| IVOD_ID |
15868 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15868 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-01T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-01T11:57:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:27:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d648a477557a3c475ad9f551ce5fa921f3be8d109af184be41d9a76e78c80f3855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 11:57:59 |
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報告委員會：初期委員10人：已足法定人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2102.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2126.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年4月29日星期一上午9時2分至11時51分地點黃樓山林一會議室出席委員盧美林等11人列席委員謝龍介等12人列席人員國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2127.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2144.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席馬遭及委員文君．報告是相依宣讀上次會議事錄．決定確定。2、有請國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告．退輔會服務照顧及相關就補助精進作為．並備質詢。．國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告．委員盧敏林等13人質詢．均由國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬． |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2153.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2157.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
中和規劃處處長麗鋼、服務照顧處處長曹東發、人事處處長吳彥鈞、臺北榮民總醫院院長陳威明及高雄榮民總醫院院長陳金順等即席答覆。 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2167.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2191.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國軍隊處域官兵輔導委員會與二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複資本會委員另指定期限者從其所定三委員羅志強所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報通過臨時提案已案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2197.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2213.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們議事錄稍後確認,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告．如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性．以因應國安新型態風險威脅．並備質詢。宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2233.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2247.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處?若沒有我們議事錄確定我們先介紹在場的委員首先介紹陳永康陳委員羅美玲羅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2254.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2267.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
以及我們今天列席官員的名單國家安全局蔡明彥蔡局長行政院國土安全辦公室林傑林主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2273.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2283.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
本日會議邀請國家安全局及行政院國土安全辦公室報告．如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性．以因應國安新型態風險威脅．並備質詢。現在請國安局長蔡局長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2300.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2322.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生大家好非常感謝大院安排本局來進行如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性．以因應國安新型態風險威脅的專題報告以下僅就重點的內容跟各位委員先進報告如次第一大項是我國國家關鍵基礎設施安全防護的機制一、政策匯報 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2323.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2351.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那行政院為了要來確保我們的國土安全協調相關的應變的體系那設立了國土安全政策的彙報那本局是彙報的成員第二指導綱要依照2013年國土安全政策彙報的決議行政院也涵搬了國家關鍵基礎設施安全防護指導的綱要那並且成立了專案小組那本局為專案小組的成員以國安的角度來提供專業的意見三通報機制國土辦有訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2353.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2375.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
國土安全緊急通報作業規定本局是國家情報主管機關負責預警、情資的通報第二大項是有關於本局的角色第一統合國安單位來註收預警的情資本局依照國家情報工作法來統合各個國安的單位注收影響關鍵基礎設施安全預警的情資發揮情報資源行政的縱效第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2375.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2393.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
提供安全防護的專業意見本局是行政院國家關鍵基礎設施安全防護專案小組的成員那我們會從風險的辨識主要的威脅脆弱性的分析等等面向來提供專業的意見協助國土辦還有行政院其他的單位來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2394.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2416.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
關鍵基礎設施的安全防護的業務好,第三大項是有關於關鍵基礎設施面臨的風險第一,天然的災害隨著全球的環境還有氣候的變遷我國的地震、風災、颱風平仁那假如我們的水利、交通電力或電信的基礎設施受到損害的話除了造成直接的人命傷亡之外也會來間接衝擊到社會的穩定跟民生的經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2418.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2432.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
人為維安,在2017年8月15日全台大停電的事件,噪音主要是因為人為操作疏失。在2022年3月11日,桃園機場電纜也遭到承包商工程人員的剪斷和竊取。這些案例都顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2433.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2460.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
相關的設施專業人員的素質還有他們基本的一個工作的情形都會影響到關鍵基礎設施運作的效能那另外橫移到國際的戰事、恐怖活動攻擊關鍵基礎設施可以達到政治或戰爭的目的那同時再藉由各種可能的人員的潛伏來竊取設施的機敏資訊或是來破壞到設施的正常運作也都是我們比較注意到的可能的發展的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2461.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2476.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第三是在治安攻擊的部分,在治安攻擊的部分中共的網軍持續的來透過各種的侵害的手法來害侵我們的關鍵基礎設施,那這樣子可以達到來撤走政府的施政,影響我們國內的民生的安定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2477.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2504.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第48部分是有關於政策建議跟精進的作為本局僅就國家安全風險管控的角度來提出強化設施韌性精進的作為第一部分是落實雙倍元的系統以及巡檢的機制行政院已經導入了雙倍元的系統概念來加強到我們的緊急事故的應變的能力同時也在今年度則定有40處來實施行政院層級的一個巡檢的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2504.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2529.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們希望後續也能夠落實到我們巡檢的機制能夠來有效的檢視相關的設施有沒有運作上的一些韌性的問題第二部分是有關於強化人員的查核跟杜絕滲透那未來我們建議我們政府還是要持續的來透過調查局全國安全防護工作匯報以及來落實公共工程採購契約範本的有關的規範來強化我們關鍵基礎設施相關人員的安全查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2530.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2553.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第三是來機先防護演練以及強化應變。行政院每年都舉辦精華演習,來強化我們設施的韌性跟應變的作為。本局勢情報統合機關也都會派員來參加這類的一個演習。接下來是把重點放在怎麼樣來進一步結合到國防部平站轉換的一些想定,驗證我們設施平時跟變時的營運的韌性,應該是要列為我們後續實體防護演練的優先重點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2558.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2587.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第四是有關於整合政府的資源跟社會的聯防那關鍵基礎設施它涵蓋了我們中央政府各個部會地方政府以及民間的部門那我們應該要持續的來簽署資源的協定打造公司協力的夥伴關係整合各單位的資源強化國家的應處效能第五確保資訊安全跟情資的分享針對關鍵基礎設施防害的防範以及強化那我們應該要來落實資通安全管理法相關的通報應變的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2588.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2607.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
第6是加強情報收益跟掌搜的相關的發展趨勢．本局在今年的2月份有召開國家情報協調會報首長會議．也特別邀請行政院的同仁包括國土辦來參加．並且把各國強化設施韌性的具體做法．列為我們本年度情收的主要重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2608.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2627.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
最後一部分是結語那縱觀我國關鍵基礎設施的安全防護需要各單位、跨部會、公司協力共同來推動那本局會持續的以國家安全風險的角度協助我們政府來推動國土安全的政策強化關鍵基礎設施的韌性以上的報告請在場各位委員先進不吝指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2633.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2637.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好接下來我們請行政院國土安全辦公室林主任進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2646.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2673.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席還有各位委員先進還有各位女士先生大家好那今天以下就我們書面的報告進行口頭的摘要的一個說明那報告分為四個部分首先第一個關鍵基礎設施防護指導的一個架構目前為了規劃國家關鍵基礎設施也就是Ci Critical Infrastructure的安全防護事項行政院定頒國家關鍵基礎設施安全防護指導綱要有建立三層的架構來進行分類管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2674.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2697.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
首先是主領域一功能屬性分為能源、水資源、通訊傳播等八大項各個主領域會設協調機關以共享資源與資訊、訂定共同的風險管理標準二次領域在主領域下在一功能業務宅區分為次領域如能源領域會再區分為電力、石油、天然氣三個次領域每個次領域會設一個主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2699.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2725.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
負責監督、管考、協助、鎖匣CI提供者來執行安全防護及演訓的相關事宜。那第三個就是CI的提供者也就是第一線實際維運CI的機關構。第二個部分目前CI安全防護的韌性目標跟策略那是以提升CI的耐災韌性作為安全防護的目標也就是各一項作為來降低運作中斷事故的影響的程度跟影響的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2727.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2755.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
各執行的策略我們依照風險管理的三個階段是以災前預防階段為工作重點分數如下在災前預防階段我們會推動CIA安全防護計畫以全災害防護的概念實施風險管理各個CIA提供者要盤點關鍵基礎關鍵設施的資產跟脆弱點來辨識相關的風險項目風險項目必須是全災害的項目包含天災、人因事故、人為攻擊還有各種新型態的威脅等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2756.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2778.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
評估威脅的衝擊有多大之後．以設施核心功能持續營運韌性為目標．提出對應的管理措施．來擬定安全防護計畫。強化預警訊息的通報跟交流．來主動發掘違常的動態．各單位共同掌握危安症候狀況．確保影響西安安全防護．或持續營運事件的即時通報。 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2779.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2799.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
三、辦理巡檢及演練來驗證及強化應變的能量目前是建立行政院層級、部會層級以及CIA提供者三層級的巡檢跟演練機制在所謂的安全巡檢的部分指的是透過限定的巡檢來檢視各個CIA防務計畫的完整度跟落實度 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2800.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2804.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
防護演習透過桌推、兵推或是實兵演習來驗證安全防護機制與應變處置的有效度,並持續做檢討跟進進。加重惡意破壞的罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2817.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2841.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
二組不法．對Ci重要設施的．不管是實體破壞．或者是虛擬的侵害等行為．影響功能正常運作者．我們就予以刑罰．那屬意圖危害國家安全．或社會安定．或釀災的．就予以加重來二組不法．那這個總統在去年6月18號已經公布施行．第二個在災中應變階段．首先Ci要依規來應處．來防止事件的擴大． |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2842.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2860.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
此外,也要依照國土安全緊急通報作業規定來進行通報,結合各單位的力量來共同支援。第二部分是緊密的行政跟國安合作,精準研判風險威脅,試礦提升應變成績。這部分是由國家安全局負責情勢的總和研判,並參與相關應變的一個編組,而各主管機關會立即啟動相關應變的計畫, |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2866.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2889.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
會議情勢需要來提升應變的層級結合中央與地方共同應對進行情搜、警戒、防堵、搜捕行動及後續的復原工作。在後復原階段持續檢討改善營運韌性當然要緊迫完成復原工作恢復CI的正常營運為工作重點並以各事件或演習發現的缺失來持續檢討改進營運的韌性。 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2892.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2921.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第三大部分是Ci提供者安全防護韌性我們目前所要求的工作重點第一個部分是設備面要優化設備的持續營運能量首先要持續盤點設施的脆弱點及其強化措施包含資訊安全以及無人機侵擾等新型風險來強化相關的防禦措施、設備以及能量第二個要建立雙備援跟雙保險的機制另外我們也提醒重要資料要定期備份或異地備援 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2922.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2943.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
二、落實人因風險管理的作為首先設施首長是安全的總負責人另外各單位在執行的時候要落實關鍵操作要雙重確認第三在委外的場上部分身份安全要進行的查核而第四部分是限地的施工CIA的單位也應該要全程監督有建立這樣的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2945.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2967.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
3.強化各項保安防護的量能首先,依我們善用新興科技的防護,例如電子圍籬、門禁管制或記錄等科技防範措施。下一頁第二部分,我們也建議要統合運用各項保安的人力,包含民防團隊、保安警察、保全人力,統合運用以收縱效。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2968.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2991.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
是我們定期要求辦理教育訓練跟演習．來提升應變的能量．並與軍警、海巡、醫療等單位辦理演習．強化設施防護的量能。國際間CI受攻擊的比例有升高．各國也都重視CI營運的韌性跟相依性．本辦公室將持續會同各主管機關．跟CI的提供者．落實安全防護及 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2992.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3001.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
災前預防、災中應變及災後復原各階段工作並與時俱進以為設施安全的韌性以及國土安全以上報告,敬請各位委員會議指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3011.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3028.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們現在開始詢答本會委員7加2分鐘,非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右視詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3036.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3040.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
謝謝主席 有請國土辦林主任請國土辦林主任主任 不管是說我們國安局的報告或是我們國土辦的報告裏面都有特別提到就是說像國際戰事、恐怖活動其實攻擊關鍵基礎建設就可以達到這個政策、這個民心影響到這個社會的安定 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3065.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3084.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
當然我們還有看到就是我們國安局這邊還有提到說那也有人員的潛伏那裡應外合呢去起這個設施機敏的這個資訊或是刺激破壞設施的這個運作等等那臺灣對於這個這些我想我們都已經有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3086.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3088.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我會特別提到這個核電廠在2022年烏俄戰爭發生的時候其實俄羅斯那時佔領了這個車諾比這個核電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3116.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3132.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那時候就有發生就是說有人進到這個實驗室裡面呢搶走不少這個放射性的這個核廢料那這核廢料引起國際上的一陣的這個緊張大家都很擔心說這些放射性的核廢料如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3132.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3132.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我想請問這個我們林主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3163.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3183.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
謝謝委員的提醒那這個當然這個能源的設施是關鍵基礎設施的一環那核能更是其中的一部分所以相關的這個電廠的一些防護我們都有一些相關的一些防護計畫從它的脆弱點到它的整個生命週期從它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3184.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3186.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
國土安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3209.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3217.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
對,因為我們今天的題目有提到說國安新型態的風險威脅我想這個核廢料我想應該也是屬於這個國安新型態的風險威脅之一因為我們有看到俄烏戰爭所發生車諾比事件這個有些核廢料被竊取的這個事情那它衍生的可能就是還是國安的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3233.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3235.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
臺灣有核電廠可能衍生的不單單只有放射性的問題可能衍生的是未來跟戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3251.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3254.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
臺海如果發生戰爭的話他很可能我們的核電廠會是在攻擊當中這是很重要的一點那再來可能會比如說他的核廢料的這個處理也是我們要所所要擔心的因為我有看到說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3267.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3269.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
臺灣的核廢料到目前為止它的這個處理的方式還是一再的這個卡關我們可以看到說合一合二的這個乾淨計劃那什麼時候呢能夠啟用那還是一個未知數像我們核廢料其實處理的問題到目前還是未解雖然我們覺得說那未來如果發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3289.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3289.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
吳俄戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3305.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3329.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
陳諾比宣示的核廢料被竊的這個問題最主要是要提醒國土辦臺灣可能也會發生相同的這個事件因為經濟學人就在說地球上最危險的地方其實就是臺灣那這個部分可能就是要特別來審慎來思考那因為我在相關的這個報告裡面有看到就是說大家都會注意到一些說裡應外合這個問題這是讓我們覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3333.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3334.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
