樣子的規定去限制到去影響到的從來不會是那一些打混的法官因為對他們來講期限是長是短都沒差反正他們都可以用最輕鬆的方式把案件處理掉那影響到的會是誰就是那些認真的法官那假設在我們的案件現在越來越多那每一個法官工作量越來越大的前提下最後會導致什麼結果第一個就會讓每一個本來很認真的法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5276.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5277.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
《立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議》 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5299.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5324.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那如果大家都認同辦案期限需要適度的調整 那我們應該怎麼做其實我蠻訝異有看到那個在座那個司改會前不久開一個記者會發聲明那其實有明確的講到說我覺得你們除了提到檢法工程這我覺得都蠻有道理這個很多方向都是正確之外在你們那個記者會聲明我認真看第二點第三點都有提到說就是其實司法院應該要去思考是不是應該要適度的放鬆鬆綁管考 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5326.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5350.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那當然你們也提到說這個可能會有一定的疑慮嘛這個應該要想清楚因為確實管考制度有它存在的價值如果全部都把它廢除掉或許有可能會導致這個人民受到司法給付會受到影響那到底要怎麼做我自己有一次在看新聞的時候看到一個勞保年金他會依照消費者物價指數的累積成長率調整這樣一個新聞所以我就參考這樣的概念提出以下的看法那作為拋磚引玉 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5353.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5382.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那我們現在的法制下我們要討論這件事情我們就要先去檢討現在的法制下到底辦案期限的規定規定在哪裡那大概是這些我找到的是這些如果還有漏的再請大家補充那這些規定裡面其實它本身就已經滿完備的針對各種案件類型各自定有期限長短不一的各種期限例如說像是以刑事案件為例因為我擔任其中是9年是刑庭法官我對刑事比較熟可能刑事可能會有分刑事的通常案件刑事的檢疫案件那通常案件它的期限就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5383.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5384.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
場域檢疫案件大概是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5386.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5413.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我們現在的這個調整機制會有什麼問題喔稍微幫我點一下那個超連結那請大家看一下就是我在我的資料裡有附上這個就是在4月24號大概就是上個禮拜吧很快就公布了這個東西了所以為什麼我今天會鎖定這個東西來做因為辦案極限的調整它就是司法院馬上就可以做的事情它是立刻馬上現在就可以做到的事情在大家開始關注這個血汗司法議題之後司法院很快的就 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5413.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5435.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個是只有縣民刑庭適用的啦因為我剛剛講很多像行政法院、懲戒法院什麼少家可能適用的是其他辦案期限規定這次調整是民刑的這個條文那裡面就很明確的有對一些特殊案件類型拉出來那做一些辦案期限的延長但是這樣調整有什麼問題喔其實它永遠都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳永遠都會慢半拍幫我關掉 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5438.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5460.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那這邊我想請大家先靜下心來思考一個問題我們今天這麼多人到底為什麼要坐在這裡其實我們不就是要去討論一件事情就是要建構怎麼樣的司法工作環境才不會算血汗那所以白話一點講我們要討論的就是法官每個月負擔幾個案件才不會做到撐不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5462.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5476.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
所以終究我們要面對一個不能迴避的問題就是假設在管考制度不可能完全廢除的情況下那我們就必須要決定在適用這個管考制度的前提下法官每個月可負擔的合理件數 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5478.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5503.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
該怎麼決定?時間真的很有限我簡單提出三個面向第一個就是總是大家都會說司法院很喜歡找外國學者做研究那我們就是請學者去做一些就外國的先進法治國家的經驗狀況但通常以前司法院做的都總是在講說其他國家有幾個國民有幾個法官這樣的比例可是其實我先講我覺得這個沒有意義因為我們國家的好送程度是跟其他國家不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5503.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5503.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5520.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5548.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
每個月會去統計說這個庭的這個法官這個刑事庭的平均這個月呢結了幾件他結了幾件通常案件結了幾個檢疫案件這個都是確實每個法院內部都會有確實會有的統計資料那我覺得就是要用我們可以用什麼東西來看呢我們都知道有幾個地方調出率一直都比較高像是桃園最近幾年台中等等這些地方就應該要是列為艱困法院在我們就可以參考這些艱困法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5549.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5549.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5564.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5587.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
參考的標準可以截得這個負擔量因為終究是那些比較不會調出的那些法院就可以得出說這個地方的法官是比較活得下去了這是可以這樣想的那再來就是說像是艱困年度這幾年大家都知道說這幾年有所謂的離退率越來越高但其實才不是這幾年其實這個事情存在很多年了所以我覺得也可以參考這幾年到底哪些年度開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5588.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5589.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
立法院第11屆第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5606.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5629.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
法官要派出代表各法院法官派出代表做程序參與因為我真的覺得其實現在在職的每一個法官他們都是最了解最了解這個現實狀況的人所以我希望要讓每一個在職的法官都應該不是就是讓每一個地院都要能夠派出法官去反映這個事情然後去程序參與那統合這個要素之後我們終於就可以得出一個結論這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5632.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5634.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
決定法官每月可負擔的合理件數 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5652.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5677.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這樣子的司法給付水準因為法官必須要接這麼多件那我舉一個例子我時間真的快到了不好意思我今天一定會超時我以後也可能不會再出現在這個場合所以請容許我多講一下請把時間借給我不好意思我提出一下以地院刑庭為例我只是舉例喔我就是我參考我以前工作的經驗我列了這樣的一個案件案件比例或是假設我們決定的比例結果是這樣我們認為法官每一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5678.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5697.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
他可以負擔的件數簡易程序我們預估15件那通常程序是10件其他的太複雜了我們留待以後再討論那接著下一步司法院在做出這樣子的通案標準之後我們下一步要做什麼接著就是各法院的工作了各法院他就應該要去我覺得啦我覺得這期間可以定3個月他可以每隔3個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5698.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5711.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
分別針對我們剛剛講的那個辦案期限裡面的各種案件類型去計算每一位法官平均的每月新收件數計算基準要是實際辦案的法官人數我解釋一下什麼叫實際辦案法官人數為什麼要這樣計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5713.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5740.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我一定要花時間慢慢講因為我知道很多人想知道這個事情要怎麼做這是我花了很多時間跟很多人討論所想出來的實際辦案人數這個計算有什麼好處因為我們知道有些法官他會兼任行政職那有些法官他可能兼任審判長所以他可能只有分二分之一、三分之一那分二分之一的法官他就應該用0.5人計算那另外呢我們其實現在實務上面對一個很大的困難是即使你生病了即使你有請孕婦的需求我們都不敢請為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5741.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5753.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
很簡單因為我們請了人力沒有增加的情況下會造成其他同事的困擾大家會討厭你所以即使法官他就是捨不得離開他剛出生的小孩通常產假一結束大家就是得很快的回到工作崗位 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5755.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5772.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
如果我們每三個月都做一次這樣的統計那我們就可以把這些有短期的這種這種短期的人力短缺給計算進去他即使請假了他也不會相對比較不會影響到其他同事因為他這個辦案人力就被扣掉了這樣了解嗎?所以我才覺得必須要用這個東西去計算那 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5774.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5794.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
算出後這個數字我們再來拿來跟剛剛我所講的司法院建構出來通案標準做比較如果超過一定比例這都是我舉例啦那辦案期限就可以自動延長例如超過30%延長2個月超過50%延長4個月那如果短期內超過的這個案件真的太多到不合理的比例的話又要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5794.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5795.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5813.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5830.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這個東西本來我很想講,也沒有時間了,我必須要跳過去我覺得現在我們的民事訴訟的低銷是1000塊那在行政訴訟法以占最大宗的交通案件它的費用只要300塊那其實我們物價一直在漲那其實大家都知道道路交通大家就會很關心什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5834.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5855.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
當這些東西不斷的調高但是訴訟費用、裁判費都從來沒有改變那只代表什麼意思?代表訴訟成本越來越低所以每一個人民都有很大的誘因想要賭一把看看那這會怎麼樣?導致很多民眾即使知道站不住腳還是要來甚至要叫法官寫判決反正才300塊我也不想要撤回啊即使我都看完看夜影片我知道我就是闖紅燈了 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5857.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5881.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我這回那幾百塊我也不要我寧願就是讓法官寫一個判決給我這真的就是排擠到這個社會上真正需要司法幫助的那群人最後我再把這個東西講一下就是我覺得管考制度的合理調整是司法院現在馬上立刻就可以做到的事情那我也知道前陣子書記官的事情也讓大家非常的難過那甚至某種程度上也造成法官跟書記官 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5882.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5882.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5891.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5912.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我也想說就是請社會大眾要持續關注這個議題因為只有身心健康的司法人員才能夠成為守護正義定分執政的最後一道防線那再給我一點時間這是我在當法官的時候寫在臉書上的一段文字我想這段文字替還在體制內奮鬥的所有司法官說出心裡真正想說的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5913.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5927.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我真的很喜歡這份工作每當看到司法形象一次次遭到重挫我都會非常難過因為我身邊有太多法官默默忍受著孤獨犧牲和家人相處的時間燃燒自己的身體健康只為了把無盡增生的案件辦好 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5932.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5932.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
謝謝黃律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5957.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5960.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們現在介紹一下在場出席的委員蘇清泉委員黃國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5980.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5981.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
司法院及法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6015.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6018.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
台北教育大學文教法律研究所 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6033.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6055.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
其實在接到這樣的一個任務的這段過程裡面我有機會去問一些我自己熟識的朋友目前在省檢然後包括在律師工作的一些朋友們我跟他們說我要出作業給他們說我來這邊參加公聽會要請給我一些可以來這邊報告的一些建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6057.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6082.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我想大家可以預期我可以得到的答案大概就是兩個字 減量應該還有四個字補人加減量我就一直在想說今天受邀的比如像前面幾位都是司法界的先進非常優秀的先進所提出的意見如果我今天是一個一般民眾我在這個場所聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6084.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6108.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這些司法先進們這樣的一個說明跟這樣的一個報告我會得到什麼樣的感覺我相信很多民眾會馬上有一個反應就是現在這個時代誰不忙現在這個時代誰不累那為什麼法官跟檢察官的忙跟累我們立法院要開一個公聽會那台積電的工程師忙跟累 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6109.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6109.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6135.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6148.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
法律工作者,我想我今天的報告比較想要針對的是司法行政方面可以怎麼樣改變而且是站在也許是比較有距離的角度來提出我的一些看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6150.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6179.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那所以第一個減量跟補人是不是就可以減壓我自己覺得這是一個迷詞這是一個迷詞前面幾位先進都提到說實證調查或者實證研究法官的一個合理的負擔的工作量是必要的我自己覺得這個也是我目前就我們現在司法行政以及我們現在的一個司法現況的一個觀察就是說我們欠缺對於法官、檢察官職務內容的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6180.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6205.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
合理而且是有實質內容的分析評估比如說我們常常在包括今天在一些會議資料上我們都看到說法官每年的收案量然後每個法院每年的收案量每個月的收案量是多少然後去比較每個國家這個國家有多少國民然後這個國家有多少個法官跟檢察官這樣的比較本身有沒有意義這我自己覺得恐怕都 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6206.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6206.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6223.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6236.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
對照不會讓我們就因此成為法制先進國家所以我非常誠懇建議我們的不管是法務部或者是司法院我們必須要針對案件的類型這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6238.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6265.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
透過一些正當的行政程序去認定工作負擔的這個質跟量剛剛黃律師、黃前法官有提出他這樣的一套算式我自己覺得或許可以在執行類似這樣的一個計算的過程裡面加入一些有司法行政、司法的經驗但是不是在司法的體系裡面的比如說學者專家或者是這個律師甚至是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6267.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6295.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
一般的其他的中產階級或是上班族的這樣的意見我們去定義說該有什麼樣的一個案件類型然後這個案件類型大概需要多少的時間、多少的人力來執行我這邊舉一個例子在我們之前E-mail附的會議資料上面有這樣的一個表就是鉛額表各位會看到一個非常形式性的一個分 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6296.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6306.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
分類方式就是用案件量而不去區分案件的內容、案件的類型完全用案件量來分它是哪一類這樣的1到6類的地檢署或檢查分署有怎麼樣的編制 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6314.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6334.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
極端形式的這個標準也許形式上是公平的但是絕對不是一個合理分配人力的一個途徑因為它完全沒有顧及到案件的類型跟每個案件難易的程度那當然這邊牽涉到非常多的這個判斷的標準什麼樣的案子叫做難什麼樣的案子叫做簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6338.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6362.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
每位先進都可以提出各種因素來決定這個標準比如說要傳多少證人到底有多少請求權基礎到底要調查多少的證據到底有多少的主張然後受害者有多少或者行為人員有多少這些東西正是我們需要透過我們行政部門非常愛講的大數據或者數位運算的方式來做這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6363.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6387.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
分析跟調查,那我覺得這個部分如果我們要訂出一個可以說服人的標準這是未來可以努力的方向那接下來如果沒有正確合理評估他的這個工作量的話我舉大家都在講的這個檢察官助理來說好了我自己在1999年的時候曾經是第一批的高等行政法院的法官助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6389.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6405.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
從1999年到現在經歷了20幾年的法官助理投入司法法院體系了法官還是覺得很忙很累然後生活非常慘那到底法官助理可以幫忙到什麼程度所有的法官跟我講說沒有法官助理會更慘 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6406.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6406.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6428.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6452.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我看我們的這個司法院我們所提的資料強調那個ADR的這個分身解決機制我覺得這也是個迷思啦延續我剛才講的這個統計資料我覺得不足的地方我剛才在很快的瀏覽我們司法院所提出的資料都提到說這個ADR使用的這個件數不斷的提高但是這個統計資料沒有讓我們看到的是說到底有多少的民事爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6454.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6480.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
總共有多少民事爭議現在這個訴訟外分身解決機制的件數提高但是它占全部的爭議的比例到底是提高還是降低呢就這個部分我自己覺得資料量是不足的啦那這是第一個第二個我認為ADR的一個處理結果應該要保留讓司法機關可以尋求救濟跟審查的途徑所以ADR不能夠取代司法審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6481.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6482.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
分爭解決機制可否簡壓? |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6504.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6504.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6524.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6551.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這個部分正是我剛才講到需要透過程序去討論因為有些程序很繁複正是因為他有其他的不管是憲法或者是這個人權保障上面的一個公益需要實現所以有這樣的一個繁複的程序那這些繁複的程序跟司法的減量之間要做怎麼樣的一個權衡就這部分是大家可以去考慮的最後我想要提到這個管考跟職務評定的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6554.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6572.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
今年2月112年上次第二號關於某一位前法官因為他這個常常有幾個案子不斷的再開辯論或者是延展這個宣判期間然後被司法院直接評定為未達良好所以就展開這樣的一個訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6573.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6574.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6595.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6595.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6615.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6640.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
在我這個書面的這個資料裡面提到說那樣一個這個要不要展言這個宣判其實要不要再開辯論這個部分完全是屬於這個法官的關於案件的一個價值判斷或是說這個正當到底要怎麼樣正確適用法律的一個行使所以我自己認為就這個部分應該要鬆綁然後就例外才需要加以這個管考或職務評定好 以上好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6644.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6644.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
蘇清泉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6675.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6693.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
謝謝主席今天我來參加這個公聽會我用另外一個角度來看第一個我要肯定肯定我們司法人員因為我們司法人員前三個禮拜還發現有法官書記官都過勞過勞死 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6699.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6715.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個我看在法界超時工作、超量工作、薪水太低然後留不住人跟我們醫界好像有點雷同我們的護理師幾乎要跑光了沒有人要幹然後我們司法界這邊也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6723.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6738.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
什麼樣的補充人力跟一屆一樣我們有全力支持我今天就在修改健保法跟醫療法今天就要改所以我們要共同面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6739.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6764.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
但是我另外一個我肯定是大部分的司法人員另外一個我自己這一次從頭到尾參加訴訟我從頭到尾都全程參與所以我有把我的看法然後報章也提出來我請司法院院秘書長等一下也能給我回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6765.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6782.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
第一,我在2022年參選屏東縣長我跟周春美是票數很接近可能屏東優秀以來最接近市場內很多不公平的、不實的然後票開到 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6787.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6809.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
11點多還在開一個小小的屏東縣總選舉票數才幾張一個新北市好幾百萬張它可以在9點之前都全部開完我們那邊才四五十萬張可以開到三個半個那裡面一大堆的問題我們在屏東 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6810.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6819.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
地方法院民事庭開庭我每次都全程參與我們三個律師都很認真但是到了4月29號我們才發現說 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6823.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6843.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我們這個陳審的審判長他的先生是職業的律師以前跟我們這個被告周春米現場是合夥、僱用什麼東東都有然後到了周春米當部分區的時候這個律師事務所就由他先生就由這個黃偉倫律師來主持 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6847.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6870.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
然後我們在訴訟期間整個屏東縣的案子整個被告的案子也都持續在委託這個黃偉隆律師然後他太太是審判長我們昨天看到我們屏東電話法院的回應我是覺得我要請教秘書長的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6872.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6899.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
她說她先生跟我們的承辦的法官兩個平日都忙於工作無暇過問對方的事務內容那我要請問我們司法院是有在那個法官家裡是有裝監聽設備是不是不然人家在家裡講什麼事情你也知道你也知道他們都無暇過問我跟我太太都是醫生我們在家裡會討論病人的病情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6900.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6915.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個是天經地義的事情所以這 這個就是要迴避我有請教我們主席吳宗憲他當檢察官的時候他說他老爸是當律師嘛 對不對他老爸只要認識的 任何有關聯的他絕對迴避 怕會怕死所以這樣大剌剌的 這樣繼續了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6924.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6927.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我們有那麼優秀的司法人員有那麼優秀的一些法官、書記官那麼也有一堆這一種這樣用利益在輸送等等的我是我沒有辦法接受我是瞠目結舌啦我每次開庭每次都亂說幾句啊我才知道說原來這麼多問題必端都要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6945.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6968.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
整個過程在講就真的會吐血了用手蓋手印,領了一堆票拿別人的章一直領,領一堆票然後唱票,你們這個視頻全世界都看到了人家需要先唱票、亮票、整票他是一直當某某的一票、某某的一票這樣一直丟我在這裡執行過我們的李金勇 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6970.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6989.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
中選會他想說有很多瑕疵跟弊端他也承認但是我才回想起來當時的審判長這麼極度的不友善我們要求什麼東西他都不要他都不給那我才深深感覺說原來事實是這樣所以這個讓我一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6995.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7017.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
一屆的人那我一個立法委員我現在真的是對這個司法你們在講司法正義你們要補充人力你們要工作量減輕待遇大幅提高 我在全力支持但是像這一種的要如何來避免還有如何來迴避還有這樣有沒有違法我要這裡就教於各位以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7023.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7030.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
有關蘇委員這部分在司法院最後再說明一下我們接下來請土秀玲法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7048.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7072.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
以及各位先進很榮幸有這個機會與會報告我目前是臺中地院家事法庭的專業法官所以我今天的報告只限於家事的部分但是司法整體的負荷到現在其實無論院檢一直都是非常沉重的所以很非常感謝主席及各位委員先進能和我們一起關心這個課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7075.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7093.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
從去年8月我從2省回任1省擔任法官8月底中院的家事庭的每個法官的月平均數是317件也就是我3個月要補分完317件加上新收案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7096.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7113.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
給大家看一下這個數字雖然108年在大院的支持下有修原額法增了司法的人力但是我們看從108年我們的案件還是持續的增加到112年甚至也增加到2萬多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7116.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7141.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那案件量大我們今年8月我們賈士廷的法官從檢察官轉任的法官他要辭職了那我去跟他問的時候他跟我說案件量的負荷大他心裡的負擔也大覺得沒有辦法好好處理這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7143.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7154.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
案件量大在家事案件中我們處理的當事人跟孩子們 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7158.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7175.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我想這個是今年發生的事情在開完庭的隔天就發生了這樣的事情這都是我們在處理家事裡面最不願意看到的事情而這是我們衝突劇烈的當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7177.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7199.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我想這個畫面大家應該也有印象這也是我們第一個跨國帶回孩子的案件那我記得我們跨國的刑警去帶的時候這個孩子才不到1歲他在這樣短的時間裡面沒有媽媽的照顧他看到媽媽的時候他是在原地停住 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7200.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7200.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7220.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7246.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這是我們家事庭處理的案子我看到在錄影帶裏面媽媽用腳踹孩子用推孩子但是你們知道嗎在電梯裏面仍然看到那麼幼小的孩子張開雙手要媽媽抱這是我們在家事庭裏的日常我們看到的是急需要我們協助的孩子跟當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7249.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7261.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
案件多但是我們必須要細緻化的處理所以現在家事庭的處理是以未成年子女核心的家事處理方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7263.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7291.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這是開庭的時候孩子告訴我的話一個幼稚園的孩子他告訴我法官不要再讓我跑來跑去了為什麼這兩個父母在家事法庭反覆禁案只為了會面交往的地點是不是均等的距離這是我們的家事庭裡面衝突的父母反覆來回的當事人他們看不到孩子的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7295.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7309.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以在家事庭處理我們必須也一定要讓這些父母有一個正確的認知讓他們知道而且藉由親子教育的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7310.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7339.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
一切由專業調解的協助．讓這些父母能夠自主解決他們的問題．所以我們在程序裡面．我們必須有更多專業的協助．這交往的協助以及專業調解．還有我們家事庭中間專業的分工．在在都需要時間跟人力．跟資源的連結．這些都是為了我們的當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7341.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7365.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
包括在審理中﹐訪師、社工﹐還有代表未成年子女﹐探求未成年子女的主客觀利益的程序監理人﹐再包括在家事程序裡面﹐因為法官的特定事項﹐而請求家事調查官去調查的這些家事調查官﹐都需要法官在整個程序的處理面﹐結合各種資源來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7370.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7389.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
因為家事事件的特性．它有私密性．家屬成員之間非理性的感情糾葛．他們的關係．絕對不會因為司法程序而終了．所以我們希望協助當事人能夠善了． |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7389.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7406.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那在這樣的程序裏面,我們當然需要調解的前置,協助當事人在衝突中看到孩子在衝突中受到的影響,看到孩子真正的需求跟渴望。我想大家可能很難想像,一個訴訟案件, |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7415.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7433.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
只要進了公訪父母會竭盡可能地證明他是一個好爸爸、好媽媽拍了非常多的照片放在法官的卷宗裡面但是當我請孩子來的時候卷宗裡的照片都是他們沒有看過的照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7443.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7467.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
父母的拍照只是為了在法官面前顯示他們是好爸爸、好媽媽我都印象很深刻的記得這四個孩子圍在我身邊看著裡面的照片說著他跟爸爸分別去哪裡跟媽媽去哪裡以及他們最後一次的營火蟲之旅 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7470.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7479.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
所以處理這些案件不可能很快我們也不可能在沒有人力需求的情況下去處理我們家事庭在法院裡面因為它不是一個專業法院的家事庭所以我們受限於 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7496.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7520.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
資源的分配我們的家事調解空間在法 臺中地院法 量如此大的情況下我們只有四間家事調解的家事專屬家事的調解但大家想想看在這麼劇烈衝突的情況下的當事人我們怎麼可能只用這四間來協助他們做好這一切調解的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7523.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7523.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7535.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7563.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
去年在臺中地院跟新北地院跟高紹家也就是我們全國現在目前唯一的一個專業法院案件量都到了3萬多件但是高紹的法官嘉士廷的法官有19位新北嘉士廷的法官有16位臺中嘉士廷的法官11位在這樣的案件量 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7568.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7592.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我們真的要幾乎要有專業法院的設置為什麼需要有專業法院的設置因為處在父母衝突中的孩子他們需要更細緻的協助處理要需要專業家事的調解基礎上更擴大調解精進的功能而且促進不同專業的跨領域合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7593.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7594.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
讓當事人能夠自主地解決紛爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7623.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7646.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
在我們的少年更需要有多元化的處遇措施在這些積極的推動整合資源的平台結合這些相關人員是符合少年所需的福利服務等措施還有新住民家庭暴力受害身心障礙以及高齡化社會更需要的更多的監護議題都需要專業法院細緻化的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7648.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7655.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
在對於司法需求慎重的兒少身心障礙及老人等弱勢都需要專業法院在大院 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7661.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7661.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7683.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7684.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7700.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7725.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
在司法人力都不足的時刻為什麼仍懇切的請大家能關注少佳的部分因為我們知道能讓處於衝突中的孩子在父母結束了夫妻關係後仍能好好合作愛孩子在孩子成長過程中就算一時失了方向也總有人可以牢牢的接住也許我們的孩子可以長大這就是許院長剛才說的我們要做對的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7729.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7753.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這一切都需要足夠的司法人力．讓邵家能夠好好處理這些重要的事情所以最後真的懇請大家從源頭協助．能夠補足足夠的司法人力．方能合理充實司法所需的人力謝謝大家好 謝謝土法官那下一位我們請李聖傑副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7762.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7771.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
主席吳昭偉還有與會的黃委員與會的各位先進還有各位的行政長官、司法長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7774.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7794.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
早上到現在我想我們聽了很多面向關於這一個如何去改進我們現在的現有的司法實務的困境尤其就人力的增補那我們也看到各個我們不管是這個律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7795.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7818.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
改任法官或檢察官所面臨的很多困境實際的數字做數據調查一定有意義在大會所提供的法務部提供的資料上面也都讓我們看到我們所面臨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7820.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7841.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
司法資源改進的急迫性我想在相關的這個司法資源尤其是人力資源我們從院檢的人力資源的分配來看的話因為其實這是一個分配的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7843.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7865.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
基本上在現有的這種人力資源還有國家資源有限的情況下當然每一個機關都希望在現有的這種食物困境上人力資源處理的困境上能夠獲得最有效的挹注 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7866.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7866.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7888.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7907.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這一種說明大概就會擺在我們的刑事案件所能夠增補的這種檢察官相關行政事務是不是有立即解決的方法從這個面向來做說明在1999年的時候我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7912.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7921.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
法院組織法當時事實上就如同大會今天所提出來的資料一樣在相關的立法意見上其實當時是法官助理必須要增補 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7931.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7954.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
然後在這個《法院組織法》一開始也希望就這個偵查體系以這個檢察官然後下面配有這個檢察事務官跟檢察官助理這樣的一個三角關係可是很可惜的當時這一個檢察官助理沒有入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7955.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7984.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那沒有入法之後呢那也形成今天如果我們也面對了這樣的一個人力吃緊的現象下呢那要把這一個檢察官助理入法的話那這一個相關的檢察官助理他在司法實務的定性上呢那他究竟相助的是偵查行政工作或者是偵查的司法工作那可能這邊就要去釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7985.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8006.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那如果我們從院檢的這種人力的分配來看的話那我想我們都知道不管是這個院方或者是檢方相關參與這一個食物偵辦的人員那事實上都非常的辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8007.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8027.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那可是呢 基本上如果說我們從每月新增的案件來看的話那其實以刑事案件為例齁 那就我瞭解簡化官新增的案件呢那大約是相關刑事庭的法官案件的3倍那為什麼會這樣子呢 那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8029.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8054.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
進入檢查體系基本上包含所有起訴或不起訴案件尤其是不起訴案件大概會花掉相關信財案件的三分之二也就是說只有三分之一會進入到院方體系我想這個數據是必要被知悉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8056.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8074.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
也不知道為什麼在過往的人力增補上我們也看到相關的人力分配的比例來講在過往我們看到的是院方大概是減房的一倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8075.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8075.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
人力分配關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8093.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8110.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
接下來我想說就這一個民眾黨團還有這個劉建國委員等16人所提出來的這個法院組織法的修法那在66條之五還有把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8111.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8140.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
檢管檢察官助理入法確實有法制化的呈現為一個常態的職務然後透過這一個第73條附表的修正呈現出這一種檢察官的助理依照不同級的檢察署然後呈現為定額的分配這個都是必要的接下來我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8141.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8165.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
在檢查工作負擔的治標跟治本的面向思考上那治標當然今天大家都談到就是一種人力資源的增加那這個我想剛剛我已經提到了在審判跟偵查工作的比例意義上我們現在有的數據其實它是有意義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8166.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8187.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那基本上呢 不起訴也花了這一種偵查工作呢 差不多每月新增量近三分之二的這一種案件的份量那現有的這一種法院組織法第66條之3呢 基本上已經釐清了 已經定性了 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8188.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8210.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
檢察官、檢察事務官的工作當然當時在1999年修法前本來在偵查體系裡面所呈現出來的檢察官、檢察事務官再加上檢察官助理這樣的三角關係在我們現行的反映組織法並不存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8212.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8234.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
也就是說我們現在的檢察事務官按照66條之3的規定基本上他具有司法警察的功能其實我們的檢察事務官在相關考試篩選的這個標準上有分別呈現出他們特有的專長是我們法律人所沒有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8234.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8255.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
譬如說他有會計專長譬如說他有一個稅務專長譬如說他有工程專業或者是譬如說他有這樣的一個資訊處理的專長那本來他應該是相助我們的這個法律人做司法實務的偵查工作檢察官在這邊在他沒有的專業上 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8257.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8274.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
給予偵查意見可是當時其實在1999年修法的時候沒有這樣的給檢察事務官的定性所以現在在檢察官助理可能我們就要加強他真的是一個專業的法律人 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8274.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8302.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那如何讓這個專業的法律人在我們現有的刑法體系上可以運用那其實這邊可以看我們這臺灣的社會現實那我們每年從這個法學院法律系畢業了很多法律系的學生然後參與這一個國家相關的司律考試司法官跟律師的考試那每年大概都會產生1000個律師左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8302.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8303.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8321.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8337.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
檢察官助理的工作上可以去考慮擴大法律專長的人才接下來我想說在一個治本的方面其實治本就是減少送援 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8338.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8360.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那減少訴言的話呢 我們現在其實檢察官我們是有武器的我覺得應該落實《刑事訴訟法》253條給他的這一種職權不起訴這個不是說他無罪 就是輕罪、微罪那他職權不起訴那職權不起訴我們現在有的這一個面臨的問題呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8363.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8383.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
長長被害人或告訴人他會在意在意之後你去看那個在意成功的比例其實相當高也使得基層檢察官不太願意用職權不起訴的武器這邊或許是在我們的法務體系裡面自己做內部的改善我想最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8386.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8412.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我們的司法資源不足尤其是人力分配上司法資源要用在刀口上我想最後最後提出來的一個從制度面上應該去改善的東西就是我們所謂的強化訴訟外紛爭解決機制除了調解之外的另類思考那個基本上我們現在相關的很多的案件假性財產犯罪還有這個什麼輕微案件類似像公安侮辱的這一類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8416.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8433.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
這一種案件基本上也是佔了很多的司法資源所以我覺得在本質上應該讓這些絕對告訴奶論的這些案子不要浪費我們的司法資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8433.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8457.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以他既然要告就由當事人自己負擔所以自訴先行應該是從《刑事訴訟法》去處理法律制度的修改然後在自訴先行下基本上也要讓這些人透過律師的必要代理或者是訴訟費用的必要分擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8458.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8458.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
黃國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8479.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8502.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
非常感謝今天這麼多的學者專家還有我們實務上面的先進到立法院司法法制委員會來給我們針對這麼重要的議題提供寶貴的意見那有很多其實是我以前在學界的前輩也有很多是我非常敬重的法官跟檢察官還有律師今天都表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8503.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8532.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
願意花各位非常珍貴的時間來給本院很多的建議我相信對我們接下來在處理相關的問題上不管是預算案還是法律案都能更有非常好的幫助我今天其實在感謝所有參與的學者專家還有事務界的先進的時候我必須要再苦口婆心的告訴我們的司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8533.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8560.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
請把你該做的工作做好我再說一次啊 司法院請把你該做的工作做好今天我看到司法院的報告我不敢相信上一次我們在這個會議室針對這個問題 詢答的時候你們提那個內容簡略殘破不堪的報告出來我當場就跟你們講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8562.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8578.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
今天公聽會送一模一樣的東西來請問你們到底在做什麼啊為什麼這件事情重要我秀一個表給大家看啊你們現在開出來的名額是5500個我先表達我的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8580.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8603.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
作為一個法律人曾經交過民事訴訟在中研院搞過法學實證研究而且專門在研究司法制度的我有很多同學、學長姐、朋友甚至學生現在都在第一線擔任工作我知道他們辦案的辛苦我知道他們辦案的需要但請司法院認清一件事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8604.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8628.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
當立法院要擴增員額、要增加預算我們負責任的對象是人民我們需要知道你在現在一萬五千名你要多增加這五千多名在當代民主法治國家當中我們必須要對人民負責不是閉著眼睛你開口要什麼就給你什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8629.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8657.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
五千多個人你打算要怎麼用?用到哪裡去?不用提出負責任的人力規劃報告嗎?我上一次質詢的時候我很清楚的跟你們講欸原額如何分配請你們交報告出來我到昨天 傍晚 晚上山炊事情請我辦公室跟司法院聯絡報告在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8659.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8661.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
報告在哪裡說不交就不交司法院有這麼傲慢的喔在司法院裡面大官該做的事不做做的哩哩啦啦把最辛苦的法官推到第一線 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8684.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8709.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
來立法院裡面要預算要原額我們都支持阿問題是你司法院這樣的表現是能看喔為什麼這件事情重要我今天看到我以前的我不敢稱他為老同事阿但是算是在教授民事訴訟法學界裡面我一直很佩服的一位學長江世民老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8710.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8736.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
江老師之前幹過第一線的法官所以他從法官退下來教民事訴訟法的時候他能夠直接教到問題的核心他不是只有介紹外國的理論跟實務上面的運作要怎麼相結合在法學院裡面教得很透徹我今天拜讀了江世民老師的書面我看了很感動他書面上面怎麼寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8738.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8760.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
在人事組織的討論 司法院應該先盤點以下的事項第一個 是否未善用現有的人力藉調院辦事的法官是不是太多專業法庭的人力與受理案件數是否趨於平衡是否有懶惰的法官不辦案 承辦案件一年多就打算由其他的法官辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8763.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8786.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
江老師是一個溫文儒雅的學者他講話、寫文章其實都很有藝術但我一看就看懂這是我為什麼跟你們要你們人力到底怎麼分配立法院要負責任的做這件事情我們就要告訴全民現在實際上面的狀況到底是什麼你們當初 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8787.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8808.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
跟大家講 跟立法院講說傷勢案件很重要我們要設傷勢法庭傷勢案件如何又如何結果設了以後運作到現在你們要不要排個專案報告跟全國人民講你們設了傷勢法院 案件量多少全部交由三個人集中審理這是好事嗎你們司法院不是沒有資源欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8814.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8842.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
你可以花上億的預算上億的預算去媒體搞各式各樣的置入性行銷結果連一個像樣的分析報告都做不出來以司法院的高度要委託學者去做人力盤查的實證研究我負責任的講一點都不難啦因為這個問題太重要了在台灣願意做這個問題的學者太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8844.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8873.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