謝謝主席委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3362.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3362.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
蔡英文總統出訪有幫 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3386.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3387.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
國安局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3413.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3435.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
主要的這個工作我想請教就是說未來未來如果說有類似這種狀況的話我們國安局要如何加強跟完善我們正副總統的這個違安的這個工作尤其很多國家我們並沒有執法權像這種騷擾事件或公職事件如果發生的話我們要如何加強保護我們元首的這個違安的這個工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3436.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3458.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好謝謝委員那就我們的元首或是我們的安危對象在出訪期間那相關的維安工作是國安局主要的責任所以一般在行程規劃的過程當中我們大概就會派出我們的前置人員來瞭解可能維安對象到國外訪問的定點有哪些做必要的現刊那也會在現刊之後做好完備的安危的整備計畫那再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3461.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3477.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
提供相關的一個人力的配置來確保這一次的出訪行程可以完全那另外在過程當中我們也都跟當地的警察部門跟安全部門保持非常密切的聯繫在現場的相關的交通的動線以及不同場地的一個維安部署 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3477.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3477.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
主要是有所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3505.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3525.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
不明的車輛在從機場移動到飯店的過程當中他有想要尾隨車隊可是當他開始要尾隨車隊的話就已經被我們的維安人員跟當地的警力給發現了第一時間就把他排除掉了所以並沒有造成任何的金字老現象那這也反映到我們安危計畫相關的整備還算相關的完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3528.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3552.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
蔡英文總統出訪有幫到過境美國的時候那中國那時候發動了他們所謂的中國僑民那之後我們有看到一些報導就是說他們所謂的中國僑民其實還是參雜了很多海外警察站的一些成員在裡面那這些海外警察站其實很多都是中國前軍人或情報人員所組成那像這個情資我們有沒有有所掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3553.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3554.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
他們似乎不是單純的僑名 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3578.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3602.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
對,我們跟當地的警方也都還有調查單位也都掌握相關的資訊這也是為什麼我們在可能我們的維安對象到達現場之前當地的大概的情資狀況都能夠掌握得相當不錯的主要原因因為赴外訪問最重要的就是跟國際合作友方的相關對口部門建立起互信拿來加強合作,應足各種可能的狀況這確實是外訪期間最重要的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3603.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3603.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
陳詠勳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3633.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3633.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
林主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3647.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3670.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們大家看到當年馬祖海嵐斷纜的時候中華電信所承受的壓力就是說部分代收加值手機支付隨時對取得貨件關心卡商品支付兌換券全部都中斷那麼在那個階段前後拖了兩個多月那有關於當地的居民的手機也沒辦法通了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3671.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3671.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3699.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3716.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們可以看到國家安全戰略跟國防民生是合一的目標是提升我們的堅韌能力我們的方法是凝聚我們的決心跟意志手段是鞏固持續防護的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3717.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3745.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那基礎設施我們根據依據範圍韌性啊我們當然行政院有國家關鍵基礎安全設施防護計劃的指導綱要這是一個綱要那範疇剛才您包括了包括能源水資源通訊傳播交通銀行金融緊急醫療救助中央政府地方政府機關還有高科技園區它的韌性就是因為現在我們面對了這個一個是天然災害第二個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3747.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3750.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我們今天談的比較偏重在網路跟通訊提升這個通訊網路的堅韌程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3772.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3800.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那麼它的本質是因為它是容易影響群體行為所以很容易成為敵方攻略的主要的目標因為網路通訊它的前提是非常容易遭受到破壞短時間難以恢復正常的工作那我們希望的目標是確實確保我們的通訊傳播不要斷網那也就是說我們在方法上要有彈性化 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3800.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3827.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那手段分通訊設施跟載體的流量我們希望用網格化的網路不是線型的就是要交錯型的矩陣型的那在這裡面國防部跟內政部用的是不同我們國防部是有機動性載車的中繼台那麼內政部通常是Wi-Fi的高塔固定包括警消用的是同樣所以我們在提醒政府要統籌規劃精準投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3830.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3850.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
國防跟內政它的用法不同但是分享的單位都會匯集到國安局跟行政院這個地方的治安所以你要注意到就是說兩種都要有一個是機動性的第二個是固定的通信的中繼載台的轉播站那我們下面就會產生要分級分類 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3852.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3874.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那麼級別規劃是通聯最小網路頻寬這個是要跟NCC要密切協調等級越高越不能這個斷訊通聯等級越高的他要專屬的通訊網路而且要有多重的備援設計所以在這個過程中間包括國安局包括行政院國土辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3874.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3875.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3903.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3930.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
NCC是講我們跟國外簽或者是我們的科技委員會他是說國內未來120枚可以購用竹科的專家是說要400顆購用這些都有討論空間但是我們要建立一個完整的運用框架大家在把責任分攤以及它的最小需求量的時候攤出來的時候再來看我的成本能不能負擔下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3931.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3956.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
各位這個看到就是我們的海纜你看低軌衛星那麼海纜的這個通信系統它是這個傳輸量是最大的它是83這個TBPS那麼衛星通信、微波通信那衛星通信、微波通信它的量又不一樣所以衛星是最窄的再下一個那我們現在有14條海纜那麼有4個接觸點 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3964.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3978.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個東西照剛才在國土辦講的就是說我們跟中華電信都有備案所以14條海欄的修護應急我們的這個中華電信都跟外國的維修公司簽約但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3979.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3993.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
如果不是一條段或是兩條段產生了一種意外事件當然有替代方案但是替代方案的這個頻寬跟傳輸速度能不能解決這個應急時候的需求跟暫時是另外一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3994.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4012.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以我們希望在這個框架下第一個我們要建立一個就是說在國土辦有一個共同圖像把你的關鍵基礎設施不同的領域你都標註出來比方我們的超高壓345千伏的配電所它的位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4014.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4036.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
剛才講我們已經有了跟民間簽約或保全簽約甚至未來的寶二總隊都能夠維護但是它的精準位置分配點我們希望能夠你有一個一套軟體能夠把不同的比方講這個所有這個能源輸送下卸的港口傳輸管線能夠顯示高壓電塔28000座高壓電塔的位置能顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4039.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4039.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
海上交通線 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4062.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4085.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
海上交通線是能源進出的必要管道它跟海欄的重要性是相同的所以我們看下面的國家通信委員會NCC表示在立法院三讀通過電信管理法修正條文從過去單一點的保護擴大到納入保護現在海點我們海欄14個海欄 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4087.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4116.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
有14條海岸有4個登陸點這包括基防、纜線、內陸、間接站、鏈路設備跟國際通信交換機這個就是剛剛講的這個CEI要有double redundancy那要短時間能夠有替代方案比方講我們跟這個NCC跟OneWeb簽的約是說我們境內有700個點境外16個點這700個點再用微波再跟local的地方大家end user可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4116.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4135.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
可是我們要了解NCC簽約跟英國公司簽約條約的段數有沒有在暫時不可抗力因素它的服務範疇受到影響這個我們希望能夠掌握而不是NCC說我簽的約這個分給你國軍分給你政府分給你多少單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4136.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4136.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4151.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4167.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
謝謝陳委員的指教陳委員真的對於我們相關的韌性的防護非常的了解那就整個的共同圖像的部分我們也非常認同委員剛剛所提的那我們就以通訊韌性為例目前我們的做法也是由海 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4167.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4187.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
路、空這三個的共同圖像來組合而成那海的部分剛有提到在海欄海欄除了現行的海欄之外我們當然還會有持續的一些相關的措施來進行強化那在路上的部分有相關的民營的通訊業者如何在災難的時候這個基地台互用 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4188.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4188.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
以上,謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4211.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4224.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
謝謝我們也希望在這個就所謂的Ci關鍵基礎下它的redundancy並不是只double配置甚至要多層然後也有替代方案那個我們希望大家下來後共同努力謝謝謝謝陳委員接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4246.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4249.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
謝謝主席,我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝謝主席,學友們早 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4258.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4284.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個局長我想請問一下在我們國安局的業務裡面那要收集很多相關的情報那有沒有關於包含是我們重要的比如說總統、副總統、總統當選人準副總統當選人相關的情資都應該要有一併的掌握並且對一些虛假的消息要進行一定程度的快速處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4286.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4293.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
對,對於各種的錯假訊息在網路上社群媒體的傳播那國安局確實都有在做必要的助手 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4294.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4315.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
好那這邊要跟您講一下在今年一月初開始呢在PTT在Mobile01在Dcard上面呢都有一篇文章他雖然沒有指名道姓可是他在上面虛構的很多東西都符合蕭准副總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4317.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4340.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這個事情當時也沒有媒體做了報導但文章貼了好幾個月也沒有被撤銷也沒有被相關的機關認定為假消息處理對於國安局來說政府元首的輿論或者當時他是如果說過去駐美代表等等當時一月已經是準副總統了 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4341.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4361.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那似乎這也是國家安全的一環我們把圖放大看之後你可以看到前一張比方說你看影射蕭美琴有神秘男友嗎美女副總統背後的男孩是誰然後另外一篇美女副總統與阿美族男孩的愛情故事 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4362.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4391.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
他當然用了一些影射的手法比方說呢他故事裡面提到兩個人他把所謂的我現在講的都不是真實的請您諒解我只在解釋說他是怎麼樣去描述這個過程他就把呢要影射蕭美琴副總統的說成喵HK然後呢跟另外一位叫做俊彥或者是他會稱呼他為米漾阿道可能是一位原住民朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4391.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4411.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那他上面的名稱寫到文章裡面關於所謂的喵HK等等的當你比對蕭美琴他準副總統的包含他的生平年月是比對的起來的所以他就很明顯的是在影射我們的蕭副總統那這個資料上很難讓人不去聯想他想要可能惡意的去操作這樣子的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4421.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4434.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那另外一個男生也就是這個男主角民國69年阿美族的男孩在高雄出生名字叫做俊彥原住民的名字叫做米央在東華大學念書的時候剛好認識了這個喵HK那當時PTT的網友就在網路搜尋也可以查到這個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4443.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4450.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這個人剛好就是花蓮肖美琴之友會的理事看到這邊圈起來的理事在這裡有出現這個名字然後也有所謂的這邊都有介紹美女副總統和阿美族男孩的愛情故事 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4461.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4471.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
然後也有所謂的大合照我們看一下合照這一位是我們蕭美琴準副總統後面我們把大家的資料都碼掉了就是被寫出來的這一位那這個文章裡面比較麻煩的地方如果他只是就是寫一寫就像小說一樣的情節那我今天不會跟局長來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4484.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4511.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
但重點在於這篇文章裡面提及他們的個人背景相識過程同居一起工作而且他還寫道這位男士見過我們的蔡總統還跟著所謂的蕭美琴我們都不證實這個事情因為我也沒有辦法查證他有可能是假消息或是認知作戰一起去美國工作你看我標起來的地方見過總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4513.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4519.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
甚至最重要的部分在下面這裡他寫什麼這個男性一方面利用台灣的稅金幫喵HK也就是aka蕭美琴接觸在美國的軍火商、智庫和政要成功推動了培洛西、龐佩歐來台一方面替蕭美琴這個暗示蕭美琴收錢和美國人達成協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4543.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4557.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
買來豬買武器特別是幫助台積電赴美建廠這些都給他們帶來的巨大財富、豪車別墅、香檳美酒進入了米央的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4558.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4576.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
雖然這個文章也一直說是虛構故事但是他又鉅細靡遺的甚至提到還有副總統財產申報等等的事件這個文章上面的問題又涉及到臺美外交的問題也涉及到了我們準副總統的相關資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4578.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4601.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
而這個內容呢從今年的1月到現在沒有被處理在網路上面我昨天還去搜尋都還看得到反而是有的社群賬號不見了那蕭美琴過去準總統準副總統她是駐美大使我不曉得國安局對於這樣子的內容是否有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4602.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4621.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那要怎麼樣核實或是處理這種系統性的文章呢尤其當權者身旁的人員如果真的有涉及這樣子重大的爭議難道不應該核實嗎請問局長對於今天我所陳述的這個部分你們會有什麼樣的具體作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4622.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4622.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那請問這一篇有掌握嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4638.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4638.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這個選擇單位是哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4658.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4685.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我舉個例子,我們在一個禮拜可能可以篩略到有兩三萬則的錯假訊息那我們會大概會分析一下它的真實性的初步的狀況那我們會通報到國安會每一個禮拜應該都有五六千則另外也會通報到行政院由全則單位來經過我們的通報之後針對各種的可能錯假訊息來做進一步的判定到底有沒有必要再做進一步的處理或回應依委員剛剛所提到這一則我們有通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4686.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4707.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
你們通報之後的決定是什麼?不用處理?我們情報機關不會去涉入到行政部門後續的一個處理的狀況。你們通報之後,你們通報之後,這個事情是通報到行政院的哪一個單位?對,我們有通報到國安會跟行政院,都有通報。行政院院本部嗎?還是行政院的轄下的哪一個單位? |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4711.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4715.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我仍然認為像這樣子的訊息是需要處理甚至下架的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4738.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4753.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
因為它裡面已經暗示了就是說我國的副總統的影射的男朋友他有去接觸在美國的軍火商這對我國的聲譽還有民眾看到了之後會產生巨大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4754.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4760.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那既然你們有掌握也通報了國安會我實在不明白為什麼這麼嚴重的一個相關的訊息在網路上面不斷的被轉傳不斷的被看到不斷的讓民眾接受到錯誤的訊息甚至可能對我們的蕭美琴的副總統那產生了錯誤的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4778.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4806.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這個對我們的國家也是一點好處都沒有所以我想要請問局長最後的是當我今天把這樣子的訊息提出來之後你們會不會再度通報或者是說建議國安會必須針對這樣子的文章再進行一次處置呢對我們謝謝委員的提醒那我們也會依照國安局的權責再來做相關的一個通報跟確認好那如果有下架的話請再通知我好嗎謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4812.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4813.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
主席,我們有請蔡局長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4840.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4867.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好 謝謝主席 聯委人長早安 我們來討論一個就是有關於國家安全的部分我想這個是局長跟您的同仁每天都要面對的那麼就是我們知道其實接觸了機敏的資料的話那麼對於這些接觸機敏資料的人員來講的話那麼一定如果到所謂中國的話都有它的限制那這個以國防部的話是在現役或退職人員當中只要進入所謂的大陸地區的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4868.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4884.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那麼會有一個機密的限制那麼這個機密的如果是絕對機密者呢是5年那麼如果是即機密是4年機密為3年這樣的一個年限的限制喔我想請問一下局長包括這個法案的制定的過程他的用意是在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4885.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4910.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
對我想主要當時在聯合人民關係條例會去觸及到這樣的一個法律條文那當然是基於對於國家基民資訊的保護所以當時的主要的對象是針對我們行政部門的各個官員也包括到地方政府的主要的首長那在賦錄之前可能要經過相關的一個聯審的機制才能夠確定到賦錄期間會不會把基民的資訊有外洩的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4910.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4939.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
好,所以說這個所謂的絕對機密或即機密或是機密這個是由當時他們所曾經參與的會議或是可以接觸的文件來做限制嗎?對,因為就國家的機密等級本來就是分為有關委員所提到的這幾類的機密那現在就是依照機密的等級的這種機敏的程度來針對進入對岸的一個管制的期間來做一個相關期程的一個安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4939.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4955.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
本席會問這個是因為我們知道最近這個新的國會開議之後那麼許多的這些委員們尤其在司法法治委員會最熱烈討論的就是有關於國會改革那麼在國會改革的過程當中外界都把這個焦點放在這個所謂藐視官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4956.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4974.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
呃,表示,呃,表示國會,官員表示國會這個部分要關三年,但是事實上我自己個人一直認為啦齁,國會改革的面向有很多,不只是我們現在在質詢台上我對你的質詢,包括什麼,還包括了就是立法委員自己本身如何讓自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4974.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4997.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
的國會運作自己的質詢能夠變得更好其實我剛剛一直在詢問你的是有關於絕對機密及機密或者是機密到底要如何界定因為就以我們國防外交委員會來講好了以我們自己現在所在的這個會期到現在我們一共有一次的機密考察兩次的機密會議一個是到南部去看我們的潛艦相關的這個現場的狀況再來就是包括局長你也來過報告一次國防部也來報告一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5004.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5006.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
行政部門對於絕對機密及機密跟機密我們有一個分類的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5019.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5043.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
主要財閣權還是在部會首長部長級的官員來做相關的財閣包括我本人那另外在委員會的部分我想這部分應該要依照貴院貴委員會有關於機密分類的一個有沒有一個內部的一個規範那我們會所以這變成是變成我們的內規就對了對我們來尊重貴院的一個規範但是可以確定的是它絕對是機密吧是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5045.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5049.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我想在場的大家包括我在內都知道這樣的機密會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5050.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5074.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
除了人員要有嚴格的管控甚至於只有立委可以進來立委的手機、行動裝置都得要放到外面然後我們看的每一份資料上面都有編列編號甚至於寫上每一個委員的大名你在領取的時候要簽名你在交回的時候要簽名而且要簽下保密協定就算它不是極機密超級機密也是機密那如果是這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5076.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5092.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我認為刮別人的鬍子要把自己的鬍子刮乾淨我們今天在立法院我們可以定藐視國會最要官員關三年那麼如果要講到國會改革的時候我自己認為以身作則立法委員接觸了機密但是如果馬上到中國去 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5093.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5116.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
然後接觸到的是中國相關的人士那麼在這樣的言談之間的時候真的必須要自己先做好自己的這個部分因為這些機密也有很有可能是官員退休降臨或是現職降臨或是行政官員剛剛你也講到包括連地方首長那會不會立法委員反而成為洩密的漏洞呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5118.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5143.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我想尊重委員的一些意見像我剛剛有跟委員說明到的就我們國安的角度來講我們會認為對於國家重要機密的保護是非常重要的那在過去幾年我們的法規規範裡面對於行政部門已經做了相關的一個蠻嚴格的規範那假如立法部門也能夠有相關的討論或有一些相關的規範或自律的機制的話那我想需要國安局來提供相關意見我們都非常的樂意 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5143.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5168.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好,所以,那我想就叫國安局的意見就是,包括現場沈博洋委員,還有我,中央運行委員,蘇巧慧委員跟王定宇,我們曾經提出有關於兩岸人民關係條例的修正,就是希望民意代表跟其他從事我國相關利益,然後曾到立法院來參加機密會議者,如果進入大陸地區必須要經過申請,但是很可惜的是這樣的法案,連討論都沒有辦法討論,在程序委員會就直接被封殺了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5170.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5176.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我只就教您的專業您不用擔心因為藐視國會罪還沒有通過就算是您現在下來這個法律通常不溯及既往您可以回答我的問題就專業來說這樣的法案是不是把我剛剛所講的參與過機密會議但是直接沒有所謂的任何的時間第一時間喔三月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5192.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5214.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
4月份的機密會議結束馬上隔一週就到中國去這是不是一個漏洞那這樣的漏洞是不是應該把它補強起來對,我們剛剛提到的一些提案的內容的精神我們大概可以理解主要的關切重點在哪裡那這部分我剛剛也做了一些說明那但是對於一些提案過程當中在立法院的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5215.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5217.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我們尊重委員在立法院裡面的討論畢竟還是在你們院內做必要的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5232.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5245.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
國外的話確實在過去這幾年對於這種國家安全的法制反間諜、反滲透的法制確實非常積極的賴立法我的粗淺的理解沒有記錯的話過去這兩三年應該有美國、英國、法國、荷蘭、日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5247.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5263.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
韓國、澳洲、印度11個國家再加上歐盟都通過相關的立法規範那主要重點都是把它著重在怎麼樣來界定間諜的行為怎麼樣來加重相關的罰則所以這已經變成是國際社會在這個部分關切的一個重點也是一個主要的立法的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5264.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5287.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以說對我來講我認為像這樣的法案其實是為了讓國家更好而且我也希望立法委員是可以做一個表率不要永遠就是一隻手指頭指著別人只看到那一隻手指頭我自己認為我們自己可以做到好的可以讓國家更好的國會改革應該是從我們自己改革開始而不是一打招砍向別人那麼我覺得這個根本就是華天下之大雞接下來我要請主席幫我邀請的是我們的國土辦的林主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5294.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5301.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
請林主任委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5302.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5321.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
林主任有關於這個國家的這個安全的部分關鍵基礎設施您在報告也特別提到了其實媒體也是其中的一環那麼因為時間有限我就先總結的來說就是在整體來講媒體是我們非常重要的一個傳播工具那麼包括中央社包括民視甚至於聯合報都曾經遭受到強烈的攻擊不論是要駭入竊取資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5328.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5348.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
又或者是呢造成這個相關的瀏覽的數量暴增變成是癱瘓喔那麼甚至於也曾經出現過不明的新聞的標題喔那像這樣的一個所謂媒體遭受攻擊的過程當中紅色資訊戰他今天即一旦可以駭入之後他有可能是成為 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5351.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5368.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
發錯假訊息的一個管道那我們知道現在在台灣每一個人幾乎都是人手一級甚至於兩級甚至於行動裝置都非常多那麼在這個部分我們有沒有考慮到或者是協助媒體在強化他的資訊安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5369.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5385.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
是,謝謝委員那個因為在媒體也是我們部分重要的媒體設施也是我們關鍵基礎設施的一環那所以相關的這些媒體設施也都是我們資通安全管理法所規範的對象因此在相關的人員、設備、技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5388.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5414.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
集合的規定都有相關的一些規定那包含要內機也要外機外機就是由這個治安署甚至是國土辦也會會同一起去做一些了解跟協助那當然這是事前的防範那如果事中遇到了一些相關的一些應變的處置作為的時候政府也有一些相關的資源會來幫忙做一些協助例如遇到DDOS的攻擊當然我們就要幫他清洗流量做短做一些疏導 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5415.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5416.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
接下來請沈博洋委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5449.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5450.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我今天最主要是想要問幾個小地方但我先從一個小案例問起 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5487.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5507.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我先從這個鐵路的部分開始問起就是說我們的高鐵的這個鐵道系統前陣子受到這一個受到破壞這不是敵人我只是說可能而已那它其實呢因為那一個供電的纜線跟訊號的那個纜線看起來非常的相像那當時的人員是說他以為是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5507.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5533.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
他們的研判以為是說可以偷的東西結果發現是這個但因為在目前的架構之下我們這一個高鐵本身的這個很多的電線這個不是那個電線那一個光纖它其實也有給很多人使用所以本身那也算是一個關鍵基礎設施那我想問一下說這件事情的後續就是說我們對於像這種事情因為畢竟它很簡單的被破壞到了那這件事情的後續就是我們要怎麼去防範不知道後來有沒有什麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5535.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5557.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
就樣態我先做說明再請國土辦計劃作為的部分再做一些補充就威脅樣態來講我們剛剛在書面報告也跟委員們有稍微提到這個部分人為威脅的部分他可能因為刻意的蓄意的破壞或是我們局的案例也曾經有類似剪斷台鐵的電纜的一個相關的案例影響到正常的一個運輸系統的一個運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5559.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5582.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
對於我們的整體的交通網絡會造成蠻大的一個衝擊那我們會建議說在應應這樣的樣態的過程當中可能我們的相關的交通運輸系統可能要針對不同的這種威脅的來源要檢視一下鐵路網路有沒有哪些的脆弱點那要加強平時的巡檢那做必要的演練來提升相關的韌性那計畫作為部分我們再請國土辦來做補充謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5584.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5600.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個案子我們有去了解那已經有處理的一個進展了那目前就整個台鐵的這個光纖的網路的配置它其實光纖只要剪斷因為它是迴路型的就知道哪裡破壞所以一定要維持行車的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5601.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5620.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
如果有相關的這樣的事情會馬上處理。第二個就是要怎麼提升韌性,讓它快速的復原。所以相關的就近的一些設備的布置趕快搶修復原這個動作都有做一些準備。那另外我們也已經攀點過全國這種類似的案例的所在點,要針對點的部分馬上做加強。 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5622.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5648.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那我為什麼提這一點有幾個因素第一個它是一個實體的破壞實體的破壞其實跟駭客的這個防護比起來那個方法會比較不一樣這是第一個那第二個就是因為520其實也快到了那當然會有比較大的運輸量會在這個519或520發生那對我們來講在前陣子上一次的520他們最主要就是攻擊中油那在這幾個月照理說他們能夠攻擊假設今天中國想要去做干預他能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5653.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5673.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他的能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施我覺得蠻重要的當然還包含我們的電網那之前我在看這些業者相關的一些內部資料就發現在這幾個月他們攻擊電網的這個機率變高了我覺得這是一個警訊那第二個警訊就是說呢通常中國他去攻擊任何的東西他一定要搭配假消息的攻擊那在過去兩個月呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5674.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5699.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
跟電有關的假消息變得非常多來自於中國那我覺得這是很特別的一件事情是因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨啦很少是中國中國今天會加入我認為是一件很詭異的事情所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意那接下來我想講的就是現在因為真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施除了實體之外另外還有一個是駭客攻擊然後另外還有一個就是間諜 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5700.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5727.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那我想先講一下駭客攻擊的部分就是這個是在2023、5月所以大概已經快一年以前了就是那一個福特颱風這件事情那當時呢他當然最主要是在攻擊美國的關鍵基礎設施從中國的攻擊那他不是在攻擊台灣但是我們在看一些相關報導的時候因為他有去碰關島啦那去碰關島之後呢結果呢有媒體分析認為說他們在做這個攻擊其實最主要的目標可能是台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5728.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5746.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個是大概一年前發生的,那跟我們剛剛前面講的,目前我們看到一些情資的研判,或許有一些重疊的地方。那我這邊要問的是,因為我今天有看到這一個兩個單位的一個夜報,然後裡面有提到怎麼做防護啊,怎麼做預防等等之類的。所以我這邊稍微整理了一下就是,當時這個我先暫時跳過,因為這個剛剛這個我們的曾鴻康委員有提過這個電纜的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5750.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5768.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
所以說關島當時做了這樣的一個回應第一個是他們的國民警衛對他們的那個Guard舉辦了一個大概100人的一個這個討論那他參與的人呢因為他是他也是強調類似有像我們全民防衛那種hall of government那種整體這個的回應那參與的人包含他們的國土安全局技術辦公室還有FBI |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5770.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5792.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
還有聯邦的緊急事務管理署、印太司令部、網路司令部等等之類的也就是說他們參與的人員很廣為了應對這件對於關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊然後接下來呢他去做了一個best practice就是說他們直接去分析說那他們現在的優勢是什麼他們的劣勢是什麼如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話要做什麼樣的預判然後制定了章程 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5793.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5814.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
因為應對台灣現在來做的這個應處的話目前我們有看到第一個就是我們有匯報但是我們匯報能夠涵蓋的成績跟這一個有沒有落差這是第一個然後第二個就是相關的這個章程就是我看這個我記得是國土辦這邊有提到就是有相關的規範跟章程大概有一個類似SOP的東西那這一個東西跟這一個所謂的章程 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5816.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5835.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
他能不能夠有這個best practice會不會譬如說每幾個月相關的單位他能夠來做練習練習的時候呢他甚至有這種紅藍的對抗然後對抗之後呢今天又分析出來說發現我們的弱勢在哪裡這個機制有沒有在進行就是我們現在業報裡面講的跟現在我們看到關島在做的它有沒有落差還是非常類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5836.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5864.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我先就那個個案的部分做個補充然後就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體我們有長期的在關注那這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體到底他的攻擊手法樣態是什麼以及他們的攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些的特定目標那我們都有做一些相關的分析那同時也跟國外的一些相關的機關來分享我們在情資上所得到的一個訊息來做一個比對那我覺得在進行這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5864.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5869.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這沒有辦法單靠台灣自己的力量來針對這些中共的駭客團體的全球性的攻擊來做因應那交換資訊跟經驗非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5880.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5903.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
至於我們應備的一個相關的體制來講有所謂的政策匯報層級那也有所謂的指導綱要的一個部分那針對這種可能的威脅的樣態各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作然後也透過必要的一個演練來強化我們的韌性那大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5904.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5932.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那因為我為什麼問這個問題就是因為當然這可能有點事實機密就是說我們現在對於這個中國駭客的分類比如說他們前期之前在做的可能像中油的這一次可能APT41那就像剛剛局長提到的我們今天跟美方或者說跟其他的這些國家在分享情報的時候我們當然可以先去分類去預判說這次是APT40還是APT10、APT41可以做一些分類那但是我剛剛想前面講的就是說當我們做完分類之後有沒有相關的一些演練 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5933.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5954.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