以前我在中研院法律所的時候我也幫司法院做過啊大家都知道這個問題重要現實上面發生的狀況重要結果你們司法院作為最高的司法機關要求院與院之間相互尊重一定尊重你們啊但是拜託你們摸著你們自己的良心啊你們今天交出來的這樣子的報告有辦法對納稅人交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8877.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8882.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
請你們盤點現有的人力這麼難嗎人到底是怎麼用的有深刻的反省現在的狀況現在的不足誠實的面對問題到立法院來合理人數上面的增加的需求我說過要修法要調預算我們都支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8906.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8927.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
但我們必須要了解現在的狀況到底是什麼你們人力禁用的計畫到底是什麼負責任的才有辦法加以審查嘛檢察官辦案快要被淹沒我們也提了法院組織法的修正草案我們願意去改副表給檢察官助理法治化這些我們都支持啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8929.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8958.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
但請記得一件事不管是司法院還是立法院在我國的憲政民主秩序下我們共同要負責任的對象是台灣人民我利用今天的公聽會再次的表達我懇求我們的司法院體恤法官最有效的方式啊不是發新聞稿啊要他們多休息去運動啊把你的工作做好Do your job |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8959.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8983.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
交這種不及格的報告我對司法院的表現非常的失望以上好 謝謝那接著由受邀列席的財政法人民間司法改革基金會常務執行委員蔡學儀律師好 那蔡學儀律師發言時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9001.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9018.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
主席 各位委員 還有各位與會的學長姊先進 各位大家好我先簡單自我介紹一下我雖然來公聽會好幾次今天檢清司法負擔其實是我最關注的一點因為我自己以前也擔任過檢察官跟法官我之前在 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9019.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9040.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
平東地檢署、台中地檢署、新北地檢署還有桃園地方法院都擔任過檢察官跟法官的工作那我必須說明說今天這個議題對我來說是非常有感的因為我算是司法過勞的一個受害者為什麼這麼說呢因為其實我自己的父親他是23期的最高法院法官退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9041.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9069.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
他現在已經退休了他是蔡國在蔡法官我記得我在三、四十年前的時候我還小的時候我跟我父親非常的不親近因為我父親他整天都埋頭在他的判決書的撰寫上面我記得我媽媽跟我說他當年第一名分發到台北地院的時候他為了要把手上的機案清乾淨當時還沒有用電腦打字是用手寫判決書寫到他的右手這邊還有脫臼我記得很清楚的是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9070.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9096.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那時候晚上我媽都要幫他用熱敷的方式然後買很多那種膏藥幫他貼著他才有辦法繼續工作下去那我父親也經常把工作帶回家去寫判決假日的時候他也沒有太多的時間帶我們出去玩因為他要在家裡面加班或是去辦公室加班那我那時候小時候就深深認為說為什麼我的同學都可以假日的時候有父母親帶他們出去玩但我爸爸就只能在 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9097.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9099.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
當然從小到大耳濡目染之後也聽到我父親很多對於司法正義的一些願景 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9114.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9135.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那我跟我弟弟兩個人也都念了法律系那我有幸也考上了司法官跟律師那我弟弟也考上律師那我自己擔任法官之後擔任檢察官之後我其實內心一直跟我自己說我絕對不要像我父親一樣每天埋頭一工作那忽忽的對家人的照顧那但是很不幸的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9136.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9160.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我發現要做到這一點真的非常的難因為不管人力再怎麼增加永遠都是跟著案件走案件一定是案件增加了我們才會有人力的增補所以案件人增加但案件分到我們手上不會越來越少只會越來越多以至於說我從以前擔任司法官不然講法官的任內我的肝指數一直都維持居高不下的超過200以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9161.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9188.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那當然醫生一直提醒我要小心注意那以前我還不太那麼在意但直到我成家之後有了小孩我真的是非常擔心這件事以至於說在我分發100年分發之後8年後我就決定先轉任法官因為我覺得說以檢察官的工作量每個月收支平衡必須截掉七八十件看起來實在太多了跟法官比起來剛剛前面一些學姊學長都提到的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9188.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9212.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
其實一個月如果可以結40件我覺得對甲官來說真的是一個非常棒的數字但我到了桃園地院去之後呢剛去可能是院長也接種我在之前實務上的經驗讓我去審查庭我到審查庭之後發現審查庭一個月案件分出來是一兩百件的案件我手上當時接兩個鼓手上一接到鼓的時候大概是五百多件的案子那 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9215.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9236.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
以刑事審查庭來說,它其實集了審理庭跟檢疫庭的弊端於一身因為檢疫庭它是案件很多但不需要開庭那審理庭是案件很少但它需要開庭那審查庭是案件很多又要開庭所以以至於我一天一個上午可能就要排到二十幾間,不然我絕對不可能那一個月會收支平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9237.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9264.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那再加上我為什麼說30年後我是這個司法過勞的受害者是在說因為肝指數一直太高了那我的醫生一直跟我說如果再不想辦法降下來的話很有可能之後會演發成那個猛暴性肝炎因為我在之前就已經成功有一次是高達1795的猛暴性肝炎指數了那醫生也警告我說不能再這樣繼續下去以至於說我都很希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9265.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9286.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
調整我自己的生活作息但最後沒有辦法我也只能選擇辭職來當律師但 辭職之後其實在辭職之前就一直有跟司改會去關注這個司法這個減輕負擔這個議題也提出了相關的一些修法建議我想待會我們那個林律師林永聰林律師會提出來那我只是想說在家法 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9287.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9312.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
在補充人力的加法以外也應該要提出相當多的簡法的一些議題跟想法以檢察官為例的話我認為說以增加人力當然檢察官助理我覺得是非常好的但是我希望能夠將這個比例配置到一個檢察官配置一個檢察官助理這是我當過法官有法官助理的經驗而來的千萬不要像之前設置了檢察事務官的這種負責因為好幾個檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9313.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9338.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好幾個才能夠配到一個檢察事務官以至於說我們案件每次交辦出去的時候有時候太久沒有回來我問了檢察事務官說請問案件到底交辦到什麼程度了他都會跟我說因為他手上案件太多要先處理誰誰誰的案件我都知道有劣後但我也不可能去問那個檢察官說你是不是真的有辦這麼多交這麼多案件給他要他優先處理這個是很難去做的所以我希望說檢察官處理應該要用一比一的方式那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9339.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9357.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
法官的這部分我希望說能夠考慮到一點剛剛那個許院長有提到說我們應該重視人才而法官檢察官最重要是在判斷就在認識用法的部分要怎麼樣去做一個判斷那書類真的不是一個最核心的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9358.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9380.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
如果可以適度的開放讓助理去幫我們去擬這個裁判的書類當然不可以是全額交割股那應該要把你為什麼要做這樣的判斷你認識的證據依據是什麼條列式的交給助理或是相關的輔助人力讓他來協助你做這個裁判的撰寫我想這樣的話也是一種可以考慮的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9380.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9382.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
接下來補充介紹到常委員羅志強委員接著我們請林達檢察官發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9413.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9420.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
主席各位委員還有各位法務部司法院長官和各位專家學者大家好我是林達 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9421.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9444.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那我就有四個建議那第一個是簡化現行犯解送程序修正刑事數碼第92條那我們現在其實只要改一個字把這個本來的一年改成五年一個字可以減輕我們警察檢察官甚至法官很多的負擔那我前幾天才做內勤那一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9445.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9471.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
送來的案件還是大量的都是很多私用毒品那還有像譬如說我們講的超商偷這個茶葉蛋10塊錢然後就和解了那到了深夜的時候呢就一直檢察官就催那個警察說到底幾點要送來那偵查隊呢就催這個派出所那整個晚上呢大家就搞得很累啊那現在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9473.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9493.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
連帶就擠壓到真正要處理重大案件要去生壓就delay這個時間所以其實我自己就主張說其實作法第92條把這個現行的一年以下擴大到五年以下這樣就可以解決很多問題了那第二個是簡化私用毒品徵結程序裏面緩擠數、排除職權在意 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9496.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9523.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那這也不困難我們緩起訴、負面接引治療呢基本上就是現在要鼓勵多給這樣的機會嘛那結果呢就大家在那邊瞎忙做這個書記官的整卷、送高檢署然後其實幾乎全部都是駁回嘛因為都給他緩起訴了難道他自己會出來說我不要緩起訴不可能嘛那其實就是瞎忙這個我覺得也改一個馬上就解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9524.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9538.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那第三個是簡化違罪不起訴處分書犯罪事實考慮直接引用移送書怎麼說我們那個車禍過失傷害都撤回了結果大家就在那邊還是要認真寫那你說寫這個很簡單還是要寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9541.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9570.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那有的時候這個群組留言誹謗結果為了做那個誹謗他罵哪些話還是要做副表非常無聊那其實差別在哪裡因為我們台灣這個《刑事訴訟法》有這個單一性、同一性的問題要比對所以其實只要檢查書類系統裡面能夠把這個附件一併上傳然後有移送書大家可以下一個司法官他再去看這個案件說有沒有告過有這個可以比對這樣就完成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9570.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9583.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那這樣的話大家其實在可以先從最簡單的這種撤回案件啦這種最小的案件來改良、示範那其實就大家就可以很快的就少掉這種負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9584.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9613.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那最後一個呢我覺得是施用毒品的一個偵辦程序那現行有這個出犯、再犯這樣的一個問題那我一直長期主張說這個出犯、再犯是一種錯誤的法制反而造成了院檢的負擔一直在那邊這個申請觀察樂界裁定一直在那邊起訴然後認定不是出犯的不受理結果大家在那邊瞎忙瞎忙了半天呢被告在家睡覺根本也沒有什麼用所以呢這個就是沒有什麼意義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9614.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9632.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那我花一點點小小的時間就解釋一下這個92條的部分我們大概現在我自己也很了解我們現在那個派出所要把人送到偵查隊這個晚上其實他們也是很辛苦那最多的其實就是酒駕吸毒跟竊盜 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9633.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9660.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那說真的為什麼我說這個吸毒的部分為什麼我說改一個字把一年以下的這個改成五年以下就好我們這個吸毒現在大概兩到三年以下有期徒刑其實晚上大家一直催那個警察把他送來結果送來地檢署以後就是問他你有沒有吸然後他就說有吸他說沒吸不管講什麼檢察官都不在乎反正不是賜回就是交保為什麼因為要等一個月以後的驗尿報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9661.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9680.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以今天晚上根本就是無聊然後大家就在那邊一直催問警察你幾點要送來大概就幹這件事那這個竊盜有的時候就整個晚上12點一直在等一個偷這個茶葉蛋的然後就是要等他來全部人才能休息然後大家壓力也很大大概就是這樣那 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9683.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9703.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
各位不要小看解送人犯依照這個辦法裡面他就是要花這麼多的警力其實真的是沒什麼意義那我知道法務部現在他有支持我們可以做視訊我覺得很好那當然如果更好的話就是我們等於直接把他休掉變五年以下那當然我不是說這個五年以下大家就 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9704.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9723.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
不要辦他喔 絕對不是這個意思喔那只是說他在現行犯解送上面基於輕罪的關係用傳真的方式來解決而已喔該重判還是要重判我舉個例子齁你把法律弄得有彈性齁實務上好操作怎麼說 像譬如說春安期間啦那個大量的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9724.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9745.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
抓了一大堆人 我們還要加派好幾倍的一到兩倍的檢察官再去問其實裡面很多都是這種小案件你把它變到一個五年以下然後可以由地方的治安首長跟檢警聯席會議或者說各地檢署他可以依照那個期間的要強力打擊酒駕的時候 他就把它全部解送 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9746.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9770.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
但他如果說因為某些案件量特別大他可以稍微把它放鬆也就是基於平等原則其實可以做一個處務的這個規程或一個檢察長他可以跟地方警查治安做這個反而可以去做調控那反而效率會更高這個是我個人強烈的建議那這邊一些案件數據就不提了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9772.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9775.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以我們只要把現在的一年以下改成五年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9776.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9805.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
其實就可以大幅的減輕很多的這個無謂的虛號那這邊我列出了現在實務上比較多在解送的法條虛線以上就是這些犯罪那現在幾乎這一條已經快被架空到只剩下一條叫做普通賭博罪我實務上只簽過那個普通賭博罪不予解送現在大概也沒有什麼賭博案件在抓了所以基本上這一條就已經廢掉了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9806.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9824.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
法務部以前最早的韓文也說各地檢署不得以法警人力不足為由,要求警方暫時不解送人犯這個韓文是正確的啦人就是不能這樣過夜亂押嘛那其實可不可以用比較小罪的部分去討論檢辯的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9826.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9850.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
好 這個就是我們批示很簡單我想那個吳委員應該以前也 我們都批過啦但現在已經沒機會批了 因為已經沒有這種罪我們這個罪名的刑度都是不斷上調好 那另外就是說我最後提一點就是剛剛講到初犯跟再犯我覺得這個初犯跟再犯 很多人比較沒有提我有利用小小的時間提一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9851.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9870.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個初犯跟再犯我寫了一篇正式的文章有去提基本上整個設計應該是當初為了海洛因現在都是安非他命整個已經不一樣了當初為了觀察樂界所設計的那種階段症狀的隔離現在已經整個都不一樣了那事實上我們現在的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9873.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9893.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
兩階段設計叫觀察樂界跟強制戒制這樣的程序其實已經耗損了非常多司法人力而且最重要是他的設計還是就依照已經被廢棄的精神醫學的準則根本就已經不適用了現在已經沒有什麼先觀察然後有癮沒有癮有癮的就去戒沒有癮的就不戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9895.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9918.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這種觀念早就在精神醫學都已經被揚棄掉了我們現在精神醫學已經從第4版進到第5版了啦所以換句話說 這個錯誤的 或者我們不說已經過時的機制應該趕快換掉那換句話說呢 我最後的建議就是說為了減輕大家的負擔 也是正確的立法把這個初犯再犯我們毒品危害防治條例第20條 直接把他給廢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9921.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9943.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
最簡單的一個案件最簡單就是他到底該還起訴就還起訴該起訴就起訴不用把這個出犯再犯當成他的一個構成要件化否則在適用法律上很困難然後呢一樣把它回到最彈性簡化的做法以後呢一個案件進來大家如果覺得說應該給他還起訴機會行事政策就多做 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9944.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9944.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9973.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9986.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
謝謝林警察官那下一位我們請紀凱峰法官那待會我先宣告一下待會本席發言完畢之後我們休息5分鐘請紀法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9999.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10028.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
主席、各位委員還有我們司法院法務部各位長官還有在座各位專家學者大家好我是台灣高等法院刑事庭法官紀凱峰今天很高興有這個機會應主席的邀請來這邊跟各位做這個報告剛才我的同事們可能跟委員還有跟全國國民有分享了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10029.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10056.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們法官日常工作那些辛苦的時態但我今天在這裡我也不想說再好像多去講一些好像我們法官真的工作很辛苦很累就像是剛才李老師講的全國民眾可能會說誰不累啊我今天打算從另外一個角度來跟各位委員還有跟全國國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10058.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10083.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
來 換個角度來思考一下我請問大家我們需要的是一個什麼樣的法官我們對於法官的理想的形象應該是什麼我們是希望一個重視形式主義小鼻子小眼睛的法官來審判各位的案件還是說我們是希望一個具有廣博的知識 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10085.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10107.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
開放的心胸可以認真聽審專注在做正確的判斷上面的法官我們希望是哪一種法官呢我相信答案應該是不證自明的當然是後者不是前者可是我在這裡必須跟各位報告以我擔任法官20餘年的經驗來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10110.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10133.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我們的訴訟制度其實培養出來的就是前者的法官就是小鼻子、小眼睛、重視形式主義的法官很難引導我們的法官去用一種具有比較開放的心胸甚至日常生活當中可以培養自己具有廣博的知識專注在做出正確判斷的法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10140.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10168.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我的同事們剛才提到說我們的日常生活其實很辛苦都會被案件所淹沒可是我在這裡要跟各位說明跟全國國民說明其實我們法官不是怕辛苦啊我們怕的是無意義的虛耗我們怕的是被形式主義這些制度的規定虛耗我們的人生我們日常加班那有什麼呢我們週末假日晚上來加班那有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10172.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10198.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
但是假如我們把時間都耗在撰寫那些無意義的判決理由然後被無意義的訴訟程序所拖垮那為什麼我們不回家陪小孩好了所以我今天要跟各位分享的主軸是我們法官有限的經歷不能被形式主義所虛耗講到這裡我跟各位分享一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10200.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10228.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我前幾年有這個機會由司法院派送到美國紐約大學亞美法研究中心擔任訪問學者在那裡中心要求我可以跟紐約大學法學院的教授做一場演講主題就是說明我們台灣大陸法系的刑事訴訟制度跟美國有什麼不一樣我只講了幾個主軸我說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10229.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10255.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我們台灣的刑事訴訟程序大概有幾個特徵跟美國很不一樣的我挑出來幾個主軸第一我們的刑事訴訟法要求我們的法官必須賺你詳盡的判決理由不能掛一漏萬而且對於被告提出的所有的答辯或是有利於被告的所有的證據我們要逐一說明駁斥他的理由假如是有罪判決的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10257.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10285.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
第二我們的二審是完全的副審制叫Denovo就等於是New Trial 等於是重新的審判我們的二審可以完全的推翻一審的認定當事人在二審可以提出新的攻擊防禦方法而且可以申請調查所有在一審沒有提過的證據那假如一審的判決沒有寫到那麼的精緻的話就會冒著一個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10287.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10306.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
就是我們的判決會變成是當然違背法令的判決就是判決不被理由的當然違背法令就冒著被第三審撤銷的風險我講到這裡我還沒講其他重點喔下面的教授馬上舉手發問他的問題就是說欸 Mr.G你講的是真的嗎這樣你們的訴訟制度不是非常沒有效率我說欸你答對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10309.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10334.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我心裡面很感嘆阿美國的刑事訴訟程序是世界出名的沒效率我竟然被他們的教授批評說我們的訴訟制度更沒效率可是就是事實所以今天造成我們法官需要的三大原因我這邊總結起來其實還有其他的可是我挑了我自己認為最重要的三個第一個就是按照我剛才講的按照我們的刑事訴訟法第310條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10337.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10356.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我們的判決理由要非常非常的詳細而且要交代所有不利呃 要駁斥被告駁斥所有那些我們不採信證據的所有那些繁瑣事項我們都要一一交代 交代很清楚即便我們一開始得心證的理由已經寫得夠詳細了要不然會冒著一個風險被第三層撤銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10358.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10386.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
再來我們的書證調查程序非常形式主義我們的刑事重法164、165條的規定是說我們要針對書證跟物證我們在證據調查程序要逐一的朗讀或逐一的宣告要旨這莫名其妙的莫名其妙假如當事人已經請律師早就已經透過閱卷的方式了解了所有的卷證但是我們書證程序裡面我們還是要那麼形式主義逐一的宣告、朗讀、提示並告要旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10387.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10413.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
就造成那麼沒完啊可能像我在金融廳我們有些案件光唸可以唸個好幾天欸然後再來我們的二審非常沒有效率啊當事人在一審已經提過的證據到二審他還是可以再提出來再申請調查戰人一再反覆的問也造成民怨完全沒有受限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10414.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10440.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
所以我這邊懇請大院還有我們全國人民都可以了解我們法官呢不是怕辛苦我們是怕我們有限的精力會被這些我剛剛上述所講的這些形式主義所虛耗我們加班沒有關係可是我們應該把精力專注在剛剛那個徐政權院長所提到的專心的聽審我們應該專心在做最好的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10442.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10467.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
而不是被這些形式主義的規定耗掉我們無謂的生命所以我這邊提到了三點修法的建議第一個就是請修法簡化我們的判決理由有罪判決理由呢我們原則上只要記載證據標目就好了必要的時候呢才需要簡要的說明證據取捨的理由不需要再話捨天竺對於要駁斥被告辯解的瑣碎理由逐一詳細的交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10468.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10487.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
而且特定輕罪的被告,假如沒有爭議的話,甚至我們可以考慮當庭宣誓筆錄來代替判決書只要在當事人有爭議的情況之下,要申請的情況之下,我們再補作判決第二,請修法簡化我們的書證調查程序,也是關於《刑事重法》第164跟165條 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10490.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10505.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
在現在被告腳有辯護律師而且他的越卷權幾乎不受限制的情況之下我們何需要在證據調查程序逐一再提示或宣讀書證的內容呢?完全沒有必要我們只要概括了提示證據清單或標目幾個只要這個透過修法解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10511.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10538.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
其實可以很大程度上減輕我們法官的負擔第三,請修法支持我們第二審改成嚴格的續審制基本上就跟國民法官法一樣不要說只有適用在國民法官法我們通常訴訟程序一樣可以適用也就是說當事人假如要在二審提出以前沒有提過的新證據的話必須要受嚴格限制原則上不應該准許這樣才是一個有效率的司法制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10540.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10565.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
一審的事實認定除非我們認定有嚴重違背經驗法則或邏輯的情況之下否則原則上我們二審不應該撤銷這樣才是一個有效率的司法制度不能那個程序、那個證據一玩再玩虛耗我們的時間所以最後我想做個總結我們的法官其實不是怕辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10568.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10597.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們只是怕說我們有限的精力會被虛耗在無謂的形式主義上面所以請大院還有請全國國民都可以支持我上述所說的幾點讓我們的法官呢不要再被形式主義所虛耗精力謝謝大家好 謝謝那我這邊先做程序上的宣告第一個就是因為待會有本席發言所以我請黃國昌委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10598.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10626.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那第二個本期發言完畢之後休息5分鐘那其實有關這個司法改革然後去減輕司法官的工作量不管在民進黨的中召委以及我還有黃國昌總召我們都有高度的共識就是我們一定要做好這件事情所以接下來我們會辦很多場公聽會那再請大家給我們多一點建議那我們一起努力然後把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10628.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10653.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
把這個制度把它改善接下來我們再補充介紹到場的委員莊瑞雄委員那我們就請洪國昌委員代理好 謝謝 現在有我在但主席那我們下一位請我們的立委吳宗憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10658.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10677.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
各位大家早安我在這邊想跟各位報告一件事情就是因為我自己之前有20年的檢察官經歷所以我非常能夠體會所有在場的法官檢察官目前工作量的辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10678.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10693.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那我剛聽了在場的黃律師、蕭律師還有蔡律師的說法那完全印證了這段時間我同期同學以及學長紛紛離開司法體系他們告訴了我一句話就說辭職治百病 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10694.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10721.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
在當法官檢察官的時候身體都出了很多狀況家庭也出狀況但辭職之後回來看我們的時候就是榮光煥發那到底是誰造成了今天這個樣子而且我們的辛苦並沒有讓人民對於司法更信任那這個司法改革就是完全失敗所以我一直提出一件事情千萬不要跟我說司法改革成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10721.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10745.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
因為當人民的信任度沒有提高卻讓法官檢察官的工作量更加繁重那就不叫做司法改革成功所以7年前的那一次司改會議我個人是對他的評價是完全不及格而且離及格還很遠我相信這是每一位在場的實務界的司法同仁都能夠理解的那我在這邊要提一個東西就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10747.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10774.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我認為啊就我自己看那個院檢的高層其實做的最不負責任的事情就是說補人補人補人講補人是最不動頭腦最不負責任的一件事情誰不知道要補人但是問題笨蛋問題是出在制度你這樣子制度玩下去你補再多人都沒有用大家還是累得半死所以說補人是最不負責任的長官講出來的話我講這個我負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10776.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10798.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我自己一路觀察整個制度下來問題就出在這邊好像剛剛的法官說的他也點出了幾個問題點那我之前也有提過我國20幾年前抄了美國的交互結論過來結果人家美國的交互結論他玩一次就被人家罵一點效率都沒有我們玩兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10800.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10815.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
這不是更瘋狂嗎所以我沒有辦法理解為什麼我們的司法院這段時間你主責是《刑事訴訟法》但是你完全不去管這件事情那你不就累死所有的法官也累死公訴檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10815.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10833.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
因為你同一個東西玩兩次而且你二審還可以非清一審的判決那這個到底在玩什麼所以我覺得這個都很離譜啦而且20幾年了卻完全沒有改那到底在做什麼我們拿農業時代的制度在玩今天這個時代這是難以想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10836.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10861.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
再來有關人員補充的部分我想跟各位報告人員補充真的不是問題因為缺額一直越來越多因為離職率很高缺額越來越多那你一直說要補人但是你卻沒有讓制度把真正有戰力的留下來結果我很多同期同學或我的學長有20年的經歷20幾年的經歷照理說他們在審理案件的時候是經驗值最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10862.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10882.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
身體還沒有全壞掉的狀況下結果這些中間分子戰力超強的分子一個一個離開我們一直補新的人進來但是新的人他還是需要時間去培養他的經驗值所以這些人進來他完全沒有辦法補足空缺下來的戰力這是目前司法遇到了很大的一個問題所以你一直喊補人 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10883.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10899.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我跟各位報告這是在騙基層的法官檢察官這是長官在騙你們這些基層的法官檢察官因為補人永遠不是主要的問題問題還是出在制度你到底給了一個法官檢察官怎麼樣的遊戲規則或把他們搞死的遊戲規則而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10902.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10921.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
所以我認為大家今天不要一直拿補人這個東西當然補人我也是支持可是不要拿這個東西來騙大家因為這根本不是重點那今天像林達檢察官他也提到了很多施放寬92條是不是職權送債役應該要把它取消像我一直主張我一直跟法務部說 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10923.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10939.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
緩解訴處分、職權送債那根本就要把它刪掉啊我幹了20年檢察官我多少職權送債我從來也沒有遇過一件後來把我的職權送債認為要做其他處分他只是叫我修改一些知微末節的小東西那這個制度存在的意義在哪裡你從數字來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10941.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10962.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
他變更為非緩解度處分這幾乎那個比例是低到很誇張那你為什麼要虛耗二省的檢察官能力像這個制度這麼久了卻沒有人改這個也很奇怪那書類簡化 院檢都在喊書類簡化但是你書類簡化你真的有在推動嗎那你有在追蹤說到底書類簡化了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10962.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10980.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我只知道一件事我以前在當檢察官的時候我也想寫簡化的書類但是我的檢察長、我的相約、我的主任跟我說你不要寫簡化的書類到時候書類送審會吃虧那這樣搞下去大家不敢寫簡化的書類或是即便你時任了你寫簡化的書類大家還是意見很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10981.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10998.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
好 那我剛提到的幾個 譬如說檢方你是不是92條你要好好的改一下 院方你是不是要把認罪跟否認跟認罪的刑度要拉大我一直沒有辦法理解為什麼主席不好意思喔 讓給我一點點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11001.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11012.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我必須講一個啦我今天待過司法機關我待過行政機關當過機關我來立法機關行政、立法、司法三權我都走過我真的不知道長官你們在幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11014.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11039.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
你今天司法院你讓法官獨立審判沒有錯我們無權置會沒有錯但是承認否認你刑度不拉大你就告知檢察官告知法官所有的被告到庭到警察那裡不承認檢察官那裡不承認一審不承認反正我二審承認刑度判的也一樣我幹嘛那麼笨蛋要提早承認結果呢搞下來是不是搞死這些在做偵查在審理的法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11040.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11055.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
就你們我講的都大家檢方律師都喊了很久司法院永遠不做任何處理就給我回一句獨立審判那你可以宣導嘛那我不懂為什麼你要搞慘這些法官呢這些檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11057.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11079.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這個都是可以馬上做的事情你承認否認刑度你竟然要抄美國的刑事訴訟制度美國承認否認刑度差多少就我們這裡在玩什麼東西的不但把那個沒有效率的制度玩兩次之外你承認否認刑度還一樣多一個月而已那誰要來認罪啊所以這個都是司法院你該處理的東西吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11081.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11087.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
譬如替代判決 這也很快可以做到啊沒有正義的東西是不是就不要再寫那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11088.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11111.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
判決理由 因為判決書厚厚一本 當事人只看主文啦你其他是寫給二審看的 寫給其他法官看的那幹嘛自己搞自己 很多東西喔 不需要讓這個判決書這麼這麼漏漏等的 是不是該刪就把它刪掉很多東西用筆錄取代判決 或是根本就不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11112.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11121.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
有這麼多的判決理由要寫在裡面或是簡單的條列化或像剛剛有律師提的就像罰單一樣這麼簡單勾一勾簡單寫幾個字就好來簡化偵查書類或裁判書類的製作時間最後我想提一個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11134.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11163.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
該除罪話的東西我們還是要盡量推除罪話公然無辱不違憲其實我覺得這一點我可以接受但是它不代表不能除罪話那個是憲法有沒有違憲的問題但是在法律上面我們可以除罪啊它沒有必要存在嘛我罵你一句髒話結果我要用全民那麼多我們全民繳的稅金司法預算是全民的稅金我要拿全國人的錢來滿足你的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11165.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11192.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這個沒有道理嘛那如果你今天要告你要告民事訴訟那你自己去繳裁判費去告啊為什麼一堆檢察官要把他放進來然後公然無路如果不除罪的話現在網路那麼發達基隆的人告屏東的就屏東要來屏東的被告要來基隆開庭就到最後不起訴或判無罪這不就人民的損失嗎所以這個東西該除罪的話我們是不是早就應該要要積極的做這件事情了 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11193.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11201.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
最後我再講一個我上一次在這邊質詢部長以及司法院秘書長的時候我曾經提過一個數據我是在2020年離開檢方的2019年的數據到去年的數據全國檢方總受案量增加了47%也就是全國新案多了快五成 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11220.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11249.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那我再看一下房價這7年是增加了98%也就是我們也就是檢方新案的增加率跟房價差不多了我為什麼要講到房價年輕人對於現在的房價有多無奈多想躺平做到工作再多也買不起房子有多無奈多想躺平現在的法官檢察官對於現在案件量就有多無奈多想躺平 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11250.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11267.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
因為你再怎麼努力你還是結不完那但是法官、假官不能躺平他是拚命地做拿自己的家庭生活、拿自己的健康去跟他拚麻煩一下沒有合理的數量絕對不可能有 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11268.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11298.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
讓人民信任的司法品質當年7年多前蔡政府搞的司法改革是說讓人民信任司法但是我跟你講這個改下去讓人民更不信任司法而已因為你的司法品質只會越來越爛你把簡單的事情全部複雜化那這樣搞下來的司法品質就會像今天這樣子然後搞到法官人生走不下去然後檢察官法官大量離職請各位長官一定要記得這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11299.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11300.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
好 謝謝吳宗憲委員依照先前的宣告 我們現在休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11328.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11328.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11747.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11758.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
現在繼續開會我們先做會議時間的處理公聽會上午的會議時間我們繼續進行到所有發言都結束為止接下來我們請黃一鋒副教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11771.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11786.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
主席、各位委員、各位學者、專家大家好很榮幸有今天的機會來參加公聽會我在淡江大學公共行政系任教所以我就從行政管理跟人事行政的角度來提供個人的潛見第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11789.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11790.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
強化訴訟外紛爭解決機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11807.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11818.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
機構查詢平台,供民眾查詢利用,並且持續透過網站、媒體及研習課程等多元管道,宣導訴訟外紛爭解決機制而推動調解業務,確實對減輕法院的審判負擔,縮減基層工作負荷有所幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11825.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11825.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11852.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11869.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
提供更多的協助跟指導這部分有很長的努力、很長的工作要做、很長的路要走所以我相信應該要持續的再去做這些努力也就是說要讓ADR制度有效發揮定分指針以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11870.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11870.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
第二點： |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11893.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11894.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11906.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11906.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
這些是值得肯定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11926.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11945.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
但是我要提出來是說我們是不是可以考慮把AI人工智慧這樣的機制把它放進來舉例來說在學界來講我們現在對OpenAI對ChopGTT很多學者開始藉由ChopGTT的協助來製作研究計畫書 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11946.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11973.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那根據經驗你只要設定的問題是正確的然後他提供給你的資料會越來越精確當然我們知道ChapTT也很會唬爛可是只要你有足夠專業你就可以去修改他的內容然後再繼續不斷地更改你的問題之後這個後面的成果就會越來越精確那有一些國際期刊已經開始接受用AI來做審查工作也就是說有學者去做過研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11974.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12000.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
A.I.協助寫出來的審查意見就是文章的評論意見跟真人實際做的已經有相當大的相似度也就是說這個精確度已經到75%了然後甚至有一些國際期刊也允許用A.I.來製作論文的某一些部分當然這是有限定的因為論文不能假手A.I.來幫你做但是我相信這樣的精神對 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12002.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12028.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
法官來講他在判決書的製作如果像剛剛許院長說的耗掉了他40%的工作時間剛剛那個州法官也提到他其實只有一天能夠來做這個什麼判決書的製作那事實上如果我們有很大量的司法院的資料輸進去之後然後再適當的運用AI法官基本上可以減輕很多前端作業的耗費時間的事情然後能夠專注的去把 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12029.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12040.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
他的時間放在審判的思考上面我們知道剛剛提到這個很重要的工作就在做審判那這個判決書的品質能夠提升其實對法官也有幫助然後能夠減輕他的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12042.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12065.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那我個人覺得說其實這裡面還有一個問題是這幾年也有人質疑那如果引進AI會不會以後就AI幫你做判案就不用人了那事實上是不會的因為這樣的資料輸進去之後所有的確認、更正都還必須由司法委員自己來做他不可能取代法官也不可能替法官做判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12066.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12085.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以我相信這個輔助工具如果我們對資訊科技要有所引進的話應該可以把AI特別是類似這幾年ChopGTT或者Bing這一類的軟體那能夠加以運用第三點我個人覺得我要建議是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12087.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12115.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
司法院應該參考原額評鑑的精神以專案小組的方式來做整個組織診斷分析然後提出實際更符合需要的原額需求我會這樣講是因為說我們回過頭來去思考訴訟案件不斷增加造成司法院人力不足這是我們今天討論當然檢查系統也一樣的問題就也都是案件增加所以造成人力不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12116.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12132.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那這個問題是不是直接增加員額就可以解決呢?剛剛吳委員提到補人是一個最簡單的方法但是補人是個騙人的辦法這有可能為什麼呢?因為我們從問題解決就是Problem solving這個觀點來看我們要循著了解問題確認原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12135.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12151.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
選擇及執行對策這樣三個步驟去解決問題所以你直接認為說我現在人不夠所以我就補人這樣一個機械式的反應方式它並不夠理性客觀換句話說有可能補人可以解決問題但補人能不能解決全部的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12152.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12152.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
根本解 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12176.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12187.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
包括剛剛吳委員提到的制度性的問題那這樣的做法我們才可能去把問題徹底解決避免說頭痛於頭腳痛於腳的這個偏頗那各位知道RCA其實來自 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12189.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12189.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12210.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12218.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
讓這個方案因為他提出了五千多個原格確實相當龐大的那他要有足夠充分的理由跟證據來告訴立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12220.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12248.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
因為立法院負責預算審查那剛剛如同黃國昌委員提到的所有這些工作即使支持還是要對人民負責對納稅人負責所以我建議說這個工作應該要做因為照我們中央機關政府機關總言而法第9條的規定司法院及所屬機關原額管理規劃、調整、監督及評鑑由司法院辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12249.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12273.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
要含執行政院指定相關的機關來對應當然我們知道司法院有可能會疑慮說原額評鑑會影響審判獨立或者影響日常業務所以我剛剛為什麼會提出一個類似專案小組的概念就是說我們參考原額評鑑的精神但不一定要照那個方式走 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12275.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12302.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
現在行政院做的原則評論非常認真是他要到實地訪試然後收集很多現場的資料但是我們知道實地訪試很可能會對法官造成工作上的負擔或者甚至影響所以那一段如果能夠做適當的調整而能夠收集實際的資料如說剛剛周法官跟黃律師所親身提供的這樣的工作經驗事實上這是一個非常好的基礎資料但是我們聽到都是案例都是個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12303.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12330.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
司法委員應該有責任做全面性的檢視然後把這些工作整理起來那這個我們在人事行政上稱為叫工作分析也就是說工作分析之後有具體的資料然後我們再去做分類、做整理、做評估然後我們才能去計算出到底需要多少人力我相信這樣的方向應該是司法院可以來做的我剛才看到黃國昌委員秀出的一張是4月24號的照片那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12331.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12355.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
敬佩黃委員對這些實事求是認真要求的一個精神但是我也相信也許我們應該給司法院多一點體諒是這樣的工作分析這樣的工作診斷的工作其實不是從4月24號到今天就能完成的它至少需要幾個月的時間來落實去做調查跟分析工作所以如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12355.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12380.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
司法院真的需要能夠去提升、增加員額我個人也主張應該要提出具體證據來那剛剛這樣的專案小組的功能也許可以有所幫助第4點我想提供一點對員額的﹐法官員額的一點個人心得剛剛聽了幾位司法界的前輩們提到的工作上的經驗我個人比較長時間參與到 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12382.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12409.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
人事總署有關原額評鑑的工作我熟悉那一套過程但是我也覺得說我們經常會用經濟效率的觀點來評估公務人員的工作量可是法官的工作可能除了量之外很重要一點是一個數值跟品質的問題換句話說如果我們讓法官每天就是暗讀牢行只是趕著結案的壓力之下其實沒有一個法官會快樂的但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12410.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12410.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
謝謝黃教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12438.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12440.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好 接下來我們請林理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12452.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12470.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
主席在場委員以及我們司法院法務部的長官還有我們專家學者大家午安大家好我們介紹這個案子現在感謝立法院給我們邀請那我們介紹案子有點趕那真的有這麼多題目啊其實看這有一點複雜也不是十分可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12472.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12496.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
講完了那我在想說怎麼去回應這樣的一個議題然後更重要的其實剛才我們看了這麼多學者、專家的一個意見其實我還蠻高興的為什麼呢?就是大家共識還蠻高的共識還蠻高的因為大家講的內容都是要減量、提升品質、重視效率只是從各不同的專業、從民事、刑庭這樣來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12497.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12523.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那我這邊也在這簽一下我們在後面講就比較好講可是我怎麼樣我接了自己的專長因為我是留日的然後我自己有長期觀察我們這個臺灣的思改變動那我覺得我們這麼多共識而這些共識可能不是我們在場學者我們省檢變有相當的共識那現在重點是好像大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12524.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12539.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
接下來該怎麼做?有沒有決心做?或是想不想做?所以我現在比較大的重點介紹就是說我們最近這幾年的思改的方向其實跟日本還蠻接近的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12540.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12561.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
所以我現在就是在大家提出來的共識下我提一些相關的資料給大家有一些更有勇氣或有信心再做下去也就是說我印象很深刻我2000年在日本留學的時候剛好日本也是在做他們類似我們2016年2017年的司改國師會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12564.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12588.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
其實那年代是李登輝李總統那年代也有一個司改的全國的一個全國大會那其實他們在西元2000年的時候其實他們就用百年用司法的那個明治維新的概念來做他們的司改那所以我覺得他們那時候評估或他們現在的一個走向其實就奠定在那當初的一個認識上 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12591.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12599.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