因為就等於說要有一個對抗也就是說我們要怎麼去分析就是說我們現在的優勢劣勢這個部分那我們多久來做一次那這個部分如果說這個不宜在這邊講的話那我們就私底下到時候如果要到辦公室討論的話這個沒有什麼問題但是就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性的而且可能要廣大更多的組織進來這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5956.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5981.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
很簡單說明一下我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練那另外國安局除了我們本身本局以外也會整合我們相關的國安單位我沒有記錯的話我們今年會私訊的課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程那私訊完之後會有四千多人次的國內國安團隊的治安人員會參與相關的訓練所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點謝謝委員提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5981.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6007.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那相關的一些民間的一些企業呢我覺得當然也是可以納入因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的一個分類標準每個人分類標準也不太一樣apt40 41是其中一套嘛然後也有很多套了所以這個部分大家要怎麼think我覺得當然是蠻重要的我們發生過apt31跟apt41我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程當中發現了我們在界定上他們行為樣態好像有不同的見解那也是透過不斷的加油來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6009.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6031.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
最後一個因為時間因素我就來不及講我稍微講一下就好了就最後就間諜因為畢竟以間諜來講現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了那其實在國外都有發生那對於我們這些高風險人物的控管剛剛楚英委員其實有提到就是說其實像立法委員會接觸到非常多的機密那當然我這邊幫忙update一下就是因為昨天在程序委員會一樣的案子結果過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6033.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6033.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
應該的,有需要我們來提供專業意見,我們來提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6062.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6063.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
馬文君主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6083.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6109.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
局長早,局長剛剛您提到現在在近幾年其實很多國家包括美國英國法國德國等等其他很多國家現階段對於很多的間諜的行為其實都可能要如何界定然後都有比較明確的規範甚至罰則也加重那像這樣子的間諜行為比如說像我們在國內發生的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6113.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6117.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
最近大家很喜歡講到潛艦潛艦從開始到現在一直風波不斷然後他到底洩密洩了什麼密洩給誰誰洩的密這個到現在都還說不清楚可是我們現在要先釐清的我們很贊成應該要把它查查清楚在潛艦開始設計建造一直到現在下水甚至現在要做博港測試未來的海事等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6143.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6167.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個過程當中很多的媒體都有第一手的資料如果這是極機密的一個案子照理說他都不可以洩漏到底是誰洩漏的這個應該要首先查查清楚第二個如果在這個過程當中有一些不該講而講甚至不應該知道的人都可以上電視節目可以上媒體可以在自己的直播、臉書上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6173.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6190.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
傳達了甚至洩漏了非常多的潛艦的機密資料這個到底要不要查身為國安單位就這個部分等一下我們請局長稍微說明一下因為到底洩什麼密這個很清楚如果按照這樣的邏輯今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6192.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6196.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
會從事間諜活動不是只針對中國對其他的國家都一樣你只要出賣國家的利益出賣國家的一些情報資料機密的資料都叫泄密你泄給美國也是泄給歐洲國家也是甚至泄給立陶宛捷克都是或者甚至泄給東南亞國家不只中國這個部分我們贊成可以嚴格的去執行甚至立法可是不要自我閹割 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6221.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6238.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我再舉個例子來說好了越南跟泰國泰國是全世界第一個情報中心這個國安局長應該知道吧那泰國可不可以去你在泰國不會接觸到其他的中國間諜嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6241.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6258.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
因為一直提這樣子的案子讓人家覺得你是自己去不了然後也不讓別人去你今天如果會發生間諜的行為都可以查而且應該要往前追溯這一種因為你的行為是之前發生的在我們之前有很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6258.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6282.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
身為外交國防委員會都參與非常多次機敏的會議資料有看過的甚至在軍購或者其他的採購上面其實都有接觸到機密資料的這些人甚至跟中國女子過從甚密這些人有一些他們在中國其實是有成立公司的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6283.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6289.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這些成員裡面也有人他的直系親屬是在中國擔任重要的包括師級的這樣子的職業 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6294.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6318.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
他們不該被懷疑嗎?你今天如果身為立法委員都不知道自己應該有的分寸老是喜歡用這樣子泄密然後意識形態的一個做法提案可以啊以後都不要出國只要你接觸過這樣機敏資料因為泰國、越南你也不可以去越南現在是什麼樣的地方?泰國是全球情報中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6319.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6335.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所有的很多的機敏資料都從那裡傳達出去的我們也不要做國會外交啊你哪裡都不應該去今天是你自己身份還有你自己的行為自己要去把它拿捏犯法就辦包括過去的一併來查本席贊成很多你如果重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6343.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6359.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
直系親屬或者你的很重要的親屬在對岸做生意請他都撤資請他都不可以參與請他通通要可能要自親這個我們同意可以立這樣的法甚至都不要出國 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6361.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6389.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
只要是立法委員參與過機密會議的都不要出國另外還有一個所謂的機密會議是我們立法院排的你有時候來報的時候甚至只是只有業務上的機密裡面根本也沒有什麼機密資料我們只是希望可以保全比較重要的一個會議內容所以才排機密會議啊那麼以後都不要排我們都排公開就好了啊那你們自己去拿捏你到底要不要報可以怎麼報 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6390.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6393.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那你私下去委員那裡,私下去辦公室報的算不算? |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6396.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6402.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
哪一些法案提案一直在這裡不斷不斷的繞然後一直在說洩密然後又不查你把它查清楚啊從過去到現在洩潛見機密最多的是誰為什麼所有的媒體都可以把它看得出來而且是跟我們的內容是一致的哦甚至都是超前還更完整那些該不該查你如果可以查得出來才來提這樣子的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6422.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6447.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
立法委員自我閹割不斷提議事形態的案子可以一直討論國安局長今天我們現在在這裡討論的就這個部分我們認同加重因為現在台海局勢緊張兩岸關係地緣政治的關係我們都必須要更慎重更謹慎以視同仁這個部分局長怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6447.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6473.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
好,謝謝委員的關切。就剛剛委員所提到的內容重點我大概做幾點補充。第一個,我們的國家確實是有面臨到外力嚴重滲透威脅的一個處境。那面對這樣的處境,我們確實需要一個比較完備的法律的體制,讓相關單位可以有妥善的法律工具來應處各種的威脅,這大概是第一點。那第二點,剛剛也跟其他委員有報告過,國際社會,特別是有門國家,對於這個議題,所謂的國安, |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6475.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6475.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我再講 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6491.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6507.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那你間諜的行為是只針對一個國家或者到每一個國家都可能發生甚至在台灣都可能發生你們不是說內外大家都已經在配合嗎你們甚至還有第幾縱隊大家都認為說這在台灣都可能發生的情況之下間諜應該要怎麼界定我們贊成加重處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6511.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6538.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
對 就是在界定的部分我是覺得可以再有更多的討論那另外就是在相關的一個法規或自律的規範那這部分我們會尊重立法院各位委員先進們你們大概在討論之後怎麼樣的一個規範會比較切合到我們國家安全環境的需求那這部分我們尊重那需要我們來提供意見我們會來提供意見那委員涉及到個案的部分因為有些個案它已經涉及到在司法機關處理的過程當中有些根本沒有處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6539.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6562.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我剛剛提到的很多個案包括你的投資包括你過程深密包括你的關係密切還有包括在那裡職業的這些部分從來沒有查過那這些幫我拿進來往前推然後應該查的都查我們沒有不說我台灣的法律照理說應該要不塑集既往可是現在我們發現都往往是塑集既往而且只要想辦就辦年金就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6565.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6590.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以我們希望就很多的法案要提的時候大家可以更審慎的然後大家把看法都提出來尤其是國安單位就這個部分因為你們是負權者的在很多的資訊的掌控或者收集或者應該要怎麼預防你們應該要提出更完整的資訊可以讓大家去看今天所有的國家我們本來今天還要講到基礎設施的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6593.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6601.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我們有很多現在中部最大的一個基礎設施最敏感的是哪裡?局長知道嗎?電力的在哪裡你知道嗎?921也發生過問題啊中寮的超高壓開閉所 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6613.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6626.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們現在當我們農業縣都在承擔很多中寮就在我們南投縣所有的高壓電塔布的密密麻麻一年不過補貼人家一千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6628.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6641.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那些土地都不能做什麼到處都是高壓電塔不危險嗎你今天這個基礎設施一旦被破壞九二一大地震的時候引發650萬戶停電為什麼因為它的電塔倒塌因為它的線路斷掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6648.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6665.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
今天我們承擔這麼多的國家重要的有一些的基礎設施可是當我們農產品賣不出去的時候在我們的土地上種的農產品賣不出去的時候當我們的觀光業沒有人來的時候你現在要漲電價然後又不准這個來那個來哀鴻遍野你怎麼還可以在這裡大聲的說這個不行那個不行那你政府把它做好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6678.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6695.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以我們在這裡希望大家是可以持平的今天為了國家的安全今天為了我們所有整體的國家利益那個大家都可以認同可是不是在這裡隨便指控別人在這裡開上一次開的那個機密會議裡面的內容媒體通通報導過了有一個前顧問在很多的地方講的還更多那個怎麼不講那個怎麼不辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6706.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6722.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
找自己的立法委員開刀大家都不要出國包括泰國這是本席的意見如果要那以後立法委員只要參加過這樣的基民會議的這樣的過程通通不要出國也不要做國會外交這樣可行嗎?局長您看法我們尊重立法院各位委員對相關問題的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6727.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6747.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以我們希望局長也要提出比較具體可行而且是持平的建議因為這樣才可以讓國家更好而且才可以凝聚向心力也可以才讓大家在所有的事情上面用比較客觀的態度大家共同來探討今天如果你指責一件大家都會互相一直指責來指責去 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6749.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6761.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
對所有的事情還有所有的國家政策發展一點注意都沒有這是我們今天特別提出來也請局長就這個部分在後續也可以提出更完整的這些持平的一個建議跟說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6776.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6796.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
下面請王定宇委員我今天是說大家拿出來的應該就這樣子好不好好謝謝麻煩蔡局長謝謝蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6805.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6819.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
局長早我們今天這個題目其實訂的還蠻精準的三個名詞C.I.關鍵基礎設施第二個新型態威脅第三個因應這三個題目精準但是很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6820.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6837.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令要求國土安全部網路安全跟基礎設施安全局CISA針對公部門與 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6841.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6850.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統這是指民間在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP定義跟處理方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6851.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6876.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那我現在要先請教局長在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它對關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的我們相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定那韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護我們是一個正面表現的方式嗎對對都有正面表現的方式因為現在時代進步非常快 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6876.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6902.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
比如說NVIDIA的AI晶片在大概5年前其實是那個圖像晶片並沒有像現在那麼受重視可是過了3、5年團間它就進入到另外一個level或者這個Low Orbit就是那個低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見現在因為馬斯克等等所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面對我們定期都會有開相關的一個正式會表 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6903.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6908.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
每一年都有召開一年一次會不會太那個間隔會不會太長 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6910.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6935.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
對,但每一次在開會的過程當中我們也會針對一些比較新的發展那我們現在有專責單位去收集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嗎?這部分行政院的國土辦這邊是負責那國土辦你現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情?報告委員,目前有24位人力但是國土辦主要是做統合啦你其實還要指揮其他單位那剛才講一年討論一次什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6937.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6952.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
幫委員那個政策會報是一年一次但是適時的時候會召開而有相關的業務會報由政委來做你們上次召開是什麼時候上次是在今年的一月多一月多召開對阿副院長有指示有指示要進這個一月多有沒有增設 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6954.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6973.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
目前沒有但是剛委員所提的齁在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵的這個科技技術裡面在相關的其他法令有些規範因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施齁那基礎設施裡面通常講的是有水我是建議林傑主任是第一個我們現在520新的部會首長會上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6974.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6989.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
會有些新的想法是那我們常常太分散尤其講到資安啊講到灰色地帶啊或者叫Hybrid Warfare啊它會分散在很多單位我們在軍方也會看到國安局會看到你們那裡也會看到所以有時候會鬆散掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6992.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7017.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這個東西不能掛一漏萬的那我現在請問就是說既然公司領域都有公司領域都有那美國有公布這個標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式2021年5月跟7月後來他們就編了錢開始去做這個設施甚至於我印象是拜登總統把半導體列為關鍵基礎設施還弄了一個很大的一個很大筆金額的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7018.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7031.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們台灣現在關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎有那民營的有哪些可以舉例出來有一些通訊的或者是廣播的通訊基地台嗎還有一些是醫療設施你的通訊是指 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7038.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7050.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
光線網絡啦、出地台啦、交換機啦是指什麼?就是我們講的通常是...抱歉委員因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明但是就是在通訊方面相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7053.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7078.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
比如說台積電很清楚媒體有報告他算嗎?台積電是民間的業者是單純他提供的是一些服務所以他並不是提供給大眾的公共的我們所定義的基礎服務但他是重要的設施他有關鍵的這個科技的技術他算是戰略設施戰略的設施那公眾場合的電子布告板算不算?這就是看他的營運的單位那通常是算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7079.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7091.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
因為我在大會問過唐鳳大概裴洛西來的那一年我們整個一萬多家的CVS就是便利商店那個布告板啪就被變掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7093.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7116.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候他突然間給你丟一個假訊息會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷或者錯誤的這個訊息導致混亂那臺灣處處都便利商店所以當那裡出現深層造假或相關假說訊息是很危險的你們把它納入嘛就這個題目本席要問最後一題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7116.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7126.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那你們有公佈相關的guideline導引以及執行導引的規範包含獎勵或罰則或怎麼樣我告訴你民間應該這麼做因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施屬於這個CI設施那你必須要達到這個達到這個達到那個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7134.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7159.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那你規範你做不到的我怎麼輔導你你該做卻不做的我該怎麼去要求你我們有沒有這個事情報告委員這個有齁在因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全的這樣的領域的運用啦資通設備的一些運用所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關所以他有相關的義務跟事項我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7160.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7174.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
怎麼落實要求要求哪些單位該用機密就機密該可以公佈就公佈讓本席或本委員會看到我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊你怎麼要求啊你懂我意思嗎那個主任你先請回回到局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7175.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7189.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
520快到了齁那在520前夕包含各國情報單位都顯示說中國對台灣有相當多的做法我認為叫圖謀不軌就是不正當的做法滋擾的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7190.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7213.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
破壞的做法,侮辱性的做法,我們國安局有沒有掌握這樣的情質?有,我想在大選之後,我們看到的中共對台政策的樣態,主要還是合佔了兩手。那透過各種的釋放的利多的訊息,或是透過各種的灰色地帶的脅迫,來凸顯到他在台海議題上的主動權。你們掌握他的情質到目前為止? |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7214.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7233.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
最嚴重的他會怎麼做我們要注意到的是他們現在比較大的重點是放在例行性的聯合戰備警巡他的規模會不會擴大跟過去來比較有沒有一些新的動作他的聯合戰備警巡其實之前開始執行那他如果要有新的脅迫的話可能會在距離 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7239.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7263.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行那這已經有三次了那另外在聯合戰備警巡的期間他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們的相關的空中的武力滯空的時間那另外也開始動用其他的機艦包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作那這都是今年以來新的樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7263.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7289.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以沒有掌握以外我們現在因應的方式是什麼對我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態當然國防部這邊有他的一個相關的應處的一個既有的一個機制那特別也要注意的除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外灰色地帶的操作包括在今年的2月金門的翻船事件之後他們開始派出一些公務船有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動那這也是我們特別注意的不寧肯專程跑了中國中國也不鋪黃地毯 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7291.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7293.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
美國對中國的政策主要是在做管理管理雙方的紛爭然後在管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7317.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7319.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權領海上的糾紛事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7348.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7371.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那對於各種的可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除要繼續的來注意那我剛在進來會議室之前媒體朋友也在問這一點那除了520之前也要注意到520之後6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季那到時候也要注意到他們會用各種的藉口透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7371.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7372.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
現在五眼聯盟是日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7399.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7403.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我最後一分鐘請教你另外一個問題就國安局了解臺氣聯算是純民間組織還是中共的覆水組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7423.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7445.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這個陸委會有定義喔確實有注意到委員在提到這個部分的觀察也就是可能在兩岸交流過程當中中共除了釋放一些他的政策訊息或是要不要修改國內的國安法制以外他們也透過相關的為什麼這定義很重要你知道嗎我這一分鐘講完你們做適當的回應就好台七聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7447.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7466.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
他是受國台辦業務指導跟監督管理甚至於國台辦的相關人都會名列他的什麼職務什麼職務榮譽的職務那在陸委會有沒有把台七年定義為中共黨政軍相關的覆水組織這是第一件事要釐清第二個如果他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7467.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7479.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
他向台灣的國會議員要求去放鬆修改修掉國安相關法律那這裡面有沒有法律層次問題我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的交流對話我們都不反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7480.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7502.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
台灣人也愛和平啊,但和平不是把國家主權、主產賣掉的和平啊和平是一個對侵略者來講是一個假象對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相所以對話OK,平等互惠OK,不講話其實也OK但是如果在法律的程式那個界定的定義就很清楚喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7503.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7528.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
他是不是中共黨政軍的覆水組織有沒有接受他的授命或指導或要求去從事相關權威脅我們國家安全他大概有幾個層次如果他交流是要求你回家要拜拜孝順父母OK不危及國家安全沒問題所以這幾個要件國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7530.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7532.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
待會兒洪森漢委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7563.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7564.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
國土辦公室報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7575.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7596.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
委員長 主任好我們知道說這個無所不防就是全部設防因為當你把優先次序沒有排序好的話你等於是說把所有的資源分散在所有關鍵基礎建設上面那關鍵基礎建設裡面不管是水、電基本的網際網路的維護、通訊等等都算是關鍵的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7600.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7628.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那這些基礎建設裡面我們當然很重視它是我們重要的安全軀紐包含醫療等等那我想談一下2017年開始從台灣到馬祖的海底電纜至少已經發現過29次的這個斷纜的事故多半是被中國的船隻給破壞然後我們看到您這邊第5頁有提到說強化各項保安防護量的裡面有提到說當船隻進入警戒區予以告解那還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7630.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7641.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這些包含管制中心、門禁管制紀錄、海欄設定、自動警告系統等等我想請教一下在2023年2月份有兩條海欄遭到勾斷,有沒有事件? |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7644.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7659.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
有沒有自動警告系統有沒有發出作用報告委員自動警報系統當然是主要是針對善意的如果說是不小心的我方的漁船他不小心靠近了所以會提醒他會去離開所以自動警告系統是 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7660.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7684.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
是針對善意的傳指如果說今天他是惡意來做一個破壞他當然他就沒有辦法發生效應所以就要其他的防衛的手段所以這個是多元複式的一種防衛的手段了解這是多元複式的防衛手段但是在2023年2月份他沒有有效的防範到在包含2017年起的29起的這一個事件也沒有有效的做好防護的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7684.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7712.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那是不是可以請你檢討一下或者是請國土辦其他同仁來思考一下有沒有更好的防護做法因為你說它是多元的複數型的方式來做防護但是很顯然的它是沒有效能的那沒有效能的話我們要做好未來已經知道發生這樣的事情已經知道它無效那是不是可以請能夠做檢討是那想請教一下如果做檢討的話我看今年的預算大概是400多萬嗎400多萬的預算你們大概有國土辦有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7713.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7737.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
目前國土辦編制人員是16位16位但是剛才我們也提到包含能源供水、通訊傳播、金融、醫療都是重要的一些基礎建設的安全軀扭但是你們有16位這樣的人數夠嗎跟我們很包含因為國土辦主要是做院長級的幕僚機構幕僚機構幕僚單位事實上還是由行政院其他局各部會去做我現在請教的是說您自己覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7738.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7746.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這樣子16位夠不夠需不需要再去破邊或者是有什麼樣的方式因為我們剛才提到的就是電纜的問題已經出現多次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7747.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7776.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我現在不是要是在思考說有沒有更好的方式你有什麼樣的建議我跟委員報告因為我們現在是打團體戰就以例如剛剛講這個電纜通訊的韌性這個為例那在目前在行政院在統合這件事情的部分主辦的主責單位是數位部的韌性司啦韌性建設司那當然這個相關的網路的建設是由中華電信在執行所以相關的備援 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7777.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7800.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
目前一個是海瀾本身的備援目前有多條的海瀾如果一條斷了有切換到自動切換到第二條那我們也在增建新的更新的海瀾可以更增加海瀾之間的一個餘裕度另外一個就算海瀾斷了我們有其他第二種方式的通訊手段也就是用微波通訊那微波通訊的部分在去年年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7801.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7824.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
與馬祖之間的微波通訊的備援能量已經達到足額的能量了也就是說就算海嵐全部中斷光靠微波全部用微波也可以達到足額的一個通訊的一個韌性那當然還有其他的例如說我們在空中的通訊利用低軌衛星或相關的衛星通訊這也是一個全面思考的一個範疇那所以在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7825.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7839.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為這個面向很廣我們現在剛剛提的只是一個通訊韌性那如果電力韌性又會涉及到另外一個專業部門那或者是說水的韌性又有另外一個專業部門所以想請教主任一下那作為幕僚單位你們主要 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7840.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7857.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
負責的這個角色是什麼提供建議給這些其他部門還是統籌他們的演練這個都包含就是制度面的建立跟執行的一個監管跟一個協助啊像剛有提到說我們相關的一些演練我們也會預定說 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7858.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7859.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我們可以做要求嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7874.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7903.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
可以做要求嗎?當然當然那我的意思就是說我們剛才提到的就是包含這個海底電纜的部分那還有其他的部分我一直都我們對於高科技的這一種不管是你說那個cyber security網路安全的攻擊當然都是我們都很重視其實我覺得目前台灣遇到比較多次發生過成功危害到我國安全的包含在桃園機場那兩位工人的那些案件我相信你知道你應該知道這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7904.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7920.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我看起來都是比較低科技但是高效能低科技高效能意思是說他不需要用非常複雜的技能他不需要是駭客但是他可以成功癱瘓並且影響到人民對政府的信心那他不需要花出很多的代價我不需要去訓練一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7921.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7950.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
年新百萬千萬會有超級天才的駭客來去進入你的系統裡面我就可以派遣人力然後去直接把你的重要的能源設施也好航空設施也好給你破壞那這個部分就是需要演練你必須要假設你必須要有情境演練那情境演練的話那當然是希望說未來這個國土辦可以花更多的時間來督促水資源的部門電力的部門天然氣的部門特別是天然氣相關的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7951.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7974.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我可以知道說大概以我們的安全的系統因為其實台灣是一個治安非常好的地方所以我們對於這種國家級的危害基本上長時間沒有放在心上這不僅僅是軍方我想這是全台灣的一個普遍的一個心態那這個普遍現在是建立在我們安全的治安上面當然是可以理解那現在的威脅我想已經多次提到了2027年已經講很多次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7974.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7981.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以在這個部分我是希望從國土辦開始跟國安局也可以一起協力在每一個揭秘層級 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7982.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8010.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
或者是說在這個不管是在接觸這個基礎建設基礎設施的這些等級都必須要非常完整的門禁系統那完整的門禁系統不是說說就是形式上面看一下你的這個文件你可以進去你不可以進去變得要更加嚴謹的去執行那作為幕僚機構作為提供協助的這個機構來講你必須要確保這件事情真正在發生我現在不講高科技我就講低科技高風險的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8011.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8036.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們只需要兩個工人就可以癱瘓我們國家機場的電力我們只要一個孤狼式的作案就可以進入高鐵的系統我相信你還記得那位吳信律師當初要顛覆應該說某種程度是要造成重大的死傷那只要是高鐵如果真的是被破壞的話就可能真的發生事情所以我們不需要作文我們需要不斷的演練跟操練那我們請國安局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8044.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8064.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
局長,不好意思時間比較短,那我們就針對以色列跟烏克蘭的部分,給台灣的啟示這邊簡單的來詢問首先烏克蘭的這個部分,我想包含我們的準副總統當選的蕭美琴,還有一些其他的重要國的元首都一直在強調烏克蘭對台灣非常重要,那烏克蘭的勝利對台灣也很重要,你怎麼看這件事情? |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8065.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8083.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
對,我想就整個國際的一些衝突的情境的發生然後他當然可以在軍事上給我們很多的啟發新的作戰的方法有沒有我們可以學習的機會這大概是我們觀察的第一個重點第二個重點是對於戰爭的預防跟示警有沒有辦法在衝突發生之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8083.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8107.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
就透過國際的情報的合作能夠掌收到相關的動態趨勢以便來做必要的一個因應或是透過預防外交的方式來降低衝突發生的可能性我想這兩個層面的意義對我們國安局來講都非常的重要謝謝局長局長那我能這你剛剛講的非常好那我想請教那烏克蘭勝利是不是有辦法嚇阻另外一個大國對台灣的這個襲擊的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8108.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8130.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
當然,我想烏克蘭的一個戰事的發生那很多國家都在觀察它的一個意涵這包括攻擊方跟防守方那假如說這一次的惡霧戰爭烏克蘭沒有辦法來讓俄國增加它侵略的成本的話很有可能其他也有侵略意圖的國家也會來抄襲這樣的一個侵犯的一個動作跟行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8131.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8157.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那美國的國務卿最近接受BBC的專訪還有多家外媒的專訪都不斷的提到中國是把一些重要的軍事零組件他沒有直接把軍火給這個俄羅斯但是他把重要的零組件不斷的提供給俄羅斯讓俄羅斯持續能夠來去製造他們的裝甲戰爭機器等等那這樣子的問題不斷的在出現如果我們要有效嚇阻另外一個國家對台灣侵襲的野心我就講中共那我們應該怎麼樣協助烏克蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8159.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8174.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那我們不能夠也不應該直接軍事援助這股客覽但是同時我們遇到中國是直接把一些重要的零件零組件讓他們可以大量的在快速的經過一年多的時間裡面本來應該已經沒有軍事資源能夠持續戰爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8175.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8196.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
但是卻因為中國的原因能夠提供他們重要的民主圈臺灣可以扮演什麼角色?臺灣該不該扮演角色?我想就怎麼樣來增加侵略者戰爭的成本應該是國際民主社群大家一起來努力的來讓俄國這次侵略行動可以遭受到必要的一個損失而嚇阻未來有類似的一個侵略的一個戰爭的行為那就臺灣來講國際社會因為正在對 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8198.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8203.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我必須要強調這個制裁的部分還有我國其實有很多不肖的產業不肖的企業抱歉我講錯了不肖的企業包含提供一些重要的零組件給北韓 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8221.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8244.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
以及俄羅斯這些都必須要把這些情報有效的遏止住我們不可以花錢自己把自己送上這一個腳架這是不可以做的事情那所以這些情報必須要密切的和我國友善的盟邦來分享這些資訊來確保這樣的事情不會再發生不要說美國在制裁然後我們自己的企業還在做這些事情這是不行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8245.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8248.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
再補一句就是說我們必須從烏克蘭裏面我當然知道說大家說這是其他人的戰爭或者說有人說這個不是只有價值我還是要強調這個是對台灣來講最好的方式不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8262.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8262.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
一句話說明就是說這個部份經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8289.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8289.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8316.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8339.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