更重要的是我們跟日本有相同的民情或是我們的一些價值可能比較接近那我先有一個統計數字就是說我這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12603.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12631.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我們發現日本對於他們的治安他們是覺得很有把握的我們再看一下另外就是他們司法公信他們判決人民對他的信賴也是高的基本上這是可能跟我們台灣其實我覺得台灣一般來講對治安的一個肯定也是蠻高的就是說司法公信這一點也是我們這一次全國司改2017年的全國司改會議很重要的一個解決重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12632.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12653.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那接下來就是我們看一下日本他們維持這樣的一個司法品質那個審判的公信那因為今天因為我接到資料可能是我們不然民眾黨或是我們民進黨都是提出一個關於檢察官的一個檢察官助理的一個一個原理配置的一個法制法的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12654.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12681.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
那這個我也贊成 我也贊成可是我們如果相對的資源或是有這樣擴充的源頭的話那我們是不是有更好的一個選擇這是我今天一個很重要的主題之一因為我們看一下我們台灣的人口這邊有一個統計數字我們台灣人口大概2300萬那日本大概1億2000萬所以我們差5倍的差距可是你看我們的檢察官的數量其實他比例來看其實不算低 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12682.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12691.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
其實也不算低也就是說相對於日本的我們日本有將近2000那我們台灣就大概1300 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12692.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12693.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12718.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12727.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
一個最好的一個關鍵上我在想說怎麼去描述呢可能大家比較熟的就是可能剛才有老師看到我之前給報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12729.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12747.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
怎麼會放一個松榮子我想這個是也是在這世紀初的時候一個日本的HERO的一個很重要的一個連續訓練因為他當我在放映的時候 剛剛我也是在那邊我引起很多人想去考司法書館 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12751.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12767.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
後面他有一個小小的結局就是這個司法司官宋文子最後是想去當副檢察官也就是說為什麼我今天要提到這個制度我是覺得就是說我們檢察官剛剛也提到我們檢查那個量 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12768.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12794.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
或是指我覺得我們的努力或是我們的品質我覺得依我的經驗來講不屬於日本檢察官可是就是說日本檢察官他們怎麼去開日本檢察官的工作為什麼他們2000這樣的一個人數、人力他可以去維持類似我剛才看到那個那個件數、刑事案件的件數其實或是我們起訴例或是那個其實差不多齁那差不多齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12795.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12811.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我覺得就是 他們看日本檢查案就把它當作是我剛剛這邊有提到就是我們才講狐狸跟所謂的刺蝟我覺得他們把檢查案當作是一個那是那個金庸小說的倚天劍屠龍刀 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12812.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12835.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
你檢察官要讓他負責比較重大的案件所以我剛才提到這個孫文子他為什麼要當副檢察就是說剛才很多我們前面的實務的先進也提到有些輕微的案件是不是可以讓不要都讓檢察官這樣暗堵這樣子日夜這樣操勞所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12839.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12860.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我剛才提到日本他們在戰後去正式去處理這個定位一個叫互檢察這個角色然後在2000年前後他們在做司改的時候他們重新評估到底這個制度要怎麼維持也就是說他那時候連他跟我們現在想像一樣欸對啊是不是要增加檢察官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12862.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12870.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
人力等等之類的所以他們做一個我這邊有引導因為時間的關係我沒有辦法去把他的內容做詳細的介紹所以捷運這樣講就是說他們去評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12875.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12895.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
在他們整個司改議題這麼多要做這麼多事情人民對司法的品質或司法的需求就這麼大那該怎麼做那想想就是這個護檢察官的制度可以再去評估看看比如說你檢察官要徵人的話那可能是國家預算啦財政的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12897.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12914.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
重點是類似我們現在他們互簡化的一個重要來源是來自於所謂檢查事務官或是公務人員體系或是民間他覺得他對於這個刑事偵查工業有興趣的話他可以進來他不僅可以緩解我們現在所謂檢查事務官的內部深切或是工作士氣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12915.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12935.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
所以我是覺得這樣的一個制度新制是不是可以再考量因為我剛才看我們人事總署好像我們檢察官的相關缺額還有400多位所以我是覺得如果說未來再改革的話是不是有可能在人力配置上另外一個重點就是我這邊特別提到雖然這些小事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12936.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12936.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12958.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12977.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們在談到很多次,我們回到常識來看,剛才很多先見也提到,我們現在副省制,真的大問題。如果從民間來看,從行政觀點的角度來看,大家分層負責,一省有一省的工作,二省有二省的重點,三省應該有它的職長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12981.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13002.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
當我們知道我們講說我們一省就是這個第一省是我們一個決定事實的一個親榮照擺很重要的機制大家就會把一省把它好好的盡心盡力把它做好不過像剛才講的我們剛才吳委員主席也提到我們教會節目為什麼玩兩次呢那你覺得那個會越變越勉嗎不會喔 不會這樣子喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13004.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13020.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
所以我看一下 我們看一下日本他們相關的數據我們未來 其實那時候許中立 許大院長他在講說我們這樣人民財產支付他很重要就是一個當然領頭羊希望能搭配配套的所謂的 類似所謂的審期資料做一個修改那這個我們已經講好久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13021.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13035.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
如果這個不改的話我就可以覺得我們大家一直在重複浪費我們的1、2、3省的資源或我們檢察官的人力的負擔那詳細的數字我就不提了可是很重要就是當你1、2省的角度任務很明確的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13036.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13062.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
大家就知道我要很珍惜我每一個步驟然後更重要的重點就是我剛才提到日本的司法改革沒有在講說什麼司法犧牲什麼解什麼問題就跟我們剛才很多先前提到的那筆錄審判的問題為什麼要這麼多筆錄呢我們剛才一直提到審判的重點就是大家在法庭裡面把事情講清楚說明白那你看第一手資料原始資料大家就把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13063.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13078.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
講清楚嘛而不是在後面那個書增越多啊在後面就變成一個作文比賽我覺得那個真的是讓我們真的疲於奔命好那最後我想這個數字我就不提了那最後是覺得配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13079.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13080.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13105.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13131.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
因為時間的關係我覺得司法的改革或是我們現在面對的其實就跟我們社會世界潮流是我們現在民間企業的主流一樣ESG案件要減量要環保然後重點是不要什麼東西都塞給法院我們真的一直大家都嘗試司法是最後一道防線可是我們要動不動不動就要利用司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13133.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13149.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
司法要有成本概念所以我是覺得我現在是最後講說要推我們司法的ESG簡單的概念就是如果大家知道我們司法成本我們檢察官的人力就是一千多名 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13151.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13173.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
該讓他是不是給他一定的職權不要什麼東西要起訴我現在你可以看看我們很多事情可能檢查不想負責或是很多民怨這個發生很多問題啦那再來就是每一個角色有他該做比如說我在下面講的檢警分流剛才那林達也提到了那92條現在92條稍微動一個字的話那可以減輕檢警很多負擔喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13177.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13205.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
關於起訴和職權在意等等都可以改最後剛才提到的副檢察官的制度檢察的助理或司法警察也就是說這些當我們要偵測檢察官助理的時候是不是相關的偵查機關它裡面角色配置我先以上提出這些概念簡單講就是我覺得聽起來早上聽到現在我覺得大家共識很高接下來就是大家要不要做 怎麼做想不想做 以上 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13208.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13231.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
謝謝理事長剛剛理事長的資料裡面有一個其實上訴大概就一層而已嘛普通法院嘛那如果說不用上訴的案子他裁判書類可以簡化你等於九成的書類都可以簡化因為書類製作是院檢最辛苦的一件事嘛那其實這要趕快研議我個人看的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13232.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13233.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
主席、專家學者、法官、檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13262.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13290.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
相關的朋友其實剛剛聽了很多大家的一些分享事實上我最近也有一些包括司法的一些不同的團體來跟我交換一些意見那我一個很深刻的感受就是說我們在推隨司法改革這麼多年就引述其中一位一個律師團體他告訴我說改來改去法官痛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13291.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13314.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
然後檢察官痛苦 警察痛苦 律師痛苦 原告痛苦 被告痛苦 通通痛苦這就讓我覺得是 那到底我們這些年來在做的很多的事情到底誰是在這個改革的過程當中覺得很滿意的 覺得不痛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13316.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13321.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那所以換言之我們可以從很多數字來看其實真的我們的司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13322.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13345.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
病得蠻嚴重的而這病得很嚴重其實就是裡面我剛剛講不管是法官、檢察官、警察、律師、原告、被告都在痛苦漩渦當中而這一波很明顯的我們的司法人員承受了很大的痛苦那我看了很多數字,比方說2016年到2023年這8年地方法院受理的件數從290萬大增到364萬這個其實是真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13350.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13376.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
蠻恐怖的數字 漲幅高達25%那對此法官人數從2071人增加到2196人 只成長了6%所以才會今天發生說今天法官不堪負荷的情況啊從這個數字上你就可以看到對法官來講 前線司法人員來講 他要面對的是什麼面對就是說 要嘛就把自己壓榨到不堪負荷 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13377.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13394.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
要嘛可能就會要面臨要不要裁判品質降低的問題所以這個是大環境上我覺得給司法人員很大很大我們講結構上如果不改變的話那造成的問題就越來越嚴重那另外新收案件數2016年到2023年民事是從63.73到61.86看起來數字有點下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13401.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13409.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
但是平均一案 結一案的所需日數從144.3日大幅暴增到192.23那形式的話 收件數從59.58為增61.51但是終結所需日數是71.65增加到 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13428.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13450.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
總結日數在分別增加33%和40%你看看案件數增加然後這個總結就是審案的時程也增加那你當然就捲進來我覺得就能夠理解為什麼我們的司法人員他今天負擔的這麼這麼大甚至產生所謂相關的悲劇那因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13450.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13457.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
今天我覺得是一個好的開始事實上不只法官 我看到檢察官的數字也是檢察官的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13459.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13478.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
2014年的數字是檢察官是有1398人那到現在3月是1413人10年增加15人但是呢平均每年每位檢察官每年偵查的新收件數是從2014年763.5件增加到2023年的1135.1件漲幅高達 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13488.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13507.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
48.7所以從案件量來說很明顯的不管是法官跟檢察官都是處在一個案件暴漲的一個狀態所以我覺得今天事實上聽到很多專家學者對於說怎麼樣在案件上其實不只是說今天外面在講說要增加我們司法官員額的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13509.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13537.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
當然是解決問題的路徑之一但更重要是整個結構性的改變增加我們的審案的效率以及審案的品質那這個部分我覺得才有辦法去治本的來去解決很多問題那比方說我也看到就是說很多的一些改革的一些意見包括說要減緊分工也可以參考日本跟美國的一些法例 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13537.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13557.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
因為我們現在大概111年地檢署起訴人數65%是屬最重本刑5年以下有期徒刑之罪所以也有看到一些意見在研究說針對性質單純的犯罪可以採行日本美國的這個立法例檢警分工那把一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13558.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13584.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
法律要件單純案件情節輕微告訴哪一論的違罪交給警察然後聘請律師退休檢管做法律顧問來確保法律程序我覺得各方的很多意見我這邊有聽到那也會再請教我們的專家學者希望大家一起來精進我們現在司法體系當中所面臨的問題 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那接下來我們請柯中教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13595.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13620.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
委員 還有在座幾位委員還有在座我們司法院跟法務部的長官還有在座的學者專家 大家好我是臺灣大學柯克中那因為這個上個禮拜臨時接到這個任務那稍微時間有點趕因為剛好我自己這段時間事情也稍微比較多一點所以來不及提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13621.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13621.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13640.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13640.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13662.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13683.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
對司法對社會的公信力的問題也就是說它其實某種程度上是環環相扣的當我們希望提升司法在整個社會裡面特別是對國民的司法公信力的信服度的時候它也會轉回過頭來變成是對司法環境裡面工作的相關人員的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13684.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13699.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
不管你是在客觀的數據比如說我對案件流程的管考乃至於他的辦案期限的要求甚至是要求對相關判決理由的說明他會一定程度上產生影響也就是說儘管我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13700.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13722.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
考慮到說希望今天我們的公聽會的主題確實是在司法環境如何能夠去在未來能夠去做改善但它其實同一個時間也會是一個對司法就是說這整個社會對司法有什麼樣一個期待但我必須要回過頭來講說其實這個是環環相扣但又不全然是同一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13723.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13749.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
程序上的一個問題因為我必須要講比如說因為我自己本身在司法的領域裡面有一半算一半因為我曾經也本來是在司法體系裡面工作只是我沒有完成那一個訓練然後之後我轉到做了學術上的研究我另外一半目前為止他還是司法環境裡面工作的人作為眷屬可以這樣講就是說其實我很清楚我知道我太太她平常工作的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13750.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13776.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
他幾乎在法官的時間裡面投入了很大的他的時間跟他的生命講白一點我是要父兼母職因為太太做不了的事情我就必須要幫忙去做還好我剛好做了這一件基本上我時間上比較能夠安排我必須要講其實學界也有自己本身的壓力不是我想剛剛前面那個呂教授也提到就是說這個社會哪一個人不辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13777.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13797.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
沒有錯,每個人都很辛苦可是為什麼司法這件事情必須要提上檯面上來講因為我自己對自己的工作要求這是一回事情但司法確實是關乎到人民的他希望獲得國家給他一個正義上的最後一個支撐那也因此我想今天很開心 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13799.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13822.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
高興聽到其實在這個地方我們三黨基本上對司法改革如何去做改善環境的這個部分其實有很高度的共識當然在做法上面來講如何能夠去兼顧司法品質的提升跟對人民的公信力的說服這件事情我相信在這個過程當中裡面是一個非常重要關注的重點也會在我們今天午朝委的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13823.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13850.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
堅持底下這個工作能夠有未來有幾個進展的可能性那我想就因為我書面上沒有提那我就用口頭上的方式來一一的談幾個問題第一個是關於人力增補因為其實今天不管是司法院跟法務部其實都談到這個問題隨著人員的大量流失不管他是為了身心的緣故或者是為了他自己本身的職業生涯的規劃或者因為退休保障的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13851.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13866.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
無論如何現在司法在第一線工作人員確實有大量流失的這個問題增補人力的話我想分兩個層次去談一個是法官人力增補的問題但另外一個其實蠻重要的是協助法官把 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13867.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13867.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13886.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13904.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那回到我們講剛剛法官或檢察官的這個他的中心的期待我們其實很清楚知道法官應該被要求是在聽審跟做判斷上面這個是他核心工作整個法院或檢察署其實都是為了要支援這樣一個工作而存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13904.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13926.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
因此這些資源的人力的配置 包括我們幾位黨團 其實都有提到一些關於法院組織法包括行政法院組織法或是法院組織法相關的人力的配置能夠讓它法制化 進入到協助法官跟檢察官 把他核心工作這件事情做好吳寧這個當然也非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13927.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13944.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
人力的這個部分我相信主管部會、主管的院會、院部都會自己來提出他自己的相關的想法跟規劃那我只是提一件事情就是說因為人力的增加未來勢必涉及到對人力的相關的管考跟他的這個數量的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13946.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13974.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我說實在話我自己以前曾經在司法官訓練所的時候我們當時候有一些請外界外面的一些資深的律師來做一些課程上演講的時候當時我印象很深刻有一位合夥的就大署的合夥律師來司法官訓練所裡面去演講的時候他說我是絕對不會轉任法官的啦我說為什麼不轉任法官因為我在事務所我做一件事情我可以找好多個人來幫我完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13975.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14003.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
但我如果去當法官,我不僅要從齊別開始排擠,而且我就一個人那我當時聽到這一句話的時候,其實對我來講是一個蠻大的一個震撼就是為什麼,包括我自己在內,現在其實也有招募學者希望他能夠轉任法官可是這件事情不太容易在學者群裡面產生一個共識除了齊別的考慮以外,專業上無法配合這個是當然我們可以講法官也可以從考試裡面去禁用,但 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14004.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14029.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
一旦我們現在100多個人入局的份數一下子大幅擴增的時候一定會將來產生司法的這些專門我們希望他去做法官檢察官的這一邊的那個品質當然不是說一定壞只是說當從原先的100個人一下子擴增的200、300個那這個時候要短期去補上這個人數的時候恐怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14032.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14050.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
這個確實會產生在一定程度上的我相信因為進來以後不是隨隨便便你要讓他走人就走人的問題這個有許多的這個你的資源分配就包括你的法官評鑑檢察官評鑑制度這些都必須要能夠配套制度可能都要去做對應的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14052.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14052.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14070.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
14085.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
他本身有他的極致跟限制講白一點就是我不是受 比如說我不是 我自己是研究稅的但你叫我去看帳部 憑證每一個東西去做審查這個說實在是超出我能力的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
14086.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14107.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我相信跟我同樣背景的法律人的法官他在各案裡面的判斷裡面他也其實是需要輔助人力來幫他去做許多的這些的先前的輔助工作的這些的完成他才能夠把他的工作特別是你今天在做聽審跟判決你要做判斷的時候他才能夠把這件工作做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14110.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14128.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
法院法官補助人力,包括轉任、考試禁用、支援法官檢察官的相關輔助系統,我相信司法院跟法務部會有自己本身的規劃這是第一個我要談第二個是案件管考,因為時間很有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14134.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14150.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
因為身體無法負荷退下去其實談得非常深刻的一個案件觀考這個地方我還是講一下其實因為檢查或者刑事還有行政訴訟跟民事訴訟其實我們的重點會不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14151.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14168.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
有一些東西是著重在他們事實判斷認定的問題有些特別是我自己本身是在行政訴訟部門的這個部分我們其實有很多是法律解釋適用的疑義事實反而他沒有那麼大的爭議那法律解釋適用這個部分又跟我們的立法品質有很密切的關聯性 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14169.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14169.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14185.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14213.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
理由的簡化某些程度上事實認定可以簡單去做說明如果今天有照相機你今天交通違規當然很快就可以去做認定這一點無庸置疑可是許多比較是複雜的法律解釋適用的問題它其實還是必須要透過理由書能夠去讓那個判斷的結果能夠具有對國民的說服力這個是提升司法公信力一個蠻重要的一環那第三個我們講設備增進我自己剛好對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14214.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14231.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我簡單再補充兩分鐘就好就是說我自己曾經擔任懲戒法院裡面的參審員我自己去開庭的結果我自己的感覺就是說當然我們就整個在法庭裡面我們要等待把筆錄寫好就整個開庭大家進行了很熱烈的時候問問問 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14233.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14248.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
好 我們等一下就把這個東西先寫好了因為我們的訴訟程序的遵守完全是以筆錄政治啊那這個地方我一直在想有沒有可能有比較好的改進方法那當然這個地方還是由司法院跟部裡面最後面去做考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14248.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14266.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