接下來請洪森翰委員上台質詢請國安局蔡局長跟國土辦林主任請蔡局長林主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8344.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8345.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
馬祖海嵐問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8360.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8384.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個2023年的2月的時候這個護衛備援的兩條馬祖的海欄在很短的時間內就遭到中國漁船的破壞那所以馬祖對外的通訊都中斷所以剛才有剛才那個畫面所有人都擠到南竿的中華電信前面那好好逮捕希望能夠用到網路對不起我換一個喂這樣可以嗎可以聽得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8386.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8404.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
市長,你覺得這是意外事件還是非意外事件?對,這個案例我們一直有在觀察。過去幾年大概臺馬海嵐的斷線已經斷了二十幾次了,那非常不尋常。但是我們在進行各種的判斷不能夠依照我們自己主觀的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8409.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8423.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
海嵐斷裂一般有判斷到有中國的漁船在周邊的水域作業這是第一個部分第二個他的作業的航機我們會分析他的作業航機是正常的漁船作業航機還是他刻意的只是要去破壞海嵐的航機 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8425.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8453.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們看到這個華府的智庫那其實是認為這只是並不是巧合甚至他是採取灰色地帶侵略的手段來切斷對台的網絡 局長同意嗎不能排除這樣的可能性那特別在較兩岸比較緊張的過程當中用這種切斷台灣對外海欄的方式來進行灰色地帶的操作可能性是存在的我們看到馬祖海欄有幾個特殊的地方第一個是他相對於國際上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8454.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8479.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這國際的海欄在巴士海峽它的深度其實是2000到5000馬祖海欄大概只有30公尺到100公尺那它的位置當然也是現在在中國灰色地帶侵略的第一線那人為變因確實我們現在看到這是我們最憂心的地方中國的民用的船隻在這個灰色地帶來進犯那包括是查扣的抽砂船從2019年95艘開始到2020年2021年都超過300艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8484.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8486.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
看起來數字是非常非常高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8487.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8515.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那我們這段時間當然我知道我們一直以來行政部門會用說我們有兩個法一個是電信管理法一個是關鍵基礎設施來保護我們這相關的海港措施那我去年其實也對陳建仁院長其實提出了質詢所以後來電信管理法有修了我們把原本在舊的時候他只有寫到登陸站那只有這個國際的登陸站能夠被認定變成新的法變成是不分國內外的登陸站跟纜線其實都有修訂這是我們做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8515.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8537.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
但我認為就電信法的部分確實有補上了一些但我們接下來看的事情是關於CIA的部分這個局長這是我們CIA的定義這個CIA的定義裡面其實寫得很清楚因人為破壞或自然災害受損進而影響政府或社會功能運作及造成環境改變或其他阻使國家安全或利益遭受損害之餘者 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8539.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8556.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以局長你覺得馬祖海嵐算不算CIA當然當然是重要的一個CIA設施之一是嗎因為就海嵐來講我們現在國際海嵐大概有14條國內外離島的海嵐加起來有10條那這涉及到我們對外的一個聯邦那數位部怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8559.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8575.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
蘇衛部的歸納有沒有把海蘭……以蘇衛部我剛同仁跟我提醒的是蘇衛部主要是以國際海蘭為主要的關切的重點局長就我理解蘇衛部並不贊成把馬祖海蘭放入CI裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8581.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8596.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
對,我剛已經提過了,就國家安全的角度來講,我們認為國際的海嵐跟國內相關外離島的海嵐都非常的重要。那數位部這樣認定,請問國安局或國土辦,一樣國土辦,你們對數位部這樣子認定的方法,這樣限塑的方法,你們的態度是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8599.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8620.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
委員好,那個當然這個數位部是他負責相關數位海欄的這樣的一個主責單位,我們會尊重他但是我要跟委員報告,就是委員其實在這一,剛剛有提到修法的部分修法的部分有把上岸的這個海欄...國土辦的態度是尊重數位部嗎?按照剛剛蔡局長的講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8622.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8640.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
剛剛他是覺得馬祖海欄當然應該列入到CIA裡面喔是 我跟委員報告因為我說尊重但是因為現在實體上已經把他納進去了為什麼實體上的意思是什麼就是剛剛您有提到那個修法的部分已經把進到海欄站的纜線也納入防護的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8641.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8667.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
是,但是沒有列入到CIA裡面是,確實他們有單獨列上去列入CIA裡面的話,他其實必須要,我們要去防護他各種的義務其實是比剛剛講的更多的嘛這個林主任,這應該不用我們多說嘛是,所以跟委員報告,像我們以海嵐戰的演習為例他的範圍就會涵蓋到這個國內的海嵐所以相對應的要求林主任,我們都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8667.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8694.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我現在調了相關的演習的記錄上一次演習是在2021年而且是桌上的演習請問我們在CIA的演習是桌上演習嗎他可以透過桌推兵推跟使兵但是我想這部分我們會再進一步跟他做上一次的演習是2021年我們光看2022年2023年就發生了這麼多在馬祖海嵐被受到侵害的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8695.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8718.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海蘭來做演習嗎?照理來說如果被列入C.I的話應該是每年都要演習每年都要巡檢甚至國土辦可以有事前的納管事後巡檢的這樣的權責但到底為什麼我們不願意把他列入C.I?我跟委員報告我們今年的巡檢的標的有含 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8719.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8730.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
其實您剛提到的那個機房我們會去做巡檢我現在講的是馬祖海嵐啊因為它的上岸點的一個點在那個地方是 但是那只是上岸點啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8731.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8748.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
阿至於相關的一些防護的作為我們也有多做一些掌握所以剛剛跟委員主任我到目前為止還聽不出明明蔡局長也覺得他應該列入CIA你覺得他不該列入CIA嗎用你的專業判斷用你的專業判斷你覺得馬祖海蘭該不該列入CIA用你的專業判斷跟他們做一個討論跟確認那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8759.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8769.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
不管是局長或者是主任我必須說我非常非常疑惑我當然也找過數位部來討論過幾次但我不懂為什麼不願意把馬祖海蘭列入CI |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8771.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8797.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
但他現在說我們用微波等等的但我們都很清楚知道其實微波沒有辦法完全替代掉實質的海欄光纖海欄的功能尤其他的頻寬是非常非常不足的甚至當如果有特定的我們在外在的威脅來的時候我們都知道可能是軍用政府用為先對不對即便是微波我們現在查到的數據這個微波他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8800.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8811.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
它是大概是16Gbps微波的部分我們現在到2023年年底是擴充到10.6Gbps可是我們的海欄其實是有100T |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8817.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8844.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們確定威脅的頻寬可以讓如果我們真正發生什麼被封鎖被包圍出現混亂的時候除了政府用跟軍用夠以外民用也夠嗎我們確定嗎這件事情林主任或者是局長我們確定嗎我跟委員報告10GB確定夠嗎會不會民用是不夠的會不會有很多在民間的訊息產生的混亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8845.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8873.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
會不會有這些問題我跟委員報告在目前以以往的使用情形來看是可以到足額的覆蓋但是軍用跟民用是優先的那民用夠嗎就是整體的計算但是我們還是要持續的備援再備援那另外剛有提到就台馬海欄的部分是不是要納進去CI這一塊我會再跟數位部做一個溝通跟確認我知道數位部一直抗拒這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8874.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8894.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
但到現在為止我得不到一個明確合理的理由為什麼馬祖海蘭可以不列入CIA如果你們知道也請告訴我我們可以理性討論但到目前為止我得不到一個合理的回答明明是一個會讓已經這麼常被破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8895.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8917.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
而且大家也都知道它的風險也都知道它會帶來的混亂我們在CIA的定義上面也都感覺得到它就是符合但對不起我們這個主管機關不認就是不認也因為它的不認所以我們相關的管理、巡檢包括演練的密度都不如我們真正列入的CIA |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8919.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8938.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
為什麼?委員我溝通了解結果一定要跟委員報告這個局長跟國防我希望吼第一個我們應該要盡力尤其是像馬祖海蘭這樣這樣子的我認為他就是關鍵基礎設施就是CI了他民運帶來的風險就是很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8939.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8961.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這個通訊的設施我們也知道通訊其實是應該列入到CI裡面大的範疇裡面是有的但今天因為數位部他有一個他的偏執我不知道為什麼但他就是不願意我覺得這讓我們在相關的防護的密度都受到很大的影響這是事實證明的我拿出數據了上一次的演練是2021年 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8964.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8984.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
是2021��2021年而且還是桌上的推演我們希望這個相關的演練都要跟地方政府合作有跟地方政府合作嗎甚至我們還都要求這些相關的演練還要及時的向民眾發出告警啊我們這種桌上的演練的方式可以符合我們在演練上面的規範嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8986.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8987.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
最後一張我要說剛剛最後一張我們要要求國土辦跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9009.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9009.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我們來反應,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9042.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9043.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
好我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9395.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9400.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我們現在繼續開會接下來請王洪威委員上臺質詢好謝謝主席我請我們的蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9422.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9438.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
今天我們所討論議題其實涵蓋範圍非常大但是我們非常關心的就是在一些國外的暗網裡面有一些我們包含我們國防外交的一些機敏資料在國外的暗網裡面公然出售 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9439.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9454.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
光是今年就兩起引起大家非常關注的議題一個是在今年的二月期間傳出我們的海軍海巡外交部的一些採購合約的資料外泄 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9459.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9480.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那個時候這個是由中華電信的資料外洩,因為這些資料包含海軍司令部租用的一些衛星轉換器還有外交部的一些資訊合作案,對外資訊合作案,還有中華電信幫海巡署去安裝衛星通訊等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9481.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9509.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那因為這個時間已經有一段時間了我想請問一下這個說當時說要去調查調查的結果如何因為委員提到的有兩個案子那一個部分是有沒有可能案往上有涉及到公部門相關的文件的外洩是不是有洩那二來是洩的文件有沒有經過篡改那這部分相關的部會已經有在做內部的行政調查這大概第一點這兩個案子有沒有外洩的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9510.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9532.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我沒有尊重行政部門的調查的結果因為他們進行的是他們部內的行政調查到目前為止都沒有任何的訊息嗎因為我們過去很多的外泄包含內政部的互證資料外泄每一次都是說調查中調查中第一個連有沒有外泄都沒有去證實如果你沒有證實你如何去防堵 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9533.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9535.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
同意,非常同意,因為個案的部分我們沒有涉入他們的行政調查,所以這部分我們尊重,但是... |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9552.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9580.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
對就國安的角度我正要跟委員解釋就國安的角度來講我們會去稍微釐清一下有可能有可能的問題會發生在哪裡第一個比如說會不會部會之間的電子公文的交換系統有沒有問題那第二個就算電子交換系統沒有出現問題會不會有人為因為在處理檔案過程當中有複製然後複製過程當中有違反相關的資安規定這部分也要注意所以就國安的角度我們認為會有一些漏洞也跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9580.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9605.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我在上禮拜也跟陳建元院長有提到這件事那他在我禮拜三早上跟他講之後他禮拜三下午馬上就召集會議來處理我們國安局所反映的問題所以這部分是有一些密切的聯繫跟意思剛才講就是兩種可能我覺得第二種可能就非常嚴重囉第一個是說你們在交換的過程裡面有沒有外洩第二個是變成可能有人去複製這些檔案去外洩去賣給國外的案網 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9607.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9620.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
因為我覺得我們發生這麼多這樣一些機敏的資料外泄但是最後都不了了之然後我們接下來就看到一而再再而三的發生未來有可能防堵嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9621.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9644.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
對,這是我跟委員說明的一個部分是針對個案要來釐清每一個公文裡面到底有沒有被外洩或偽造的可能性第二個我剛剛跟委員提醒的是我們就國安局的角度來講我們是從制度面來檢視過程當中可能有的漏洞然後來提供給行政部門做快速的處理我認為我們應該要對外界要有一個交代是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9645.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9671.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
有或沒有然後有沒有進行懲處而不是每一次都用這個是任職作戰然後就輕輕待過另外一個就是說其實我們在國安的問題裡面最近我們特別談到我們的電價問題包含我們的能源的問題那麼最近其實頻頻發生區域性的大停電其實這也是國安危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9672.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9686.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
另外我想請教一下,最近台中火力八電廠現在已經有10部燃煤機組,現在要再準備興建2部燃氣機組,而且要規劃有13座天然氣儲存槽 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9692.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9709.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我想請問局長．如果當我們的發電．這個最重要的能源基礎設施．如此高度的集中在某一個發電廠．然後我們的天然氣的除潮．也高度的集中在某一個發電廠．請問這個合適嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9713.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9735.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
對我想就能源安全的部署來講確實應該要盡量的多元化多元的來源的管道會讓我們的能源安全韌性更高那對於委員在營務上有提到包括天然氣除潮各方面的建制的狀況我們認為這非常的重要在提升能源安全跟韌性的過程當中所以不應該過度集中 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9735.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9755.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
因為也許地方市長他所關心的是不要造成空污可是從拉高到一個國安的層級如果我們未來的發電用非發電80%火力發電其實這都已經過度集中在某一個能源的供應然後又過度集中在某一個發電廠這個從國安問題其實是有問題的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9759.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9760.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
接下來請洪孟楷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9799.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9802.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
賴清德總統當選人說在記者會的時候宣布喊錯你的名字不止一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9822.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9843.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
你們是有讀不熟口誤吧口誤口誤兩三次三四次但私下沒有發生過這種狀況私下沒有發生這種狀況那這樣子本席才會覺得好奇跟擔心那會不會有國安危機我們的總統當選人居然在那麼公開的場合然後一而再再看著你想著別人局長我覺得這滿嚴肅的 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9850.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9877.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
總統身為中華民國的國會一份子我們也認為是說我們的元首的身體健康以及相關的一個狀態都要是最好的狀態才能夠代表我們國家但是他公開的場合講錯你的名字那你又講說私下他沒有發生過這樣的狀況那你們之前有沒有一起開過會有很常開會很常開會所以他沒有被排除在蔡英文總統的國安核心之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9878.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9895.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我們一直都很常開會一直都很常開會一直都很常開會但是他居然跟你感覺沒有很熟那真的做好了交接準備了嗎沒有,因為私底下沒有發生過這個狀況,從來沒有所以你也沒有再去請教賴清德總統為什麼他會唸錯你名字應該口誤,對 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9899.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9927.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
口誤本席希望是口誤啦本席也不希望我們的總統準總統有任何的身體健康的一個狀態但如果說真的有的話也應該要去做一些了解好不好那再來我想今天最重要的還是說關鍵基礎設施存在威脅本席也看了你這邊報告特別講是說天然災害人為危害跟資安攻擊三大類型三大類型並且有20處選定要做安全防護的演習但我先請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9928.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9950.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我們到目前為止本席也認為國安很重要本席也認為是說我們應該要加強防範但是我們最基本的或最基礎的國家級的警報到目前只沒有標準局長有沒有注意到這個問題標準的部分應該還是有一個作業標準跟程序去年年底去年選前突然間發一個國家級的警報說有飛彈飛越台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9956.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9977.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
就後來發覺不是飛彈是衛星那個時候全部人都接收到國家級警報今年4月3號花蓮大地震很多的鄉親都講是說我沒有收到警報到4月的時候那麼多的餘震有人有收到有人沒收到那這樣子算不算國家級警報沒有標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9977.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10006.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
到底是什麼時候要發這個警報什麼時候不用發這個警報那衛星飛過突然間煞有其事說飛彈飛過那我想請教從去年到現在我們又有多少衛星飛過台灣上空有沒有掌握有都有從那一次之後國防部開始在每一次中共發射衛星火箭之前就做事先的告警都有事先告警但都沒有再發過國家級警報啦所以這是不是又是標準不一 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10008.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10020.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
局長你這樣就是證實了我們標準確實沒有一定嗎所以在選前的時候我就可以故意誘導飛彈飛過讓大家恐慌抗中保台又來了那完了之後又不用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10022.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10048.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個治安危機到底是我們政府自己製造的還是外部的攻擊就當時的狀況來講我們對於中共所發射的火箭或相關的飛彈我們都能夠掌握也會事先預判它的彈道中共那時候發的是火箭跟飛彈嗎講清楚喔我要講不管是火箭或飛彈我們都能夠掌握那以當時來講中共發生的那一次的國家級警報發的是什麼它當時是衛星火箭那誰誰把它發錯但 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10051.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10060.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這後來有做一些內部的檢討,因為他自私的內建的資訊的英文就給他寫成是MISO,所以造成外界有這樣的誤解,後來已經修訂了。我們的英文還可以講錯。這已經修訂了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10063.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10087.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以過去這幾年國防部真的蔡英文主政下都是蔡英文我跟委員說明一下剛剛的案例他因為是之前就有預判他的衛星火箭發射的路徑但是因為路徑偏移了所以才造成國防部認為應該要發射警報我覺得重點在於是你要強化國家基礎建設本席沒有意見本席也認為應該要強化但是如果說連國家級的警報都沒有一個標準的話我覺得這也是國安危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10088.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10105.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
某種程度上因為會在關鍵時刻誤導或者是讓人民造成不必要的恐慌該警報的時候要警報但不該警報的時候出現警報這也是國安違戒一環局長你認同嗎沒有我想警報的發布它一定有它一定的標準的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10105.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10133.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
但是在作業的細部的一些規範裡面在經過不斷地在修正是各機關各行其事啊那國安局不應該來去做了解嗎或是說你會不會認為說這樣子如果說國家急警報在不適當的場合出現或不適當的場合來營造的話也會造成民心的紛擾對這個過程要透過不斷的一個個案來累積經驗來做必要修正委員剛剛講到地震的部分也是不斷地在修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10134.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10147.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
來 局長那我最後要請教一下現在我看到內政部這兩天有一個消息是我們強化寶二的一個整備就是說寶二現在要做整備然後要去很多的基礎設施這邊來去做一個維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10149.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10159.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
保安局有掌握這個訊息嗎?保安局有給建議嗎?保二的功能本來就是在保護國家的關鍵基礎設施這兩天內政部又說加強保二的一個人員編制所以說有在擴大成軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10168.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10190.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這部分我們尊重內政部相關的一個規劃因為他還在可能還在做計畫目前還沒有目前還沒有因為本席這兩天接收到我們的基層員警的投訴保二擴大成軍要維護我們國家基礎設施結果反而造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10192.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10215.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
人員一時沒有那麼多所以就從各警察單位機構調人過去現在變成是為了要保二擴大成軍要讓內政部要讓蔡英文政府在520卸任之前可以交代所以把我們很多機關的員警員額全部都調過去造成現在很多機關的員警員額是嚴重不足的是沒有補齊的是沒有補滿的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10216.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10233.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那這樣會不會某種程度上也發生我們其他機關的員額不夠我就直接講啦交通建設相關的警務機關他的員額就嚴重不足因為有很多的員額是被調去支援寶二 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10235.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10235.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
提供專業意見為國家服務謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10266.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10269.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
國安局局長蔡明彥、蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10289.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10317.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
好 謝謝主席 黃委員早局長早今天我們討論我們的關鍵基礎設施我相信對台灣整體國防這是一個非常重要的問題但關鍵的問題是我們目前對於關鍵基礎設施我們防護的範圍到底是足夠還是不足夠為什麼我會提這樣子的一個問題2023年我們強化關鍵基礎設施的時候修了22部法律三度通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10318.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10335.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我相信大家都認為這是重要的事情但問題是在這次修法以後一個非常關鍵的問題是說我們真的把所有的關鍵基礎設施都納入了嗎我為什麼會提出這樣的問題來請教一下局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10336.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10356.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們透過22部法律這種列舉式的方式去處理關鍵基礎設施我負責任的把每一部法律列了哪些關鍵基礎設施我全部都盤點出來了那盤點完了以後我就開始納悶了我們的軍機場算不算是重要的關鍵基礎設施請局長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10361.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10374.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那就那個關鍵基礎設施相關的分類這是國土辦的業務我們是情報機關我們提供的是關鍵基礎設施來請國土辦委員好 國土辦您主任軍機場是不是關鍵基礎設施我們軍機場的部分是有國防部這邊有相關的一些防衛的作為對不起你沒有回答我的問題軍機場是不是關鍵基礎設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10387.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10400.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
在目前我們這邊並不是我們納管的那問題就來了如果軍機場這麼重要的地方我們沒有把它納入關鍵基礎設施然後我們今天在討論關鍵基礎設施對我國防的重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10406.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10428.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
你不會覺得很荒謬嗎?我跟委員報告因為我們國防的部份軍機黨的設施的部份是由國防部那邊在整體在盤點處理是!那國防部依照什麼盤點處理?這當然國防法的相關規定不是國防法的相關規定啊!局長您知道嗎?國防部的部份我想我們尊重他們的專業的評估還有法理的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10430.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10455.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
對不起喔,我有一點驚訝今天我們在討論關鍵基礎設施的時候來的國安局的局長跟國土辦辦公室的主任對這麼重要的問題會這麼不熟啊我真的蠻驚訝的目前就軍機場的部分是在哪一個法律裡面來去歸管的,您知道嗎?您知道嗎?來請國土辦這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10461.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10472.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
在相關的法令裡面有包含國安法、要塞堡壘法要塞堡壘地帶法裡面的規範依照要塞堡壘地帶法裡面的規範以龍潭軍用機場為例有公告嗎這個是很重要的關鍵基礎設施啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10484.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10512.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
報告委員針對這個國防的相關的有一些他周圍有一些限制或管理的規定他是有一個國防依照剛剛講的要塞堡壘法去做一個公告你說的沒有錯嘛我齁幫你把話講完整一點如果是國防部的話他們會說這個應該是歸在要塞堡壘地帶法裡面規範那下一個問題來了依照要塞堡壘地帶法裡面規範的話要公告目前所公告的22個地方有包括軍機場嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10514.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10527.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
沒有包括軍機場沒有包括軍機場所以現在下一個關鍵的問題就來了我們在上一次修法的時候針對這麼重要的軍機場我們既沒有把它納入關鍵基礎設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10530.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10555.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
在要塞堡壘地帶法裡面也沒有公告是屬於他們要防護的要塞堡壘那請問針對軍機場這麼重要的關鍵基礎設施目前我們所採取的防護沒有把它納入關鍵基礎設施會產生什麼問題我直接把它點名啦這個是包括了台大法學院包括了中研院一群學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10556.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10585.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
對於我們的國安體系所提出的事情他們在盤點上一屆國會修關鍵基礎設施的時候重大疏漏的時候一群由臺大法學院跟中研院法學院的學者他們聯名寫了一個聲明盤點上一屆國會修法以後出現重大的漏洞那些重大的漏洞包括我剛剛所點出來的第一個問題來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10586.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10613.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
中國的富豪買美國空軍基地旁邊的土地結果被駁回引發相當大的爭議為什麼因為這個美國空軍基地旁邊的土地他們把它納入什麼關鍵基礎設施的範圍之內局長贊不贊成對有他的相關的安全考量的依據可以理解可以理解嗎對台灣有相同的作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10615.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10634.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這就是我的問題台灣有相同的作為嗎?捍衛國家安全不是喊口號是在具體的法律設計跟我們的行政作為上嘛美國有這樣的規範那我就簡單的請教阿您贊不贊成這樣的規範如果您贊成的話我下一個問題台灣有這樣的規範嗎?如果台灣沒有這樣的規範台灣應不應該有這樣的規範來請教局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10641.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10662.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
對,我們可以來討論可以來討論嗎討論了8年啦討論了8年啦你們上次盤點關鍵基礎設施的時候學者很認真啦為了台灣的國家安全人家把問題都盤點出來了隔了一年你今天在外交國防委員會跟大家講說可以來討論好,需要討論多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10664.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10683.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
有在規劃,我們請那個國土辦公室大家需要規劃多久?報告委員,這個釐清過在目前兩岸人民關係條例裡面有相關的規定齁在授權的執法裡面,到地區人民來台投資或取得不動產沒有沒有,你先停一下這個已經不是中國人買不買的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10684.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10704.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
是其他的人買可能都有這個問題啊北韓的人買你覺得就OK嗎蘇俄的人買你覺得就OK嗎我現在在跟你講規範的事情啊當局長說要檢討我也給你時間檢討我最後一個問題不要耽誤其他委員的時間嘛要討論多久就這麼簡單的問題要討論多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10707.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10722.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
跟委員報告因為現在有相關的法令我可不可以做個說明一個是在土地法裡面針對外國人來購買的一些限制的法令的規定裡面就包含有要塞堡壘法地帶所劃定的所以我就問你嘛要塞堡壘法有說要軍機廠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10725.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10753.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我剛已經告訴你了嘛要塞堡壘法有公告軍機場嗎你還在講公話我所有的法規都幫你整理完耶我很訝異耶竟然比我還不熟阿報告委員在許可辦法裡面的有一款是各目的社會主管機關來做一個會商吼然後呢會商完了嗎公告了嗎現在各個如果外國人要來取得國內的土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10753.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10778.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
都會經由內政部相關會商程序來辦理這個顯然沒有回答到委員的問題因為剛剛提到的是這個軍機場的部分那國外其實有一些包括美國都有相關的那個規範其實可以提供參考會後跟委員還有在委員會也提供相關的說明報告好不好好謝謝主席的才事謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10783.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10786.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府機關首長官員,會場工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請國安局蔡局長和國土辦林主任。 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10810.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10836.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
兩位好我想我不會跟前面的委員一直把國防設施跟關鍵基礎設施混為一談但是我認為在顯而易見的國防設施之外或者軍事設施之外或要塞堡壘地帶之外有很多是我們的基礎設施但它的關鍵隱而不查希望你們要注意首先這是一個在上個月前有一個港口起重機安裝可疑通訊裝備是美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10837.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10860.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
港口有橋式起重機在吊貨櫃的,八成是中國製的,它在部分安裝了可疑的通訊設備。結果,美方透過港口經濟司法部門了解來自中國的振華重工,多次要求遠端存取他們位在美國的起重機,以及其他海式基礎設施。請問,局長你有看到這樣的一個報導嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10861.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10876.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
有,事實上這個不只是在委員現在所提到報導是今年3月份,去年就發生了,然後當時已經請港港局做一個全面的徹查,已經全面徹查過所以你們認為台灣的港口集中機有沒有同樣的可能的疑慮,國安會這樣的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10877.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10899.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
對,在我們通報航港局之後,航港局做了全面的徹查,徹查完之後是沒有,因為我們國內的港口並沒有使用遠端遙控的相關中國的基礎。這個我請你再想想看,因為你所謂的相關主管包括速發部,對不對,包括經濟部、商業局,來我們告訴你,這裡的錢在哪裡?固定之下的架空移動起動機俗稱的吊貨櫃的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10900.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10923.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
來自中國、日本跟荷蘭的在過去幾年大幅的增加其中以中國的成長最多有沒有看到有有這些都分布在台灣的重要港部啊但我們剛剛在講的重點是美方他發現比較有資安疑慮的是那些起重機他具有遠端遙控我了解但是你本身你們有人你們是委請其他部門嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10924.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10950.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我這邊有資訊有告訴我們是誰會知道我再慢慢講移動式的起重機這些我們看到來自德國、日本、中國過去以德國為大宗但是這些國家逐年在遞減包括日本在遞減中國卻大幅的成長你覺得為什麼因為中國是世界工廠他們大量的生產這些製造機具包括工具、母機但是為什麼今天本席會提出這個問題來因為往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10953.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10979.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
因為中國製的起重機具他用的是付錢就能取得的認證我們都要求他認證你請那些機關去幫你看他也是看認證他取得的第三方認證資料通常在美國、日本、歐盟跟韓國他都不採納那你知道這些中國製的起重機來到我們台灣他的出示的認證是哪一個國家出具的嗎有沒有去查過 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10981.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11008.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
這些認證在這四個國家是不採納的但是在台灣才不採納是不是請局長去了解一下好再接下來我再告訴你這個中國的製的起重機具的製造商本身就是中國人大的代表啊進口商知道他進口的是來自於中國的進口商當然知道嘛他去跟他進嘛但是進到台灣來之後購買的廠商施工的單位知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11010.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11021.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
軍方的設備或港部的設備他開了標他知道他們買到的進口商進來的東西是中國製的嗎?你認為他知不知道? |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11026.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11049.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
這個部分我們剛剛同學在跟我講比較詳細的資訊也就是說在清查過程當中一些相關廠商的涉入的狀況也都有進行一些了解那我先問你我們的過去曾經發生過學校的遊覽巴士在學生校外教學的出了狀況或者是旅遊巴士交通不要求通通要標示在車體上要標示我請問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11050.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11073.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
你自我贊成相關機關在這些進口產品的管制上要合格上標明基礎的產地,你贊不贊成?我們會看主管機關,這是政府部門大家的分工,要看主管部門他們的評估是什麼那你覺得呢?你個人認為這樣標示出來有沒有幫助?這樣的建議的背後的考量可以理解包括要中英文的字體標示出來對不對?好,後續還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11076.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11091.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
中國式的起重機可不可以遠端的監控跟操作其實有時候連進口商都不太清楚甚至連操作的起重機手他也不太了解為什麼因為很多的機能啊他沒有被開啟但是他的後門可以遠端開啟啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11092.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11106.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我進來的設備不需要這個功能為什麼跟你講這個事情呢因為在我們的工廠裡面有些機具當發生公安事件的時候要立刻停機操作人被捲進去了遠端馬上一個shut down就停了 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11107.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11124.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
對 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11128.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11141.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所以你們不要說你們徹查過了只要是這些機具它的本身具有一定的公共安全的工作安全的危害性通常會要加入一些防呆 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11142.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11163.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那終止的措施防止造成傷害這些都具備有遠端控制的功能所以為了保障資訊安全國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作,你支持嗎?對,我們再請行政院相關的單位來針對這個部分再做...我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情齁主席也知道齁全民防衛動員防動法第16條動員階段可以增掉民間的各種物資設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11168.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11173.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
你知道嗎?我們有哪些的基礎設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的?起重機要不要?板車要不要? |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11177.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11199.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
外首要不要這些機具很多都不是台灣生產的喔所以在暫時徵用的中國製的機具或設備是否可能有國家安全的疑慮舉例來講我告訴你對於反空降的作為所有的單臂式的高級的起重機他在軍方徵用的時候會在反空降的地點他把他升起來防止敵軍空降散兵有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11200.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11227.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