最後我講一個訴訟程序的經濟的問題剛剛其實前面有先進有提到有一些訴訟費用過低的問題我其實也碰過一個蠻好玩的案例啊300塊對不對或是洗嫩訴訟4000塊大家一起猜一猜大家一起去提個訴訟大家還可以共同分擔一下這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14268.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14269.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14300.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14301.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
江世民教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14315.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14333.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
主席以及各位委員還有司法院的這些主管大家午安那因為我部分的內容已經方國昌大委員已經引用過了那我大家可以自行參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14335.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14362.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那首先我當然對於我國大部分任老任怨的法官我先表示敬意但是因為現在這個問題涉及制度改革那制度改革基本上我是希望能夠在一個理性的環境下去討論才不會有過度讓步跟偷軌的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14364.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14382.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
首先我還是要表明就是 四眼電院法官的過世不一定是因為案件過量的關係啦他可能是還有其他他們 他們內部一些其他的不良法官造成的一個被調查的效應造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14383.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14405.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
所以我是覺得一碼歸一碼但是我們法院有沒有過牢?它是過牢的你只要去看看新北的地檢署裡面的檢視官檢視官辦公室是不是到晚上12點還在辦公你去看看高等法院的法官是不是到晚上還是燈火通明基本上是可以看出是過牢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14406.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14420.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
你只要看看過往多少書記官有的也是自我了解有的就是生重病最近也才有生重病那我們法官當然也有真的是也是身心很不堪你說過老事常過老這是現實的問題但是我們還是認為基於一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14424.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14453.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
一個社會現實底下那如果說我們台灣有什麼觀念要改變的話那就是我們要不要建立一個每個人都應必須要有一個適足足夠的休憩的權利啦這個觀念要改變嘛因為你如果沒有觀念改變台積電的員工也過勞各個大銀行的你都不曉得他們被壓榨到多厲害連經理人出去泰國去玩一下還是一直賴一直賴區長一直賴要你在泰國要寫報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14454.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14478.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那種壓力基本上有的甚至經理人還偷光衣服到路上去逛整個台灣呈現一種勞動這種背景、文化的基本上是一種被剝削、被壓榨的狀況所以你如果認為說有什麼觀念要改變就是我們必須要把這個基本權建立起來每個人每個人都必須要有足夠的、適當的、足夠的一個休憩的權利然後用這樣去計算嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14479.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14503.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
總是才有一個計算基準說我們到時候我們法官到底是不是應該要限量分案那我們到底要補充多少原額然後要告訴人民跟人民對話說你可能有些案件要等今年10月來的可能要明年1月才會分案讓大家要有點耐心啊然後呢一旦呈現像美國上世紀70年代的時候到最後宣布自己民事司法失敗了 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14504.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14520.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
只好走向ADR所以整個幾十年都在發展ADR不管調解、不管仲裁、不管是中間評價、中立評價、專業評價、mini trial一大堆全部都ADR出來了因為司法已經失控了案件管理已經失控了 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14521.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14549.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
所以說這基本上是大家必須要去思考的每個人民來到法院他祈求一個司法救濟一個卑微的救濟但是來的他面臨的法官事實上是不可測的大部分都是很認真大部分都是溫和很和善的很人道的但是也有部分事實上像我最近才聽到律師跟我抱怨他在台中部中部一個法院竟然一個案子把他偷了4年都不開庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14550.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14577.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
這是不可能的事情,但是還是可能啊,它還是發生的四年他都不動,等到他去跟院長抱怨,院長本來還拒見後來他說要去跟司法院院長抱怨,他才接見接見之後,才趕快找另外一個法院幫他辦掉人民就讓你在那邊拖延時間,在那邊延宕時間所以我的書面裡面才會講說,那你要學歐盟啊要學歐盟,要學德國啊,人家就立成法了啊你如果中華民國立出這個法,我就跟你說我服了你 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14578.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14594.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
就台灣的民事司法如果或說怎麼樣把他拖延太久了你要負賠償責任啊阿不然人家一個建築物怪蓋在那邊希望你兩年趕快截掉才能繼續蓋結果被拖了這幾年建築物就廢掉了工程就廢掉了阿你這樣的司法呈現一種失能狀態你還跟他講什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14596.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14618.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以說我是認為說每個人民他來到法院基本上他都是希望求助的我們還是有義務去幫人民守住這個關卡那我是認為說如果我們現在讓法官開始有一個事主的休憩權這個觀念開始拓展然後之後也相關的立法跟審判拓展到各個行業我覺得這樣台灣才會變成一個人道化的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14619.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14642.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我是覺得這種比較人道主義的國家這樣就會形成這才是我希望達到的目標啦那不是說把這種議題變成是一種很渲染很感性的然後甚至偷軌的那到時候搞到最後被情惹然後弄出來的制度變成是一種是很可能造成國家偷軌例如剛才講到立法理由是判決理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14643.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14671.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
判決理由德國三一三條A基本上他不是這樣規定的啦德國基本上人家他的規定是如果判決完全沒辦法上訴的時候你上訴不合法的那種情形可以不用付理由或者是當事人捨棄的時候也可以不付理由或者是你如果是可以當庭宣判新政議程然後可以把部分重要理由寫在你的判決筆錄上的那也可以不要人家是有付條件的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14672.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14695.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
哪裡有跟你說判決不用復留 為什麼?因為德國的基本法 聽審權 合法聽審權 我們16條訴訟權 包括聽審權 聽審權就包括法院審酌義務啊你聽了人家 喔 聽審喔 當事人講一大堆 結果法官你在那邊打瞌睡 根本不審酌回去根本要自己在那邊玩其他的東西 也沒有審酌 沒有審酌 沒有出現在裁判署長怎麼可以呢?所以那是一個審酌義務問題 這一個憲法強制的問題欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14698.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14718.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
所以德國還是沒辦法退讓阿你說台灣能不能退讓坦白說阿你如果採九人陪審團你就採這種陪審團制度的話新加坡制度的話你陪審團制度你判決書坦白說你不用去交代什麼一大堆理由因為已經大家都這樣子都認為已經超過他的新政了我那不互理我覺得OK喔你事實怎麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14719.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14744.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
阿不然人家怎麼決定要不要上訴你沒有理由人家決定你怎麼上訴搞到最後本來九成不上訴人家九成是因為服了你中環民口這麼認真的法官寫的理由他才不上訴因為你到最後我都不負理由就一大堆跑到二審去二審就崩潰掉阿那哪裡有這樣子的事情所以說我是覺得要慎重不可以被過度勒索一切都要回歸理性本來剛才在下面我一直講說我千萬不要像黃國昌那樣激動 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14745.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14745.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14762.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14789.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
像我後面也強大ADR嘛 其實我們 我裡面也說我們調解法 草案都出來了啊立法院只要再更進一步把調解法裡面 把它變調解人 將來在台灣也變成是一個專業專門職業的話 變成活絡 你在美國 在德國人家也都是啊 遇到紛爭也會去找調解人 他就是一個專業人幫你調解之後做一定的效率的規定 那個都是老規劃中立評價或密西根調解 這裡面 我們都是一個很好制度都可以用的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14790.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14808.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那司法院當然你有責任去把他說你要限量分案那你要計算出來啊你要一個合理的計算出來嘛像剛才委員講的其實那個都可以參考或者說我裡面也有講你依照類型去大家那麼聰明拜託司法介紹的人才非常非常多捏大家難道那麼英明底下你計算不出來點數嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14810.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14828.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
你們半小時、半小時一點或一小時一點然後去計算整個一週多少點然後一個月多少點或一年多少點總是要給法官一定的啊你一個案件量大家基本評估當然部分會有怎麼樣會增減那到時候再調那個是技術問題啊你要去計算出來嘛我覺得那個是合理的啊是可行的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14830.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14840.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
這樣子大家才有對話,才不會是講說只是這樣漫天要價,我覺得制度討論不可以這樣當然民宿法我們有很多規定,就是爛樹的禁止,還有專家參審、審理計畫,我們這裡很多,進階版的 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14849.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14872.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我覺得這部分看我的書面請大家參考一下啦這個我希望將來能夠限收甚至限收二審的變更追加反訴或什麼我覺得那個制度就大家參考我的書面啦基本上是基本上很多是還可以做的啦制度面其實還是可以理性去對話去討論的那我的結論就是這樣啦因為基於時間的關係大家也累了我覺得人事緣和可以爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14874.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14881.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
分案量可以減部分事件類型、辦案期限也可以酌情延長但是管控不可減 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14882.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14910.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
管控反而,因為你既然已經事主,如果事主人力,如果你已經有坦白說啦,我們現在這兩條線嘛,一條到底是法檢要增加,還是他的服務準也要增加因為我以前的理想是認為,應該是大檢制、大法官制啦,就是你要主管制,變一個team我會team,我leader,你底下有時候是開陳報,底下你們寫好了裁判書,我們來看,我們來逐一檢視理由我本來理想是這樣啦,其實現在還有一點這樣的渴望啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14912.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14940.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
阿如果給你這樣的事主人力之後當然我們管控不可考阿因為我就跟你說你面對的法官大部分都是認真的但才少部分很混的你要相信就你不要不相信很混的最後啦我跟你講我們台灣的法官阿坦白說如果我們的公信力阿只比廟柱少一點點什麼改革是不可能的呢你說什麼權力多大不用不理由書那都是可能的好 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14942.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14971.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
好 謝謝那我們下一位請好 那個我這邊先提一下就是因為今天其實有很多第一線的同仁有提一些相關的想法嘛那我還是覺得司法院可能真的要司法院跟法務部能夠就這些第一線的同仁他所提到的能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14973.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14978.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
有所回復,麻煩司法院及法務部做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14988.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
15012.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
來 我想剛剛我們公明了數多學者專家非常實務界的意見那大意上就跟我們主席召委所定的這個題目呢就是透過這樣的一個文書或行政的減量或簡化減輕我們基層司法人員的負擔但是我這裡要提出一個怎麼樣因應國法案的增補能力還有透過救援來賭詐降低案件的總量往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
15014.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
15039.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
我認為我們看今天的新聞長期虐兒致死國民法官重判16年我想大部分人都只看到表面就說對啦你看這個國民法官終於體現了國民的法感讓這樣社會所憎恨的所厭惡的這樣的暴行能夠相當於殺人罪的方式將他處刑但是有沒有想過在這個背後我們看到什麼未來的需求往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15040.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
15047.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
其實我們說正義失控的原因 失控的正義我不曉得主席是不是從失控的陪審團這部電影得到的靈感這個其實說到陪審團 我們在推動國民法、國安法我們看到了到2026年適用的範圍要擴大到貪污等重罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
15056.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
15084.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
我們知道目前我們基層整個地院已經用了很大的人力一個國法案大概就要把我們整個地院的精英能力都耗盡了可是我們其他人力還要快什麼快被炸氣的案件所陰沒那司法委員蠟燭兩頭燒要如何解決我們不只要看到現在因為炸氣暴增的量造成我們基層人員的負荷我們要看到未來的新的制度的實施對我們人力的使用消耗也是越來越嚴重好 那我還是回顧一下今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
15085.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15104.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
在於案件或文書或行政減量的部分我談另外一個往前頭的下一頁就是源頭其實今天我們新增的案件有超過一半是經濟犯罪是詐欺這種我稱之為病毒式的犯罪那基本上是因為有網路經濟的發達還有數位金融的科技的進步他就兩個特色一個是大量複製一個是傳播迅速 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15107.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15133.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
大量複製以至於他可以很快的接觸被害人很容易得手傳播迅速迅速傳播是什麼透過金流他很快的移轉使得事後的犯罪偵查追查追張非常的困難所以呢目前我們檢察官在地方上遇到就是說如何證明犯罪所得如何證明犯罪人都是涉及到這些在金融體系上金流在數位化之後所造成的一個檢察官的負荷要去收集這麼大量的資訊才能證明他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15135.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15135.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15160.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15177.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
就是抓代言者很快的把代言者找出來要找出代言者要鎖定他的足跡可能某種程度要限制他的侵犯透過科技工具某種程度呢會涉及到人民的隱私但是一旦找到了代言者我們就能有效的防渡另外一個是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15178.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15193.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
從被感染者我們大家戴口罩、勤洗手、少出門減少接觸的機會事實上檢察官是從後端找代言者但是我們其他的部門包括金融體系包括經濟部等這些前端包括電信傳輸怎麼樣讓他減少接觸或接觸的量減少經流移轉的速度減緩透過量的減少速度減緩才能夠減少這些經濟犯罪繼續擴大的原因好往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15206.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15228.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那最後呢大概就是這樣的一個主張在上週呢漸進減改的時候我也去做出這樣的表達因為我過去在財政委員會現在在司法法制委員會我們很清楚這件事情不是司法界的事情這件事情是整個國家社會共同面對的問題所以不能只由司法部門來自己想辦法自立救濟他必須整個社會就像COVID-19一樣全部的動員起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15231.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15249.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
不是只是聽任醫療機構去找代言者只是聽任醫療機構宣導民眾多戴口罩、勤洗手、少出門不是的其他的部門都要相對應的配合所以我在這裡提出的從金流的部分、從資訊流的部分怎麼樣加強管理減緩金流的速度怎麼樣在資訊流的部分透過電信傳輸業者我們降低詐騙資訊的傳播的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15253.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15278.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
包括分級分流來管理包括提高它的成本這都是有效的去減少我們經濟犯罪或者說病毒式犯罪增加了這大量的案量癱瘓了我們的司法體系最後我們往下看齁那麼其實呢還要想到未來未雨綢繆現在大家想要增補人力其實人力對司法人力大概是我們各種的公務服務人力中最珍惜的它跟不亞於醫師其實跟醫師一樣很難培養培養很久要用在對的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15281.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15291.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
所以我認為像經濟犯罪、像病毒式犯罪這些大量相同格式的犯罪其實透過行政減量、透過格式簡化、透過AI讓它去想辦法消化但是我們增補的人力要看到未來的需求未來當我們推動國民法案越來越需要這些高階的人力來應付這些複雜的案件這才是我們司法在面對目前的情況也能夠籌謀未來的需求以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15307.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15310.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
好 謝謝鍾委員那下一位我們請蕭檢察官發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15324.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15350.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
主席在場各位先進大家好我是台北地檢署檢察官蕭永昌那這個今天我最主要這個我發言的部分的話可能是針對這個檢方這邊的這個工作負擔的部分來表現一下個人的淺見那這個簡單來說呢其實現在檢方工作的沉重負擔很多是來自於這個詐欺案件那詐欺案件的這個處理呢還需要很多這個行政機關像是經營管會或者是這個速發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15351.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15351.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15371.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15371.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15395.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15422.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
處理案件務必一定要把人起訴感覺起來這個檢察官就是務必要把人起訴很多時候這個民眾的觀感是這樣但是不管是我自己的工作經驗也好又或者是法務部統計的資料也好事實上地檢署的這個案件的終結的情形它事實上呈現了一個狀況什麼狀況就是檢察官處理的案件裡面有超過4成將近5成的案件是不起訴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15424.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15432.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
他呈現了一個什麼狀況他呈現一個狀況其實就是說這個很多時候這個一些民眾他提告案件他本身他到底是不是所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15435.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15455.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
值得花助很多司法資源去偵辦案件本身它是一個很存疑的這個部分為什麼因為以這個刑事案件來說提告不需要任何成本提告不需要任何成本你甚至連可能就是連寫撞死的錢都省了你直接到地檢署這個案例申告就好那中間不用繳任何裁判費 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15455.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15478.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
所以說它事實上這個刑事案件的部分提高無成本的這種情況之下如果再搭配一般人心遇到這個免費案件就免費的事情大家就想要盡量的利用盡可能利用的這種狀況之下很多時候它就會演變成這個濫用的情形所以說我個人覺得這個部分我們在處理上我們應該要減少就應該要提高這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15482.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15502.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
提高濫送的成本 進而讓源頭的案件數減少不然不管人力再怎麼增加 案件數假設沒有減少的話事實上人力的增加永遠都追不上案件的速度所以我覺得很重要的部分就是我們要一開始減少一些無謂的案件也就是提高濫送的成本以簡單來說的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15504.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15524.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
我最主要今天會有三個想法第一個我非常支持李聖傑教授說的自訴先行跟自訴先行的部分我個人除了自訴先行之外我也是希望看能不能修改《刑事訴訟法》的部分來讓一些案件能夠從檢察官偵查的部分轉自訴這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15529.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15532.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
2、搭配現行自訴程序、律師強制代理3、行刑訴訟可考慮課徵訴訟費,透過這三種方式來墊高濫訴成本,進而減少無謂案件加入首先回到一開始,為什麼我支持李聖傑教授的 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15555.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15582.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
自述先行 或者是我這邊我要主張說一些案件我覺得應該要裁量轉自述其實最主要來說 有一些案件 舉例來說像是妨害名譽案件 有人告我 有人說在網路上或在現實生活中說我是笨蛋 說我是醜男 我很生氣 我就告他妨害名譽那這件案件在偵辦上面 有任何證據調查的難度嗎 沒有他其實簡單來說 我們今天只要審酌一件事情就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15583.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15583.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15606.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15623.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
很有可能是不起訴或者是無罪的這種案件我覺得這個大有可疑特別是很多法案名義的案件當時提告的動機我們講難聽一點他只是想要搞人用免錢的方式搞人免錢方式搞人可能是一種另外一種更惡劣的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15624.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15637.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
他其實在網路上故意散發一些會招惹眾怒的言論當別人罵他的時候他接下來就逐一的提告然後用這種方式以行逼命也不能講以行逼命簡單來說他就是私下去聯繫對方要求對方用錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15641.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15641.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15655.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15656.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15681.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15699.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
後來就要說他就要某種程度他就要付錢然後再來就是我這邊就是最後這邊所講的我覺得我支持這個刑事案件這邊可能要考量這個訴訟費用課徵的部分當然這個因為訴訟費用課徵的部分他其實刑事案件他有某種程度來說他涉及公益那我個人目前的潛見我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15701.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15713.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
這個如果這個在檢察官偵查過後檢察官偵查過後如果有提起公訴的案件提起公訴案件那其實某種程度來說這部分的話我覺得也許我們這個部分可以說它是免輸入費但是如果是這個調查過後這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15716.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15740.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
這部分的話 這個不起訴呢 我個人會覺得說 這個也許可以這個原則上克徵 但是例外情形可免因為有些案件它其實本身有一些會案不明 像是這個信心漢案件這個最後做不起訴 很多時候並不是檢察官這邊不相信被害人而是證據的問題 那我們也不會怪被害人他提起這個告訴所以說我覺得這個在輸送費用的這個部分的話 我覺得這個制度本身它是可以做一個考量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15742.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15760.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
以上是希望刑事說明法這邊能夠做一些調整的部分也就是跟司法院這邊能夠做一個呼籲至於法務部內的部分我這邊想要做的呼籲是希望在意案件發回重演也就是不要動不動就發回一些在意案件為什麼這樣講因為很多時候造成檢察官工作負擔的很多時候是一些很 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15768.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15784.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
不營養的案件 舉例來說像管委會 後手的管委會覺得前手管委會帳目做得不清 他就告背刑 告侵占 告詐欺 之類很多但是他們又不請律師 什麼案件他就一坨告那檢察官這時候必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15785.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15809.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
一坨告的這種情況之下檢察官必須要花很多的心力去幫他整理金流幫他整理帳目幫他整理犯罪事實但是因為一坨爛泥給檢察官但檢察官這時候必須要去做整理那只要整理得稍微不好的話那很多時候他就變成是高檢所發回理由說這個部分可能沒有詳查什麼之類的但是說實在的這個部分這個公益性 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15810.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15810.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15833.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15860.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
認定上能夠從嚴﹑直接讓當事人有機會以申請準與自述的方式去跟法院做主張那也逼迫這類型的告訴人他們去請律師好好的去自己整理自己的問題自己為自己提告的事情去做相關的舉證以及事實的整理的義務而不是一團爛你給檢察官然後怎麼樣整理都整理得不對然後一直被挑三檢四 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15861.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15868.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
這個部分我是希望以法務部的內部的部分來說我希望在議的部分能夠發揮重演給當事人多一些提早能夠准許申請自述的空間這個部分最後想要表達的是雖然說我這邊剛剛有人呼籲說希望能夠讓自述的部分能夠增加但這部分我個人覺得它未必會增加法院的工作量為什麼這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15891.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15895.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