有這樣的作用嘛對不對我們會把這些大型的起重機迅速集中作為立即的反空降的一個作為如果這些機具不舉呢遠端控制不舉呢發動不了呢有沒有這個安全疑慮同不同意同意啊同意委員會推論所以我們要求兩個事情主席站起來了請研議對國營單位、公共工程及經濟單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作以確保資訊安全的可行應一個月提出文明報告可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11229.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11254.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這應該是國土辦的事情,對不起,應該問主任這是你們國土辦的事情我們會來召集各單位來瞭解好,那也請嚴應暫時正用機具的設備規範排除所有中國製的機具,包括晶片保障國家安全,可不可以請你們瞭解現在的設備很多這種晶片,晶片都有傳輸能力進一步的去瞭解,可以嗎我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解好,謝謝,謝謝兩位,謝謝主席好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11260.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11269.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
謝謝 接下來請楊瓊瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊瑩發言想邀請局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 楊委員早局長首先給你恭喜這個留任那520過後我們國安局的政策有什麼改變嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11290.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11311.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
對,我們的國家安全政策本來就有它的一貫性那怎麼樣來確保臺海地區的和平穩定一直是我們最重要的戰略目標我們會持續往這個目標來努力持續往這個目標,所以方向還是沒變嘛還是一樣以保護國家安全為基礎對,維持臺海穩定那在你的報告書當中我們看到也就是國土辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11312.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11313.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
從風險的辨識跟主要的威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11332.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11358.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
還有脆弱性的分析這一些面向專業的來提供給國土辦那顯示了一個問題也就是說情資的取得是相當重要的一個工作所以本席要請教局長在國際情報的合作上面你目前跟這個各國合作的管道是否通暢是否足以保障我國的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11358.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11358.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以這個通道 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11377.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11395.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
是要暢通的這是非常重要的關鍵因為很多的國家或許他會用知通工具來攻擊我們的關鍵基礎設施所以這一環是目前世界各國都非常關注的那我方怎麼應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11395.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11425.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
有,就關鍵基礎設施來講因為我們有分為八大類的關鍵基礎設施包括能源、水資源等等交通還有政府部門等等那在資通的部分我們因為又有貴院通過的資通安全管理法所以由數位部來做橫向的我剛跟各位說明的是八大類它是直向的那各類都有主要的政府來進行業務的督導但是橫向的部分資安的部分由數位部來進行相關的資安基礎設施的共同的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11426.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11448.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
所以因此也看到了這個問題當然安全很重要所以你報告當中你也說因為發生了興達電廠這個停計的事件所以你們導入了雙備援對備援在備援那在這樣的情況之下你今年預估去年預估是選擇了幾處你今年是選擇40處 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11454.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11479.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
對,就是由行政院層級的、院級的一個巡檢的單位那這個規模的層級,今年有選了40個重點的目標你選了40個嘛,那所以呢對,這是行政院的選擇你這個巡檢了之後呢,那你要怎麼樣應對這個改進的部分我想這個都必須要做配好而且本席也希望,如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11480.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11486.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
再討論一個問題美國國土安全部宣布研發人工智慧安全與保障成立顧問委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11502.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11503.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
委員會將運輸、管線、電網營運商、網路、 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11524.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11526.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
委員會要做什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11526.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11538.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
協助確保AI科技的安全開展,以及設法因應科技能源、公共事業、交通、國防、資訊、科技、食品、 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11539.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11545.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
所以他們換句話說等於是政府部門、產業部門實際上已經串聯起來所以AI的技術可以成為國家關鍵基礎設施的韌性帶來有很多的好處 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11560.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11578.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
但是它也產生了這些隱憂因為剛剛風險就我們的風險隱憂所以在這樣的情況之下你如何應對這個是大家非常緊張比如說我們燃氣運輸部給你進來我們的安全存糧只有多少十天 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11578.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11599.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那我們怎麼辦所以我們的應對要怎麼應對請做說明對我覺得委員這問題真的非常重要但這問題可能不能單單只是從國家關鍵基礎設施的防護來看而是國家對於新興的科技AI在應用上它所帶來的功能跟風險可能要有些法制面的規範當然所以就你國安局因為人家美國都已經開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11601.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11606.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
將行政部門跟將所有的產業鏈全部串聯在一起那我方怎麼應對我們還各自為政我們都知道世界各國歐盟怎麼做美國怎麼做請問我們國安局怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11621.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11621.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
您要把這個情節轉達給高層 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11642.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11642.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11673.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11675.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
主席早有請局長請蔡局長好謝謝主席林委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11699.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11703.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
早安 局長早今天談論的主題確實是真的是有點專業但確實對台灣防衛體系中相當重要的一環那無論平時還是暫時確實都跟全體的軍民士氣都是有很大的關係首先我想要請教局長很多民眾有可能有一些疑問那就是關鍵基礎設施的韌性重點在防護還有安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11724.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11732.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
在這個大主題之下,行政院設有國土安全辦公室,由副院長擔任召集人。那請問,國安局在這之中的角色是什麼?主從的關係是什麼?又有什麼具體的成效?好,跟委員報告一下,剛在說明報告有提到這一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11742.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11765.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
也就是說行政院他有針對國土安全有成立相關的一個政策會報那政策會報的機制國安局是成員可以參加這個政策會報相關跨部會的討論那另外呢行政院也有依照國土安全防護的需要來成立相關的一個所謂的指導的綱要指導綱要後面也還有一個專案小組那國安局也是專案小組的成員 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11766.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11776.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那另外行政院針對國土關鍵基礎設施的防護也有成立相關的情報通報的一個網絡那國安局因為是國家情報主管機關在這部分我們也發揮我們的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11779.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11805.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
最近這幾年國際局勢其實變化速度是比以前還快所以也陸續出現很多很難預測的黑天鵝事件影響著國際局勢的走向譬如說美國退出了TPP還有新冠肺炎疫情還有極端氣候的變遷問題俄烏戰爭甚至到以哈戰爭還有以色列伊朗之間的軍事衝突但是這些事件發生在事前根本是沒有辦法預料到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11805.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11809.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
台灣也深受了這些事件的影響那請問局長你對這些國際黑天鵝事件是否產生重大影響對台灣來說這樣的看法為何呢對,委員剛剛所提到的這些都是非常重要的國際情勢的發展那就國安跟情報作業的角度來講怎麼樣來機先預警確實是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11827.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11848.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那你要能夠達到基先預警第一個就必須要掌握到整體發展的脈動跟趨勢那要達到這樣的目的我們跟國際有盟在情報安全的合作也就變得非常的重要那這也是為什麼我們在過去這段時間積極的來加強跟各個國家在這一方面共同關鍵議題的情資的交換來提升我們自己本身的一個能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11851.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11867.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
國際局勢大家也知道嘛演變得非常快速那新型態的威脅其實也是不斷的出現尤其是看到中共解放軍近幾年在台海和東亞區域的動作頻繁所以其實確實他們不斷的利用包含了灰色地帶的作戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11867.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11881.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
在內的各種超軍事的行動企圖達到脅迫性的合同的目的那請教一下就是國安局統籌的國土安全政策匯報每年召開一次的定期會議但台灣面對這些威脅性的形態的變化卻那麼快速那每年一次的定期會議恐怕會來不及應付這些威脅那是否可以考慮改成每半年呢還是每一季呢這樣的會議呢才能應付這種臨時的威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11896.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11918.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
兩個部分的補充說明就行政院的相關的政策會報是由行政院來召集由行政院的副院長來擔任召集人那他等於比較像是一個副首長層級的一個工作協調會一個協調會報政策協調會報但是他雖然是每年召開一次在每年召開一次以外還有很多工作層級的會議不斷的在召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11920.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11931.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
所以不是只有一年開一次會我的意思是一年開一次會是針對政策面向由副首長來討論但是針對工作計畫面向不斷的在召開會議來進行跨部會的溝通跟協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11934.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11939.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那我接下來就是還有一個問題就是針對無人機威脅問題想要來跟局長討論一下你還記得幾個月前彈簧刀的無人機其實鬼出神出鬼沒的嘛又很難防禦啊讓他在俄烏戰爭中一戰成名但因此獲得台灣軍方的高度的重視然後中科院甚至也研發出台灣版的彈簧刀但不知道局長有沒有發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11959.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11972.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
最近這些無人機,台灣大無人機其實討論已經消失了反而是東歐戰場上外流出來的相關影片又回到雙方大量運用的小型商用無人機進行攻擊那請問局長你知道嗎?對,這確實是要注意的一個發展的趨勢那我們在談關鍵基礎設施的防護那怎麼樣對於可能的威脅來源不同的樣態要能夠事先的來掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11985.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12008.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
就無人機的部分來講因為它現在的技術已經越來越擴散了很多國家或非國家的行為者或組織也都擁有這種無人機的技術可以來發動攻擊所以可能我們未來在評估國家的關鍵基礎設施防護過程當中怎麼樣來面對空中的這種可能的威脅加強對於空中的防護會變得非常的重要而這個議題的層級已經不單單是所謂的關鍵基礎設施的防護了 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12012.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12013.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
其實剛才討論的是商用無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12029.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12040.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
其實它是比較便宜又比較快速大量製造所以其實消耗補充非常的容易而且也是非常好的改裝所以一般的民眾其實就可以進行這種飛行的訓練短時間內都可以投入前線使用甚至可以同時用大量便宜的無人機對高價值目標發出了風群攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12049.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12070.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
因為到現在二屋戰爭雙方來講都還沒有一種有效的防疫的手段所以因為商用無人機有幾個特性無論是定翼機或是旋翼機還有很多多軸穿越機其實只要有對機電相關知識要如何改裝其實不是很難的但是台灣內部如果有新的人士他們想要決定對台灣關鍵基礎設施展開攻擊的話其實也是很難防禦 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12076.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12081.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以其實這些面對的小型無人機出現一定會有事前難以偵測還有事發難以察覺意圖還有事後又難以追查來源這三大反制困難所以想請問局長就是我問目前對無人機有沒有關鍵基礎設施這些威脅有哪一些我們是偵測和反制的手段呢可以簡單說明對這些行政院應該有在做相關的評估那但就商用無人機來講就我們國安單位國安局來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12106.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12132.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那在我們的特勤維安常常要面對這樣的問題包括國家的重大慶典比如說520的重大總統就職我們都部署可能的無人機攻擊針對商用無人機來講我們透過一般的干擾反制槍是可以來處理的因為它的無人機的遙控的頻率頻寬是固定的所以我們就要鎖定相關的頻寬在無人機可能來襲的方向做好部署的話要遇擊落或反制迫降這都沒有技術上的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12132.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12133.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
對,因為其實我最近有注意到一個實際的案例,來印證我剛才的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12152.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12165.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
就是去年5月有兩架無人機在莫斯科的克林姆林宮上面爆炸雖然沒有對建築造成嚴重的損害但是攻擊的畫面傳到全世界之後不僅成功的激勵民主陣營 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12168.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12194.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
傳到整個世界的時候其實成功的激勵民主陣營對烏克蘭的信心也對莫斯科的民眾其實大家都是陷入恐慌的局面這兩架無人機其實利用難以偵測的特性躲過俄羅斯層層的防空系統的搜索成功鑽進了俄羅斯的政治的核心所以其實這個無人機的意圖攻擊之後烏克蘭也不承認是他們主動攻擊還是俄羅斯也拿不出證據來 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12196.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12199.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
所以這樣就突然我們想到說那我們來換一個場景我們來想看看請問如果今天潛伏在台灣的第五縱隊在陳平的時期自己改造了大疆無人機那裝個小型的爆炸物然後直接飛到總統府的上方在國旗旁邊引爆那請問局長我們目前有沒有辦法及早預警還有有沒有辦法判斷意圖還有沒有辦法做到即時反應還是解決這些威脅呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12224.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12249.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這沒有問題這也是我剛剛為什麼在舉例的時候特別提到我們的特勤維安那包括博愛特區的重點區域我們都有部署無人機的反制的裝置那特別是在重大的國家慶典我剛剛會特別提到重大國家慶典是因為現場可能會有匯集數萬人人在那現場所以怎麼樣來避免來自於空中無人機的攻擊我們都有重重部署包括各個的制高點一有無人機接觸的話絕對可以把它擊落 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12250.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12252.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
最後本席再想跟局長討論一下台灣目前有針對電磁脈衝攻擊的防護的問題以軍方來說國防部其實早就已經意識到電磁脈衝的威脅2000年初就已經執行了脈護計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12273.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12280.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那針對目前來看臺灣的公部門其實很大部分的關鍵基礎設施對於電磁脈衝防護和復原其實都是缺乏應對措施的其實這是一個非常危險的一件事情2019年美國國會公布了一個電磁脈衝核彈攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12291.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12295.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
方案暨聯合軍種網路站報告：裡面就有警告中共會在台海戰爭的中間使用電磁脈衝武器讓台灣全島都陷入黑暗那想要請問局長就是說我們目前有沒有針對電磁脈衝向所有的政府部門還有民間企業說明潛在的風險還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12313.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12334.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
到目前為止除了國軍之外政府單位針對電磁脈衝攻擊做了哪些防護的措施?國安演練又做了哪些內容?因為這個我們辦公室好像都找不到這些相關的內容對他這部分比較像是剛剛也跟委員提到了像是一個國防層面的一個應處的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12335.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12360.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
對於比較殺傷力大的攻擊武器不管是電磁脈衝還是委員剛剛在投影片也稍微提到的石墨彈那他們所造成我們的通訊裝備的傷害會非常非常的大所以對於這樣的一個發展的趨勢我們會在內部的討論來多多的注意那也要結合到跟國防部之間的合作我們剛剛在書面報告也提到了關鍵基礎設施的防護必須要有平時跟暫時緊密的一個結合 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12362.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12379.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那緊密結合過程當中各種的可能的劇本都有可能發生怎麼樣來針對不同的劇本來做一些想定來加強各部門之間的通力合作包括國防部門政府還有民間的合作會非常非常重要也謝謝委員提醒這麼重要的問題謝謝局長謝謝謝謝林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12389.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12401.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
請鄭正前委員、鄭正前、鄭正前委員不在請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在請何新淳、何新淳、何新淳委員不在請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在請羅志強、羅志強、羅志強委員不在請游浩、游浩、游浩委員不在請賴士寶、賴士寶、賴士寶委員不在請鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12413.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12441.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃仁委員、邱志偉委員、羅志強委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料則亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供委員另約定期限則從期鎖定 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12443.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12446.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
本日會議到此結束 散會謝謝大家 |