這個想法事實上很簡單因為其實講到錢就傷感情很多律師都知道你只要跟當事人講到說我諮詢收多少錢我也認為我要收多少錢很多當事人就說那我回去再想想所以說感覺起來好像自訴案件會造成法院的案件上的負擔但事實上不會因為很多時候光是看到那個價目表 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15911.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15916.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
當事人可能就覺得那就算所以這部分的話我就覺得說這個也許是應該是可以做一個考量修法的方向讓當事人多冷靜一點最後 那這個非常感謝吳委員以及其他立法委員對這個司法整個大環境的支持那因為今天時間有限那也希望這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15932.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15958.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
委員之後也能夠關照一下書記官團體因為其實書記官團體不管是檢察官也好、法官團體也好都是我們非常重要的夥伴跟支撐的力量但是很多時候書記官團體的人才流動很頻繁或者是優秀人才沒辦法留住同樣的也會造成檢察機關跟司法機關在工作處理上面的一些困難非常感謝今天有這樣的機會 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15962.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15962.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
李政華理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15976.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
16000.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
謝謝吳委員的邀請還有各位部會首長還有各位專家學者我們實務界的法官檢察官大家好我是李政華李律師今天代表司法改革公安部署協會我們協會跟明天是改革基金會是不一樣的我們是2015年成立的新的協會跟著蔡英文總統的司法改革的步調成立的新的協會那今天呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
16002.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
16028.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
我要來分享的主題是我們這個四個提綱裡面的第四個提綱就是怎麼樣來在訴訟外來解決案件不要讓案子進入法院那我想這麼多案件大家都看出來了進入法院進入檢察官系統大家的壓力都很重 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
16031.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
16060.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
善良的檢察官堅持的檢察官他就會變成壓力過大長期下來就會變成過勞早晚會出問題那聰明的檢察官呢不想要變過勞他就會怎麼樣聰明的法官會怎麼做抓大放小抓一個重點就判啊為什麼上訴神啊一樣啊重來一次啊你不服上訴嘛上訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
16064.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
16084.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
造成什麼程序審理過程不正義造成裁判品質低落結果呢司法性難度會高嗎當然不會嘛那我不服上訴啊看看日本的上訴率4%美國的上訴率7、8%台灣的上訴率30%這個是笑死人的一百件有30件上訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
16092.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
16111.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
上訴之後,大家又發揮更審又發揮更審,更換人家又發揮更審,最高法院又發揮更審那案子辦得完嗎?永遠辦不完,怎麼辦?但是大家今天其實談下來其實是有交集的,有很具體的交集和共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
16113.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
16135.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
事在人為這是制度設計的問題不是一個利用一個法官之詞、書籍官之詞或是怎樣有還婚的這個問題是老問題常在已經存續那麼久的事情我們應該用我們的經驗、我們的智慧還有我們的勇氣去做改革所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
16136.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
16162.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
問題在制度設計為什麼別人的制度設計這樣子會造成這樣的效果為什麼別人的制度設計會讓進入法院的案件那麼少然後讓法官判下來之後上訴率那麼低這個不難啊只要去研究就可以了那我今天策略上呢我們要解決這些案源解決這些事情降低法官案件率第一個策略就是增加人力嘛但是我想大部分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
16163.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
16176.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
今天與會的專家學者跟我看法一樣,慎重!增加一個法官,只是增加一個法官嗎?增加一個檢察官,只是增加一個檢察官嗎?NO!增加一個法官,他要不要出一段配合?要不要入室配合?要不要辦公廳設?要不要宿舍?要不要退休準備金?要不要增加管考? |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
16184.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
16199.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
不簡單 這個東西要慎重我的看法是把現有缺的人力補足就可以了限制編的編制的人力補足就好了就連現在編制內的人數都給不足了這個部分先解決還是重點那次類2是什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
16200.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16222.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
就是增加當事人的訴訟成本今天也蠻多我們食物界的剛剛包括我們的消費檢察官都有提到我們要增加當事人去打官司的成本那這部分今天我沒有做我有做一些但是今天沒有空來做這個特別報導就是說你要讓他精神時間要花更多下去你要讓他金錢的成本要花更多下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16224.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16248.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
這個地方剛好我們江教授有提到就是說你要學習律師的和解制度或是所謂的密西根制的調解制度就是說我今天在調解委員會在調解的時候我提出的調解方案本來是可以被接受的結果你不接受你打官司結果法官判的結果是比我調解方案還高或是跟我調解方案一樣的內容對不起那這段期間你所產生的律師費訴訟費用你都要賠我 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
16250.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16277.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
這事情本來在調解委員會就可以解決事情啊 結果你要上法院啊是不是 類似這樣的制度OK 好 那我們回到我今天的重點就是在 要截斷送援那我分成三個部分來講當然我這個是一個拋磚引玉的看法還沒有非常深入 也需要立法的修法也需要我們主管機關有勇氣發布命令下去然後讓大家來遵守起訴成階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16278.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16292.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
起訴或審判前階段以及審判中階段分三個來看那我今天主要來因為時間關係我談最主要是談第一個階段部分就是說很簡單我們分別案件的類型然後讓我們的專業的人員進入調解 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16297.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16324.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
那這個有前車之鑑 這個有非常好的 前面的成功的案例譬如說消保案件 消費者保護案件譬如說這個勞資正義案件 譬如說交通失控案件這些都有專業的人在前端 在協助處理就可以把這個案件呢 在前端就化解掉了 不用進入訴訟那我們模仿這樣的一個想法 這樣的一個適度設計去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16326.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16354.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
第一個我提到的是行政調處很多事情其實在行政機關因為它本身也是行政機關的業務不管是家暴、交通財閥事件、鄰居糾紛、私生衝突案件其實它都涉及到行政機關行政機關在前頭的部分如果我們運用行政機關所賦予的專業的人力去投入包括我們律師界去投入協助那麼就在前端把它解決掉不要讓它進入法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16355.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16376.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
譬如說加封裁法意義目前是 真名意義是裁決所裁法那裁決所幾乎都為此啊你為什麼不讓我們車間會的秘書或車間會的一個委員專業的委員他們是很厲害的我們車間會的委員都很厲害特別是秘書啊幹了二三十年那些秘書那個三分鐘就瞄出來這事情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16378.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16403.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
對錯了嘛法院的適用還有案件的事實都已經顯清楚了這時候如果他們介入協助就能夠讓裁決所裁決更清楚或是讓當事人來一趟就在裁決所把他幹掉了不小心又送到法院去聲明一到法院去了這個需要法官來審理嗎對強制調解再一樣在法院就讓我們的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16406.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16432.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
有鑑定專家：或是有鑑定背景的律師們：或是鑑定委員會的秘書：來當調解員：把這事情加以調解處理這是行政條組：例如說我舉這個交通案件加報案件也是一樣加報案件特別是警察局受理的案件身份警情保護令的案件這個時候呢：就應該要有社工：或是類似社工的其他人員的行政資源來介入來處理這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16436.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16463.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
而不是說等著等著等著,我們等著讓法院來傳訊或讓檢察官來傳訊傷害罪或是讓家事法院來傳訊家庭保護令的事情應該這個時候就應該要有人來介入來協助處理了那鄰居金婚也是這樣情形鄰居金婚我們會有大廈管理委員會的總幹事社區的村里長在區公所聘請調解委員督同我們的幹事來介入做行政調處 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16465.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16473.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
你去糾紛 太瑣碎了 聲音的問題啦這東西 打官司會跟你講 法官也不會笑啦對不對 你這時候還要送鑑定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16474.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16502.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
對,一樣嘛,你進入法院訴訟裡面,我們跟當事人分析為什麼我們的,其實我看,依我經驗啊,非常多的案件都可以調解的為什麼?因為你跟當事人分析嘛,你進入法院,法院還是要請醫師鑑定啊法院還是要請這個車禍專家鑑定啊法院還是要請這個建築圖目專家鑑定啊法院還是要請這個顧家事來幫你鑑定,通通都是要鑑定的專家鑑定法官懂嗎?法官不會啊,第四屆測量更需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16503.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16531.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
地政專家來鑑定吧不如讓這些專家退休的或半退休的人在前端就幫我們解決問題了啊就這樣的思考很簡單接下來我談到這個包括師生衝突也是這樣子我們有校會啊校會這些委員們可以讓來介入在我們學校主任還有家長、輔導室來共同協調嘛在校園師生的衝突學生的衝突就把它處理好了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16532.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16549.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
接下來就是我剛才談到偵查中這個其實齁我剛聽過這樣子各位專家委員的報告之後我認為偵查中的東西就好像類似我們復檢座一樣就是類似一個治安法官的概念就是把一年以下現在把它改成五年以下徒刑案件呢你如果在治安法官的手裡面就把它處理掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16554.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16578.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這邊的類型我一樣提出來把它分類校園治安的傷害致死案件然後合意性侵未成年案件毒品的持有吸食案件當然這可以考慮除罪化的問題公然無罪也是可以有這個考慮交通致死重傷案件還有這個妨害民意案件剛剛有人提到妨害民意案件這種東西不要讓法官檢來官去處理這種微小事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16579.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16598.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
就讓在偵查中的時候就讓檢察官就直接委託我們的檢察事務官配合我們的這個心理諮商師配合我們的關護人配合我們的律師配合我們的法醫師來做先前的處理了所以這個地方就是說你在偵查中 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16600.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16618.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
就讓警察官可以指揮這些﹐配合這些人力﹐配合他的助理人員﹐來把這些事情在偵查中裡面﹐就做調解﹐和解﹐只要和解成立﹐就撤告了捏﹐就還起訴啦﹐或是犯罪協商﹐就把他處理掉啦﹐就不需要起訴進入法院啦﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16619.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16636.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
所以我這邊提到是說盡量不要讓這個案件來用這個檢疫判決來申請處刑而直接用緩起訴罰處理掉接下來就是我們看到偵查的開端就是偵查一開端的時候就有專人在處理專人在審理就是專案在做案件審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16638.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16662.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
審查之後就交給專股的審判來處理這個專股處理就可以類似聲射治安法官的概念來處理這個事情那麼在濫訴的部分我們分成民事糾葛就不用再簽解了啦民事糾葛發個函給他說你是民事糾葛啦你去找律師諮詢之後你找專業諮詢然後另外再處理用這種方式就把案子結掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16664.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16693.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
其他用自私的方式來做牽結然後可以警告說不要再告再告我就要用這個誣告罪來把你救辦等等的那自拔案件的檢驗案件剛剛提到說92條修法一樣把一年下改成五年下徒刑的東西就可以讓案子簡化好讓簡化然後明確的這個檢驗案件已經事實證據明確的話就交專股直接用犯罪協商或協調後把案子直接用道歉啊和解賠償啊就處理掉了他就不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16695.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16697.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
目前被詐欺案件,這三次人被詐欺案件,升了40幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16721.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16724.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16741.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16760.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
但是車手呢 一個車手呢 他不可能只 他被抓到的時候 他不可能只犯一個案件嘛他犯了很多案件 而且這個車手呢 當他被收押之前 他搞不好已經是第一次是無保釋放 第二次是交保了 第三次才被押起來所以這時候就有3、4個檢察機關在審理這個車手案件結果呢 每一個機關都各自起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16764.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16783.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
哇!那當然製造了四五個案件嘛我現在碰到兩三件都是這樣子一個車手就五六個檢查...地政...檢查事務所就...就是...地檢署就起訴了那...那開玩笑嘛那你不是製造法官案件嗎為什麼同一個車手你不把它...你是檢察官系統啊你很容易啊跟警察配合去把它查這個... |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16785.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16785.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
立法院第11屆第1會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16802.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16813.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
所以這個地方就是說,你應該在偵查開端,如果警察局報告或告訴把這個車手送過來的話,你就給他退回,你要續行去追查上游還有像連續的犯刑,包括犯賭也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16818.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16844.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
這樣子就讓我們偵查檢查機關在這個控制這個案件的偵查為什麼?那個時效很久啦對不對?一個犯罪可以偵查多久?是不是?偵查的時效可以很久啦就犯罪偵查時效很久當然辦案有期限嘛但是問題是像現在的案件就可以沿你放寬他的辦案期限嘛是不是?好 所以以上就是說我是希望是說我們的訴訟在前端我們可以利用我們的行政資源利用我們現在各種紛爭裡面都有專業人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16846.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16868.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
專人存在這個社會、存在警察局、存在我們這個社工系統、存在我們心理法醫師系統這些人,專見會的委員,這些人你要在前段利用他們去幫我們解決問題所以我跟公聽會發言人說,這個策略,增加人力、增加當事人的失控成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16869.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16870.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
章瑞雄議員章瑞雄議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16898.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16917.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
大家好我今天其實坐在底下聽然後剛再回到辦公室我也聆聽各位的一個高見其實從1999年首次的全國司法改革會議就已經提出減輕司法人員的一個負擔直到到了2017年這個司改國是會議裡面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16923.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16951.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
甚至今天這場公聽會我們都還在討論還在討論所以我就特別有感而發那今天我看有幾位學者專家也特別去提到或者本院的委員也去提到說在檢察官人力不足的部分或者法官人力不足的部分也秀出了一些資料像比如說檢察官的這個案量多增加了48%那我就怪啦增加了48%那反而我們院方這邊的案件增加那個比例還不到10% |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16953.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16967.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
那其中的30幾%都跑到哪裡去了那也不可能說案子無中生有或者說有中變成無那這個案子就很顯然這個是不是統計數字上也必須要再更精確那 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16970.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16998.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
到底什麼樣的一個訴訟制度啊才是大家想要追求的我雖然從這個1995、96年開始那到97、98然後到最後我就變成司法界我們的法律界都變逃兵到了政治界來可是呢其實我幾乎每個禮拜啊我自己在看這個法律服務的時候啊我常常會看到一些書類啊我不管是檢察官的起訴書或者法案製作的一個判決書啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16999.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
17001.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
這個我就有點感慨啦一般其實都是很平時的比較輕微的個案件其實書類你都叫他怎麼再簡化證據清單寫的已經夠簡化了然後整個起訴書裡面你說他的起訴狀裡面他寫的文字也並不是很多你說會太 要再怎麼樣簡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
17024.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
17026.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
那當然這個部分可以再來再做一個討論但很顯然問題不在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
17031.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
17034.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
一般民眾來講的話我們一直在講說要疏減這個送援可是送援呢我們今天談的其實幾個不管是從簡化偵查或者審判或者這個程序的一個簡化還有書類的一個製作跟人力的增補這個其實都在講四個字訴訟經濟但你這個訴訟經濟要有一個前提 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
17057.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
17084.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
你要達到訴訟的一個經濟就是說不要投入那麼多人力、那麼多財力、那麼多物力進去但是要有一個公平審判的一個前提在公平審判的一個前提在所以以這些人力上的一個增補立法院只要你們說得出道理立法院其實都會給你們支持但重點是會到最後是人民的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
17085.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
17100.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
你今天要五千多個你今天要增加一萬個我們整個司法的信賴度我們這個法院對民眾讓民眾的信賴可以做一個提升的話立法院一萬個都敢給你啊但是你要把那個配置需求它的必要性要講得清楚啊這個部分要講得清楚啊所以我一直會認為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
17110.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
17136.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
法院其實我們今天這樣子公聽裡面我們聽到了法官聽到了檢察官這些心聲我們真的是聽到了可是呢這個只是精英的心聲啊精英的心聲啊民眾的想法未必會跟我們今天列席的所有的專家的看法是一致民眾的想法會認為說這個法院的存在不是為了檢察官跟法官的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
17136.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
17147.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
是基於為人民而存在那當然我們給法官、檢察官必要的武器不能讓他們變成是過勞一樣 這也不對那這個訴訟制度怎麼來設計跟各位報告不是立法院的權責立法院設計不出來的今天來看看參與的才幾位 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
17163.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
17172.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
你不真的以為立法院是這麼專業啊哪怕吳宗憲幹過檢察官我幹過那麼久的律師我們進到政治來我們變得不專業啦我們口水變多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
17173.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
17179.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
但是呢 那個初衷啊各位 協助讓這個司法怎麼樣更讓人民來信賴這個就變成 又變成我們的責任啊我們也有義務啊可是我們會表達支持啊可是我也必須要提出來我從過去啊 在學校裡面念書啊老師哪一個人不是教我們要怎麼樣建立一個富有人性而溫暖的訴訟制度那講到現在呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
17199.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17219.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
民眾還是沒有辦法來接受我們現在整個法院實務所做出來的這判決合不合理我認為民眾的想法也很合理訴訟就會有對照吳宗憲假設你今天審一個案子我跟幾位學者專家我們互相併為對照你贏了我會覺得吳宗憲亂判 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17224.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
17233.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
你搞不好你覺得雖然你贏了你覺得吳宗憲也是亂判的啊你要求一百萬那判你八十萬而已啊這個案子判下來吳宗憲你也不滿意啊我說你們兩個胡說八道根本依照判決下來全部大家都不滿意啊這個台灣社會目前是這樣子啊所以我們只能盡量去尋求共識啊訴訟制度沒有完美的啦哪有完美的 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
17247.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
17269.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
你說日本人口比我們多那麼多以檢察官的配置來看的話我們的檢察官的人數不比人家少啊可是我們的做出來的我們檢察官我絕對認為百分之九十幾的檢察官都是非常優秀的可是常常你有一個案件到最後媒體把你去做一個渲染以後我也常常看到一些很不入流的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
17271.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17281.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
我們平常心得講是這樣子啊那何況老百姓透過媒體這樣的一個披露以後會覺得說你們檢察官法官在幹什麼會啊 也會這樣子啊所以本席倒會認為說訴訟經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17284.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17302.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
有必要 書類的精簡 人力的一個做一個補充否則那個正義很難貴欸 正義真的很難貴啊檢察官也累 法官也累 民眾到最後都累 大家全部都輸那輸掉的是一個大家民眾對司法的一個信賴啊所以民間裡面大家 我們很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17303.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17319.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
我們很清楚就是說檢察官累 法官累你說法案都塞車 不是法案塞車所以大部分都是案件塞車啊塞到最後大家認為說如果真正我們在開車的話塞車大家想的就是大眾捷運系統 公共運輸可是法案在法院裡面塞車怎麼辦就只有增加人力這一圖嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17324.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17339.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
要再想一想 增加人力是最簡單的立法院絕對可以支持 但是我們也會去做比較 別的國家到底是怎麼樣就比較得出來的嘛 所以立法院可以支持這個部分 對於給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17340.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17355.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
檢察官給法官有更好的一個武器不要讓他們這樣子的一個過勞或者說去減輕他們的工作量這個都必須要司法院或者法務部都有責任這樣去做立法院也會來做一個支持但我也必須要提出來就是說人民期待到最後他要得到他的正義他覺得他權力受損 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17364.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17369.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
他當然到最後 我也不懂啊我只能找法院啊 不然我去找誰我去找政黨嗎 我去找行政部門嗎就是全部都沒辦法幫助他了 他求助無門了他認為說 還有一個法院在他走到法院去啦法院這邊跟他講說 你來喔 我好累喔我們又不能這樣去講所以整個訴訟制度的存在我倒覺得必須要記住一點還是為人民而存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17392.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17400.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
不然要這個法院幹什麼我們要這個司法來幹什麼所以我本席今天就聽了這麼多以後語重心長的原因就是說因為聽太久了司法國事會議也開了哪一黨執政都一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17408.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17416.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
不要說到立法院來討論啦任何一場在關於法律的尤其是不管是民事訴訟或者刑事訴訟的一個研討會裡面我看到連法律學者大家彼此的攻防有時候都真的臉紅脖子粗甚至難聽的話都講出來了何況是史務界裡面又有這麼多不同的一個意見那本席今天特別來要表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17432.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17460.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
對今天這個整個公聽會的一個支持對我們整個司法界的一個支持人力的部分我們絕對沒有問題但是整個訴訟制度的一個設計要達到共識太困難了必須要很清楚我只看你們民宿訴訟只看你們小兒訴訟然後程序選擇權講了一大堆你看這個走了幾十年前陣子大家在講說是不是這個整個要台灣要比較走向當事人進行主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17461.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17466.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
只要我們老舊這樣一直實踐下去到現在大家也不滿意啊大家也不滿意啊律師界也太多人要認為說制度的變革那是不夠大的可是我們這邊光以目前現行的實務制度我們就有這麼多沒辦法解決的地方所以今天來聆聽各位的高見也表達我自己一點的一個心聲絕對支持但是問題是我還是要確認就是說到最後不管立法院怎麼支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17488.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17516.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
這個整套制度真的還是要是歸於要整個司法還是最後人民的一個信賴大家一起來努力啦 謝謝好 謝謝莊委員今天所有學者專家跟發言登記的委員都已經發言完畢那我們接著進行機關代表以及列席者發言那第一我們先邀請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17517.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17519.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
民間司改會臨場務董事發言各位發言時間為5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17544.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17548.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
主席、各位學者人家跟機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17549.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17574.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
我們被列在列席的地方下頁我們民間司改會我這個可以按嗎民間司改會從2020年就成立一個小組我當時是董事長我親自召集那個名稱叫做檢診司法符合提升司法品質那這個小組進行了4年那我們在2年的時候已經提出7個草案或方案也拜會了司法院的秘書當時的林秘書長跟華國部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17577.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17585.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
官方多說謝謝但是都沒有採取行動我們提的也許是拋磚引玉我們後來又陸續討論大概有11項下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17591.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17607.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
但是我們有一些基本想法 剛才大家聽了很久 所以我想盡量速度加快那我們對於司法院曾經提出沒有配到的限制人民上訴權 這樣可能會減輕呼和但是我們這個小組的名稱是 為了提升裁判評估 司法是為人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17608.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17632.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
那當然你過老的法官檢管官是沒有辦法有好的品質沒有問題但是沒有配到的限制人民的上訴權這樣的一個處理我們反對我們對於鬆綁司法管考不合理要改但是完全要鬆綁然後取消辦案限制這個對有一些人民有些法官很自治但有些法官不是這樣我們也反對好 下一個那 下一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17633.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17659.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
那我想人力剛才大家講很多我不贅述我要講的就是說應該要先檢討的是不是有沒有效率的人流程跟規定而且案件的來源好 下一個那麼有些剛才大家討論的過程當中其實有些是沒有效率的人那有些法官檢察官不是故意沒有效率他可能沒有被教育可能他再教育如果再不能改善可能要淘汰那流程的部分要檢討訴訟的制度要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17662.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17687.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
司法本身有沒有牢獄不均這也都要檢討講人力之前要先處理這個問題那麼剛才在講人口日本是我們的5倍但案件進入法院跟我們差不多相同那這裡面牽涉到很多的制度問題不是只講檢案人數而已案件量那這個部分其實是值得思考第二點我特別講一下就是大家像剛才莊嘉賓立委也有講到詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17688.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17688.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17709.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17733.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
那濫訴 我知道司法院有提出民訴書法修改但效果好嗎 值得考慮 可以討論的那裡面我們提出一個濫訴 譬如說是增加在一定的條件下 我這細節我都沒有辦法講在一定的條件下 是不是他一定要去請律師我想這用律師會來處理好 那麼再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17734.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17763.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那麼另外就是說我們也 剛才也有學者專家提到就是說其實司法院跟法務部都要聘請真的要好好的委請有研究管理的專業的人去做實證研究到底哪一個部分每一個部分不一樣 地檢署跟高檢署也許不一樣每個家事法庭跟商業法庭坑也不一樣那問題出在哪裡 他們負荷過重 過重到是什麼原因等等要做實證的研究才能夠有對策下一頁 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17764.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17779.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
我在這裡因為時間的關係我本來以為有10分鐘好沒關係我就不講細節我11個部分分成3部分我們講的都沒有那麼百分之百全面但是都有去想過比如說我們緩起訴我們都有條文喔我條文都給立法院了我都有條文我們民間市改委是有條文的 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17781.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17803.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
那當然這條文可以再討論 譬如說緩起訴 因為我們在討論的過程都不是只是律師學者 還有很多一線的法官檢察官 或者法官檢察官退下來的那他提供很多意見 譬如說緩起訴為什麼檢察官不想用 因為測下緩起訴很麻煩 要有什麼誘因沒 我們有提出一些相關的條文 包括辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17804.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17828.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
任罪協商也一樣有很多的不方便或者是說有很多的範圍太小等等那有關濫訴我剛剛講說是不是可以放寬到可以他如果一定被被定程序被認定濫訴的話他要訴訟是要委請律師好下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17831.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17857.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
幫我下一頁,謝謝那簡化程序,那剛才有檢察官提到,領導檢察官提到說這個檢警不宜解送這個規定,我們都有條文了我們條文寫得更詳細,大家可以參考那剛才有法官提到說這個提示證、證物,不用這樣一個一個提示那這個部分我們也有想過,有辯護律師的案件,刑事辯護律師的案件律師跟當事人同意的話,是可以簡化的,我們有一些簡化條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17858.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17871.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
那第三次最簡單的啦,形式有委外轉譯可是民事沒有欸民事很多的政人其實很複雜但是好可憐喔,那法官、書記官就一直在那邊打大家都在等著那個書記官打字,下一頁那 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17873.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17874.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
第5有關違罪案件可不可以不經偵查就不起訴? |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17895.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17918.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
裁判書類的部分 形式的檢視或檢疫可不可以以宣示判決筆錄待之這個是大家很清楚第二個是法官助理 剛才有人提到 法官助理我們都挑文化了就是法官助理 法官要把他得新證的理由告訴那個助理 助理要記下來然後草擬 草擬之後法官要修改 修改也要訂稿 這些都要留下記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17920.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17934.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
我想這個還是有幫助但是最後一點就是民刑事的裁判大家都有講我們也把它調文化了就是說你今天如果因為不上訴的比例很高所以如果今天法官先宣判我沒有給判決書 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17935.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17959.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
那如果他說我要上訴,好,那我給你判決書我另外給你判決書以後起算,比如說20天那如果他不上訴,就到此為止就很簡要的部分這是我們詳細的11項的東西除了那個難訴還沒有調文化調文化了,但是我們沒有提出來,因為我們還在修改那我們都提到立法院去了那希望大家參考我最後要講的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17961.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17989.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
我們四年來每個月開一次會我們沒有停職我們拜會司法院、拜會法務部坦白講我有點挫折因為我如果今天是監督的立場你們不喜歡我監督我都理解但是我今天是要幫助減輕負荷當時我們有這麼多新聞在報導這件事情我們就已經努力在做但是我沒看到法務部、司法院真的採取行動太過少或者太過慢那我覺得這個部分要不只是我們這11項只是一小部分而已可以想得更多但是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17990.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
18006.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
就要注意聯名的權益要平衡不是說我很簡單嘛我就給你限制啊我就給你齁那你說算數就算數也有一些程序也要平衡齁那我們的意見不見得都成熟但是我們有經過很詳細的討論給大院做參考也各給司法機關參考謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
18009.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
18028.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
好 謝謝那因為民間司改會他其實有提一些修法的草案那我剛剛這段時間我們也稍微研究了一下那真的都蠻精闢的那再麻煩法務部跟司法院也能列入參考並回應好接下來我們請司法院的吳秘書長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
18050.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
18076.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
主席、各位委員、各位專家寫者、各位先進今天我們司法院、我們各廳、諸信處、人事處也都一起來聆聽各位先進提出來的寶貴意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18078.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
18086.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
包括民間司改會所提出來的寶貴意見我們都會通盤會長來檢討如何來面對很感謝有這樣的機會讓大家能夠共濟一堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
18101.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
18117.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
對我們現在司法的面臨的困境那大家能夠及時廣義那個人也在司法界這樣也服務滿40年剛剛那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
18120.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18132.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
明天是改會那個蔡常務執行委員他說他提到他的父親也是我最高法院的那個同事他23期我20期 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18135.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18147.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
那在這個整個這個服務生涯當中齁40年服務生涯當中啊那個人就是寫那個全股的那個判決書寫了27年半啦27年半 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18151.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18174.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
所以在那個過程裡面我深深體會裁判師的簡化 確實是一個很重要的來克服人力的一個很重要的問題所以去年6月份個人接這個秘書長職務之後就接了之後就有任何場合一定是強調裁判師簡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18178.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18200.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
而且這個裁判師簡化必須要由官方來推動因為從人性面,個別法官他假如沒有官方來推動的話那很容易會被誤為他是偷懶所以我們現在司法院把這個裁判師簡化就列為我們的重要施政綱要 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18202.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18225.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
那像剛剛先進所提到這個如何發揮效能、效力在一些訴訟程序上如何來精簡這個應該都是相當重要的啦相當重要那這個除了我們要這個發揮效能、效力、裁判所簡化從這個積極面來強力來落實之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18230.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
18231.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
18245.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
18245.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
公聽會委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
18275.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
18276.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
公聽委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
18304.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18307.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
剛剛蘇清檢委員有到場提到訴訟案件的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18321.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18339.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
在個案方面 因為還在上訴中 尚未確定既以審判獨立 司法行政是不宜介入至於在通案的規範如何完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18343.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18366.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
來提供各方遵循．這一部分 司法院我們也會來加以研議因為時間有限 我報告到這邊 謝謝謝謝秘書長國務秘書長秘書長 我的建議還是那樣啦秘書長的重點還是在人力補充啦但我跟秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18368.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18386.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
人力補充是一件重要的事,但是制度真的才是核心問題不然人種補再多,第一個跟人種要人已經非常極度困難,民進黨應該知道那我也跟人種的任市長講過很多次了,但是總緣合就是那樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18388.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18403.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
補人沒有那麼容易的情況下我還是覺得制度啦不然這種制度玩下去你再補多一倍的法官也好不到哪裡去好謝謝秘書長那接下來我們請那個蔡次長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18419.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18444.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
非常感謝,我們何其有幸,主席是我們擔任多年的檢察官甚至這個檢察官他的一個處境,一個其實法官的負荷如果如剛剛所有的前輩這樣的講,扛著自己走 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18446.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18472.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
講得心裡面非常的心酸其實檢察官的工作附和甚至有過之而無不及今天我在這裡有書面我就不贅述我要把握在這裡的時間那麼利用我也是跟我們主席一樣我也是擔任過檢察官 基層檢察官我也是擔任過20年的律師再來法務部7年半 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18474.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18501.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
其實我對於各個角色的扮演我有這個資格在這裡跟大家分享人民希望有事情就找法院所以我們的法院也希望讓人民盡用錢能夠花費但是我們要想到法院也有莊嚴的一面刑罰是最後的一個手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18503.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18526.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
大家有的希望案件少 有的希望案件多今天在場的專家 有法官退下去當律師的 因為沒有辦法再做下去 人類死掉還有檢察官當不下去的 或者是說覺得律師更好賺 也下去轉 律師也都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18527.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18554.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
那麼我個人也做了檢察官也轉到去當律師再到法務部來其實我跟各位分享從不同的角度來看檢察官起訴那麼法官希望他盡量的減少那麼判無罪法官也希望說檢察官不要再濫刑上訴這個個人都非常的認同所以每一個人都要負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18556.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18579.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
律師都希望案件多多益善因為大家在業務上才有事情可以做所以從每個人的角度來看對於司法的改革案件的附和看法都是不一而足我個人認為要疏減訟言第一個在行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18580.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18580.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18601.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18619.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
要每一個角色的人都要負責任檢察官不能濫刑上訴那麼法官對於該重判的就不能輕重這個不是法定性的問題啊你檢察官好不容易起訴一個重刑犯法官輕重這個整個都破壞掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18620.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18640.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
人民不能濫訴就是要靠律師的倫理規範很多律師鼓勵老百姓不懂法律要從刑事去告對於沒有到法院的人才可以把握到法院還甚至要用刑責來逼迫被告來就範 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18643.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18662.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
所以律師倫理規範非常的重要律師如果盡責守份對於不該走入刑庭的就要讓他用調節或者是民事來處理所以我今天在這裡要跟這個主席還有各位專家、學者法務部的檢察官現在陷入一個非常嚴重的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18669.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18685.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
我不瞞各位說我曾經啊那在報紙媒體我發表我們檢察官啊不斷的流失那麼其中有一個管道就是轉任法官以前我擔任檢察官的時候啊檢察官跟法官的護調是平衡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18687.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18700.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
現在是沒有人 幾乎沒有人法官要轉任檢察官所以我們很優秀的檢察官除了去當律師以外 很多都跑到法院去所以檢察官跟法官的互動 這個要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18702.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18726.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
我們很多優秀的檢察官除了工作互惠以外覺得心理不平衡因為優秀的檢察官跑下去當律師賺大錢之後再誘引這些優秀的學長學弟再跟著他出去當律師賺錢我當過律師我也賺過錢但是我最喜歡的工作還是檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18727.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18754.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
雖然很多事情不是用金錢衡量的但是我們必須要讓這個檢察官在任的時候他要心甘情願我們要給法官的一個待遇跟檢察官的這個待遇不能有落差因為他們都是司法官所以我們律師可以賺錢但是我覺得律師對於我們整個這個司法的案件的負荷要負一點責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18756.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18759.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
我也希望在此的司法官又有擔當 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18761.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18786.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
你認為案件為什麼一直復徵因為很多案件你一直算爛數但爛數很多很明顯的都是誤告為什麼你不簽分所以檢察官你在抱怨案件暴增的同時就把那些該簽分誤告的我敢跟你保證只要簽分一件誤告他案件很快的就會很多他就會一傳死四傳白 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18787.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18813.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
所以很多在執行案件偵查或審判告過程當中發現偽證的 發現誤告的你就給他簽分來辦這個比你叫他說你多付一點錢他就會知所進退這個要好 效果要更棒所以今天時間上的關係我也不會浪費大家的時間但是我個人除了今天這些專家先前講的要我從各個角度來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18814.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18841.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
如果我們這些現象不改案件絕對會一直增加你再增加人的速度絕對比不上案件的一個擴張所以我希望未來在行政院各部會屬於衛福的衛福要做好他有該精神經脹的部分他要做好不能所有的事情發生事情就是要找檢察官那這樣的事情檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18843.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18864.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
合理的工作負擔之後他自然有心好好辦案那麼到法院的案件他也會再去審酌真正自己沒有經過很審慎、審慎調查過經過法院推翻掉的案件不要胡亂上訴大家把各自的角色扮演好我相信這個絕對有助於這個案件的一個減少謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18868.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18868.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
行政總署副市長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18890.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18912.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
主席、各位協會專家、各機關代表、大家午安請就我們人事總署的執掌事項來跟各位做個簡單的說明那其他部分請大家想看我們所提的書面資料第一個我想依照憲法正規條文的規定因為司法院的概算是獨立的所以事實上行政院對於過去司法院的員額增加的部分我們都向來都是予以非常尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18913.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18930.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
在總原法修正之前跟總原法實施之後假如你看統計資料的話司法院的員額事實上是快速成長的那個在相對同時期行政院的相關中央的機關事實上是在精簡的而且說精簡率是相當高的這一部分我先說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18931.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18956.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
那麼司法院目前大概距離總議會高線大概還有400多人可我們也看到大概整個司法院的空缺預算大概將近在500多人那那個法務部的部分事實上也是差不多有這種情形對不起司法院是大概空缺大概在1200多人法務部的部分大概500多人不好意思剛剛講那個有點錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18958.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18981.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
那麼在整個這樣的一個情況之下我們總訴事實上對於增援的這個部分因為過去長期以來事實上我個人也參加過司法院的員和評鑑今天事實上也有學者也有提到的一些源頭減量的方法在我們過去事實上我們在相關的會議上我們都有提過但誠如林永頌律師剛剛講的那個大家就聽聽就結束了 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18983.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19006.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
所以事實上到最後為什麼我們人事總署也都不太想再派員參與的原因就是說因為在早期我們提這些意見的時候都會被司法院認為說這涉及到所謂的審判核心業務那我們也很開心也看到目前這件事情讓大家覺得說不是只有增加員員應該是整體的我們人事協議總署事實上並不是說一直摳住這個員員不換 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19008.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19027.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
重點是說我們希望一個解決問題的方法是一個全盤式的解決尤其是剛剛很多學者、專家包括我們蔡政務次長就提到源頭如果不適當的去減量的話事實上你只要看過去我們檢查體系人員、司法體系人員都是呈現成長的情況下但是為什麼這個問題會一直發生這個我們認為可能跟今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19032.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
19055.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
的學術專家跟各機關代表所跟第一線的法官、檢察官所提的意見這個部分可能要省政來思考要不要源頭部分要適當的去做處理否則我想我們再增加更多的人都沒辦法解決這樣的問題那以司法院在上次會議所提到的要增加五千多人這部分我們不談其他的硬題 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
19056.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
19057.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
19086.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
19086.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
19103.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
19105.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
最後我們也希望說未來有幾個方向來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
19120.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
19120.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
19143.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
19144.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
施法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
19172.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19172.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19195.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19195.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19204.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19227.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
好 謝謝那今天公聽會的發言就到這邊告一個段落那感謝所有與會者從不同的面向提供很多意見那今天所有的發言內容跟書面意見還有委員審發會所提的書面資料都會列入記錄刊登公報並且 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19228.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19246.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
製作公聽會的報告 送交本會全體委員跟出席人員參考這次呼籲司法院跟法務部 千萬要把今天各位專家學者的建議 要能夠審慎的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19248.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19271.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
那將來我們也會從各個面向去處理那我自己也很清楚最近案件量增加最大如果以刑事案件來說就是詐欺那詐欺後面當然還會衍生很多損害賠償的請求所以一樣的也會影響到民事事件的增長那詐欺案件的處理其實司法應該是最末端啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19272.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19295.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
前端的行政機關我們也是積極在跟各個其他行政機關去討論說怎麼樣能夠降低這些詐騙集團他所能夠使用的工具然後來降低詐騙的案件我想解決問題前端沒有處理好司法這個末端一定會崩潰所以我們接下來處理我們會是有策略的從行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19296.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19296.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
委員會主席 |